In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Jamie Rivero, HR Director at MYCO Mechanical, Inc., to explore what disciplined HR leadership looks like in a rapidly changing environment. Drawing on nearly two decades of experience across manufacturing, logistics, healthcare, retail, and construction, Jamie shares how HR leaders can navigate AI adoption and major system decisions without losing credibility or trust.

Jamie explains why moving too fast on AI and HR technology often creates more problems than it solves. She unpacks the importance of understanding the business before evaluating tools, pressure-testing vendor claims, and building ROI cases that connect time saved to real business outcomes rather than surface-level efficiency metrics.

The conversation also examines where AI can support HR teams and where human judgment must remain central. Jamie outlines how HR leaders can reduce low-value work with technology while protecting high-stakes decisions like hiring, performance management, and employee relations, offering a grounded view of what it takes to lead HR through ongoing change.

Topics Discussed:

1. Why HR leadership today requires judgment, not just tools
2. Slowing down AI adoption to avoid costly implementation mistakes
3. Evaluating HR technology through a true business lens
4. Building credible ROI cases that executives trust
5. Lessons learned from failed or delayed HR system implementations
6. Negotiating vendor contracts and protecting leverage during implementation
7. Where AI belongs in HR and where humans must stay in the loop
8. Preparing HR teams for continuous change without eroding trust

If you are an HR leader, people strategist, or executive navigating AI, HR technology, and constant change, this episode offers practical insight into how experienced HR leaders make decisions that stand the test of time.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Jamie Rivero on LinkedIn

And it's like everybody thinks AI.

2

Just because it's AI, it's going to

simplify things, or it's going to reduce

3

costs, or it's going to reduce headcount.

4

And I feel like you really need to

do a lot of due diligence when it

5

comes to vetting AI technology and

really figuring out and spending

6

the time if it's the right fit.

7

Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

8

For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

9

be prepared to be decimated.

10

We reject that message.

11

The future of HR won't be handed to us.

12

Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

13

Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

14

what they've learned, and what's next.

15

We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Welcome to the Future Proof HR podcast,

where we explore how forward thinking

18

HR leaders are preparing for disruption.

19

Thomas Kunjappu: and redefining what it

means to lead people in a changing world.

20

I'm your host, Thomas

Kunjappu, CEO of Cleary.

21

Today's guest is Jamie Rivero,

22

HR Director at MYCO Mechanical, Inc.

23

A strategic global HR and operations

leader, Jamie focuses on aligning

24

human capital to business outcomes.

25

Building culture that drives performance

while safeguarding compliance and risk.

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With experience leading transformation

and fostering resilient teams, Jamie

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blends integrity, a clear strategic

vision, and hands-on operational

28

chops to deliver measurable results.

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Jamie, welcome to the podcast.

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Jamie Rivero: Thank you for having me.

31

Thomas Kunjappu: So tell me a little

bit about your background and the

32

scope and industry that you work at.

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Jamie Rivero: Sure.

34

So I've been working in human

resources for about 18 years.

35

I've worked in grocery, like

grocery retail, healthcare,

36

manufacturing and logistics,

where I spent most of my career.

37

And now about six months ago, I

made the jump into construction,

38

which has been definitely a

change, but there's definitely some

39

similarities in the manufacturing

40

and warehousing background.

41

And I oversee all facets of HR.

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So from recruitment all the

way up to talent development,

43

full life cycle of employment.

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Thomas Kunjappu: That is a

lot of different industries.

45

I'd be excited to get into what's similar,

46

what's different.

47

But first, I'd like to ask you a little

bit about how you've maybe moved across

48

different companies with AI-driven

cultures that are a little bit different

49

or attitudes towards AI and or technology.

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Can you tell me a little bit about

these mindset shifts and what that

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means for you being an HR leader?

52

Jamie Rivero: So I definitely

have dealt with a stark difference

53

in terms of attitude shifts

54

towards AI.

55

So my previous company was running

towards AI at a very fast pace,

56

which I am all for AI, but I feel

like right now it's like a buzzword.

57

And it's like everybody thinks, you know,

AI, just because it's AI, it's going to

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simplify things, or it's going to reduce

costs, or it's going to reduce headcount.

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And I feel like you really need to

do a lot of due diligence when it

60

comes to vetting AI technology and

really figuring out and spending

61

the time if it's the right fit.

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And where I'm at now, definitely not as

running towards it that quickly, which

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is obviously a big difference, but I

actually welcome it because I do, I feel

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like you need to find the balance with AI.

65

And I'm sure we'll jump into it

a little bit more in terms of why

66

that is and why that's a benefit.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So then what does

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that mean for you as an HR leader in

your day-to-day when you have this?

69

Because it's one thing for the business to

have like an attitude or a certain culture

70

around AI, but then what does

that mean for you and how your

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daily rhythms are different?

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Jamie Rivero: Yeah, so AI definitely

has hit HR as an industry very heavily.

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And it's a topic at all

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the conferences.

75

I've been seeing it for

the last couple years.

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It's like most of the content

at HR conferences is now AI.

77

And where I feel like it's a little

bit challenging is I feel like so

78

much technology has flooded the space

right now, but there hasn't been a

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whole lot of framework in terms of

best practices on how to implement it.

80

What are the implications of AI

technology, especially from a

81

legal and a compliance standpoint?

82

And that's a lot of the feedback that I've

heard at a lot of these HR conferences.

83

It's like AI, AI, but it's like,

how do we actually implement it?

84

What are the best practices?

85

And I feel like maybe we ran a little bit

too fast towards AI and we skipped some of

86

those steps.

87

And I feel like a lot of companies

are now trying to figure out

88

all of that kind of legal

89

and compliance aspect, which

I think is really important.

90

And for me, also, HR, there's a

HR, there's a human aspect to it.

91

And we can talk about later about

the implications of when it's

92

appropriate to use AI technology.

93

But there's certain things in HR where I

don't know that it's ever going to make

94

sense for AI technology to be utilized.

95

And that's something that I feel like as

HR leaders, we really need to figure out.

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And I feel like also we also

need to embrace AI technology.

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Like I know there's a lot of

people who are resistant to

98

it, because a lot of times when

99

you hear AI, you think, you know,

it's going to replace jobs, and

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it's going to eliminate our jobs.

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And I feel like we need to be open

to it, but also understand, like,

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it's not going to take our job.

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And I feel like if you position

yourself, like you will be

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a very valuable HR person.

105

Like there's no way that AI technology

is going to totally eliminate your job.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So there's a lot to

unpack there, but let's start with, I

107

guess, just the concept up top, right?

108

That like from a vendor perspective,

there's been lots of pushing of

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the technology into the HR realm.

110

You've had some experience with this.

111

Like do you evaluate a potential

partnership in, I guess you call

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it right, it's a flooded market.

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Jamie Rivero: Yeah.

114

And it definitely is a flooded market.

115

If you walk expos at conferences,

I would say probably like 40

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to 50% of it now is all AI

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technology, maybe more.

118

And I would say definitely,

first and foremost, you need

119

to understand your business.

120

And when I say that from an HR

perspective, it's not just understanding

121

your business from an HR perspective.

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If you want to be an effective

HR leader, you need to understand

123

the business as a whole.

124

And that's something that I always

try to do anytime I join a company.

125

I want to understand my role,

but I also want to understand

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how my role impacts other

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areas of the business.

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Because oftentimes when you're

implementing AI technology,

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like it's going to impact not

130

just HR.

131

And if it's from an HR

perspective, it's going to impact

132

other areas of the business.

133

So I think having a full

understanding of that.

134

Also vetting the software.

135

Is this a software

company that is brand new?

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Has it been around a while?

137

Understanding does this

software fit my business today?

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And is it going to fit my

business if my business doubles

139

or triples?

140

I think oftentimes people make a lot of

short-sighted decisions and I've seen

141

it over the years where it's like you

decide on a technology or a software

142

and, you know, it fits your business

today, but then you're not thinking

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a couple of years down the road, is

this software going to be able to grow

144

and support the company as we grow?

145

Because there's a lot of money

and time that gets spent in

146

implementing different types

147

of software solutions.

148

And there's nothing worse than

spending a ton of time on a project.

149

And then three years later, you're

like, this doesn't fit anymore.

150

And then also definitely

diving into the ROI.

151

So I feel like a lot of these software

companies, and I see it because I've been

152

through a lot of these sales pitches.

153

It's we can save you $1.2

154

million, we can save you $300,000.

155

And it's and it goes back

to my point of you really

156

need to know your business because

you should be calculating the ROI.

157

Obviously they can give you

tips and help you with it.

158

But I always get fearful when

companies are like, we'll do

159

the ROI calculation for you.

160

And then they start throwing these

random numbers and it's, we'll even

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talk to your executive team about it.

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And I'm like, I can't even imagine like

putting you in front of my executive team

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because you don't even know our business.

164

Like they're going to poke holes in that.

165

So I think it's really important to

vet that and also get references.

166

Like I've been through sales pitches.

167

I've been through almost to the point

where we're going to sign and they can't

168

produce references that are similar to

our business or who could talk to what

169

exactly we need the software to do.

170

So I think it's really hammering

home, like spending a lot of

171

time in that due diligence phase

before you sign a contract.

172

Thomas Kunjappu: Got it.

173

So due diligence, understanding your

business, figuring out your process.

174

There's the understanding

the potential vendor partner.

175

And if you put it all together, you

can create something that can work.

176

But then I've also heard about

leveraging pilots wherever

177

you can try before you buy.

178

Does that generally work?

179

Has that worked for you or

does it depend on the use case?

180

Jamie Rivero: It's a great idea in theory.

181

What I oftentimes find is there are a

lot of software companies that will offer

182

you pilots, but it's oftentimes not live.

183

It's a sandbox type of territory

where you can't really fully

184

see what it can do as it's

185

integrated into your business.

186

And that's where I found I

oftentimes struggle because I've

187

run into situations, and I'm

188

sure a lot of people experience this

where, sales people will tell you

189

whatever and they'll tell you, oh, yeah,

the software does this, it does that.

190

And then it's like you get midway through

the implementation and it's no, actually,

191

it can't do that or that's custom.

192

And then they try to charge you for

the development and stuff like that.

193

And that's why I say I think pilot

programs are definitely helpful.

194

And the more that you

can see live, the better.

195

But you also have go into

it knowing like, it is very

196

difficult to vet everything out.

197

But I think it's important.

198

Like, you don't want to skip

that due diligence phase.

199

Thomas Kunjappu: And then do you

think that there's some things that

200

are just I don't know, are there some

201

use cases or types of areas

that are just really hard to

202

do right and leads naturally to

over-promising and under-delivering?

203

Or is it really just, in your

experience, about the specific

204

partnership in question?

205

Jamie Rivero: I think it's a mix of both.

206

A lot of companies have very specific ways

and processes that they do certain things.

207

I'll give you an example,

performance review process.

208

I ran into a situation where

I didn't feel 100% about the

209

performance module of the software.

210

I knew going into it was probably going

to be a little bit of a challenge, but

211

I was a little surprised during the

implementation of how hard it was to get

212

the system to do something so simple.

213

And I think that companies need

to consider that when they're

214

evaluating software, like how firm

are you on your existing process?

215

Because a lot of times like you have

to adapt and sometimes you have to

216

pivot and change to make things work.

217

And then there's certain companies

where they're just dead set on

218

this is how it's going to be adapt.

219

And sometimes you have to pivot

and change to make things work.

220

And then there's certain companies

where they're just dead set on

221

this is how it's going to be done.

222

And then obviously it's a big

problem when the software solution

223

can't do what you need it to do.

224

And I think that I'm running into a lot

of that in the market right now where

225

it's like they lack the customization.

226

And I think that if you're

a company where you need

227

customization, that's something you

228

really need to vet in

the process early on.

229

But if you're not and you're looking

for more of that out of the box turnkey

230

solution, then that works for you.

231

But it just depends on like the specific

processes of your business and how married

232

you are to them.

233

Thomas Kunjappu: I see.

234

So then you mentioned ROI and how

that's important own yourself and

235

understanding the nuances of the business

versus something that's more generic.

236

Can you tell me a little bit about

your, at least your mental model for

237

making these ROI cases to leadership?

238

What are the inputs and the kind

of the so what's that you go for?

239

Jamie Rivero: Yeah.

240

So most of my career, and I feel

like I've been very successful

241

with pushing big initiatives because

I do spend so much time to figure out

242

what the ROI is and really lay it out

where it's like when I'm coming to the

243

executive team to spend money or to

implement something, I've already thought

244

through in terms of what are the benefits,

245

what are the downfalls, so

the pros and cons, what are

246

the costs associated with it?

247

When will we typically see the ROI?

248

What are all the inputs

or processes that go in?

249

How am I measuring them, understanding

like what is the expected outcome,

250

but also taking a step further.

251

And I found that obviously I was in

an operations role heavily as well.

252

Everybody wants technology and

they want enhancements and stuff

253

like that, but they come at a cost.

254

So what are we getting from the cost?

255

And oftentimes I'm laying out, okay,

we're going to free up this many

256

hours a week, or we're going to free

up this person, but then also coming

257

with a plan in terms of this is

258

Speaker 3: This is now what I'm gonna

do with this person, or this is now

259

what I'm gonna do with this time,

or I'm gonna eliminate head count.

260

I feel like taking it so far, like

that has made it very easy for

261

me to get things pushed through.

262

Jamie Rivero: Whereas I've seen

other people, they struggle.

263

It's this software is going

to cost $57,000 a year.

264

And then you have executives,

265

like, where are we getting this money?

266

Why are we going to spend on it?

267

What's the value?

268

And that's why I think it's important

to really be able to build that business

269

case, because I think it makes it so

much easier, but also understanding.

270

Maybe you go through the ROI process and

you realize, and I've actually ran into

271

this, where the software looks so great.

272

It looked like such a great solution.

273

It was cutting edge, leading the market.

274

But then I'm like, wait a

minute, there's no ROI here.

275

Or the ROI is so minimal compared to

the amount of work and stuff like that.

276

And it's just there's no

justification for the cost.

277

And sometimes that does happen too.

278

Thomas Kunjappu: So you told me

something that, you just mentioned

279

something that's this next level,

280

which is an ROI calculation

typically says, look, we saved this

281

many hours or this many dollars.

282

And that's usually expressed

in time for personnel, right?

283

Maybe there's other things about like

outcomes, whether it's whatever it is,

284

error reduction or compliance,

which is just useful or some

285

kind of employee productivity

286

benefit as well.

287

But strictly on the HR team, it's

typically about like hours saved, right?

288

That goes into the outcome.

289

But then you're taking that a step

further to say why the hours saved

290

matter, not assuming that everyone

thinks that itself is a goal.

291

Because why, after all,

does the HR team get paid?

292

It's to spend time doing

things that is valuable, right?

293

But then if you're going to save time,

you're saying, but then here are things

294

that is business aligned that we can do

that is even more important that we're

295

going to be able to do with that time.

296

So the ROI isn't like this many hours

saved, but it's these other things

297

done without any new additional hiring.

298

Jamie Rivero: Yeah, absolutely.

299

Because you have to be careful.

300

I've run into situations where

301

I've had managers come to me and we

had invested a bunch in enhancements,

302

software development, that type of stuff.

303

And they're still telling me that

they're overloaded with their work

304

and they need more head count.

305

And I'm like, but wait a

minute, we've done all this.

306

So there's something wrong there.

307

So I think like being able to make that

case of this is what we plan to save

308

and taking a step further and sharing.

309

This is the value that we can bring

to the business and looking at more HR

310

related activities that maybe have fell

by the wayside that we could focus on.

311

Or I feel like businesses

are also changing so rapidly.

312

And I think a lot of businesses want

like that human connection still.

313

So if we can free up our HR team where

they're not doing these monotonous

314

type tasks, what more can we add

on their plate that is going to

315

connect to the bottom line of the

316

business or connect to our

strategic goals of the business?

317

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, there's so many

different interrelated problems, right?

318

And it's sometimes hard to

pinpoint exactly what it is.

319

So I feel like there's

something there in that story.

320

Can you tell me a little bit more about

that manager or management investment?

321

What was the initial thinking?

322

And I imagine there was some kind of

like software or technology solution

323

that we thought would solve the

problem, but maybe it was still there.

324

So what was the initial thinking?

325

And then how did that evolve?

326

And maybe you can

327

think of everything as an experiment

along the way that worked or

328

didn't work, but maybe the root

cause itself was misdiagnosed?

329

Or how do you think about that?

330

Jamie Rivero: Yeah.

331

So obviously there were a

lot of enhancements that

332

were made in our ERP system.

333

And we have an in-house team, but

we also had consultants and there's

334

a lot of costs that's associated.

335

And oftentimes when you're looking

at those enhancements, you want

336

to understand what is the ROI?

337

Is this worth our time and money?

338

And having the manager fully understand or

present what exactly is this change going

339

to simplify and taking it a step further.

340

And one of the things we were seeing

a number of enhancements being

341

made, but it was like business

was not drastically changing in

342

terms of sales, but the manager

continually was like, I'm overloaded.

343

My team's overloaded.

344

So then I'm questioning,

okay, what is going on here?

345

We did these four things and this

was supposed to reduce our spend.

346

And I'm going back into all the

347

fine details of these projects.

348

And for me, really management issue.

349

But also it made me kind of

question, okay, maybe we need to

350

dive deeper into your analysis.

351

And that was a pain point I've

learned over the years is like,

352

you can have teams do analysis of

353

This has been a fantastic

conversation so far.

354

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

355

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

356

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

357

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

358

can all thrive in the age of ai.

359

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

360

community.

361

Now back to the show.

362

Jamie Rivero: whether it's time studies,

whether it's ROI and stuff like that.

363

But it is really important.

364

Like you can't always take

everything at face value.

365

And you need to, especially when there's

a significant amount of money involved,

366

you really have to take the time to

go through that analysis and make

367

sure are they looking at every aspect?

368

Are these calculations correct?

369

I've seen issues where

370

there's a formula and it's when

you're authorizing financial expenses

371

or implementing something big

372

that's going to disrupt the business.

373

You want to make sure that You want to

make sure that you're doing it right.

374

And that you're spending money

that is actually adding value.

375

And for me, like what I was seeing was

maybe these weren't the right solutions.

376

Like maybe we weren't spending our

time and money in the right areas.

377

And it made me dive deeper into the

specific management of that area.

378

And obviously, it's a lesson learned.

379

Like you really can't just blindly take

everything you have to dive in and make

380

sure that analysis is 100% accurate.

381

And if you're not sure, then you need to

make sure that you're asking the right

382

questions to get to the bottom of that.

383

Thomas Kunjappu: And which part of

that involves like understanding

384

how the business works, right?

385

Or how that group is actually doing

their like day-to-day activities that

386

leads to this analysis and this set of

concerns, which you're trying to solve

387

for with some kind of process or software.

388

Great point.

389

So it's okay.

390

Maybe you don't necessarily trust

vendor math or manager math.

391

And you want to ensure that

you're double checking the work

392

yourself and that makes sense.

393

And now that we're in this age of

AI, are all these things the same?

394

Or do you feel like it's all these

cautions that you have, these lessons

395

that you've learned from trying to improve

outcomes and get to higher ROI and all

396

these steps that we talked about in this

age of AI, does it feel any different

397

than, I don't know, the age of SaaS or any

kind of technologies beforehand in terms

398

of your process or even the challenges?

399

Jamie Rivero: It

certainly feels different.

400

I think the more implementations

you go through, the more

401

sales pitches you go through.

402

I think that there's a sense of, I don't

know if jadedness is the right word.

403

But as you go through these

different experiences, you learn,

404

like, I went through a number of

very large software implementations

405

over the last couple of years.

406

And while they all panned out

at the end, for the most part, I

407

did run into a number of hiccups.

408

And for me, I've always tried to take

those setbacks as like lessons learned.

409

So like now every time I go into another

software evaluation, I'm always like,

410

I have in the back of my

head, learn this the hard way,

411

make sure you do this better.

412

And I always try to do a postmortem

anytime I do like an implementation

413

of any sort, because I want

to understand not just from my

414

perspective, but also what

my team has went through.

415

What could we have done differently?

416

What did we learn?

417

What did we not vet properly?

418

And then as we go through more and more

of these implementations, we're in a much

419

better mindset and much stronger in terms

of hopefully really vetting them out

420

better, but also being able to deliver

421

exactly what we're intending to get.

422

Thomas Kunjappu: Anything in particular

that I know it's every, depending on

423

what kind of project and the vendor and

the context, it all can be very distinct.

424

And you're talking about the processes

that if you have that in place, it's

425

helpful, but any particular other

meta lessons or big ones that come to

426

mind that you'd be willing to share?

427

Jamie Rivero: Yeah.

428

So I went through an experience

earlier this year with a payroll

429

vendor.

430

It was payroll HRS and

it was a great system.

431

I still love it.

432

the system the implementation process was

horrible and I learned a lot of lessons

433

throughout it one of the caveats and every

HR person anytime you bring up payroll

434

systems we all have gripes about all

of them there is not a perfect payroll

435

hrs system out there but for me i had a

challenging implementation because there

436

were a lot of things that were promised.

437

And I was very smart about it in

terms of getting things in writing.

438

Like I would not agree to sign the

contract until I got certain specifics

439

in there because the certain specifics

were, they depended upon our business.

440

And for me, like they

were major deal breakers.

441

If you can't do this, then this

is not the software for us.

442

And I should have known early on that this

implementation was not going to go well.

443

And I was smart about it.

444

So one of the things I've

learned in implementations is

445

in any software agreements,

446

don't pay a lot for implementation.

447

Like oftentimes when they quote you,

they will throw like high numbers for

448

this is our implementation fee, or

this is the cost of implementation.

449

I've always negotiated

them down substantially.

450

Because what I've learned is once

451

you pay those big fees for

implementation, they have you on the hook.

452

But if you pay a lot less, they have more

in the game than you do at that point.

453

So it becomes easier from a

negotiating factor as well

454

as trying to get stuff done.

455

And with this payroll

456

provider, there were a lot of things like

there were delays in terms of starting

457

implementation, which our business was

dependent upon the system going live

458

in January, because we had performance

reviews, there were benefits involved,

459

like there were a lot of moving pieces.

460

And they had assured me like, we're gonna,

461

we're gonna go live.

462

And I knew it's probably

not gonna trend that way.

463

And it got worse as the implementation

went, was moving forward because

464

it was like more and more things

were getting dropped on us.

465

I'll give you a quick example.

466

So we were in two countries, we're

in the United States and Canada.

467

And one of the premises of this

software move was I wanted a payroll

468

system that could do both US and

Canada in one system, rather than

469

running two standalone programs.

470

They assured me throughout the process,

we can do Canadian payroll, went

471

through the demos, talked to a client.

472

But one thing that wasn't

disclosed to us was that

473

they couldn't pay Canadian

employees directly.

474

They weren't set up yet.

475

So we would have to export a file

out of the system, then move it

476

to our bank, who would then pay

the Canadian employees directly.

477

They dropped that on me, I guess,

four weeks when we were supposed

478

to go live, like four weeks before.

479

And I'm like, wait a minute, it's

not just I just send a file to

480

the bank and then they just pay.

481

There's a lot of stuff that's

involved in terms of that.

482

Then it got to a point where I

actually had to delay the project.

483

Like I had to stop it essentially

because there were a lot

484

of things that were popping

485

up that were like out of the

scope of the original agreement.

486

Even in like the learning

management piece of it, they were

487

trying to pass costs along to me.

488

And I'm like, wait a minute,

I have in writing like that

489

you were paying for this.

490

So it got to a point where I had

to stop the project completely.

491

And because we didn't spend that

much in the implementation, we had

492

a lot of negotiating power because

they had so much more tied up into

493

this implementation than we did.

494

But it was a mess.

495

I learned a lot from it.

496

It was a great, I still

think it's a great system.

497

But it taught me the importance of things

that we probably should have vetted

498

better up front, as well as the importance

of getting certain things in writing.

499

Thomas Kunjappu: Great points.

500

And now we're really talking about

like contracting in that detail, right?

501

Yeah, in a true partnership, right?

502

There should be skin in the game

a little bit on both sides, right?

503

It needs to be fair.

504

And that's a great example of

something at surface level.

505

And even at level two, the

answer is yes, we're aligned.

506

But then, and even post-pilot, when

you're actually getting to an actual

507

four weeks beforehand, you actually

learn something where there's so many

508

assumptions that were like made that

was not, there was not alignment on

509

or potentially was willfully hidden.

510

I'm not sure.

511

But these are the, yeah, like

all these pitfalls, but a common

512

theme I'm sensing here is it

513

really maps to your

business processes, right?

514

You need to understand like

what is, what matters and

515

doesn't matter to your business.

516

I don't know if you had a great bank

517

and it's an automated process to

just whatever it is you need to do

518

to transfer the money and make

it happen, that's one thing.

519

But you can't change banks

because of many other reasons.

520

That leads you to a

black hole here, right?

521

So it really is getting to as many

detailed levels of understanding

522

about what really matters and you're

inflexible on versus what you could push

523

forward on from a process perspective.

524

Within this or many other projects,

what are your tools to bring

525

skeptical leaders alongside?

526

So let's say you've done your own math.

527

You feel like this is a project that you

528

want to move forward with, whatever it is.

529

And you're looking've done your own math.

530

You feel like this is a project

that like you want to move

531

forward with whatever it is.

532

And you're looking to bring in

it could be leadership or it

533

could be the management team.

534

How do you bring them along?

535

Jamie Rivero: Yeah.

536

So oftentimes whenever I'm

thinking or trying to solve a

537

business problem, I'll oftentimes

538

talk to you.

539

I would talk to the executive team.

540

Hey, we have this issue and really

try to get their candid perspective in

541

terms of what the actual issues are,

show them that I fully understand what

542

the business issues are, and really

543

push back on it.

544

And then I take that feedback,

and I'm gonna do my own research.

545

And oftentimes, when I'm pitching certain

things, I'm already taking into account

546

that skepticism or their concerns and

making sure that I'm addressing them

547

so that they feel comfortable and

that I'm not dismissing them or trying

548

to forge ahead without their buy-in.

549

Like I at least want to make sure

that I take the time to address it.

550

And I've found that's very helpful

in getting things pushed through

551

and also finding advocates.

552

Like certain times on the executive,

they're going to, there are certain

553

people that are going to align with you.

554

They're going to buy

into what you're doing.

555

So having them help to push things

through, I find is very helpful,

556

like getting people on your

team and getting them to buy in.

557

Because when they start to see

like maybe certain other people

558

that they have a lot of respect for

559

also sold on this, I think it becomes

a lot easier to get people on board.

560

And then also just making sure

that you include the people in

561

the process who are skeptical.

562

If you go back to them and you

address all their concerns and they're

563

still skeptical, there's been times

where I've set calls up with certain

564

implementation people or subject matter

565

experts to flush out those concerns

and alleviate that if they're

566

going to hold the process up for

moving forward with a solution.

567

Thomas Kunjappu: Love those tips.

568

So let's circle back to something

you brought up way up front, which

569

was actually about how you think

that with AI technologies, there are

570

some processes that you feel

like, especially in HR, you always

571

want humans in the loop, right?

572

So tell me a little bit about

how you think about this.

573

How do you think about where,

how to bring in AI versus not?

574

Jamie Rivero: So I think a lot of

the lower level tasks, they talk

575

about AI a lot in talent acquisition.

576

And

577

I think it's super helpful.

578

And that is one area that I've

definitely implemented AI with.

579

But

580

where I don't think it's a good idea is

where it's making final hiring decisions.

581

So I think definitely having

it help through writing job

582

descriptions, sorting through

583

applicants, some of the candidate

communications in terms of

584

scheduling interviews or sending

rejections, that type of stuff,

585

I think is definitely helpful.

586

But where I would never want to put AI

is like making final hiring decisions,

587

because I feel like there's a lot that

goes into making a hiring decision.

588

And I would never fully feel

comfortable like having technology

589

just make that decision.

590

Even like handling like sensitive

employee, like relations

591

issues and stuff like that.

592

I don't think AI technology

should be involved in.

593

I also like anything with an ethical

gray area, like I would never.

594

It's just me, like I just

595

wouldn't feel comfortable

having AI technology.

596

But I feel like it's very

valuable for a lot of

597

those lower level, low value type

tasks and stuff like that, but also

598

finding that balance because I feel

like i've seen it from employees

599

where they get frustrated if they

600

think something's an AI response.

601

If they get an email from someone

and say they use ChatGPT or whatever

602

to write it, it does not go well.

603

I've also

604

gotten pushback from employees that

are like, my performance review was

605

written by ChatGPT instead of my manager.

606

So like, I feel like you

got to find a balance.

607

Thomas Kunjappu: Yes.

608

And those are great examples

of the first one, the email

609

depends on what the email is.

610

But if it's like you're, you think you're

talking to a human about a particular

611

job issue, and you feel like you get

a robot thing back unexpectedly, or

612

obviously performance management,

that's something that is high stakes.

613

And you want to, if you're going

through the trouble of going, having

614

this process, you're doing it for some

reason, or if it's meaningless, maybe

615

then, and go ahead, put in the AI in

it, but then why have the process?

616

One might ask.

617

So, right.

618

Then,

619

I just want to push you a little bit

more on these ethical kind of things.

620

Even in performance reviews or

621

in hiring decisions, what do you think

about AI technologies enabling you in

622

the background to, I don't know, pull

in a bunch of scores and give you some

623

context help make a hiring decision?

624

Or help a manager pull in a bunch of

data around activities and time tracking

625

information and performance 360 feedback

to give you a starting point upon which

626

then the trained manager, the trained HR

person is supposed to take further action.

627

Do you see risks even with

that kind of approach?

628

Jamie Rivero: I'm actually

in support of a lot of that.

629

I think where I see the risk is

where I see certain managers who

630

that's what they're going to rely on.

631

They don't want to think they're just

going to say, okay, this looks great.

632

Or AI told me to make this decision.

633

So I'm going to make it.

634

So I think it, I think it just

gets into knowing your workforce,

635

but also like training and the

education of your management team.

636

But I do feel like there is a

lot of value in AI technology,

637

especially I've done it where I'm

dumping data into an AI technology.

638

And I'm like, summarize this, and it can

spit it out very quickly, much quickly

639

than years ago, where I was spending a

ton of time trying to make the perfect

640

summary or presentation on something.

641

But yeah, I think just like the

education of the managers, knowing

642

your workforce, certain workforces,

they're very innovative, very ahead

643

when it comes to management development,

644

stuff like that.

645

And then there's others where you

probably need to spend some more time,

646

like investing into that management team.

647

Thomas Kunjappu: So then if you're

looking ahead, you, a fool's errand, but

648

let's try it, Jamie, in the next like

two or three years, what do you think a

649

future ready HR team looks like for you?

650

Jamie Rivero: So I would say finding

that balance of like human centric

651

leadership, I think that people

still crave that human connection.

652

And that's what I hear

from a lot of employees.

653

I don't think we should

fully walk away from that.

654

So it's like finding that like mix.

655

Also having the tech savviness, I

think technology is really valuable.

656

And I think as HR professionals,

we need to embrace it.

657

We need to not be scared

of it, not run away.

658

away from it.

659

And also just ensuring

that we're also changing.

660

Like I've noticed I've been in the

workforce now for about 18 years.

661

And I've noticed over the last 10

years, things have dramatically changed.

662

And I also see a lot of

companies who are not adapting

663

are not doing well financially.

664

And I think that really speaks to it.

665

And I think as HR professionals,

if we want to position ourselves

666

to be leaders in our area or

industry, we need to embrace change.

667

We need to stay on top of it.

668

It's no longer you get your HR

certification and you're good.

669

Every year I'm continually doing

professional development because

670

things are changing so rapidly.

671

Thomas Kunjappu: Absolutely.

672

So then do you think there's, I

don't know, new skills that will

673

be emergent even more or new titles

even, or a mix is the mix of an HR

674

team in, is that like the skill sets

675

does it get, does that

change a little bit as well?

676

Do you think?

677

Jamie Rivero: Yeah, I think

people analytics is huge.

678

So like metrics was like the

big buzzword I remember for a

679

number of years, but now it's

680

switching to analytics, which

I think are so important.

681

And I think that I'm seeing a

lot more technology type roles.

682

So whether it's AI managers, project

management of AI product owners,

683

that type of stuff, because it

does require a certain skillset

684

to be able to evaluate, implement

these softwares and also run them.

685

There's a number of HRIS softwares

where you actually need a team of

686

people to run the day-to-day of them.

687

So I'm seeing a lot more

technology-capable type roles

688

hitting the market over the

last couple of years for sure.

689

And I'm sure that's going

to continue to grow.

690

Thomas Kunjappu: Great.

691

So thank you for this a wonderful

conversation jamie we've been

692

really going in detail to the

nitty-gritty of identifying a

693

project on making sure that it

694

actually aligns with the business

overall and then figuring out

695

how to vet different vendors

696

an roi case doing the math yourself

including and double checking things

697

alongside vendors and managers all the way

before you actually can get some value.

698

Thank you for sharing some of the

failures along the way or setbacks that

699

help you get lessons and get stronger.

700

And there's some great

negotiating tips in there as well.

701

Yeah.

702

Like everyone has to feel like

they have skin in the game, right?

703

In a project that's involved

in trying to get it successful.

704

Thank you again and for all the folks

out there who are future-proofing

705

their own organizations and their own

hr functions i hope you found some

706

value in this conversation and once

again we'll catch you on the next one.

707

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

708

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

709

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710

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711

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age on AI.