Refine Labs has changed the course of B2B marketing over the past few years.
Challenging conventions on attribution and funnel tracking and championing new ways of generating demand, this agency has broken pretty much every mold and driven the conversation and debate.
Today we're joined by SVP of Marketing Sidney Waterfall, who produces much of the Refine Labs IP and brings together both deep demand gen and RevOps expertise. In this in-depth discussion we unpack the nitty-gritty of the Refine Labs methodology.
Many thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak.
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What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners.
Sidney Waterfall is SVP of Marketing at Refine Labs, with responsibility for GTM strategy, demand generation, product marketing, product strategy, and ultimately driving revenue for Refine Labs services and products.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidneywaterfall/
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WelcOme to Rev Ops fm everyone.
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:Today we are joined by the
amazing Sydney Waterfall, SVP of
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:Marketing at Refine Labs, where she
leads GTM and Revenue for Vault.
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:if you're not familiar with Refine Labs,
while you really should be, they're a
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:demand generation agency that, from my
point of view have really been leading the
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:discussion when it comes to go-to-market
strategy the past four years or so.
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:their
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:thought leadership has
had a big impact on me.
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:It's changed a lot of the ways that I
look at marketing, Sydney has been one
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:of the most prominent voices from refine
labs out on LinkedIn, evangelizing a
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:different and better way to do marketing.
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:So Sydney, I am super excited
to have you here today.
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:Sidney Waterfall: Wow.
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:Thank you for that intro.
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:That's great, . Super
excited to chat with you.
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:Justin Norris: have a, just
a little bit of background.
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:I know you've been at Refine
Labs about three years or so.
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:what led you to there?
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:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, I was always
in B two B SaaS and kind of on the
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:demand and operations side is my
background been a long time listener
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:of season one of Demand Gen live with
Walker and Gaana Denar, and I was
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:Listening to all of that, trying to
transition my org that I was at off
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:the MQL hamster wheel a more modern
approach, and was pretty successful in
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:some of the initial pilots and the proof
of concepts that I was able to run,
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:especially with our paid media spend,
but ultimately couldn't really get the
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:full alignment of the company on board.
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:And so I thought, well, what if I
go work for Refine Labs, um, . And
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:it kind of was serendipitous.
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:I, uh, closely connected
with, Judy Sheriff who had
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:been working at Refine Labs.
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:So it kind of just, it was a,
it's a big world, but a small
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:world in tech at the same time.
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:so it kind of just worked out.
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:And I started at Refine Labs,
I think as employee number 15.
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:Back in, well, I was interviewing
in:
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:right at the beginning of the year.
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:So I'm coming up on my
anniversary in January.
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:actually
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:Justin Norris: which is like being
a dinosaur in tech, you know, to
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:stay at a place more than two years,
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:Sidney Waterfall: It's like,
okay, you're a legacy now.
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:Or like you, we say you're like
a five year tenured employee
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:if you're there for two years,
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:Justin Norris: you get the Rolex
watch and everything like that.
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:So, I mean, alluded to, MQL hamster wheel,
which is, I know, something that, that
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:Chris often talks about on his podcast
and refine labs has, a clear Opinion
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:and perspective on a lot of the things
that are not working well in B two B.
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:It's probably a, a sizable list.
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:And I'm curious for you, you
know, we're, a few years into
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:this message being out there.
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:What are some of the things that
you're still seeing the market
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:that are just not working?
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:People doing things that are
broken, that are not effective?
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:does it look like from your perspective?
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:Sidney Waterfall: So surprisingly, you
know, we've been talking about, and
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:not just us, but other people, other
marketers, other people in the market
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:have been talking about, you know,
the transition from lead gen to demand
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:gen and you know, kind of beating that
drum for the past two to three years.
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:And a lot of people are kind of
like, oh, like we get it, you
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:know, it's an old message, right?
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:Surprisingly though a lot of
people are still running a, like a
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:predominantly lead gen driven approach,
especially in larger organizations.
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:And I think that's just due to
the fact that larger organizations
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:are slower to change and take a
lot more convincing to change.
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:So the, agile or slightly smaller
orgs are kind of shifting faster.
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:So even though it's maybe to some
people a message that they've heard
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:a lot, it's still very much being
executed, predominantly lead gen
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:approach and overall go to market.
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:Like how are we gonna get these
marketing qualified leads?
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:How are we gonna qualify them?
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:People are still forecasting that way.
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:So that's still very much a thing.
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:I would say that there's a good
chunk of companies, especially
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:in tech, that are adopting more.
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:Blended approach where they're trying
to do a hybrid and then transition
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:into a full demand gen approach.
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:a couple of other things that I've seen
that have stayed the same are the lack
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:of, um, importance on data structure and
operations just in general as a function,
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:which I'm sure you're very aware of
and probably people that listen to this
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:podcast, are probably nodding their heads.
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:I do think that is slightly
changing though, given like
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:the macro economic, conditions.
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:It's forcing companies to be more strict
or more like quote unquote data driven.
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:And it's like no longer an
excuse not to have . Data to
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:report on certain things anymore.
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:Like that's not acceptable.
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:It's not an excuse.
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:Your CFO is not going to care.
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:Your CMO is more motivated
to fix these things.
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:Same with all of your leadership.
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:So think that's turning, but still
very much something I say that has
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:stayed the same in organizations.
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:And then outside of, I would say like
media and demand, I just think that
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:has stayed the same is lack of focus on
messaging and positioning, leads to like
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:clearer differentiation in, the market
and the messages that you're putting out.
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:Justin Norris: That one is huge.
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:It never ceases to amaze me like,
we'll spend so much money distributing
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:a message might not be resonating
or that is just full of buzzwords.
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:That doesn't make sense.
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:undifferentiated.
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:you alluded, to the difference between
lead gen and demand gen, and maybe
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:just for the benefit of, people
that, don't have that distinction
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:firmly in their minds, how would
you summarize that in a nutshell?
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:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, so lead gen is
really the act of marketing to acquire
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:an email address or a singular lead.
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:It's very conversion based,
at a very high level.
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:And the goal is volume, not necessarily
quality, it's kind of an assembly line.
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:You know, this goes back to gated
content webinars, just to get people
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:to consume them, register and get
the email addresses to pass to sales.
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:I think it's also a little
bit of a mindset too.
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:It's not just necessarily the
tactics, it's like ingrained
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:in mindset in the organization.
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:It's kind of built into an operating model
the demand gen approach, which there's so
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:many different definitions of demand gen,
but what we think is really this concept
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:of creating demand, capturing demand, and
converting demand, and that's doing that
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:In a buyer-centric way, so I
can break down the definitions
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:of those terms as well.
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:demand creation is proactively educating
your target market who may not be
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:aware of the problems or challenges
that solves They might not even
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:be aware of your overall category,
or your overall brand reference.
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:that's essentially the to 99% of people
creating demand a demand gen approach is
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:going to be much more focused on educating
people, without having to gate that
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:content or acquire information from them.
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:Like a lead gen approach would be, right.
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:instead of taking your, any asset
or content and . asking something,
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:asking for an email address or
something in return, and then
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:giving it, you're giving it upfront
and educating them a known lead.
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:So think about it from like a
known lead conversion to kind
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:of anonymous, education there.
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:And then, demand capture.
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:is really acquiring solution
aware prospects that are actively
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:searching for your solution.
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:this is you know that
they're actively searching.
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:You can tell by the intent
based on the channel or based
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:on first party intent as well.
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:So think about like review
sites, Google search, high intent
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:keywords, like, you know, that
they're actually in buying mode.
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:So that's demand capture
then converting demand.
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:Is really, once you have that demand
capture, how are you going to, guide
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:them down a process, usually a sales
process, but guide them down, an
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:experience to purchase a product.
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:Justin Norris: I have seen over, the
past one to two years, this approach
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:take shape in the marketplace, in
the sense that I can identify on
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:LinkedIn, maybe on other channels, can
see they are, they creating demand.
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:They're self-consciously going
out, trying to create demand.
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:I would say Hockey Stack is a
company that stands out for me.
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:I don't know if they're a client
of yours or not, but they seem
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:to be doing a really good job.
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:that from my point of view.
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:the same time, I've also spoken to
people where they kind of conceptually
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:understand the importance of doing this.
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:They can see it.
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:not the gap, the gap is more, okay, but
then wait a second, how do we measure it?
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:So it's kind of like, create
demand, but, oh, wait a second.
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:I don't know what the world looks
like when I go out on that and
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:everything that's familiar
kind of becomes stripped away.
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:and so there's a huge inertia has
been my observation, companies in
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:the existing ways of doing things.
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:I don't know if you've seen that too.
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:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, I would
very much agree that's one of the
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:things that we've helped with the
most is kind of, okay, come in.
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:I'm bought in on the methodology.
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:I like this way of marketing, but like,
I'm not really sure how to make this
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:strategic shift in my organization.
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:And I say that 'cause it is a
strategic shift in your organization.
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:It's not at the marketing level.
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:not just like, oh, the marketing team's
gonna be doing some new things here, , and
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:you're gonna be seeing some new stuff.
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:it's, it's really a strategic shift.
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:and I think measurement and then
the actual execution of the strategy
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:or the two things that companies
struggle with the most order to
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:actually get this off the ground.
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:So how do you implement
something like this?
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:Well, the first step is acknowledge
and accept that the buyer behavior
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:has changed and your current approach.
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:Maybe it's lead gen,
maybe it's something else.
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:Who knows?
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:Is maybe not as effective and you wanna
change your mindset and you wanna adopt
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:this new strategic approach, right?
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:You kind of have to have that
strategic mindset, saying, yes,
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:I want to go down this path.
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:really hard to change someone's mind.
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:Justin Norris: to ask, 'cause is that
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:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
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:Justin Norris: to like the CEO level,
like full board level alignment?
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:how deep does that alignment need to go?
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:Sidney Waterfall: I think it depends
on the size of the organization, not
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:necessarily board level, but when
we get into measurement, we will
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:hit on probably board level metrics.
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:I definitely see the marketing
leader and the sales leader
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:and the operations leader.
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:So any go-to-market leadership kind
of needs to be bought in normally
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:What we've seen is like marketing's
really driving the strategic change.
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:However, sometimes sales will come
to us and say, Hey, like, we want you
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:to help us and our marketing team.
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:So it's interesting when sales
comes in as the driver, right?
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:That's like, okay, let's happen in here.
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:at the leadership level, not necessarily
has to be at the CEO or board level, but
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:definitely at the leadership level, that
level might look a little bit different.
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:If you're talking in a big org, maybe
you have global teams, regional teams,
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:you know, the, you're gonna have
molar level, so maybe it's at like
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:the SVP level and not the C level,
depending on structure and your internal
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:politics and things like that are.
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:And also like your internal trust too.
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:It's a transition.
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:It's not just like, Hey, switch this off,
turn this on and we'll see how it goes.
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:So, You can kind of phase into it as well.
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:that is step one is really
kind of acknowledging that,
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:trying to change the mindset.
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:And I think you just need like
two or three champions at that,
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:leadership level to kind of really it.
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:The next step is after you've changed
your mindset, it's measurement.
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:Everything always comes back to the
KPIs, the goals and how we're being
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:measured and how is the business looking
at this from a performance standpoint.
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:you know, instead of focusing on a
conversion based lead approach, we
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:really have to take a step back and
say, okay, you're used to, net new
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:contact inquiry, lead, MQL as everything
super trackable at each of those funnel
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:stages when we make this transition.
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:Basically what we are doing is
we're saying we're not gonna force
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:the buyer to become known to us.
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:We are going to let that buyer be
anonymous until they are ready to
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:convert on their time, which means
we're gonna lengthen the window
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:where we don't have all this great
trackable data around that person.
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:But by doing that, we're gonna
have a much better experience and
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:we're going to drive better quality
conversions on higher quality offers
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:than what we're doing right now.
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:That maybe is less effective.
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:Justin Norris: And that idea,
I think, provokes existential
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:terror in some people who
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:Sidney Waterfall: yes.
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:Justin Norris: So you But no, but my
waterfall, my, my metrics, my funnel.
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:how do you overcome those
objections when they come up?
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:Sidney Waterfall: so the first thing
is to say, we take a step back and
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:say, we are still going to look at
M qls, but we're gonna probably have
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:a different definition of what an
MKL is than what you are used to.
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:And we can still look at people
engaging with content and net new
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:subscribers or net new leads, but
the volume is going to go down.
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:So yes, people do kind of panic and
say, oh gosh, well how do I forecast?
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:And like, how do I know?
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:What are my leading indicators?
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:So we kind of go through that process
with them, like, we're still gonna
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:track, you know, cost per MQL and
go all the way down your funnel.
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:But what the MQL means
is going to be different.
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:We very much lean into, instead of
blending all M QLS together, we're
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:gonna look at cost per, declared intent
hand raisers versus non hand raisers.
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:So kind of splitting the funnel
there and saying, okay, and that's
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:what we really like to focus on, is
when you make this change, you're
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:gonna see overall m QLS go down, but
in, depending on your sales cycle.
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:But in about a quarter to two quarters,
you should see your hand raises are what
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:we call declared intent, MQL increase, and
the quality of those and the conversion of
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:those are gonna result in more . Qualified
opportunities, pipeline and revenue.
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:And so we have to really honestly
like model that out for people to see.
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:So then they say, okay, well my top
of funnel volume's gonna go down.
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:I'm not gonna have as much success at like
forecasting how many meetings marketing's
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:gonna source, or how that top of funnel.
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:But when we model that out for them,
I think it helps kind of show them,
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:okay, well now we're gonna look at
this, it's gonna be lower volume.
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:What else should we look at?
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:So we call them kind of indicators.
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:So we wanna look at, you know,
traffic to, but from all sources,
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:not just paid sources, right?
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:But like, traffic to
your high intent pages.
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:Engagement with the
campaigns that we're running.
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:Not necessarily click through
rate, but actual engagement with
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:the messages and things like that.
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:And you also have some in platform
conversions that you can set up
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:that are limited, but they can
give you some data on view through
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:conversion or direct conversion.
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:Not as as it used to be some leading
indicators that you can look at, but
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:it's, very much a, I have to trust this
you kind of feel like you're putting
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:all your eggs in, in one basket for
like a little while until you start
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:seeing those indicators come through.
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:really when the aha moment comes is when.
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:the pipeline.
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:We can show you quarter over quarter, and
we focus on qualified pipeline or what we
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:call hero pipeline, which is standardized.
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:When we can show you your hero pipeline
increased 50 to a hundred percent
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:and you had the same budget just
deployed a different strategy, that's
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:when you're like, okay, I trust it.
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:I'm ready.
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:Like now let's go like all in on this.
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:it ta it's a, it's baby steps.
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:Any transformation is is
gonna take a little while.
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:Justin Norris: And when you talk about
running a campaign, it's totally
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:clear to me the way that, that and
Chris and refine labs create demand.
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:Like you have smart people, you
go out on LinkedIn, you post
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:interesting and provocative things.
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:People engage with it, and it, drives
the conversation, in a lot of ways.
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:And for a company that doesn't
necessarily have that, Already set up.
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:does everybody need to find like a
Chris Walker within their own company,
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:is it just about, you know, paid
LinkedIn ads that aren't gated, that
292
:are just more about exposure, like
there's a, a reductive way of looking
293
:at it, but obviously there's a more
sophisticated thought process that
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:goes into planning these strategies.
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:How do you think through them?
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:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah, most of our
clients don't have a . Huge evangelist
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:that is out there evangelizing, or a
subject matter expert that is comfortable,
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:like going very public on social and
like leaning into their personal brand.
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:I would say only probably 20 to 25% of
our clients have that have someone that's
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:like willing to kind of dabble in that.
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:I mean, half of our clients don't even
have a podcast, but we're still able
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:to execute a strategy with them that is
different and kind of gets them there.
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:It's funny more, more of our mature
customers that have been with us a while,
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:once they start seeing results, when
they start going, then they'll say, okay,
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:now we feel good about like we have this
engine going, let's, what about a podcast?
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:And we're like, okay, great.
307
:You know, , like lill air that on
as the next growth lever for you.
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:so it really comes down to.
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:you can take your existing assets
and your existing content and
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:repackage them in a different way.
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:So that's like step one, easy win.
312
:Take your customer reviews, take your
product and solutions pages and kind of
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:those types of content on your website,
and you can package them up and not
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:just say, you know, Hey, check out this
solution, click here, but actually take
315
:some of the content that's on those pages.
316
:That's the value that you actually want
people to read and repurpose that into
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:a campaign or into a campaign angle is
kind of what we call campaign strategy.
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:Don't just literally copy and paste it
and put it in an ad and expect it to
319
:work, but take that value or whatever
on your solutions page that you really
320
:wanna get across we can communicate that.
321
:In organic or in paid and
or both in a different way.
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:So I'll kind of give you an example.
323
:Most of our, we call them product
value ads and product awareness ads.
324
:And these are just light ways of talking
about, here's the problem that you might
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:be experiencing here's a way to solve it.
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:These is probably content that's already
on your website somewhere, hopefully
327
:. Hopefully it's on your website.
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:And you're communicating what
we call problem awareness.
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:Like, Hey, you might have this problem.
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:Hmm.
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:I didn't ever think about it that way.
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:But yeah, sometimes I do
have that problem, right?
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:And then the product value
add is like, Hey, here's an
334
:interesting way to solve that.
335
:And you could solve that in like,
know, X, Y, Z using this product.
336
:those, an example where you kind of.
337
:Take some content you already have, you're
going to repackage that content into like
338
:an educational and value driven way that's
slightly different than the copy on like
339
:your website and things like a unique take
on it or have a kind of a theme around it.
340
:And then you could
distribute that on social.
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:That's a very like tactical, like I don't
have any additional content resources
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:to create net new content for me.
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:So like what can we do in the meantime?
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:That's typically where we start.
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:And then from there also work with content
teams A lot of times you might have a
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:defined point of view or content strategy
that is communicated not on social.
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:or not on certain avenues.
348
:so maybe you have some really great blog
posts that point out great problems, great
349
:solutions, just great thought leadership,
but it's not articulated in a great way to
350
:repackage on social or repackage in video.
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:you can do that, at a high level, like
if we were starting from scratch with
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:someone in a content team, we would
say, great, let's document, hopefully
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:you have a defined point of view.
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:Let's look at your content strategy.
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:Then we're gonna create content that
is educational, differentiated, and
356
:valuable to your market, not necessarily
to your core buyer, but to your market.
357
:Then we're gonna distribute that content
in a buyer-centric approach, which means
358
:ungated designed for the platform that
we're going after, then you're gonna
359
:package that content in a way that's
. Unique, which is where creative comes in.
360
:The key here is then having
something to, anchor that content to.
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:So if you do have a live event series
or you do have a podcast or you do have
362
:something that can engage with that isn't,
know, request a demo or isn't, you know,
363
:sign up for my product tour, you need to
kind of have some type of thing in the
364
:middle that people can still learn from
you and engage from in a, in a nice way.
365
:Like for us, it's our podcast what
we route everybody to is our podcast.
366
:then from there it's to our live events.
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:Not to say everybody needs that,
but that's kind of an example.
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:Justin Norris: Have you ever
seen this approach not work?
369
:I know that's a a strange question,
but in, in a sense, can it work
370
:for everyone or are in some cases,
do you hit roadblocks of certain
371
:things that need to be resolved?
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:Like actually you don't have
your message worked out, kinda
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:like what we were talking about.
374
:You're not speaking the right
language, or are there other factors
375
:that might affect whether this
can be effective for a company?
376
:Sidney Waterfall: If you do not
have a basic, decent, repeatable,
377
:somewhat repeatable sales process,
I wouldn't, I wouldn't start, I
378
:wouldn't start trying to create demand.
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:cause then it's just gonna be
a little bit of a nightmare.
380
:So you need to kind of
have some sales basics.
381
:You don't need to have a huge
sales robust engine, huge flywheel
382
:with, you know, you got everything
figured out, but you need to have
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:Okay.
384
:We know how to talk to prospects.
385
:We know what they care about.
386
:We can, we can consistently like,
convert prospects from meetings
387
:into pipeline, into closed one.
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:And the reason I say that is
because you need to know what
389
:it is actually resonating with
a buyer when they are ready to
390
:convert when they are ready to buy.
391
:If you don't know how to convert a
buyer, when they're ready to buy,
392
:you're not gonna know and figure out
and be effective of creating demand.
393
:I've never seen that done.
394
:I'm sure someone will, you know, say
something or prove me wrong, I'm sure.
395
:But, like I've never seen that.
396
:Justin Norris: I really appreciate
you explaining Like the demand
397
:creation process broken down that way.
398
:I've probably listened to, I don't know,
a hundred, demand Gen live or revenue
399
:vital podcasts, like the, just the
specifics of like, how does it act?
400
:You know, the type of person I wanna
know, like how does it actually work?
401
:And that really explains a lot.
402
:I want to just shine a spotlight
for a second on the role of ops.
403
:We're speaking about go
to market more broadly.
404
:But I have kind of an ops centric here.
405
:what should that role
be within go to market?
406
:Because it varies a bit, I think
between marketing and sales ops.
407
:but we often tend to be very tech
focused or focused on territory,
408
:compensation, planning, stuff like that.
409
:What's the, evolution, if any, from
your point of view that ops teams need
410
:to make to perform at their highest
level within this type of motion?
411
:Sidney Waterfall: For the record, I just
also consider myself kind of an ops nerd,
412
:so I love talking anything Salesforce
marketing automation all the time.
413
:So I think that's honestly
why you and I just get along
414
:so well, our previous chats.
415
:So that's just for the record, but I think
ops is a very crucial and like pivotal
416
:part of a successful go-to-market team.
417
:I think without it you are . , like,
I don't even know what you're doing.
418
:However, , what I see with ops
happen I mean, it's very similar to
419
:every, any function in your Go-to
market team, you're gonna want a
420
:strategic side and you're gonna want
a creative kind of side, and you're
421
:gonna want a tactical execution side.
422
:I look at that the same way
I would look at any org.
423
:You want that in marketing,
you want that in sales, you
424
:want that in customer success.
425
:And so I think that is how I would say
like the best operations or whatever
426
:you wanna call operations teams these
days, I, I think that's how they operate.
427
:So strategic to kind of execution.
428
:What I have seen, and I think it's
no fault of operations, I just think
429
:it's the mindset of, well that is a
very tactical, analytical function.
430
:Like maybe it's a less strategic function.
431
:I'm like, absolutely not . I'm like,
if ops is a strategic function in
432
:your org, you are going to like
a powerhouse org, in my opinion.
433
:And I, I see that from like orgs
that operate at a very high level.
434
:So I think they, sometimes fall down
and there's a lack of understanding
435
:from operations team of just like
the overall customer journey how
436
:like sales and marketing and success
really fit together as a function.
437
:And this is something I've learned
as a marketer in my department, is
438
:in order for me to be successful at a
strategic level, I need to understand.
439
:How sales works.
440
:I don't need to execute sales, but I like
really need to understand how sales works.
441
:I need to be involved and understand
that function and understand
442
:their pains and their needs.
443
:And the same thing with ops.
444
:I think that's why I love ops is I
sometimes will do ops, like I run our
445
:whole HubSpot and Salesforce and things
like that I love jumping in and helping
446
:clients with like ops specific things.
447
:So I have some execution in ops, but
that doesn't mean you need it, but you
448
:really need to understand their role,
their value, what their day-to-Day is,
449
:and like the overall function and how
it fits into the rest of the business.
450
:And I think that's honestly the
same if you wanna be a leader
451
:in any org that you're in.
452
:and so that's kind of where I see ops
not like pushing the boundaries of
453
:I'll just give you a quick example.
454
:understand marketing tech,
understand how it all works.
455
:can do anything in analytics, pull
any report for you, but they're not,
456
:actually giving you insights about the
report or what the data means, or what
457
:you should do with the data, right?
458
:Like, that's like the step up.
459
:and this is not a generalization.
460
:I, I'm not like trying to
like make anybody mad here.
461
:This is just what I've seen.
462
:But the people that understand, ah,
that's how a marketing campaign works
463
:and I understand how those channels
work and I understand how customers
464
:would interact with those channels,
then they also understand the data
465
:and they're proactively giving
insights to the CMO or to whoever.
466
:I'm like, that is the value
of the strategic ops person.
467
:Justin Norris: agree.
468
:the light bulb moment for me,
yes, my team is here, we are
469
:in service of, revenue teams.
470
:We're helping them, we're enabling them.
471
:But you can't perceive yourself
as separate from that and
472
:not having accountability.
473
:that.
474
:You really do need to perceive yourself
as a revenue leader in your own right.
475
:you affect and help that
revenue, you know, come into
476
:being is a little bit different.
477
:You're not selling directly or,
or marketing directly per se, but
478
:you're still there drive strategy,
helping challenge what's happening.
479
:And I think that mindset shift really
elevating for operations teams.
480
:Sidney Waterfall: I would agree.
481
:I think the, the dynamic duos that I've
worked with or seen is . The marketing
482
:leader and like the head of rev ops, who
is very strategic or whoever it does,
483
:titles, whatever, it doesn't matter.
484
:. it's interesting 'cause I'm
seeing a lot more titles and
485
:job descriptions around that.
486
:Like, to market strategist or Go-to market
strategy and analyst and you know, or
487
:rev ops, like strategists and analysts.
488
:And I'm like, oh, like I think
it's going in the right direction.
489
:But I think that would be my advice
to anyone, not just operations people.
490
:This is not like picking on ops at all.
491
:I think anyone that's trying to
get to a strategic level in any
492
:org, you need to understand how the
other orgs fit in and you need to
493
:elevate like all of them together.
494
:Like when I look back at my career
and you how, you get from A to B?
495
:I was like.
496
:I just started going outside of my
lane and trying to figure out like,
497
:Hey, this, SDR conversion was awful.
498
:Why?
499
:How can I fix that?
500
:Like, what was it an issue in
their system like, or is it
501
:something marketing is doing?
502
:Is it something I could improve?
503
:Is it something like I could work
with our Salesforce admin to improve?
504
:So I would you know, just kind of take
that mindset of like, Hmm, well let
505
:me go talk to the marketer who's like
responsible for these campaigns that
506
:I don't think are doing very well.
507
:Or maybe they're doing great, or
maybe you don't know if they're doing
508
:great or not, but you should have
that conversation like, well, what
509
:do you think about these results?
510
:Are these good results to you?
511
:Or why or why not?
512
:Kind of educate each other on
that, I think is a good like
513
:tactical tip that anyone can take.
514
:Justin Norris: So you gave me a good
pivot point there to talk about and
515
:attribution, which is a huge topic.
516
:I know that labs is a particular point
of view on this, I want to talk through,
517
:then I also want to even just talk
through, you know, everyone has their
518
:own taxonomy and, and terminology around
channel and source and things like that.
519
:So just curious, if you were to come
in, you know, set up a, a Salesforce
520
:or a HubSpot or whatever from scratch,
would you instrument it to track the
521
:things that you think are important to
measure this type of go-to-market motion?
522
:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah,
this is a great question.
523
:I feel like we could do a whole podcast
on just this, to be honest with you.
524
:yeah, if I were to come in and set
something up from scratch, I will kind
525
:of give you an overview of how I might
look at that and how I might do that.
526
:So, your marketing automation system
is, depending on what you use,
527
:is gonna track something, but you
need to understand what that is.
528
:HubSpot, the way that they track original
source is very different than like
529
:Marketo the first thing that I would make
sure, I'm just gonna go from the top of
530
:the funnel down and not necessarily I
would do it in this order because the
531
:first things first is I was always,
would actually probably fix current
532
:sales that are happening in Salesforce
533
:but I would make sure that we
have, standardized UTMs and we're
534
:actually . talking about UTMs in
the same way as an organization.
535
:So source medium, campaign term, and
defining and having those values set as
536
:like, are the values we use for source,
these are the values we use for medium.
537
:a big proponent of,
session-based, UTMs specifically.
538
:So being able to not only track the
UTM that got you to the site, making
539
:sure that we have cookie tracking set
up to track, you know, first touch
540
:and also session-based UTMs so that
when someone does convert on a form
541
:or when they do become known, I can
know what UTMs drove the session that
542
:resulted in that known conversion.
543
:a lot of times that's a huge thing
in that I see is they're tracking
544
:etms, but it's not associated with the
actual session that they became known.
545
:It's like the very first touch
that they ever came to the site.
546
:are important.
547
:Justin Norris: you maintaining,
sorry to jump in, but are you
548
:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
549
:Justin Norris: a parallel set
of fields like first touch and
550
:most recent, or first touch and,
551
:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
552
:First touch and last.
553
:Justin Norris: like that?
554
:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah.
555
:Justin Norris: Yeah.
556
:Okay.
557
:Sidney Waterfall: So you'll notice
that first, last and conversion
558
:are gonna be common themes through
all these different data points.
559
:and this is not like.
560
:, you could do multi-touch.
561
:This is like outside of any
attribution opinions you may have.
562
:This is just like
straight funnel tracking.
563
:I think that you should
have . so same thing, UTMs.
564
:You got first touch, we say conversion
touch, which is like the session that
565
:actually drove the conversion, if you have
it or if you know, where was the refer?
566
:Was it organic direct
referral or UTM based, right?
567
:And so that's gonna tell
you a lot of information.
568
:And then we go to the next phase,
which refer to as a conversion.
569
:A conversion is anytime your
sales team is working something.
570
:So the reason we say that is MQL is
really thinks about is that's only
571
:when marketing sends leads to sales.
572
:I actually wanna track.
573
:A conversion.
574
:Anytime sales is working on something,
whether they're going outbound, whether
575
:they're getting a referral from a
partner, whether they, you know, got
576
:a sales sourced dmm, like I don't
care what it is, I don't care if it's
577
:marketing, if it's not marketing,
if I don't care where it came from.
578
:I wanna know like, how many conversions
is the sales team working and what
579
:is the outcome of those conversions.
580
:so that's why we kind of go a
little bit past MQL, but MQL is the
581
:thing that's known most to people
of like, okay, that's what I need
582
:to track this stage, from there.
583
:So that's what we call like conversion.
584
:You can have multiple conversions
per, just like you have multiple
585
:M qls per person or per account.
586
:They're kind of, you know, they
can come back in the cycle.
587
:They can go out of the
buying cycle, come back in.
588
:and then from there, . I want to track
meeting booked, meeting, sat meeting, you
589
:know, deferred or something like that.
590
:No-show, all those things.
591
:I wanna track that funnel stage
in the sub stages of that.
592
:And then I'm gonna, probably gonna
track like what, depending on your sales
593
:cycle, but what happens next normally
is opportunity create sometimes the
594
:opportunity after the meeting, after
sales accepts it, whatever that is in
595
:your sales process, whatever occurs,
I would say at least generate an
596
:opportunity at that point, if not before.
597
:And then the sub stages of
those within the opportunity.
598
:I'm also going to stand up what,
uh, we call as a high intent revenue
599
:opportunity, which is kind of one of
our branded terms, hero for short.
600
:And basically what that does is it looks
at all of your opportunities from all
601
:sources, and it's going to look by source.
602
:what is my opportunity stage that
converts at 25% higher win rate.
603
:The reason we do that is just 'cause
not all leads are created equal.
604
:Not all pipeline is created equal.
605
:So an outbound sourced opportunity might
convert different than a product based
606
:opportunity or a website declared intent.
607
:And it's not surprising that they
convert differently in the funnel.
608
:And then I'm gonna track closed one.
609
:The layer on top of that, those,
that's kind of the core funnel stages.
610
:The layer on top of that is,
I wanna know, the source.
611
:So like, where did the buyer, when
I say source, I'm talking about
612
:where did the buyer come from?
613
:A lot of people will initially think
campaign, oh, you wanna think campaign?
614
:Campaign is.
615
:detailed of that.
616
:But I wanna think, how I explain
it to some people is like, the
617
:offer, what did the buyer do?
618
:Not what we did, but what
did the buyer interact with?
619
:Did they interact with a webinar?
620
:Did they interact with sales?
621
:Did they interact with an event?
622
:Did they interact on our website at
a chat bot or a demo or a contact
623
:us or did they interact with just
signing up for our newsletter?
624
:So it's more of like what
the buyer engaged with.
625
:That's what I wanna know.
626
:Justin Norris: you're, when you're
talking source, you're thinking
627
:about the term that I would
usually use for this is offer,
628
:Sidney Waterfall: offer.
629
:Yes,
630
:Justin Norris: with
631
:Sidney Waterfall: yes.
632
:Justin Norris: de, the destination.
633
:Okay.
634
:Sidney Waterfall: Yeah.
635
:The destination that they engaged with.
636
:And I look at that actually
first before channel.
637
:I wanna know what they did first,
and then the second question is, I
638
:wanna know where did that come from?
639
:I don't wanna know where did they
come from and then what they did.
640
:Yeah, typically, depending on the
question I'm trying to answer,
641
:but generally that's how I'm gonna
look at a funnel, what did they do?
642
:And then you'll dig into where did
they come from and, you know, what
643
:TMS were associated to it and what
self-reported distribution was
644
:associated to it, if applicable.
645
:then kind of drill into those
different campaign layers, UTM
646
:layers, data layers underneath that.
647
:Justin Norris: because what they did is
typically more predictive of outcomes
648
:Sidney Waterfall: yes.
649
:Justin Norris: where they came from.
650
:Sidney Waterfall: That,
651
:Justin Norris: I've,
652
:Sidney Waterfall: that's what we've seen
consistently across multiple data sets.
653
:a more consistent predictor of what
their, conversion is going to be in the
654
:funnel and then where that they came from.
655
:Can also give you a little Oh,
I think that contact us from
656
:Organic or direct is probably gonna
have a higher conversion rate than that.
657
:Contact us from, I don't
know, this review site.
658
:Why?
659
:Well, you know, we've got historical
data to show that, but also if you
660
:think about it logically, someone's
coming directly to you to convert
661
:versus they're on a review site.
662
:They probably converted on CTAs
for four different companies.
663
:Justin Norris: And for campaign that's
still at the offer level, like, the, the
664
:source or offer and the campaign exists
in a sort of parent-child relationship.
665
:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
666
:Justin Norris: there a similar,
similar thing on the channel side,
667
:or do you just call it sub-channel?
668
:How do you define
669
:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
670
:Uh,
671
:Justin Norris: have a paid, paid
search and then AdWords and Bing and
672
:whatever else underneath that category?
673
:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
674
:category and then we use category
group, but it's like channel
675
:sub-channel category, subcategory.
676
:So, the roll up fields are just easier
for reporting and I would say board or
677
:executive or QBR type . data versus,
so you'll say, you know, paid social
678
:and then you have all your paid social,
Facebook, Instagram, meta, you know,
679
:LinkedIn, TikTok, I don't know, Reddit,
whatever you're doing on paid social.
680
:Then you're gonna have, you
can have organic social and
681
:then you have your channels.
682
:can break into that way as well.
683
:Justin Norris: Now implicit in
what you just described is of a
684
:different, funnel structure than
what I think many of us are used to.
685
:I think in, in B two B for a long time,
we have, you know, lead M-Q-L-S-Q-L,
686
:you know, that waterfall, that serious
decisions waterfall in various stages of
687
:complexity just drilled into our brain.
688
:Our view of reality is wired that way.
689
:And this is one of the things we
were chatting about a bit by email
690
:to this recording, you know, Chris
has talked about in one of his
691
:podcasts how this kind of creates an
operating system for a company like
692
:Almost without you realizing it.
693
:It just becomes an implicit way
of structuring budget and KPIs
694
:and how you report to your board.
695
:So everything's wired that way.
696
:And you, are working on a
different sort of model.
697
:just to expand on that a little
bit, how is it different?
698
:Why?
699
:'cause you could kind of say, say, well
we have conversions and we have, it's
700
:maybe just a different word for mql, but I
think you mean something deeper than that.
701
:So I just wanna understand
it a bit better.
702
:Sidney Waterfall: definitely.
703
:So I would just wanna double tap on
that point of the demand waterfall is
704
:very much ingrained I think about how
I set up everything, how you report on
705
:everything, what actions you do, whether,
you know, you kind of realize it or not.
706
:Like if you take a step back and
you're like, oh yeah, like , if
707
:you actually think about it.
708
:and why we're seeing this funnel being
questioned in the marketplace and
709
:being pressure tested is because it's
a scalability game with that funnel
710
:and it's a very assembly line approach.
711
:And as we're seeing in the market,
. teams are kind of breaking down silos.
712
:They're going into more of a revenue based
team where maybe they're not comped on,
713
:individual department things, but they're,
Hey, we wanna have marketing and all these
714
:people comped on this one main metric.
715
:And then maybe you have sub metrics
based on your role or things like that.
716
:But especially if you see at the executive
level or leadership level, you also have
717
:this concept of, you know, ABM and kind
of moving to an all bound approach where,
718
:you know, the buyer journey is not linear.
719
:They're gonna come and interact
with multiple things and they're
720
:gonna come in market and outta
market at different times.
721
:So like, how do you track that?
722
:And that model kind of forces
you to track it in a certain way.
723
:So give you some examples.
724
:So.
725
:. I would say one, it's a singular and
blended funnel and I think that's
726
:the biggest thing that we're seeing.
727
:And companies are kind of themselves
trying to like break it apart and
728
:break it into sub funnels or sub
stages or sub things in between
729
:to track different outcomes.
730
:And when you blend everything
together, you don't forecast as
731
:accurately as you probably could.
732
:You don't spot insights and things that
are going well and or not going well fast.
733
:And so those are two big things.
734
:And I would say the last, I mean I
could go on and on, but the three
735
:biggest things is, those two that I
just mentioned, and I think the, it's
736
:built around internal departments
versus what the customer is doing and
737
:how the customer is engaging with you.
738
:I think that's core.
739
:I think philosophical and
mindset differences of the model
740
:that we're kind of working on.
741
:and Sure, on paper every funnel
is gonna like, look like a funnel.
742
:Step one, step two, step
three, step four, right.
743
:. Sure.
744
:But, when we actually break
down the model, there's a
745
:couple things that we are doing.
746
:We're expanding it to look at
the entire go to market funnel.
747
:Not just marketing and sales, but
really what the buyer is doing.
748
:So there's a couple key innovations I'm
gonna start at the bottom of the funnel.
749
:The concept of pipeline sources.
750
:Again, this is what is the buyer
interact with at the time when they
751
:were ready to convert and talk to
sales, not what department did what
752
:because sales can drive a website
conversion just as much as marketing can.
753
:Actually, some of the top reps
are probably really great at that.
754
:, or sales can get a declared intent
conversion in their LinkedIn dms or
755
:through a referral through their network.
756
:They're still getting hand raisers.
757
:They're just getting it in a
different way, and the buyer is
758
:converting in a different way.
759
:Same thing with events.
760
:so it's really kind of like all of these
things are working together, so let's
761
:remove the internal politics out of it
and just focus on what the buyer did.
762
:did the buyer do at the time
of opportunity or conversion?
763
:And so pipeline sources and splitting
that out is a key differentiator, and
764
:you kind of have funnels underneath that.
765
:Then you have your normal opportunity
stages and you're gonna go through your
766
:sales process that's particular to the
sales org underneath those, within that.
767
:. When we say pipeline, we are
gonna talk about hero pipeline.
768
:So we're standardizing pipeline,
just like I mentioned, based
769
:on your own historical data.
770
:Factual, not subjective definition.
771
:that is going to be standardized
based on the win rates.
772
:What stage do you reach?
773
:25% win rate.
774
:Maybe that's stage three,
just making this up.
775
:And then events, maybe it's stage
four, maybe outbound, it's also
776
:stage four, maybe partner and your
partner affiliates and referrals.
777
:Maybe it's stage three, two,
maybe it's higher in the funnel.
778
:But then when you say, here's what
pipeline we have, it's standardizing that.
779
:So removing subjectivity from some
of the definitions as much as.
780
:Possible.
781
:so pipeline sources are standardized
and so is the definition of pipeline
782
:underneath the pipeline sources.
783
:The key is you have to separate things
out in order to standardize them.
784
:you kind of go up the funnel,
which is the idea of a conversion,
785
:not a marketing qualified lead
and then a sales accepted lead.
786
:It's a revenue conversion.
787
:It's not what marketing got
someone to do something.
788
:It's anytime sales is actively spending
effort on something, a revenue conversion.
789
:And then of those conversions, how
many make it to the next step, right?
790
:So we're looking at it like, across all go
to markets there versus that traditional
791
:assembly line, which is . Marketing did
something, then sales is gonna review
792
:it, then sales is gonna accept it.
793
:And so now we have these
different funnel stages.
794
:It's kind of one revenue focus there.
795
:Justin Norris: there's a challenge
here, which I find is common to
796
:all account-based funnels where,
you have people with potentially
797
:multiple conversions, and then
798
:Sidney Waterfall: yep.
799
:Justin Norris: in, you know,
all gets kind of narrowed down
800
:into a single opportunity.
801
:How do you calculate those metrics in a
standardized way that they're meaningful?
802
:Sidney Waterfall: Yes.
803
:That's a great question.
804
:So there's two different
ways to look at this.
805
:So I'll talk about how we look at it
in the model and how we like would set
806
:it up for someone in a model versus
how you might look at, me, a different
807
:question to answer, which is how was our
account total buyer journey look like?
808
:You know?
809
:so you have to draw a line
in the sand somewhere.
810
:that's with anything, you're
going to have to do that.
811
:So what we look at is the originating
contact on the opportunity.
812
:and then we kind of look at that
and look at that conversion.
813
:So, you know, some will say, well,
it's not the, the originating contact.
814
:And then they became, you know, not the
primary contact and then we added four
815
:other contacts and they weren't the
actual decision maker and yada yada yada.
816
:We know that there's group buying
going on, but really what we're
817
:trying to track is what sparked that
conversion and resulted in a sales
818
:conversation, and then what was the
result of that conversation to revenue.
819
:That's really as simple as it gets.
820
:So we draw a line in the sand and say,
originating contact on the opportunity.
821
:However, you can look at the.
822
:Opportunity level or even the account
level and look back and see, hey, here's
823
:like the conversions that occurred
and the order that they occurred in
824
:not exactly how the campaign object
works in in Salesforce, but similar
825
:like you'd be able to see that.
826
:So when we report on it, you can
see unique conversions unique.
827
:And then you could also see
like total like unique accounts
828
:from those conversions would
be a way to look at that.
829
:Justin Norris: So, just to take
a concrete example, uh, Acme is
830
:a target account of my company.
831
:And we may have had seven
conversions of Acme, of which,
832
:three of them were inbound leads.
833
:two downloaded an ebook, one a demo,
and then we were also a multithreading
834
:and going outbound against four people.
835
:one of the outbound people actually
ended up responding and being the
836
:one that created the opportunity.
837
:So of those seven conversions, they
kind of, distilled down to this one,
838
:opportunity that was created and
that that person would become the
839
:originating contact on the opportunity.
840
:Am I
841
:Sidney Waterfall: mm-Hmm.
842
:, yes.
843
:Yeah, and you can, I mean, I'm getting
kind of like technical and in the
844
:weeds, but , I tend to do that sometimes
. you can, like, we have a Salesforce
845
:managed package that does this, that
we've set up, and so you can actually.
846
:Look at the, depending on your sales
cycle, if you wanna look at a conversion
847
:window, like, all right, we're gonna
look back at the originating contact
848
:and we're gonna look back 45 days
or 14 days, whatever that may be,
849
:and we're gonna take the last one,
even if they have two, for example.
850
:So there is an element of where
that is going to be unique
851
:to the business, depending on
your sales cycle length really.
852
:but then the problem that this model
is trying to solve understanding
853
:what drove sales conversions and the
outcome of those sales conversions.
854
:We're still very much also still trying
to solve the problem of like, how do you
855
:effectively measure, create demand, which
I'm still, that's a gigantic problem.
856
:We're still trying to solve , but
that's biggest problem with That
857
:we're solving with this model.
858
:'cause that's what people
cannot answer right now with
859
:the models that they're using.
860
:And then a secondary problem, which
I think a lot of people try to
861
:answer with funnel, I don't think you
should be answering with your funnel
862
:model, is, well, what's going on
with everybody in the buying cycle?
863
:And what is the account journey and the
account, buying cycle journey look like?
864
:To me, that's a completely
fundamental different question.
865
:And I would probably use
fundamentally different data
866
:set to answer that question.
867
:Then what you should be using as your
operating framework and operating model.
868
:I think that's a, at least that's how
I try to distinguish it in my mind when
869
:people start, 'cause then they build
funnels around a buyer journey you're
870
:in the influence model and you have
no idea what's working and what's not.
871
:Justin Norris: that touches on the
question I was gonna ask because when
872
:we, the definition of sales conversion
or of conversion really is, based on the
873
:activity of a sales team, which kind of
gets a little bit into like lead scoring
874
:or MQL threshold or the extent to which
when, sorts of actions are a salesperson.
875
:And some companies are very permissive
and sales, you know, if you download an
876
:ebook, sales is gonna call you versus
others are much more restrictive.
877
:and you say, you know, I'm only gonna,
sales is only gonna reach out to
878
:people that meet a certain threshold.
879
:So all the things, I could go on an ebook,
downloading spree, you know, on somebody's
880
:website and maybe I still don't reach a
threshold for sales to reach out to me.
881
:Those things don't count as
conversions within this funnel model.
882
:They're still part of the
account buying journey.
883
:Like you said, that's a different
884
:Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
885
:You can still track them in campaigns.
886
:You can still track
the campaign influence.
887
:You could still, Add them to
nurture flows, you could still
888
:score them like That's totally fine.
889
:And every organization is going
to approach that differently.
890
:whenever, and I think it actually, if
you take this approach and you actually
891
:start tracking, like time sales starts
working something and you look back and
892
:you say, okay, what, what drove that?
893
:Was it an MQL threshold trigger?
894
:Great.
895
:We're gonna put that in
pipeline source, low intent.
896
:And then you can tag that as a
program, as lead score, for example.
897
:And we, we kinda help, or you know, we can
say, oh, this was a low intent webinar.
898
:Follow up, whatever
the, you know, thing is.
899
:And then you'd be able to see whenever
sales does this, is this effective or not?
900
:Is it worth our resources or not?
901
:Compared to sales.
902
:Outbound or sales warm list outbound
or sales attending an event and getting
903
:contacts and meetings booked from people.
904
:So it's not, again, it's not
like marketing against sales.
905
:It's like, let's just look at all of
the activities our sales team is doing.
906
:Where are they coming from?
907
:From a buyer point of view, what did the
buyer last do to have sales reached out?
908
:Which to your point, you know,
organizations are gonna have sales
909
:reach out at a bunch of different
times in that life cycle, depending
910
:on their own specific thresholds.
911
:But if you track it the same way,
you track everything else in one
912
:kind of standardized funnel, it
becomes very clear to see what is
913
:working and is what what isn't.
914
:Justin Norris: How was a
light bulb moment for me?
915
:Actually, how you just described
that, because you said, you could
916
:have 500 conversions and maybe 475
of them are webinar follow ups,
917
:Sidney Waterfall: yep, exactly.
918
:Justin Norris: 25 that were people.
919
:a demo request and you know, maybe half
the demo requests result in an opportunity
920
:and maybe two of the 475 webinar.
921
:And so you can say, it doesn't
mean that webinars aren't
922
:important, but is that a good time?
923
:It
924
:Sidney Waterfall: is that a conversion?
925
:Yeah.
926
:Justin Norris: you consider that
a conversion makes you question
927
:Sidney Waterfall: yes.
928
:Justin Norris: Makes a ton of
929
:Sidney Waterfall: and then, you
know, maybe we go create demand with
930
:that webinar content and get buyers
into a different stage instead.
931
:And you can still run scoring
on all your known leads.
932
:This is not saying, you know, don't
do lead scoring and don't gain
933
:any content the rest of your life.
934
:Like, people are gonna do what they want
to do when they want to do it, in an
935
:organization it, but it's just a mechanism
for like, being able to track it a little
936
:bit better and like a more standardized
way across the revenue system, that's
937
:more focused on the buyer and not what
team sourced it and what team gets credit.
938
:Justin Norris: interesting how
much of this discussion gets wired
939
:around, validation of like credit
and what's working and what's not.
940
:Which I actually think is very difficult
to tell because even if you see, hey,
941
:we had a hundred webinar touchpoints and
these opportunities doesn't necessarily
942
:prove anything kinda scientifically about
whether there's any causation there.
943
:So when you alluded to how you would look
at the account journey, what seems to you?
944
:'cause I'm, how, how would you
take that kind of massive date
945
:of all these things that happen?
946
:What would you wanna look at to gain
actionable insight that would maybe
947
:drive difference marketing behaviors.
948
:Sidney Waterfall: When I think about
account journey or like, you know,
949
:all the different touch points or
even campaign understanding all of the
950
:campaign data throughout an account
or even a, a singular opportunity, to
951
:me, I'm un trying to understand and
find patterns of what is more common
952
:and less common at certain personas
certain levels of the organization
953
:and certain times of the buying cycle.
954
:That's what I look at, like . Account
journey mapping, buyer journey
955
:mapping for, and then I'm going to
use that to go optimize my in channel
956
:strategy and possibly investments,
but more on the strategy side.
957
:That's really what I use that data set
for versus funnel data to me should be
958
:very black and white of like, this is what
happened, this is what occurred, this was
959
:the outcome of that, and let's learn what
we can and we're gonna monitor conversion
960
:rates and we're gonna be really strict
about conversion rates and we're gonna
961
:be really on top of SLAs and we're gonna
be, you know, I don't know, I'm more,
962
:more strict and like watch that type of
data, like a that's like what's actually
963
:like happening in the funnel, driving
revenue versus the other data set, which
964
:we step back like at all data points.
965
:That's when I think it's about pattern
recognition, understanding like,
966
:okay, this . Webinars work really
well here, but what topics of these,
967
:what topics actually work really
well in this stage of the journey?
968
:Okay, let's take that topic and like
put it on some other medium than a
969
:webinar and, and serve it up to those
people when we think that they're
970
:at that, stage of their journey.
971
:Also, this is a side tangent, but I think
people spend a lot, like too much time
972
:trying to, like, especially when you
kinda take a more demand gen approach,
973
:you don't know you, you know, buyers
aren't known for a long time and so
974
:you don't know what stage of their, you
know, beautiful journey that they're
975
:on that you're gonna get a journey
map for when they're done with it.
976
:You have no idea.
977
:So really, instead of just trying
to like over-engineer it and
978
:create like funnels, like first
they see that, then they see this.
979
:I take the approach of, you would
have some funnel structure, sure.
980
:But I would also challenge you to say,
I'm gonna serve up content to these
981
:people at a bunch of different times and
understand like when they react to it,
982
:because the buying journey's not linear.
983
:And they're gonna go from like, I
care about this problem one week to I
984
:could care less about this problem the
next week 'cause it's not my priority.
985
:And three weeks later they're
gonna really care about that
986
:priority 'cause they have a pain.
987
:So that's just my rant.
988
:Justin Norris: I bumped up against
this mindset all the time when I was
989
:in consulting, and people seem to
have this for, I want this formula
990
:for what a buying journey looks like.
991
:Somehow there's this archetypal
buying journey that I
992
:Sidney Waterfall: yes.
993
:Justin Norris: and if I discover it, I
can somehow put people down it, which
994
:will then cause them to Become buyers.
995
:seemed to fundamentally
misunderstand the nature of
996
:buying and, and human psychology.
997
:But even when I actually tried
to deliver projects with data
998
:scientists and do these things, it
never was actually very satisfying.
999
:People looked at it like, oh, actually,
you know, it, it is kinda this like
:
00:54:17,730 --> 00:54:23,647
deflating we came to a similar conclusion
it's less about, guess, webinars or
:
00:54:23,667 --> 00:54:26,847
eBooks or, but it's actually a lot more
about the topics and the messages and the
:
00:54:26,967 --> 00:54:27,257
Sidney Waterfall: yeah.
:
00:54:28,117 --> 00:54:30,087
Justin Norris: That seems to be
the important insight that you can
:
00:54:30,247 --> 00:54:34,127
actually use and back into your
marketing to do better things.
:
00:54:34,467 --> 00:54:34,753
Sidney Waterfall: Yeah.
:
00:54:34,833 --> 00:54:40,260
I think the best that I see
execute, really focus on like
:
00:54:40,930 --> 00:54:46,250
messaging pillars and content
pillars and when to talk about what.
:
00:54:46,807 --> 00:54:50,227
and then they go into like, you know,
distribution and things like that.
:
00:54:50,227 --> 00:54:55,187
They're more looking at patterns
for topics and pain points and
:
00:54:55,327 --> 00:54:58,990
use cases because it's impossible
to predict where someone is.
:
00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:00,430
They might really care.
:
00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:04,910
ACMO or whoever you're going after
might really care about that problem
:
00:55:05,050 --> 00:55:09,470
one day, but the next day something
else is on fire and they don't care
:
00:55:09,470 --> 00:55:10,670
about that till the next month.
:
00:55:10,758 --> 00:55:11,033
Right.
:
00:55:11,185 --> 00:55:15,097
But you still wanna be educating
them , so it's kind of a toss up
:
00:55:15,681 --> 00:55:18,891
Justin Norris: we close, I wanna give a
shout out to, two Refine Labs products
:
00:55:18,891 --> 00:55:20,131
that I know you're very involved in.
:
00:55:20,131 --> 00:55:22,811
You alluded to your managed
package, Watchtower,
:
00:55:22,811 --> 00:55:23,708
You've demoed that to me.
:
00:55:23,861 --> 00:55:26,925
tracks the funnel as well
as the attribution it.
:
00:55:27,221 --> 00:55:29,941
cool, I think a really interesting
product to look at for people that
:
00:55:29,941 --> 00:55:33,475
are interested in implementing this
and kind of getting a, a quick leg up
:
00:55:33,495 --> 00:55:36,875
to get to a solid state much faster
than if they had to build it themself.
:
00:55:37,105 --> 00:55:39,475
There's also the vault, which I
know you're very much involved in,
:
00:55:39,718 --> 00:55:43,238
has all the refine labs, playbooks,
frameworks, experiment, reports.
:
00:55:43,918 --> 00:55:46,398
have an account, I think I've
had an account since day one, and
:
00:55:46,588 --> 00:55:47,398
I've read through a lot of it.
:
00:55:47,398 --> 00:55:50,871
Really, really valuable stuff that
I think will again, just accelerate
:
00:55:50,871 --> 00:55:53,111
your learning, you're interested
in diving deeper into these things.
:
00:55:53,331 --> 00:55:56,405
So on over to, uh, the Refine Labs
website to take a look at that.
:
00:55:56,745 --> 00:56:00,165
Sydney, this was super informative,
everything I hoped it would be.
:
00:56:00,225 --> 00:56:02,925
I'm really glad that we could sit
down and, uh, and go through this
:
00:56:03,415 --> 00:56:03,635
Sidney Waterfall: Yes.
:
00:56:03,765 --> 00:56:05,365
Justin Norris: I would love to
chat again about it at some point.
:
00:56:05,758 --> 00:56:05,978
Sidney Waterfall: Yes.
:
00:56:05,978 --> 00:56:06,978
Thank you for having me on.
:
00:56:07,138 --> 00:56:11,622
I love when podcasts we get a little
like in the weeds and we kind of
:
00:56:11,622 --> 00:56:15,152
get to talk about like . You know,
pull the curtain back a little.
:
00:56:15,550 --> 00:56:16,226
it's refreshing.
:
00:56:16,246 --> 00:56:19,359
So thank you for having me on and
asking me these great questions.