I’m Osbert Lancaster, and at Thrivable Scotland I’m asking how can we build resilience, regenerate natural systems and heal society, so people and the rest of nature can thrive, whatever the polycrisis brings next.

If we’re going to regenerate nature, we need to know what state nature’s in right now and whether it’s getting better or not. While remote sensing is really powerful in many situations, sometimes you need to be hands on, on the ground or even in the water.

So I met up with Rebecca Lewis who has built up a citizen science network that is generating open access data about the health of rivers across Scotland and heard how this data is starting to improve water quality and biodiversity at scale.

From my conversation with Rebecca Lewis you will:

• Hear how Rebecca started volunteering in her local river and went on to leading a network of trained, volunteer citizen scientists who monitor the health of rivers at sites across Scotland.
• Learn how the data is collected, and how the project engages with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and is helping form catchment partnerships.
• Gain practical advice from Rebecca’s experience if you’re considering developing a citizen science project.

In the second segment of the show, I’m joined by co-host Morag Watson, climate and energy policy specialist, and guest listener Nadine Andrews, systems thinking and nature connection practitioner, to discuss my conversation with Rebecca. Our reflections include:

• The power of making the hidden world visible for engaging people with nature.
• How becoming more aware of the state of nature can lead to a sense of powerlessness.
• The importance of such projects offering a genuine sense of agency, where people can see that their actions are having a meaningful effect.

Connect:

• Guest: Rebecca Lewis, Scotland & Northern Ireland Manager, Buglife
• Guest Listener: Nadine Andrews
• Co-host: Morag Watson
• Host, me Osbert Lancaster

Learn More:

• Buglife
• Guardians of Our Rivers Project
• Scottish Environment Protection Agency
• Climate Psychology Alliance

From the Thrivable Scotland Bookshop:

• Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac (source of the "world of wounds" quote)

Be part of the Thrivable Scotland community:

• Subscribe to my Notes for a Thrivable Scotland
• Join our upcoming events
• Email me with questions or comments: [email protected]

I had someone who just felt that their river was dead.

2

So we got the tray out and put the

sample in, and he was just like,

3

oh, it's not dead Uhhuh, it's alive.

4

And this person picked up several

monitoring sites, really drove action.

5

Simply raising the voice of your

river can cause other attention to be

6

brought to it, it's creating a new

foundation , a new voice for your river.

7

When we started volunteering,

there wasn't a lot of focus.

8

And now we have the formation

of a catchment partnership.

9

I don't feel it's any

longer just citizen science.

10

I think it's a really, really

important step for us to

11

help address the dual crisis.

12

Osbert Lancaster: Hello, I'm Osbert

Lancaster, I've been working in

13

sustainability for 30 years or so, and

the fairer world where we live with an

14

ecological limits hasn't really happened.

15

In fact, while there's been some

great stuff going on, on the

16

whole, things look pretty scary.

17

So at Thrivable Scotland, I'm asking how

we can build resilience , regenerate

18

natural systems and heal society so that

people and the rest of nature can thrive

19

whatever the polycrisis brings next.

20

If we're gonna regenerate nature, we need

to know what state nature's in right now

21

and whether it's getting better or not.

22

While remote sensing is really

powerful in many situations, sometimes

23

you just need to be hands-on, on

the ground, or even in the water.

24

So I met up with Rebecca Lewis, who

has built up Guardians Of Our Rivers,

25

a network of trained volunteer citizen

scientists who monitor the health

26

of rivers at sites across Scotland.

27

And what I think is really exciting

is that the data they're gathering

28

is starting to drive action that

has the potential to improve water

29

quality and biodiversity at scale.

30

Later I met with my co-host,

Morag Watson and guest listener

31

Nadine Andrews to reflect on my

conversation with Rebecca and draw

32

out some key insights and lessons.

33

Rebecca Lewis is Scotland and Northern

Ireland manager at Bug Life, and

34

is undertaking a PhD in freshwater

ecology at the University of St.

35

Andrews.

36

I went for a walk with

Rebecca along the River Esk at

37

Newbattle Abbey in Midlothian.

38

As you'll hear, Newbattle Abbey

is where the story started.

39

Rebecca: Well maybe start with,

this spot as we're standing on the

40

bridge looking out onto the river.

41

So I've been working in ecology for the

last, oof, it's getting on 30 years now.

42

And, I, traveled a lot, lived

abroad worked overseas, came back

43

home, had my children, and moved

to Midlothian where we are now and.

44

Okay, what now?

45

I would see being an ecologist

as, more of a calling than a job.

46

Osbert: Yep.

47

Rebecca: And so, I was really keen to get

back to work and, find that happy spot

48

between work life balance and being a mom.

49

And I started volunteering

here at the Abbey.

50

a spot came up working actually in the

Woodlands, and there was a bunch of us got

51

together and it was great, where clearing

out invasive species and, normal getting

52

involved with whatever they needed.

53

And then this training opportunity came

up and I think, monitoring your river,

54

I thought, well, that sounds good.

55

give that a shot.

56

And there was 12 of us, we all huddled

together in the gatehouse, which is

57

just when we came in the entry there.

58

And there's a spot that we're

looking just down by the river

59

that, we learned to do the surveys.

60

And, yeah.

61

So we.

62

I sat through a, a training session

inside and heard all about rivers

63

in Scotland and monitoring and

what matters and what's important.

64

And then they started to

talk about the invertebrates.

65

And so we got to go in, get

the wellies on, and get the

66

nets and pile in the river.

67

Wasn't quite as cold as it is today.

68

And, yeah, started bringing out these

invertebrates and I've worked with some

69

of the most iconic species in the world.

70

your, your Kiwis and your blue ducks in

New Zealand, and that was an easy sell.

71

And so we got these invertebrates out

and I thought, okay, wait a minute.

72

And just absolutely fascinated the

whole process of, there is nothing and

73

there's still nothing to this day, like

standing in a river, the world is a

74

noisy place and when you're standing

there, it just shuts it all out.

75

That process and then meeting

these invertebrates that just

76

appeared from this river,

77

Osbert: this little scoop net or little

78

Rebecca: Yeah.

79

Hand net.

80

Yeah.

81

So it's the same equipment that

the environment agency use.

82

Right.

83

You standard net, standard

bucket, and, yeah.

84

So we, we brought them out, put

them in the tray, and, John Clayton

85

was our trainer at the time.

86

And he's talking about

the functions of them.

87

And I thought, gosh, I've

got it wrong to this point.

88

I should have been in rivers stunning

invertebrates because they are

89

key, And, so we had a small group.

90

Now these things go, everyone's gung ho.

91

Yeah.

92

And then few them disappear and, so we

were gonna take on the river, the Lothian

93

Esk and, and, start monitoring it.

94

And you quite quickly realize that

now there's three of you Yeah.

95

Going take on the whole Midlothian

Esk and, so I thought, okay, how

96

are we gonna make this sustainable?

97

So I decided to get myself

trained as a trainer.

98

Osbert: Right.

99

Rebecca: There was only one trainer

or a couple in Scotland at the time.

100

And so, and that was my next step

and six years on still volunteering

101

and we've got 16 monitoring sites

and over 55 people trained and

102

Osbert: and it all

started here, suppose and

103

Rebecca: it all started

104

Osbert: as you were saying that I

was like, know, looking at the river.

105

I was thinking, I spend quite a

lot of time around rivers walking

106

up

107

Osbert: the Esk in Musselburgh, the,

the burn in a local park and stuff.

108

I guess they must have invertebrates

in them, but I've never seen them.

109

Invertebrates don't really

figure, unless you really go,

110

actually go out and look for them,

111

Rebecca: it's a hidden world, isn't it?

112

we've all had our interaction with

watercourse, be it, kind of raft races.

113

Yeah.

114

Or, or swimming or dipping our toes

in or rescuing our dog from it.

115

Yeah.

116

whatever it is.

117

And invertebrates in

general, people in Scotland.

118

So you think about Midges.

119

Osbert: Yeah.

120

Rebecca: Or you thinking about

butterflies or bees because you

121

can see them flying around and

122

We have that physical interaction.

123

Let's, let's continue.

124

Move away along the river bank.

125

So you asked at the beginning, so,

introduce myself and I introduced to

126

the river first as Absolutely right.

127

Yep.

128

but I am the Scotland Northern

Ireland manager for Buglife.

129

Right.

130

So we are an organization that

works across the UK and overseas.

131

in Scotland we have a

team of about 12 people.

132

Osbert: Yep.

133

Rebecca: So we work across

Peatland restoration.

134

We work on improving habitats for

pollinators and a, a project called

135

the Beelines and we do species

recovery projects, but we also work

136

quite extensively with fresh water.

137

So to fill in the gap a little, so

I told you the story of my Yeah.

138

Kind of connection

with, monitoring Rivers.

139

So I got the job at Buglife and I

said, oh, I do this fantastic work.

140

And the director knew all about

the sort of river fly monitoring.

141

And after lots of conversation and the

first year into getting to know Buglife,

142

I said, let's do more in Scotland.

143

Can we get some funding

to build, build on this?

144

So we did.

145

And we started what we called

Guardians of Our Rivers.

146

And so we'd been training

exactly the same process.

147

I went through as a volunteer, been

training more people, right the

148

length and breadth of Scotland to

get out, and understand more about

149

and monitor their rivers, their spot.

150

Osbert: Brilliant.

151

Really , looking forward to that,

getting into that volunteering and

152

training and monitoring process that

sort of whole civil citizen science bit.

153

But before we do that, why do the

invertebrates in rivers like this

154

matter before we get into, well,

why should we monitor them and,

155

Rebecca: well, they perform loads

of really important and, and hidden

156

roles in our, in our water courses.

157

So they help purify the water.

158

If you think of a classic, would be

our, our freshwater pearl mussel.

159

that's undergone massive

declines in Scotland, but they,

160

they're filtering the water.

161

But all our other kinda invertebrates

that we pick up through the river fly

162

surveys we have, our burrowing may fly.

163

So if you think about the worms in

your garden, know they're good for soil

164

health, well, you've got things may

fly, for example, that's borrowing into

165

the, the sediments in the, in the river,

166

Osbert: right?

167

Yeah.

168

Rebecca: Performing a similar

role, but you've also got, they've

169

got amazing kind of adaptations

and morphology invertebrates.

170

So you've got some with sort of our,

black fly larvae for example, that's,

171

that sits and it, it's got a sucker on

its bum and it, it's got a fan's mouth and

172

it sifts the water uhhuh, it's grabbing

all these particles, but it's also got,

173

see if you look along the riverbanks,

you can see the trees we see today.

174

So the leaves are dropping in the water,

and then you've got your shredders, the

175

invertebrates that are shredding up these

leaves, so they're recycling and filtering

176

and, creating habitat within the river.

177

But they're also providing a food source.

178

So if we, the river's in spate today,

so you can't really see the bottom, but

179

Osbert: Yep.

180

Rebecca: We know we've got

fish that are in there that

181

are feeding on invertebrates.

182

You might see your dippers

183

Osbert: Yep.

184

Rebecca: Along the bank and your

kingfisher if you're really lucky.

185

Osbert: Yep.

186

I've always been wanting to see

a kingfisher in our local burn.

187

There are some, but I've never,

never quite ever seen one yet.

188

Rebecca: We have a local pair,

Uhhuh, they often see if you stand

189

on the bridge we've come from Right.

190

They'll be flying under the bridge.

191

But your dippers especially Yeah,

you'll see them often with a,

192

a beak full of invertebrates.

193

Osbert: Brown, brown, brown

things boing up and down, isn't

194

Rebecca: it?

195

Yeah.

196

With a white, white chest.

197

Yeah.

198

Yeah.

199

So they're really, really important.

200

And keeping our river, mighty

rivers, small rivers, our streams

201

and burns all functioning.

202

Osbert: Again, it's like a embarrassed

to confess my ignorance, but I'm sort

203

of thinking you think about sort of

monitoring and a lot of that is about

204

like the indicator species for the

health of an ecosystem or whatever.

205

But 'cause it's all underwater

and 'cause it's so invisible.

206

You, I know there's fish.

207

I, I know there's fish in there.

208

it's like that's a good thing.

209

And then obviously there must be

cycles of life going on, but it's not

210

visible in the way that some, birds

and plants on land are, it's like,

211

it's so easily hidden away from us.

212

We don't really realize it unless we take

the time to study it and pay attention.

213

Or perhaps if we're fishing or

whatever, we're actually interacting

214

with the water, river actively,

215

Rebecca: As you, you just pointed

out, it's our, our interaction.

216

there's a, a huge army of bird

watchers who are interested in, in

217

following them, but I think that's

what we're trying to introduce here.

218

invertebrates, classically get a hard

time, they're the scary things or the

219

bity things, or the poisonous things.

220

So it's

221

I guess putting a lens on them.

222

Yeah.

223

Helping people understand.

224

I mean, they're telling us

they are our indicators.

225

You just mentioned that a while ago.

226

They tell us what's going on.

227

So the group that we monitor through River

Fly and the Guardians of the River Project

228

in Scotland, they've got eight groups.

229

And they all have, a

demand for good conditions.

230

So they need good levels of oxygen,

they need low levels of nutrients.

231

So their presence and abundance can tell

us that about the health of our river.

232

Osbert: Yeah.

233

Rebecca: So, and they can give us

a picture of, of what's going on.

234

Yeah.

235

So they're useful to us

236

Osbert: Yeah.

237

Rebecca: In many ways.

238

Osbert: I'm also thinking, I

remember, speaking to someone , they

239

were remembering back in the day

when there was, much more industry

240

on the river, the paper mills, and

then further down by Musselburgh

241

there was carpet mills and so on.

242

And he remember him talking about

like being in Dalkeith, and you

243

could tell what color paper the

paper mills have been making recently

244

because of the color of the river.

245

And it's like, they've probably come a

long way from that, but there's probably

246

other challenges now facing these, beetles

and other invertebrates down there.

247

Rebecca: No, absolutely.

248

I was in a site down at Penicuik and you

know what's nice about these surveys is

249

often we're down the riverbank and people

pass by and they share their stories.

250

Yep.

251

We bring in such a huge amount of

knowledge and information from that and

252

he was saying, oh, I remember the days.

253

and I think, there's so many

toxic chemicals that they use

254

through that, the processing that

would end up in the river and.

255

I think we've, we have learned

a lot and thank goodness and our

256

rivers, people say to me, but, our

rivers are in better condition.

257

Well, I'd hope so.

258

Yeah.

259

They're not pink and

blue and purple anymore.

260

Yeah.

261

but we've got the kind of

hidden things now as well as

262

the ones that we know about.

263

Yes.

264

Our combined sewage outlets, and we're

hearing a lot about sewage pollution.

265

Yep.

266

Recently.

267

But we've got agricultural pollution,

but the lesser known ones about

268

this sort of, looking at the dog

you brought along with you today.

269

Yes.

270

our, our pet, flea treatments

that we put on our pets.

271

Osbert: Yep.

272

Rebecca: we've, we've

got a road run off, Yeah.

273

Particulate matter from our tires.

274

I tend to, when I talk about the

chemicals, I tend to say, everything

275

tends to lead to the river.

276

We had an incident.

277

Was it last year where, our local

social media sites, someone had

278

put saying The river's gone White.

279

Oh my goodness.

280

The river's gone white.

281

And as it, as it transpired,

someone had poured a tin of paint

282

down the drain in our street.

283

and I think it's that a bit of

a lack of understanding as well.

284

But yeah, we've, we've got many more

pressures and of course you add in an

285

increase in chemicals into the rivers.

286

Nutrients into the rivers, and on

top of that you add temperature.

287

Osbert: Yeah.

288

Rebecca: And it exacerbates the situation.

289

And,

290

we've got a whole host of different

invertebrates in our watercourse and

291

they've got different demands for oxygen.

292

And if you add all these

chemicals plus heat, end up with.

293

a reduction in oxygen

and you have a problem.

294

Citizen science for me as a,

as a scientist, I've currently

295

delved back into science, doing

my PhD in at University of St.

296

Andrews and looking at questions

around citizen science as well.

297

I think

298

citizen science has been more of

a, I dunno, how would I put it?

299

Shoulder shrugging moment of

"Oh, just citizen science".

300

I don't feel it's any

longer just citizen science.

301

I think it's a really, really

important step for us to

302

help address the dual crisis,

303

Osbert: where do you think that's,

it's just citizen science bit comes

304

from, I mean, and who's, who's

doing that shoulder shrugging about

305

citizen science or who was doing it?

306

Rebecca: I, I think it's changed.

307

I think attitudes of change.

308

I think people are

realizing the importance.

309

I mean, the only way that we

can make a change is to have

310

large scale behavioral change.

311

In order to do that, we have to get more

people involved in order to do that.

312

Citizen science, it's providing

a really, really good vehicle.

313

And we've got, our environment agencies,

for example, our environment agency

314

monitoring our rivers, they've only got

a certain amount of funding and capacity

315

and we've, we've got, thousands of

kilometers of rivers across Scotland.

316

So you add in citizen scientists

working in their local communities

317

like we are on the Lothian Esk

318

With, the 15 monitoring sites and

another 52 volunteers, you've suddenly

319

got a lot more data coming in.

320

Osbert: Yeah.

321

So I'm just picking up those were there

two different related strands there?

322

One is that we need the data so that

we can monitor and we can do our

323

modeling and planning or whatever it is.

324

We need the data and.

325

With citizen sciences, citizen scientists.

326

Indeed.

327

We can get more data.

328

But there's, was I picking up a hint?

329

There's also something about that

involvement for the citizen scientists

330

themselves and a sort of a wider, a wider

engagement beyond just the use, the use

331

of the data that they, they generate.

332

Rebecca: Yeah.

333

Yeah.

334

I mean, you're right there.

335

I think it's very hard to write

about citizen science without

336

disappearing off one of these pathways.

337

So we, we kinda want to get the data

and we have to manage our expectations.

338

It's not going to be scientific

data, if you like it, it's citizen

339

science, it's community data.

340

So it comes with all sorts of

different accuracies around

341

it that you try to control.

342

by making sure you standardize what you

do, which is a lot of what's involved in.

343

There's citizen science for guardians.

344

There's a lot of verification.

345

A lot of checking.

346

Yeah.

347

And a lot of training.

348

When you go out to citizen science,

you're bringing in a wide range of people

349

with different backgrounds and different

knowledge and different understanding,

350

and that enriches your project.

351

But there's also that engagement side,

bringing people out into their environment

352

working with them to share, learning

and increase general understanding.

353

And once you understand something better,

often you are able to look after it

354

better or you understand more about

what makes it function and you maybe

355

won't tip your paint down the drain.

356

Yeah.

357

In your straight.

358

But there's also that lovely side

of, mental health and wellbeing.

359

Osbert: Yeah.

360

Rebecca: How the environment

can work to support you and

361

understanding that side as well.

362

. I don't think our group talk

about inverts much anymore.

363

We talk about our lives

and what we're doing.

364

We've got to know each other.

365

Uhhuh, it's a support network and

it's mental health and wellbeing.

366

I think what's good and what's

particularly good about this

367

program is the data goes

into an open source database.

368

You can go onto this database,

you can download the data.

369

Yeah.

370

You can do your own presentations and

graphs and, and show your local community.

371

And it's, it is generally

more open and accessible.

372

Osbert: Yeah.

373

And what is it that has enabled , this

growth of this whole network of.

374

Citizen scientists gathering this

data across Scotland from that group

375

of 12, many of whom drifted away.

376

What's enabled that to happen?

377

Why has it worked?

378

Rebecca: I think there's lots of reasons.

379

The River Fly Partnership.

380

They got together, I think it must

be coming up for about 20 years.

381

Yep.

382

And Buglife are one of the, the

founding members of that organization.

383

And they've been doing really,

really well, still going as a citizen

384

science project across the uk.

385

And there was attempts to, build

it in Scotland previously.

386

And, the Clyde River Foundation had a

successful project on the Clyde, but as,

387

as with anything else when the funding

dries up, it, it's, it often collapses.

388

And before I started looking at

building it again in Scotland I

389

phoned around many of the groups

and I, I had a chat with them.

390

I said, well, you were,

you were going great guns.

391

What happened?

392

He goes, well, I just didn't feel

there was enough local support.

393

And I think that's quite key.

394

So we, we spent a lot of time

sort of thinking about the

395

project and, and building up.

396

And it, it helped also that there was

a lot of information on the news about

397

sewage in rivers And quality of rivers.

398

So yeah, we, we put out.

399

An advertisement for the project and

through our social media at, uh, Buglife.

400

And the interest just started pouring in.

401

We never really had to push hard

to get people to, to come along.

402

I had funding in the first year, to

train up 15 groups over two years.

403

Osbert: Yep.

404

Rebecca: And then the first

year I trained up 28 groups.

405

Osbert: Wow.

406

Rebecca: And yes, I was very tired.

407

Osbert: Yeah, I bet.

408

Rebecca: But it was absolutely

inspiring, just the, the amount

409

of people and interest and, they

have to sit through three hours,

410

three hours of theory, training.

411

Osbert: Wow.

412

Rebecca: And then we meet on

site at their river and they do

413

another three hours of practical.

414

Right.

415

Osbert: And the three

hours of theory is that.

416

Like on a computer by themselves?

417

Or are they, or the phone, whatever.

418

Are they in a, in a, like a training room?

419

Rebecca: One of the things that we

were really keen on was to making

420

sure that we got people together.

421

Osbert: I was

422

Rebecca: wondering about that.

423

Yeah.

424

The citizen science.

425

So we get them together online.

426

Osbert: Yep.

427

Rebecca: And we, we know, we spend a bit

of time making sure everyone can introduce

428

themselves and, have breaks for questions

where I can kind share information.

429

And, and then the, the practical

session of course, is that,

430

important face-to-face.

431

Yeah.

432

But it's face-to-face at the

site that they want to monitor.

433

Osbert: Ah-huh.

434

Rebecca: And as part of this

as well, we supply the kit.

435

Osbert: Yeah.

436

Rebecca: because we were trying to remove

barriers for people getting involved.

437

Osbert: Yes.

438

Rebecca: And I think yeah, providing

that kit allowed them just to get the

439

training and then get up and running.

440

I think as well, one of the other things

that came up was people felt that they

441

were trained and then that was it.

442

So as part of what we were doing, we

wanted to have refresher sessions.

443

So we would just revisit

them the following year.

444

Yep.

445

And say, okay, how's it going?

446

Let's go and do a survey together.

447

Let's have a look at any

questions or any identification

448

or what have you been finding?

449

Osbert: Yeah.

450

Rebecca: Anything new and

interesting that you want to talk

451

about, or any developments with

your site, so just that chance to

452

refresh.

453

Osbert: To what extent do the

volunteers get the chance to sort

454

of see the, the impact of, well,

how their knowledge is being used

455

and what's being learned from that

456

Rebecca: what does it mean?

457

Osbert: Yeah.

458

Rebecca: Yes.

459

Osbert: And does someone care

460

Rebecca: So I think starting at the theory

training, I talked about the three hour

461

session, often in the evening with a cup

of tea, we try to give a good background

462

in the summary of our fresh water systems.

463

what happens, how are they

currently monitored, how.

464

Volunteers coming into this program

are filling gaps in knowledge,

465

but also importantly with the data

that they gather, there's what's

466

called a, as a, a trigger level.

467

So every single monitoring

site has a trigger level.

468

So that is the minimal acceptable

conditions for their site.

469

So when they do their survey and they

collect their data they calculate a

470

score and they can see straight away

if that score is below the minimal

471

acceptable conditions for their site.

472

So they've got that kind of, level,

that monitoring level if you like.

473

Osbert: Yeah.

474

Rebecca: And so what we have spent the

last couple of years doing is now talking

475

with our environment agency, what we have

just recently established now is that

476

when the results go below that trigger

level, we work with the environment

477

agency so it flags it up to them.

478

And then they will send out a response

to the group, and that response can

479

be more information about your site.

480

So what some of the groups have been

saying, oh, we never realized we also

481

had mine water pollution coming in, or,

482

Osbert: so they've been, provide

you with more information,

483

Rebecca: provide them

484

Osbert: with more, you're

explaining what's going on.

485

Yeah.

486

Rebecca: Yeah.

487

So to help them understand

more about the pressures.

488

Osbert: Yeah.

489

Just to clarify, environment

agency, you mean?

490

Scottish Environment Protection Agency.

491

Rebecca: Yes.

492

and the next step also is to

have an, an ecologist come out

493

from the environment agency.

494

Yeah.

495

To ground truth, to check the

site And see what's going on.

496

But yeah, that gives that

kind of meaningful follow up.

497

And the groups can then see that we have

some action as a result of their effort.

498

So

499

Osbert: we have, so in, so in terms of

that action, I suppose it's like, , a

500

trigger level which triggers someone

coming out and saying, oh my God,

501

this is bad, isn't, it, is not quite

as satisfying as a trigger level,

502

which then leads to some change, which

allows the thing to come back up again.

503

Is that loop being closed?

504

Rebecca: That's something

that we want to now work on.

505

I think there's a whole bunch of reasons

that people get involved, as I've

506

talked about so far with citizen science

and, but there's also groups that are

507

now seeing the trigger level and the,

the sites are continually triggering.

508

So what we wanna look now

is a trajectory of the data.

509

So is this site continually

triggering and it's getting worse

510

and worse and worse over time?

511

So your score that you're coming

out at the end of your survey

512

is, decreased by another 50%.

513

So we're now working with the Environment

agency to look at the next plan because

514

if you just said, They don't have the

resources or capacity of times to do it.

515

what might be involved is a restoration.

516

Yeah.

517

A re-meandering.

518

Yeah.

519

Or if it's identification

of the sources of pollution,

520

then they can follow that up.

521

Yeah.

522

Through investigation.

523

So there's lots of different pathways from

that, but I think our role now I see with

524

Buglife and with communities is to see

how can we help support the next step.

525

we're not gonna make changes overnight.

526

But it's been a really, really positive

direction that we're heading in, and

527

I think we've opened up this flow of

information from our citizen scientists

528

and from these sites that have

maybe never been directly monitored.

529

So we're learning a whole lot.

530

Building this fantastic database, and

evidence base, which has been used, by

531

researchers, by the environment agencies.

532

It's just this new wealth of information.

533

Osbert: as I'm thinking what's

happening with climate change,

534

what's happening with nature

crisis, things are changing rapidly.

535

We are going to be having to

respond and adapt much more quickly.

536

And I guess the fact that now you have

not just the data, but loops are being

537

put in place so that the communities

can then say, right, let's try and

538

trigger some action, which they might

potentially be involved in making happen,

539

is a huge, a huge shift , to where we

need to get to, to look after our rivers

540

and the, the rest of the ecosystem.

541

Rebecca: I feel now that our rivers have

more of a voice Through this process.

542

And whatever direction that

voice takes, I mean, it can,

543

it can be empowering locally.

544

Yeah.

545

Osbert: Yeah.

546

Rebecca: And I feel like in our,

our local river, when we started

547

volunteering, there wasn't a lot of focus.

548

And now we have the formation

of a catchment partnership.

549

Yeah.

550

So there's all sorts of action happening,

and I think simply raising the voice

551

of your river can cause other attention

to be brought to it for other things

552

will be happened or can be built.

553

It's, it's creating a new foundation, Or

as I said, a new voice for your river.

554

. Osbert: And what's going through

my head with that is this whole

555

movement in many parts of the

world for, the rights of rivers.

556

I've never really thought a great

deal about it, but I think that from

557

what you're saying, once people

are actively engaged in monitoring

558

and understanding and being really

connected with that river.

559

That starts making more sense by

that point, you almost don't

560

need the declaration of the right,

because it's like, let's just do it.

561

Rebecca: I, I think it's, it's

building that understanding.

562

I'll never walk along the bank

of a river again without thinking

563

about it in a different way and

its importance and its function.

564

And how it interacts with the

rest of the environment around it.

565

if you think about, the classic

comparison is with the circulation

566

system in your own body, Yeah.

567

So we, we wouldn't install barriers, we

wouldn't inject poisons because we know

568

that that's gonna have a bad effect.

569

So if we look, if you look at

the map on Scotland of all our

570

rivers, it looks exactly like that.

571

Yeah.

572

It looks like the circulatory

system, and it's beautiful.

573

And, once you develop that

relationship or that association,

574

there's no turning back from that.

575

the, the knowledge is there.

576

And I think about all of the people.

577

We've trained up almost 900 people across

the, the country and all these 900 people.

578

They have their, their children and

their families and the people that

579

they've shared that information to.

580

And that's massive.

581

And that kind of proliferation

of information and that level

582

of understanding, I think

that's a powerful thing.

583

Osbert: Yeah.

584

Rebecca: And if it makes every one

of these people have a slight change

585

in their behavior or attitude towards

the river, there's a lot going on

586

beneath the surface that we didn't know

587

Oh

588

Osbert: nice metaphor.

589

Rebecca: I think one of my favorite, my

favorite, experiences with training was

590

we were, we were working up the rivers

up in Scotland and I did a training

591

session and I I had someone who was quite

unconvinced in any of it, I think, and

592

just felt that their river was dead.

593

Osbert: Why did they turn

up if they felt that?

594

Rebecca: Because it was a fisherman.

595

Osbert: Ah, right,

596

Rebecca: okay.

597

And, cared really, really deeply.

598

And was frustrated, and I got that.

599

And, it was one of these moments we did

the theory and still very, skeptical.

600

And then we went down to the practical

session and the person was there and still

601

very skeptical, but he says, whole fire.

602

So we got the tray out and got the dent,

put the sample in, and he was just like,

603

oh, it's not dead Uhhuh, it's alive.

604

And, and I think it was just,

there's these so many moments when

605

you work in communities and with

citizen scientists that, you learn

606

something amazing or they do.

607

And it's, it, it is still

one of my favorite moments.

608

And from that point, this, this person

picked up several monitoring sites,

609

really drove action on the river.

610

And I thought that's it.

611

You

612

Osbert: know, Uhhuh did, did he bring

more fish, more fishermen with him?

613

Rebecca: Yes.

614

Osbert: Yeah.

615

Interesting.

616

That's like that contagion effect,

617

Rebecca: But there's people

who've just really inspired,

618

inspire me through this process.

619

when you work in this area,

there's such a thing as conserving

620

conservationists, but I have found

that that is a healing spot for me.

621

Yeah.

622

To be out in, in communities and

teaching what I teach because

623

I'm taught just as much back.

624

Osbert: Yeah.

625

Rebecca: And I see, people volunteering

their time 'cause time is the most

626

precious thing you have, but they're

giving this time to this, to the project

627

that we're running and just yeah.

628

Just feeding so much back.

629

Osbert: So if you, were approached

by someone who was looking at setting

630

up a citizen science project in a

different country or monitoring a

631

different environment in Scotland.

632

What would the things you would sort

of say they really need to really think

633

about, really focus on and get right

to give it the best chance of success?

634

Rebecca: I think you have to look

at your life and your situation.

635

You know how many people you have around

you because it's gotta be sustainable.

636

Okay.

637

You can go in and you can do one

survey and never survey again.

638

You've got a snapshot.

639

But in order to see what's going

on and to follow what's going

640

on, it has to be sustainable.

641

can you go out regularly?

642

Is it far from where you are?

643

have you got people that you

can bring into this project and

644

engage with it and support you?

645

What are your questions?

646

What is it you wanna answer?

647

And because there's lots of different

scientific techniques that you

648

can bring in for citizen science.

649

But you've gotta manage your

expectations around that as well.

650

So I think there's lots of

questions with the setup.

651

Osbert: Yeah.

652

Rebecca: And then there's

the practicalities of it.

653

How safe is your site?

654

Can you access in and out?

655

Do you have equipment that you can use?

656

So identifying how it fits in

with your life and getting the

657

community on, on board with it.

658

And then what questions

is it you want to answer.

659

And then you can start to

design from that point.

660

Yeah.

661

I think a lot of the process of, setting

up our project was consideration of these

662

questions and being there to support.

663

Yeah.

664

And I think that's often what's missing.

665

I think, unfortunately, we are a

charity and we want to be able to

666

keep running these projects and

keep, sustainably, but that's often

667

not how the funding is set up.

668

So that's, how many times have we heard

669

Osbert: that?

670

Rebecca: That's a huge problem.

671

I didn't think that would be new to you.

672

Osbert: No, no indeed.

673

Rebecca: And so every year, something like

this project, we want to be supporting.

674

People in the community now we've set up

this massive network for years to come.

675

Yeah.

676

And we hope we will.

677

But that is going to come down

to availability of, of funding.

678

Yeah.

679

And unfortunately, it's perhaps

a little boring, just funding

680

the same thing over and over.

681

And while we grow and we develop

projects naturally, some of you, you

682

actually just need to also support what

is already there and keep it going.

683

Osbert: Yeah.

684

Funders seeking novelty or innovation.

685

Rebecca: Innovation.

686

I mean, innovation is

good and we do innovate.

687

It's an organization, we have

to think on our feet a lot.

688

Osbert: Yeah.

689

But you also need to have

that baseline activity to

690

Rebecca: Yeah.

691

But if you're looking at what does

science need as well as citizen

692

science, it needs that longevity.

693

Osbert: Yeah.

694

Rebecca: and delivering that base,

getting that baseline and seeing what's,

695

pulling out the pictures over time and

finding out what's going on to help you

696

answer the questions of what to do next.

697

Osbert: If I was.

698

A manager or , project manager and

an NGO, and we were looking at some

699

citizen science to do whatever X,

Y, z this project's trying to do.

700

I guess many of what you've, much of

what you've just said would apply,

701

sort of flipping that around to think

about it from the point of view of

702

the people you're trying to engage.

703

In your chat project manager who

said, tell me how to do citizen

704

science for, for my project.

705

What else would you be telling them

or inviting them to think about?

706

Rebecca: Well, that's a big question.

707

Still.

708

I'm still considering that.

709

Yeah.

710

Because every year I learn more.

711

Osbert: Yeah.

712

Rebecca: But yeah, I, I, I think

it's just, it's a lot about managing

713

expectations and making it sustainable.

714

And a lot of people think,

oh, citizen science.

715

Yeah, that's good because

it doesn't cost as much.

716

Mm.

717

It's hugely expensive if you do it

right, Uhhuh not more so than your

718

normal project, but it's certainly

not a less expensive, it's a freebie.

719

It's not a freebie.

720

People that are giving you

their time, and that's precious.

721

So you've got to set yourself up

as an organization to be able to

722

respect that and take care of that.

723

Osbert: Yeah.

724

Rebecca: And make sure that the

support is there to keep it going.

725

But I think as well, what has been really

important for the stage that we're at

726

is working with our environment agency

because you need a pathway for that data.

727

Yeah.

728

We need a pathway for that energy.

729

And yeah, we're just delighted

that we've made we've made progress

730

there and yeah, I'm looking forward

to keeping on developing that

731

and seeing what the next step is.

732

Osbert Lancaster: I found Rebecca's

story fascinating and I can really

733

see how citizen science can move

beyond being just citizen science

734

and have a really important role

in regenerating natural systems.

735

I'm now joined by my co-host, Morag

Watson and guest listener Nadine Andrews.

736

Together we'll reflect on the

conversation you've just heard and

737

try and draw out some insights and

lessons that can be applied in

738

other contexts and other situations.

739

Morag Watson: So I'm Morag Watson,

and my background is in climate

740

change, renewable energy, climate

science, and bringing about political

741

and policy change around those things.

742

Osbert Lancaster: Nadine, would

you like to introduce yourself?

743

Nadine Andrews: I have a very mixed

background , I'm a Mindfulness Nature

744

Connection and Qigong teacher , a

researcher, facilitator of, climate and

745

ecopsychology, and I, I bring systems

thinking to my work and much of what

746

I'm doing fundamentally is about trying

to help people to live in a more

747

harmonious relationship with nature.

748

Osbert Lancaster: So having

listened to my conversation , with

749

Rebecca , what struck you about

what you heard, what she was talking

750

about and the work she was doing?

751

Nadine Andrews: Where I want

to go to first is what she was

752

mentioning about this hidden world.

753

So the question that kind of comes

from the whole conversation really is,

754

what is it that we are attending to?

755

What we're paying attention to is

a really critical question.

756

There are some different theories, around

this, but one is that before attention

757

comes intention, so the intention that

we bring to the way that we pay attention

758

makes the experience really different.

759

Morag Watson: A similar thing

came up for me, but in a

760

slightly different perspective.

761

And it was the, the intangible to

tangible, if you talk about the health of

762

a river, it's a really intangible thing.

763

And from the surface, you'd look

at it, you'd look at the River

764

Esk, it looks fine to most people.

765

And again, just reflecting back

on the work that I've done on, on

766

climate change, where so much of what

you're talking about can't really

767

be seen, it can't really be felt or

touched in any kind of tangible way.

768

So that citizen science programme where

people were really, really engaging

769

with the, the reality of what was there,

as Nadine says in a way that they were

770

revealing the hidden and, and making it

tangible to them, that was one of the

771

things that really jumped out for me.

772

Osbert Lancaster: For me, there was

really something about, the fact that

773

it is invisible to us until we engage

with it, I guess, as Nadine says, and

774

make an intention to engage with it.

775

But I'm thinking about this angler who'd

come along to one of the, one of the

776

workshops and his view was the river was

essentially dead, so what was the point?

777

so even with having some sort of intention

to engage with the river, even engaging

778

with it, he still had this view of

the river as being essentially dead.

779

And it was only when he started getting

his little net out and scooping things

780

up looking at the invertebrate is like

this hidden world becomes revealed.

781

Nadine Andrews: So there was also an

implicit theory of change, that

782

by, things being revealed to people,

people getting involved and then

783

developing their understanding that

that would lead to, , behaviour change.

784

And that's a common

theory of change, I guess.

785

And there was a question which you asked

towards the end which was to do with is,

786

is the results of that citizen science

then leading to restoration activity?

787

And it sounded like that's

one of the, the feedback loops

788

that they're trying to develop.

789

But not having that feedback is

the thing that can then over time

790

affect the way that people view the

activity, , and the emotional experience

791

that, that people have around that.

792

So there was something that she

said about once you develop that

793

relationship or understanding

there's no turning back from that.

794

But of course we know that if people

feel like what they're doing becomes

795

meaningless or has less meaning because

they're not seeing action based on the

796

information and the data that they're

generating, then there can be, in climate

797

psychology, we would refer that to as

kind of difficult emotions, that's where

798

kind of disappointment or, or despair

even or, or anger or all these different

799

kind of emotions can then come in.

800

And we saw that in the climate

assembly that was held in Scotland.

801

I led the research on that and I did some

research specifically into the emotional

802

experience of the assembly members.

803

And whilst at the outset, they were very

similar to the population as a whole

804

in terms of, feelings around hope and

optimism or, or fear and anxiety and

805

worry and, and all the rest of it, they

became much more hopeful and optimistic.

806

which, which we think is to do with

the fact that they had a very strong

807

sense of purpose, and agency in this.

808

And then after ministers had given

their response to their recommendations,

809

the assembly members voiced

quite a lot of disappointment with

810

the response that they had back.

811

And then we found that their emotional

experience was much more similar

812

to, the population as a whole.

813

It had been tempered then by the reality

of a political context, I guess.

814

when I lived in Manchester, I

ran a, a wildlife group in my

815

neighbourhood and we got involved

in lots of citizen science stuff.

816

and at that scale it was

fine for what it was.

817

but I think when there's knowledge

that this data is then going to SEPA

818

and maybe there's an expectation that,

that something is gonna happen with

819

that data, and then maybe nothing

happens with that data, you're relying

820

on people maintaining a certain energy

and passion and enthusiasm and over

821

time, if they're seeing, this trigger

level isn't being addressed, then,

822

that to me , is a big problem really.

823

Osbert Lancaster: I dunno if she's

mentioned the dates in that My impression

824

was that sort of relationship , with

SEPA is relatively recent in terms

825

of a formal relationship anyway.

826

Maybe that's, that's something to

watch for, how does that play out?

827

I noticed also she talked about the

formation of a catchment partnership,

828

I guess there's opportunities there for

work on the ground and in the water to

829

happen, which may not be regulatory, but

there may be other things happening, which

830

maybe would lead to positive action,

which people can feel, can recognise

831

that they've played a part in that.

832

Morag Watson: Yeah, I, I'd moved my

focus somewhat earlier in the process

833

from, from what Nadine was talking about.

834

What really came to me from the, from

the project is how unlikely it was you,

835

would you like to come and stand in

a freezing cold Scottish river with a

836

small net grubbing about, with what many

people would consider creepy crawlies.

837

You, there's no glamour,

you're not being paid.

838

It'll probably be quite cold and wet,

but just listening to the number of

839

people who stepped forward and wanted

to do that and wanted to, to contribute

840

again, just for common good to know, to

be able to see, to have a clean river

841

that's not theirs, it's not personal.

842

If you've taken that prospect to

marketing company and sort of done it in a

843

capitalistic way, do you want to do this?

844

They would've said, nobody

will want to do this.

845

Where, where's the personal benefit in it?

846

So I'm always the eternal optimist so

that people willing to step forward into

847

doing something that's actually quite

hard work and be quite uncomfortable

848

wanting to contribute, but that point

that Nadine made about how do you sustain

849

that interaction and that engagement when

it doesn't feel like it goes anywhere.

850

So yeah, an interesting juxtaposition

between where we often think the

851

problem is, which is get people in and

involved and where the problem actually

852

lies, which is how do you maintain

it and make a, a positive change

853

outta the engagement you've built.

854

Nadine Andrews: There's another

dimension just building on that

855

, to do with Nature Connection.

856

Something that was mentioned here as

well around, health and wellbeing.

857

The other side to Nature Connection

which sometimes gets overlooked is,

858

that connecting with nature also means

connecting with the loss of nature, and

859

the need for then, in any project to

be thinking about how you also support

860

people with their emotional experience.

861

With increased knowledge about what's

happening in the world , including your

862

own local burn or river, you're more

likely to come up with these kind of

863

very powerful emotions, which are then

difficult to be with, 'cause you're

864

noticing the harm that we're, that's

being caused, that we're responsible for.

865

So with the climate assembly we provided

some resources around that and linked

866

in with the Climate Psychology Alliance,

and there were climate cafes that people

867

could come to and things like that.

868

connecting with nature, unfortunately,

in this time of ecological crisis also

869

means connecting with the loss of nature.

870

Osbert Lancaster: Yeah, is it Aldo

Leopold , writing about, the more you

871

understand about ecology, essentially

the more painful it becomes.

872

and especially when everyone else is

oblivious to it, you're , alone in a

873

land of wounds or something he says.

874

And I think, I think

that's really powerful.

875

Nadine Andrews: Yeah, it's, it's great

that you brought that up actually 'cause

876

I I do a lecture every year for, one of

the masters programmes between, Scottish

877

Rural College and Edinburgh Uni and

I introduced that quote and then we

878

analyse it a little bit and, I think

it's, I think it's just so powerful.

879

I've got it here actually.

880

Yes.

881

"One of the penalties of an

ecological education is that one

882

lives alone in a world of wounds".

883

As you said, "much of the damage inflicted

on land is quite invisible to laymen".

884

But the bit of the quote which I'm

interested in is this bit "an ecologist

885

must either harden his shell and

make believe that the consequences

886

of science are none of his business.

887

Or he must be the doctor who sees

the marks of death in a community

888

that believes itself well and does

not want to be told otherwise."

889

And I think that that's

the key thing, isn't it?

890

'cause what he's talking about there, and,

891

, is about the processes of denial and

disavowal, which are totally prevalent.

892

There are times when we don't want

to acknowledge fully everything

893

that's going on because it's

too much, it's too overwhelming.

894

And because of this polycrisis idea,

you, it's not a clean separation between

895

what's happening in Gaza or other parts

of the world with, with climate crisis

896

and, because they're interlinked,

aren't they around who's controlling

897

resources and, and all the rest of it.

898

But our capacity to face that, it's

unimaginable to us to actually

899

be able to fully comprehend.

900

And, and so just giving

people information, we already

901

know that that's not enough.

902

Morag Watson: something I used

to find absolutely infuriating.

903

I started my career working on

environmental education in schools.

904

The disempowering way we used

to give people information.

905

So many primary school children in

Scotland learn about rainforests.

906

Not that rainforests aren't important,

but you know, you're eight years old

907

and you live in rural Aberdeenshire.

908

Why are you telling these children

about the destruction of the rainforest?

909

'cause there's absolutely nothing

that they can do about it.

910

And psychologically, for a lot of people,

the rainforest is like Disneyland.

911

It's this magical, far off place

with all of these fantastical

912

creatures that live in it.

913

And one day, if you're rich enough and

you have the opportunity, you might

914

get to go there on holiday, but it's

not particularly tangible and real.

915

So I was a real advocate for learning

about what was often disparagingly

916

called the little life, the things

that they could engage with directly.

917

how many birds are visiting

the school grounds.

918

what invertebrates can we

find in the school ground?

919

And that much more empowering approach

of, yep, the world is full of big

920

problems, but we can't solve all of them.

921

So let's look at the problems

that are right in front of us

922

that we have some agency in.

923

So, I do it myself still,

despite the fact I work on

924

climate change, a global problem.

925

I watch very carefully do

the birds in my garden.

926

Did they successfully hatch this year?

927

did I see the chicks?

928

Are there four more bluets in the world?

929

how many butterflies were there this year?

930

I've got three red squirrels last year.

931

Last year I had two.

932

So I think there's a real tension

between this building understanding,

933

which is clearly happening in this

project, on something that people have

934

some agency over, albeit by the time

it gets to the Scottish Environment

935

Protection Agency, they have less

agency to make them do something.

936

But there's a a really important aspect

of how we engage with these things

937

that I think often gets forgotten.

938

I worked in the, global environmental

sector, a push for the impressive, the

939

lions and the tigers and the elephants and

the pandas and all of these things, which

940

are big and important and key species.

941

But there's mostly nothing I

can do about elephant poaching.

942

I don't buy ivory.

943

I'm never going to, that's about

the limit of my agency within that,

944

can I put a pond in my garden and

help the wildlife in my garden?

945

Yes, absolutely.

946

I can.

947

Nadine Andrews: Yeah.

948

And, and you're highlighting a

really important thing there,

949

Morag around, the, the specificity.

950

I teach Nature Connection workshops and,

retreats and for me that nature connection

951

isn't this kind of abstract concept.

952

It's about how you're connecting

with a specific place and

953

the beings that live there.

954

and it takes, what I've discovered

from teaching people about how to,

955

how to deepen that connection is

it's a, it's a discipline actually.

956

We have to practise it, and to slow

down as was talked about in the interview

957

and, to have patience and to make

the kind of observations that you're

958

talking about, it comes back to this

thing about what are we attending to,

959

and the intention behind the attention.

960

So the intention of wanting to

develop relationships of care with

961

a place and, and all that lives

there, , means that the way that we

962

are then paying attention has a certain

set of qualities associated with it.

963

What I've discovered is it, it can be

fairly easy for people to do that as,

964

as one-off things or to have a kind

of heightened state of connection as a

965

state, But for that to turn into more

of a trait where it's embedded into

966

people's everyday lives is the bit that

most people struggle with actually.

967

You can have these kind of big

peak experiences when you're out

968

in the middle of nowhere and,

extraordinary sunsets and all the rest.

969

But how, how can you still

feel as connected when you're

970

living in an urban context?

971

And your perception might be

that, that you're not in much

972

nature, but of course you are.

973

It's just this hidden world idea it's

just 'cause we're not attending to it.

974

Osbert Lancaster: Rebecca is talking

about a very specific project, around

975

particular physical locations in

Scotland, and a very particular

976

process around citizen science.

977

One of the things I'm really interested

in is, where things are working

978

well, what could we take from that?

979

And how might they be applied in other

contexts, and in other sort of situations.

980

Morag Watson: This is a drum that I have

banged many times and I'm gonna bang it

981

again, is thing that I really take from

this project is that volunteers are great

982

and you can do a lot with volunteers,

but volunteer labour is not free.

983

It takes a lot of organising, there needs

to be infrastructure around it, there

984

needs to be support for your volunteers.

985

And I think, everyone I know who's ever

worked with volunteers, knows this.

986

People who are setting up projects

who have perhaps never worked with

987

volunteers before, perhaps don't

realise how much work is involved.

988

It's, it's management and organisation as

much it would be as it was paid employees.

989

So that's a really important thing to

take from a project like this of how much

990

you can achieve, but the infrastructure

you need to put in place to achieve it.

991

Osbert Lancaster: Nadine, any,

any reflections from yourself?

992

Nadine Andrews: Yeah, I think the

importance of being mindful that that

993

difficult emotions might be coming

up for people who are doing this

994

kind of citizen science, where you're

looking at ecosystems that are, are,

995

are damaged, and making sure that,

that you're at least signposting

996

people for appropriate support.

997

And in a kind of wider sense,

I guess, the idea of feedback

998

loops and so for, for anything to

self-regulate, it needs feedback.

999

And so the, the data that's being

generated by citizens doing these

00:53:20,969 --> 00:53:23,489

kind of projects is, is, is feedback.

00:53:24,149 --> 00:53:29,089

And so to be really thinking from

the outset about how does that

00:53:29,089 --> 00:53:33,949

information then feed back in, in

order for that system to self-regulate?

00:53:33,954 --> 00:53:38,609

And, and by self-regulation, I

mean that it can actually, be

00:53:38,609 --> 00:53:40,379

functioning in a healthy way.

00:53:40,889 --> 00:53:45,509

so if the data is saying, okay, there's

something which is unhealthy here, and

00:53:45,509 --> 00:53:49,949

less than optimal then to be planning

the project, the thinking about, where

00:53:49,949 --> 00:53:54,029

is that information gonna go and how

is it actually gonna then support

00:53:54,569 --> 00:53:56,869

that ecosystem to be able to regulate?

00:53:57,479 --> 00:54:02,939

Morag Watson: Another thing to really take

away from this, I think is you, if it was

00:54:02,939 --> 00:54:07,649

one individual here or there monitoring

their river and sending the details

00:54:07,649 --> 00:54:11,609

to SEPA, the chances of it leveraging

any change would be quite limited.

00:54:12,089 --> 00:54:17,009

That building of power by the

collective action, multiple groups

00:54:17,069 --> 00:54:21,809

of many individuals involved, all

organised together through a network,

00:54:22,019 --> 00:54:25,769

all producing the data, all pushing

for change because they're seeing

00:54:25,769 --> 00:54:27,839

indicators that things are not right.

00:54:28,359 --> 00:54:30,369

Osbert Lancaster: Any, any

final thoughts before we close?

00:54:31,489 --> 00:54:31,819

Nadine Andrews: Yeah.

00:54:31,819 --> 00:54:35,823

I think Although I've talked about this

idea of self-regulation and feedback

00:54:35,823 --> 00:54:40,138

loops, there's also something which came

through in the interview with Rebecca,

00:54:40,138 --> 00:54:46,588

which is just about the intrinsic value,

just the joy of having encounters with

00:54:46,708 --> 00:54:52,423

non-human, other than human living

beings, on whatever scale they are.

00:54:53,078 --> 00:54:56,568

And that isn't to do with targets

and, and all the rest of it, but

00:54:56,568 --> 00:55:02,884

just appreciating life In this moment

not thinking about, the future,

00:55:02,884 --> 00:55:06,814

but just really appreciating it

right now, in the state that it's

00:55:06,814 --> 00:55:12,714

in, all life is, is trying to live

as best it can, that's something

00:55:12,714 --> 00:55:15,294

to, to not lose sight of as well.

00:55:16,058 --> 00:55:17,018

Speaker 4: And there you have it.

00:55:17,438 --> 00:55:21,338

Thanks to Rebecca Lewis of Buglife,

our guest listener, Nadine Andrews,

00:55:21,668 --> 00:55:23,588

and my co-host Morag Watson.

00:55:23,887 --> 00:55:26,527

Osbert Lancaster: You'll find links

to the people, organisations, and

00:55:26,527 --> 00:55:28,417

resources mentioned in the show notes.

00:55:28,837 --> 00:55:32,107

I'd love to hear your thoughts about what

you've heard or any questions you have.

00:55:32,437 --> 00:55:33,797

Just email [email protected].

00:55:36,937 --> 00:55:40,327

And finally, Thrivable Scotland

is more than just this podcast.

00:55:40,637 --> 00:55:42,227

Check out the website,

Thrivablescotland.com

00:55:43,427 --> 00:55:47,777

for my newsletter and events where you

can meet others, share experience, and

00:55:47,777 --> 00:55:52,097

develop skills to help you and your

colleagues build resilience, regenerate

00:55:52,097 --> 00:55:54,527

natural systems and heal society.

00:55:55,037 --> 00:55:58,127

Let's explore what works in

the poly crisis, together.

00:55:59,137 --> 00:56:05,587

Rebecca: I think sometimes we need to slow

down and reconnect and get back to basics.

00:56:05,647 --> 00:56:11,677

And, we got to not forget that it's

nature that holds us up and supports us.

00:56:11,677 --> 00:56:12,697

It is our foundation.

00:56:12,697 --> 00:56:14,917

So we have to reconnect to that.

00:56:15,327 --> 00:56:19,107

Something that these projects do is we

reconnect to the earth and share our

00:56:19,107 --> 00:56:22,767

stories and our understanding of how it

supports us and how we support each other.