Fresh Expressions are revolutionizing how we think about and do church in the 21st century. In this compelling episode of the Pivot Podcast, hosts Rev. Drs. Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton welcome the Rev. Dr. Eliseo Mejia, a pioneering voice in the Fresh Expressions movement and director of Expressiones Divinas for Fresh Expressions North America.

Eliseo unpacks the concept of Fresh Expressions, sharing inspiring examples like "Churros y Chocolate" gatherings and dinner churches that are reaching people where they are. Discover how these innovative approaches are creating culturally-relevant, intergenerational faith communities that thrive outside traditional church walls. Whether you're new to Fresh Expressions or looking to deepen your understanding, this episode offers practical insights and a hope-filled vision for implementing Fresh Expressions in your own context. Join us as we explore the future of the Church through the lens of Fresh Expressions.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• Fresh Expressions North America: https://freshexpressionsus.org/
• Expressiones Divinas: https://freshexpressionsus.org/expressiones-divinas/
• Feed My Starving Children: https://www.fmsc.org/
• Faith+Lead Fresh Expressions course https://faithlead.org/course-lp/starting-a-fresh-expression-of-church/

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/dLFa-xbfiLQ

Mentioned in this episode:

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Eliseo: There's a lot of loneliness at different levels. And what would it what would that look like in terms of bringing fresh expressions and these to meaningful events? For people to encounter Christ in a unique way that only your church can offer, because you know the context and you know the people, they are there. And perhaps it's not that we're going to be able to erase the loneliness, but maybe there will be this encounter with the Holy Word, with Holy Christ, with the meaning of what it is to be an inherited church, but embracing others who are not able or who have not put a foot at the door in the building.

Terri: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate the changing world. I'm Terri Elton, and I'm joined today with my co-host here, Dwight Zscheile.

Dwight: One of the key pivots that we talk a lot about on this podcast is the need to expand our imagination in the church for the forms of church or Christian community that are needed to reach people in today's world. One size or shape of church isn't enough for the most part. Traditional or inherited Attractional churches are having a very hard time reaching people who aren't already Christian, especially if they focus on worship as the entry point. And that's why we are so excited to have as our guest today, the Reverend Doctor Eliseo Mejia. He is a church planter, educator, author, and trainer who works with fresh expressions in North America as Director of Expressions Divinas and teaches at Asbury Seminary and United Seminary in Dayton, Ohio. Doctor Mejia welcome to the Pivot podcast.

Eliseo: Thank you so much for the invitation. It's so good to see you both and to enjoy this time together and be able to be available for the listeners as we take a deep dive into this conversation.

Terri: Well, let's start with having you tell us a little bit about your journey into ministry and how you landed where you are today.

Eliseo: Well, my commitment to church planting and the development of new faith communities has marked my journey in ministry. I can trace it back all the way to different settings, countries and cultures. And lately, in the last probably 20 years, I was serving as the assistant director of New Church Plant in Kentucky, and I had the privilege of developing, training, recruiting, and equipping church planters to oversee how to how we how are we going to do new faith communities? So my work has always been rooted in creating sacred spaces for what I call intercultural, multicultural and multi-ethnic and cross-generational movements. And over the years, lately, probably the last 6 or 7 years, I've been involved in contextualizing missional coaching movements for cause. I would say post-Covid realities that you and I, we face in the past. And as a coach and director of expression for expressions, our focus has been consistently on building authentic relationships and fostering environments where the Holy Spirit can lead us to new and existing congregations in those vibrant, mission focused communities that we want to reach.

Dwight: So tell us a little bit more about expresiónes divinas or fresh expressions like what are they? For our listeners who might not know that term, and certainly in espanol, in Spanish, you know, how are these taking hold in the Spanish speaking community?

Eliseo: Sure. I think that fresh expressions or expresiones divinas, they're crucial because they provide an innovative way to engage with people where they are, those who may not be connected with what I call inherited church settings. In a sense, fresh expressions or expresiones Divinas offer that what I call the flexibility and the how to contextualize relevant ways to to bring faith, life, discipleship in in locations and places where you probably would least expect it, such as, you know, church at the lake, uh, church of motorcycles, church and on bicycles, oh or what? Some people may not even use the term churches. So let's say a faith community or a group of people who are really enjoying what God has given us as expression of our nature or creation. So we want to meet people where they are and speak the language in which the gospel makes more sense, and whether these expressions happen in coffee shops, parks, online spaces. What we want is to embody the mission of God in a way that is accessible and meaningful to a much larger audience, so we can bring and breathe, bring and breathe new life into the church by embracing creatively how we do this, reaching out.

Terri: So I'm curious how these fresh expressions play with are in the ecology of the inherited church structures. And I wonder if you can give us a story or an example of how you see those working together or playing alongside each other?

Eliseo: Sure. For instance, there's Riverlife Church here in Kentucky. Uh, they began what is called the table. That is the what we call the dinner church setting. And interestingly, though, as I was praying in that particular city, I was praying that God will allow us to begin fresh expressions without without not knowing my neighbors on the other side of my house. They were trained in how to do village church because they were trained, uh, down in Oregon. And so they were praying for this specific expression of River of life congregation. And so they began the table. And my goodness gracious, in less than a year they were running out of space. And now they are in another location, and they have begun in a new city, the same initiative. Now, having said that, the church does not the only way of doing free expressions. There are other things that I just mentioned before, like children's and chocolate, children's and chocolates in Marion, Illinois. If you want me to expand on that, I will tell you what happened there.

Terri: Go for it. Tell us.Churros y

Eliseo: Churros y chocolates is a Mexican expression to say, we want to connect with you where you are. And it is happening in Marion, Illinois. And my good colleague, uh, is is in charge of that Reverend Rocio Williams. And she had this idea that in a sense, you know, when Hispanics or Latinos come to the USA, they long there's this, this sense of longing and the memories of their country where they came from. So we want we want to provide for them a place to belong, a place where they can find a new community. So Rocio came up with the idea of churros, chocolates, because one day she said, I'm feeling the same as everybody else in the community. And so. So she said, what would be the best way to do that? How could I? How could I do life together? How could how can I create community? And so she began with that idea in mind. And many people began to pop over to, you know, come into her house and and they were they were growing so fast that they suddenly they had to have a bigger space. And they went back to their church and churros and chocolates Became one of the ways that they're reaching into the community, and it gave people the opportunity to enjoy life, not probably recreating the past, but a place to to really have fun and and to listen to God's narrative. Um, and how those narratives are connected. Because by the time churros and chocolates began to meet new people in the community, then those relationships or those networks connected with many other spaces back home and other locations in the USA.

Terri: So I'm curious around that example of how this fresh expression emerged out of some longings of inherited cultural, meaningful moments, right? Or cultural elements that provided meaning for their story or for their for a people. right? What I'm curious about, as you look across these fresh expressions, where are those longings or tapping into the spiritual inherited kinds of practices where meaning might be made? Because I think, for example, I'm an ELCA Lutheran. We like to have word and sacrament in a, in a, in a sanctuary, in a church building as the center. And I think our fresh expressions are not starting there, but somehow there's longing to how do we encounter Christ in the meal or in the sacrament of communion? And it kind of is, is a backward design. They back into something as opposed to having that be the front door. I wonder for your expressions, fresh expressions. How are they tapping into those inherited spiritual practices?

Eliseo: You just said it. You just name it precisely. Those two components are key and they will be part of the fresh expressions. We're not, um, we're not creating. We're not reinventing something new. We can create a new sacred space where those elements take place and take meaning where people are. Now, the question to you would be, is the church open to do such an event that is so meaningful in the life of the church, that would they be willing to do that outside of the walls? That would be a key question to answer because we don't you know, we don't want to alienate anybody in the process. But those are key components of what I would say, a new, fresh expressions of your congregation. Does that make sense?

Terri: Yeah. Well, and I like what you're highlighting. I think one of the assumptions that's happened in a lot of inherited churches, at least in the mainline, is that they assume if you're sitting next to each other in the pew, you're cultivating Christian community, or you're tapping into the spiritual longings if you go to a worship service. And what this is doing is saying, no, actually cultivating Christian community and tapping into our spiritual longings. It starts in a very different place and encourages different practices.

Eliseo: Right. And if I if I may add this, what I read as I travel across the USA, I sense that there is a a problem that is everybody is facing and I call it a deep sense of loneliness. There's a lot of loneliness in at different levels. And what would what would that look like in terms of bringing fresh expressions and and at least two meaningful events for people to encounter Christ in a unique way that only your church can offer. Because you know the context and you know the people, they are there. And perhaps it's not that we're going to be able to erase the loneliness, but maybe there will be this encounter with the Holy Word, with Holy Christ, with the meaning of what it is to be an inherited church, but embracing others who are not able or who have not put a foot at the door in the building.

Dwight: So I'm curious just to go back to explore the example that you shared of children and chocolates a little bit more. So. Okay. So what happens when they gather? Like what do they do other than I know there's children present and there's chocolate, but what else? Like, what does it look like?

Eliseo: It's a big fiesta time.

Eliseo: Everybody talks out loud and and they greet one another. They eat, they hug, they kiss. They just just begin to foster community and celebrate. They celebrate culture, things, their heritage. They address Latino community issues, perhaps specific needs and challenges that they're going through. Everybody is welcome and is open with open arms in that kind of environment. And let me add this. And it is very intergenerational, which is another component of the church growth movement nowadays, very intergenerational because you have kids running their youth, interacting with the with the elderly or helping grandma or grandpa. I will lead to abuelita and they hang in together as a new faith community. Yes.

Dwight: That's wonderful. So, so as we think about the landscape of the church in North America, and we think about the cultural diversity that's present, um, I want to just invite you to explore more with us how vital it is to have these kinds of culturally specific expressions of church that provide a sense of home, perhaps for people who are, you know, immigrants or who are not in the dominant culture. And but then how they might relate to the broader landscape of churches. Because you talked a lot about intercultural church and cross-cultural, you know, connections. And so just what are you seeing in terms of promise and possibility and also struggle around that?

Eliseo: I think that some of the.

Eliseo: Promises are the following. Number one, there's the USA as a country, we I think we have about 400 and so many languages spoken in the USA. We have become the third largest missionary field globally. So culturally, there's this celebration opportunity to reach people where they are. For instance my wife teaches at the Fayette County Public School System in Lexington, Kentucky. And what we have found that just in that district, there are about 79 different languages spoken independently. How you see the present immigration process that countries not just in the USA, but countries across the globe are experiencing, then we need to begin to think, wow, there are millions of people with whom we can share the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because at the end of the book of acts chapter 17, I think it's verse 26, it speaks about the fact that, um, that God is the one bringing people to find him wherever they are. Now, having said that, though, um, yes, this represents challenges because now we have to think that the gospel is not just spoken in English, that the gospel, the richness of it, the history of who we are in Christ. It comes from so many backgrounds and opportunities. And so how do we adjust to the cultural settings, the the new environments that are coming in, not just even a people moving in, but for instance, I'm coaching a pastor in Colombia, um, in and he he was telling me that there there's going to be in the next five years the the investments of different organizations and companies is going to be over $20 billion. And, and so you have now new families coming, engineers, different settings, different environments. And he was saying, so how do we do that? And the church is going to be at the very center of the growth of these many companies, so they will have to reimagine themselves. It's not just about reaching other cultures, other countries, other nations, but the challenge of how do we reimagine what would be like for this congregation to be relevant in the community that they're going to be building?

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Dwight: And so I'm curious for some of our listeners and viewers who may not be as familiar with some of the church planting going on in across Latin America, for instance, and particularly Protestant church planting. Um, tell us a little bit about what that landscape looks like.

Eliseo: Thank you for, for for that. And I would probably use two components over here the global south and the global North. The global North has resources, plenty of resources. But according to the growth and the multiplication of congregation, the global South has surpassed immensely what the global North has been leading us to this point. So I think that this globalization or this international ministry influences can bring to us, number one, a posture of cultural humility. The global North. As such, we need to say, okay, what is it that they are doing? Or how are they engaging in spiritual realities and habits so that we can not necessarily mimic what is happening, but enjoy just flowing to that river of God's glory and see that. So that would be one cultural humility. The number two would be, um, a sharing ecology. How do we contextualize and adapt. How can we do ministry together in a way that we are open to what they bring? The I call the passion. I'm going to use two terms like Iglesia Caliente and La Iglesia Fria, the hot Church and the cold church. And many of the theologians and sociologists are familiar with those two terms. So how can we bring that hot church? Iglesia Caliente, into into La Iglesia Fria, the cold church. And so the inherited church can embrace these new movements of the Holy Spirit and and to listen and to seek to understand the this diverse and and unique context that are coming in. So by listening first and seeking to understand those things, the the community around that, what is that going to look like, how the relational approaches we have to shift concerning ministry. For instance, you know, I am bilingual, bicultural. I'm a hybrid. I'm a us. I mean, I've been in the USA since 1984. I'm a US person, but I'm also very Latino. Hablo dos idiomas. So, but but then when I'm thinking about ministry globally and how this the global South can can create a new a new dynamics into the global North would be things like the use of time. What is the meaning of time? Um, how do we measure time? What is more important is more important the relationship or the time? And how can these two be balanced so we can solve certain tensions. But those two examples are the most basic. One that I can bring to to our attention today in our conversation.

Terri: Yeah, there's a lot there. I feel like there's a course underneath what you just said about how we can learn together. And and that's kind of exciting to me to think about what would it be to have new conversations. That leads me to where you ended the sense of how do we how would you give church planters in our context here in the US some, um, encouragement or ideas on how do we actually discern where God is leading? I think one of the the pieces I heard you both explicitly and implicitly say is there's a leading of the spirit in the church of the South to be to be a hot church, to be passionate, to be adaptable to the questions of the people and the context that's changing. There's a leading of the spirit. And what would it mean for church planters in the US to be leaning into that? A little bit more.

Eliseo: One thing I could mention is we need to learn to be the church in different cultural contexts. One one thing would not fit everybody else. And so we can be able to learn or exegete or to study the context. So that way we don't have to necessarily impose what what has been happening over here. In other words, the success of one place not necessarily may work in another location. So we need to learn to, to to to see that. What is the context there for a church planter to be effective in that setting is to understand what what do people do there? How do they live together? What is community like? What are the main issues that they're facing? Um, where are people doing community? Where how do they enjoy life? Where specific things that they do together, so that in a sense we need to to see that and then be flexible enough to learn that in God and through God, he can help us to do that. What I call the research, the study, the mission, insight kind of things, the information. But mainly what I have found the most fruitful is whenever I call the boots on the ground, when I go and sit with people and eat with them, and and at that moment they inform me in ways that I never thought or I was not able to see. So whenever I go to one place, the one question I ask help me to see what I don't see in this specific city, community or city or street or avenue where we are.

Dwight: So one way to think about culture is also generationally. And I'm curious what your thoughts are as we think about church being contextualized for younger generations, it seems that particularly in mainline denominations in the US, there's a, you know, a way in which they're dominated by in many places, by older generations and younger people don't feel like they're necessarily the way of doing church is speaking their language. So. So share with us a bit about that. Younger generations.

Eliseo: Sure. Thank you for for that detail. That's a very, very unique idea. By the way. We my my whole family, we're attending a church where intergenerational ministry happens supernaturally. Here's here's the deal. And what I have seen and I have observed many of the kids and the youth who come, they know that because they they I'm talking about Lexington, Kentucky, where we have a university, many colleges and places where where a lot of younger generations come from other states. So so here's one thing. They don't have a grandfather or they don't have a family. Okay. So and then the older generation of the persons, the church members were there, perhaps because of the fact that the kids have have gone away, have traveled, have gone to work somewhere else. They don't have their children or their grandchildren. So they adopting these kids who are coming, seeking for the elders to connect in that way. And honestly, I've been asking questions left and right about this congregation. And and it happens supernaturally. So we so you have groups of younger generations, even children praying for grandparents. And it is just so beautiful and or grandparents or the older generation praying for them. Um, I think that in a sense, we we, the family of God is composed of that. God is a God of intergenerational, in other words, for instance, uh, Eli, he knew the voice of God. He could distinguish how he spoke. He understood his language and his narrative. But Eli needed Samuel to hear the voice, because for some reason or another in that narrative, Eli has lost some of the antenna in communications with God. But God speaks to a new generation, Samuel. But he has to run to Samuel and to say, help me to hear what I hear. Are you the one calling me? And that happens three times, but the third time Eli now knows that God is speaking through Samuel and he's okay with that. And so is Samuel. So I think that when when I embrace that narrative, I, I love I love to see that happening, for instance, to be more personal for the listeners. Um, my my youngest child asked me on Sunday, daddy, what would have happened to me if I had not had been born in this family? And and that was a deep, profound question. It really shook. Listen. He shook. He shook the foundations of my life. I didn't know what to answer. And I said, you know what? Um, let me let me think about that. Um, because immediately I would have said, well, God was going to take care of you. So we began and and throughout the entire day on Sunday we went to play basketball one on one. We talked about it and so he was teaching me what faith is all about at that age by engaging me in deeper questions. So my point is we need all generations coming together, worshiping God. And I'm not saying that maybe churches don't have to have programs or for a specific needs or specific groups. No, it's not either or. It is both. And so at times my child runs to his children's church, but at times he said, daddy, I think I need to hear what pastor, uh, what the pastor is going to be preaching about. I love those themes. And and he's there and he's another component I learned from younger generations. They my kids particularly, they may be there with you and I. We're going to be talking about so many other things and but they listening. So in a sense that's what the gospel is about. It's all about about listening, interpreting. What does that mean for me? What does that look like?

Terri: I love that story and that answer. I'm a new grandma. Dwight knows this. Number two grandchild was just born two weeks ago.

Eliseo: Oh, beautiful.

Terri: I know. And on Sunday, my, uh, I pastor at a different church than where my husband and children go. So at. On Sunday, they went to the church that my kids grew up at. And it was, you know, baby is eight days old. And the stories that came were just touching. First of all, some of these older grandma types, right, that aren't related to them but have known Elizabeth. She was little, could hardly wait to meet this little one, right. Who have journeyed with her and to have these conversations as well as, um, I think that congregation over the years since that daughter was like first or second grade, they've given her a place to share her voice. In first grade, she wanted to do something for Feed My Starving Children, which was raising money for people that didn't have food, and they gave her a space to do that. I think what you're tapping into is when communities that are intergenerational, open space for the younger voices, right, like you said, take their questions or impulses seriously, but also just value their relational, um, kind of dialogue. Right? And the coming by coming alongside each other at those milestone moments of life. Right. That big questions like, what would happen if I wasn't born into this family, right? Because where else in our culture. I'll say this for my children. Other than church, there aren't any other intergenerational. That doesn't mean every church is a good place for that. But what I'm saying is outside of church communities, there are no other as as expansive, intergenerational communities, as faith communities.

Eliseo: Right. Right. Yes. And so when I read the narrative in the Scripture, in the Old Testament and New Testament, you have you have the whole house in the New Testament, for instance, Polish preaching. The whole house is being baptized. All the parents or maybe grandparents, the whole house with the children. And so how exciting it is to see parents baptizing the children in, in, in the context of the inherited church. It is just beautiful. It is just beautiful.

Terri: So last question, what gives you hope about the future of the church?

Eliseo: Oh, I think that all of what I'm seeing gives me hope for the future. But here's here's a couple of things. Um, number one, resilience. Um, I think I've seen as I coached different leaders in denominations and in congregations, I see resilience, I see this this spirit that is so strong that the roots are going really deep. The second thing that that I'm, that I'm, that I see, I see across is adaptability. Um, I think that Covid taught us a great lesson. Number one, we cannot live on isolation. It's impossible. So I think that the hope for the church is that resilience that I see, the adaptability to changes that are happening as we speak today and throughout history. The church has faced many challenges in and he found ways to renew itself and remain a beacon of hope. So in a hopeless world, whatever little hope that you have is a huge ocean of possibilities. Because once the people who may feel so hopeless find it, they will drink water from that hydrant of God's divine love. So I see a growing willingness within the church to engage with the world in meaningful ways, in new, creative ways. I see the church as the other hope that I see there embracing change as an opportunity to grow, rather than something to be feared. They're saying, okay, I'm willing to do that. I'm willing to go to the volcano. I want to see what life is, is like. So the the other thing that I have observed is this energy within certain generations of justice and mercy. Um, I've, I've noticed the deepening in commitments to be cross-cultural. Um, the, the desire to be intergenerational to, to to move together to, to do life in a new, vibrant ways. So I'm very encouraged for the ways that the church is learning to listen, to adapt and to respond to the Holy Spirit leading even in uncertain times that we are in now.

Dwight: Well, Doctor Mejia, thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today.

Terri: And to our listeners, thank you for listening to this episode of The Pivot podcast to spread the word about pivot. If you're listening on YouTube, please subscribe. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or some other platform, please leave us a review. That really helps us engage with you and and hear what is meaningful for you.

Dwight: Finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share. Pivot with a friend. Until next time. This is Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton signing off. See you next week.

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org .