In this episode, we’re diving into the rapid evolution of the mortgage industry and, more importantly, how organizations can and must adapt to survive and thrive. With shifting markets, burgeoning technology, and a workforce balancing unprecedented demands, the call for transformation has never been louder.

We’re joined by Vanessa Godoy, our Chief People Officer and a leader with a passion for architecture not just of HR processes, but of teams themselves. Vanessa helps us unpack the movement from traditional HR “policing” to people-first strategy, the growing importance of self-awareness for leaders, and why building intentional teams is essential as our industry changes before our eyes.

We talk candidly about the unique challenges working moms face, especially in a world that expects so much of women at work and at home. From remote motivation to strengths-based leadership, this conversation is packed with practical insights, honest reflections, and some very relatable stories (including persistent teenagers and free root beer floats we promise you’ll relate).

Here’s what we cover in this episode:

• The current transformation and uncertain future of the mortgage industry
• How the role of HR is shifting from risk-based compliance to people strategy and empowerment
• The challenges and realities of balancing family, career, and personal growth especially for women in leadership roles
• Why self-awareness, communication, and intentionality are non-negotiables for today’s leaders
• How tools like the Gallup Strengths Finder can revolutionize team dynamics, hiring, and leadership development

Key takeaways:

1. The Mortgage Industry’s Evolution Demands Change: We must recognize that the mortgage industry is undergoing profound transformation. What works today may not work a year or even six months from now, and organizations must adapt to survive 00:00, 29:15.
2. From HR Policing to People Strategy: HR is no longer just about compliance and risk management. Our focus now is on empowering our people, building engaged teams, and aligning the people strategy with business strategy for true organizational success 06:50, 30:12.
3. The Working Mom’s Balancing Act Is Real: Balancing the demands of career, family, and personal growth is a complex reality for women. We discuss the invisible load many women carry, from calendar management to emotional support, and why organizations need to acknowledge and support this reality 01:50, 05:11.
4. Intentional Leadership Is Essential in a Hybrid World: Leaders can’t afford to just “go through the motions.” With teams often dispersed, relationship-building, motivation, and development must now be intentional, thoughtful, and built on genuine understanding of each team member’s strengths and needs 11:55, 15:31.
5. Self-Awareness and Strengths-Based Teams Drive Success: Tools like Strengths Finder aren’t just HR fluff they’re core to building resilient, adaptable teams. Knowing your own strengths (and gaps), leveraging the strengths of others, and hiring for complementary skillsets is key to evolving with the demands of the business and the industry 15:31, 21:06, 26:27.

Vanessa reminds us, “I am not a finished product and I never want to be.” That commitment to continuous learning, evolving, and growing both in our careers and our personal lives is at the heart of this episode and, truly, of Lending Leadership.

Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share Lending Leadership: The Creative Brief. Let’s continue to grow together.

Rach & Rin

The industry as a whole. Right. The mortgage industry is going through so much change today. And I think it's really important that we recognize that and that we talk about it because, I mean, the transformation that this industry is going through and what it will look like a year from now, you know, two years from now is completely different. And I think for. For organizations to still be. To still exist, to be honest, to not die. Right.

We have to, we have to change

what happens when you invest in yourself during a season that life already feels hard. I think we can all relate to that, especially as working moms. Yeah, I'm raising my hand right now when life feels heavy, hard, just all the things going on, we feel busy. Well, today we're talking about, about the evolution of HR people strategy, what it looks like to lead, to grow, to show up authentically in today's workplace. And we don't just have our VP of hr, we have our Chief People Officer. I like that title so much better. Vanessa Godoy, thank you so much for joining us on Lending Leadership.

Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

We're going to get into a lot of topics, but right now we're in the midst of International Women's Day, so we absolutely have to have a nod to. I think, you know, we'll pat ourselves on the back some, some pretty awesome ladies that we work with. And it's a privilege to, to serve and work alongside you ladies every day. And, you know, let's just, let's just get into it a little bit. Let's talk about just working moms, just in general at first. I mean, we are all in that same boat. And, you know, it's just a little bit of a different story for us.

It is, you know, those of us that are doing it, it's hard to have that balance, right? You're trying to put everything into your career and everything into your kids at the same time. What's left for you at the end of the day? You know, I think that we all end up kind of in this space of, of giving so much of ourselves to work into our children or our families that there's not a lot of us left at the end of the day for ourselves.

Yeah, that's a really good point, Vanessa. I like how you stated that it's constantly that push, pull, balance, right? The female drive, the female ambition. But how is it different to be a female in the workplace than a male? And it's okay for us to have this conversation. It's a healthy conversation to discuss and to have. And I think there's just different societal expectations on female leaders. And I think the more we collaborate, the more we talk, the more we share ideas together, the stronger we become collectively for our businesses and for our families. So this is a great conversation that we're having and we were really excited to have you on to learn more about, you know, your experiences and working with so many people on the level of, you know, resources, benefits, things that can really help, you know, make the experience a stronger one for, you know, I don't know, what is it? We're almost at, I think 50, 50 in the workplace at this point, or pretty darn close to it.

Yeah. And at HMA, we actually have over 60% of our workforce is women and 61% of our leadership team are women. So we're in a great place at HMA in terms of, you know, women representing the workforce. I love, love seeing that, obviously. But look, I think it's, I, I think everybody has their thing, you know, everybody has their, you know, their, their load, their weights, their cross, whatever you want to call it that they're carrying. And so, and we don't know what that is for, for everybody as they come into the workforce. Right. What other things in their life are they having to manage that could be, you know, their parents that they're providing care for at this point? There could be other, you know, things going on in their life.

Trauma, grief, fun things too. Excitement, joy, raising children, families, financial stuff. I mean, we all carry, you know, our own. Our own waits with us. And you like the dog and I love the dog.

The dogs are a part of this too. Vanessa. Mine's whining at me during the day to go out and I'm in a meeting. I'm like, I'm in a meeting. Jaz, I'll take you out in a minute.

Yeah, yeah. Mine will like jump up here and just start, you know, pawing at me. But, but I mean, I think it's, it's not just, you know, women that are carrying this in the workplace. I do think that overall, women that have children and families tend to carry more of the family burden or the family day to day type responsibility. And specifically, women tend to what I call calendar manage or have knowledge of what's happening for the family. So even. Yeah, right. Like it's, you know, it's typically, and again, it's not for everybody, but, but many of us as women are carrying the knowledge in our head of when all the doctor's appointments are, all the, you know, the Games, the matches, the birthdays, the play dates, the, you know, like whatever is happening, what they need for school, packing, the lunches, you know, all of those kinds of things.

And so as we try and balance that with our professional life, you know, it's, it's not just the, the tasks and the things that we have to do. It's the mental capacity that we're always running through. Right. That checklist that's, you know, family and work. And again, you know, then kind of where, where do we come into the mix and how often do we end up kind of losing ourselves or forgetting, you know, the small things to take care of ourselves or to grow ourselves in that mix because there's just not space. Space for it.

Yeah, you just described my life basically. And then I always say my filing cabinets are full because, you know, I'll forget something or we'll, you know, we've done this before in my personal life. We've shown up to a birthday party when it's ending, you know, I mean, it happens. But so with all of that in mind, how have you seen your role in HR really shift to meet those needs of the people that are carrying all these burdens now?

I think that there's been a huge shift in HR in general from kind of the risk based, almost policing the workforce in a way to people strategy and really looking at people as, as resources and as an important piece of the business. And how we employ those people is really important and how we empower them to do the roles that we want them to do that we're employing them to do. So what does that look like today? I can recall being in an office environment and literally calling people down to talk about dress code or something like that. I remember turning to a colleague at the time and saying, look, I'm not the HR police. I do not care what this person is wearing in the office. To me, that's the manager's responsibility to have the conversation if it's needed. And I'm certainly here to help with how to have that conversation, to give some advice and guidance. But we have to teach our leaders to lead and to be able to have difficult conversations, whether that is, you know, something silly, as when we were all in the workplace, you know, and having a dress code, to much more difficult conversations around performance and expectations and, you know, and growth.

But as the HR professional, I always disliked that kind of HR police function. And while I still think that there's some need for that, and certainly from a risk based perspective. Perspective. Right, like that HR is here to. To. To guide people and to guide the organization into a place where we're compliant and, you know, keeps us out of trouble and talk about risk mitigation and those types of things where I think it's. It's gone. And I'm thrilled for.

This is really in, you know, how do we empower people? How do we motivate people? How do we have an engaged workforce that then has the best performance for the organization? Right. Like gets the organization to a place where you're performing at the best. The best place or the best of the ability for the organization.

Yeah.

That has to partner with the business. Right.

I love where this is going and I do have questions off of it, Vanessa. So it's like, I love when you have. I always have friends. I always have questions. That's why. That's why Rachel brings me on here. Sometimes I get on here and ask some questions. I was thinking about this, you know, for branch managers, for leaders of larger real estate groups.

Some of the people that follow our podcast specifically, you know, you were referencing an example of when you were physically in the office. And it made me think. So many examples. Now, even if you're managing branches that are in different locations, we're not in the office together anymore. We're all huddled in our workspaces. As you can see, our backgrounds right now connecting online. Right. And how has the landscape changed in your world of how leaders are motivating? You know, their top producers, their salespeople, people working with them side by side with them, their team members.

When we're all out of office and we're getting on these calls together and getting everybody out, either out in the field where they are physically located or. Or to drive business from a phone or from a teams call or from something else that they're working on. You know, how has that landscape changed in your world since we've moved from in person to virtual motivation and assistance,

while we're all separated, it is completely different how you motivate or engage with, you know, a team that is all sitting around you in an office environment is 100% different from how you engage with a team that is, you know, located all across the country. Country. And so, you know, I think that as leaders, we have to recognize that and we have to find different ways of really building engagement and retention and loyalty and, you know, all of those kind of kinds of things. You know, with. With our employees and with our teams that we lead, obviously there's tools, you know, we're using one today. We're we're on video and there's lots of other tools that, that we use at HMA and that other organ organizations use to, to stay connected. But it's way more than that. It, it really is about, you know, honestly, guys, what people want in a job today is different than, I think, what we used to want, right? And what we expect in terms of, you know, flexibility and, you know, helping us balance, you know, all of the different aspects of our lives is very different today.

And so I think really, you know, helping leaders to understand what motivates their teams, how to stay connected. It's much more intentional. You don't just look over and, you know, you have your team sitting here. It's much more intentional to think and to stop what you're doing and get out of the weeds and really take, take time to plan and to think about development for your team and to connect with them and to schedule one on ones and to coach and to review what's going on within their worlds and their departments and strategize for how it can be done differently. All of that work takes planning and really intentional work. And I think it's different today than it used to be.

That's really interesting. And if we have branch managers listening in, if you haven't thought about it in that context, I mean, I'm sure some people are really going, wow, you know, like, I. Either I'm either doing things really right, or I need to take a step back and really kind of reevaluate how I'm connecting with people. You know, we, we recently just did a. Actually have over here the strengths finder, the Gallup assessment, your strengths assessment. We did this with our leadership team. And I found it so fascinating to, to see everyone's strengths on the leadership team, to see how people. Not just something you're good at, but something you like to do.

Because how many things are we good at, but we just don't like doing them right? So understanding where your team fits in, I mean, there's a million different tests out there and things that you can do, but how you can engage your people differently if you don't know the things that they're really good at, you might think, you know, but if you don't do things like this to really engage them, how are you going to reach them the best? So I thought that was, that was pretty cool that we did that. But, you know, it's interesting. I often say for me, personal, personally, if I had to do what I'm doing and I had to be in an office every day at 8:30 ready to go, like all dressed, you know, everything put together and then kids, organized. I don't think I would be able to manage it with my personality and my style. I would not be able to. To manage it. So this setting and flexibility really works for me. You know, sometimes I'm working at 9 o' clock at night, and not that that's required of me, by all means, but that works for, for my personality and my style.

But I really like that you, you had said that. I think a lot of managers right now are probably like, oh, gosh, I need to kind of change how I'm thinking. So. So to pull this full circle, you know, if, if. And I'm sure we have managers at HMA who do both. Some people are doing this really well. Others probably come to you and say, hey, I need some help. Or maybe you notice that they need some help.

For a manager that's not doing any of this at all, where would they start?

Oh, gosh, I think you just have to get to know your team to start. You know, you mentioned, Rachel, that we just did the strengths finder as a leadership team. Right. And I think that that's a great start to really get to know each other and how we work and how we kind of default in our natural setting. Right? Meaning when it's stressful and volume gets high, when we're busy, when all those things are happening, you know, where do we get our energy from, where do we default? And so it makes total sense, right? That like. So for anyone listening, Rachel and I are like complete opposites. Like Rachel's top strength is my lowest strength. But that helps to know, right? Because now I get it more.

And it helps honestly to relate and to really build that understanding and that rapport with somebody when you understand where they're coming from and why they're relying on that strength or why they maybe don't look as engaged or interested, but you understand kind of where they're coming from and where their strengths are. So I think for any managers that are listening, really getting to know your team and look, maybe that sounds like that soft whatever HR nonsense that some people think of, but that is the core of leadership is communication, right? And getting to know your team so that you can understand what motivates them and how to engage them.

Yeah, actually, let me interrupt you right there. Can we. I just want to talk about this for a second because I actually wasn't in on the meeting, which is really funny. So apparently one of My top strengths is wooing. Like, I love to go into networking groups.

We were so surprised,

but, you know, like, I love being in a new environment, not knowing anybody and, like, work in a room and, like, just chatting with everybody, which I wasn't in on this meeting where we were talking about the strength finder because I was at one of our loan officers events talking and chatting with people. So that was kind of ironic. But it was really fascinating to see, and it's. There's no one strength is better than the other. I think it's really cool to see where your whole team fits along the spectrum. And I think for managers, too, to be able to plot everybody on this graph and see, oh, wow, we may. We may be missing, you know, an area right here where I don't even know what the. The strength might be that you would be missing, but it could show.

Yeah, no, that's a great point. Like, so. So for me, for example, easier. Easier for me to talk about up on this. But for me, for example, there are a couple of things that are not my strengths. Right. One of them is a total HR function. I am low when it comes to wooing, which would be like engaging in a broad population.

Right. Where everyone immediately kind of feels that comfort level. I'm also low in positivity.

And, like, you're very positive. It's interesting. You don't. I. I love the debate.

Yeah. When.

When. When. When a person either doesn't agree with their strength or they don't agree with the weakness or. I find that to be so interesting when you're like, wait a minute, that's not positive person.

Because I. I am. I'm. I am an idealistic person, meaning I always think things are gonna work out. Right. I'm always, like, looking for, okay, so this went wrong. That's okay. We'll take a new path and we'll fix it.

We're gonna get there. Which is. Is part of my. My strengths. But I don't lead with positivity. I'm much more realist, you know, realist in terms of how I. How I go into situations. And empathy is not low, but it is not high on my.

My list. It's kind of a mid. Mid Ranger. And so there are these soft HR skills that you think of, and you go, wow, that's kind of not. Not Vanessa. Right. And. And that's okay.

That's not who I am, as never been who I was. As an HR professional, I am much more adept with building deeper relationships as opposed to broader relationships. I like smaller groups as opposed to larger groups. Doesn't mean I can't build skill around, you know, talking in front of larger groups. But that's just not my default where I'm comfortable. Um, and in terms of hr, what I'm fantastic at according to my strengths is the architecture of it. It's building process. It's, you know, taking, you know, a structure that, or I guess a situation, an organization that's growing and changing just like HMA is today and going in and saying, okay, I can identify, you know, all of like where we need improvements and where we need process put in place.

And I'm, I, my strengths are within the architecture of building that. And so, and there's a lot of other different pieces in there too that's, you know, simplifying a lot. But I think it's funny that like when you think of those soft HR skills, you know, that's, that's never been me, it's never going to be me. And yet I've built my career in this, you know, in this world.

But one thing I thought, and on this topic, and again we recommend this book, right? It was an excellent exercise between our leadership team, but it's great for all teams, any branch manager, anybody who's leading a team. This book was a great find and a great conversation and a kind of a pause to connect and see how your team could be perceiving communication differently than you. And then also again, what Vanessa pointed on, what they lean on in times of heavy volume, heavy stress, what strengths are you going to in your top five or top 10, you know, so to speak. One thing I found was interesting that's

important here is self awareness, right? It's like being aware of what you're going to lean on when you're stressed or in times high volume or busy times. And maybe too what you need to build skill around or who you add from your team. So it's always been important for me to have someone on my team that is that very empathetic, very, you know, kind of person that leads with positivity and leads with, with woo like Rachel, right? That can, that can really speak to a broad audience and that's something that's very important for me in terms of creating a well rounded team. So I think as leaders, you know that that's helpful to be self aware and kind of understand where you're coming from.

And that was one of the learning exercises too, right? To be able to identify, hey, here's where my strengths are not. So it's it's important somebody else on my team has those streng.

Yes.

That was kind of how you're filling in the puzzle piece of. Of the exercise too, which I thought to be fascinating one from the direction

we want to go in. But I really love this and I stuff so I'll say it. And A.I. you know, is getting. I mean, it's ridiculous what A.I. can do today compared to two months ago. Right. I mean the capabilities is.

Is fascinating to me. But I actually took my strengths, all 34 of them, meaning that that's your weaknesses too, and threw them into AI with my job des and told it to analyze whether or not I'm the right match for my job and, and where I should or where I, you know, where maybe I'm not the best match. And the result was amazing. I geek out over this stuff so bad.

Oh, I want to do that now. You got two other students. You just got two other sleuths by telling us that Vanessa. I'm doing it, Rachel's doing it, and you're doing it at home when you get the strength finder friends for now,

I didn't do all 34. I guess I should. I should do all 34.

Go do all 34. I had to do it. I got roped in. I. I was on the call. I was addicted. I was drinking the Kool Aid and the next thing you know, I bought 49. I got all 34 of them.

And then of course I sent them right over to Andrew and Vanessa.

Yeah, this too. Because I really wanted, you know, to help because I was helping her. She was 18, and it's kind of helping her with some of her own growth and understanding herself and, and stuff. We, we did strengths finder together about a year ago. And her top is like Rachel. She woos. So I was like, Vanessa, I think

my 13 year old, I think he's heavy influencer, this guy. I want him to take it too. I mean, this guy could sell me anything. I mean it is like, you know, he came over, he saw some video. Guys, let's, let's have some fun with the story and we'll see what. What Rachel keeps and what Rachel drops here. I. He came over, a flash video comes on his phone.

Ladies that there's a free root beer float up at Chick Fil A. I had no interest in going to Chick Fil a. It's about 10 minutes from my house. This guy showed me the video. He's like five to seven. It's free, mom. There's not a Dollar coming out of your pocket. I said, yeah, but it's my time.

And he said, but this is quality time between you and I. This guy went on the hard pitch with me and he's so handsome. He's got the big gummy smile with the braces. Next thing you know, I'm taking him up there. Like, I'm like, I gotta have him take the time.

I have sucker written across my face.

Do you want to know the difference, Corinne?

He's persistent. He keeps coming. He shows the advantages. I mean, he really lays it out. I'm like, I gotta see what this guy's strengths are. I think I know where he'd fall. What were you gonna say, Rach?

You know, the difference is I'm the jerk who's like, my husband's making dinner. And I'm like, guys, it's free, it's free.

Come on, let's go. I'm the one.

I know he's a wooer. I'm pretty sure he's a wooer. I might be wrong.

Okay.

I'm really curious though. Okay. Just thought of something. This is really fascinating because. Yes, enter the scene. AI and everything is changing. And in a good way, and maybe in negative, maybe interesting way. I'm really curious to see and I hope it doesn't go down this path where, you know, companies maybe have people take these, these strength finder tests and then put people in based on just, just a category.

Yeah, you know, I. That's a really great point because what it doesn't tell you, Rachel, is I know, like, I've been doing this for a while now, right. So I know, and I'm very self aware as to where I'm not as strong. And so I've built skill around that. And, and I work really hard still, continuously. I'm not a finished product. Right. To build skill around those areas.

And I, and, and you're, like I said, wanting to build your team around instead of focusing all your energy on, well, I have to improve my weaknesses. Right. As a leader, you start to build a team where you have people that, that have strengths where you're weaker and you empower them as part of your team. Right. To do some of those, those functions and utilize those skills that you're not as strong in. And so you would never want as an employer to use only this. Right. And have somebody take an assessment and then throw it into AI with a job description and say, is this person going to be a match for this role or not? And then take only that because you're not seeing all the strength that person built.

Now, what you could see as an employer is to use this as one tool with many to say whether or not this person's going to be a great match within the team that is there, that's built, right? Or to build the rest of the team. So, for example, at hma, right, we could be looking across our HMA leadership team and saying, hey, guys, this whole section here in influencing or, you know, is a. Is not a strength for us as an organization. And so if we're going to bring in another leader, another executive or something, there's the other one. Maybe we want to bring in someone that is stronger in this area. And so you may be complimenting your team. I hired a member of my team, Megan Deason, so I'll call her out. And when I hired her, I had the role.

I was doing a personality assessment. We used predictive index at the time. And I actually. Megan doesn't know this story. Sorry, Megan. I actually liked another role, like, in terms of I connected with this other person. We were in an interview, right? And I connected with this other person and I, you know, really liked her. And we had great rapport and great conversation.

And then I also interviewed Megan and we had a great conversation. And. But the predictive index that we filled out, I realized I had this rapport and built. Had this great conversation with somebody because they were just like me. We connected, right? Like we were exactly the same. And with Megan, she filled in the gaps of all the places I needed someone on my team to fill in. And we still had a great rapport. And Megan's fantastic and she's actually been with me for several years now and she's with me at hma and I love her dearly, but she.

I need her because she fills in the gaps of what I need for my team.

That's really valuable information. I mean, that's really valuable information for leaders who are looking to maybe hire another team member or looking to expand. How can you use these tools to your advantage and not misuse them when evaluating, interviewing, assessing and determine is this person going to be a proper fit? That's a really great example that you just shared there, Vanessa, that I think

many could take away that look that the industry as a whole, right. The mortgage industry is going through so much change today. And I think it's really important that we recognize that and that we talk about it because, I mean, the transformation that this industry is going through and what it will look like a year from now, you Know, two years from now is completely different. And I think for, for organizations to still be, to still exist, to be honest, to not die, right, we have to, we have to change, we have to be open to change. We have to get our people through changes and through the transformation. And so that is, you know, I think that that's important that we're having the conversations around that and that we're talking about what our strategies are going to be not just for the tech. Okay, we're going to automate, we're going to put in AI, we're going to, you know, all these things, right? But how are we going to actually move the people from where we're at today to where we need them to be in the future in order to continue to be successful? And so there is a whole aspect of this transformation and of technology and of like these business strategies that I think a lot of companies are forgetting about. And that's the people, that we can't do it without the people.

And so in terms of where HR is going today, I think that's the direction it's more and more towards. How can we align our people strategy with our business strategy in order to continue to be successful as an organization?

That was awesome. I couldn't have wrapped that better myself. That was great and so true. And really you really just brought that home beautifully. Focusing on the people, the empowerment, the motivation, I mean all of that. And again, AI and everything else is a going to change. We're still going to be here and

our jobs are going to change for sure. Right? And I think about this all the time because I have two 19 year old girls who are in their first year of college and I'm like, you know, is what they're studying today going to, is it the right path, you know, for. Is AI going to take over that function? Is, you know, what is what they're studying today? Like how is that going to change in the future? And the truth is we don't really know. It's changing so fast and AI is so different today than it was even two months ago. The capabilities are so much stronger, but our jobs aren't going away, but they are going to change dramatically. And how we utilize technology and AI in the future is going to change the way we work. I think first of all, I enjoy these conversations but I think they're so important for all of us as leaders to have, as women to have. I think continuing to talk about where we're going as an industry, where we're going with an HMA and as a leadership team and then individually and personally how we want to continue to grow and to develop ourselves.

I, I heard this from someone else. I'm stealing it. It's not mine, but I am not a finished product and I never want to be like, I think I'm just at this point in my life now where, you know, it's really, really important to me to continue to grow and to continue to learn and back tying to that strengths finder in my top five is learner. So it makes sense. But I just think it's so important for all of us to, to continue to grow and to, you know, whether that's, whether that's education and school. It doesn't have to be formal, right? It could be reading, it could be podcasts, it could be just, you know, more self awareness and understanding ourselves. It could be through interactions we have with other people. But I think putting yourself out there and challenging yourself to be uncomfortable, right? To, to grow and to kind of put yourself in situations where, where maybe it is a little uncomfortable in order to grow, I think is really important.

And it's something that I want my kids to watch. And I am constantly telling my girls who are 19, I'm constantly telling them, I know it was uncomfortable, I know it felt awkward. I know you're scared. I know you want to skip that meeting because you're going to. You don't have anyone to go with you to the meeting and you're going to be by yourself. I know that, that, you know, whatever seems really scary and hard, but put yourself out there anyways and then celebrating with them, not the success of what happens, but just the success of having, you know, put themselves out there and challenged themselves. And you know, I hope that they're watching me a little bit and that that encourages them in some way.

I'm sure. How could it not? I mean, leading by example, it's one thing. And when we're telling people, but when we're in the trenches with them and we're were doing and, and walking the walk and talking the talk, I mean, and you just did this and, and went back to school. I imagine that to be a very different ball game than it was maybe the first time around because of the

so different. I, I have a master's degree, but I had, you know, like most people went straight through, right? Like you go from high school to college to, you know, graduate program. So I went back to school and got a graduate certificate in organizational behavior. And I did it for no real purpose. Like there Wasn't this, oh, wow. I really, I need this degree for my career or I, you know, I, if, if I take these classes, it's suddenly going to help advance me in some, some, you know, tangible way. It was more like I have to do something to jumpstart myself, like to going back to like finding a way to invest in yourself. And I had been through some tragedy and trauma in my life and was working with my girls to get through them, through that as well.

And they were teenagers and so we were, we were busy, we were grief stricken. We were, you know, really just leaning on each other for that. And you know, I was spending every ounce of energy I had in, in putting that into them and, and trying to maintain my career as well. And some part of me just snapped and I was like, you know what? It's time. Like, I have to do something for myself. I have to, to invest in myself in some way. And for me it just happened to be that. You know, someone told me about Harvard having this extension school, like online program and you can get a degree through there.

I chose to do the graduate certificate program, which is four courses in order to do that. And then I can use those to put towards if I wanted to continue with the degree. Don't know that I'm going to do that. But I did do four courses to get the graduate certificate. And it's been absolutely one of the most amazing decisions I've ever, ever made in my life for me and my growth.

So yeah, I'm so happy you shared that story because I feel like there's no, there's no better way for us to, to wrap than when we're talking about just finishing two days ago, International Women's Day. The story of the world Working woman continues. The conversation continues. And what a privilege to have Vanessa on to share her story specifically about something that she made a decision about for herself. Because again, in this conversation we talk about constantly the family, the drive, the career. We always have to take that moment and pause because if we are not investing in ourself and doing things for ourself, we will not grow. And the people around us in business and at home will not either. On that note, I want to thank you for joining us, Vanessa.

And I hope everybody follows us. Please like subscribe Share Lending Leadership the Creative Brief this has been a really awesome episode. Thank you so much, Vanessa. Thanks, Rach.

Thank you for having me. Bye guys.

Thanks guys.

Sa.