Mike Williams is the Head Women’s Basketball Coach at Grand Valley State University where he just led the Lakers to back to back D2 National Championships in 2025 and 2026. In his 11 years at the helm of the Laker program, he has amassed a 314-50 (.863) overall record and a 188-28 (.870) record in the GLIAC. He has led the Lakers to six GLIAC regular season titles, four GLIAC Tournament titles, four Midwest Regional titles, and two National Championships.

This is the second stint for Williams at GVSU, as he was an assistant coach with the Lakers from 2002-2007, which included winning the 2006 Division II National Championship.

Williams spent four seasons as the head coach at Davenport, where he compiled an outstanding 130-11 (.922) overall record. Before becoming the head coach at Davenport, Williams spent four seasons as an assistant coach at Michigan. He was also responsible for starting the women's basketball program at Finlandia (NCAA Division III) in Hancock, Mich. In his three seasons as head coach (1999-2000 to 2001-02), the team owned a 44-33 (.571) record.

Williams coached for a number of years at the high school level, where he was head coach of the girls varsity team at Hancock High School from 1989 to 2000. Those teams recorded a 207-51 (.802) mark, winning eight district championships and four regional titles. For five seasons, he was also the head coach of the varsity boys team at Hancock, owning a 72-36 (.667) record.

He began his coaching career at Ironwood High School, as head coach of the girls varsity team in 1986. A few years later, Williams moved to the collegiate ranks, serving as an assistant coach during the 1988-89 season with at Michigan Tech.

On this episode Mike and Mike discuss how Grand Valley State won consecutive Division II national championships in 2025 and 2026. Wiliams shares the importance of fostering a unique team identity and the necessity of cultivating leadership among players, particularly following the loss of seasoned seniors. Coach Williams shares poignant reflections on the emotional landscape of victory, contrasting it with the weighty burden of defeat, and articulates the strategies employed to mitigate pressure while promoting a culture of continuous improvement and resilience. Our discussion also highlights the meticulous preparation required during tournament play, underscoring the balance between individual player development and team cohesion. Williams offers listeners a profound understanding of the dedication and strategic thinking that lead to back to back National Championships.

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Get ready to take some notes as you listen to this episode with Mike Williams, Head Women’s Basketball Coach at Grand Valley State University, back to back D2 National Champions in 2025 and 2026.

Website - https://gvsulakers.com/sports/womens-basketball

Email - willimi@gvsu.edu

Twitter/X - @Mike_WilliamsGV @gvsuwbb

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I lost in the state championship in high school, lost in the Nashville championship, got to a few Final Fours as a head coach and finally win it. You don't know what that's going to be like. You win, I'm like, oh, you know, you're in tears, you're choked up and nobody's crying.

Everybody's excited and they're happy and hey, let's go celebrate. So it's a different locker room after winning it than losing it.

Before becoming the head coach at DAvenport, Williams spent four seasons as an assistant coach at Michigan. He was also responsible for starting the women's basketball program at Finlandia in Hancock, Michigan.

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It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel this morning.

But I am pleased to be joined by Mike Williams, head women's basketball coach of the Division 2 back to back National Champions at Grand Valley State. Mike, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

Hey, thanks for having me on here. Good to be here.

Excited to have you on. Looking forward to diving into this national championship season.

Let me start by asking you, obviously coming off a championship last year, what's the mentality back in the fall? What are you and your coaching staff talking about? What are the conversations like with your players? What's the mindset going into this season?

You know, I think we right from day one it was we're a different team. We're not last year's team. We don't have to be last year's team.

We're our own team, our own identity talked some people that had won a national championship then tried to win another one. As far as, you know, heard Jay Wright talk about some things.

I had done it as an assistant coach Back in the day, we won like Grand Valley and what's that process for the next one? And I think the. The big thing, the big takeaway was that we weren't going to put pressure on ourselves to win a second championship.

We're just going to treat this like a new season. Last year never happened, even though it did. These guys were all major part of that last year, so they knew that.

But I think they handled really well. As far as this is new. We're approaching this day by day. Let's see how we do. And we didn't put a lot of pressure on ourselves to try and do it again.

What were the conversations like between you and your players and talking to them about just going into the season, how do you change?

Obviously, again, coming off that national championship, as you said, you don't want to put pressure on the team and have it say, hey, we got to live up to what we did this previous year. So how do you go about doing that where you sort of ease the pressure, make it feel like a different season? What does that look like?

What's the conversations like? How does that impact how you put together practices and just how you approach the season in general?

Yeah, I think, number one, you don't really address it as far as, you know, last year. You don't really bring it up a lot. You know, it's more like, what are we going to do this year?

What's our progression as far as, you know, what needs to be done? And first off, it started with, with our leaders, and we had, you know, every year you have different leaders.

For us, it's been our seniors, basically, and you don't know how they're going to do. You don't know because they really haven't been in that spot before. But they've seen it.

And it's not that they can't lead when they're younger, it's just that they kind of defer to the upperclassmen. And this year's group came in day one and said, hey, we want to be leaders. We want to shape this program and keep it moving in the right direction.

And so I thought from that first week when they came and we talked about that we're going to be in good shape with our leadership and we aren't allowed to do anything planned in the summer. You know, we can't work with our players in the summer, but our players are here.

A lot of them, they set times up in the morning when they come in and do skill stuff. They usually go from 7 to about 8:30. They do weights. They do some conditioning with our strength coach that's allowed.

And then on their own, they do some skills or three on three, four and four. And then they have a couple nights when they do pickup. And so.

And that's when those guys get that first chance to be leaders, you know, as far as, you know, not. Not necessarily running that, but be being the vocal part of all of that.

And so that was kind of the first step to make sure we had that leadership in place. We also went through a book called the Twin Thieves, and it was, ironically, should have been done a year before.

It was about a football coach in Wisconsin who had been really good teams, but kind of put too much pressure on his players, and they would always seem to falter in the. In the. In the post season. Now, we had won a championship, so we didn't falter.

But it's almost like it was really a good book because now it's that added. Like you talked about, that added pressure. And it was really a, you know, we kind of, you know, coach shares and Coach Parker kind of facilitated it.

And we kind of did, you know, two or three chapters a day. I think it was two chapters a day. And up until the first scrimmage session, we went through it. But it was a really good book.

And I think some good points were made, things that we could. We could take with us throughout the season. And each chapter, you had to come up with one major point of the chapter.

And then we have this neon board in our locker room, and then they wrote that point or that phrase on that board so we could refer back to it. So I thought that was the second step and maybe trying to have our own identity, be our own team and not put pressure on ourselves.

And then I think a lot of it's how you. Your staff handles the practices, you know, as far as.

And even the games and the scrimmages up into then, you know, you don't want to compare them to last year's team, although there are times you do. You say, hey, last year you guys did this, and now, you know, these are the things that we want to, you know, we need to do better.

But I think a lot of it was just trying to stay focused and positive and not negative and not really look too far ahead. Although you and I both know that these teams start seeing where they're at early on and knowing what could be.

And so you can't get away from addressing that animal. But it's something where you just don't you don't want me think of that. We want to stay in the moment, stay in the, stay in the day.

And I thought they did a good job with that and I thought they liked to practice. You know, again, these guys like days off. I like days off.

But when we were there to practice, I thought we enjoyed it and we accomplished a great deal in every practice session that we had.

Me a little bit about your practice philosophy and how you go about designing a day to day practice, whether it's, let's focus on, I guess, the preseason first.

When you're putting together a practice before your first game, what's that process look like for you and do you have it structured the same way every day? Is it more, hey, we got to figure out what we need on a particular day. How do you go about putting together a practice plan for your team?

Yeah, you know, we get a little unique. We get four hours a week until our first official day of practice, which is. Was about first week in October somewhere in there.

So we had about five weeks where we get four hours of basketball, four hours of conditioning and weight training. And so we do a lot of skill development in that time period. We had again, we had some returnees.

We had about six players that had played a lot and then everybody else did not play last year. It was a completely, it was like it was, you know, the team that won that championship.

We had 11, 12 players been playing a lot of minutes, a lot of games. So we had everybody back. It was like, you know, they knew what they were doing this summer. We went to Italy that year.

We had 10 practices thrown there. So we were prepared. Day one, we were ready to go like it was.

We were day one the previous year we were here and I think maybe we got to there with this year's team. I thought started off a little bit lower on the scale because of just the inexperience and those veterans really had to carry us early.

But in that, in that scope of the week, we try to hit five days a week, whether it's a, you know, a 40 minute skill session, two days, half a team for an hour, one day, and then maybe a hour and a half to hour and 45 minutes full team workout.

So we're getting the skills, we're getting some, you know, it might be the bigs and then the littles split the day and then we combine the whole team like on a, on a Friday or a Thursday and work together. So, you know, when you're touching on a lot of offensive stuff in the Skill work, but then also some defensive things.

You know, you're just working on, you know, you build your defense. Might be, might be on ball defense for this segment of this practice. Then it might be, you know, off ball gap defense and recovery.

Then it's help side defense and it's post defense. And offensively, again, same thing. Whatever, whatever it is you're breaking down to might be post work on this day.

It might be, you know, getting to the basket, a lot of, lot of, a lot of penetration, a lot of lot of baskets, a lot of finishing around the rim. On this segment, this might be footwork and shooting, shooting off the dribble, shooting off the move, shooting off the catch, reading a screen.

And then you try to combine that on that Friday we get, like I said, you get about an hour and a half, hour and 40 minutes the way the time works out. And you try to run like a full practice.

So we probably get before our first official day of practice and that first week of October, we probably got four full practices in. So it gives you a little bit. But again, if you're at that upper level, division one level, they're practicing year round.

And so you got to really be creative too. You know, there's some things that we do without a ball. There's some positioning stuff we do without a ball.

There's some movement stuff we do without a ball. In that, in that segment, that four hours without a basketball, we get really creative with that, doing some of those things to help us out.

But you're trying to jam, especially in an inexperienced team, you're trying to jam a lot in a short period of time to get yourself ready for game one.

When you looked at this team and you thought about where they could get to, and you're trying to evaluate strengths and weaknesses going into the season. If there was going to be one area that you felt might hold you back from accomplishing what this team obviously ended up accomplishing.

But what was the one thing that you were concerned about heading into the season? And then how did you try to plan for and remedy that going into your, you know, going into the season?

Yeah, that's a good question. We, we, we knew pretty early on that we were, we were really talented.

You know, we had really good players, a lot of length, a lot of athleticism, good size. Our guards were solid. We knew that the talent was there.

I think the one thing we weren't sure was our depth and somewhat of our experience inexperience in the backup roles. You know, like we had six players Coming back, boom, they're ready to go. You know, they were ready to roll.

They had played minutes, they had played in the national championship games. You got six, a core of six really good players. You're in pretty good shape at our level.

And then now what's that going to look like, you know, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 down the line. And so that was kind of our question mark as far as what's that depth going to be? What's an experience going to look like?

Where can we get them there?

Like I said, a lot of our early season practice was, was focusing on that, you know, the 7 through 12, those players, whatever, 13, 14, 15, whoever was going to be. Because we had some players redshirt as well, you know, this year that just weren't going to get the minutes they need to get.

And so they decided to redshirt. But so it was a lot of focusing on that. A lot of drills in practice, a lot of reps for these young players.

A lot of our seniors did a great job communicating to these youngsters that haven't played a lot, you know, are coming off an injury of what it needs to be. And then there had to be a lot of pay attention to detail in practice. You know, I thought, I thought coaching wise we really explained things.

We were very clear because we had to be clear not for those top six, the returnees, but for everybody else. So it was very, it was precise in our explanations. Here you're doing this drill.

Here's the two points you have to remember and you have to remember them. You can't forget them because you're going to need them down the road.

And so thought we did a really good job with that and I thought our players did a really good job paying attention. We do something different. We like to, you know, since we had numbers, we set up some scrimmages.

We're able to play some teams back to back because you get a, you get a four hour segment to scrimmage. Usually you go play one team, you play four quarters and you're kind of focusing more on your upperclassmen.

Well, this year we had a chance to, you know, to scrimmage some division ones and piggyback and play a NEI team or Division 3 team on top of it. So we end up getting out of our four three scrimmage dates, we end up getting six scrimmages.

And in those scrimmages, those younger players played a lot. The players that were experienced play got a lot of time in those scrimmages. And so, and again, this is, this all helps.

You know, we, we're, we're, we're really into a little, you know, doing a little many times over can mean a lot.

You know, and so getting those players in just those scrimmages, getting those minutes, you know, we did a lot more film this year, a lot of film breakdown before and after practice and on off days to really get points across for those younger players. And then I thought we did a good job early in the year of playing those players that hadn't played as much in the previous year.

We got them in, we got them in situations where maybe in the past I wouldn't be as, you know, as eager to put them in because at our level, you know, we're not, you know, the BCS level, you're playing the, you're in the Big Ten. The Big Ten is good, but they're getting 13 teams in the NCAA tournament. You're going to play, you're going to, you know, 500 your Big Ten.

You buy seven money games, schedule a couple others. You win your 20 games, you're in the NCAA tournament.

For us, you know, in our deal, and our region is so strong every year, you got to win your games, you got to win to get in the NCAA tournament, you got to win those non conference games. And then in our level, you can host, obviously, if you do really well, which you know, we did last year and the year before.

So if you do really well and you don't lose any of those in those preseason games, you can host the region tournament, which is a big advantage in Division 2. So we're kind of under that microscope of not being able to lose if you want all those things to fall in place. So it's hard to throw players in.

Well, throw them in. If you lose early, it helps you out later on and it might, but it might hurt you because you don't get the NC tournament, you know, hosier regional.

That makes sense.

No, it totally makes sense. And I think, right. That's a balance that all the coaches are trying to find out, right.

You're trying to say, hey, how can we get our players who aren't as experienced that we may need at some point down the road in the season to fortify our returning players and yet at the same time, like you said, the winning piece of it. And I know that at the Division 2 and the Division 3 level, that ability to be able to host those early rounds of the NCAA tournament is huge. Right.

When you're trying to make a Run, especially when you're a good team and you have national championship aspirations, to be able to make that path, whatever percent easier it will be by playing at home, you certainly, you certainly want to do that.

So when you look at your season, was there a moment in the season where you and your mind, and you probably didn't share it directly with your players, based on our conversation, but when you and your mind thought, hey, I think this team, I think this team has a chance to win a second one, was there a specific moment or was it just kind of a slow build over the course of the year?

Yeah, there was two defining moments. And we went over and did a demonstration for B Cam and we put our players out there.

We did, went through kind of a mini practice and we did some defensive things and some drills, some competitive drills and coach shares, did a couple offensive things and we went for about an hour and 15 minutes and I got done with that and I thought, oh, my, this team is extremely talent. It was really, really.

And we had some coaches come and say, whoa, you guys, your length, your athleticism, your size is really is different in our level. So that was one moment I thought, wow, this team is, is, is really good.

And we were, there was a lot of concern because our conference is so dang good and our region's so dang good that we were like, you know, where are we going to stack up? Because Northern Michigan had returned, a lot of their players were really good. Wisconsin, Parkside return a lot of their players.

Ferris State return a lot of their players. Wayne State return a lot of their players. And good players. You know, these guys, these were all, all conference players.

And so, you know, Michigan Tech had a banner year. So we knew that early on, like, we were pretty good, but our conference was really good as well.

You know, we knew they all had a lot of star power and they're well coached and in battle tested. So there was concern, but we knew we'd be pretty good, talented.

And then we went, we had a couple, we screwed a couple of scrimmage games early on and played really well, better than we did probably the previous year against some really good couple Division one teams and, and some good NAI teams and, and, and thought, you know what, this team's, this team different, you know, and again, you gotta, you gotta hope you, you know, the officials don't blow a game for you, which they, they always tend to do. And you gotta hope you don't get injuries. You gotta hope that, you know, you don't have a off game. And something happens.

But I think with those two scenarios, early in the season, we thought we had a chance to be pretty good.

I think when you're putting together your schedule and obviously when you have your league and how good the league is and you're.

You're trying to balance out, again, it's what you talked about before, where you want to have your team prepared and play a great schedule so that when you get to the tournament, that your team is prepared. And at the same time, like you said, it's important to be able to win games so that you can have that opportunity to.

To host the tournament and be able to sort of, again, ease your road in whatever possible way that you can, whether that's a 1%, 2%, to make the road a little bit smoother.

So when you get to the tournament, talk to me a little bit about the tournament, the way it broke for you in terms of the draw and where your mindset was going into the NCAA tournament.

Well, you know, again, we're. We're hosting the region. Okay. And I don't know if anybody's feeling like Division 2, but it's, you know, Division 1's got to figure it out.

Division 3's got to figure out any. Has got to figure it out. Division two. Just can't seem to. To figure this whole thing out. And I'm gonna make a case here if you. I.

Because I just think it's. It's got to change. And so basically, you're. It's not really a national term. You see, you won the national championship. No, not really.

It's really a regional tournament, basically, because you're. You're picking the teams in your region who might be. You know, you might have 15 teams, your region that should be in the top 64, only eight get in.

And then in your region, you might have four or five of the top 10 teams in the country like we did this year, and you're all in the same region. So you basically, you know, you know, Northwood or Wayne State, whoever we beat along the way. Wow. They only made this. No, they didn't.

They played the national championship. These. These could have been playing the final Four lead eight. So you look at that draw when it. When it. And when it comes out.

And again, we were fortunate enough that first round you draw, you're the one seed. And then Maryville's eight seed, they won. Their. Their conference tournament, got in. So now our kids are excited because they're playing.

So they hadn't played before. They're excited. These Guys are like, finally, they're not playing Ferris State for the fourth time. Northern Mission for the fourth time.

Wayne State for the fourth time. You just got done playing these teams in the GLIAC tournament. They're going to play them again a week later. You know, just the.

I, the foolishness of the whole thing is crazy. And again, your kids aren't excited to play Wayne State the fourth time, and neither is Wayne State. They don't play each other.

They want to play somebody else. So we get to play Maryville. So our kids are excited. And then we, we beat them. And all of a sudden now we got to go play Wayne State.

Who's really good. Who, who we want at home by one. Maybe it's the third place by one. And I think it ain't going to happen.

And we're thinking here two of the best teams in the country playing round to the NC tournament, and you're playing for the fourth time. So anyway, Panzo, we end up winning that game, played very well. And again, we're at home. They're not. That's. That's an advantage for us, no question.

You know, and again, that's another thing too, you know, Wayne State, really good, has to play us on, on our home floor, you know, and we had a heck of a crowd. So, you know, we went now. And then also we're going to play Northwood in the regional final. Who again? We played again. We played it before, so.

And again, you only played them once. Your kids are excited. But you win that now you get a chance.

You go to Pittsburgh and they take the eight teams left and they see them on the RPI or the KPI and so we end up being the one and Newman ends up being the eight. And now we know we're going to play three teams we never played before. And so you just, you're excited to play.

And I think the draw worked out really well.

You know, I think, you know, we ended up winning each game pretty handily, but we played at a level, you know, we just got a little bit better as the year went on and we were playing at a high level at the end of the year when we got the Elite eight in Pittsburgh and, you know, indianapa played them in the final. They had a really good team. They played a really good schedule. They had to tangle with Gannon, who was a tough team.

They had to beat them two out of three times to get there. They beat, you know, Kyler Mace was really good. They beat them in the, in the semis.

So the Final game was a great game against Indiana, Pennsylvania and two good teams. And like I said, I think our kids were, were playing at a really high level in that, in that final.

Elate 8 what does your prep look like during the tournament when you have a relatively short back to back time in between games? What's the film study look like for you?

What are the things that you specifically look for in each team in terms of your preparation for your team for the next game and a tournament run?

Yeah, so the good thing is with our staff, we got every team broken down. We're going to play before we play them, which is really good. So we kind of, we're ahead of the game.

I think everybody else probably does that as well. But our big thing is we, we, we like to use more time but we don't wear our players legs out. So that's big on us.

You know, this year, the way it worked out this year we would practice like it was a GLIAC game. We practice pretty hard on Monday, taper on Tuesday and then on Wednesday we really didn't do anything. We just walked through.

We just did a walk through shot around, did some film maybe, maybe 35, 40 minutes at the most. It was kind of that day before the game we just did nothing, really nothing on the legs.

And then we do a shooter on the day of the game which is pretty lively. It's 45 to 50 minutes. We go through drills and we guard their stuff and we do some offensive movements. So there's a lot to the shooter on.

But that day before is really a day of really not doing much. And we kind of, we continue that. Yeah, in the in lead eight. You know you played on that. We played on that Tuesday and then Wednesday off.

So Wednesday was film walk, you know, maybe a dynamic drill or something but nothing much. And then that day of the morning of the game, you know we end up getting about a 50 minute shoot on time. That was pretty lively. Pretty.

A lot of pop to it. You know get go through things and we played the game. Then you, you didn't play. We played on Thursday, we won. So now we've got Friday same thing.

You know, just really a lot of film go through things.

No personnel know what they do know in guard every situation offensively look do they press and where's your what spaces, what spots you get to against the press? Where your looks against that press. What press Brick? We're going to run.

You know offensively we're going to, you know, we're going this some high Low action against this team.

You know here, here's where the doubles are coming from, all that stuff but nothing live on that Friday and then again Saturday morning get up pretty lively shoot around. It's, It's. It's a 45 minute practice. You know, people watch our shoot ons go wow, you guys go pretty hard the day of the game. And, and we do, we do.

But it seemed, it's something we kind of stuck with through the year and it seemed to work. And as long as you didn't get that shoot on too close to our game time.

Our kids seem to get that, you know that four or five hours to recover and, and really felt good during the game.

That film work are you look mostly looking at team, team stuff and actions that you have to defend. Are you looking more at showing individual players who their matchup might be personnel wise? What kind of film work are you showing the players?

Yeah, we do both and our, we're really basic like our, it's funny because we got to the tournament, you know in men's. Our men's program uses when they do a scouting report like number 11 is, is Steph Curry can't let him shoot.

We use GLIAC players because they're so doggone good. You know it was like this player is McKenna Ferguson, this player JC Weiss, but this player's Caleb Blanchard.

You know that was kind of our Maeve St. John from Northwood. And so because our players recognizing like oh okay this is what this player does. But kudos to GLIAC is such, such a good conference.

But it was more or less okay. This player can't get a shot off. This player is going to, wants to pull up dribble going left.

This player wants to get all the way to the rim going right or left. You maybe gave them two things on each player on the personnel. So we show a bunch of clips.

They, they, we would put jerseys on of our, you know the second the group that would run the other team stuff we put a jersey number on.

So they get used to that the number they're guarding because they, you know sometimes they don't know who by face who they're guarding when you, when you play them one time. But they know the number to get them acclaimed. Okay, we're not flying at this. This is, this is 13 non shooter red driver don't fly at them.

You know so a lot of personnel stuff and then yes there was more a lot of team stuff. You know what, what do they do offensively? Was it a. They want to go low block? Do they want to, they want to space the floor?

Is it, Is it ball screen actions and handoff action? Is it, is a down screen action? Is it, you know, you know, what are they running on offense that we need to guard? What is, what do they like to do?

You know, are they a team that wants to get to the rim? Do they want to shoot it so all those points come in, you work on those. Then offensively, you know, how do they guard the ball screen?

How do they guard the high low? Do they front the post? They play behind? Do they double from a certain area, you know, that we look forward? Do we got to cut the backside?

We got to cut the strong side on the doubles? You know, are they a team that wants to get in you and pressure you, or do they like to lay off and let you get your shot? Do they want to press you?

You know, and sometimes when you have time to prepare, Northwood through a really good little, little two, two on three quarter court press against us, the regional final, that didn't have a chance to prepare for and it was really a good look for us. Took us some time to figure it out.

So all those different things you're kind of looking at and you put together and hopefully a, a condensed scouting report that your players can understand. I'm not a guy that can understand a lot of stuff. You can't give me 42 plays and six things about each player. This guy likes to dribble, spin back.

You give me two things, maybe three. And so that's kind of what we, that's how I coach is we can't overload these players.

We just give them some basic things so they, they don't, you know, they, they can understand them and they're able to, to carry them out in the game.

Absolutely.

If what you give them isn't actionable and you're overloading them, it probably ends up going the other way and being detrimental instead of positive, without question.

I think that's a, that's a really good point for any coach out there trying to learn something today that if you just keep it simple and get things that you give them two or three things that their play at, your players can actually learn and execute, then you're probably ahead of the game. All right, you win the national championship back to back. You're in the locker room. You didn't really talk about it all year.

You said at the beginning here that right from the start of the season, you tried to put the previous year's national championship to the side and make this its own team. So now you finally get to that national championship game, you win it. What do you talk about with your team in the locker room after the game?

You know, there wasn't a lot.

It's funny because when you lose that last game and you talk longer, you just, you do, you go through things because you feel for these players that lost their last game, you know, And I watched a little special on Jerry west and he just said, jerry west says basketball is about sports, about dealing with losing. Because you lose, only one team wins your last game. That's it. Everybody else loses their last game. So you got to deal. How do you deal with losing?

And so, you know, and you, and when you win it, these guys have won it all. They didn't lose. So they're in there, they're happy. They're not, they're not sad. They're. They're in a good mood. You're in a good mood.

You tell them some great things, talk about a few things. You know, for me, this year was a little bit more of a relief. I don't know, last year was. You celebrate a little bit more.

The first and second was like a relief that you want it because you're, for some reason you're expected to win it again. I don't know. But there was, there wasn't a lot said, you know, there wasn't a lot. Just how proud you are, these players and what they did.

And you, you, you hit on a couple of those things.

Like, you talk a lot about your seniors because they're done and the things that they've done, you know, as far as what they accomplished and what great leaders they were and how they, they really kept this team together. And, you know, and then you, you talk about now you know what it's like.

And you guys have, some of you have been part of this two times, some of you one time. But now this is, this is your. Keep this in your mind because this is what you're striving for next year. You know, can you, can you do this again?

But, you know, it's a, it's different, you know, and only one time I said, you know, I lost in a state championship in high school, lost in NI national championship, got you a few final fours as a head coach and finally win it. You know what that's going to be like? You win it like, oh, you know, cuz you're in tears, you're choked up, your kids and nobody's crying.

Everybody's excited and they're happy and hey, let's go celebrate. So it's, it's a, it's a different, different locker room after winning it than losing it.

That's good stuff.

And I think it does hit on right that when you lose it, there's a lot more trying to process what just happened and help everybody to deal with the fact that you put in all that blood, sweat and tears and it didn't end up the way you wanted to. And then when it does, like you said, everybody, you look around and everybody's happy. There's not much explanation that needs to go on.

You're just enjoying the emotion of getting that victory. And that winning locker room is always a great place to be. All right, before we get out, I want to ask you a final two part question.

So part one, when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being the biggest challenge? Obviously you come back next year as back to back national champ. So your biggest challenge.

And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every day, what brings you the most joy? So your biggest challenge and then your biggest joy.

Yeah, I think, you know, looking next year again, you gotta, you gotta fight that, that complacency that, well, you know, we wanted winning, you know, we've done already. Coach, you told us to be hard to win back to back. And look, we did this, so now let's go again. But I think our, I think our players are different.

I don't know this. We had a postseason, we end up getting five days to work with our players in the postseason. I thought it was different.

I thought they, I think they understand what's ahead. I don't think they're taking for granted. I think they really want to make their own mark, whatever that means.

It might be a 15 win season, might be 21 season, might be a deep run. We don't know that. But I think they're ready to, to be their own team. And I think they saw that last year that that team was their own team.

They want to be like that, you know, so fighting some of those things, you know, we lost some really, really solid perimeter players, you know, so to really replace that, to really get these players up to speed on the perimeter, some of these new players is going to be a challenge and I think they're up for it. I think that's, I think they understand that. I think the good thing with this team is they understand these things. They're not offended by it.

Like, okay, well, this is what we got to do. Then they want to do it and so now will they do it? I don't know. It's easier said than done, you know.

But if they're willing to do it, I think we got a chance to be pretty good again. But it's going to take a lot of work, you know, and then where's the leadership going to come from again?

You know, it's the same thing now next year we don't have any seniors. We're two steps removed. And we went through this two years ago and we had a pretty good team but we lost in the regional final affairs state.

They went on to the lead aid but we didn't have any leaders. And so I think as far as our staff, we could do a better job of working with them. And we can't do a ton of the summer.

We can send them information and some things to guide them along but you can't really deal individually with the basketball end of it. But we know we can start practice in the fall. We gotta be very, you know, pointed in how we help these leaders, work with these leaders.

You know, we talked about having whatever the saying is or some type of theme going into the next year and our players are working on that. So those can be the three challenges as we move forward. I think the biggest joy is, you know, is to see these players when they come back.

You know, number one, I guess there's two, two fold number one is to see these players progress from when they come in as freshmen, to leave here as seniors or fifth year seniors or redshirt seniors.

To see them progress and grow as people, to get close to them, to get to know them, to get to know their families, I think is, really, is really rewarding, you know, and it, there's a lot of, you know, I'm a, I'm such a pessimist type guy and glass half full guy that these players have helped me try to change a little bit. You know, at least now there is something in that glass.

Whenever I thought there was before, but you know, just to, just to grow with these players over the five years if they're here and get to know them and see them.

And then I think the second part that's rewarding is when they come back, you know, we had, and I get so teary talking about our players that come back, even thinking about it.

But we go to the lead eight and there's, you know, we had probably six to eight players, former player, maybe more than that, maybe a dozen former players that came to the game and some came with their families and some showed up unattended. And you see them after the game and then you're invited to their weddings and you see them out and someone's deer hunting on your property.

And just the different relationships that you make with your players and their families and the people is, it's, it's often. It's unbelievable. It really is. You don't, I don't know, I'm not in any other profession.

You know, I waited tables in college and mowed some lawns, but that stuff.

But you know, as far as, is there another profession when you connect with people this intimately and closely and, and just the number of connections because you're, you're. It's five or six every year, you know, and, and to get a text message from, in an email from.

My first job was in Iowa, Michigan, coaching girls basketball. I take the tennis team and one of the freshman's on my tent, he was three doubles, he sends me an email. So I went last time to Congratulations.

You don't know who I am. Remember me? I do remember you. You were three doubles and your partner was Dale Pisani. I remember you.

Okay, but just to get those emails and you correspond with them, you know, 42 years later, it speaks volume of this profession.

It's awesome and it's really well said.

I always like to talk about the fact that there's nothing better as a coach than to get a text, get a phone call, get an email that starts with hey coach. Because you know, it's somebody that, from your past that you had an impact on.

And sometimes, right, you're sitting there and sometimes you wonder what kind of impact am I having in this moment? And, and then you look back in retrospect and you realize that you did have a huge impact on the young people's lives that you touched.

And the fact that you get to do it with a game you love and use basketball as the vehicle to be able to do that is, is special. Last thing before we wrap up, if you wouldn't mind just sharing how people can reach out to you, connect with you.

Find out more about your program, whether you share email, social media, school, website, whatever you want. And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah, you know, we obviously people email me, we get emails all the time about people that want to come and just watch practice.

And when you watch practice and you converse, you know, you come and watch a practice, you talk after you talk before you get coffee, whatever after we're always open to that. We probably get 10 to 12 people come and watch a practice and see how things are doing and we kind of coordinate it too.

Where you're coming to watch a practice that's worth watching, just don't come to something that's not going to be there. But we go, you know, hey, what are you going to do today? And our practices are pretty loaded.

You know, a segment, offensive segment, defensive segment, skill building segment and then a team portion of it and then a special situation. So we go through a lot in the practice, in our two hour practice and cover a lot of areas.

You kind of see, you know, how intense the practices are, how you move from drill to drill, what, you know, it's not so much sometimes what you work on because we all work on different things. But you know, someone let a couple, a couple coaches come back three, four times to watch what we do pressing wise, you know, hey, can we come watch?

Yes. It would be a big press segment today. We're 45 minutes, break it down, things like that or, you know, whatever.

But I think that's a good way to get in touch with, to just see some things. And again, we always think you got to watch. Tom, I'm not saying I'm going to say names.

We, we always got to watch the, the BCS coaches, they know everything and they are, they're good, they're good coaches.

But man, I'll tell you the stuff I got, some press work stuff I got two years ago from Keith Haske, was a high school coach up in Lower Peninsula and you know, some offensive stuff from Scott Carlson and just, you know, different people that you watch.

I watch teams we play, you know, I, we lost to Kim Calvo who's now at Tennessee, but she was at Glenville State and she pressed and we used some stuff that she did, you know, so I think you can learn from anybody. We had this, that we got us. The guys at the top are the smartest, the best, whatever. Yeah, maybe.

But sometimes they're just lucky, you know, sometimes you get lucky and, and you get to the top and you're pretty good.

But these high school coaches and small college coaches, man, there's some really, really good ones and they're the ones that have been through the ring, they grind it, you know, they got to work with players that aren't elite. So they got to figure out different ways and you can learn a lot from a lot of, a lot of different people.

There is no question that there is outstanding coaches at every level of the game.

It's for sure one of the things that I knew going into the podcast, but certainly after having talked to so many coaches at so many different levels, the the basketball knowledge and expertise is not limited to the highest levels of the game. There are outstanding coaches at every single level of the game of basketball.

Mike, once again congratulations on the Back to back Division 2 Women's National Championships. Really appreciate your time this morning and glad we had the opportunity to talk with you and to everyone out there.

Thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode. Thanks. Your first impression is everything when applying for a new coaching job.

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