Pennie Alexander and Jacky High-Caston, join me on this special bonus episode of The Instructor Podcast as we discuss Driving Mobility and why they need ADIs.

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Strap in, folks! This bonus episode of the Instructor Podcast, hosted by the ever-jovial Terry Cook, is a wild ride through the world of driving instruction with a twist! We’re diving deep into the Driver Mobility survey, led by the dynamic duo of Penny Alexander and Jackie Hykasten. Imagine this: a bunch of driving instructors getting together to chat about how they can better cater to students with disabilities. Yep, that's right! They’re not just talking shop; they're on a mission to gather insights and make driving instruction more inclusive for everyone. Penny spills the beans on how the survey aims to collect crucial data about the challenges faced by Approved Driving Instructors (ADIs) who work with individuals with disabilities. And trust me, the anecdotes are as heartwarming as they are enlightening! From adaptations in vehicles to the importance of understanding neurodiversity, it’s a treasure trove of information for anyone in the driving instruction game. So, grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and let’s explore how we can all make the roads a little more accessible!

Takeaways:

• The podcast highlights the importance of the Driver Mobility survey for instructors to understand the needs of driving learners with disabilities, which helps pool knowledge and resources together.
• Terry Cook emphasizes that anyone interested in the world of driving instruction should participate in the surveys, making their voices heard to improve the industry.
• The conversation reveals that there is a significant lack of specialized driving instructors for those with disabilities, indicating a huge opportunity for growth and training in this area.
• The podcast discusses adaptations in vehicles, showcasing how they can empower individuals with disabilities to drive effectively, and how instructors can learn to use these adaptations.
• There are ongoing efforts to gather data on instructors' experiences and barriers faced in teaching students with disabilities, aiming for a more inclusive driving instruction environment.
• Finally, the episode underlines the collaborative approach needed in the driving industry, where feedback from instructors can shape future training and resources for better inclusion.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

As always, I am your Jolly Northern host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because we are back with a special bonus episode for you.

You see, over in my membership at the Instructor Podcast Premium, I put out a call to arms and release a zoom link for anyone to go and book session to come and record on a topic of their choice.

And the first person to jump at the opportunity was Penny Alexander, who also invited along Jackie Hykasten to talk about the recent Driver Mobility survey and why and how driving instructors can take apart and why you needed to take part.

So as you're listening through, you will be able to find a link to that survey in the comments in the show description for this episod.

But just before we get stuck in, I want to take a moment to point you in the direction of the Instructor podcast website.

That's www.theinstructorpodcast.com.

now over there you can find all the free resource we have to offer.

You can find details of the online membership which is the Instructor Podcast Premium.

And you can find details of how to work with me one to one, whether that be across zoom in person, in car or any way other you can conceive if you would like some training with me.

So make sure you go and check that out.

That's www.theinstructorpodcast.com.

but for now let's get stuck into the show.

Benny, thank you for joining us.

What is it that you want me to talk about today?

Thank you for having me.

Terry, I would like to talk to you about the research project that's going on, the Driving Mobility.

I've brought along Jackie hi Kasten from Driving from East Anglian Drivability who will introduce herself because I can never remember her title.

So Jackie, thank you.

Penny.

Yes, I'm Jackie Highcaster and I'm actually an occupational therapist by background, but I'm also the business development manager for East Anglian Drivability who are part of Driving Mobility.

And currently for my sins, I've been asked by Driving Mobility to actually head up a project which is a research project funded by Motability foundation to look at the number of ADIs out there in the specialist sector of working and doing tuition with people living with disabilities.

The reason we're doing this project is that for many years anecdotally people have talked about the fact that it's not an easy area to get into because of either the cost of putting, for example adaptations into vehicles or finding out where they can learn about the different disabilities.

And although that's been banded around Penny, I think for many years by people like John Rogers and the disabled drivers sort of group, we haven't got any hard evidence on it.

So recently Motability actually awarded us the opportunity to with a grant to actually do this project and we started off in October just looking at it and developed some questionnaires.

Now, interesting what we want to do.

I think there's around.

Am I right?

I'm thinking there's around 40,000 ADIs out there.

I'm not an ADI as my background and we want as many people as possible to give their views on this by filling in a short survey the surveys.

There's one for people already working with disability and tuition and and just to talk about what that area covers.

Of course, many people with disabilities don't see themselves as having disabilities, so I think we're all aware it's very, very difficult to be inclusive and look at who that actually includes.

So we're looking at people maybe who are living with ms, amputations, spinal injuries, neurodiversity, deafness, anything and everything that could affect driving a conventional vehicle or indeed learning to drive in a conventional way.

So as I say, the surveys are there for those and there'll be some links, I believe, Terry, that you'll be able to give people to go on to for the surveys.

There's one for those who consider they are working in this area, even if it's a mix of your usual learners and disability and those that don't consider they are.

And it's just as important we hear from people who aren't doing it because with the surveys we've had back so far and we've had around 300 and the balance on that is about 100 in the specialist field and around 200 not in the specialist field.

But interestingly there's well over 70% in the non specialist field that are actually saying it is something they have considered but there are a number of reasons that they haven't accessed it.

We try to make the surveys easier.

A lot of it is tick box so you've got some options.

But there is also free text because we want to hear what your views are.

You're the experts out there as ADIs, you know what your needs are.

If you wanted to go into this area of work, we at the assessment centres, Penny I work very closely with ADIs we're looking very much at medical fitness to drive and is the medical condition affecting their ability to drive safely?

If it is, is there something we can do about it?

Hence having a clinician like myself who understands the medical component.

We work very much as co assessors and once we've assessed what somebody needs, if that be adaptations or a certain maybe sort of style of tuition or a length of tuition for, they've lost confidence.

Maybe some of the older people that come to us have lost confidence when we've assessed what they need.

We know it's very difficult to find adis out there.

Penny, I mean you might like to talk about our local area and sort of how we've got a lack of.

It's really difficult.

I think in total around East Angelo there's about six to.

Is it six, seven driving instructors that.

We know of with adaptations.

Yeah.

And it's the whole of East Anglin driverability around Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, Lincolnshire.

So there's a lot of this.

So we go across the bottom, Colchester, right up, right the way up to Grimsby, we have people come into for assessment.

So there's a massive area that we cover and eight instructors.

So and that's the only thing we're talking more around adaptations which I think is the more tangible thing that we think about when comes to disability.

But we must remember that, as I say, and there are a lot of people out in your industry doing training around neurodiversity and what have you and we need again to look at what's out there, how people can access this education to upskill them in this particular sector of your industry and making sure that it's fit for purpose, that it is locally accessible.

Again, I know as drive instructors you seem to work all out hours God sends and it's, you know, taking time out, particularly if you're self employed, isn't always easy.

So it's looking at all of those things.

With regard to the adaptations, we've had some comments around the fact that it's not only the setup cost but it's.

There are concerns about, well, would that affect my ability to drive and do lessons or nutrition with people who don't need adaptations.

So there's a lot we're learning that people aren't sure about in this industry.

But until we know what people want to know and what they need, then we can't put forward for the next phase of this.

Potentially there are three phases of this which as I say, it's a Motability foundation grant.

We've only been given the first stage.

But we're hopeful that we will be successful with a bid to get the next stage.

But a lot of it hangs on to the success of this first stage, obviously, which is why I'm kind of out there saying, please, please, whoever you are, as an adi, fill in one of our questionnaires.

Now's the opportunity for things we've talked about for years to get some hard evidence around this.

Let me ask you about that then.

Like you say, the next stage, is that dependent on the volume of ADIs that fill in the survey or does it depend on the.

The response within the survey?

I think it will be.

We haven't got any set figures as to.

We haven't been given a target of numbers that we need to fill in.

But obviously, the more we have, the more evidence we know, the stronger and more likely we are to go forward.

I don't feel that this would be being looked at if it wasn't serious that we were going to go on further with it, you know, because there's been a lot of money obviously plowed into the first stage of this so that we get out as far and wide as possible to, as I say, engage with ADIs, but also the stakeholders, you know, DVSA, the DIA, ADI, JNC, all of these people, you know, industry leaders like yourself, influence with getting involved with you, hearing your views.

There's a lot of time, you know, nine months, we're looking at dedicating to doing this research.

So I don't think, going back to your question, there is a fixed number.

It'll be around the quality of the information that we get as well.

And I have to say, to date, we've had some really as a positive sort of interaction with people and some things that, you know, although we know the cost and the training is something.

There are other things that have come up.

For example, some people are concerned about it triggering Penny, you'll know, triggering the bandage check.

Bandage check.

That's something that's come up.

You know, people are unsure whether it will affect their insurance.

There's all sorts of little things.

We've even had people saying, I didn't even know that you could get adaptations on a vehicle for a person with loss of limb, for example, to drive.

So it is raising awareness, definitely.

And then it's like a lot of these research publics, what comes out of it will then shape the next stage, I think.

And then motability, obviously should actually be putting out and will be putting in bids to actually look at.

Okay, we now Know what the issues are and the barriers and the challenges as well as we've already asked people to start thinking about, well, what would you do?

How could we change this?

So the next stage would actually be to put into place what is needed, develop that, and then the latter stage, third stage, would actually be to look at implementing it.

And this is all very much about a collaborative approach for the benefit being for the end user who, you know, at the moment may have to travel a very long way or wait a very long time to get an ADI with the knowledge and equipment, skills, etc.

To provide tuition.

So someone like myself actually, who, if I'm being completely honest, I haven't got time to do this at the moment, running free businesses, you know, it's the kind of thing that doesn't mean I won't do it in the future, but for the foreseeable future, I don't see how I can accommodate this.

Is it still useful that even if I know that I can start, you know, pride in this training, pride in these assessments, is it still useful if I fill in that survey?

Absolutely.

And indeed, Terry, interesting.

We have had people commenting on that.

I'm not ready to do it now.

But, you know, I also am aware that I would have to think about this and that's a bit of a challenge for me.

I'm not sure how I would fund adaptations.

I'm not sure where I would go to advertise that I'm doing this kind of work or where I would go to learn about neurodiversity or to learn about ms, you know, and the implications of that on driving.

So absolutely say the call is for anyone and everyone.

We want to hear your views on this because then we're informed, you know, that's what it's all about is having, I don't know, as I say, I'm not from your background.

I've heard anecdotally, I've worked with ADIS over the last 10 years very closely and this is, I can't believe it's a fantastic opportunity for us actually to get it documented, everybody's views and concerns they've had and how we can take it forward positively.

And is the end goal just regard to survey, just to, like you say, collect that information, but then the end goal is to get as many ADIs, you know, coming into this sector as possible?

Well, I mean, there's certainly a shortage.

I mean, it's difficult to quantify that.

And again, even with the surveys, I think, you know, we have to be mindful that if you've got an interest in this, you're more likely to fill in the survey.

So when we're asking, you know, who of you out there are actually doing this, we don't know whether that's a true reflection of the number of people that are.

There's no other way of doing it.

You've got to start somewhere.

But yes, as Penny said, I mean, the problem that we have, I mean, with driving, mobility, for example, East Anglian drivability, we're seeing around 1,800 people a year for assessment.

That's just in, you know, sort of, as Penny gave the geographical area, Norfolk, Suffolk, a little bit of Cambridgeshire, Essex, et cetera.

Now, not all of those are going to need tuition, but there are a fair number that do.

And as I say, we know that there are a lot of people who don't come to us.

Some people just go straight to motability for adaptations.

Those with sort of as learners particularly, you know, a lot of ADIs are saying, oh, I'm seeing these people, but I don't.

And they're posting on forums like the ddi, saying, please, can somebody give me a bit of advice?

I've now got a student who's telling me that they've got this problem.

Can people advise?

So say it is difficult to quantify the numbers at the moment.

I don't believe anybody truly holds.

We can look at tests.

Obviously people have gone through the test process and know how many people have actually needed an extended test for a disability.

But that's just one small part of it.

You've got to remember that you're also seeing people who maybe have had a stroke, so they're already a license holder, but they've now got to maybe drive with adaptations.

They're not going to go through that.

So those numbers aren't really known.

So it's a little bit, you know, like that.

But from the experience in the field, as the term is, from those of us referring and needing to get tuition, specialist tuition, we know that there are gaps in geographical areas.

For example, along the North Norfolk coast, if you're living up sort of near Shering or Cromer, there isn't anybody up there to do that.

So there are gaps around the country as well as the fact it can be a very long wait or people have to travel a long way to have that lesson.

So it's about being more, more inclusive and being able to offer, you know, an equitable service to everybody.

I'm going to come back to Penny in a Minute.

But before I move over, is there anything else you want to touch on there, Jackie?

I don't think so.

As I say it just really to say it isn't just about people, as I've said before, who are working with disability.

It is about anybody who's an adi.

Because we want to hear your views.

I would say as well, excuse me interrupting Jackie.

I'd say as well, PDIS training, get them to fill it in as well.

It's not limited to adis.

Yeah, oh, absolutely.

I suppose the thing I would chip in as well is even if you're listening to this and you know full well you're not going to provide this training if by filling the form you still may already raise a point as you were touching before, that you may, you know, no one else may never have considered before.

So you may still be able to help just by filling that form.

But, but no, I, I appreciate long Jack, it was a nice meeting you and it was good hearing your, your, your thoughts on this.

So a big thank you for joining us today.

Well, thank you very much indeed, Terry.

As I say, I really do appreciate everybody's input with this to raise it, you know, sort of far and wide and hopefully I can come back to you and give you the results of what we found with the survey and the research and also let you know what's happening about future stages.

If you'd be happy to have me.

Back, you'd be more than welcome.

Thanks, Terry.

Thank you both.

So Penny, before I dig into a few questions on that with you, maybe a bit more around the practicalities of it, is there anything you want to add on to what Jackie said there?

At the moment we want, but it's just simply anybody to fit in this questionnaire whether you've got any intentions whatsoever on coming into this side of the industry.

So teaching neurodiverse, I can't talk.

Neurodiverse students, people with hearing issues, stroke.

So going up to people with strokes.

So we've had young people with strokes, 20 year olds, 21 year olds, so they still haven't learned to drive.

So they're still wanting to learn to drive.

So there's so many people out there, I was looking on Facebook today, there's people that are asking questions about somebody that's had a stroke with left sided weakness.

It's, I don't think people realize just how, how hard it is or how difficult it is with somebody with a medical problem problem to become a, to become a driver or to continue driving after they've had that issue.

I think the thing is, they often can though, can't they?

I think, oh, yes, the, the human brain goes to extremes.

So you go to the extreme of, oh, well, I can fix anyone, jump in my car, I'll sort it with no consideration around that.

Or the other extreme of, well, this person's got a mess or they can't drive.

Yeah.

Is that something you come across a lot?

I think yes.

As Jackie said, there's lots of people out there that do not even realize that cars can be adapted and the way cars can be adapted.

I've seen people without any legs driving.

I've seen people with an arm and a leg missing.

Had somebody yesterday come for an assessment and they had a right hand amputated who didn't think he would be able to drive again.

And he was just a standard drive, standard car with a steering spinner that has nefarious buttons on to do windscreens, wipers, indicators and everything.

So that's the only adaption he needed to help him steer.

So.

And obviously an automatic vehicle.

So there is, there's so much involved.

So just not just about the adaptions as well, it's more about the dealing with the individual because depending on what it is that's brought them to us for an assessment, it's how we deal with them and what we look for when we're helping them.

So is it an adaptation that's going to help them drive or is it something that they need that specialist tuition to help them through understanding?

So there is a lot to it as an assessor, but as an instructor, it's just knowing how to help people.

Well, let me ask you about the adaptations because I'm curious about these.

Are they, would they cause a problem with normal lessons?

So, you know, once they're on, does that impact your regular lessons if you like?

No.

So obviously you've got to have an automatic vehicle.

So as long as you're teaching in an automatic, push pull hand controls sit at the side of the steering column so they don't affect anything.

As you pull the lever, it accelerates for you.

You can't see the pedal, obviously because it's electronic.

When you're driving the car normally you just ignore the handle, the push pull lever, because your pedals are still there.

If you've got a left foot accelerator, so you need your left leg because you haven't got right leg or your right leg doesn't work the right, the standard accelerator can flip up out of the way and then the left foot accelerator flips down.

So they use just the left foot accelerator and then vice versa.

So if anybody normal driving can flip the right foot accelerator down, the left foot accelerator goes up and it's just back to a standard vehicle.

Are you allowed to.

And if you are, do you ever play with those adaptations yourself when you're driving?

Of course, yes.

Well, do you know what, I guess that you would in terms of playboom, but I'm thinking surely that's allowed.

But I wasn't sure if there's a technicality there that said.

So if your license is coded, you can only drive with those adaptations.

If your license isn't coded, you can drive with those adaptations if you are able to.

So we all have training on how to drive with the various ones and then if I've got one of the automatic vehicles, I will practice with it.

So excuse me.

It helps me understand what the individuals are going through and how they need to use the adaptation to help them drive.

You ever let learners use them like people that don't need them?

Do you ever let them use them?

I don't because my car, my own car isn't adapted.

So the only cars I have are with the adaptations are through east and drivability.

So insurance wise, no, I can't do that.

I have been trying with the idea of getting my car adapted but with me it's time, I just don't have the time to do.

If I could get rid of some of my learners, some of my standard learners, which I am trying to do desperately, then I'm looking at getting my car adapted.

So then, yeah, maybe if they wanted to have a go, I'd let them have a go.

As long as it's in a safe environment at the moment.

No, I can't.

And what I don't.

Not necessarily expecting numbers in an answer to this question, but what's the cost like, what's the outlay like?

So Kev Lyons, my good friend Kev has just been pricing up to get his car done and he's had a quote from one company to get the push pull accelerator put in, which is quite a nice one.

It's a vagle and that he said was poted £250.

They're doing a special offer at the moment.

On average there's a couple through disability driving instructors and they've got a couple of the special offers going on.

About 500 pound I think to have push pull accelerator.

Yeah, push pull accelerator, brake, left foot accelerator and steering ball steering spinner.

I think they're 500 pound but it's thing the other thing to think about when you're getting these adaptations.

If you've got push pull accelerator, you cannot adjust the steering column because the steering column has to be set in one place because of the push brake.

So that's one of the things that actually put me off of getting my car done because my husband's a bit, quite a bit taller than me.

So when he's in he's always adjusting the steering wheel.

So whether I end up getting a different car to my standard automatic or whether I do get my automatic done, I haven't decided yet.

I suppose actually that's one way it could affect driving lessons, you know, if you've got a particular larger or smaller student in comparison to you.

Yeah.

So it depends on the adjustment of the steering wheel in my car because It's a Volvo XC40, so it's got a fairly wide or deep range when you change the steering wheel.

But if you've got a car that's not got much of a change.

So something I don't know, I think my MG3 for example, when I had that, that had a very small range in the steering movability.

So something like that, if you had an automatic, one of those would be quite easy to adapt.

And it depends on the vehicle that you get your vehicle choice as well.

And then what sort of training's available for us if we got these adaptations?

This is, this is another issue.

There's not a lot of training available.

So Driving Mobility do do some training for driving instructors, but I think they only do one or two a year, so there's not much.

But that's something else that I would like to bring on board is having tuition available.

Whether that will happen or not through Driving Mobility, I have no idea.

But it's something that I am interested in doing.

So if anybody wants any help, I'm more than happy to give my advice, give the advice out.

That was gonna be my next point though.

So even if it's not readily available, where we can go and book it, we're still capable of reaching out to someone and seeing.

Could you provide me some training on this?

So what I'd suggest if somebody wanted some training because they want to get the adaptations is go to their local driving mobility center and just say to them, look, I want some training so I can just help, just learn how to use the adaptations so then I can go and teach it.

I'm sure any driving mobility center would be willing to help.

And then one thing Jackie mentioned when she was talking there that she said she had a few people raised as a point on the survey that I'd not even crossed my mind was about how it might affect standards check triggers.

Yep.

Yeah.

What's your thoughts and experience on this?

So I think it's just with same with any learner, it's just making sure that they can do everything they need to safely.

As if they're doing everything they need to safely, they should be passing their test anyway.

So examiners do have training for people that use adaptations.

How much training?

I couldn't tell you, but I know they have had, or they should have had training in those areas, but it's a case of talking to the examiners before you get there.

So making sure when you're booking the test that it's all been cleared with a DVSA that they've got these adaptations and they need.

The driving test centre needs to be made aware.

So I suggest is phoning the driving test centre the day before and saying, I've got this person coming up.

They're using push pull hand controls so that the driving examiner is aware of what they're going to be seeing.

That makes sense.

Is there anything else you want to touch on with this Penny?

No, I think that's everything.

I'm not going to go into all the assessments and everything we do because that's a lot more complicated.

But, yeah.

So if anybody's interested in becoming or teaching with adaptations, feel free to contact me.

I'm more than happy to help anyone that wants to know.

Well, I'll include links in the show notes, the comments for this, but.

But, yeah, big thank you for being the.

The first person to jump into this.

This Premium Takeover episode that I'm doing every month going forward.

So, yeah, thank you for that.

Thank you for having me.

And we'll look forward to getting you back on another episode of Penny for your Farts soon as well.

Yes, yes, I'm looking forward to that.

We need to organize that, don't we?

We do indeed.

I'm not gonna lie.

I assume when you booked this, that's what we were doing while you were making the most of it.

But we got something different inside, so that's completely fine.

But, yeah, big thank you for joining me, Dave.

Enjoyed it, as always.

Thank you.

I've enjoyed it too.

The instructor podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.