Professor Irina Shklovski, University of Copenhagen, continues her powerful story about her academic burn-out experiences, returning to work and learning the dance of how to be enough and do enough. She discusses the push-and-pull between professional expectations and personal health, the value of reflection and self-awareness, how to establish work boundaries, and the crucial role of support from colleagues. We also touch on university funding, neoliberal culture in academia, and the importance of nurturing a balanced lifestyle which includes non-work related activities. The conversation ends with a call for change in academia, highlighting the need to redefine standards for success and manage the increasing pressures in academic cultures.

Overview:

[00:29] Episode introduction & recap Part 1

[04:53] Trying to plan

[06:29] Saying no and yes

[14:44] Value of professional help

[22:57] Tracking work

[32:10] Making time for rest

[40:24] Culture/structure influences

[49:39] Supporting students in what is enough

[54:46] Wrapping up

[59:04] End

Listen here for a version to follow the transcript linked directly to the audio

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Pernille Bjørn 

 Kasper Hornbæk

Ridiculous Software

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Haruki Murakami, What I talk about when I talk about running 

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Welcome to part two of my

conversation with the Irina.

6

I'll let her introduce herself

7

here.

8

Irina: My name is Irina Shklovsky.

9

I'm at the University of Copenhagen,

in the Department of Computer Science,

10

and a little bit in the Department of

Communication and a 20 percent guest

11

appointment at Linköping University

in the Gender Studies Department.

12

and If you try to do

everything, you will break.

13

Geri: And as she shared so powerfully in

part one, she did break because she did

14

try to do everything and she burnt out.

15

We continue here in part two where

she talks about getting professional

16

help and how she's trying to

practically manage her return to work

17

The key thread is about

becoming much more self-aware.

18

And that's self-aware about

paying attention to her own

19

body and what it's telling her.

20

And also about becoming more

aware about how much time work

21

actually takes by tracking it.

22

And becoming more aware of.

23

Um, what she can actually

do realistically.

24

And she talks in this about

learning to be enough and do enough.

25

By taking time to reflect

on what's important.

26

About saying yes and

no more strategically.

27

And in particular, making

sure she says yes to her own

28

needs for everyone's benefits.

29

As she says in her own words.

30

Irina: it's a balance and a dance of

trying to figure out what commitments

31

I can manage, and what commitments I

believe are important, and for what.

32

And a constant, fairly strong

awareness, you can't do everything

33

Geri: We'll go on here now with part

two and let Irina tell her own story.

34

A story that we recorded back

in June when we were both at a

35

conference in Trondheim, Norway.

36

And we'll pick up here a little

bit back from where we left off

37

in part one, just for context.

38

Irina: I realized I

needed to pay attention.

39

But until I went on sick leave and

actually really paid attention,

40

I really began to pay attention

to what was going on with me.

41

And I realized I hadn't paid

attention to me for quite a long time.

42

It's easy to ignore.

43

And then I started noticing.

44

When I was coming back, I was off

for about a month and a half, and

45

then I started coming back, and

everybody was like, Don't come

46

back too fast, come back slowly.

47

I could tell when I was going too fast.

48

I would suddenly get sick, I would

suddenly get these random inflammations, I

49

suddenly, my body would just push me back.

50

But because I was cautious,

I started noticing that.

51

And I've learned.

52

I've learned to pay attention.

53

I've learned to be okay with being like,

okay, I can't say yes to things now.

54

And I've also learned to try and

plan a little bit for times when I

55

know that the pressure and the level

of demands is going to be high.

56

Um, but I still struggle with

making sure I don't overdo things.

57

The past me always thought that

something that I'm signed up

58

for is going to be a good idea.

59

[I know].

60

The current me is not quite

so sure most of the time.

61

Geri: You talked about, you try to

plan now, like one of the things

62

you've learned is to recognize when

there may be coming up periods of

63

increased pressure and planning more.

64

What might that look like practically?

65

Irina: So right now I'm looking at my

fall and I'm very clear on the fact

66

that it's going to be very tough.

67

Because again, the past me did not

plan very well, and the current

68

me is very aware that suddenly

everything is happening this fall.

69

Um, and I'm a little bit intimidated,

so now suddenly I'm like, Okay, I'm

70

starting a new course, which means

I have to actually have Most of the

71

core is designed and prepared, and

I need to get that done before July.

72

That is extremely advanced for me.

73

Geri: We are talking, early June here, so

74

Irina: yes.

75

That's extremely advanced for you

to even begin thinking about that.

76

but it's because I know that if I can

get it done before July or sort of.

77

That means that I will be able to deal

with the fact that I have my CHI Papers

78

Chair this fall, I have three students

that want to write papers for CHI this

79

fall, and I'm starting my 20 percent

position with Linköping in September.

80

So, all of that will need to

happen all at the same time.

81

So something needs to be done now.

82

Some things really need to

be done and figured out now.

83

Otherwise.

84

Geri: You said before about learning

to, that you can't say yes to everything.

85

And then you also talked about

your past you and your current you.

86

So, even in saying yes to the Linköping

and some of the big fall commitments.

87

Irina: I, you know, it's always a balance.

88

There's certain things you want to do,

and opportunities come along, and you've

89

wanted to do them, so you say yes.

90

And then other opportunities

come along, and they just kind of

91

have to happen at the same time.

92

And eventually, you just kind of

find yourself in the situation.

93

And so right now, I am extremely aware.

94

I will be at my limit this fall.

95

But it also means that my answer

to everything right now is no.

96

From paper review and committee

commitments to, um, PhD dissertation

97

examinations to everything else.

98

It's just a no.

99

And it's a no that is entirely I'm

entirely qualified and entirely justified

100

in my mind, but it also is for the

first time I am feeling like it's a no

101

that I do with complete lack of guilt.

102

Geri: It's interesting that there can,

that there is guilt associated with no's.

103

Irina: Always.

104

I think there is partly guilt, because

when people ask, Uh, you want to help.

105

And there is partly a feeling

of, or a fear of missing out.

106

A fear of maybe this opportunity

will turn into something and you

107

wouldn't miss that if you said yes.

108

But it's also, I think our nos

are, we don't appreciate when

109

other people say no to us.

110

And so, when we say no to others, it is

certainly a similar kind of experience.

111

Geri: Because you're aware of the human

cost of that no for the other person.

112

Irina: Absolutely.

113

And that's always a trade off.

114

I think no's are ways of

us protecting ourselves.

115

But, it's also a social cost.

116

That you have to bear.

117

Yeah.

118

And it's a set of choices that we make.

119

And sometimes I think, I wonder if I'm

making the right choice, if I said the

120

right yeses and, and and the right nos.

121

And you never know really.

122

Geri: I was just gonna ask you do, are you

getting any sense of the criteria at all?

123

Irina: No, but at least now I have.

124

An extremely strong sense

of where my limits might be.

125

And I know, I know, I

push them all the time.

126

But I try very hard not to

push them too far out of shape.

127

And I think that's also a process

and a learning experience.

128

Geri: Sounds like you're

doing a dance with your body.

129

Yeah.

130

How are we going?

131

Can we just do this a little bit more?

132

There's another way of framing the

no's, which is, the saying the yeses.

133

Like, in saying no to that,

what are you saying yes to?

134

Irina: Absolutely.

135

Absolutely.

136

And, but that's, again, there's always

a trade off of how do you know which

137

yeses and no's are the right ones.

138

And that's anybody's

guess most of the time.

139

But, I guess, I've always said

that I, I've always known that

140

I needed to be more strategic.

141

I've never quite figured

out what that means.

142

What means?

143

[Sounds good].

144

Sounds really good.

145

I needed to be more thoughtful

about what are my goals.

146

But then, sometimes that

feels incredibly selfish.

147

And so it's a balance and a dance of

trying to figure out what commitments

148

I can manage, and what commitments I

believe are important, and for what.

149

And a constant, fairly strong

awareness, like there are certain

150

things, you can't do everything.

151

[You can't do everything].

152

And so you have to make some

commitments and give up some others.

153

And that's okay.

154

And it's worthwhile spending

some time thinking about that.

155

Because if you try to do everything, if

you try to lift everything, if you try

156

to carry everything, you will break.

157

Yeah.

158

And it is not pretty.

159

[Yeah, and you will drop everything].

160

And you will drop everything.

161

Yeah.

162

And I was extremely lucky.

163

I was so extremely lucky that I was

surrounded by people who caught me.

164

Who caught things that I

dropped and it was okay.

165

Not everything was okay.

166

Certain things would have

gone better if I was there.

167

Yeah, that's just how it is.

168

[But have they still gone good

enough?] But they're okay.

169

They're okay.

170

And I realized that I Was in position

where I could do that and I'm

171

extremely lucky that that happened But

also I put myself in that position.

172

I put myself in the position where I

broke And I put myself in that position

173

because I didn't pay attention to me To

the signals from my brain and my body

174

Because I always felt that there was this

one other thing I just needed to finish.

175

[And then it will].

176

And then it will.

177

And then it will.

178

And so, now I try extremely hard

to be like, okay, you know what?

179

I promised that I would

do this and this and this.

180

And now I see that right now, I could

try to do this, but I'm extremely tired,

181

and it's late, and actually, it'll be

okay if I close my laptop right now and

182

not think about work until tomorrow.

183

And to recognize that that's perfectly

fine, and to recognize that I can come

184

back to my colleague and say, you know,

I promised you feedback on your, on

185

your grant, and I promised you by today,

but I really wasn't able to get to it.

186

When can I get it to you?

187

And if not, I can't.

188

[Yeah.

189

Because you can't do it all].

190

Sometimes you can't.

191

And sometimes you promise

and you realize you can't.

192

And then, it's better to just

come back and say, I actually,

193

I'm sorry, I can't do it.

194

Then try to do it anyway.

195

Geri: You used the word

selfish a couple of times.

196

Do you still think of this as selfish?

197

Irina: I used to think of that

as selfish a lot more, and now

198

I think it's self preservation.

199

In the end, if I'm clear about

it, if I'm beyond tired and I'm

200

still trying to do something, it's

never going to be good anyway.

201

If I am working myself to the point where

I break, A lot more things will break.

202

So it's just being a little

bit more honest about what it

203

is that I'm capable of doing.

204

With myself and with others.

205

Geri: Yeah.

206

And I, I like from what you said that

you just go back and say, like you're

207

still holding yourself accountable to

the commitment that you made to them

208

and you're just being honest about

where you're at and what you can do.

209

Irina: Because I think

everybody understands that.

210

And, yes, it's disappointing.

211

But bloody hell, we all have limits.

212

Geri: Yeah, yeah.

213

Did you seek any professional

help at all during this time?

214

Irina: Absolutely.

215

So, my university also has this

insurance policy, where when

216

you come into this, situation.

217

You call essentially an emergency

number and they completely anonymously

218

assign you, a therapist to speak to a

workplace therapist to help you work

219

through what's there and what's needed.

220

And it's completely free and it's

completely anonymous and it's kept

221

completely separate from the university.

222

It's just.

223

Something that the insurance

does, so that's what I did.

224

And I met a therapist who worked with me.

225

Just to help me see what, what

to do and what I needed to do.

226

And who actually helped me get to the

point where I just went on sick leave.

227

He helped me realize

that that was possible.

228

Geri: Right, so you needed, you needed

that help just to work through it,

229

because the other half of you is keeping

up, but I can't because I've got all

230

these commitments and responsibilities

and three PhD students and, and, and.

231

Irina: Yeah, and, and,

That was extremely helpful.

232

in Denmark too, um, I went to my doctor,

in order to go officially on sick leave,

233

you have to go to your doctor, and my

doctor took one look at me and said, Yes.

234

Ha ha ha.

235

Geri: You've been to the doctor and

the doctor had said, Yes, you need to

236

Irina: go on sick leave.

237

And insisted on it very strongly.

238

And then the occupational therapy,

you only get so many visits.

239

But in the meantime, I, um, my doctor

had, uh, prescribed regular therapy.

240

Um, so, I got a regular therapist

and finished the occupational

241

therapy and went to that.

242

Um, and that was extremely helpful to

just begin working through recognizing,

243

um, just my tendency to ignore myself

and do all these things and get

244

excited about things and kind of just.

245

Spread myself too thin and, figure

out how to cope with that and

246

begin to get some ways of thinking

and reflecting that can help.

247

Um, and essentially doing some exercises

of just like, rather than thinking

248

about all these things I want to achieve.

249

Paying much more attention to what

I actually do, and how much of it.

250

Because I find actually a lot of times we

always feel like we haven't done enough.

251

Mhm.

252

And it's useful, like at the end

of the week just looking back and

253

being like, What did I actually do?

254

And it turns out you do a lot.

255

A lot of it isn't something

you count as work.

256

But it all kind of counts.

257

And it takes a while to then figure

out, okay, of what you do, what

258

is it that you want to continue?

259

What is important?

260

How do you figure out space and

time to do more of one thing

261

and maybe less of the other?

262

Um, what kinds of commitments got

you to something that you weren't

263

happy with and weren't happy to do?

264

And what kinds of commitments

got you something that was more?

265

Generative and nourishing and

useful and, and maybe fun.

266

I think we don't do enough fun.

267

Enough fun.

268

We don't do enough fun,

we definitely don't.

269

Geri: That sounds like something that

also needs paying attention to your body.

270

[Right].

271

Or how, or how do you recognize what are

the things that are generative for you?

272

Irina: When you look at it and you re and

I think for me, I look at it and I decide

273

okay, what if this is just something that

is that something I'd love to do again?

274

Is that something that I feel went well?

275

Is that something that

I actually enjoy doing?

276

Um, or is that something that's

going to lead to something else?

277

And do I want to go there?

278

Sometimes you don't.

279

And Some things you just need

to give it a chance, right?

280

You're doing something, you start a

series of meetings with people, and

281

it doesn't really work for a while,

maybe you need to give it a chance.

282

Some things...

283

I, um...

284

I started, uh, I started doing these

projects with students, um, doing

285

Ridiculous Software, which is a

little fun project that I really like.

286

And I love the project, the Ridiculous

Software project, and it attracts...

287

[It's called Ridiculous Software Project].

288

Ridiculous Software, um, In fact,

we have a website called Ridiculous.

289

software.

290

But I also tried to do it with, uh,

with master's students and they,

291

and they started showing up, because

they thought it would be fun to do

292

it sort of as a little project, so

as part of their master's education.

293

And at first I thought it would be really

fun, and I kind of enjoyed them, and

294

then I realized it was a lot of effort.

295

But not a lot of return.

296

Because they were treating it

as something like, Ah, we'll

297

just do something ridiculous.

298

Which, the whole point is

building software that is...

299

weird and upsets your expectations

of what software is supposed to do

300

and on doing something the opposite.

301

So I had a student that just built um,

an extension, a Chrome extension that

302

would attempt to recommend as you watch

YouTube, it will attempt to recommend

303

you, YouTube videos that you would hate.

304

I had a student that built something

that would randomly remind you

305

on your phone to breathe out.

306

Just remember to breathe out.

307

It's sort of like a mindfulness exercise.

308

And they're fun.

309

But I also found that I didn't have enough

of a setup to get them to do that well.

310

They weren't doing them particularly well.

311

It was taking a lot of my time.

312

And then I realized, okay,

I can't run them this way.

313

This is fun.

314

But it can't continue this way.

315

So, if I want to do this, then I'm

actually going to have to take a break

316

from this for a little while, figure

out an infrastructure where they can

317

come in and what do they need to read,

how do they need to do things, how do

318

they need to organize, so it's all a

little bit more structured, um, rather

319

than just these exploratory little

projects, so that it doesn't take as

320

much time for me as it was taking.

321

And normally I would just

continue because, oh my god,

322

these students are so interested.

323

But suddenly I said, okay, no,

no more, no more for a while.

324

I can't, I can't take anymore.

325

I will come back to this.

326

And student will continue being

interested in this, I think.

327

The name is fun.

328

But, oh, I need to, I

can't do it this way.

329

I, I actually need to.

330

I need to do this differently.

331

I need to be much more systematic,

much more careful about how

332

much time I, I put into this.

333

[So this is a new you].

334

That is.

335

And it feels sometimes, like, wait,

but this is kind of working, the

336

students are showing up, what if

I stop and they won't show up?

337

But on the other hand, I'm like, no,

actually, no, no, this is not working.

338

It's not working for me and it's in

the same way not working for them.

339

Geri: Do you have a deliberate

practice of sitting down?

340

This is a highly reflective process that

you're talking about, both in trying to

341

detect the patterns about what are you

enjoying doing that you find generative,

342

that you want to do more of, and things

that you might want to do less of.

343

So it's highly reflective.

344

Do you have any particular

practices to support that?

345

Like do you sit down at the

piece of paper and for 10

346

minutes or is it just a mindset?

347

Irina: Some of it is a mindset,

but some of it is just silly

348

things like, um, I have a...

349

So, one of my colleagues

recommended Toggl Track as one

350

of these little toggle things.

351

Because we always complain that we work

all the time and I wanted to figure

352

out, do I actually work all the time?

353

What do I do?

354

How do I do it?

355

And I have this, I run it as a

little desktop thing where, it

356

actually sort of tracks what I...

357

which I use and I can sort of put in, um,

Oh, well this I was working on CHI or this

358

I was working on this project or this I

was teaching, this I was Um, and then I

359

can sort of track time used for things.

360

And I tracked for a few months.

361

Not for like how many hours am

I working, am I working enough?

362

I noticed that actually immediately.

363

Immediately I was I suddenly was like,

well, I worked 47 hours this week.

364

And I was like, oh my god, no really?

365

Are we back to that?

366

But then I realized that

it's not about the number of

367

hours I was working in total.

368

It was about, actually, it gave me

suddenly a much more visceral overview.

369

of how much time things actually take.

370

Mm hmm.

371

And once you realize that, you

begin to understand that when

372

you say yes to things, it comes

with specific amounts of time.

373

And remember, time's not stretchy.

374

Really not stretchy.

375

So when you are committing to things

that in fact will take 40 hours in

376

that week, you will end up working

60 because there's 20 hours of

377

that other stuff that will come up.

378

That will just need to be attended

to, done, responded to, immediately.

379

And unless you are clear with

yourself, of what you're doing,

380

but figuring out how much time

things take is extremely difficult.

381

So I said, okay, I'm going to

spend, so the last, like, four

382

months I've been tracking.

383

And I've been tracking in a way

where, because there's been CHI, and

384

there's been all these other events,

and so things are, so that I can get

385

a much better sense of just how much

time am I spending in all of this.

386

And it allows me Again, it

gives me a sense of saying no.

387

When do I say yes and when do I say no?

388

It gives me a better expectation of

how much time am I committing to.

389

This is why I know my fall is

going to be very difficult.

390

Because I know how much

time I've committed to.

391

But it also actually gives me a sense

of certainty about what to expect.

392

Which I never really had before.

393

So before you would just say,

you would say, would you do this?

394

Yeah, I'll do that.

395

Okay, I'll do that.

396

Oh, my June seems a little bit looser.

397

I'll do that then.

398

And then you realize you've overcommitted.

399

So how do you not overcommit?

400

Oh, I really need to figure

out what I want to do.

401

But how?

402

I need to know about how

much time things take.

403

You need to think about

where you want to go.

404

You need to figure out why it's so hard

to say no to some things and not others.

405

And you need to figure out whether that

is something you need to rethink or not.

406

Yeah.

407

What are our commitments?

408

Are those commitments the ones

we actually want to uphold?

409

Or do we want to rethink them?

410

My god, that takes a

lot of time and effort.

411

And actually, I needed to give myself

time to do all that thinking too.

412

That doesn't come right away.

413

Geri: Do you mean the time or the

ability to do that thinking?

414

Irina: The ability to do that thinking and

the space and time to do that thinking.

415

Right?

416

The ability is at a certain point,

you actually have to learn how to

417

reflect and be like, Is that okay?

418

And at first it takes a long

time to figure that out.

419

And then it's less.

420

Because you've gained the skill.

421

Reflection is also a skill.

422

And we're super reflective,

but reflecting on ourselves is

423

a completely different skill.

424

Which is funny.

425

You would never expect that.

426

You would think a scholar that's done

deep qualitative work and quantitative

427

work and have written things about all

kinds of stuff would know how to reflect.

428

And then thinking about your own

life, you just realize that it's

429

a completely different skill.

430

And you still have to learn about that.

431

But somehow, because it's just

you, it doesn't seem like you

432

never ever have enough time for it.

433

[But it's okay to prioritize you].

434

It turns out if you prioritize

you, at least occasionally,

435

everybody else benefits too.

436

Geri: Yeah.

437

I think that's a really

key point, isn't it?

438

Irina: And it turns out if you

don't prioritize you, eventually

439

everybody loses because you break.

440

[Yeah.

441

So that's more selfish in a way].

442

Yeah.

443

It is.

444

Because for a while before you break,

you are going to be producing things that

445

are never going to be your best work.

446

And you're never going to be like,

that was really good, because I

447

could have done better, but my head

didn't really have a brain then.

448

And that's worse.

449

So, there's another thing though, is

that, I think, one thing I'm trying to

450

correct right now and figure out how to

deal with, is that, I still overcommit.

451

It's just a knee jerk reaction.

452

I just overcommit to things.

453

I need to stop overcommitting.

454

But, I also need to figure out

how to not appear to everyone

455

like I'm incredibly busy.

456

I am.

457

But, I think it's become kind of

like a pathology, where people are

458

starting to write to me, I know

you're incredibly busy, but...

459

Geri: Say more about that.

460

What do you mean by appearing to be busy.

461

Irina: I think busyness is something

that, to me, it's becoming, at least

462

in my case, if I begin to appear

really busy to everybody, it means

463

I've completely overcommitted.

464

Geri: Okay, so it's more that if people

are reading you as being busy, then, oops.

465

Irina: Then I'm definitely in it.

466

So if I start getting email from

people and saying, I know you're

467

incredibly busy, but, Like, oh,

I think I'm overdoing things.

468

I need to go back.

469

Geri: Mm hmm.

470

So using their observation of you

as another source of feedback.

471

Irina: Because I suddenly realized

that I don't like appearing incredibly

472

intensely busy all the time to people

and I don't, I hope that I don't.

473

But I think when we get stressed

out, we get over committed.

474

We stop having enough space and time

to just have a coffee with a colleague.

475

To step in and say hello.

476

We just rush past.

477

And we appear busy to everybody

because we don't have time to breathe.

478

Geri: And connect.

479

I mean the two things that you

just said there, about coffee with

480

a colleague, stopping in to say

hello, is about time to connect.

481

Irina: And, and then you realise

that suddenly, I realise at least,

482

that suddenly I am making a choice

between either having a coffee with

483

a colleague, Or, doing something for

myself, that is a wrong calculus.

484

I should have time for both.

485

I've overcommitted.

486

And so right now I think I'm going through

this process of trying to figure out how

487

much commitment is okay and is enough.

488

And that's a really It's a process.

489

Geri: Yeah Are you still

getting help like still seeing

490

a therapist or someone just to?

491

Sense check this with?

492

Irina: Yeah, I am and I realized because

apparently I need an external opinion

493

Geri: Yeah Because I think

that we all do in a way

494

Irina: I need somebody to

tell me that you know I am.

495

I am.

496

And I am also keenly aware

that, I'm not fully recovered.

497

It takes years to recover from

the level of burnout that I had.

498

and I have to be very

careful because that was bad.

499

Mm-hmm.

500

And, but that was bad because I have

the tendency to overcommit, to get

501

overexcited to decide that I wanna

do everything and be everything and

502

participate in these public events and

write papers with all of my students.

503

And needing to create a new course

and do this all at the same time

504

because it all seems important.

505

It all seems valuable and it is.

506

It is.

507

It is, but in the end,

there's only one of me.

508

And with all of this valuable stuff,

I forget I also need time to go for a

509

bike ride, to go to a yoga class, to

actually take time and go for a walk

510

in the forest and not think about work.

511

Maybe go watch a movie.

512

And not feel guilty about it.

513

And it's like, one of my friends said,

You know, rest is only restful if

514

you're not feeling guilty about resting.

515

Because if you're feeling

guilty about resting, your

516

nervous system is not resting.

517

It's freaking out.

518

And then it's not rest at all.

519

And I think in academia we'd feel guilty

about not working when we're doing

520

anything other than working a lot.

521

And that just makes things worse.

522

Geri: Mmm.

523

Yeah.

524

So it sounds like that's

a journey as well.

525

In learning that it's okay

to rest, genuinely rest.

526

Irina: Not just okay, it's imperative.

527

It's crucial, and if you don't...

528

Geri: So you talked about some

practices like yoga and bike riding

529

and going for a walk in the forest.

530

Are you able to build them

in, in a structured way?

531

Or how do you manage other aspects

of your life beyond work now?

532

Irina: So I've realized, um,

actually, I read Haruki Murakami's,

533

What I Talk About When I Talk About

Running, which is a lovely book.

534

It's a bit of a memoir.

535

And he says something in

that book, you know, pain is

536

inevitable, suffering is optional.

537

I quite like that.

538

And he also says something in that book

that once you commit to something, you're

539

cutting out other things in your life.

540

Again, so if I want to, if I realize

I can't just do my job, which involves

541

reading and writing and thinking

and engaging with people and giving

542

talks and doing all of that all

the time, that's not good for me.

543

I need other things.

544

That means I have to

create space for that.

545

If I want to seriously, ride my

bike and get good at that, there's

546

only so many other things I can fit.

547

Maybe that's also my social activity.

548

Maybe I out prioritize

this over other things.

549

I think...

550

So now I'm very careful about it.

551

Okay.

552

I will protect times in my day

and in my week where I will do the

553

things that are other than work

because they are important too.

554

I will block them out on my calendar

so that nobody can schedule anything

555

in those days and in those times and it

doesn't matter what else is happening.

556

[Non negotiables].

557

They're non negotiables.

558

They have to be there.

559

Because otherwise, it's

really easy to give that up.

560

And, I have a family, and I have

things I want to do outside of work,

561

and I have lots of things I want to

do at work, and there's only one of

562

me, and I have to be careful about it.

563

Yeah.

564

It only took me a few

decades to figure it out.

565

It seems like an obvious thing, though.

566

Geri: And it's a life long.

567

It is a lifelong learning, isn't it, to

continually negotiate those trade offs

568

about what you're saying yes and no to.

569

Irina: It's always about how

do you keep balance, I think.

570

But it's also recognizing that over

time, you will need different things.

571

And you will need different amounts

of work or time with your family or

572

doing something physical or going for

walks or spending time with friends,

573

it will change and that's okay too.

574

You just need to recognize that

those changes are necessary.

575

Geri: Again, it's that space to step

back and to give yourself time to

576

reflect in order to recognize as well.

577

It's all part and parcel of it.

578

Irina: Yeah, I think it's also

a process of recognizing your

579

limits and being okay with them.

580

I have colleagues that

are incredibly good.

581

Every Monday they sit down, they

write down all of their tasks for

582

the week, and then they go through

and systematically go through it.

583

And I think it's amazing.

584

I cannot do that.

585

That is just not something

that I, that works for me.

586

I am fairly disorganized.

587

I'm lots of last minute.

588

I have many limits.

589

I have many shortcomings.

590

But as long as I recognize that they're

there, and I build a few things that

591

kind of mitigate some of them, it's okay.

592

And my colleagues come to me and say,

you know, like, you'll be organizing a

593

winter school in Copenhagen for the Decode

Project, which we will do in January.

594

And I realize, organizing

is not my strong suit.

595

So my solution to this is, I need

to hire somebody to do that for me.

596

[Very nice].

597

Because clearly, it's not going to be

me, because if I try to do it, it will

598

take me enormous amounts of time, it will

stress me out, and I am terrible at it.

599

And I know.

600

And so, instead of trying to do it

myself, I'm going to try and figure

601

out how I'm going to accomplish this.

602

Without making it the

thing that breaks me.

603

[Lovely].

604

Recognising that is key.

605

Geri: Yeah.

606

That, that self awareness

about it's not my strength.

607

Also, the self awareness that someone

else can be very good and structured

608

at organising their to do lists at the

beginning of the week, but that's not you.

609

And, that's okay.

610

Like, it's not that you're not

measuring up to their standards.

611

You're just different.

612

Irina: Yeah.

613

And it takes a while to figure that out.

614

It takes a while to figure out

all of our brains are different.

615

And they all function differently.

616

And they all need

slightly different things.

617

And it works for one person,

will not work for another person.

618

And sometimes, when we're

stressed and we're tired, we

619

can get upset at each other.

620

And you're like, why can't

you just do it this way?

621

It makes sense.

622

Geri: I could keep talking

forever because I just think

623

there's so much, to explore here.

624

Just two things, if we can.

625

One is, you're to met all the work that

you're doing and necessarily needing to

626

do for yourself, both to get yourself.

627

back on the path and to try to

develop practices and habits

628

and, and whatever that are more

sustainable for you for the long term.

629

And you're operating within

a broader cultural context.

630

And it sounds like you've just had

amazingly supportive colleagues and

631

department, which is really to be

commended, you know, good on all of them.

632

More generally, structurally, what are the

things that you think may be contributed

633

to and could be changed to stop this

happening for other people or that it

634

may have helped you in another universe?

635

Irina: I mean, I live in Denmark,

which means I live in a country

636

where there has been enormous

attention to workplace stress.

637

And the very idea that people need

support through workplace stress, and

638

that is something that is an issue,

has been around for quite a while.

639

I also live in a place where the idea

of work life balance is important,

640

although nobody's ever quite really

sure how you're supposed to achieve it.

641

Um, but I live in a place where if

my kid gets sick and I have a bunch

642

of meetings where even I'm teaching

a course and I see my kid is sick

643

and everybody's like, that's fine.

644

Do what's important.

645

And that's the fact that your

kid is sick, that's important.

646

Not the meetings, not the

class, everything else.

647

Which is incredibly unusual.

648

I come from the U.

649

S.

650

It took me years to just actually

even take any of that on board.

651

To accept that this kind of way

of treating people is possible.

652

Where my doctor says, Yes,

you should go on sick leave.

653

And I say, Do I need

something to show my employer?

654

And he says, No.

655

If they want something

from me, they can call me.

656

And they have to pay me.

657

I told you to go on sick leave.

658

You just tell them I told

you to go on sick leave.

659

And go on sick leave.

660

And my employer says, of course,

you should go on sick leave.

661

And here we'll have a meeting

at this time when we decide how

662

slowly you're going to come back.

663

Please don't go back too quickly.

664

Geri: So even working in this

incredibly supportive environment

665

and with the structures in place.

666

So is that saying that a lot of the

pressures were coming from within?

667

Because, you did talk about they're

things that you get excited about it?

668

Irina: I think a lot of the

pressure comes from within.

669

A lot of the pressure also comes from

the fact that I've been socialized and,

670

in the US where this kind of set of

expectations is completely different.

671

And so when you're treated like a

valuable human being at your workplace,

672

it's sometimes initially shocking.

673

And that's horrible in this first place.

674

Right.

675

Um,

676

I think there is something about

the feeling here in Denmark

677

that I'm entitled to this.

678

And everybody's accepted that.

679

That's how it is.

680

That then takes the pressure off.

681

That when this happens,

it's not somehow my fault.

682

That I have to then somehow atone for.

683

That this is just life.

684

Yeah.

685

And things will go the way they go.

686

And I think all of that

is really important.

687

Yeah.

688

And, as it is, we...

689

I don't know, I find that most

academics are incredibly self driven.

690

And do crazy things like...

691

Alright, I think I'm just going to pull an

all nighter and write this grant proposal.

692

We all do that occasionally,

even though sometimes we feel

693

like we should know better.

694

And so, I think in many ways,

it can be easy to fall into the

695

sense of like pushing yourself

more and more and more and more.

696

At the very least, I had the

infrastructure surround me.

697

To be like, no, actually

it's okay if you don't.

698

Geri: So when you did fall down you had

support net, you had some safety nets and

699

Irina: Not only that, that safety

net did not expect me to get up

700

and start running again they said

me to start by walking slowly and

701

Then they always, they keep saying

things like, are you sure about this?

702

Because there's this acceptance

of like, you do enough.

703

And yes, of course, there's huge pressure

to get funding, there's pressure to

704

publish, you need to do things here and

there, and yet at the same time, there

705

is an understanding of what's enough and

how to provide you support to do enough.

706

Geri: It's such an

important word, isn't it?

707

Enough.

708

I just had a conversation with someone

who was at a course I ran for early

709

career researchers where we talked about

saying yes, no, and Also making those

710

choices about how to do more of the things

that are generative, that are fun, or

711

that where you feel like you can make

a difference, or that are important.

712

And we talked about, you know, like for

some of the other things, good enough.

713

And the fight that people have in their

heads that good enough sounds like it's

714

sloppy or a compromise, but it's not.

715

It's enough.

716

You do enough.

717

I love that people say that to you.

718

That's just so affirming.

719

Irina: And I think we're used to pushing

harder and comparing ourselves to others.

720

And it's, we are in a business where

we're constantly compared to others.

721

So nothing's ever enough.

722

It needs to be top.

723

It needs to be perfect.

724

It needs to be best.

725

[If you're comparing to others].

726

Because you're always compared to others.

727

How do you win a grant?

728

Because you're best.

729

Right?

730

Everything is that.

731

So no wonder, no wonder you constantly

push yourself, because you have

732

to be better, more, whatever.

733

And at some point you need to figure

out how much is enough, because if you

734

don't, how are you going to continue?

735

It's not sustainable.

736

As it is, if you look at it, what

was enough just two decades ago in

737

academia is not nearly enough now.

738

Geri: So that's something we

need to change because we can't

739

keep escalating this forever.

740

that's not sustainable.

741

Irina: Well, we're all operating

within a space where the

742

amount of funding is shrinking.

743

Um, the competitiveness of

our grants is increasing.

744

Um, at this point for some grants,

the funding rates are so low

745

that it's practically random.

746

And yet, when you do get funded, people

think, Oh, because you're the best.

747

Well, you're good.

748

Yeah.

749

And you got lucky.

750

Yeah.

751

And that's a horrible thing.

752

Because it's, it's so

intense at this point.

753

And we really need to figure

out how to change that dynamic.

754

[We need new funding models].

755

We need new funding models.

756

We need to figure out how to

manage the neoliberal university.

757

Um, how to acknowledge that the standards

that we set are constantly going up.

758

And if we look at ourselves, and what

it took then to do, what it's taking now

759

to do, those are shifting, increasing.

760

Um, and to critically consider what is

really success, and where are we going.

761

Geri: Yeah.

762

So, my last question is then, How,

what are the conversations like with

763

your students around all this, knowing

that they are still operating in this

764

environment as it is now, having gone

through your own experiences, how are

765

you helping them navigate their choices?

766

Irina: So one of the things I'm

very well aware of is that my taking

767

time off affected my students.

768

It couldn't not.

769

They did fine, but it would have

been better if I were there.

770

And in part this has to do with

complex projects that they're a

771

part of, and the different ways

that things have worked out.

772

Um, But that's just how it is.

773

And so, each student is different,

I think, and they all have different

774

needs, and they all need different

ways, different forms of support.

775

But because I'm extremely aware

of how easy it is to just push,

776

push, push, I try to be very clear

about what just, what is enough.

777

What needs to be accomplished.

778

And if you get more, that's great.

779

Because, you know, at a certain point

when I was writing my PhD, I realized

780

I'm not writing the dissertation.

781

I'm writing a dissertation.

782

Because it just needs to finish.

783

It just needs to be done.

784

And it also means that my students

will want to write the dissertation.

785

That's normal when you're halfway

through your PhD and you believe

786

you're going to change the world.

787

Sometimes you might.

788

But the dissertation is a form of

perfectionist that's not good for anyone.

789

So we work very hard on a dissertation.

790

On what's enough.

791

I work very hard on making

sure my students have options.

792

I talk to them about where it is that

they want to go, what they want to do,

793

and we talk about what needs to be in

place for them to have those options.

794

And now I'm going to start trying to get

funding so I can offer them some postdocs

795

because three year PhDs are brutal.

796

But, given that, then the

question is, what's enough?

797

If I have a student that says, you know, I

think this is fantastic and I love doing a

798

PhD, but after that I'm going to industry

because I can't deal with academia.

799

Okay.

800

What industry?

801

Do we need an internship?

802

Do we need to figure out

who do we need to talk to?

803

I have a student that really wants

to stay in academia and this is

804

where she wants to be and this is...

805

This is her thing.

806

Okay, where do we need to publish?

807

Which audiences do we need to talk to?

808

How do we set you up to read, to be read

by those audiences in a way that can

809

begin to make you that kind of scholar?

810

And what's enough?

811

Geri: So that's being strategic.

812

Yeah, you said before

about being strategic.

813

What does that mean?

814

That's certainly...

815

Lovely strategic thinking, shaping choices

that the students can be making now.

816

Irina: When you have a three year

PhD, if you don't make those choices,

817

I think it's just irresponsible.

818

You don't have time to change your mind.

819

And sometimes students do.

820

But then it's very, very

difficult to switch.

821

Geri: Yes.

822

Is there anything we haven't...

823

talked about that you'd just

like to add or any, or any

824

final thoughts or reflections?

825

Irina: I'm always at odds

with the academic career.

826

On the one hand, I think it's brilliant.

827

You get to think about things and

read because it's kind of amazing.

828

That's part of our job.

829

And write, and argue, and

have amazing conversations

830

with incredibly smart people.

831

And we travel a lot, and we know people

all over the world, and it's amazing.

832

But there's some days where I just

want a job where I can just do the job

833

and go home and not think about it.

834

And I realized that sometimes

I just have to do that.

835

Sometimes I have to treat my academic

career as a job for a little while.

836

And that's okay too.

837

Geri: Yeah, that's definitely okay.

838

Wow.

839

Irina: Thank you for letting

me talk about all of this.

840

Geri: Thank you for being

vulnerable enough to share.

841

I can imagine it will help a lot

of people just go, ah, it's okay.

842

That they're okay, that they may be

feeling this, or that they're okay, that

843

they might just need to say, I can't do it

anymore for the moment and to step back.

844

Irina: I would not have been able to

go through that quite as well as I did.

845

If I didn't have a conversation

with Pernille Bjørn about

846

it, which she said, I fell.

847

And they caught me.

848

Try it.

849

It's okay.

850

I would not have been able

to do it without that.

851

[Someone's giving you

permission just to be human].

852

When I walked into Kasper's office

and he said okay, and the next week I

853

wasn't teaching anymore, I was in shock.

854

I was in complete and utter shock.

855

That that was possible [That people

would be supportive] that that that he

856

would do that and it was possible to

do and it would just happen like that

857

Geri: And may we all do that for each

other just being there reassuring and

858

saying that it's okay So all the very

best navigating your fall and making

859

ongoing choices that prioritise you

so that you can bring your wonderful

860

best self to making the difference

you want to make in the research

861

that you're doing, in the work.

862

So thank you Irina.

863

Irina: Thank you for letting me have

this, for being part of your project too.

864

I've been listening to them a lot and so

it's kind of amazing to be part of it.

865

[I'm really glad you are, thank you].

866

Thank you.

867

Geri: What a compelling story.

868

I'm so grateful to Irina

for her vulnerability and

869

honesty in sharing with us.

870

It's a salient reminder that

if we want to be here in the

871

longer term, doing great work.

872

We need to be much more reflective

about the pressures we might

873

be putting ourselves under.

874

And make sure that we

look after ourselves now.

875

And this can involve often

making wise and hard choices.

876

It's also a salient reminder that

burnout doesn't happen in a vacuum.

877

What we do at faculty

department group level matters.

878

For how we support one another.

879

And how we talk about

these sorts of issues.

880

And of course there are also the

bigger structural issues, especially

881

around our performance-based academic

cultures that need to change.

882

If we are to better

support wellbeing at scale.

883

So take care.

884

Take a break.

885

And remember you are enough.

886

You do enough And it is good enough

887

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

888

links for this podcast on www.

889

changingacademiclife.

890

com.

891

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,,

892

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

893

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

894

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

895

we can do academia differently.

896

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

897

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

898

with your colleagues together.

899

We can make change happen.