In this episode, with special guests Rob Moore (CEO of Sentinels) and Riley Jamison (VP of Marketing and Creative Lead at Sentinels), we discuss how Sentinels has emerged as one of the premier esports organizations in the world, Kyle “Bugha” Giersdorf’s rise to fame after winning the Fortnite World Cup, Sentinels fielding one of the few successful VALORANT teams to come out of North America, how the company creates drama to bolster its marketing efforts, and so much more!

Welcome to the business of esports podcast, the official podcast of esports. We

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From the keyboard to the boardroom. This is the business of esports podcast. I am Paul

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Paul, I'm doing great. I hope everyone listening is having a good week as well.

You know, if you're if you're listening to this, there's a good chance that Paul and I are either

in Boston for PAX, or at FTX salt for a big crypto convention. So definitely going to be on the road

here but awesome opportunity for anyone that's at PAX. You know, look around for us. We are going to

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record on Wednesdays but you guys, that's where you want

to spend your Friday night at PAX. I mean, yeah, forget about dinner, forget about

doing anything else. 7pm you're just doing your job plugging the show. It's okay, I'm the one

cutting you off.

Well, I love meeting with, with our audience with our fans in person. And it's so

wonderful to have these events, you know, eateries unfortunately cancelled but Pax is in full swing

full force. And again, if you're listening to this, where you are, you're probably Friday or

Thursday. So we'll be in Boston, look, look for us.

I will say also, we're going to have fun guests at PAX. So we invited some really

exciting people who are going to be part of that show. I don't know when we will release that live

episode, but it will be an episode that you guys will get to listen to. Or watch, we'll probably

put it out audio and video at some point. So if you can't make it to PAX, that's fine. But if

you're there, make sure to come say hi to us. I also don't want to I don't want to forget Jimmy

every Wednesday evening, we do a live stream 8:30pm Eastern Time and so many of you who come to

that I think have a lot of fun with it. And we wish more listeners more of you would come

participate ask questions. Instead of sending me questions, you know, between podcasts, come to the

live stream ask the question directly. It's almost it's always more fun when I get to respond

directly to me. What were you gonna say?

Oh, it's gonna kind of tee some of the people that will have on that panels don't.

Don't figure it out. Yeah.

And the you know, the crypto Bahamas conference is an interesting one. That'll

be fun. less fun for our viewers, because it'll be you and me in the Bahamas

is really, really tough right now.

Well, you know, I think it's telling when we are practically opening that

conference. And it's a panel on gaming and web three, obviously, because that, you know, they

want to talk about the intersection of crypto and gaming. But when gaming is basically opening the

conference, I think that's pretty good.

flattered to be there. And that one I will tease you know, President Clinton, Rick

Fox, Lakers, great Tom Brady, is going to be

on my panel with some other very fun people from the gaming space.

So a lot of great content coming out of holodeck, as you guys are familiar with.

But let's not delay this week's episode any longer. I think we have some great guests today.

And then I'll kick it over to you, Paul.

We do have again, I feel like I say this quite often, but the just keeps getting

better and better. And I guess as we grow, the guests get better and better. And and this week is

absolutely no exception. We have, I think two of the most exciting guests we've we've had in a very

long time. We have none other than Rob Moore, who is the CEO of sentinels, and Riley Jamison, who is

the VP of Marketing for sentinels. Both of you welcome to the business of esports podcast.

Hello, thank you for having us.

Oh, happy to be

here. Guys, for our listeners who maybe don't know about you or about sentinels and

I know that's probably not that many people but if they don't know we'd love a bit of your

backgrounds. how you got into gaming? Why you got into gaming you know what the backstory behind

sentinels is what you guys are focused on today just a bit of a Robin Riley story and the Sentinel

story.

Well, I spent most of my professional career in the movie business the last 11 years

with Paramount Pictures, and spent a lot of time building brands was involved in the launch of the

Avengers series with Marvel, and had three sons that were obsessed with video games. And as I

watched them and the way they interact with video games, it was just very compelling to me that they

watched video games the way they watched an NBA. And so I was I had a friend who was in a similar

situation with kids as well. And we kind of looked at the space and said, you know, we want to figure

out a way to be involved in this space for the long term. And so, in the summer of 2016, someone

came to us and said, there's a spot available and League of Legends. If you guys move quickly, you

can get in. So we bought a League of Legends team two weeks before the summer split, and managed to

not get relegated. And then we've gone through a number of different iterations over the past few

years, but then really settling in on the current strategy, the Sentinels branding, and the path

we're on a few years ago. And, you know, the really taking off with our valorant team and the

performance in Iceland last year, and now the last 12 months has been an amazing trajectory and

growth for the brand and the fan base. And so it's been a great build up and then the last couple of

months, then amazing. Wow, actual story.

My background actually kind of started in photography at Riot, I was running photography for

the LCS. So sort of was was shooting all the photos for all the teams in the LCS, all North

American photography and kind of working with teams on an individual level on branding and some

of that stuff, and then began talking with Rob at Phoenix one and sort of found a way to help the

teams more directly, something beyond just photography really was so interested in marketing

and growing individual brands. And it's kind of like a perfect opportunity to come in. And really,

you know, I think Rob and I really aligned on what he wanted to do with the brand. And kind of my

vision for it too. So came in there. And I guess I guess the rest is history really sort of, you

know, pioneered some of these new kinds of content strategies, some of the social media strategies.

And, you know, like Rob said, it's been kind of a wild ride, especially the last year or two. Taking

this to the moon.

Guys, I obviously, there's so much to the story to unpack into both of your

backgrounds. Rob, I want to start with you, and specifically, the movie business going from the

movie business to gaming, how much has has transferred directly? How much is completely

different? Right? Like, what are the differences and similarities that you've seen? And how much of

your past Have you been able to apply directly? Well, a lot of

it transfers that, you know, dealing with talent, that negotiating with superstars, you

know, going through this last year is we've had players just blow up and turn into some of the

most popular players in the world. And so, helping to build the Sentinels brand, helping to build

their brands, and then, you know, managing talent and how to keep on a path to be, you know, what

has been the number one organization in valorant, pretty much since the launch of the game. And so,

that element of dealing with talent and superstars and and, you know, trying to find people who have

that ability, right, because the dynamic of someone who can become a star, that is something

that in every industry, you're always looking. And so definitely an element of that is transferable.

And then, as we've talked about in terms of building a brand, and trying to come up with our

positioning and a voice for sandals. You know, a lot of that has been because I was at Disney

before I was at Paramount. So I've been through a lot of that of how do you have a consistent voice

so that you can communicate a brand to your audience that your audience knows who you are and

what to expect and what content to expect from you. And I think that's the thing that Riley and

his team have done an amazing job of. I'm constantly joking with Riley because he gets he's

gotten more and more and more discriminating on what post to wear. He and I it took probably like

24 hours till he finally wrote wented when I said when Tom Brady first retired that because we had

done a meme when Lionel Messi went and changed and left Barcelona, and I was like, alright, Tom

Brady's retiring, we've got to do a Tom Brady mean. And again, and I didn't go through a very

rigorous internal control process of all right, can we do something fun that the fans are gonna

engage with? And so fortunately, after I twist his arm, I think we ended up with like 50,000 likes on

Tom Brady and acetals Jersey would go hard. Why'd

you had to take that back? Literally, like, probably within that 24 hour

period, just about

I guess you know, we missed actually Riley we missed a beat because what we should have

said is Tom, we're sorry that the trial didn't go better with sentinels. But you have Tampa to fall

back to Tom.

It's been great, but we're exploring other options.

Can we talk about superstars a little bit? Because I'll admit, you know, I follow

certain games that I'm interested in. I'm not a League of Legends guy. And I've never been a big

league of legends player. But the first I heard of sentinels personally were like, it really was on

the map for me was fortnight World Cup. Obviously, booga. You know, winning that representing

sentinels there. I was surprised that just in your intros fortnight, and that wasn't mentioned where

both of you sort of leaned on League and valorant Weird. Where do you put that sort of, in the, in

the pantheon of important moments for sentinels? Oh, it

was probably the most important moments until we want ice. Right. I mean, it, it was the

moment that really put us on the map as an organization. And, you know, it was just an

amazing accomplishment. You know, it was, you know, we had got into the fortnight space really

early on. And we had signed Boga shortly after his 16th birthday. But it was such a whirlwind. But as

he won the first qualifier, and so he was headed to New York. And we had another player aspect who

qualified as well. And we sent their families to New York, and everyone kind of figured they were

going to have a nice long weekend, and that they'd probably go bring back $50,000 each, and we'd

continue on our way. And then in one of those moments, where you're suddenly like, watching it

develop, right, like, after we won the first round, you're like, oh, wow, okay, he's gonna be

competitive here. And then suddenly, you start to realize, I'd say it was probably after the third

round, it was like, He's gonna win this, and then trying to play catch up with, oh, wow, this is

something we certainly didn't go into the weekend expecting one of our players to, I mean, he's 16

years old, had never competed in front of an audience is in a pack, thrash stadium. And like,

it was not a big deal. And he just walked out there and roll the competition. And so that was

definitely, like I said, the first time were in being on The Tonight Show, and being on the show,

and suddenly, he was everywhere. And our brand was everywhere. And that was really the jumpstart the

Sentinels. As I said, in terms of our trajectory that really got us started. The reason that we

were so focused on Iceland is because for whatever reason, and using Twitter just because it's the

easiest numbers to kind of track, right? We went from like 10,000 to 50,000 to 100,000 followers

from kind of watch to bigger winning the world cup to when we were when we first started to really

pop and valorant from 100,000 to 600,000 Twitter followers basically in the last year, because that

dynamic of going to a team sport in an international competition, it just rare that North

America goes and brings back a title. And I would argue, us winning Iceland is one of the five

biggest accomplishments of a North American esports organization in history. To go and beat a

team from Brazil and a team from Korea and two teams from Europe and go undefeated and Iceland

and definitely captured the imagination of an entire sport. And so that the reason I think we

talked about valorant is we have become like the lone official Voice of valorant on Twitter. So you

know, Riley and his team will accept that this first. This first split was definitely the most

disappointing of our our team so far. But his team and his group managed to eat that leadership

position by creating a pool party that was basically like, alright, well, we aren't going to

Iceland, but at least we're going to have a pool.

It's equivalent, like being from Na, and having success in any FPS game. It's like

you're the guy under six foot in the NBA, right? Like, there's everything working against you to

begin with. No one expects big wins for any FPS game from North America. So I totally get it. But

Rob, maybe you could bring me sort of into the boardroom, after a bigger win after an Iceland

win. Like how much of the business strategy changed or right to Riley, the marketing strategy

change? After something major like that happen? Something unexpected and major like that?

Yeah, well, I'll talk to the strategy. And I'll let Riley talk to the marketing. But

certainly, from a strategy standpoint, again, those are the moments where it's like, all right

now is when we need to make a big investment in marketing the organization putting a big push into

the merchandise for the organization. You know, bogus when was the first time really that buying a

sentinels jersey. And that became a substantial revenue source for us right before that, it was

much more promotional and marketing. And that was the moment where it turned into Alright,

merchandising is now actually a line of business for us. And selling sentinels jerseys and

sentinels T shirts, suddenly, people wanted to own that brand and connect to that championship. And

so as we're looking at the company, and and where we're investing, where we're putting our focus

that really showed a level of okay, here's a, here's definitely a place, we're gonna get

substantial amount of revenue we had been in the past, and then really reinforcing business

philosophy of making investments in new games and trying to take a leadership position in those and

I'd say that victory in fortnight in that world cup is definitely a direct path to us being first

and in valorant, and taking a big leap in valor and and committing to the game, when the game had

basically been out for a month.

That's interesting.

Absolutely fascinating. And I want to just jump in, right, because this ties in with

what I would love to hear from you, Riley, you know, my favorite part was the comparisons to

Tiger Woods, who had won the masters that year, and the person BOGOs purse comparison there, and

I'm sure you guys saw that leaned into those memes would love to hear about the marketing strategy,

but also, that particular stat and what you guys did to really grow the brand and, and take

advantage of all of that hype.

I think I think that's a great point. And I think that's that really, really helped a lot of

people sort of bridge the gap between esports and traditional sports, because like it is there's

such a barrier to entry and it looks like kids playing video games, but then all of a sudden,

when you can take something like Tiger Woods, his purse, and then you know, say well, like bugga

made even even more money winning that we're like, Oh, hold on. Now I gotta take this seriously. You

know, and like, I think that like a lot of people really, really woke up because of that. Man on the

marketing side that day, at the World Cup. I know we had we had marketing people there in New York

with him and the day before, you know, we're doing media and we were getting reports like, hey, like,

bogus, kind of like lapping kids in the qualifier heats like he's, he's feeling pretty good. So

like, you know, your checkout tomorrow. And then, like Rob said, first game, you know, first round,

it's like, Oh, my God, like, this kid is so good. This kid is so good. And like that first year,

that fortnight World Cup, I'm not sure we'll ever see another esports event like it, it was really

one of a kind, like so many esports things are team based organization based in this, I think

just by design was any kid anywhere in the world. You know, fortnight was by far the most popular

game in the world, any kid could participate. It was sort of this like, American Dream writ large

on a on a global scale. You know, and so like there was there was such a strong narrative to it

and for for budgie to come out and not just win, but he was pretty much they were handing him the

trophy while people were still finishing the last game. You know what I mean? Like he was so far

ahead. Like it was such a decisive win. Like, that was that was massive. And I think from the moment

he lifted the trophy, it was, oh, it was all hands on deck, you know, like it was I think I was on

sort of like a soft vacation in Oxford and I was like, I'm on the phone. I'm driving home like I

got the whole team on call. You know, like I remember designing championship shirts on a laptop

right? They're like, you know, it's it's time to move. I think the next month was just ballistic.

You know? Just applying and I think, I think one of the things we've done even before bugga, across

other esports, and one sort of thing strategically that's helped us succeed is we've really fostered

like Rob said, sort of like the superstar status. And I think that's, that's a real key to success

is like when you're with an esports team is sort of identifying and facilitating stars on your

team. Like, it's definitely one aspect to have a great voice and a brand. But you know, you're

going to run into stars, if you're doing things, right, you know, people that are great at the game

that fans love and being able to, to capture and, you know, and deliver those fans like, okay, you

know, you want the Tiger Woods of this sport. Well, you know, we can make the claim that this is

it, and here's what it looks like. And, you know, we've had success doing that on teams in the past.

So I think when when Bhagat really blew up, we were in a great position to go, Okay, well, we we

know exactly how to do this next step right here, you know, like we're going to, we're going to give

you exactly the type of content you want. And like, you know, this is esport, fortnight wants a

superstar, and we were pretty well positioned to deliver on exactly that. And I think that's sort

of, you know, the reason not only that bug is succeeded so well, but that cells was able to sort

of grow with him because it felt like such a natural partnership, and that we were helping

deliver the fans exactly what they were looking for from him.

And I will say the amazing thing about Bogu is please hit that level of success at 16. But, like,

this year, like in the last six months, he won two major titles again, in fortnight, so he has

managed to that it wasn't, he's managed to prove it wasn't a fluke. And to me, in that level of

excellence has been truly amazing to watch for a kid who was so young to have so much success. And

to really stay with it with an obsession of I want to stay the best player in the world.

Can you can you speak to more what it's like, once you have a star of that caliber,

the difference I suppose, in recruiting new talent, as well as managing the existing talent,

and kind of what changes you know, when you're pre when, right versus now that you guys are just

stacking successes, what's kind of changed in terms of the organizational management culture,

but particularly with the talent that you have, as well as the talent you're attracting?

Well, I think it was kind of a progression, right? Like, when we first got the

League of Legends, it was just people who had no team, so therefore, it's like, all right, you're

gonna give us a shot. Awesome. Right. So that was kind of how we got into league of legends in the

very beginning. But then, as we started show, that, you know, Eric, Ma, and Charlie Lipsy have

been in this with me from day one, Eric is actually the person who, when Riot was requiring

the prior ownership to sell Eric, the one who went to China track down the person basically got the

team and brought it to me. And I said, Can you put together a business plan and a roster where we

won't get relegated? And he showed back up the next day with a business plan in our roster. And

I'm like, Alright, let's go do this. And so, we've consistently shown our ability to put together a

top team. But I think with Bobo winning the world cup, and then people seeing how we help facilitate

him explode into a superstar, that when valorant was forming, and a lot of high profile, people

were getting into the space, that when they were looking at organizations signed with, we weren't

viewed as a second choice, right, that you're looking at Cloud Nine and TSM. And Team Liquid

that said, Nova is now viewed by the community, certainly in terms of the representatives and the

players as as good an organization as you go to. And so that really elevated us into a top tier,

certainly from a community standpoint of Alright, this is an organization that can win, and can help

me build my brand if I'm successful.

Yeah, the superstar angle, I think is an interesting one. And I have to ask this

question, I ask it to every esports team that comes on the show esports order that comes on the

show, and I look at esports. Org, sort of as existing on this spectrum. And, and on one on one

end of the spectrum, you have an I'll just use some other teams as examples, maybe like a TSM, or

a Team Liquid, where the focus and we've had some of them on the show, the focus very much is on

winning, right. They care about putting and fielding teams that will win consistently. And if

they don't bring home a trophy, this is failure in their minds, right. And on the other end of the

spectrum, you have an I'll put I'll put the other extremes sort of like a phase where it's it's more

of it's about the content and you know, the cars and making videos that go via Roll. And I mean, no

one really cares if phase wins or loses. You know, it's all about the content, and the hoodies and

whatever else, right? So you've got sort of what I call hoodie orgs on one end, and you have these

very sort of performance focused orgs. On the other end, where dissent and those exist on that

spectrum, or if you don't agree that it should exist on that spectrum, where where does it fit

relative to others?

Well, I think we're trying to cherry pick those two strategies, right, which is that we're

not trying to compete in 18 games, you're not going to be able to service at games. So we're

trying to be great in every game we're in. Right, so we have the World Cup champion in fortnight, we

have a team that last year was the best team in the world consistently in valorant. We have now a

team in Halo infinite, that is certainly a top three team. And using that as an entry point to

fans, but then feeling an obligation to then give fans amazing content to engage with. And then

using those superstars to create content and to create merchandise so that the fans can connect to

those players. So I think as you look at what those other words have done, and it certainly is

an advantage to us being the newest of everyone, you just mentioned it to kind of look and see what

other people have done and, and have no ego about saying, alright, we can borrow strategies that we

see working from other people, and then really dive into them. And so as you look at then what

we've accomplished in social media, a lot of Riley's teeny really connecting with the fan

communities in those sports that we are succeeding in LA said, getting to a place where even though

we were out of this last major tournament, that the fans were basically looking for us to be the

voice of the tournament. And so the amount we have more engagement in our quitter, during a

tournament we're not in than the collective of all the teams that are in the turn. That's where we

really feel like we've evolved, which is that the way we got in front of the fans was by winning,

but now we feel an obligation. Entertainment.

Absolutely.

Right. Theater, the platform of choice for you guys.

You know, we definitely we definitely use Twitter in a very unique way, I think I think it

is it is the platform that we use to primarily communicate. But we have independent strategies

for every every platform. I mean, tick tock is our fastest growing platform of million followers in a

year. You know, Instagram is unbelievably successful. Twitter just does something very

unique. And it's very, it's very useful to us, I guess, is a good thing to say. And a lot of the a

lot of the conversation. As a whole Twitter's uniquely positioned to facilitate conversation

compared to Instagram, definitely compared to Tik Tok or YouTube. So, you know, I think

acknowledging it as that and using it as that to a place to facilitate messaging and communication is

that's been really successful. Yeah, I want to I want to touch on what you said earlier, because I

think that was a really interesting question of like, you know, what is sort of more successful

to, you know, to be focused on winning, or to be focused on your marketing and your superstars. And

we've kind of thought about that a lot. And I think, I think it's important internally to have

this drive to win and to be dominant in in every game. And we certainly do and like, like Rob said,

like, Charlie and Eric are probably the best scouts in all of esports. And I think that's led

to a lot of our success, they found bugga, they found this valorant team, they found every player

that we've that we have, and that definitely drives us were ruthless about wanting to win.

Where I, where I see, I think a lot of teams stumble from a marketing perspective is when you

make winning your forward marketing narrative. I think that's really, what's the word maybe

dangerous in a way because you're so clear about what your goals are, that it gives fans and people

looking from the outside and opportunity to see when you've not met your goals. So when you say

all we care about is winning, and then you get fourth place, suddenly you're in this really

precarious situation where it feels like you've disappointed your fans and so something that we

always try to do, like yes, we're always going to try to win, but our narrative can't just be Hey,

we're here to win or we're going to be sad. You know, like, like, it's always coming here like,

you know, we're here to we're going to put on a show we're going to deliver you these

personalities and these you know, these people that you come in love, you know, like we're in And

we're facilitating delivering them to you. And then what's so kind of wonderful about that

strategy is when you go in when on top of that, suddenly, that's the, that's the rocket fuel,

right there, you know, you've sort of got this winning message. And then competitively You

dominated to, that's where I think people really see, see the growth there.

But the one of the best things that he said that Riley's team has done is taking, and again, this

kind of position, and valorant, and really embracing it so that even when we lost, the fans

were as engaged as they ever were. And I'm gonna say, weirdly, in this last month, they're at their

most engaged, even though it's coming off of the moment where our valorant team had the toughest

split, but engaging with the fans, entertaining the fans, and then creating this pool party that

became like bigger than life, but then was able to morph into the place where we can then engage with

our sponsor, bring content to the fans, that was completely consistent with what they've been

saying, but a great way to introduce. So when we made we just announced your partnership G Fuel,

and brought G Fuel to the pool party, and the engagement on that video. And the assumption that

video was that it was entertainment. It was it even though it says that it's an ad, and it is

clearly identified as sponsored content, the fans just saw it as content. And I think that's one of

the great things that we've accomplished is finding ways to entertain the fans with content.

And as Riley said, when you win at the same time, it's amazing. And occasionally fans goof on us

when we're not winning. But the level of engagement that we've had, you know, at some

point, at first, the pool party was really focused on North America. And then the fans were kind of

looking at us. And when somebody got knocked out of the European qualifier, they're like, Wait, why

did you invite them? They demanded it. And I said to Riley, I go, I go, people view us as like the

valor and spokespeople for the Western world. And then I realized no, no people view us as the valid

spokespeople for the world. And so that is carried on and only grown, as we've gotten toward the

championship coming up this next week. But it's also been amazing to watch the other orgs just

embrace it. And so we've had this interesting rivalry developed with G two. And so when G two,

like when we got knocked out of the qualifier on Monday, G two posted to us, hey, hey, sentinels,

how's your week going? This kind of rubbing a little salt load. So when they, when they lost a

map, we posted a G to you're halfway to the cool part. And then we created this, like fake chat

that was on our Twitter of like D two and basically created a post that would seem like

Carlos, but then Carlos just engaged with the tweet himself anyway, and kind of chimed in and

said, I hate it here. Like, because we had basically brought him to the pool party. And he

said, you know, F set molds and, and then we posted that for him. But then he actually chimed

in and was like, I hate this ballpark. Right? It has been great to see that engagement. And the

fans have, you know, really loved it and just been with it. And you know, kind of looking at us to

say, All right, we want you to entertain us and you're doing a great job. And I think that, you

know, Riley's team has just done an incredible job of

exactly, I think this pool party has really taken a life of its own. And I remember when, you know,

it looked like, hey, we might be knocked out of this tournament that you know, people it's our

first tournament, international tournament we've ever not attended as a valorant team. So, you

know, that task kind of balls to me, like okay, like how does, how does sentinels handle, you

know, like, like a tough moment from a marketing standpoint losing so I'm like, sitting here with

like, Okay, I need to make, I need to make losing cool. All of a sudden, you know, like, that's that

that's, that's really tough. And so kind of like went through in this idea that like, you know,

we're not sad. It's not a big deal. Yeah, we got our flip flops on, we're by the pool we're having,

you know, like, once I kind of like worked out and landed on something that felt strong and workable.

I realized that not only us, but essentially, every team except whoever eventually wins this

tournament is going to go through this same difficult moment. And I noticed a lot of times

teams shrink a lot at that losing moment because it's difficult and fans are disappointed and

started thinking like, Okay, well, like if I feel like I've solved this problem for us, which was

difficult, you know, it took time, like, why don't we offer this strategy and create sort of a soft

landing for every team, you know, at your most difficult marketing moment, instead of being sad?

We're gonna shoot you an invite and a pair of flip flops to our full party and I think that's

honestly what made it click is like, you know, like, you know, like a port in a storm. For a lot

of these teams that were going through something difficult, like you don't have to shrink away. You

don't have to go silent. You know, you can maintain the mood and the vibes like get in here

we're having a party. None of us got in. So we're all watching the games and having G Fuel this sort

of

a shot at them Riley Right? Like you are sort of taking a shot. But that drama does

well in sports, any sports, and I've always said there just wasn't enough, like esports has always

been to clinical. And I used to joke at the NY Excel here, the Overwatch team in New York, I'm in

New York, it was a six players all from Korea that are tremendously skilled players, but they're

trying to be the team of New York, like I said, publicly, and I'm the pious, like, put a couple of

guys from Brooklyn on there, right? Like, even if you lose some games, you're gonna get something

entertaining out of it. And so I love this, like, I'm curious how much of your marketing thinking is

around? Like, can I get a bit of drama? Can I create some drama here

95%.

Like, it is like yesterday's post. So like, if you look at our Twitter today, or yesterday, there was

a post that has 30,000 likes, which is us goofing on ninja, rebranding, and creating a new logo. And

if you look at ninja, who has 10 times the followers on Twitter, yes, the same number of

likes on his announcement of his new logo that we got up on is the logo. And a lot of the fans

basically saying this is where I look for that is just gives me all the information that is around

it esports. And this is like the perfect attitude to engage with. And so now at the same time,

right, that definitely means there are people gunning for you and people who are times get

tweaked mentally, one of the North American valorant themes, didn't have a particularly strong

showing in the events and suddenly got very upset about this where everybody else is just kind of

gone with the joke and had fun with it. And basically, as Riley said, it's the moment where

you're most depressed, but at least it was just a way to have some fun with it. They did not take it

that way. They were upset at us and optic optic, I think posted last man standing and we basically

opened the door for them to join the join the pool party, and their players got super like tweaked

about it. And we're kind of like, okay, this is not that aggressive of an engagement versus G two,

who ran in a plane and flew it around Berlin with a big sign that said F seven. You know, I think G

two is probably a level farther just in terms of how extreme they go. But I think you know, as we

look at other orgs, they're certainly one from a branding standpoint in the way they engage with

their fan base. Like, you know, Carlos who runs GE two has no problem goofing on his own organization

or his teams, right? And like, meaning on big throws and big matches, and just having fun with I

think when you get back to the core of this, right? This is all about how do we entertain

people. Right? That's, oh, man, watch esports you want to be entertained? And so I think that's what

we've tried to do from a marketing standpoint and a branding standpoint is, how do we help the fans

have fun, have fun with esports. And sometimes you're having fun because you're watching your

favorite team win. And sometimes you're having fun because you're watching your favorite team goof on

other teams. And so that's what we've tried to do. And I think we've really hit a great place with it

over the last six months. And you saw it in the first quarter, put our analytics where our average

engagement was first in the world, but not only was first in the world, it was a massive first

place and way ahead of words like Faze clan and 100 thieves who use that are very much focused on

content. That that's, you know, certainly with phase that's their absolute leadership plays. And

that our engagement was four times there's in the first quarter of the year, as you said a quarter

where it was actually a down quarter for our teams from a competitive standpoint. And where that

branding, which was much more about how do we have fun with esports space? How do we entertain you in

the esports space really came to the front

page engagement got higher in a tournament that we're not in, which is then I challenge anyone

else to do that. That's a that's a really tricky one. I think I think Rob kind of like set it up

like nicely in that like, recognizing that fans want value. Like they want a storyline they want

something interesting. So recognizing that like we can sort of use our online identity to start beef

and make it in Interesting and sort of like, you know, use our chips, you know, we're all in on

this. So like, yeah, if we talked a lot of smack, and then we lose, we look, you know, we look bad,

right, but like, that adds value to the fans, because now we have skin in the game. Like, like

if we lose, like we actually risked something here, you know, and that made it more interesting

for fans. And I think people, you know, people really latch on to that. And that's why even if

we're not in the tournament, they're happy that we're there. We're kind of the main characters of

valorant. I think they're glad that we're that we didn't disappear just because we're not in the

tournament, you know, we're still a part of it.

But if I have to take a lesson here, guys, I'm going to as part of the promo for

the show, we're just going to cut up bits and pieces that you both have said, to create some

horrible beef some some just completely offensive beef

will not be hard, because there's no question. You know, if you follow our social

media, we definitely have a swagger to it, and definitely have an attitude. And I think some

other orgs got tweaked that that swagger didn't diminish when we lost. And it was like, oh, no,

no, no, you can't continue to have that on to really

let me take the business question to sort of its ultimate limit here, which is fast

forward five years. Okay. If you're looking at the revenue mix of your business five years from now,

what is the ideal mix in your mind between, let's say these three things, merchandise, like brand

deals, sponsorship, things like that, and tournament winnings, like what would be the

optimal mix in your mind for your org, five years from now?

Well, you left out one big revenue piece that is definitely one that we're focused on and

the publisher focused on which is creating right, creating no creating endgame content with your

right. So like, the new Halo game, that I'll give Microsoft a lot of credit that they really made a

big investment to say, All right, we're going to relaunch Halo Halo as an esport. They launched

with a giant tournament in Raleigh. And part of the launch of the game was the 10 partnered

organizations all had endgame content. So you could buy a sentinel skin, so that when you first

downloaded Halo infinite, you can immediately play as your favorite organization. And so publishers

have been developing that content. And certainly consistent with other elements of what we see

happening in the digital space, but letting you create your image in game, and therefore, you can

have your suit be the organization, your gun skin, that. So having that ability to connect to your

favorite organization, even as you're playing the game, not even when you're watching the game. And

so that has been a really fast growing element of the business. And like you said, the publishers

have put a big focus on that. Apex, which is the one game we had talked about, we're also in the EA

starting to roll that out. And like I said, Halo doing the best job of making it part of their game

launch and really making it part of connecting players to organizations so that you go from being

a halo player to a halo esport fan. And so that is become a very big part of the revenue stream, and

I think will continue to grow because it's the most natural way for a publisher to connect their

fan to the organization. And then I think, sponsorship, because, you know, I spent, like I

said, I spent a lot of time in marketing and the movie business. And the hardest group of people to

find are how do you find teenagers and 20 year olds, they just have totally different media

habits than their parents. And so there you have an avenue, as we said that we're developing a

daily conversation with these folks, of people that are the hardest to reach. So when we can have

organic connections, so like G Fuel, which was oddly the most organic with us, because our

players were big fans of G Fuel. Riley had a great soundbite where I think it might have been ZOMBS,

where I was like, well, this team site, even this team, we don't even need to drink our D field

today. Because they're not at our level. So we have disrespect. The level of disrespect is we

don't even need our G field today. And so having those places where sponsors and product are very

organic to the team and the organization and the fan base. It's a there's a natural connection. And

so I think that will continue to grow. And like I said, The in game content and you you grow. And I

think the other element that Riley has and his team have done an amazing job of is creating

merchandise that again allows the fans to connect to the player. So like having a tense hoodie and

and shazam t shirt, and shazam phone case. And so giving your fans merchandising opportunities to

connect with fans, prize money being so volatile that, yes, when the when Buddha wins a $3 million

first prize, there's a windfall, but really not counting on that as part of the business plan. And

viewing that is, you know, the great wins when they come in, but feeling the other is building

blocks that we can definitely continue to build our brand, which will lead to those revenue. So

that's how we look at this. We're building our plan for the next three years.

I love the focus on fun and entertainment and engagement. Right, that that's

why the brand activations work better with you guys, right than I would argue some other orgs.

Because you see, like, you've got sort of your hand on the pulse of what the audience wants to

actually see, and what they actually want to how they actually want to be entertained. And, and

esports hasn't always been completely successful at that, right. So I love to see that, guys. We're

we're almost running over on time here. So I want to make sure we get to everyone's favorite new

segment, we call this judge Jimmy's cross examination. The idea is to get a little bit

behind the scenes in terms of who you guys are as people as gamers. Judge Jimmy, take it

away. Couple quick questions. Paul stealing my five year plan when that I say for the

love to answer that one. I love that we had more time Rob for you to dive into that. So let's get

some quick ones out of the way. First question to both you rob and Riley. What is your favorite game

to watch or to play?

Well, the one thing I didn't we didn't talk about and I'm not answering the question in

the spirit of rapid fire. But actually known for the person in the organization who watches the

most competitive sports and plays the league. A huge sports fan. I grew up watching esports and

now I couldn't watch more valorant More League of Legends I still watch the every match from the LEC

and I watch every match for the lfls Yes and I watch pretty much every valorant match in North

America and and everything in this international so I'm definitely the leading consumer of esports

content. Riley definitely is the one who can answer the game. The Gamer question much better

than I get.

Oh man yeah, we'll have meetings and Rob will give us the update on he catch what happened in the

Korean League of Legends when will we have time to watch Korea legal scene at all in terms of watch

ability and I I've watched a lot of esports I don't think anything compares to valorant I mean

and you can go back to CSGO before I think it's just really hit the nail on like the most

watchable tense moment you know this five the five and it dwindles down and you get the two V three

the one v two the clutch moments like just from a spectator sport I think anybody even if you're not

familiar with it very quickly can come in and really like just grab on to what's happening. You

know, compare that to like Overwatch which I think is really fun to play. But from a spectator

standpoint is really difficult even even if you're like weigh in it just doesn't have the same I

don't know the same have the drama. It doesn't have quite the same drama The intensity like

balance a little more like football you know what I mean? Like once the once the ball snaps, you

know, like it's extremely intense until the ball is down. Right and magic can happen. And those

little in between moments. I think it's been so great watching balance so closely because like,

Boy if you want your heart to be fast, like be the first place person at an international tournament

watching live on stage like it's Oh, it'll kill you. In terms of where you play, I think I think I

really like Apex legends. I don't know if you guys play Apex legends. That game is so fun and so fast

can just turn them over. You know, it's also really fun with watch man to play I think. I think

that's dude, he's done a great job with that game. And it's so fun to play. I'm also better at it

than I am at valorant. So that might affect that might affect.

Most people don't most people don't know this. I did get an offer from what is now a

tier one org to play apex. So I do love I really do. Yeah, the whole shtick was gonna be I was

gonna be the oldest, the oldest guy in esports. Finally, I feel like you could do wonders with

this. Let's talk goes.

Well now you said that the fact that matter is when G two first started their beef and

at some point I like goofed back on Carlos and G two, and their fans started calling me grandpa.

And then I basically I said in our next our next call, I said, Am I actually the oldest person in

esports? Like, is there anyone else like, over 50 Like with a substantial role in this? So there you

go. That's like,

sports is only 1012 years old.

After this can compare life insurance plans

don't know how to transition out of that one. We've heard a lot of talk at G Fuel.

today. I'm going to ask for your go to game or snack or your favorite flavor of G Fuel.

Oh, man, I got it. Okay, there's this flavor called shiny splash. Oh my god, it's blue.

It's it's I don't know what I read. It's kind of it'd be like a lemonade something. But it's

fantastic. We were filming tic TOCs sort of weird story. I guess we're filming tiktoks for G Fuel

yesterday and I had to like make G Fuel and film it for the Tiktok we're putting it to some

atrocious meme sound because that's how Tiktok works. And then I was like, Well, I'm not gonna

waste this so I think I was right before I was in a call with Rob I just down like this much people.

I was like, I will not be crazy on this call. Man. I feel like I'm ready to go pro game. Right?

I have a sweet tooth. So for better or worse, the, the product that I have most become connected to

are the flavor crystals and really like the sour cherry. And just find myself kind of constantly

like going instead of eating some candy

or dry No, no water.

This isn't those it's like you'll pop rocks.

It rubs dry scooping.

It was a selfish question, guys. I gotta try some of these out. I'm looking for the

next one. I'm gonna give you one more because we have two of you today. I'm going to make this a

little bit broader than normal as well. I typically ask for a favorite, your favorite

crossover IP that has success in gaming and traditional entertainment. But I'm going to

broaden it to also kind of gaming collaborations. So examples could be like the Witcher or Kane on

Netflix. It could be Call of Duty and diehard the diehard skins and cod or the new Snoop Dogg's in

the came out today Wednesday, fortnight Balenciaga, etc. Favorite crossover IP or kind of

blend of worlds within gaming as that center point.

So now I'm gonna, I'm gonna, unfortunately not cooperate on this question,

because I'm gonna say it is the thing, right that certainly Charlie Lindsay and I are the most

obsessed with. And that's like, the one last thing we haven't accomplished yet is to have that big

brand crossover from outside of game. And so that is like, the thing that we are like most focused

on saying, Alright, this is the one big thing we still have left. So I'm not going to dip my cap

anybody

gonna give them any? Any kind of lip service? Nothing. Don't even give them the

time of day. Rob. I love it.

I mean, that's not us getting I'm getting it we'll be on somebody else's list next night.

No pressure Riley yesterday, that'll be that'll be my favorite will definitely be ours. But I'm glad

you mentioned arcane because I first of all, Arcane was absolutely phenomenal. And I watched

it, I think it actually became sort of like a cultural point, you know, that everybody was

talking about but not only did I enjoy it so much, and we watched every episode, but actually got me

to reinstall League of Legends and, you know, playing League of Legends again, and I think I

think, you know, when you think about their goals for that project, you can't find a bigger success

than that, you know, watching this seeing all the characters and the IP that I loved. It was just

like, that's it. I'm booting up right now. I gotta get back into the game. I got to play these

characters that I'm seeing on screen. What a success. That was. I love that one.

That wraps it up for this week. Rob Riley, thanks so much, guys. Back to you, Paul.

Rob Riley. First of all, thank you. This is the most fun I think I've had on the

podcast in a while. Some great stories here. If people want to follow you guys individually, reach

out for business or follow what sentinels is doing. What are the best places they can find or

follow you guys?

Well, I'm Rob Moore esports on Twitter and certainly through the Sentinels made account,

which we've certainly been very obsessed with driving people to.

Yeah, follow up follow at sentinels for everything. If you want to be a part of the banter

on Twitter or any other platform. I'm at Riley Jas on Twitter, too. I'm a sentinels, retweet robot.

So get your feet either way.

I love it guys. Thank you so much for being on the show. Jimmy. Thank you guys.

Thank you as always, thank you everyone for listening, tuning in every week really appreciate

it. Don't forget Wednesday evening 8:30pm Eastern Time, we do a live stream. We cover all the news

from the week. It's a bigger cast. And we do it live with you guys. So it's a lot of fun. You get

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appreciate it. Thank you guys. Don't forget the future is fun. We'll see you next week.

Thank you so much. Bye, everyone.

Thanks for listening to the business of esports podcast. Check us out at the business of