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Ukrainian Integral Perspectives on the Ongoing Invasion of Ukraine with Kateryna Yasko & Vytautas Bučiūnas
Episode 1610th March 2022 • Deep Transformation • Deep Transformation Podcast
00:00:00 01:25:40

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Ep. 16 | Kateryna Yasko and Vytautas Bučiūnas crossed the border into Lithuania three days before this conversation took place, after a five-day exodus from Kyiv, following the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. This conversation is a call for action and support of the incredibly brave Ukrainian people, and illuminates their willingness to fight to the death to throw out the invaders who are there to crush their freedom and make Ukraine a colony of Putin’s Russia. This is an informative, inspirational, and heartbreaking dialogue with two exceptionally insightful Integral leaders from the Ukraine—about propaganda and myth-making in our post-truth world, about integrating power, force, and love, about a new worldwide unity, and how the Integral perspective might pave the way towards world peace. Recorded March 5, 2022.

“One nation has opened the hearts of the whole world. What kind of conversations should we have now to foster this care and compassion, and move it in a constructive direction?”

Topics & Time Stamps

  • Witnessing the beginning of this phase of Putin’s aggression: the Revolution of Dignity and the Annexation of Crimea in 2013 and 2014 (04:29)
  • The Russian propaganda machine: painting Ukraine as a fascist country of Nazis (06:32)
  • Putin’s masterful creation of a myth in this post-truth world (10:05)
  • This is a fight for truth (17:40)
  • Is there anything good about Putin? (23:51)
  • Kateryna & Vytautas’ experience: the beginning of the invasion and the exodus to Lithuania (26:31)
  • Sirens and bomb shelters are becoming routine; fear has turned to anger (39:55)
  • Europe is united, NATO is united, Ukraine is united (42:15)
  • How this invasion has reinforced Second Tier consciousness in the West (44:49)
  • How long can Ukraine hold out? Are the sanctions enough? What about a Russian oil embargo? (46:58)
  • What can Western countries do, what are they not doing, and why sanctions are so useful (50:58)
  • Russian oligarchs and Putin in his bunker (54:50)
  • Do we need to allow Putin to save face or just fight to the bitter end? (58:21)
  • Denazification, demilitarization…dePutinification and other parallels (01:01:41)
  • Putin’s narrative and the Russian Orthodox Church (01:03:01)
  • Europa = Gayropa, Putin has assumed the role of protector of traditional values (1:06:18)
  • How can we use the Integral metaperspective to heal what’s happening? (1:10:43)
  • Why what Ukraine is doing is so inspiring: fighting out of love, not fear (01:12:05)
  • Ukraine and others’ “showing up” is very Second Tier (01:13:06)
  • One nation has opened the hearts of the whole world. How shall we integrate this and foster the care and compassion to steer it in a constructive direction? (01:14:18)
  • Integrating power and love: facing our need to engage power with force (01:15:30)
  • A new focus on World Peace from a Second Tier perspective (01:19:21)
  • Glory to Ukraine, glory to heroes (01:22:15)

Resources & References

How can I help? List of resources curated by


Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos

Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell


Kateryna Yasko (Ukraine) is an organizational psychologist, a trainer for the development of emotional intelligence, trust, cooperation, effective communication, and peaceful conflict resolution, and co-founder of the consulting company U-Integral. Her academic background is in the area of international relations and law (MSc), business (MBA), and psychology (MSc). She bases her programs on the principles of Ken Wilber’s Integral approach and Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication, and is certified in Spiral Dynamics Integral and in Susanne Cook-Greuter’s Maturity Assessment Profile. Kateryna is also head of the public association "International Institute for Integral Development" and a founder of the educational initiative EMPATIA.PRO, specializing in bringing  holistic approaches into educational leadership and learning cultures. 

Vytautas Bučiūnas (Lithuania–Ukraine) is a co-founder and managing partner of U-Integral, an integral leadership development company. Vytautas also has vast experience as a top manager in the banking sector including working as the Head of Resident Office, Senior Banker, Associate Director at the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (Russia, Ukraine). Vytautas' professional profile includes building organizational units from scratch, carrying out large-scale transformations, and managing crises. Vytautas is a certified Integral Master Coach™ (Integral Coaching Canada), an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC)™, and the only business consultant in Ukraine certified in Leadership Maturity Framework – Maturity Assessment for Professionals (LMF-MAP) and Global Leadership Profile (GLP). Vytautas explores the development of human consciousness and complex social systemsfrom a holistic perspective. He considers the growth of a critical mass of mature leaders with systemic thinking and transformational capabilities to be the key to society's healthy development.