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Breastfeeding Trauma and Grief: Sarah Edge (Part 1)
Episode 352nd September 2024 • BLUE MUMDAYS • Vikki Stephenson
00:00:00 01:08:17

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To launch Blue MumDays Season 3, host Vikki welcomes Sarah Edge, a perinatal specialist psychotherapist. In the first part of their discussion, Sarah shares her deeply personal and emotional journey through pregnancy, childbirth, and the complex challenges of infant feeding. She discusses her experiences with breastfeeding trauma and grief and the stark contrast between her expectations and the reality of motherhood. Sarah offers heartfelt advice to parents struggling with similar issues, emphasising the importance of compassion and seeking support. The episode also explores societal pressures and the impact of invalidation on mental health.

*Trigger Warning: *birth trauma, neonatal intensive care, breastfeeding trauma, feelings of suicide and baby loss.

In This Episode We Discuss:

[00:00] Teaser quote

[04:40] Not enjoying the pregnancy/not being what she’d expected or planned/sickness.

[08:27] Sensitivity and being self-conscious during pregnancy about how she looked

[08:04] Pregnancy isn’t an illness but it can be a hard slog on the body and mind. Expectations vs. reality.

[15:24] The birth – labour at 36 weeks. Family history of this. Primal urge to birth on her own.

[23:33] The ‘rush of love’ – actually quite rare.

[24:30] The birth took a turn – vomiting and post-partum haemorrhage.

[25:57] First attempts at breastfeeding, when things got really difficult.

[30:41] Feeling nervous about being sent home from hospital and the fear of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome)

[32:43] Severe jaundice - A+E and panic attack. The ramping up of anxiety. Jack in an incubator.

[37:05] Turning a corner, starting formula feeding.

[39:15] The toll of triple feeding and sleep deprivation on Sarah’s mental health. Start of suicidal thoughts. Rock bottom.

[43:17] Understanding breast feeding trauma.

[48:56] Finding out what works best for you and your family.

[49:50] Writing about her experience – the importance of sharing our struggles.

[52:09] Invalidation and trauma.

[56:37] Breastfeeding grief and how you won’t lose that precious bond.

[01:01:49] Sarah’s experience second time around, with her daughter.

[01:05:32] Compassion is the antidote to trauma.

Key Takeaways:

1.   Click this link for more information on Sarah Edge and her Maternal Mental Health services

2.   Information here on The Fed is Best Foundation, which supports all families to safely feed their babies whether they feed with breast, bottle, or both (combination feeding).

3.   Read Sarah’s article on Infant Feeding Trauma here on the Fed is Best website.

4.   Adjustment disorder is a mental health condition that occurs when someone has an unhealthy or excessive reaction to a stressful event or life change. Symptoms can include stress, sadness or hopelessness, negative thoughts and changes in behaviour.

5.   For information and support on hyperemesis gravidarum (HG is extreme sickness during pregnancy), click this link for Pregnancy Sickness Support. They are the only UK registered charity dedicated to offering support and evidence-based information to those affected by pregnancy sickness. They helped Sarah during her experience of HG.

6.   NICU means a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, which is a hospital unit providing specialised care for newborn babies who are sick or premature. 

7.   Phototherapy is a special light treatment sometimes used to treat newborn jaundice. It aims to expose the baby’s skin to as much light as possible, making it easier for the baby’s liver to break down and remove bilirubin from their blood.

8.   Triple feeding is a short-term breastfeeding method involving breastfeeding, pumping and bottle-feeding. The aim is to increase natural milk production whilst ensuring the baby is getting enough to eat.

9.   SIDS stands for Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Read NHS information on SIDS here.

10. Listen to 'When Birth Leads to Trauma' with Dr. Becca Moore of Make Birth Better here

11. Listen now to Dr Orinayo Onabanjo's episode on 'Mum Guilt, Trauma and Systemic Inequality'

12. Self compassion is so important when recovering from trauma. Listen to 'Self Compassion with Poonam Dhuffer' via this link

13. For anyone seeking support on baby loss, we hope the following links are helpful: Click this link for the Sands Charity, information on Petals, the baby loss counselling charity and click for information on Mayah's Legacy, the charity to support those who have lost a baby.

14. This link leads you to the Lactation Consultants of Great Britain website. A lactation consultant can help you with breastfeeding issues and advice. Sally Rickard of Baby Thrive will be featured in an upcoming episode to discuss breastfeeding.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, share it and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.

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Email: bluemumdays@gmail.com

Next Episode:

In the second part of this interview, Sarah Edge talks to host Vikki about her struggle with hyperemesis gravidarum (HG, or extreme sickness during pregnancy) and her battle with postnatal depression, following the birth of her daughter. (Released Monday 7th October 2024).

YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER. 

We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).

Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)

Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.

Email: app@app-network.org / Tel: 020 3322 9900


AIMS for better birthing.

Email: helpline@aims.org.uk

This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible. / Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663 (leave message)


Andy's Man Club

A non-judgemental talking group for men

https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/ info@andysmanclub.co.uk


Association of Postnatal Illness

Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868 / Email: info@apni.org (Live chat online facility)


Best Beginnings

Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering 24/7 App support for new parents


Birth Trauma Association

Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk


CALM

Contact CALM on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)


Cedar House Support Group

Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise) / Mobile: 07773 283556

 

Contact: for families with disabled children

Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.


Contact a Family

www.cafamily.org.uk

Contact a Family offer support for all childhood conditions, are also able to put families in touch. Featuring a directory of conditions and rare disorders online.

Helpline: 0808 808 3555 (lines open Monday – Friday 9.30am – 5pm)


Dad Matters

Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting.

kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk

0161 344 0669


DadsNet 

Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.


Dope Black Dads

A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world. hello@dopeblack.org


Family Lives

An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Helpline: 0808 800 2222 / www.familylives.org.uk


Family Rights Group

Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services. Helpline: 0808 801 0366 / www.frg.org.uk

 

Link for information on Fathers Reaching Out

Run by paternal mental health pioneer Mark Williams, offering support to dads.


Link to Fatherhood Solutions


Scott Mair is a consultant in paternal mental health and parent education, Peer support trainer. Dad, Husband, Army veteran. 

 

FiveXMore

A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK. Email: fivexmore@gmail.com


Gingerbread

Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents. Helpline 0808 802 0925 / www.gingerbread.org.uk


The Hub of Hope - A directory of mental health support around the UK.


Link for the Lactation Consultants of Great Britain – for support with breastfeeding.


LGBT Mummies

Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.

Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com


Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)

Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org


Maternal OCD

Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange


Mayah's Legacy

Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves. Email: info@bigoutreach.org / 0300 102 1596


The Motherhood Group

Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy. info@themotherhoodgroup.com


Motivational Mums Club

Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother. motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com


Music Football Fatherhood - hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com

Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.


Muslim Women’s Network

Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am–4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko and Bengali. Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk

Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk / Text: 07415 206 936


National Autistic Society www.autism.org.uk

Support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.


Netmums

Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-InClinic.

 

NHS Services for Mental Health Issues

Contact your local GP surgery. Call the NHS on 111 and press 2 for Mental Health Team

or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline

If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

 

PANDAS

Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401

Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk


Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario

PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada

info@perinatalwellbeing.ca


Petals Baby Loss Charity - click for information

Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy or baby loss. Tel: 0300 688 0068

Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/ Email: counselling@petalscharity.org


Click for information on The Samaritans

Tel: 116 123 (this is a free telephone number and will not appear on the phone bill)

Web: www.samaritans.org / Email: jo@samaritans.org


Transcripts

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:00

My son was really healthy and was doing really well.

SARAH EDGE:

And they said, you know, "Do you want to try and feed him?"

SARAH EDGE:

And I would say that was probably the moment that it all started to

SARAH EDGE:

get difficult for me and for us

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't know that you could have problems breastfeeding.

SARAH EDGE:

I genuinely thought if you want to breastfeed, you put your baby

SARAH EDGE:

to the breast and they feed.

SARAH EDGE:

I just didn't feel like myself at all.

SARAH EDGE:

Just sort of existing in this state of perpetual fear.

SARAH EDGE:

I couldn't sleep.

SARAH EDGE:

I was starting to think, you know, actually, "if I can't feed my baby,

SARAH EDGE:

almost like what's the point of me?

SARAH EDGE:

Well, that's my only role and if I can't fulfill that, then he

SARAH EDGE:

literally doesn't need me".

SARAH EDGE:

Like "anybody could feed him a bottle, anybody can feed him

SARAH EDGE:

formula, he doesn't need me".

SARAH EDGE:

And so much of my worth as a mum was wrapped up in this breastfeeding.

SARAH EDGE:

Feeding is, you know, essential for human life.

SARAH EDGE:

So if that's threatened or that's difficult, no wonder it

SARAH EDGE:

results in a trauma response.

SARAH EDGE:

We almost have in our mind that breastfeeding is what makes a

SARAH EDGE:

"good mum" and a healthy baby.

SARAH EDGE:

So when it doesn't go right, it's so hard.

SARAH EDGE:

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

SARAH EDGE:

But for many mums, and dads, it can be the hardest, and at

SARAH EDGE:

times the darkest of places.

SARAH EDGE:

Welcome to Season 3 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

SARAH EDGE:

struggling with parenting.

SARAH EDGE:

You need to know that you are not alone.

SARAH EDGE:

And these awful feelings will not be with you forever.

SARAH EDGE:

Just one word - all the stories shared here are from the heart.

SARAH EDGE:

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

SARAH EDGE:

please listen with discretion.

SARAH EDGE:

Your wellbeing is so important, so if you need to take a breather or stop listening,

SARAH EDGE:

please know that you can at any point.

SARAH EDGE:

Today's episode covers hyperemesis gravidarum (extreme sickness during

SARAH EDGE:

pregnancy), birth trauma, neonatal intensive care, breastfeeding trauma

SARAH EDGE:

feelings of suicide, and baby loss

SARAH EDGE:

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

SARAH EDGE:

Thank you.

SARAH EDGE:

This episode was recorded ----- during the winter of 2022.

VIKKI:

Today's guest is Sarah Edge.

VIKKI:

Sarah is a perinatal specialist psychotherapist working in South

VIKKI:

Manchester, with a special interest in supporting women with infant-feeding

VIKKI:

guilt and trauma- usually following a period of difficulty breastfeeding.

VIKKI:

Sarah is a mum of two and suffered from anxiety following breastfeeding

VIKKI:

difficulties after the birth of her son, and PND and an adjustment disorder

VIKKI:

following the birth of her daughter.

VIKKI:

Writing has always been a part of Sarah's personal wellness.

VIKKI:

But after her experience of motherhood, she began to write professionally about

VIKKI:

perinatal mental health and infant feeding guilt and how to recover from this.

VIKKI:

Some of her work can be found at www.fedisbest.org and

VIKKI:

in Therapy Today magazine.

VIKKI:

She has also written a Maternal Mental Health Manual, which can

VIKKI:

be purchased from her website, www.maternalmentalhealthmanual.com.

VIKKI:

Welcome to Blue MumDays - I'm so pleased to have you with us today Sarah.

SARAH EDGE:

Hi Vikki, hi.

SARAH EDGE:

I'm really excited to be here.

VIKKI:

So if we could start off first of all with your son and your experience

VIKKI:

of having him, and I think because we've got so much to cover - we'll

VIKKI:

split this episode into two parts.

VIKKI:

So we'll talk about your daughter in part two, but yeah, how was pregnancy for you?

VIKKI:

How was that experience?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

Like it actually, it feels weird to kind of separate them out actually.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think I've spent so much time, kind of, you know, my daughter's only two now.

SARAH EDGE:

So kind of so much brain space and time thinking about her birth and my

SARAH EDGE:

experience after her, yeah, it kind of feels sort of strange going back to the

SARAH EDGE:

very beginning, but almost that's what kind of sets the foundation really of

SARAH EDGE:

my, you know, experience into motherhood because he was my first, he was my eldest.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think you go into it the first time with...

SARAH EDGE:

a sort of blissful naivety that like, you know things happen, you know people can

SARAH EDGE:

struggle with birth or pregnancy or...

SARAH EDGE:

but I don't know, for me personally, I kind of felt like they

SARAH EDGE:

sort of wouldn't happen to me.

SARAH EDGE:

We'd only been married for a year at the time that I got pregnant with Jack, and

SARAH EDGE:

he was - yeah, he was a bit of a surprise!

SARAH EDGE:

But I was kind of just overwhelmed with excitement and joy when I found

SARAH EDGE:

out I was having Jack . You know, I can remember seeing the two lines on the

SARAH EDGE:

pregnancy test and just being like, "Oh!"

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, just so excited, so excited to tell people!

SARAH EDGE:

Just, yeah, totally different to my experience having my daughter.

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, that excitement was kind of short-lived when I suffered

SARAH EDGE:

from quite extreme nausea in sickness in both of my pregnancies.

SARAH EDGE:

With my daughter I was diagnosed with hyperemisis (gravidas), but with Jack

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't have it as bad the first time.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was more sick than average I would say - I felt shocking.

SARAH EDGE:

And yeah, I found that really, really hard.

SARAH EDGE:

Because I think in my mind, I had seen pregnancy to be this time

SARAH EDGE:

in my life where I was gonna be kind of super healthy, super

SARAH EDGE:

focused on myself and my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd kind of had these grand dreams of, you know, I was gonna be - I

SARAH EDGE:

don't again, why would I think this?!

SARAH EDGE:

- but I thought I was gonna be a 'CrossFit mum', I was gonna be doing all of this

SARAH EDGE:

health and wellness stuff and kind of thought, you know, I wouldn't be drinking.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was gonna be really the best version of me possible.

SARAH EDGE:

So in my mind, I'd imagined this kind of super fit woman, which it just

SARAH EDGE:

makes me laugh now because I think that's never been a version of me.

SARAH EDGE:

So why I kind of thought I'd be a totally different person

SARAH EDGE:

in pregnancy I don't know!

SARAH EDGE:

But this, yeah, this version of me that was this shining example

SARAH EDGE:

of health and and wellness.

SARAH EDGE:

And actually the reality was 24 hours sort of laid down on a sofa

SARAH EDGE:

with a bucket in my hands eating nothing but crumpets and lemonade!

SARAH EDGE:

I couldn't have felt further away from healthy, I think if I'd tried.

SARAH EDGE:

And then I developed like pelvic girdle pain had problems with my

SARAH EDGE:

hips, so I was in quite a lot of pain.

SARAH EDGE:

So yeah, the whole, the whole thing wasn't, I didn't, yeah, I

SARAH EDGE:

didn't feel healthy I didn't feel kind of well or feel like myself.

SARAH EDGE:

I was absolutely desperate for it to be over, the pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

It was kind of like I really wanted my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

I really wanted to get to the point where to me I was like,

SARAH EDGE:

"all the struggle will be over."

SARAH EDGE:

"Once this pregnancy is over it'll all be fine."

VIKKI:

Why do we put this sort of pressure and expectation on ourselves?

VIKKI:

And I wonder how much is influenced as well by - I don't know if you bought

VIKKI:

those 'Mother and Baby' magazines- but I, I bought them while I was pregnant

VIKKI:

and I just had this - yeah, this vision of me sort of wafting through corn

VIKKI:

fields in a Laura Ashley dress and...!

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely, yeah!

SARAH EDGE:

The kind of the white sheer floral, like a hundred percent!

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely.

SARAH EDGE:

And I kind of really thought that that would all be part of my pregnancy, but

SARAH EDGE:

actually the thought of things like a photo shoot was so far away from

SARAH EDGE:

like what I wanted, it was like, "no!"

SARAH EDGE:

The thought of anybody taking photographs of me.

SARAH EDGE:

I was really sensitive about the way I looked actually, that I was really...I'd

SARAH EDGE:

kind of again- because you imagine and because we're, we're given imagery

SARAH EDGE:

of like that pregnancy is "you look like your normal self, but just

SARAH EDGE:

almost with a beach ball up your top".

SARAH EDGE:

But that's not, that isn't how it goes.

SARAH EDGE:

Actually here for me, the weight gain was kind of spread all over.

SARAH EDGE:

I felt really like puffy in my face.

SARAH EDGE:

I was so self-conscious and again, I'm not very tall and I've heard that

SARAH EDGE:

that can kind of contribute to it, but I had a really, really big bump.

SARAH EDGE:

And I suppose if you're quite short, there's only one way out for it to go.

SARAH EDGE:

There's kind of no, there's no stretch!

SARAH EDGE:

But I had people, strangers, and people I knew, constantly commenting

SARAH EDGE:

on my size which I found so difficult.

SARAH EDGE:

Um, yeah, and I felt so self-conscious and so shy in my body and you

SARAH EDGE:

know, I constantly was asked like "Oh, have you got two in there?"

SARAH EDGE:

And " Oh, you must not have long left!"

SARAH EDGE:

The first time that was said to me I was 17 weeks pregnant,

SARAH EDGE:

so it wasn't even halfway.

SARAH EDGE:

And Oh yeah, the whole thing.

SARAH EDGE:

I just remember thinking like, "God, I don't want photographs taken of me!"

SARAH EDGE:

It makes me quite sad now because there aren't many photos of me pregnant and

SARAH EDGE:

I'd love to sort of look at them now.

SARAH EDGE:

But I hated any photo that was taken of me.

SARAH EDGE:

I went into this really, really sensitive, vulnerable place that I

SARAH EDGE:

kind of now recognise as part of the process of becoming a mother that you

SARAH EDGE:

do go through or most women go through.

SARAH EDGE:

That a sort of at some point feeling quite vulnerable, feeling quite sensitive.

SARAH EDGE:

But for me that definitely started during pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

And it was this really sort of new feeling, Pregnancy isn't

SARAH EDGE:

an illness, but actually it does feel like one for some people.

SARAH EDGE:

Like people can suffer all sorts of health problems during pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

So there's all these kind of sayings or narratives that around that

SARAH EDGE:

like, you know, "You're not ill, you're just pregnant", but actually

SARAH EDGE:

your body is working extremely hard to do something that is actually

SARAH EDGE:

extraordinary when you think about it.

SARAH EDGE:

And you no wonder you're tired or don't feel your your best.

SARAH EDGE:

But it's almost the expectation that you just carry on as normal, that you work as

SARAH EDGE:

normal, that you feel the same as you did.

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, for some lucky people I know that that is the way they experience

SARAH EDGE:

pregnancy, but I would say that they're probably the exception and not the rule.

SARAH EDGE:

It's a hard slog on the body and mind, and I don't think I was

SARAH EDGE:

in any way prepared for that.

VIKKI:

I think what you are saying is incredibly relatable and I'm

VIKKI:

sure so many of my listeners will be like, "Oh my God, me too!"

VIKKI:

Because there is again, there's this silence about pregnancy if you're not

VIKKI:

enjoying it, because you are meant to feel the happiest you've ever felt

VIKKI:

in your life and glowing -your skin's meant to look radiant, your hair's meant

VIKKI:

to be glossy and all of these things.

VIKKI:

And so if you are not feeling like that, you can feel very alone and you can feel

VIKKI:

shame or even guilt for not enjoying it.

SARAH EDGE:

For me, when they talk about the glow, are they

SARAH EDGE:

meaning the sheen of sweat that's like permanently over my face?

SARAH EDGE:

Because that was like ...I was permanently boiling hot, like absolutely

SARAH EDGE:

boiling hot and I had this shared office at work and I would constantly

SARAH EDGE:

be like, "Can we open the window?"

SARAH EDGE:

And they were like looking at me like, "Are you joking?

SARAH EDGE:

It's like absolutely freezing!", because I was heavily pregnant with

SARAH EDGE:

Jack in the like autumn/ winter.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was just permanently boiling and sweating and like I felt like

SARAH EDGE:

I could smell myself all the time.

SARAH EDGE:

That heightened sense of smell.

SARAH EDGE:

So again, that kind of fed that insecurity of like, "I'm just this walking whale that

SARAH EDGE:

stinks and is like pouring with sweat!"

SARAH EDGE:

And probably the reality to other people didn't, you know, look like that.

SARAH EDGE:

It was just kind of a pregnant version of me.

SARAH EDGE:

But yeah, I felt like this walking beacon of disgustingness I suppose!

SARAH EDGE:

That I kind of thought I would look like, you know, the H+M maternity

SARAH EDGE:

models where, you know, they're not even pregnant, are they?

SARAH EDGE:

They literally have just got a cast up their dress or top!

SARAH EDGE:

But I kind of thought that I was going to look sweet and yeah, happy

SARAH EDGE:

and maternal, and it just really, really wasn't like that at all.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think, yeah, it's that 'expectations versus reality' I think can really...

SARAH EDGE:

you know, the bigger the difference between them, the more unsettled

SARAH EDGE:

you feel really, and more alone.

SARAH EDGE:

Especially if you're looking around and seeing other people

SARAH EDGE:

having these, what looks like on the surface, fabulous pregnancies.

SARAH EDGE:

But there's this narrative isn't there as well.

SARAH EDGE:

Like you need to be really grateful.

SARAH EDGE:

And it's like, well, I can be both grateful that I'm pregnant and struggling-

SARAH EDGE:

like they're not kind of mutually exclusive things, that they can co-exist.

VIKKI:

Totally.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think, yeah, it's hard and it's complex and I think it's

SARAH EDGE:

particularly complex then if you're having an experience like that, if you have

SARAH EDGE:

struggled to get pregnant and then you are dealing with a pregnancy like that,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, there's so many factors that influence our experience of pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, and I think actually right back to the beginning,

SARAH EDGE:

like even pre-conception, that's where this process starts.

SARAH EDGE:

But we kind of see that our experience of motherhood is kind of birth onwards,

SARAH EDGE:

but I think you know, pregnancy is a big part of that and I think conception

SARAH EDGE:

is a big part of that as well.

SARAH EDGE:

And you experience trying to conceive and how all of these early experiences

SARAH EDGE:

almost like set the foundation for what you experience later on.

SARAH EDGE:

And I suppose for me, like to kind of sum it up, it's almost like nothing like

SARAH EDGE:

I expected that, like those would be the words of how motherhood has been for me.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, it's been nothing like I expected it to be.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And it's not helped by social media images of people like Beyoncé with

VIKKI:

this cascade of flowers behind her, and she's looking radiant and she's

VIKKI:

probably had like a team of 70 making her look so beautiful and radiant.

VIKKI:

And I'm so sorry that you had that experience, but two things for me that

VIKKI:

really come out from what you've been saying is that it's okay if you're not

VIKKI:

enjoying parts of the pregnancy, that that is fine and that is actually quite normal.

VIKKI:

It's just that we never really talk about it.

VIKKI:

And also about being much more mindful about how I treat other women who are

VIKKI:

pregnant, you know, because I know I've been in this situation where

VIKKI:

I've, "Oh, can I feel your bump?"

VIKKI:

Or, "Oh wow, you look so neat!"

VIKKI:

And even doing something that you think might be a compliment, actually

VIKKI:

it's really, really personal to talk about anybody's body shape at any

VIKKI:

time, but especially when they're pregnant and they're feeling even more

VIKKI:

vulnerable about their changing body.

VIKKI:

I think we need to be so much more mindful of how it feels to

VIKKI:

be on the receiving end of that.

VIKKI:

And thank you for that reminder, I think that's really invaluable.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, and I think you've kind of touched on

SARAH EDGE:

something as well, haven't you?

SARAH EDGE:

It's like because we live in a very kind of diet-centric world, we kind

SARAH EDGE:

of think that like 'big is bad' and 'small is good', but actually it's

SARAH EDGE:

that there's lots of women that can feel really sensitive about the size

SARAH EDGE:

of their baby if they're very small.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, people tell you "you're not eating enough," you know, and I know

SARAH EDGE:

people that barely had any bump that had big, healthy sized babies at delivery.

SARAH EDGE:

They're almost like the size of the bump, probably doesn't...it's not that, well,

SARAH EDGE:

I don't know, but how much relationship there is between the size of the baby

SARAH EDGE:

and the size of the bump or how much weight gain that the mum has had.

SARAH EDGE:

You know what, I don't know.

SARAH EDGE:

But actually that, yeah, that you can feel sensitive about all sorts of things.

SARAH EDGE:

For me it was definitely about being called 'big' or about

SARAH EDGE:

the size of me being big.

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of probably would've loved somebody to describe me as

SARAH EDGE:

'neat' that would have been nice!

SARAH EDGE:

I mean no-one ever did!

SARAH EDGE:

But for me personally that would have been nice, but then actually you don't know

SARAH EDGE:

how people are experiencing their pregnancy.

VIKKI:

How was your birth experience, if you're okay talking about that?

VIKKI:

So difficult pregnancy, didn't feel great - did you have a set-in-stone birth plan?

VIKKI:

What was your expectation of what you wanted for your birth?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah...so it wasn't rigid.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, when I think about my birth, my birth wasn't traumatic and I don't kind

SARAH EDGE:

of contribute it to any of the anxiety and stuff that I've experienced after.

SARAH EDGE:

My ideal birth in my mind was gonna be in water.

SARAH EDGE:

For me, I kind of wanted the waterbirth, I wanted nice music, I wanted low lights.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd read all the hypnobirthing stuff.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd bought the CDs.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd done all of that.

SARAH EDGE:

And I felt yeah, I felt quite confident going into the birth but I was also

SARAH EDGE:

really kind of open-minded to if I needed drugs or needed pain relief,

SARAH EDGE:

I was more than happy to take it.

SARAH EDGE:

So I never had in my mind "I don't want any of that stuff".

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I think I had a loose birth plan that "if available

SARAH EDGE:

to me, I'll have the water".

SARAH EDGE:

But my heart wasn't kind of completely set on it.

SARAH EDGE:

And to be honest, it's a good job I didn't have my heart set on any of those things

SARAH EDGE:

because I went into labour at 36 weeks.

SARAH EDGE:

So having spent the majority of my pregnancy being absolutely desperate

SARAH EDGE:

for it to be over and kind of right at the end when I was really

SARAH EDGE:

struggling with pelvic girdle pain.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was going to this physio who was hugely helping actually.

SARAH EDGE:

The relief I had once I started seeing her was massive, but I was

SARAH EDGE:

still struggling to walk very far.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd been signed off work early.

SARAH EDGE:

I was kind of quite bored really at home.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd literally gone through every Netflix series and you know, I

SARAH EDGE:

felt really ready to have my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was actually kind of really excited when I went into labour at

SARAH EDGE:

36 weeks and had naively thought that that would do, that was late

SARAH EDGE:

enough that everything would be fine.

SARAH EDGE:

And he was fine, but I kind of hadn't considered that being

SARAH EDGE:

late pre-term is still going to potentially bring up some curve balls.

SARAH EDGE:

Nobody on my mum's side, you know, maternal side of the family has ever

SARAH EDGE:

got to 40 weeks in their pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE:

So not everybody's kind of born, you know, actually prematurely,

SARAH EDGE:

it's most of them are over 37 weeks, but are before 40 weeks.

SARAH EDGE:

So, potentially it's some kind of family thing.

SARAH EDGE:

But yeah, I wasn't actually surprised when I went into labour.

SARAH EDGE:

And I felt, you know, felt ready.

SARAH EDGE:

I had things ready, I had my hospital bag packed, so we were kind of quite

SARAH EDGE:

excited when my waters broke, I was getting into bed and I felt the pop.

SARAH EDGE:

So I actually felt like a sensation and as I stood up, it was like

SARAH EDGE:

the movies, there was just like a gush of water just went absolutely

SARAH EDGE:

everywhere, like soaked the mattress...

VIKKI:

Oh my god!

SARAH EDGE:

All over the floor.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "Oh yeah, my waters have gone!"

VIKKI:

So there was no doubt in your mind what had happened?

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely under no doubt, it was "My waters have gone!"

SARAH EDGE:

And I obviously got to the hospital and they said, "Yeah a hundred

SARAH EDGE:

percent your waters have gone!"

SARAH EDGE:

They wanted to keep me in and I said like - because I hadn't actually started any

SARAH EDGE:

contractions, I hadn't gone into labour.

SARAH EDGE:

So it's quite unusual I think for your waters to break before your labour starts.

SARAH EDGE:

And they were kind of like, "Oh, we wanna keep you in."

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "Well what I would really like is if I could go home and

SARAH EDGE:

try and get labour started naturally, to avoid induction if I can."

SARAH EDGE:

They said, "What we'll do is ..." - because they're worried

SARAH EDGE:

once your waters have gone, you're prone to infection - they said, "Can

SARAH EDGE:

you come back in 24 hours and we'll start the induction process then.

SARAH EDGE:

And by later on that evening I was in the bath and starting to get things

SARAH EDGE:

that felt a bit more like what I expected a contraction would feel like.

SARAH EDGE:

And they were getting kind of closer together.

SARAH EDGE:

I still wasn't in any kind of pain or anything that I was, you know,

SARAH EDGE:

felt like I couldn't manage.

SARAH EDGE:

When I got back into hospital they examined me and they said, "Yeah,

SARAH EDGE:

you're three to four centimeters, so we'll kind of wait for a space

SARAH EDGE:

on Delivery and get you down."

SARAH EDGE:

I thought, "Gosh!"

SARAH EDGE:

Like, "this is amazing!

SARAH EDGE:

This is fine!

SARAH EDGE:

I can definitely do this!"

SARAH EDGE:

And

SARAH EDGE:

I can remember I really, really did wanna go in the water.

SARAH EDGE:

And they were like, "We can't let you go in the water because your waters have

SARAH EDGE:

gone and you're having a premature baby.

SARAH EDGE:

I know you are kind of late preterm and the baby's measuring big, but

SARAH EDGE:

you're still having a premature baby.

SARAH EDGE:

You do need to be now consultant-led and on a Delivery Suite and we

SARAH EDGE:

don't have birth pools there."

SARAH EDGE:

But they said, "I tell you what", they were really lovely these

SARAH EDGE:

midwives on the Antenatal Ward.

SARAH EDGE:

They said, "Shall we run you a bath?"

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "Yes, I' d feel really happy in the bath."

SARAH EDGE:

And they got me some gas and air, because things were starting to kind

SARAH EDGE:

of ramp up a bit, and left me in the bath for ages with this gas and air.

SARAH EDGE:

And I just kept topping the hot water up and I was really happy, I was kind

SARAH EDGE:

of really happy in that bathroom.

SARAH EDGE:

I sort of feel like, yeah, the moment I was made to leave that bathroom was

SARAH EDGE:

when things definitely didn't go wrong, but I was really happy in that bathroom

SARAH EDGE:

and I feel like had I been left in there I probably could have delivered my

SARAH EDGE:

baby in there, which they felt as well because I remember hearing them on the

SARAH EDGE:

phone saying like, "She's gonna end up having this baby in this bathroom,

SARAH EDGE:

please can you get a room on Delivery?

SARAH EDGE:

We can hear that it's getting closer."

SARAH EDGE:

And there was this weird moment when my husband went to the toilet and I had

SARAH EDGE:

this real urge to get out of the bath and lock the door and get back in and just

SARAH EDGE:

... VIKKI: wow

SARAH EDGE:

...be on my own.

SARAH EDGE:

And I can remember them like knocking on the door, being like,

SARAH EDGE:

"Sarah, can you let us in now?"

SARAH EDGE:

Really quite like, "Open the door now!"

SARAH EDGE:

But I remember being like, "No!"

SARAH EDGE:

I'm actually really kind of happy in this dark space on my own.

SARAH EDGE:

Which felt, yeah, kind of quite primal.

SARAH EDGE:

This sort of primal urge to be alone in this kind of safe, enclosed space.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think, you know, had I been left I probably would've

SARAH EDGE:

delivered my baby in there.

SARAH EDGE:

But I did eventually open the door.

SARAH EDGE:

I suppose the rational side of my brain was like, they're kind of shouting at

SARAH EDGE:

me now from the other side of the door.

SARAH EDGE:

And Nick was like, "Sarah, you need to open the door now!"

SARAH EDGE:

So I did and they got a room for me on Delivery and we went down.

SARAH EDGE:

And I remember them saying to me like, " Can you sit down in this wheelchair?"

SARAH EDGE:

And I'm thinking like "No!"

SARAH EDGE:

Like "I feel like a baby's hanging out of me!"

SARAH EDGE:

It felt like his head was kind of right in between my legs.

SARAH EDGE:

I was like "There's no way I can sit down!"

VIKKI:

I can't think of anything worse.

VIKKI:

I remember being - during my labour - sort of being made to lie down on my back

VIKKI:

on the bed, and that just felt like the last thing that I wanted to be doing.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, it just felt so unnatural.

SARAH EDGE:

And I said to them, "I can get in the wheelchair if you let me go on my knees".

SARAH EDGE:

And they were like, "There is no way on earth we are wheeling you through the

SARAH EDGE:

hospital on your knees in a wheelchair".

SARAH EDGE:

So I said, "Well what's the alternative then?"

SARAH EDGE:

And they said, "Well, for you to walk".

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "Oh no I can do that.

SARAH EDGE:

I'll walk".

SARAH EDGE:

So every, you know, minute or so, I was like standing up against the

SARAH EDGE:

wall, having these contractions.

SARAH EDGE:

Why the Antenatal Ward was so far away from the Delivery Suite is beyond me.

SARAH EDGE:

It probably wasn't even that far.

SARAH EDGE:

But in memory it feels like I trekked the entire length of a huge hospital!

SARAH EDGE:

We got to Delivery and they examined me again and they said

SARAH EDGE:

"You're seven centimetres."

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "Oh, I am starting to kind of struggle now.

SARAH EDGE:

This is feeling hard."

SARAH EDGE:

And they said to me, "Your contractions aren't very strong

SARAH EDGE:

and they're also not very regular."

SARAH EDGE:

You know, when people talk about them kind of coming every couple of minutes

SARAH EDGE:

and lasting a certain amount of time, that wasn't really happening for me.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was having kind of quite long ones, but then having a huge break

SARAH EDGE:

and then having a very small one.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was showing signs of I was developing an infection or had a

SARAH EDGE:

fever, that my contractions weren't gonna be strong enough for the kind

SARAH EDGE:

of pushing bit of delivering the baby.

SARAH EDGE:

So their suggestion to me was, oxytocin, so the induction drip, even

SARAH EDGE:

though I was already in labour - to kind of regulate and speed up

SARAH EDGE:

the delivery process basically.

SARAH EDGE:

And also at the same time to give me an epidural, which I was kind of like,

SARAH EDGE:

"Yeah, I feel like I want that now."

SARAH EDGE:

And that was amazing actually.

SARAH EDGE:

They put the epidural in and I had what was called a working epidural.

SARAH EDGE:

So I could still feel my legs, I could still feel my contractions,

SARAH EDGE:

I just wasn't in any pain.

SARAH EDGE:

I could feel all of the pressure.

SARAH EDGE:

I just couldn't feel...yeah, it just didn't hurt.

SARAH EDGE:

And I, I had a little nap.

SARAH EDGE:

I was kind of chatting with the midwives and with Nick and yeah, really

SARAH EDGE:

excited about delivering my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

I had a nap.

SARAH EDGE:

And then they woke me up and they said, "You have got to 10

SARAH EDGE:

centimetres, it's time to push."

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like

SARAH EDGE:

"Okay then!"

SARAH EDGE:

Jack was born.

SARAH EDGE:

and I remember them saying he was like the biggest premature baby they'd ever seen!

SARAH EDGE:

Everything felt really, yeah really good.

SARAH EDGE:

And they delivered him, they put him on my chest.

SARAH EDGE:

We were kind of blown away.

SARAH EDGE:

I had that rush of love that people talk about, that actually is quite rare from my

SARAH EDGE:

experience as a perinatal psychotherapist.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually it's more common to kind of feel nothing or

SARAH EDGE:

indifferent or even kind of disgust.

SARAH EDGE:

And I have had that experience too with my second.

SARAH EDGE:

But with Jack I did have, I think because probably as well my delivery was so,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, quite straightforward and unproblematic and not traumatic that,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, I think that contributed to it being this really positive experience.

SARAH EDGE:

So him actually being born was incredibly, yeah, incredibly joyful.

SARAH EDGE:

And we didn't know we were having a boy, so it was really

SARAH EDGE:

exciting for them to tell us.

SARAH EDGE:

And, you know, we chose a name and it was all very lovely, but it kind

SARAH EDGE:

of instantly took a bit of a turn.

SARAH EDGE:

Like I kind of started vomiting really badly.

SARAH EDGE:

And I couldn't hold him because I was just constantly being sick, which

SARAH EDGE:

was just horrible as well when you've kind of had a pregnancy full of that.

SARAH EDGE:

and I then suffered a postpartum haemorrhage.

SARAH EDGE:

Um, yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

Which,

VIKKI:

Oh my goodness.

SARAH EDGE:

I don't really remember an awful lot to be

SARAH EDGE:

honest, I don't really remember it.

SARAH EDGE:

I know, you know, they were telling me and they were saying I was kind

SARAH EDGE:

of borderline blood transfusion.

SARAH EDGE:

They kept asking me kind of, you know, how I was.

SARAH EDGE:

And I'd suffered a second degree tear that was sort of being stitched up and stuff.

SARAH EDGE:

In my mind it was all happening at the same time, but I'm guessing they weren't

SARAH EDGE:

stitching whilst I was haemorrhaging..

SARAH EDGE:

That sounds impossible ! But also I had this experience of kind of really shaking.

SARAH EDGE:

So I actually thought I was having a seizure.

SARAH EDGE:

At one point I thought I was going to fall off the bed I was shaking so hard.

SARAH EDGE:

And I said, "Am I having a seizure?"

SARAH EDGE:

And they were like, "No, your body's gone into shock, you know, you are okay".

SARAH EDGE:

And I was kind of reassured by that, but I do remember thinking like,

SARAH EDGE:

this doesn't feel like kind of the shaking you get when you're in a shock.

SARAH EDGE:

I was kind of violently moving, and I'm absolutely convinced I was having

SARAH EDGE:

some sort of weird conscious seizure.

SARAH EDGE:

But I think it just kind of shows the enormity of what your body's

SARAH EDGE:

gone through and how actually huge of a process giving birth is.

SARAH EDGE:

And it's not only an emotional adjustment, it's kind of a physical one too.

SARAH EDGE:

My body lost a lot of blood, I'd just delivered a baby.

SARAH EDGE:

It was all a bit of a shock.

SARAH EDGE:

My son was really, was really healthy and was doing really well.

SARAH EDGE:

Oh he was just perfect.

SARAH EDGE:

I just loved him.

SARAH EDGE:

He was gorgeous and they said, you know, "Do you want to try and feed him?"

SARAH EDGE:

And I would say that was probably the moment that it all started to

SARAH EDGE:

get difficult for me and for us.

SARAH EDGE:

I put him to the breast and, you know, I'd never breasted a baby before.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't know what it would, what it would feel like, you know?

SARAH EDGE:

Now I know he wasn't feeding, and they were saying, you

SARAH EDGE:

know, his latch wasn't great.

SARAH EDGE:

But he was transferring no milk, there was definitely no milk coming out.

SARAH EDGE:

I was producing milk and it was kind of leaking out of me.

SARAH EDGE:

And so he was probably, you know, getting a taste, but he wasn't

SARAH EDGE:

actually transferring milk.

SARAH EDGE:

But I didn't really know that.

SARAH EDGE:

Now I've breastfed my daughter.

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of know that there is a, there's a particular feeling to - as

SARAH EDGE:

they latch and the transfer of milk - that you actually feel that

SARAH EDGE:

happening and it's quite a significant or like kind of powerful feeling,

SARAH EDGE:

whereas this definitely wasn't that.

SARAH EDGE:

So it was definitely nothing happening.

SARAH EDGE:

And it's quite common that babies born sort of early struggle with,

SARAH EDGE:

because it takes a lot of energy to feed, which clearly he didn't have.

SARAH EDGE:

And he started to kind of experience a drop in blood sugars and we were

SARAH EDGE:

transferred to the Postnatal Ward.

SARAH EDGE:

One because obviously I'd had this haemorrhage, but they obviously

SARAH EDGE:

knew my baby was going to have to stay in because he was born early.

SARAH EDGE:

So we were put under what was called a Transitional Care Team.

SARAH EDGE:

So we had kind of doctors from NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) came

SARAH EDGE:

to visit us on the Postnatal Ward.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was given a private room because we were gonna be having

SARAH EDGE:

doctors kind of coming in and out quite a lot which again was really

SARAH EDGE:

lovely and I was so grateful for.

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of really didn't want to go onto a ward.

SARAH EDGE:

I had this real thing about it of being like, "I don't really want

SARAH EDGE:

to be around lots of other people."

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of again just wanted to be alone with my partner and my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

So we went onto the Postnatal Ward and we had lots of kind of teams

SARAH EDGE:

and stuff in and out checking Jack.

SARAH EDGE:

And we were also getting lots of help with feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

And they

SARAH EDGE:

were concerned basically he wasn't transferring enough milk, his

SARAH EDGE:

blood sugars were not improving.

SARAH EDGE:

They were very low and he had jaundice, quite severe jaundice,

SARAH EDGE:

so he would need some treatment.

SARAH EDGE:

So he started having phototherapy and I was advised to start what's called

SARAH EDGE:

triple feeding, because I was really clear that I wanted to breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE:

I had never, ever considered any other way of feeding my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think this is kind of where you know, not that I went wrong, but I

SARAH EDGE:

think another example of my kind of naivety that I genuinely thought that

SARAH EDGE:

people that used formula had kind of made this really conscious choice

SARAH EDGE:

that that's what they wanted to do.

SARAH EDGE:

And, you know, for whatever reason and in my mind I was like,

SARAH EDGE:

"Well, I don't want to, I want to breastfeed, so that's what I will do."

SARAH EDGE:

I don't think at any point had I imagined that there was this kind of huge number

SARAH EDGE:

of women that had set out to breastfeed and had struggled to or had had problems

SARAH EDGE:

with that were now formula feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

It kind of in my mind was like, "Well, they chose to."

SARAH EDGE:

Now, you know, doing the work that I do you think, "God, how did I think that?"

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't know that you could have problems breastfeeding.

SARAH EDGE:

I know that sounds just absolutely kind of just sounds crazy, but I just thought

SARAH EDGE:

that like, it might be a bit painful.

SARAH EDGE:

Or, you know, a bit time consuming or getting up in the night but genuinely

SARAH EDGE:

thought if you want to breastfeed, you put your baby to the breast and they feed.

SARAH EDGE:

That was, you know how I kind of thought it happened and never had

SARAH EDGE:

considered other ways of feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

Certainly never heard of anything like triple feeding, which basically

SARAH EDGE:

is, I was, um, pumping milk because his latch wasn't great.

SARAH EDGE:

And then putting the milk into a bottle and then he was being kind of syringe

SARAH EDGE:

fed and cup fed by an infant feeding team, who were kind of trying to

SARAH EDGE:

make sure he was getting enough milk.

SARAH EDGE:

But I found that really hard to sit and watch somebody else feeding my baby

SARAH EDGE:

that it felt, it felt so unnatural.

SARAH EDGE:

Still to this day, I struggle with hearing the sound of a breast pump.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think this is when the kind of, you know, the problems for me

SARAH EDGE:

and my mental health sort of started.

SARAH EDGE:

But we started this pumping and triple feeding and I was advised to set alarms,

SARAH EDGE:

because premature babies can be very sleepy so they can sleep for longer

SARAH EDGE:

periods and they need to be fed more frequently because of their blood sugars.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was setting alarms for every 90 minutes to make sure

SARAH EDGE:

he was fed every two hours.

SARAH EDGE:

So I'd have to pump.

SARAH EDGE:

You know I had my husband with me and he was doing all of the washing

SARAH EDGE:

and sterilising and everything that he could do, but it still was this

SARAH EDGE:

really long process that was just relentless and really, really hard.

SARAH EDGE:

So we were in hospital for about five days.

SARAH EDGE:

He was having his treatment for jaundice.

SARAH EDGE:

He went just below the kind of treatment line, and they said to

SARAH EDGE:

me "We think that you can go home".

SARAH EDGE:

They did say to me "We think it's very likely that he is going to

SARAH EDGE:

rebound and need to come back in for more jaundice treatment.

SARAH EDGE:

But you are now well enough to go home and we think that you might get two days,

SARAH EDGE:

three days, at home with your baby".

SARAH EDGE:

I felt so nervous about the thought of that.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't really want to go home.

SARAH EDGE:

The hospital for me felt like this kind of...

SARAH EDGE:

yeah, it felt like a safe place.

SARAH EDGE:

Not necessarily for me, but certainly for my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

And it felt weird to me that how can one minute him be having all of this treatment

SARAH EDGE:

- and he was sleeping with a breathing monitor and things on, because he'd been

SARAH EDGE:

born early to then having nothing.

SARAH EDGE:

To then being in a normal cot or...

SARAH EDGE:

that just felt, yeah, it felt so weird to go from all of the wires and the

SARAH EDGE:

lights and, you know, he wasn't in full kind of NICU incubator or anything like

SARAH EDGE:

that, but he still had monitors and things measuring heart rate and, you

SARAH EDGE:

know, regular checks and stuff like that.

VIKKI:

Did you feel stressed about the responsibility?

SARAH EDGE:

Yes.

SARAH EDGE:

Overwhelmed.

SARAH EDGE:

Overwhelmed by the responsibility.

SARAH EDGE:

Like it felt like this...

SARAH EDGE:

yeah, I think actually, I think, yeah, responsibility is probably the word

SARAH EDGE:

that really fits what it felt like, just this overwhelming like, "Oh my

SARAH EDGE:

God, like how am I ever gonna sleep?"

SARAH EDGE:

because I was constantly waking in the hospital, to check.

SARAH EDGE:

And I always thought that he wasn't gonna be breathing.

SARAH EDGE:

So I had this huge fear of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome),

SARAH EDGE:

of cot death, like just massive.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think that was compounded by the fact that there is a family history.

SARAH EDGE:

So my mum had a brother who died as a

SARAH EDGE:

baby and it's kind of has, yeah, this family legacy of absolute fear

SARAH EDGE:

... VIKKI: I'm so sorry.

SARAH EDGE:

...around sleep and breathing, which really, you know, given that Jack

SARAH EDGE:

was born with so many risk factors, like problems feeding, being born

SARAH EDGE:

early, being male, really was hard.

SARAH EDGE:

So we went home.

SARAH EDGE:

We didn't get two to three days.

SARAH EDGE:

We got about 12 hours and then we ended up back in A+E (Accident + Emergency).

SARAH EDGE:

Jack had gone really orange, really floppy, he wasn't responsive.

SARAH EDGE:

Not unresponsive as in unconscious, but kind of when babies have jaundice

SARAH EDGE:

that's really quite severe they are very sleepy, lethargic, and, yeah floppy.

SARAH EDGE:

Like, you know, if you lifted his arm up it would drop.

SARAH EDGE:

Terrifying.

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely terrifying.

SARAH EDGE:

We'd gone home and, you know, all these things here that kind of happened - our

SARAH EDGE:

heating wasn't working and it was December and it was freezing in our house.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was just like, going about to have you what now I'd

SARAH EDGE:

recognise as a panic attack.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was about to have some sort of kind of panic episode or anxiety attack and I

SARAH EDGE:

was like, "I can't stay in this house."

SARAH EDGE:

So we went over to my mother-in-laws, so that they could take care

SARAH EDGE:

of us really while we were kind of adjusting to being parents.

SARAH EDGE:

And she'd had my husband and he'd been born early and he'd had severe jaundice.

SARAH EDGE:

So she kind of recognised actually that, "Yeah, this doesn't look right."

SARAH EDGE:

So we went back to A+E (Accident + Emergency).

SARAH EDGE:

They obviously immediately admitted us onto the Children's Ward.

SARAH EDGE:

So we were on the Children's Ward and then we were there for over a week,

SARAH EDGE:

because it was like two weeks in hospital basically from the beginning of my labour

SARAH EDGE:

to the end with that brief gap where we were home or we were at her house.

SARAH EDGE:

And that's I think, when the anxiety really, really began to ramp up for me.

SARAH EDGE:

So I just didn't feel like myself at all.

SARAH EDGE:

I remember thinking like, "There's something wrong with me.

SARAH EDGE:

I don't feel normal."

SARAH EDGE:

That was the kind of...

SARAH EDGE:

just sort of existing in this state of perpetual fear.

SARAH EDGE:

I couldn't sleep.

SARAH EDGE:

I was so restless.

SARAH EDGE:

Jack needed to be under this, these lamps he was having double phototherapy,

SARAH EDGE:

so he was lying on kind of one...

SARAH EDGE:

they're like little sunbeds basically.

SARAH EDGE:

It was like kind of lying on a sunbed with a sunbed on top of him.

SARAH EDGE:

And obviously it helps clear their jaundice.

SARAH EDGE:

And I just couldn't leave him in there because I kept

SARAH EDGE:

thinking like "He's on his own.

SARAH EDGE:

He's going to need to be held by his mum".

SARAH EDGE:

And obviously I'd read all of this stuff around hypnobirthing

SARAH EDGE:

and attachment and skin-to-skin.

SARAH EDGE:

So this felt so alien that like, I can't leave him in this

SARAH EDGE:

sort of incubator on his own.

SARAH EDGE:

And he wasn't distressed, he barely ever cried.

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, he didn't, I didn't really hear him cry until he was probably a month old.

SARAH EDGE:

And every time they came in I was holding him and they'd be like, "Oh,

SARAH EDGE:

we know that you really wanna hold him, but he needs some time in there

SARAH EDGE:

to kind of clear the jaundice."

SARAH EDGE:

And I was just going out of my mind.

SARAH EDGE:

So kind of every 90 minutes I was having so much help with feeding - I

SARAH EDGE:

was so lucky, because I know that that isn't the case for so many

SARAH EDGE:

women that are trying to breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE:

But I had this kind of specialist infant feeding team with me at every single feed.

SARAH EDGE:

So we were trying to attach him to the breast and trying nipple shields.

SARAH EDGE:

Then eventually kind of would revert back to the syringe or this cup

SARAH EDGE:

feeding, and eventually then on to bottle feeding him my breast milk.

SARAH EDGE:

And this deterioration in my mental health was rapid and kind of quick

SARAH EDGE:

onset and I really wasn't well.

SARAH EDGE:

And my husband phoned my mum and said - she'd been to visit us while

SARAH EDGE:

we're on the postnatal ward to see the baby and see how I was and all of that.

SARAH EDGE:

But rang her and said, you're gonna need to come.

SARAH EDGE:

Like, I'm really, really worried about Sarah.

SARAH EDGE:

It's so difficult cause it's so hard to remember properly as well.

SARAH EDGE:

And it just feels like this huge blur.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was terrified about my husband leaving me.

SARAH EDGE:

And they were really good to me.

SARAH EDGE:

They brought in a camp bed so that he chould stay.

SARAH EDGE:

So he was there.

SARAH EDGE:

I had my own bed as well on the Children's Ward.

SARAH EDGE:

But the breastfeeding stuff kind of really...

SARAH EDGE:

yeah, started to become very difficult.

SARAH EDGE:

So the sound of the pump was becoming incredibly triggering for me.

SARAH EDGE:

I was getting really upset and really kind of feeling quite agitated

SARAH EDGE:

and angry when I was on the pump.

SARAH EDGE:

And when you'd go out in the morning to, because I was being kind of fed by

SARAH EDGE:

the Children's Ward, because they, they would say like, you know, "If you're

SARAH EDGE:

a breastfeeding mum, we feed you."

SARAH EDGE:

If you are, if you're not, basically you have to find your own food.

SARAH EDGE:

God, if I think about that now, I think God, how would I have ever managed to

SARAH EDGE:

support my own food when I was in this kind of state of just extreme anxiety.

SARAH EDGE:

And yeah, I was just having such a hard time with it all and it hadn't

SARAH EDGE:

even occurred to me until this consultant kind of came to see us and

SARAH EDGE:

was really concerned about Jack's blood sugars and his jaundice not clearing.

SARAH EDGE:

And suggested that whilst I also fed my pumped breast milk to him, that

SARAH EDGE:

also that he has to have some formula milk to help clear his blood sugars.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was like, "Oh!

SARAH EDGE:

Is that a thing?".

SARAH EDGE:

It's like almost like I didn't even know formula was a thing.

SARAH EDGE:

It was so odd.

SARAH EDGE:

It was like, "Oh yeah, there is an alternative way to feed a baby".

SARAH EDGE:

And as soon as he began to have that formula milk, we

SARAH EDGE:

just started to turn a corner.

SARAH EDGE:

Like he became more alert, his blood sugar started clearing quickly.

SARAH EDGE:

And he just seemed so much healthier and yeah, like I kind

SARAH EDGE:

of started to feel better as well.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was still really torn with what I would do about the breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE:

because, you know, in my mind it was like that was what was best for my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

I don't think that now, but at the time I was really like, "You have

SARAH EDGE:

to breastfeed your children."

VIKKI:

Clearly there are huge arguments for why, you know, if you

VIKKI:

can do it, why it's a great thing.

VIKKI:

But for a lot of women it's really hard or really painful or...

SARAH EDGE:

It's how complex it is.

SARAH EDGE:

If we're like comparing, you know, purely milk on milk, and that's

SARAH EDGE:

when somebody's, you know, got enough in the first place that like,

SARAH EDGE:

yeah, it's more straightforward.

SARAH EDGE:

But actually when you begin to start to incorporate factors like the mother's

SARAH EDGE:

mental health and wellbeing, you know, and the situation Jack was in,

SARAH EDGE:

but like my milk wasn't clearing his jaundice, , you know, potentially it

SARAH EDGE:

would eventually, I don't know, do I?

SARAH EDGE:

But it becomes more complex than like...

SARAH EDGE:

I absolutely can't bear the 'breast is best' kind of message.

SARAH EDGE:

It's just so deductive and harmful.

SARAH EDGE:

I was really, really well looked after, on the Postnatal Ward and on

SARAH EDGE:

the Children's Ward, but it was quite often said to me, you know, like, "Oh

SARAH EDGE:

we look after our breastfeeding mums."

SARAH EDGE:

Which then the almost opposite messages to that is "We don't look

SARAH EDGE:

after our formula feeding mums."

SARAH EDGE:

So it was almost like I was treated as so special and we had so much help and

SARAH EDGE:

support because of the way I was feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was struggling so much with it and I was just so desperate by that

SARAH EDGE:

point to kind of, well, I was torn.

SARAH EDGE:

I wanted to get home, but also I was just like, "I don't know how I'm going to go

SARAH EDGE:

home and continue to pump like this and feed like this" because they were worried

SARAH EDGE:

about this kind of nipple confusion.

SARAH EDGE:

So we're still doing all of this cup feeding, which I found

SARAH EDGE:

incredibly stressful as well.

SARAH EDGE:

Where basically you are literally using a cup and kind of very gently

SARAH EDGE:

sort of tipping it into baby's mouth.

SARAH EDGE:

So it takes, you know, it takes

SARAH EDGE:

forever, it takes ages!

VIKKI:

Were you still on a 90 minute cycle?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah!

SARAH EDGE:

This whole time!

VIKKI:

Wow!

VIKKI:

My God.

VIKKI:

And that's, you know, it's hard enough even when you're getting help, but

VIKKI:

God, if you are on your own and you are going through that - so you are

VIKKI:

not getting any sleep, or if you are, it's like half an hour here or there.

SARAH EDGE:

Chronically sleep deprived and you know that a hundred

SARAH EDGE:

percent will have contributed.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, I've heard since that now there are kind of recommendations and

SARAH EDGE:

regulations on if you are advising triple feeding to a mum, to a parent,

SARAH EDGE:

that it's for like two or three days.

SARAH EDGE:

It's not for 10 days, you know, two weeks.

SARAH EDGE:

I was like kind of a wreck.

SARAH EDGE:

Like I can't even remember how I felt particularly and haven't got

SARAH EDGE:

any kind of clear concrete memories.

SARAH EDGE:

But I was just not right.

SARAH EDGE:

I was restless, I was agitated, I was pacing about, I was just in

SARAH EDGE:

kind of ... probably what at that time was the worst state my mental

SARAH EDGE:

health had maybe ever been in.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was starting to have suicidal thoughts.

SARAH EDGE:

I was starting to think, you know, actually, "if I can't feed my baby,

SARAH EDGE:

almost like what's the point of me?

SARAH EDGE:

Well, that's my only role and if I can't fulfill that, then he

SARAH EDGE:

literally doesn't need me".

SARAH EDGE:

Like "anybody could feed him a bottle, anybody can feed him

SARAH EDGE:

formula, he doesn't need me".

SARAH EDGE:

And so much of my worth as a mum was wrapped up in this breastfeeding.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was just in a state.

SARAH EDGE:

I was just in this absolute horrendous ... the anxiety is like just nothing

SARAH EDGE:

on earth I've ever experienced.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was really convinced that I was gonna kind of almost

SARAH EDGE:

teeter over some sort of edge.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah I felt like I was gonna have some kind of psychotic

SARAH EDGE:

episode or lose grip on reality.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, it was just awful.

SARAH EDGE:

It just felt terrible.

SARAH EDGE:

And my mother-in-law kind of saw me in this state and she basically

SARAH EDGE:

said she went, "Enough is enough, start feeding him formula".

SARAH EDGE:

And it was like a light went on in my mind of like, "Oh my God, that's an option!"

SARAH EDGE:

Like it hadn't even occurred to me that I could exclusively feed him formula and

SARAH EDGE:

that could be my choice and that could be what was best for us as a family.

SARAH EDGE:

And it was this instant, almost like, "Oh, okay!"

SARAH EDGE:

And then we started doing that and obviously I could sleep because

SARAH EDGE:

my husband could do a feed.

SARAH EDGE:

His jaundice kind of cleared really quickly.

SARAH EDGE:

His blood sugars improved and we were discharged home.

SARAH EDGE:

And on the way out of the hospital, this lady from the infant feeding

SARAH EDGE:

team that had been so gorgeous to me, saw me when we were leaving

SARAH EDGE:

and she said "How are you doing?

SARAH EDGE:

How are you?

SARAH EDGE:

Good to see that you're going home".

SARAH EDGE:

I was kind of embarrassed to tell her, but I was like, "We've

SARAH EDGE:

decided to feed him formula".

SARAH EDGE:

And I'll never forget this - she said to me like, "Oh, thank goodness,

SARAH EDGE:

that baby was never gonna latch."

VIKKI:

What?!

SARAH EDGE:

I looked at at her her and was like, "What?!!"

SARAH EDGE:

So people have just watched me for two weeks - not on the verge of suicide, but

SARAH EDGE:

certainly having suicidal thoughts and being on the verge of a breakdown most

SARAH EDGE:

definitely - have watched me struggle for weeks and nobody actually thought I

SARAH EDGE:

was ever gonna be able to feed my baby.

SARAH EDGE:

Like, I just couldn't believe it!

SARAH EDGE:

I was just sort of like looking at her like one, that was incredibly kind

SARAH EDGE:

of validating that yes, I sort of had to make this choice, but also God,

SARAH EDGE:

I could have made it so much earlier!

SARAH EDGE:

All that you know, not physical pain, but excruciating kind of

SARAH EDGE:

emotional and psychological pain.

SARAH EDGE:

But actually, you know, in saying that, I'm almost glad that I have experienced

SARAH EDGE:

that because it's kind of, you know, it's influenced my career choices and

SARAH EDGE:

what I feel really passionate about, but also like, you know, it's made

SARAH EDGE:

me a better therapist definitely, but it's made me a much better person.

SARAH EDGE:

And you know now I have a much better understanding of the struggles that

SARAH EDGE:

women go through trying to feed and how actually breastfeeding trauma

SARAH EDGE:

and breastfeeding kind of shame...

SARAH EDGE:

and, you know, we call it guilt, but it's not guilt because guilt

SARAH EDGE:

implies you've done something wrong.

SARAH EDGE:

It's, it's a shame we're talking about.

SARAH EDGE:

It contributes to so much trauma but it's not recognised trauma.

SARAH EDGE:

Like with breastfeeding, it's actually really difficult for women

SARAH EDGE:

to get support or acknowledgement that what they've been through was traumatic.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, and I work with, with so many women that have had traumatic

SARAH EDGE:

breastfeeding experiences that really, really are truly traumatic.

SARAH EDGE:

And feeding is, you know, essential for human life.

SARAH EDGE:

So if that's threatened or that's difficult, no wonder it

SARAH EDGE:

results in a trauma response.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually it's really difficult and it's so complex because it's, you

SARAH EDGE:

know, it's about feeding your baby, but there's also all of these societal

SARAH EDGE:

expectations and narratives and stigma attached to feeding that makes it

SARAH EDGE:

incredibly difficult - that we almost have in our mind that breastfeeding is what

SARAH EDGE:

makes a "good mum" and a healthy baby.

SARAH EDGE:

So when it doesn't go right, it's so hard.

SARAH EDGE:

I kind of now wouldn't swap it.

SARAH EDGE:

So If I could go back and have Jack latch and attach to my

SARAH EDGE:

breast and breastfeed, I wouldn't.

SARAH EDGE:

Because I would still have those really closed minded,

SARAH EDGE:

rigid views on breastfeeding and formula feeding being choice.

SARAH EDGE:

And I'm glad I don't have that, I'm glad of my experience.

SARAH EDGE:

I know I've kind of made it sound like almost as I left the hospital and

SARAH EDGE:

started formula feeding I was better because I wasn't, it was a process.

SARAH EDGE:

Like the anxiety was around for a long, long time.

SARAH EDGE:

And I really struggled feeding in public.

SARAH EDGE:

So I know, I know people talk about struggling with breastfeeding in public

SARAH EDGE:

and feeling, you know, embarrassed or shy about getting their boobs out.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, for me, God, I'd have so happily got both of my boobs out rather

SARAH EDGE:

than have got a, a bottle of formula out, like, oh, the shame that I would feel.

SARAH EDGE:

And this was so defensive, I was almost like ready and primed for a fight.

SARAH EDGE:

I was almost like waiting for somebody to say something or to challenge me.

SARAH EDGE:

Like they, they never did.

SARAH EDGE:

In fact, a lot of people would kind of say to me like, "Oh I formula

SARAH EDGE:

fed my children and you know, they're really healthy adults now."

SARAH EDGE:

Or "They're really clever" or would say things to kind of reassure

SARAH EDGE:

me, which was really lovely.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, maybe they were picking up on this uncomfortableness that I had

SARAH EDGE:

but I didn't want anybody to know how I was feeding because it felt like it

SARAH EDGE:

didn't align with sort of my values.

SARAH EDGE:

It was almost like, as somebody that would describe myself as feminist,

SARAH EDGE:

it was almost like a feminist way of feeding to me was to breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE:

It was so hard and it was this really long process that kind

SARAH EDGE:

of, there were incremental points where it began to improve.

SARAH EDGE:

So one of them was around six months when he started to wean on to food and

SARAH EDGE:

so was relying less heavily on milk.

SARAH EDGE:

And then again at one when he moved off the boxes of baby formula.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, there was these kind of incremental points that it's began to improve

SARAH EDGE:

and I began to feel better about it.

SARAH EDGE:

And writing hugely helped me.

VIKKI:

Just that whole judgment.

VIKKI:

And It seems like you were very self judging?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

And I'm very sensitive to judgment anyway as a person, so

SARAH EDGE:

I'm very sensitive to anything I perceive as criticism or judgment.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think this kind of like hugely triggered that already existing

SARAH EDGE:

thing inside me, but it really...

SARAH EDGE:

it kind of hooked onto it and it, you know, really went for it like it was...

SARAH EDGE:

it was massive for ages, for me.

SARAH EDGE:

I still, it still is this huge part of my life that actually breastfeeding...

SARAH EDGE:

um, you know, it's an actual joke with my friends that all I

SARAH EDGE:

do is bang on about breastfeeding!

VIKKI:

I feel like crying, just hearing you talk and, you know, I definitely

VIKKI:

struggled with breastfeeding trauma and guilt and shame and because Stanley

VIKKI:

was ...he wasn't premature, he was just term, but he was tiny (he was 5 pounds 11

VIKKI:

ounces), and the pressure I was put under.

VIKKI:

And again, that thing of what you were saying about Jack sort

VIKKI:

of, being sleepy, so I guess Stan was also sort of sleeping through.

VIKKI:

So one midwife was saying, "Don't wake a sleeping baby!"

VIKKI:

And then the other was like, "What do you mean you didn't

VIKKI:

feed them every two hours?!!"

VIKKI:

So you were damned whatever you did, it was the wrong thing!

VIKKI:

But...

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

...I just want to say for any woman who is going through that

VIKKI:

experience right now, who's maybe struggling with breastfeeding or feeling

VIKKI:

shame and even disgust that they're not able to feed their baby naturally.

VIKKI:

Please my God, don't you know!

VIKKI:

And, certainly in my postnatal depression support group, 90%

VIKKI:

of us had difficulties feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE:

It's this huge part of the postpartum experience and it's like, if, if things

SARAH EDGE:

go wrong, then it's incredibly difficult.

SARAH EDGE:

Because like what I was saying before, it's just this kind of ... It's absolutely

SARAH EDGE:

fundamental you need to feed your baby.

SARAH EDGE:

But it's so complex because I know I'm really aware that I'm making it sound

SARAH EDGE:

like the answer to breastfeeding trauma or to difficulties is to switch to

SARAH EDGE:

formula and that isn't what I'm saying.

SARAH EDGE:

I think for me, I was absolutely desperate for permission to stop.

SARAH EDGE:

I wasn't consciously aware of that, but as soon as I got it, I was like, "Oh my God!"

SARAH EDGE:

Like the relief, you know, was this instant feeling of "Oh my God, thank you,

SARAH EDGE:

somebody has given me permission to stop."

SARAH EDGE:

But I think it's really important to actually figure out which it

SARAH EDGE:

is - is it support to carry on, or is it permission to stop?

SARAH EDGE:

And they might change, you know, they might...

SARAH EDGE:

It might be support to carry on for a while and then be permission

SARAH EDGE:

to stop or, permission to combi or, you know, whatever it is.

SARAH EDGE:

It's about finding what's right for you and your family.

SARAH EDGE:

Because, you know, actually I work with, with women with all sorts of

SARAH EDGE:

different individual experiences and for some actually, it's really

SARAH EDGE:

hard when they really want to carry on and everybody around them's

SARAH EDGE:

telling them to just move to formula.

SARAH EDGE:

Kind of completely invalidating and not acknowledging their desire to

SARAH EDGE:

and how important it is to them.

SARAH EDGE:

So it's not, there isn't this one size fits all approach to working with it.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually it's, you know, it's about listening to people's individual

SARAH EDGE:

stories and recognising what they've experienced and where

SARAH EDGE:

they're at and what's right for them.

SARAH EDGE:

And really listening and understanding that.

SARAH EDGE:

I think that's what was kind of missing is that it didn't feel like

SARAH EDGE:

there was any avenue to actually say, "I'm finding this really hard."

SARAH EDGE:

Because people don't always talk about it, I didn't even know it was a thing.

SARAH EDGE:

I didn't even know other people struggled.

SARAH EDGE:

So I'd spent this night when I had been awake and couldn't

SARAH EDGE:

sort of get back to sleep.

SARAH EDGE:

And I began to write and I had my laptop out and I had Jack strapped

SARAH EDGE:

to my chest in a little sling thing.

SARAH EDGE:

And I began to write about my experience and I shared it online.

SARAH EDGE:

I shared it on my personal Facebook page and oh my God, the response that I got

SARAH EDGE:

was just unbelievable of people going like, "Oh - this is my experience".

SARAH EDGE:

"This is what I had", like "I had this too, thank you so much for sharing it."

SARAH EDGE:

People saying, "Can you make it public so I can share it with, you know,

SARAH EDGE:

with my friends and with my family?"

SARAH EDGE:

And still every so often get a request saying, "Oh, you wrote

SARAH EDGE:

this thing like years ago.

SARAH EDGE:

I'd love to share it with my friend who's having a hard time.

SARAH EDGE:

Can you send it to me?"

SARAH EDGE:

And it was just massive.

SARAH EDGE:

And to feel like it was that solidarity, it was like knowing that other

SARAH EDGE:

people were experiencing this thing of breastfeeding, having this huge

SARAH EDGE:

emotional and psychological impact on them that they had never, ever expected

SARAH EDGE:

or were in any way prepared for.

SARAH EDGE:

And you know, I think that's what was so, yeah, so valuable for me is sort

SARAH EDGE:

of like, you know, not knowing that other people have suffered, but knowing

SARAH EDGE:

that actually what I was experiencing in response to this was, was normal.

SARAH EDGE:

Because it kind of felt weird that like breastfeeding was so important to me

SARAH EDGE:

or become such a huge thing in my life.

SARAH EDGE:

Or my inability

SARAH EDGE:

to be able to.

SARAH EDGE:

So I was kind of plagued by it.

SARAH EDGE:

And you know, I'm not anymore.

SARAH EDGE:

So I know that it can get better.

SARAH EDGE:

But again, it's like we were talking about with things being a

SARAH EDGE:

process, it's not an instant thing.

SARAH EDGE:

There's not a quick fix answer to it.

SARAH EDGE:

There's not a quick fix formula.

SARAH EDGE:

Like formula doesn't necessarily fix the issue.

SARAH EDGE:

Certainly not the kind of psychological one that it's so deeply complex, and so

SARAH EDGE:

important that we kind of listen to...

SARAH EDGE:

yeah, people's individual stories.

SARAH EDGE:

But, you know, it's actually just this huge thing in my life, that breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE:

has given me and taken away from me kind of so much and has become, yeah,

SARAH EDGE:

this really big part of my life.

VIKKI:

think what you were saying about people feeling invalidated - that

VIKKI:

can be deeply, deeply traumatising.

SARAH EDGE:

It can be traumatising in of itself, that actually,

SARAH EDGE:

that can be the traumatic bit.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, I work with so many women that actually at the time of

SARAH EDGE:

something - you know, potentially a birth trauma - felt well supported.

SARAH EDGE:

What was traumatising is how they were responded to after.

VIKKI:

Mmmm.

SARAH EDGE:

So people invalidating it or minimising it or saying, you know,

SARAH EDGE:

"that wasn't blood loss", "that wasn't trauma", "it could have been worse".

SARAH EDGE:

Or any of those things.

SARAH EDGE:

That that bit is what can be what's the traumatising bit.

VIKKI:

....creating the damage.

VIKKI:

And certainly in season one there is an episode on Birth Trauma, with Dr.

VIKKI:

Becca Moore of Make Birth Better.

VIKKI:

So if anybody's affected by that, please give that a listen.

VIKKI:

And also I talk with Dr.

VIKKI:

Ori Onabanjo about trauma as well.

VIKKI:

But I just think so many women will feel seen and heard and validated

VIKKI:

from what you've been saying and absolutely, nobody is saying that

VIKKI:

there's a right way of doing things or a wrong way of doing things.

VIKKI:

It's just very, individual, but the message is not to feel bad at whatever

VIKKI:

those circumstances are and that it's okay and that there is help.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, and to acknowledge it yourself I think.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, it can be really hard when, you know, even if yourself have suffered

SARAH EDGE:

birth trauma or something that is more widely recognised, you can feel

SARAH EDGE:

like, "Well I can't talk about this.

SARAH EDGE:

I can't, because it's not as bad" or " It wasn't as traumatic

SARAH EDGE:

as something like that".

SARAH EDGE:

But actually, you know, trauma's on a scale, and of course things

SARAH EDGE:

can always be, "We'd be worse" and "Things can always be better".

SARAH EDGE:

But it doesn't mean that it's not had an impact.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think to ignore it and push it down, it just doesn't help.

SARAH EDGE:

So to actually have someone that you can talk to about it, even if

SARAH EDGE:

it's kind of with yourself through a journal or something, it can be so

SARAH EDGE:

incredibly powerful to acknowledge that "Yeah, I had a hard time

SARAH EDGE:

and I've had a response to that.

SARAH EDGE:

And that's kind of really...

SARAH EDGE:

that's really normal."

VIKKI:

Yeah...

VIKKI:

and that it can be all sorts of mixed emotions.

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely.

VIKKI:

Gosh life is complex and my God breastfeeding's complex and (laughs)...

SARAH EDGE:

Oh my god, yeah!

VIKKI:

Uh, just,

VIKKI:

reminds me of what Dr.

VIKKI:

Ori (Onabanjo) was saying, that you don't need a diagnosis to have somebody

VIKKI:

tell you something was traumatic.

VIKKI:

If you found it traumatic, it was traumatic.

VIKKI:

Full stop.

SARAH EDGE:

I couldn't agree with that more that the only person that gets

SARAH EDGE:

to decide if something was traumatic was the person that experienced it.

SARAH EDGE:

That it's not for somebody else to say whether it was or

SARAH EDGE:

not, you know, that's so true.

SARAH EDGE:

That actually, the definition of trauma is "a deeply distressing experience",

SARAH EDGE:

so many things come under that.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think what can be really unhelpful is being like, "Oh you

SARAH EDGE:

can only describe things like car accidents or war as trauma".

SARAH EDGE:

But actually, you know, so many things that happen to women and

SARAH EDGE:

families when they're having babies.

SARAH EDGE:

Like problems conceiving can be trauma, like pregnancies can be

SARAH EDGE:

traumatic - birth, loss, miscarriage.

SARAH EDGE:

There's so many things that women go through during this period of time that

SARAH EDGE:

can have the potential for trauma, but so many of them are minimised because

SARAH EDGE:

it's this expectation that this is going to be a wholly happy time in your life.

SARAH EDGE:

Obviously I've spoken about how things can coexist, that actually like the

SARAH EDGE:

birth and delivery of Jack was this moment of pure joy and happiness.

SARAH EDGE:

Finding out I was pregnant with him, I was so pleased.

SARAH EDGE:

But then there's still been things that have been difficult,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, along the way.

SARAH EDGE:

Breastfeeding particularly, that kind of obviously for me has stood out.

SARAH EDGE:

But we all have different individual experiences.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And that it's you know, acknowledging those feelings.

VIKKI:

And just with you talking about baby loss and miscarriage and how for a

VIKKI:

lot of parents - because it doesn't just affect the birthing person, it

VIKKI:

affects you know, their partners.

VIKKI:

And it doesn't matter how far into the pregnancy you were - a loss is a loss and

VIKKI:

you need to be able to grieve that loss.

VIKKI:

And there's...

VIKKI:

this, ...this sort of misconception that if you have a miscarriage that

VIKKI:

it's like, "Oh well, just don't worry.

VIKKI:

You can get pregnant again".

VIKKI:

That you can just move on.

VIKKI:

"Sorry that happened, but just get on with it."

VIKKI:

No!

VIKKI:

It can be devastating.

VIKKI:

Absolutely devastating.

SARAH EDGE:

Absolutely.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think there's something isn't there about, if that again is an example

SARAH EDGE:

of something being invalidated or dismissed or minimised that, you know,

SARAH EDGE:

you said then it's about grief and it's about recognising when loss is loss.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think, you know, actually that applies to baby loss and to miscarriage,

SARAH EDGE:

but also to so many experiences in pregnancy or postpartum actually.

SARAH EDGE:

You not being able to breastfeed or not being able to feed as you

SARAH EDGE:

wanted is a loss and it's okay to grieve that loss and to recognise it.

SARAH EDGE:

And you know actually part of the grieving process is to acknowledge

SARAH EDGE:

that what you've experienced is loss and to go through that process.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think that's kind of, you know, what I would say to anyone that's

SARAH EDGE:

had problems breastfeeding, who's had a difficult time, is to acknowledge

SARAH EDGE:

it as such and to be able to say to yourself "Yeah, I lost something

SARAH EDGE:

and I'm allowed to be sad about it.

SARAH EDGE:

I'm allowed to be sad about the experience I had and to, to think

SARAH EDGE:

about it, to talk about it."

SARAH EDGE:

That that's okay.

SARAH EDGE:

And it's an important part of the process.

VIKKI:

Accepting, I guess.

VIKKI:

And I just wanted to say to anybody who worries that if they were to

VIKKI:

give up breastfeeding because they've had difficulties or trauma related

VIKKI:

to it, please don't ever think that you will lose the bond that you

VIKKI:

have with your baby, because that's something that I really worried about.

VIKKI:

I struggled on for seven months and...

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

...funnily enough, I was diagnosed with having postal depression by a

VIKKI:

breastfeeding counsellor, who saw it in me because she had been through it herself.

VIKKI:

And she was the one that said, "Look, give him formula at night."

VIKKI:

It took a lot of pressure off.

VIKKI:

But when I finally gave up breastfeeding, because I was having too many blocked

VIKKI:

ducts and mastitis and stuff like that, and I was in a lot of pain that I...

VIKKI:

and here I am, it's like I'm, I can hear myself justifying it and

VIKKI:

getting almost defensive because I feel, I still feel shame about that.

VIKKI:

But I, I was really worried that those wonderful moments of, you know,

VIKKI:

when it wasn't painful, breastfeeding Stanley was wonderful and I was really

VIKKI:

scared that I wouldn't have that bond of cuddling him in the same way

VIKKI:

that I had when I was feeding him.

VIKKI:

But that's nonsense.

VIKKI:

You know, it doesn't

VIKKI:

... SARAH EDGE: yeah.

VIKKI:

...change that

VIKKI:

at all..

SARAH EDGE:

Feeding a baby is wonderfully bonding however you do it and actually

SARAH EDGE:

it's gonna be more bonding if you are enjoying it, if you're both enjoying

SARAH EDGE:

it, if it feels good for both of you.

SARAH EDGE:

And actually, I had, I loved feeding Jack his bottles, you

SARAH EDGE:

know, how snuggling with him.

SARAH EDGE:

I was really anxious about the bond too and I wouldn't let anybody else feed him,

SARAH EDGE:

because I was kind of wanting to almost mimic that "well, if I was breastfeeding,

SARAH EDGE:

it would only be me feeding him".

SARAH EDGE:

But I did, I did let up on that and kind of, you know, let my husband have one

SARAH EDGE:

like evening feed so I could have a sleep!

SARAH EDGE:

But I, I really loved feeding him and watching him enjoy his bottles and being

SARAH EDGE:

all sleepy and yeah, that it doesn't, it doesn't in any way affect the bond.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, I've got two children, they were both fed differently and the bond with

SARAH EDGE:

one isn't different from the the other.

SARAH EDGE:

I love them both.

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, I know what you said then about that kind of feeling like you

SARAH EDGE:

need to justify why you're feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think no, that's something I'm aware I still do.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, I've almost spent, however long we've been an hour doing that to

SARAH EDGE:

you, like kind of setting the scene and, "Oh, he was born early" and this is,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, "This is how hard I've tried".

SARAH EDGE:

It's almost like it's okay if you've tried and it was too hard, but actually

SARAH EDGE:

it's okay if you just don't want to.

SARAH EDGE:

Like it's trying to normalise that, like, it's okay to listen

SARAH EDGE:

to yourself from the off.

SARAH EDGE:

If it's not for you, it's, that's fine.

SARAH EDGE:

Like I also kind of don't want to contribute to a narrative of, "Oh

SARAH EDGE:

well you can stop breastfeeding, but only if you've almost like

SARAH EDGE:

killed yourself in the process".

SARAH EDGE:

Like, no, you can

SARAH EDGE:

stop way before that point.

VIKKI:

You can combi combi feed as well.

VIKKI:

You know, there there's no, there's no shame in that.

VIKKI:

And certainly something that I found very reassuring when I did bottle feed

VIKKI:

was that the ability of knowing how much milk Stanley was getting, because

VIKKI:

again he was so small, there was this big pressure about, you know the

VIKKI:

angst of like " Which breast next?"

VIKKI:

And "Are you giving them enough of the different qualities of milk?"

VIKKI:

depending how long you breastfeed and "Do you switch breasts?"

VIKKI:

Oh God, you know, dream feeding and all those things.

VIKKI:

And the amount I'd

VIKKI:

beat myself up, you know, and, I would always worry about like, "was

VIKKI:

he getting enough quality milk?

VIKKI:

Was he getting enough milk?"

VIKKI:

And so to then be able to see exactly, know what volume he was taking

VIKKI:

was actually a huge relief for me.

VIKKI:

And it's so wonderful that you were able to get through this and to contemplate

VIKKI:

being able to have another child because I think for many of us who

VIKKI:

have been through postnatal depression or anxiety or postpartum psychosis or

VIKKI:

whatever you went through perinatally, there is that dilemma about can I

VIKKI:

risk going through another pregnancy?

SARAH EDGE:

Yeah, and I totally, totally relate to that because after

SARAH EDGE:

I had my daughter and I suffered, you know, kind of a lot worse after her,

SARAH EDGE:

and you think of the pandemic, and stuff kind of contributed to that.

SARAH EDGE:

But I know, you know, now I couldn't have any more children, like I

SARAH EDGE:

couldn't go through that again.

SARAH EDGE:

So it's almost like my experience with Jack was almost so kkind of

SARAH EDGE:

focused on the breastfeeding and sort of isolated to the breastfeeding,

SARAH EDGE:

and the rest of it was kind of okay.

SARAH EDGE:

It wasn't all-consuming.

SARAH EDGE:

I hadn't experienced postnatal depression, whereas, you know, now

SARAH EDGE:

I've experienced postnatal depression, know how all-consuming that is and

SARAH EDGE:

actually how difficult it would be to enter another pregnancy, you

SARAH EDGE:

know, having had that experience.

SARAH EDGE:

So I suppose that's kind of, you know, why it felt okay.

SARAH EDGE:

I mean, I definitely went in with a sort of feeling of breastfeeding,

SARAH EDGE:

feeling particularly sort of raw or like a difficult subject.

SARAH EDGE:

You know, I remember saying like, literally during my delivery, like, "I

SARAH EDGE:

will try and breastfeed but any hint of a problem and my bag is full of formula."

SARAH EDGE:

And I felt confident in that choice and sort of able to advocate for myself.

SARAH EDGE:

And I was incredibly lucky that the second time I didn't experience any

SARAH EDGE:

difficulties and she fed really well, and we went on to feed for a long time.

SARAH EDGE:

But it was, yeah, it was definitely this kind of anxiety before the second

SARAH EDGE:

pregnancy of almost like seeing the opportunity for a healing process of

SARAH EDGE:

feeding, but knowing that if I tried and it didn't happen, that it could

SARAH EDGE:

be potentially re-triggering again.

SARAH EDGE:

And I sort of had this thing in me as well, because I'd already started

SARAH EDGE:

to work with infant feeding grief and trauma, almost like I developed this

SARAH EDGE:

internal narrative of "I'm not going to be taken seriously by both sides

SARAH EDGE:

of the argument or of like, you know, people that are pro "Fed is Best"

SARAH EDGE:

and doing what's best for a family.

SARAH EDGE:

And then people that have a very breastfeeding heavy agenda.

SARAH EDGE:

I was almost like, I'm not going to be taken seriously in what

SARAH EDGE:

I do unless I've done both.

SARAH EDGE:

So I'd almost created this pressure myself to be like, "I need to have

SARAH EDGE:

had two different experiences".

SARAH EDGE:

So I need to have both formula fed and both breastfed to kind of satisfy,

SARAH EDGE:

you know, other people's sort of stuff like, you know, that you can't control.

SARAH EDGE:

But I had certainly developed that narrative of like, "Oh, I'm not

SARAH EDGE:

going to be, yeah, I'm not going to be taken seriously in what I do",

SARAH EDGE:

which now I'm like, "That's nonsense!"

SARAH EDGE:

But it really was around, so I think, you know, absolutely your experience

SARAH EDGE:

of the first time of going into motherhood, absolutely impacts your

SARAH EDGE:

decision either to have another, but also impacts if you do decide to do it.

SARAH EDGE:

But certainly had I had my daughter first and the experience of

SARAH EDGE:

postnatal depression I had with her, I wouldn't have had another baby

SARAH EDGE:

because of how difficult it was.

SARAH EDGE:

So, I do totally get it if it feels, yeah, too much to kind of

SARAH EDGE:

put yourself through all of that.

VIKKI:

Again, there's no right and wrong, you know, it's totally individual.

VIKKI:

And yeah, it's something that I will be talking about with Elaine

VIKKI:

Hanzak, about the, decision of whether to have another child after that.

VIKKI:

But happily, you did have your darling daughter.

VIKKI:

I'm so sorry that, you know, you had such a tough time with her in a very

VIKKI:

different way, and that's something that we'll talk about in the next episode.

VIKKI:

But for now, thank you so much for being so brave and honest and open.

VIKKI:

And is there a final message for anybody who's beating themselves

VIKKI:

up about feeding at the moment?

SARAH EDGE:

Oh, it's so hard, isn't it?

SARAH EDGE:

Because you just wanna say like, "Please don't!"

SARAH EDGE:

The journey you've been on and what you've been through, and to

SARAH EDGE:

show yourself some compassion.

SARAH EDGE:

Compassion is the antidote to trauma - experiencing compassion, you

SARAH EDGE:

feeling compassion, having it given to

SARAH EDGE:

you is what helps us heal.

SARAH EDGE:

And I think is to, yeah, to show yourself some and kind of recognise

SARAH EDGE:

that you've been through a tough time and that it is gonna get better.

SARAH EDGE:

There are gonna be points when you think less and less about feeding.

SARAH EDGE:

When you're in the thick of it, it feels like it consumes your whole mind.

SARAH EDGE:

But, you know, my son's five now, I mean, how often, you know, other than when

SARAH EDGE:

I'm doing things like this, how often do I think about the way he was fed?

SARAH EDGE:

Like, if I didn't do the work I would do, it would be barely ever!

SARAH EDGE:

So it does get better.

SARAH EDGE:

And it does feel easier to manage over time, but show yourself some compassion.

SARAH EDGE:

And know that you're not alone - whilst nobody's been through your exact kind

SARAH EDGE:

of individual experience, so many people have understanding and empathy for you.

VIKKI:

Thank you so much.

VIKKI:

And and for anybody that struggles with self-compassion, which I know

VIKKI:

a lot of us do, there are two episodes in Season One, with the

VIKKI:

incredible Poonam Dhuffer of Yes M8.

VIKKI:

And that's dedicated to self-compassion and why it's really important and

VIKKI:

why it's both necessary for you but also for the welfare of your family.

VIKKI:

So if you can't justify doing it for yourself, do it your family.

VIKKI:

And there's also a 15 minute 'Loving Kindness' Meditation that she

VIKKI:

has created especially for us.

VIKKI:

And you don't need to meditate, or if you've never meditated before and

VIKKI:

don't like the idea, all you have to do is just close your eyes and listen.

VIKKI:

You don't need to do anything else.

SARAH EDGE:

And it's lovely, I've listened to it.

SARAH EDGE:

it's really nice.

VIKKI:

Aw that's great feedback.

VIKKI:

So yeah, thank you so much Poonam for creating that for us.

VIKKI:

And, uh, thanks so much for being my guest today, Sarah.

VIKKI:

Look forward to carrying on the conversation for part two.

SARAH EDGE:

Oh, thank you for having me.

VIKKI:

The theme music is 'Sunrise Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

VIKKI:

New episodes are released the first Monday of each month, available

VIKKI:

on all major podcast platforms.

VIKKI:

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest, and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

VIKKI:

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

VIKKI:

It helps more people to find us.

VIKKI:

Thank you so much.

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