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Irina Shklovski (Part 2) on coming back from burnout, being enough, doing enough
Episode 8 • 1st November 2023 • Changing Academic Life • Geraldine Fitzpatrick
00:00:00 00:59:04

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Professor Irina Shklovski, University of Copenhagen, continues her powerful story about her academic burn-out experiences, returning to work and learning the dance of how to be enough and do enough. She discusses the push-and-pull between professional expectations and personal health, the value of reflection and self-awareness, how to establish work boundaries, and the crucial role of support from colleagues. We also touch on university funding, neoliberal culture in academia, and the importance of nurturing a balanced lifestyle which includes non-work related activities. The conversation ends with a call for change in academia, highlighting the need to redefine standards for success and manage the increasing pressures in academic cultures.

Overview:

[00:29] Episode introduction & recap Part 1

[04:53] Trying to plan

[06:29] Saying no and yes

[14:44] Value of professional help

[22:57] Tracking work

[32:10] Making time for rest

[40:24] Culture/structure influences

[49:39] Supporting students in what is enough

[54:46] Wrapping up

[59:04] End

Listen here for a version to follow the transcript linked directly to the audio

Related Links:

Pernille Bjørn 

 Kasper Hornbæk

Ridiculous Software

Toggle Track 

Haruki Murakami, What I talk about when I talk about running 



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Transcripts

Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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:

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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:

Welcome to part two of my

conversation with the Irina.

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I'll let her introduce herself

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here.

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Irina: My name is Irina Shklovsky.

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I'm at the University of Copenhagen,

in the Department of Computer Science,

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and a little bit in the Department of

Communication and a 20 percent guest

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appointment at Linköping University

in the Gender Studies Department.

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and If you try to do

everything, you will break.

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Geri: And as she shared so powerfully in

part one, she did break because she did

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try to do everything and she burnt out.

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We continue here in part two where

she talks about getting professional

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help and how she's trying to

practically manage her return to work

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The key thread is about

becoming much more self-aware.

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And that's self-aware about

paying attention to her own

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body and what it's telling her.

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And also about becoming more

aware about how much time work

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actually takes by tracking it.

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And becoming more aware of.

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Um, what she can actually

do realistically.

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And she talks in this about

learning to be enough and do enough.

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By taking time to reflect

on what's important.

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About saying yes and

no more strategically.

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And in particular, making

sure she says yes to her own

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needs for everyone's benefits.

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As she says in her own words.

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Irina: it's a balance and a dance of

trying to figure out what commitments

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I can manage, and what commitments I

believe are important, and for what.

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And a constant, fairly strong

awareness, you can't do everything

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Geri: We'll go on here now with part

two and let Irina tell her own story.

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A story that we recorded back

in June when we were both at a

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conference in Trondheim, Norway.

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And we'll pick up here a little

bit back from where we left off

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in part one, just for context.

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Irina: I realized I

needed to pay attention.

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But until I went on sick leave and

actually really paid attention,

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I really began to pay attention

to what was going on with me.

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And I realized I hadn't paid

attention to me for quite a long time.

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It's easy to ignore.

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And then I started noticing.

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When I was coming back, I was off

for about a month and a half, and

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then I started coming back, and

everybody was like, Don't come

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back too fast, come back slowly.

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I could tell when I was going too fast.

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I would suddenly get sick, I would

suddenly get these random inflammations, I

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suddenly, my body would just push me back.

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But because I was cautious,

I started noticing that.

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And I've learned.

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I've learned to pay attention.

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I've learned to be okay with being like,

okay, I can't say yes to things now.

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And I've also learned to try and

plan a little bit for times when I

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know that the pressure and the level

of demands is going to be high.

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Um, but I still struggle with

making sure I don't overdo things.

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The past me always thought that

something that I'm signed up

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for is going to be a good idea.

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[I know].

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The current me is not quite

so sure most of the time.

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Geri: You talked about, you try to

plan now, like one of the things

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you've learned is to recognize when

there may be coming up periods of

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increased pressure and planning more.

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What might that look like practically?

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Irina: So right now I'm looking at my

fall and I'm very clear on the fact

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that it's going to be very tough.

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Because again, the past me did not

plan very well, and the current

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me is very aware that suddenly

everything is happening this fall.

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Um, and I'm a little bit intimidated,

so now suddenly I'm like, Okay, I'm

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starting a new course, which means

I have to actually have Most of the

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core is designed and prepared, and

I need to get that done before July.

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That is extremely advanced for me.

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Geri: We are talking, early June here, so

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Irina: yes.

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That's extremely advanced for you

to even begin thinking about that.

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but it's because I know that if I can

get it done before July or sort of.

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That means that I will be able to deal

with the fact that I have my CHI Papers

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Chair this fall, I have three students

that want to write papers for CHI this

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fall, and I'm starting my 20 percent

position with Linköping in September.

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So, all of that will need to

happen all at the same time.

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So something needs to be done now.

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Some things really need to

be done and figured out now.

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Otherwise.

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Geri: You said before about learning

to, that you can't say yes to everything.

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And then you also talked about

your past you and your current you.

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So, even in saying yes to the Linköping

and some of the big fall commitments.

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Irina: I, you know, it's always a balance.

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There's certain things you want to do,

and opportunities come along, and you've

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wanted to do them, so you say yes.

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And then other opportunities

come along, and they just kind of

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have to happen at the same time.

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And eventually, you just kind of

find yourself in the situation.

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And so right now, I am extremely aware.

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I will be at my limit this fall.

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But it also means that my answer

to everything right now is no.

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From paper review and committee

commitments to, um, PhD dissertation

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examinations to everything else.

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It's just a no.

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And it's a no that is entirely I'm

entirely qualified and entirely justified

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in my mind, but it also is for the

first time I am feeling like it's a no

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that I do with complete lack of guilt.

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Geri: It's interesting that there can,

that there is guilt associated with no's.

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Irina: Always.

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I think there is partly guilt, because

when people ask, Uh, you want to help.

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And there is partly a feeling

of, or a fear of missing out.

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A fear of maybe this opportunity

will turn into something and you

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wouldn't miss that if you said yes.

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But it's also, I think our nos

are, we don't appreciate when

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other people say no to us.

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And so, when we say no to others, it is

certainly a similar kind of experience.

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Geri: Because you're aware of the human

cost of that no for the other person.

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Irina: Absolutely.

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And that's always a trade off.

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I think no's are ways of

us protecting ourselves.

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But, it's also a social cost.

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That you have to bear.

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Yeah.

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And it's a set of choices that we make.

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And sometimes I think, I wonder if I'm

making the right choice, if I said the

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right yeses and, and and the right nos.

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And you never know really.

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Geri: I was just gonna ask you do, are you

getting any sense of the criteria at all?

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Irina: No, but at least now I have.

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An extremely strong sense

of where my limits might be.

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And I know, I know, I

push them all the time.

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But I try very hard not to

push them too far out of shape.

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And I think that's also a process

and a learning experience.

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Geri: Sounds like you're

doing a dance with your body.

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Yeah.

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How are we going?

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Can we just do this a little bit more?

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There's another way of framing the

no's, which is, the saying the yeses.

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Like, in saying no to that,

what are you saying yes to?

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Irina: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And, but that's, again, there's always

a trade off of how do you know which

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yeses and no's are the right ones.

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And that's anybody's

guess most of the time.

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But, I guess, I've always said

that I, I've always known that

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I needed to be more strategic.

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I've never quite figured

out what that means.

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What means?

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[Sounds good].

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Sounds really good.

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I needed to be more thoughtful

about what are my goals.

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But then, sometimes that

feels incredibly selfish.

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And so it's a balance and a dance of

trying to figure out what commitments

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I can manage, and what commitments I

believe are important, and for what.

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And a constant, fairly strong

awareness, like there are certain

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things, you can't do everything.

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[You can't do everything].

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And so you have to make some

commitments and give up some others.

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And that's okay.

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And it's worthwhile spending

some time thinking about that.

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Because if you try to do everything, if

you try to lift everything, if you try

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to carry everything, you will break.

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Yeah.

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And it is not pretty.

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[Yeah, and you will drop everything].

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And you will drop everything.

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Yeah.

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And I was extremely lucky.

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I was so extremely lucky that I was

surrounded by people who caught me.

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Who caught things that I

dropped and it was okay.

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Not everything was okay.

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Certain things would have

gone better if I was there.

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Yeah, that's just how it is.

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[But have they still gone good

enough?] But they're okay.

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They're okay.

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And I realized that I Was in position

where I could do that and I'm

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extremely lucky that that happened But

also I put myself in that position.

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I put myself in the position where I

broke And I put myself in that position

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because I didn't pay attention to me To

the signals from my brain and my body

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Because I always felt that there was this

one other thing I just needed to finish.

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[And then it will].

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And then it will.

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And then it will.

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And so, now I try extremely hard

to be like, okay, you know what?

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I promised that I would

do this and this and this.

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And now I see that right now, I could

try to do this, but I'm extremely tired,

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and it's late, and actually, it'll be

okay if I close my laptop right now and

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not think about work until tomorrow.

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And to recognize that that's perfectly

fine, and to recognize that I can come

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back to my colleague and say, you know,

I promised you feedback on your, on

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your grant, and I promised you by today,

but I really wasn't able to get to it.

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When can I get it to you?

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And if not, I can't.

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[Yeah.

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Because you can't do it all].

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Sometimes you can't.

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And sometimes you promise

and you realize you can't.

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And then, it's better to just

come back and say, I actually,

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I'm sorry, I can't do it.

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Then try to do it anyway.

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Geri: You used the word

selfish a couple of times.

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Do you still think of this as selfish?

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Irina: I used to think of that

as selfish a lot more, and now

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I think it's self preservation.

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In the end, if I'm clear about

it, if I'm beyond tired and I'm

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still trying to do something, it's

never going to be good anyway.

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If I am working myself to the point where

I break, A lot more things will break.

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So it's just being a little

bit more honest about what it

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is that I'm capable of doing.

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With myself and with others.

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Geri: Yeah.

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And I, I like from what you said that

you just go back and say, like you're

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still holding yourself accountable to

the commitment that you made to them

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and you're just being honest about

where you're at and what you can do.

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Irina: Because I think

everybody understands that.

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And, yes, it's disappointing.

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But bloody hell, we all have limits.

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Geri: Yeah, yeah.

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Did you seek any professional

help at all during this time?

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Irina: Absolutely.

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So, my university also has this

insurance policy, where when

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you come into this, situation.

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You call essentially an emergency

number and they completely anonymously

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assign you, a therapist to speak to a

workplace therapist to help you work

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through what's there and what's needed.

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And it's completely free and it's

completely anonymous and it's kept

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completely separate from the university.

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It's just.

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Something that the insurance

does, so that's what I did.

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And I met a therapist who worked with me.

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Just to help me see what, what

to do and what I needed to do.

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And who actually helped me get to the

point where I just went on sick leave.

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He helped me realize

that that was possible.

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Geri: Right, so you needed, you needed

that help just to work through it,

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because the other half of you is keeping

up, but I can't because I've got all

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these commitments and responsibilities

and three PhD students and, and, and.

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Irina: Yeah, and, and,

That was extremely helpful.

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in Denmark too, um, I went to my doctor,

in order to go officially on sick leave,

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you have to go to your doctor, and my

doctor took one look at me and said, Yes.

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Ha ha ha.

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Geri: You've been to the doctor and

the doctor had said, Yes, you need to

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Irina: go on sick leave.

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And insisted on it very strongly.

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And then the occupational therapy,

you only get so many visits.

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But in the meantime, I, um, my doctor

had, uh, prescribed regular therapy.

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Um, so, I got a regular therapist

and finished the occupational

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therapy and went to that.

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Um, and that was extremely helpful to

just begin working through recognizing,

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um, just my tendency to ignore myself

and do all these things and get

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excited about things and kind of just.

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Spread myself too thin and, figure

out how to cope with that and

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begin to get some ways of thinking

and reflecting that can help.

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Um, and essentially doing some exercises

of just like, rather than thinking

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about all these things I want to achieve.

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Paying much more attention to what

I actually do, and how much of it.

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Because I find actually a lot of times we

always feel like we haven't done enough.

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Mhm.

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And it's useful, like at the end

of the week just looking back and

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being like, What did I actually do?

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And it turns out you do a lot.

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A lot of it isn't something

you count as work.

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But it all kind of counts.

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And it takes a while to then figure

out, okay, of what you do, what

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is it that you want to continue?

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What is important?

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How do you figure out space and

time to do more of one thing

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and maybe less of the other?

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Um, what kinds of commitments got

you to something that you weren't

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happy with and weren't happy to do?

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And what kinds of commitments

got you something that was more?

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Generative and nourishing and

useful and, and maybe fun.

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I think we don't do enough fun.

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Enough fun.

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We don't do enough fun,

we definitely don't.

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Geri: That sounds like something that

also needs paying attention to your body.

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[Right].

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Or how, or how do you recognize what are

the things that are generative for you?

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Irina: When you look at it and you re and

I think for me, I look at it and I decide

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okay, what if this is just something that

is that something I'd love to do again?

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Is that something that I feel went well?

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Is that something that

I actually enjoy doing?

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Um, or is that something that's

going to lead to something else?

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And do I want to go there?

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Sometimes you don't.

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And Some things you just need

to give it a chance, right?

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You're doing something, you start a

series of meetings with people, and

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it doesn't really work for a while,

maybe you need to give it a chance.

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Some things...

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I, um...

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I started, uh, I started doing these

projects with students, um, doing

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Ridiculous Software, which is a

little fun project that I really like.

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And I love the project, the Ridiculous

Software project, and it attracts...

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[It's called Ridiculous Software Project].

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Ridiculous Software, um, In fact,

we have a website called Ridiculous.

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software.

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But I also tried to do it with, uh,

with master's students and they,

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and they started showing up, because

they thought it would be fun to do

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it sort of as a little project, so

as part of their master's education.

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And at first I thought it would be really

fun, and I kind of enjoyed them, and

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then I realized it was a lot of effort.

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But not a lot of return.

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Because they were treating it

as something like, Ah, we'll

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just do something ridiculous.

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Which, the whole point is

building software that is...

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weird and upsets your expectations

of what software is supposed to do

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and on doing something the opposite.

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So I had a student that just built um,

an extension, a Chrome extension that

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would attempt to recommend as you watch

YouTube, it will attempt to recommend

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you, YouTube videos that you would hate.

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I had a student that built something

that would randomly remind you

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on your phone to breathe out.

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Just remember to breathe out.

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It's sort of like a mindfulness exercise.

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And they're fun.

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But I also found that I didn't have enough

of a setup to get them to do that well.

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They weren't doing them particularly well.

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It was taking a lot of my time.

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And then I realized, okay,

I can't run them this way.

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This is fun.

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But it can't continue this way.

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So, if I want to do this, then I'm

actually going to have to take a break

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from this for a little while, figure

out an infrastructure where they can

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come in and what do they need to read,

how do they need to do things, how do

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they need to organize, so it's all a

little bit more structured, um, rather

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than just these exploratory little

projects, so that it doesn't take as

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much time for me as it was taking.

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And normally I would just

continue because, oh my god,

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these students are so interested.

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But suddenly I said, okay, no,

no more, no more for a while.

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I can't, I can't take anymore.

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I will come back to this.

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And student will continue being

interested in this, I think.

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The name is fun.

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But, oh, I need to, I

can't do it this way.

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I, I actually need to.

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I need to do this differently.

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I need to be much more systematic,

much more careful about how

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much time I, I put into this.

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[So this is a new you].

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That is.

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And it feels sometimes, like, wait,

but this is kind of working, the

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students are showing up, what if

I stop and they won't show up?

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But on the other hand, I'm like, no,

actually, no, no, this is not working.

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It's not working for me and it's in

the same way not working for them.

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Geri: Do you have a deliberate

practice of sitting down?

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This is a highly reflective process that

you're talking about, both in trying to

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detect the patterns about what are you

enjoying doing that you find generative,

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that you want to do more of, and things

that you might want to do less of.

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So it's highly reflective.

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Do you have any particular

practices to support that?

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Like do you sit down at the

piece of paper and for 10

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minutes or is it just a mindset?

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Irina: Some of it is a mindset,

but some of it is just silly

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things like, um, I have a...

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So, one of my colleagues

recommended Toggl Track as one

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of these little toggle things.

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Because we always complain that we work

all the time and I wanted to figure

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out, do I actually work all the time?

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What do I do?

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How do I do it?

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And I have this, I run it as a

little desktop thing where, it

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actually sort of tracks what I...

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which I use and I can sort of put in, um,

Oh, well this I was working on CHI or this

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I was working on this project or this I

was teaching, this I was Um, and then I

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can sort of track time used for things.

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And I tracked for a few months.

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Not for like how many hours am

I working, am I working enough?

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I noticed that actually immediately.

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Immediately I was I suddenly was like,

well, I worked 47 hours this week.

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And I was like, oh my god, no really?

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Are we back to that?

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But then I realized that

it's not about the number of

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hours I was working in total.

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It was about, actually, it gave me

suddenly a much more visceral overview.

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of how much time things actually take.

370

:

Mm hmm.

371

:

And once you realize that, you

begin to understand that when

372

:

you say yes to things, it comes

with specific amounts of time.

373

:

And remember, time's not stretchy.

374

:

Really not stretchy.

375

:

So when you are committing to things

that in fact will take 40 hours in

376

:

that week, you will end up working

60 because there's 20 hours of

377

:

that other stuff that will come up.

378

:

That will just need to be attended

to, done, responded to, immediately.

379

:

And unless you are clear with

yourself, of what you're doing,

380

:

but figuring out how much time

things take is extremely difficult.

381

:

So I said, okay, I'm going to

spend, so the last, like, four

382

:

months I've been tracking.

383

:

And I've been tracking in a way

where, because there's been CHI, and

384

:

there's been all these other events,

and so things are, so that I can get

385

:

a much better sense of just how much

time am I spending in all of this.

386

:

And it allows me Again, it

gives me a sense of saying no.

387

:

When do I say yes and when do I say no?

388

:

It gives me a better expectation of

how much time am I committing to.

389

:

This is why I know my fall is

going to be very difficult.

390

:

Because I know how much

time I've committed to.

391

:

But it also actually gives me a sense

of certainty about what to expect.

392

:

Which I never really had before.

393

:

So before you would just say,

you would say, would you do this?

394

:

Yeah, I'll do that.

395

:

Okay, I'll do that.

396

:

Oh, my June seems a little bit looser.

397

:

I'll do that then.

398

:

And then you realize you've overcommitted.

399

:

So how do you not overcommit?

400

:

Oh, I really need to figure

out what I want to do.

401

:

But how?

402

:

I need to know about how

much time things take.

403

:

You need to think about

where you want to go.

404

:

You need to figure out why it's so hard

to say no to some things and not others.

405

:

And you need to figure out whether that

is something you need to rethink or not.

406

:

Yeah.

407

:

What are our commitments?

408

:

Are those commitments the ones

we actually want to uphold?

409

:

Or do we want to rethink them?

410

:

My god, that takes a

lot of time and effort.

411

:

And actually, I needed to give myself

time to do all that thinking too.

412

:

That doesn't come right away.

413

:

Geri: Do you mean the time or the

ability to do that thinking?

414

:

Irina: The ability to do that thinking and

the space and time to do that thinking.

415

:

Right?

416

:

The ability is at a certain point,

you actually have to learn how to

417

:

reflect and be like, Is that okay?

418

:

And at first it takes a long

time to figure that out.

419

:

And then it's less.

420

:

Because you've gained the skill.

421

:

Reflection is also a skill.

422

:

And we're super reflective,

but reflecting on ourselves is

423

:

a completely different skill.

424

:

Which is funny.

425

:

You would never expect that.

426

:

You would think a scholar that's done

deep qualitative work and quantitative

427

:

work and have written things about all

kinds of stuff would know how to reflect.

428

:

And then thinking about your own

life, you just realize that it's

429

:

a completely different skill.

430

:

And you still have to learn about that.

431

:

But somehow, because it's just

you, it doesn't seem like you

432

:

never ever have enough time for it.

433

:

[But it's okay to prioritize you].

434

:

It turns out if you prioritize

you, at least occasionally,

435

:

everybody else benefits too.

436

:

Geri: Yeah.

437

:

I think that's a really

key point, isn't it?

438

:

Irina: And it turns out if you

don't prioritize you, eventually

439

:

everybody loses because you break.

440

:

[Yeah.

441

:

So that's more selfish in a way].

442

:

Yeah.

443

:

It is.

444

:

Because for a while before you break,

you are going to be producing things that

445

:

are never going to be your best work.

446

:

And you're never going to be like,

that was really good, because I

447

:

could have done better, but my head

didn't really have a brain then.

448

:

And that's worse.

449

:

So, there's another thing though, is

that, I think, one thing I'm trying to

450

:

correct right now and figure out how to

deal with, is that, I still overcommit.

451

:

It's just a knee jerk reaction.

452

:

I just overcommit to things.

453

:

I need to stop overcommitting.

454

:

But, I also need to figure out

how to not appear to everyone

455

:

like I'm incredibly busy.

456

:

I am.

457

:

But, I think it's become kind of

like a pathology, where people are

458

:

starting to write to me, I know

you're incredibly busy, but...

459

:

Geri: Say more about that.

460

:

What do you mean by appearing to be busy.

461

:

Irina: I think busyness is something

that, to me, it's becoming, at least

462

:

in my case, if I begin to appear

really busy to everybody, it means

463

:

I've completely overcommitted.

464

:

Geri: Okay, so it's more that if people

are reading you as being busy, then, oops.

465

:

Irina: Then I'm definitely in it.

466

:

So if I start getting email from

people and saying, I know you're

467

:

incredibly busy, but, Like, oh,

I think I'm overdoing things.

468

:

I need to go back.

469

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

470

:

So using their observation of you

as another source of feedback.

471

:

Irina: Because I suddenly realized

that I don't like appearing incredibly

472

:

intensely busy all the time to people

and I don't, I hope that I don't.

473

:

But I think when we get stressed

out, we get over committed.

474

:

We stop having enough space and time

to just have a coffee with a colleague.

475

:

To step in and say hello.

476

:

We just rush past.

477

:

And we appear busy to everybody

because we don't have time to breathe.

478

:

Geri: And connect.

479

:

I mean the two things that you

just said there, about coffee with

480

:

a colleague, stopping in to say

hello, is about time to connect.

481

:

Irina: And, and then you realise

that suddenly, I realise at least,

482

:

that suddenly I am making a choice

between either having a coffee with

483

:

a colleague, Or, doing something for

myself, that is a wrong calculus.

484

:

I should have time for both.

485

:

I've overcommitted.

486

:

And so right now I think I'm going through

this process of trying to figure out how

487

:

much commitment is okay and is enough.

488

:

And that's a really It's a process.

489

:

Geri: Yeah Are you still

getting help like still seeing

490

:

a therapist or someone just to?

491

:

Sense check this with?

492

:

Irina: Yeah, I am and I realized because

apparently I need an external opinion

493

:

Geri: Yeah Because I think

that we all do in a way

494

:

Irina: I need somebody to

tell me that you know I am.

495

:

I am.

496

:

And I am also keenly aware

that, I'm not fully recovered.

497

:

It takes years to recover from

the level of burnout that I had.

498

:

and I have to be very

careful because that was bad.

499

:

Mm-hmm.

500

:

And, but that was bad because I have

the tendency to overcommit, to get

501

:

overexcited to decide that I wanna

do everything and be everything and

502

:

participate in these public events and

write papers with all of my students.

503

:

And needing to create a new course

and do this all at the same time

504

:

because it all seems important.

505

:

It all seems valuable and it is.

506

:

It is.

507

:

It is, but in the end,

there's only one of me.

508

:

And with all of this valuable stuff,

I forget I also need time to go for a

509

:

bike ride, to go to a yoga class, to

actually take time and go for a walk

510

:

in the forest and not think about work.

511

:

Maybe go watch a movie.

512

:

And not feel guilty about it.

513

:

And it's like, one of my friends said,

You know, rest is only restful if

514

:

you're not feeling guilty about resting.

515

:

Because if you're feeling

guilty about resting, your

516

:

nervous system is not resting.

517

:

It's freaking out.

518

:

And then it's not rest at all.

519

:

And I think in academia we'd feel guilty

about not working when we're doing

520

:

anything other than working a lot.

521

:

And that just makes things worse.

522

:

Geri: Mmm.

523

:

Yeah.

524

:

So it sounds like that's

a journey as well.

525

:

In learning that it's okay

to rest, genuinely rest.

526

:

Irina: Not just okay, it's imperative.

527

:

It's crucial, and if you don't...

528

:

Geri: So you talked about some

practices like yoga and bike riding

529

:

and going for a walk in the forest.

530

:

Are you able to build them

in, in a structured way?

531

:

Or how do you manage other aspects

of your life beyond work now?

532

:

Irina: So I've realized, um,

actually, I read Haruki Murakami's,

533

:

What I Talk About When I Talk About

Running, which is a lovely book.

534

:

It's a bit of a memoir.

535

:

And he says something in

that book, you know, pain is

536

:

inevitable, suffering is optional.

537

:

I quite like that.

538

:

And he also says something in that book

that once you commit to something, you're

539

:

cutting out other things in your life.

540

:

Again, so if I want to, if I realize

I can't just do my job, which involves

541

:

reading and writing and thinking

and engaging with people and giving

542

:

talks and doing all of that all

the time, that's not good for me.

543

:

I need other things.

544

:

That means I have to

create space for that.

545

:

If I want to seriously, ride my

bike and get good at that, there's

546

:

only so many other things I can fit.

547

:

Maybe that's also my social activity.

548

:

Maybe I out prioritize

this over other things.

549

:

I think...

550

:

So now I'm very careful about it.

551

:

Okay.

552

:

I will protect times in my day

and in my week where I will do the

553

:

things that are other than work

because they are important too.

554

:

I will block them out on my calendar

so that nobody can schedule anything

555

:

in those days and in those times and it

doesn't matter what else is happening.

556

:

[Non negotiables].

557

:

They're non negotiables.

558

:

They have to be there.

559

:

Because otherwise, it's

really easy to give that up.

560

:

And, I have a family, and I have

things I want to do outside of work,

561

:

and I have lots of things I want to

do at work, and there's only one of

562

:

me, and I have to be careful about it.

563

:

Yeah.

564

:

It only took me a few

decades to figure it out.

565

:

It seems like an obvious thing, though.

566

:

Geri: And it's a life long.

567

:

It is a lifelong learning, isn't it, to

continually negotiate those trade offs

568

:

about what you're saying yes and no to.

569

:

Irina: It's always about how

do you keep balance, I think.

570

:

But it's also recognizing that over

time, you will need different things.

571

:

And you will need different amounts

of work or time with your family or

572

:

doing something physical or going for

walks or spending time with friends,

573

:

it will change and that's okay too.

574

:

You just need to recognize that

those changes are necessary.

575

:

Geri: Again, it's that space to step

back and to give yourself time to

576

:

reflect in order to recognize as well.

577

:

It's all part and parcel of it.

578

:

Irina: Yeah, I think it's also

a process of recognizing your

579

:

limits and being okay with them.

580

:

I have colleagues that

are incredibly good.

581

:

Every Monday they sit down, they

write down all of their tasks for

582

:

the week, and then they go through

and systematically go through it.

583

:

And I think it's amazing.

584

:

I cannot do that.

585

:

That is just not something

that I, that works for me.

586

:

I am fairly disorganized.

587

:

I'm lots of last minute.

588

:

I have many limits.

589

:

I have many shortcomings.

590

:

But as long as I recognize that they're

there, and I build a few things that

591

:

kind of mitigate some of them, it's okay.

592

:

And my colleagues come to me and say,

you know, like, you'll be organizing a

593

:

winter school in Copenhagen for the Decode

Project, which we will do in January.

594

:

And I realize, organizing

is not my strong suit.

595

:

So my solution to this is, I need

to hire somebody to do that for me.

596

:

[Very nice].

597

:

Because clearly, it's not going to be

me, because if I try to do it, it will

598

:

take me enormous amounts of time, it will

stress me out, and I am terrible at it.

599

:

And I know.

600

:

And so, instead of trying to do it

myself, I'm going to try and figure

601

:

out how I'm going to accomplish this.

602

:

Without making it the

thing that breaks me.

603

:

[Lovely].

604

:

Recognising that is key.

605

:

Geri: Yeah.

606

:

That, that self awareness

about it's not my strength.

607

:

Also, the self awareness that someone

else can be very good and structured

608

:

at organising their to do lists at the

beginning of the week, but that's not you.

609

:

And, that's okay.

610

:

Like, it's not that you're not

measuring up to their standards.

611

:

You're just different.

612

:

Irina: Yeah.

613

:

And it takes a while to figure that out.

614

:

It takes a while to figure out

all of our brains are different.

615

:

And they all function differently.

616

:

And they all need

slightly different things.

617

:

And it works for one person,

will not work for another person.

618

:

And sometimes, when we're

stressed and we're tired, we

619

:

can get upset at each other.

620

:

And you're like, why can't

you just do it this way?

621

:

It makes sense.

622

:

Geri: I could keep talking

forever because I just think

623

:

there's so much, to explore here.

624

:

Just two things, if we can.

625

:

One is, you're to met all the work that

you're doing and necessarily needing to

626

:

do for yourself, both to get yourself.

627

:

back on the path and to try to

develop practices and habits

628

:

and, and whatever that are more

sustainable for you for the long term.

629

:

And you're operating within

a broader cultural context.

630

:

And it sounds like you've just had

amazingly supportive colleagues and

631

:

department, which is really to be

commended, you know, good on all of them.

632

:

More generally, structurally, what are the

things that you think may be contributed

633

:

to and could be changed to stop this

happening for other people or that it

634

:

may have helped you in another universe?

635

:

Irina: I mean, I live in Denmark,

which means I live in a country

636

:

where there has been enormous

attention to workplace stress.

637

:

And the very idea that people need

support through workplace stress, and

638

:

that is something that is an issue,

has been around for quite a while.

639

:

I also live in a place where the idea

of work life balance is important,

640

:

although nobody's ever quite really

sure how you're supposed to achieve it.

641

:

Um, but I live in a place where if

my kid gets sick and I have a bunch

642

:

of meetings where even I'm teaching

a course and I see my kid is sick

643

:

and everybody's like, that's fine.

644

:

Do what's important.

645

:

And that's the fact that your

kid is sick, that's important.

646

:

Not the meetings, not the

class, everything else.

647

:

Which is incredibly unusual.

648

:

I come from the U.

649

:

S.

650

:

It took me years to just actually

even take any of that on board.

651

:

To accept that this kind of way

of treating people is possible.

652

:

Where my doctor says, Yes,

you should go on sick leave.

653

:

And I say, Do I need

something to show my employer?

654

:

And he says, No.

655

:

If they want something

from me, they can call me.

656

:

And they have to pay me.

657

:

I told you to go on sick leave.

658

:

You just tell them I told

you to go on sick leave.

659

:

And go on sick leave.

660

:

And my employer says, of course,

you should go on sick leave.

661

:

And here we'll have a meeting

at this time when we decide how

662

:

slowly you're going to come back.

663

:

Please don't go back too quickly.

664

:

Geri: So even working in this

incredibly supportive environment

665

:

and with the structures in place.

666

:

So is that saying that a lot of the

pressures were coming from within?

667

:

Because, you did talk about they're

things that you get excited about it?

668

:

Irina: I think a lot of the

pressure comes from within.

669

:

A lot of the pressure also comes from

the fact that I've been socialized and,

670

:

in the US where this kind of set of

expectations is completely different.

671

:

And so when you're treated like a

valuable human being at your workplace,

672

:

it's sometimes initially shocking.

673

:

And that's horrible in this first place.

674

:

Right.

675

:

Um,

676

:

I think there is something about

the feeling here in Denmark

677

:

that I'm entitled to this.

678

:

And everybody's accepted that.

679

:

That's how it is.

680

:

That then takes the pressure off.

681

:

That when this happens,

it's not somehow my fault.

682

:

That I have to then somehow atone for.

683

:

That this is just life.

684

:

Yeah.

685

:

And things will go the way they go.

686

:

And I think all of that

is really important.

687

:

Yeah.

688

:

And, as it is, we...

689

:

I don't know, I find that most

academics are incredibly self driven.

690

:

And do crazy things like...

691

:

Alright, I think I'm just going to pull an

all nighter and write this grant proposal.

692

:

We all do that occasionally,

even though sometimes we feel

693

:

like we should know better.

694

:

And so, I think in many ways,

it can be easy to fall into the

695

:

sense of like pushing yourself

more and more and more and more.

696

:

At the very least, I had the

infrastructure surround me.

697

:

To be like, no, actually

it's okay if you don't.

698

:

Geri: So when you did fall down you had

support net, you had some safety nets and

699

:

Irina: Not only that, that safety

net did not expect me to get up

700

:

and start running again they said

me to start by walking slowly and

701

:

Then they always, they keep saying

things like, are you sure about this?

702

:

Because there's this acceptance

of like, you do enough.

703

:

And yes, of course, there's huge pressure

to get funding, there's pressure to

704

:

publish, you need to do things here and

there, and yet at the same time, there

705

:

is an understanding of what's enough and

how to provide you support to do enough.

706

:

Geri: It's such an

important word, isn't it?

707

:

Enough.

708

:

I just had a conversation with someone

who was at a course I ran for early

709

:

career researchers where we talked about

saying yes, no, and Also making those

710

:

choices about how to do more of the things

that are generative, that are fun, or

711

:

that where you feel like you can make

a difference, or that are important.

712

:

And we talked about, you know, like for

some of the other things, good enough.

713

:

And the fight that people have in their

heads that good enough sounds like it's

714

:

sloppy or a compromise, but it's not.

715

:

It's enough.

716

:

You do enough.

717

:

I love that people say that to you.

718

:

That's just so affirming.

719

:

Irina: And I think we're used to pushing

harder and comparing ourselves to others.

720

:

And it's, we are in a business where

we're constantly compared to others.

721

:

So nothing's ever enough.

722

:

It needs to be top.

723

:

It needs to be perfect.

724

:

It needs to be best.

725

:

[If you're comparing to others].

726

:

Because you're always compared to others.

727

:

How do you win a grant?

728

:

Because you're best.

729

:

Right?

730

:

Everything is that.

731

:

So no wonder, no wonder you constantly

push yourself, because you have

732

:

to be better, more, whatever.

733

:

And at some point you need to figure

out how much is enough, because if you

734

:

don't, how are you going to continue?

735

:

It's not sustainable.

736

:

As it is, if you look at it, what

was enough just two decades ago in

737

:

academia is not nearly enough now.

738

:

Geri: So that's something we

need to change because we can't

739

:

keep escalating this forever.

740

:

that's not sustainable.

741

:

Irina: Well, we're all operating

within a space where the

742

:

amount of funding is shrinking.

743

:

Um, the competitiveness of

our grants is increasing.

744

:

Um, at this point for some grants,

the funding rates are so low

745

:

that it's practically random.

746

:

And yet, when you do get funded, people

think, Oh, because you're the best.

747

:

Well, you're good.

748

:

Yeah.

749

:

And you got lucky.

750

:

Yeah.

751

:

And that's a horrible thing.

752

:

Because it's, it's so

intense at this point.

753

:

And we really need to figure

out how to change that dynamic.

754

:

[We need new funding models].

755

:

We need new funding models.

756

:

We need to figure out how to

manage the neoliberal university.

757

:

Um, how to acknowledge that the standards

that we set are constantly going up.

758

:

And if we look at ourselves, and what

it took then to do, what it's taking now

759

:

to do, those are shifting, increasing.

760

:

Um, and to critically consider what is

really success, and where are we going.

761

:

Geri: Yeah.

762

:

So, my last question is then, How,

what are the conversations like with

763

:

your students around all this, knowing

that they are still operating in this

764

:

environment as it is now, having gone

through your own experiences, how are

765

:

you helping them navigate their choices?

766

:

Irina: So one of the things I'm

very well aware of is that my taking

767

:

time off affected my students.

768

:

It couldn't not.

769

:

They did fine, but it would have

been better if I were there.

770

:

And in part this has to do with

complex projects that they're a

771

:

part of, and the different ways

that things have worked out.

772

:

Um, But that's just how it is.

773

:

And so, each student is different,

I think, and they all have different

774

:

needs, and they all need different

ways, different forms of support.

775

:

But because I'm extremely aware

of how easy it is to just push,

776

:

push, push, I try to be very clear

about what just, what is enough.

777

:

What needs to be accomplished.

778

:

And if you get more, that's great.

779

:

Because, you know, at a certain point

when I was writing my PhD, I realized

780

:

I'm not writing the dissertation.

781

:

I'm writing a dissertation.

782

:

Because it just needs to finish.

783

:

It just needs to be done.

784

:

And it also means that my students

will want to write the dissertation.

785

:

That's normal when you're halfway

through your PhD and you believe

786

:

you're going to change the world.

787

:

Sometimes you might.

788

:

But the dissertation is a form of

perfectionist that's not good for anyone.

789

:

So we work very hard on a dissertation.

790

:

On what's enough.

791

:

I work very hard on making

sure my students have options.

792

:

I talk to them about where it is that

they want to go, what they want to do,

793

:

and we talk about what needs to be in

place for them to have those options.

794

:

And now I'm going to start trying to get

funding so I can offer them some postdocs

795

:

because three year PhDs are brutal.

796

:

But, given that, then the

question is, what's enough?

797

:

If I have a student that says, you know, I

think this is fantastic and I love doing a

798

:

PhD, but after that I'm going to industry

because I can't deal with academia.

799

:

Okay.

800

:

What industry?

801

:

Do we need an internship?

802

:

Do we need to figure out

who do we need to talk to?

803

:

I have a student that really wants

to stay in academia and this is

804

:

where she wants to be and this is...

805

:

This is her thing.

806

:

Okay, where do we need to publish?

807

:

Which audiences do we need to talk to?

808

:

How do we set you up to read, to be read

by those audiences in a way that can

809

:

begin to make you that kind of scholar?

810

:

And what's enough?

811

:

Geri: So that's being strategic.

812

:

Yeah, you said before

about being strategic.

813

:

What does that mean?

814

:

That's certainly...

815

:

Lovely strategic thinking, shaping choices

that the students can be making now.

816

:

Irina: When you have a three year

PhD, if you don't make those choices,

817

:

I think it's just irresponsible.

818

:

You don't have time to change your mind.

819

:

And sometimes students do.

820

:

But then it's very, very

difficult to switch.

821

:

Geri: Yes.

822

:

Is there anything we haven't...

823

:

talked about that you'd just

like to add or any, or any

824

:

final thoughts or reflections?

825

:

Irina: I'm always at odds

with the academic career.

826

:

On the one hand, I think it's brilliant.

827

:

You get to think about things and

read because it's kind of amazing.

828

:

That's part of our job.

829

:

And write, and argue, and

have amazing conversations

830

:

with incredibly smart people.

831

:

And we travel a lot, and we know people

all over the world, and it's amazing.

832

:

But there's some days where I just

want a job where I can just do the job

833

:

and go home and not think about it.

834

:

And I realized that sometimes

I just have to do that.

835

:

Sometimes I have to treat my academic

career as a job for a little while.

836

:

And that's okay too.

837

:

Geri: Yeah, that's definitely okay.

838

:

Wow.

839

:

Irina: Thank you for letting

me talk about all of this.

840

:

Geri: Thank you for being

vulnerable enough to share.

841

:

I can imagine it will help a lot

of people just go, ah, it's okay.

842

:

That they're okay, that they may be

feeling this, or that they're okay, that

843

:

they might just need to say, I can't do it

anymore for the moment and to step back.

844

:

Irina: I would not have been able to

go through that quite as well as I did.

845

:

If I didn't have a conversation

with Pernille Bjørn about

846

:

it, which she said, I fell.

847

:

And they caught me.

848

:

Try it.

849

:

It's okay.

850

:

I would not have been able

to do it without that.

851

:

[Someone's giving you

permission just to be human].

852

:

When I walked into Kasper's office

and he said okay, and the next week I

853

:

wasn't teaching anymore, I was in shock.

854

:

I was in complete and utter shock.

855

:

That that was possible [That people

would be supportive] that that that he

856

:

would do that and it was possible to

do and it would just happen like that

857

:

Geri: And may we all do that for each

other just being there reassuring and

858

:

saying that it's okay So all the very

best navigating your fall and making

859

:

ongoing choices that prioritise you

so that you can bring your wonderful

860

:

best self to making the difference

you want to make in the research

861

:

that you're doing, in the work.

862

:

So thank you Irina.

863

:

Irina: Thank you for letting me have

this, for being part of your project too.

864

:

I've been listening to them a lot and so

it's kind of amazing to be part of it.

865

:

[I'm really glad you are, thank you].

866

:

Thank you.

867

:

Geri: What a compelling story.

868

:

I'm so grateful to Irina

for her vulnerability and

869

:

honesty in sharing with us.

870

:

It's a salient reminder that

if we want to be here in the

871

:

longer term, doing great work.

872

:

We need to be much more reflective

about the pressures we might

873

:

be putting ourselves under.

874

:

And make sure that we

look after ourselves now.

875

:

And this can involve often

making wise and hard choices.

876

:

It's also a salient reminder that

burnout doesn't happen in a vacuum.

877

:

What we do at faculty

department group level matters.

878

:

For how we support one another.

879

:

And how we talk about

these sorts of issues.

880

:

And of course there are also the

bigger structural issues, especially

881

:

around our performance-based academic

cultures that need to change.

882

:

If we are to better

support wellbeing at scale.

883

:

So take care.

884

:

Take a break.

885

:

And remember you are enough.

886

:

You do enough And it is good enough

887

:

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

888

:

links for this podcast on www.

889

:

changingacademiclife.

890

:

com.

891

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,,

892

:

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

893

:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

894

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

895

:

we can do academia differently.

896

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

897

:

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

898

:

with your colleagues together.

899

:

We can make change happen.

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