How Much More Can You Achieve Knowing That Someone Always Has Your Back?

Richard Merrygold reveals his journey from a role in Information Governance all the way to being responsible for creating a worldwide privacy framework for FTSE 100 firm and progressing onto setting up his consultancy.

Richard shares why he loves the Privacy industry and why there's never been a better time to secure a thriving career as a Privacy Professional.

He shares the secrets that helped him to make it all the way to the top and why you need to start enhancing your personal brand.

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Richard Merrygold is a highly experienced Data Protection practitioner.

Richard has spent over 10 years supporting organisations across healthcare, pharmaceutical, technology, charity and financial service sectors. 

He is also a regular speaker and commentator on data protection and privacy matters and holds the BCS Certificate in Data Protection.

Richard is co-founder of iSTORM®, a consultancy and advisory service provider which specialises in providing data protection, information security and penetration testing consultancy and support services to a wide range of organisations across the UK and Europe.

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Connect with Jamal on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmjahmed/

Connect with Richard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-merrygold-7856847/

Subscribe to the Privacy Pros Academy YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/PrivacyPros

If I have a query, if I have a concern, if I'm even questioning myself, am I missing something here? I know there's a wealth of people out there that I can go to. There's support groups and a network to slack groups. There's networking sites, there's activities like this podcast that you can watch and get other people of viewpoints. The ecosystem is fantastic. The people are fantastic. Everybody's got each other's back.

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Hello everyone, and welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast. My name is Jamilla. I'm a data privacy analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislation as well as any key developments. My co-host today is Jamal Ahmed, who is a Fellow of Information Privacy and the CEO at Kazient Privacy Experts. He is a leading global privacy professional, world class trainer, and lead mentor at the Privacy Pros Academy. Welcome, Jamal.

Hi Jamila. Great to be back for another episode.

Yeah, I'm very excited. And I will introduce our guest today. Our guest today is Richard Merrygold who is a highly experienced Data Protection practitioner. Richard has spent over 10 years supporting organisations across healthcare, pharmaceutical, technology, charity and financial service sectors.

He is also a regular speaker and commentator on data protection and privacy matters and holds the BCS Certificate in Data Protection. Richard is co-founder of iSTORM®, a consultancy and advisory service provider which specialises in providing data protection, information security and penetration testing consultancy and support services to a wide range of organisations across the UK and Europe.

Wow, what a biography of. Welcome Richard.

I think it was easier to read when I wrote it, now it feels really long.

Thank you for joining us today. Looking forward to speaking with you.

Thank you for having me.

So on our podcast, as you know, we always start with an icebreaker question. So today's is, what is the best gift you've ever received?

Wow, that's a really good question. When my daughter was first born, obviously we were in the office a lot and the shirts I always used to have these little brass collar pins and I used to lose them. And I got a pair of sterling silver collar pins engraved with bubbles and kisses for Daddy, lots of love, Millie.

That's a really sweet gift, that's a nice one. But no more shirts in the office anymore.

I have a new client meeting doesn't mean I'll always try and put a shirt on, but yeah, if I can get away with living in a T shirt and hoodie, then that's where I am these days.

I think most people have done that, especially in the past year now, working from home.

I think it's probably one of the perks of being your own boss, Richard. You can wear whatever you like.

But that's the other thing, isn't it? It's creating a culture of being who you want to be and being comfortable with who you are and then it just felt daft coming to work in a suit, when you technically dpn’t need to be in a suit to be able to do your job, there are certain times when a certain time is required. But yeah, a lot of the time, be comfortable is the best way to be.

Definitely. So, on to the questions and what first sparked your interest in data privacy?

I've been in the industry about twelve years now. My routine definitely wasn't fairy tale, shall we say. The company I was working in was a private healthcare company. I had gone for some sort of team leadership roles and didn't fit that sort of profile. And at the time there was an information governance manager who was looking after 27,001 and data protection and information government side of the business. She wanted an assistant, I wanted a promotion. It sounded interesting, I went for the job. That's where it all started, really. And then from then on in, I've only ever moved in jobs either within information governance or data protection. And the more I did it, the more I found it fascinating, the more I enjoyed it. I enjoy research, I enjoy understanding legislation, I enjoy being able to practice something that makes a difference for people and could potentially make a difference for business. And then at this point now, I like dispelling the myth. I like people to understand it more and understand data protection and privacy more and just have a better feel about it and not be scared of it and understand it's a business benefit, not a business burden. So that's kind of the journey where we are today.

And do you think that understanding has increased since the GDPR? Was that kind of the turning point?

The GDPR helped because the GDPR brought it in front of people, it gave it a focus, it pushed it out into the wider world, so it took it from the back rooms of the NHS and medical companies and pharma companies and it put it on a more commercial standing. But I think what's really changed is things like this, podcast, the content that now goes out on LinkedIn networking sessions, events. There was no events when I started. There was nothing. Now you've got numerous events covering all different sectors. All of those things is what's raising awareness. It's that constant churn of bringing it to the forum and pushing it in front of people. So, yeah, the GDPR definitely kickstarted that. But I think the work that the industry has done to push itself forward has to be applauded.

And I mean, just looking at some of the opportunities on the job boards and when people are announcing that they've been fired on LinkedIn, I've not seen a busier sector than data privacy. I remember a few years back, people used to have a privacy or a data protection role as 25% or 50% or even 20% of the work they used to do. But now, businesses and organizations are all about actually building teams of people who are working 100% of data privacy and data protection, and it's just too many opportunities out there. And I think it's only going to continue to grow because from the conversations I've had with industry leaders is they're always asking for good people. Can I recommend someone for their organization? Is their a consultant I can push forward for their projects? And the problem is, there is more demand than there is supply right now, which is also a great thing for people coming into the market. What have you noticed in terms of the job market when it comes to data privacy?

And as someone who hires in the sector, what kind of characteristics, what kind of traits do you look for in someone who's trying to develop a career in data privacy?

There's no sort of set template for somebody to be a DPO, for somebody to look for a career in privacy. Every sector is different. So you've got banking, you've got retail, you've got manufacturing, you've got healthcare, you've got the more marketing side of things. And each sector has a risk appetite. Public sector tends to be very risk averse. They're very clear, they're very black and white. Financial services, again, tends to be quite risk averse. Then you move into some of the more commercial sectors, like retail, you tend to be a bit more flexible, people tend to have a better view on commercial risk. So it really depends on the sector that you want to work in and your mindset. People that come and work for us here at iSTORM and the clients that we have, we always look for people that are pragmatic. So people that can look at a problem, people that can look at an issue and say, that's probably not the best way to do it, but it's not a no. It's just we need to find another way that has to be a different way. People that can work with our clients to understand their needs, understand their risk appetite. So self starters, people with a risk background or an operational background that understand the need for compliance but also understand the need that businesses do need to make money. But then there are roles that need a very clear black and white compliance based focus and that's much more aligned to privacy or data protection lawyer that can clearly pinpoint, this is the exact things by law that you need to do. This is what's happened in case law. This is the potential impact on your organization. But if you're enthusiastic, if you've got good people skills, you're good at talking to people and you're confident and you can stand by the things that you say, then this is definitely a career for you because you have to be prepared to be challenged and you will be challenged by a lot of people in a lot of departments. So you have to be able to back up your arguments. You also have to be able to engage with you have to be able to get in front of people, get by and explain the benefit of what you're trying to do. Because this is a cost, there's no cost benefit to having somebody like me come into your business. There's potential long term cultural benefit and potential long term consumer benefit and customer benefit. I'm not going to save you money. I'm not going to make any efficiencies. I'm not going to make necessarily your business more profitable, but I'm going to create a culture and create an organization that's potentially safer, more profitable in the long term. So being able to persuade people is a really good trait in being a DPO, being a privacy person and having an analytical mind, being able to understand legislation. What does that mean? What does that mean for my clients? Who does that need to be pointed to? And being able to articulate that in a fashion that somebody can understand all those kinds of things. It doesn't fit one person. It fits a whole load of people. And that's why if you look at the people on LinkedIn, look at the people that we, follow us, look at the people that are commenting, everybody's different. Yeah, everybody's got a different viewpoint. Everybody's got a different touch on the world, and that's what makes it exciting. But that's what makes it a really, really fascinating industry to work in. Like it's literally open to anybody.

I think that helps kind of dispel some of the myths that it's only for people who've got background in law that can go into data privacy as well. So what is your favourite thing? What do you love most about working in data privacy?

It's going to sound really cheesy, and I don't want it to, but it wasn't really cheesy, but it's the people. When I started this job twelve years ago, there was no one to talk to. I didn't want the violin to play or anything, but there wasn't, there was nobody to bounce ideas off. There was nobody to sort of support you. And I found a group of people down in London, the data protection forum, that was the first time that I found a group of people that understood data protection. And it was very senior people, very knowledgeable people that had been working in data protection for a very long time. These people were policy writers, they were political advisers. And that's where I started to realize that actually there are potentially people that we can liaise with here. But it's been the last two or three years that the industry has grown so much and people have come in. I've met some absolutely fantastic people. If I have a query, if I have a concern, if I'm even questioning myself, am I missing something here? I know there's a wealth of people out there that I can go to. There's support groups, there's networks, there's slack groups, there's networking sites, there's activities like this podcast that you can watch and get other people's viewpoints. And that's probably my favourite thing about the industry. The ecosystem is fantastic, the people are fantastic, everybody's got each other's back, and I don't think you get that in a lot of industries. For me, hands down, that is probably my favourite thing about this job.

We started a thing called the privacy space, which is essentially an online video networking environment where nothing is recorded, we don't record the chats, and people just turn up and ask questions. They've struggled with something in their job today or they've had a particular query and somebody's debating with them and they're looking to back up their own argument. And people just come and have a chat and shoot the breeze and everybody's there to either go see what you've probably missed is this or no 100%. Like, you should say, why don't you try taking this approach or listing this and these things? We're in an industry at the minute whereby I have other consultants, we're different, we run a business, but independent consultants ring me up and say, I can't do this work, I'm too busy. Are you interested? Do you know anyone that can do it? I have people that come to us for things like training. We don't really do training. It's just never been a thing that we do. But don't worry, I know some people that can do it for you. And we'll go and pass that business around. Everybody's got everybody's back. I don't think you see that in a lot of industries anymore. And I hope it continues. I hope it does. I hope it's not just like a utopia and then it's going to explode and everybody's going to kick off, but at the minute it's a really, really good place to be.

So as we heard from your bio, you've got a lot of experience in the sector and over ten years supporting different organizations. But what's been the most memorable moment of your career so far?

The day that they gave me formal responsibility for all the countries that the company was in to France, Italy, Spain, the US, all of the UK businesses. And I became the director of Group Data Protection for a FTSE 100 financial services company. At that point, like I landed, I was fully in charge of all of the compliance programs. I rolled out the entire GDPR program, created a worldwide privacy framework that remained in that organization today. And then the second thing is starting this business, starting iSTORM, and being able to say, I'm now comfortable to take that knowledge and take that experience. And I think I can do something with it and I think I can do something. For me, starting this business was definitely the next big thing.

Congratulations on that. Setting up your own business, Richard, when did you start iSTORM? And what was the kind of the thought process to go from where you was this super successful director, FTSE 100 company, to then say, you know what, I'm going to go and do my own thing?

It got to the point I was very fortunate that I had an amazing boss, I had an amazing team in the job that I was in. You know, I had free reign to do whatever I wanted. I was traveling all over the place, but I felt that I had done as much as I could do. My career had been based on building privacy frameworks from the ground up, building programs, bringing organizations up to compliance. And I felt like I didn't want to start that again. I didn't want to go somewhere else and do that process again. I felt like I'd done it. I thought, well, I'm interested in doing some consultancy. Maybe I'll go and do contracting. And my old friend from school, my best friend, had rang me up and he was working for a very well-known training and consultancy services provider as a salesman. He said, I'm not enjoying this anymore. I want to go and set up on my own. I want to do something. What are you doing? I'm going to go and be a consultant. He's like, well, I'll be a consultant. Like, I'll sell, you deliver. I'm like, how long is it going to take you to finish selling? And all of my time is taken and what are you going to do? We'll make a business, we'll have consultants, we'll have more people. So that's where it started from. It was two people who thought that the industry was lacking in good customer service and there was a lot of snake oil being sold. There's a lot of fear mongering and going on and we didn't like it. We thought we could do a better job and we thought we could do something different. So we thought, why not? Let's give it a bash. Worst case scenario, it all falls apart and you just go and get a job. That's kind of what it comes down to. You just go back to what you know. So we've been in business for three years in June. It’s been a good journey.

What's been the highlight of the journey throughout the last three years?

Oddly, that the highlight has been lock down, which is a weird thing to say. Bear with me. So we went into lockdown, just the two of us, me and my business partner. We'd had a couple of people working for us and it hasn't worked out for whatever reasons. We went into lockdown not knowing the lockdown was coming, just the two of us. We just passed up on an office. We decided it wasn't time, so everything kind of fell into place. We came out of lockdown, so as of two weeks ago, there’s seven of us, full time in the business, we have a network of about ten associate consultants that support us across a range of products, from pen testing to cyber securit consultancy 27,001 Data Protection. We're on target to hit our second year financial forecast in June of this year. And that was all done despite what was going on in the world last year. We've been very fortunate and we are very conscious of that, but, yeah, we managed to grow a business during that period and that is hard to talk about because you don't want to be celebrating when a lot of people suffered. But at the same time, we're very proud that we didn't fall apart. We'd been in business a year, we didn't know what we were going to do, so we spent a couple of months just trying to work it out and then we thought, no, let's crack on, let's do something. And we've been very fortunate that we've come out the other side in a very good position. So, yeah, that's definitely the highlight so far.

Congratulations on that massive growth. It's amazing.

Thank you very much.

What kind of advice would you give to someone who was thinking about taking the same leap from moving through being an employee to consultant?

Don't do it. We talked to a lot of people, the DPOs on slack groups and things like that, and people ask that exact question like, what do you do? How do you do it? And the first thing is, you have to network like you have never networked before. Everybody you've ever worked with, everybody you've ever come into contact with, is a potential customer. Get in touch with those people. Don't try and sell to them, but remind them who you are. Tell them that maybe this is something you're considering, maybe you're going to move into consultancy. Have they got any advice? If they got any business, is there anything you might be able to do? But then I was very fortunate. I was able to leave my current role and then be brought straight back on the Monday to fill in the gap while they essentially replace it. So we were very fortunate and had a long term engagement straight off the bat. But I've had work coming in from people that I worked with ten years ago. Because you remember those relationships and being on LinkedIn and LinkedIn is hard. But posting, being relevant, having an opinion and having an opinion is harder because there are people that will disagree with that opinion. Being prepared for that. But you have to network your ass off, get in front of people and remind people who you are and what you're good and why you're a good cultural fit for them. You'd be amazed at the people that you've come across in the past that remember you, know your name, meet you for a coffee, do it but be prepared. You are not going to get a load of sales straight away. Your first contract may take a couple of months to make sure you've got enough money saved up in the bank to pay the mortgage, pay the bills so that you're not panicking. And it will come, 100% it’ll come. The work is there, you just have to go and find it. It's definitely worth the effort. Working for yourself is liberating. It genuinely, genuinely is. It's a completely different experience.

Great advice. Thank you. So you have a YouTube channel, the data protection diaries. And what prompted you to start that?

I nearly got sacked, actually, by having the data protection diary. I'd realized again before the GDPR, that I needed a personal brand. So if I wanted to leave my job, I needed a brand, I needed people to know who I was, to be able to deliver consultancy. So I didn't really know LinkedIn at the time. And I looked around and there was a lot of the information out in the world in terms of data protection. So I filmed a vlog. It was called a day in the life of a Data Protection Officer. I've gone down to London, I was speaking at an event. So I filmed this vlog and I posted it. I'd thought probably nobody's going to watch it. I think it was only watched a few hundred times. There's a lot of misinformation out in the world. New vlogs on, explaining things, explaining lawful basis, explaining how to deal with the subject access request, things that I'd come across in my daily work I would film a vlog about because I thought that might be interesting for other people. But at the time I was filming it while employed and I was filming it in their offices. I had my work lanyard on and all these sort of things, and eventually the comms team found out about it and they were like, what are you doing? You've got our brand all over you. You can't just filming vlogs and putting on the internet. So it just kind of went from there. And we use the data protection diaries to just give information to people. And people say to me, like, you're mad. Like, why are you telling someone how to do a gap analysis? Because the people that are watching these videos don't necessarily have the money to have somebody come in. And why should that be a barrier to data protection practice? Why should that be a barrier to helping a business or to supporting your customers. Something I respect a lot is just because you're telling somebody how to do something doesn't mean that they can do it.

Yes.

And that's what the data protection diaries are about. It's about giving knowledge, sharing information, giving people a voice, a bit like the networking, showing people that this is how I do it. And a lot. Of people message me and say, thank you so much for posting that. I've been stuck on this or I'm going for a job interview and your video on how to build a framework, it's been brilliant. It's given me insight into what I can do. I've always thought that about HR processing information for HR purposes, but you've clarified it and you've made it clear. It's about giving back, and it's also about building a brand. But it's useful information. Why shouldn’t it be put out in the world? Not everything has to be commoditized, not everything has to be paid for. That's why we do it. And also, I just like talking.

I really share your passion about really creating value and giving free education and knowledge to people out there. I think that's one of the reasons why we do this Privacy Pros academy podcast is because we have audiences across over 50 countries now. It's very unaffordable for them to access the IAPP certification programs, to access really high quality European training. We get so many messages, people thanking us for putting these together, putting our webinars together and really being grateful. And one thing that I found is the more you share, the more you get back. So, yes, we are giving tips away and helping people solve these problems for themselves. But you know what? Busy people, busy CEOs, they don't want to do it for themselves. They're like, Great, OK, I know what needs to be done, but I haven’t got time for this I want to do what I do best. Can you come and take care of that for me? And the more value you put out there, the more valuable you become, I think the more you're going to start creating and attracting those opportunities to you. And you touched on a few things which I found really interesting, Richard, and these are things that we teach students on our 12 week Privacy Pros Accelerator. Number one, you spoke about the art of communication, how important it is to have those communication skills. And you also mentioned about having a personal brand and one of the biggest frustrations that I see in individuals trying to get themselves into any kind of industry is they don't have their own personal brand. They might have the competency, they might have the soft skills, but they don't know how to market themselves. And we spend a couple of weeks with our participants just focusing on building up their personal brand, how to get their voice on platforms like LinkedIn. And we also get them to deliver value by making sure they host a webinar where they hear some of the education that they've come across. So people are confident that they know what they're talking about, even though they're so new to the industry. So I completely agree with the values and the way you're going about doing things, and I love it.

Thank you. Thank you very much. It was funny when we started, iSTORM I messaged everybody that I'd ever worked with that was of a, either worked in IT or compliance. It was a certain level. It was just like, this is what we do, this is what we're going to do. If you ever need anything, ring me. And I thought that was it. I had done like, these people now know we're a consultancy, we can do pen testing, we can do all these things, they're just going to ring me, they're just going to ring me when they need me. Like it's done. Like, it's not. It's that constant churn and constant contact. Being relevant, like you say, demonstrating your knowledge is so, so important and people forget, people are not memorable. You're in a sea of information, you're in a sea of other people's information. And very often when people come to us, it's because we've posted something that just happens to resonate with an issue that they have and it just happened to be posted at the right time. So understanding that your personal brand is about being available and being out there and hawking and sharing information and doing that on a regular basis, I think it's fantastic that you're teaching people because a lot of people don't get that, they just go, I've got all these qualifications, look at my CV, of course I'm the right person for the job. That doesn't mean anybody knows who you are. Demonstrating the ability to do this role is one of the hardest things because, again, you don't have sales figures, you don't have marketing reach, you can't demonstrate that you've saved people loads of money because you're a good accountant. It all comes from referrals and from people knowing you and being able to demonstrate knowledge. And to do that, you have to be comfortable putting that content out. You have to be confident, like sharing that information so people can see what you do, because there's no other way of them knowing. So, yeah, I think it's fantastic that you're training people to do that.

So the last question for me before I give you the chance to ask Jamal anything you'd like. What do you think the data privacy industry will look like in five years?

I would like to think in one sense that it looks a bit like the infosec industry and the cybersecurity industry, so well known, respected, busy and full of really passionate people who actually care about what they're doing for a job. If you look at the cybersecurity industry at the minute, the number of people that are wanting to get into the industry is massive. There's such a passion out there for technology and what that means, and that has to be supported by good data protection and good privacy practices, because good tech means more information, more information means more risk and there needs to be people there to cover that. So I hope in the next five to ten years, that through good training, through working with a number of companies on a data protection apprenticeship program, which we hope will be available next year. So people will be able to have a data protection apprentice that will then be able to learn the job and gain the knowledge through things like the Privacy Pro accelerator, that we will have an industry of skilled knowledgeable people and the roles will continue to come. Look at One Trust, a $3 billion company four years ago, five years ago, priv tech didn't even exist. And now you've got companies that are able to do that. So the market is there, the desire is there. And I think the next five years is going to see it grow. And I would hope within ten years that we have a good mature industry that is giving something back to the economy and is doing good for consumers and people at large. Because let's face it, that's what data protection is all about. It's about protecting people and helping people to protect themselves. In ten years I'd like to retire without that as well.

Great, thank you. And now is your opportunity to ask Jamal anything you'd like.

I've got two questions and I'm debating which one to pick. Can I ask you two questions?

You can have both Richard. Of course you can.

My first question how do you see the Privacy Pro accelerator playing a part in where the industry can be in the next five to ten years? Do you think it's scalable and do you have targets for the number of people that you want to introduce to the industry? That's my first question.

All right, so the Privacy Pros Accelerator, whole idea of that you take somebody from where they are now and that could be with little or no previous experience, no legal background, you take them through a twelve week program and they come out ready to be a privacy professional that can operate in any area of the world. And the way I see that contributing is the first thing we do is we break down their mindset and build it back up again. So some people have self-limiting beliesf, some people have confidence issues because of whatever nurture or nature they've experienced, because of some of the way they've been treated in the past. So we really break all of that down and we build them back up with the Privacy Pro mindset. And there's 23 principles that guide me in everything I do when it comes to state data privacy and I really try to embed those principles into the students. Once we've got the right mindset, the next thing we focus on is building up some of those soft skills or the art of communication, being able to set goals, journaling, so many soft skills. We do this, but it's part of them building them up as valuable individuals who value themselves firstly before they think about anything else. Once we've got the mindset, right? The next thing we focus on is really giving them that education. So we put them through the IAPP CIPPE program and help them get certified. And whilst they're studying towards a certification, we take a deep dive into each of the different areas that they need to cover to really understand European legislation. And what we do with that is we take them through all of the modules and we make sure that by the time they move on to the next module, they are a subject matter expert. It's not just someone that knows and might be able to answer one or two questions based on multiple choice, but they can actually go and have a conversation with any peer in the industry and add value to that and really be able to help people. So once they've got that, now they've got the certification. So they've got the mindset, they've got the certification, they've got the knowledge. The next thing is they know the theory, but no one can say to them that they know what they're talking about because they've actually done it. So we put them through practical training. So we focus on four key areas which most businesses and an analyst level would need help with. So how to respond to a data subject request. We give them practical experience and hand them experience on that. We teach them how to create records of processing activities, how to conduct a data protection impact assessment, how to screen for it, when does it need to happen. And so what else? I said ROPA, DSARs and how to draft privacy notices as well, and the whole transparency obligations. So we give them the practical experience. So now they've got the mindset, they've got the certification, they've got the in-depth subject matter expertise, they've got the practical experience. Now they need help with branding themselves. So my career coaches will come in, they will rewrite their CVs, help them with their LinkedIn profiles, and really put them through a few weeks of training on how to really find their own voice and present value to the world. And during that process, we pick a topic for a webinar which Jamilla produces and they will come and present and they will teach people for free. We share some of that education and knowledge and usually we do it for the third sector and the not for profit sector. And it's something that we do as part of giving back. And we give them the opportunity to come and learn how to manage their programs. Sometimes they can’t access because of budget constraints, but it also demonstrates to the individuals on our program, our mentees, that you know what, you are now a person that can actually contribute value. You're able to answer questions, you know exactly what you're talking about, and you're ready to go out in the world and become a world class privacy profession.

So the more important question who's your favourite guest?

You'll have to ask me that in two year’s time Richard. Every single guest I've spoken to has something very unique to contribute. We actually have a list of people that we want to bring on and speak, and Jamilla reaches out to them. So we love what you're doing. We love your values, we love all the stuff you're putting out and all of the guests that we bring on. We value each guest. We feel there's a synergy and that's why we invite them on. But if you ask me two years later, I'll tell you my favourite interview.

I'll take that. I think what you're doing is brilliant. I think the accelerator program is very clever. I think these podcasts are brilliant. I think giving people a voice is so important because it allows us to show the world that we are human beings. We're not stuffy, we're not boring. Everybody is different. Everyone you'll speak to will be different. Everyone has a different viewpoint on why they do the role, how they do the role. And I think this kind of podcast just helps to push that out to the wider world. And if that encourages one person to come into the industry, we've all done a good job. So I'm pleased to be on here. Thank you for having me.

No, we've really enjoyed having you all. Thank you so much for joining us today.

It's been a privilege and an honour. Richard thank you.

Thank you very much.

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