Ever wonder what really happens when workaholism, family expectations, and a purpose-driven heart collide? In this episode, Melody and Curt dig into the reality of entrepreneurship with Michael Hinderliter—aka the “power wash guy”—who’s lived through business reinvention, divorce, and the very human challenge of not losing yourself (or your mind) along the way.

What We Talk About:

• The story of how Melody and Michael managed to become genuine friends despite wildly different backgrounds, politics, and very different flights to Italy
• Why Michael’s dad trained him in power washing... after his failed union organizing left him blackballed from the industry
• What it’s like growing up “power washing royalty” and why Michael never bought into the hype (or used his last name as a business card)
• The chaos (and crumbling) of running a business with your spouse and what happens when your identities (and failures) get all tangled up
• Curt and Melody trading notes on marriage dynamics: ride-or-die loyalty, chaos muppets vs. moored partners, and why most of us are building our businesses for our families (and sometimes forgetting to check if it’s actually working)
• The truth about depression for entrepreneurs, and Michael’s way of climbing out of the pit.. plus why time isn’t your most valuable asset, but your mind is
• Purpose, faith, and why Michael prays for people who’ve hurt him (including his exes—yes, really)
• What changes when you become a grandparent (hint: more joy, less exhaustion), and why the “happiness chase” is a game you only win by stepping out of it

Key Takeaways:

• Chasing “success” for your family while burning yourself out rarely ends with connection or peace—it might undermine both
• Admitting you don’t have all the answers (or that you’ve been wrong) is where real growth starts, not where it ends
• Relationships—business, personal, or even with yourself.. don’t get better by default; they get better with honesty and uncomfortable work
• Everyone’s fighting battles you can’t see, and almost nobody fits the mold you thought was universal when you were 25

Timestamps:

• [00:00] Raw opening – showing emotion vs. losing respect
• [00:41] Introductions & the Italy “diplomacy” story
• [11:47] Michael’s family, union busting, and the birth of a power washing legacy
• [22:09] Marriage, working 24/7 with your spouse, and when things fall apart
• [35:56] Post-divorce, depression, and the struggle to find meaning again
• [46:10] Faith, business, and praying for people who’ve hurt you
• [57:56] Becoming a grandparent and shifting family roles
• [1:03:29] Stereotypes, gender roles, and learning to rethink old beliefs
• [1:24:16] Showing emotion as a leader—where’s the line?
• [1:26:12] The difference between happiness, purpose, and surviving the rollercoaster

There's dynamics in a relationship where you want to show emotion, but if you show the emotion, you come across as weak.

But do you care?

I do care. I care because I don't want to lose respect.

Welcome to the Sole Proprietor Podcast. I'm Curt Kempton.

And I'm Melody Edwards.

Each week, we dive into the ethical questions that keep entrepreneurs awake at night.

Whether you're building your own company or exploring life's big questions, you are welcome here.

All right.

Hey, Melody, how are you today?

I'm so excited because my dear friend Michael is on the show today with us.

Yes, I love Michael. He goes way back. And people who know Michael Hinderleiter are already here, just because anytime Michael speaks is fun here. He's a good storyteller, and he's got lots of life lessons. But I wanted to just start off by sort of sharing how I know Michael and what I'm really excited about to talk about today. And then I know that, Melody, you have. You and Michael have quite the introduction story, but I just met Michael like a regular person. I went to a conference, I walked into his booth, and, you know, actually the first time I met him, I think, was in New Orleans.

And I actually met him as just, like, the power wash guy. He knows everything about downstreaming and all the chemicals and everything. And I had a window washing company, and I just talked to him like he was an expert. Like, I just wanted to, like, know about water and chemicals and how to make water go at high pressure. But it was after that that I just started hearing a lot about him. Like, he's had a lot of reach in the community, and I'm like, I kept hearing his name in a lot of different conversations, just in the context of Michael, help me with this. Or we figured that out, or we did this. And it was very technical.

Still, it wasn't until years later that I actually was in a mastermind group with Michael, and I kind of got to meet him more as not the tech guy of how to technically wash stuff, but as, like, the human. And maybe it was because I was so prideful that I ever brought in my problems to him, like, directly. And I probably would have gotten that previously, but I just. I knew he was a good person, and I didn't get to experience until the mastermind group. And a few of the experiences I had with them just, like, really led me to believe, like, this is a guy who has, on the outside, looks like he's got everything all figured out. But he's been through it. He didn't, like, wasn't born with the instruction manual. And we got to be on a.

Like, a power boat in Mexico. We were going down this area, and, like, it's, like, his thing. I'm, like, looking at all the animals in the water and, like, worried about sharks and alligators and whatever is in that kind of water. Like, that's just, like, his thing. He was, like, right at home, and we got to talking about, like, life and his marriage and, well, his divorce at that point, and we talked about that, and he shared some pretty heavy stuff with me that he'd been through, and I was like, dang, dude, why are you acting normal? So we'll get into that with our conversation today, but just really genuinely great guy, and I'm super thankful that we're gonna be able to talk today about sort of the rise and fall and rise again and how it is to, like, dust yourself off and get back up. But I'm kind of curious, Melody, like, how did you meet Michael?

Well, I have to tell the story, Michael, of course, because I like to embellish, but never. Michael and I are international diplomats.

Yes.

Okay. As we like to be known to Italy. What I say is, we are United States trade delegates sponsored by the Italian government. Oh, a lot of words.

It's a true story, though.

It is true.

I thought you were teasing.

You didn't know.

It's very true.

You're going to love this story. Yeah. So our dear friend Allison, Esther, was a reporter for. And she had gone through the consulate on a trip to Italy to the conference in the past. And so she said, melody, I'm sending you an email. It says, free trip to Italy. Apply. And two weeks later, I was in Italy.

I think the reason nobody answered that. I don't know how it went for you, Michael. Did you get a free trip to Italy email as well?

I did. I just had to pay for my airfare.

Oh, I didn't have to pay for my airfare.

That's why I was business class.

Oh, yes. That's what we call them now. But what I will say is, two weeks later, I was in Italy, which was, like, my dream. It's the only country, I feel like, in Europe that I had had to skip when I was 18. So it was, like, fulfilling a huge dream. Was this 2019, I think. And to be honest, Michael, I actually think we did meet in New Orleans at one of the original huge things.

Yeah.

You wouldn't remember, but I was the only girl there.

I imagine that's how we remember You?

Yeah. No, it wasn't the only girl. Charity is going to be listening, and she'll probably. Anyway, there were other women there. But when I did meet you, I remember being like, whoa, this guy is not going to like me because I am a weirdo and I'm not from Texas, and I don't look fancy the way that he looks fancy.

He always looks fancy. He does always look fancy.

Really? I never think of myself that way.

Of course you don't, because you're from, like, you know.

Yeah.

And then I found out you're just, like, really gentle and kind, and you're not intimidating. No offense, Michael. And we always wish that people would

think it was intimidating. Yeah.

That's why people always laugh at me when I try to make a point like a man.

Yeah. Well, the thing about you, though, that's really fun is that you and I think. I don't know how differently we think anymore. Definitely back then had very different upbringings and value system. Not value systems, because our values are so similar, but our political beliefs were very, very different. And because I try to be open and you try to be open, we were able to establish a really good friendship, probably because we spent a week in Italy together with our other friends. And I don't know if it would have happened otherwise.

I would tend to agree. I don't think it. I don't think it would have otherwise, because we would have just met in passing. We would have had brief conversation and.

And you would have judged me.

Melody. I don't think that's the kind of guy Michael is. That's one of the parts about him.

And maybe. I don't know, but I am a weirdo, so in a way. And I feel like you were very accepting once you got the hang of it, of who I am. And we just really grew to love each other. Like, we're good friends. And I just. Every time I'm in Texas, I'm like, want to go get a meal with Michael? Or. So I'm excited to have you here because I feel like we've had a lot of great conversations over the years.

I think that now we tend to send each other memes that are of a political nature to poke each other with love. Like, we don't do it out of, like, this is what I believe, and you have to believe it. It's just like, we're making fun of each other, but in a loving.

Which is actually kind of my favorite kind of friendship. The ones that, like, take the friendship more seriously than the details is There

anything else you want to add, Michael? Because I have a short memory.

Well, I mean, definitely. Italy was. It was amazing. It's probably the least amount of sleep I've ever gotten in a three day period. You need to stay longer. I had to go back.

You were only there three days.

I was only there three days and I had to go back to a friend of mine's 25th wedding anniversary. So I flew back to DFW, went to bed, got up the next morning and flew to Vegas.

Okay, now you went from Italy to Vegas? Like, listen, dude, here's the thing.

I have little Italian.

I know. Yeah, I know they have like the. Whatever it's called.

That was an experience. But I will say, the last night, it was such an amazing country. On top of that and the history and to have the representative, the guy that. I don't remember his name, you. I think you.

I see his face.

He knew all about.

Was it Venice or Verona?

Yeah, we were in Verona. That's where we stayed. He knew so much. History took us around. And I will never forget walking down a marble street that was eroded by weather and chariots and the veins in the marble that had gotten deep from the weather. I just didn't realize marble could weather like that and how long it would take to do that. I think he said this. I forget how long it was.

It was hard to imagine, at least for me, coming from, you know, the U.S. that has, you know, unless it's from the Indians or something that predates, you know, 1776 or, you know, whenever we came here.

Long, long ago. Yes.

We don't have that kind of history here that you could go look at.

Yeah, you like drive down the street in Philadelphia and you're like, wow, this is so old.

But, you know, it was a great trip because that was really close because we actually shared some personal stuff with her. I remember that now. I completely forgot about that. And she was giving me advice and

it was horrible advice, by the way, for you, your specific situation. Well, I was thinking, I was telling you to bring us very special personalized gift for your wife. At the time, not knowing anything about this woman at all. She did not like that. She wanted like, what, Versace and like Gucci and that's not Melody.

Well, it's true. You're spoiled with that, what he gave her.

I'm like, this is the most romantic gesture that you could ever give anybody name.

Anybody name.

No, it would have been any. I swear to God. It would have been so many different women would have been like, wow, it

really was a great trip that last. In the last night there. So I think. I think we had three nights there. The first night was probably like four hours of sleep. Second night, probably three or four again. And what would happen is Mel would get a bottle of wine and she'd want me to keep talking to her. And so.

Drinking wine, it couldn't have been wine. No. She picked my brain more than anybody I've ever did.

Well, I think I thought you were like the richest person I've ever met before. And so I just decided this about you. And I'm like, how do you become successful?

He's like, Michael Hinderleiter owns powerwash.com.

yes.

Like, poor people don't own URL. Also, his shirts are all buttoned up, you know, like, he's the richest person.

I'm kind of like making a little bit of a joke, but I think I felt like you really understood business in a way that I don't.

I remember that. Yeah. You asked a lot of business questions too. Yeah. Last night there, I think we. It was probably 4am before we went to bed and I had a 5am ride catch. And so I knew, like, I can't go to bed. I've got to stay awake for an hour so I can catch the car ride.

And then in the car ride over, there was another person that was in the group with us. And it was the hardest ride of my life, trying to stay awake and not fall asleep while they were talking to me because I didn't want to be rude.

Texas gentleman right there. Yeah. So that's our special history.

Well, Michael, now that you've been introduced by both of us and we've all fond over you, there is a sign up@soulpodcast.com for the fan club of Michael Hinderlider.

Right.

But in all seriousness, Michael, can you kind of give us a quick background of like, who you were growing up and kind of what you thought and then how you found yourself in your dad's business?

My dad was in the Air Force and so we traveled a lot when I was younger. I barely have those memories because I was so young. But, you know, I was born in Wichita, Kansas, and you know, then we went to New Hampshire, Arizona, that kind of stuff. And I kind of. Because we moved so much, it was kind of like whenever fall came around, I thought we were going to move. So we just kind of. That's how much we were moving. And then we ended up again in Wichita.

And my dad, he was being in the Air Force. And then he would left the Air Force and started practicing his engineering degree there at the airline manufacturers there in Wichita, Kansas. Boeing and Cessna at the time. And I think he worked for both of them, actually. Anyway, long story short, and I didn't know this for years, but he finally shared with me one day that the reason he got out of it is because he's tried to start a union and it failed. And he knew he'd be blackballed in the industry. So he decided to, you know, he needed to do something else. And I don't know how he stumbled across power washing or, you know, how he came into it, but he met a guy that was doing that service and he worked for the guy for six months for free to learn how to do it with the understanding that he would never compete with him in Wichita, Kansas.

So my mom found that the two corridors, highway corridors that came through Fort Worth and Dallas were I 30 and I 45 and I 35 and I 20. All those meet here in Dallas and Fort Worth. So he knew it was going to be a growth spot. So that's how we ended up moving here.

And tricks on him. Everybody's flying now. Nobody cares about those roads anymore. Just kidding.

Yeah, so, you know, that's how we ended up here. And he started power washing business and I grew up in it.

Now, the power washing business, was it fleet washing at the beginning or was it not fleet washing at the very beginning?

It was fleet washing. It was building. Fleet washing and building. And I don't know that he did much of anything else outside of that. He had a partner for a short period of time when he first started and that they embezzled. So he dropped that partner. And then eventually he came on with another partner who was an excellent salesman, and he got him a bunch more. He really grew the business.

And eventually, you know, my dad kind of sidetracked into.

We have a problem with sales.

I was gonna say, he's a great salesman. Oh, he sold you good.

Yeah, yeah, that's what we're. Both of our heads went, oh, yeah,

he was a good partner, at least for my dad, for time being. And then my dad segued into manufacturing equipment. And long story short, I ended up working for my dad summers and weekends because I got in too much trouble if I wasn't working for him summers and weekends. And my dad couldn't manage me otherwise. So I was kind of like having to work because it was also being babysitted not to get in trouble. So I learned a skill at the same time I could fix a power washer. I knew how to diagnose it and all that. And then when I was a senior in high school, I didn't want to work for dad anymore and I decided I was going to start my own power washing business.

And you know, I got into fleet washing because I could do it on the weekends while I was going to high school. And January 1985, I think January 2nd, I washed my first gravel truck and tractor. It was my first job, I'll never forget it. And my dad out there kind of giving me some instruction and the driver, you know, just nitpicking me to death, you know, and getting a really cheap price. But, you know, it was a learning curve, you know, because a lot, you know, didn't have a lot of training back then and I was stubborn, so I didn't. A lot of times I didn't listen to what my dad said. I had to go figure it out on my own. Hear, hear.

Yeah, I didn't take a lot of advice, but I remember my lessons a lot better, I can tell you that. That's how I got into it and grew from there. Fleet washing went on to get an accounting degree and graduated with that 91. And then relatively over about a two year period of kind of playing and not really getting serious in 93, the environmental side of things started hitting our industry. And literally there were a lot of people at that time that said they were just going to close up shop, they weren't going to deal with it. It's not the mindset you have today. It was so different.

What do you mean when you say the environmental hit? Like what does that even mean?

When you had to recover your wash water and enforcement was coming down, that was being enforced by the EPA and it was called non point source, which means it wasn't from a manufacturing facility or it was created out in the open, so to speak. And you know, we were part of that influencing non point source. So if something flowed from a facility or outflowed from sewage, that's a point source. If we're washing a building or washing a parking lot that gets captured from a rain event and it's not a point source anymore, it's just spread out all over the place. That makes sense.

First of all, just for people who are listening who don't know anything about power washing, fleet washing, because I didn't know before I started power washing. Fleet washing is when you wash trucks and other things, fleet of vehicles. And then what Michael's saying is that basically. Yeah. It's not being captured in a contained way. Right, Michael? Where it's going right into the ground or it's going somewhere where it should be.

Right. So that started hitting our industry.

If you're caught breaking those rules. This is the part where you say people don't fiddle with it. You know, if you. Everyone knows who OSHA is. This is like the OSHA of the environment. Like, they're like the. We just came on your job site and we saw some of this make it into the rainwater storm drains, kiss your butt goodbye. Are we kind of on the right track?

Pretty much, yeah. Back then, you would get generally a. A warning and notice before they would find you. Nowadays, there's a good chance you could get fined right from the first time they catch you doing anything and they don't care if you did or didn't know about it. Ignorance doesn't help enough. People should know about it nowadays. But I saw that as an opportunity. So I started developing ways to recover wash water.

And then my dad would use the things that I helped develop. Sometimes he was part of it, sometimes it wasn't, but then he would sell it to the industry. And then he started meeting with APA officials and local and state, and he was putting BMPs and guidelines together. And when he went to meet with public officials, they wouldn't meet with him as a business that he had to be part of an organization. So that's when he started PWA Power Washers in North America. At first I was like, yeah, I don't want anything to do with that. But then I think a couple of my local competitors were going to be on the board. Oh, no, they can't be on the board and I'm not going to be on the board.

Right.

I'm like, all right, man, I'll volunteer. I'll be on the board. Ended up being on the board for like 16 years. So, you know, PWD side. And then I eventually got into kitchen exhaust cleaning. That was in 95. And then in 2010 when my dad retired, I bought into that. That's what powerwash.com is today.

And your dad was like a legend in the industry. He is like, everybody loved your dad. And I didn't ever really. I met your dad maybe once at an event or something.

But the industry was his joy. It really was. He loved his. The business so much. It was his heart and soul. And, you know, it was tough when he retired because I had to watch and I, you know, we'll talk a little about A little bit. I don't say a whole lot, but some of the people in the industry that just badgered him and just did everything they could to destroy his name when he did retire and he actually got dementia. And I watched other people, you know, try to influence him and get in, you know, and I kept like, dad, just get away from those people.

Don't involve yourself in it. It was hard to watch. It was really hard to watch. And then not only was I under fire from, whatever you want to call them, bullies, but then I was under fire from my dad, too.

That's weird, because I was going to ask you the question. Did. It was a lot of pressure growing up as, like, pressure washing royalty. What was that like? And then you just actually went the opposite way. It's like, oh, it sucks. Like, everybody was just like, badger.

Yeah. No, it. You know, it was. I got. And even my daughter says it sometimes. It was kind of cool, dad, to go with you to advance. It was cool to go with my dad to advance because, you know, everybody knew I was, you know, they valued what I said, but I never felt like I kept my mouth shut. I wasn't a person that would try to take advantage of that position.

I've always. At least I've always tried to be humble at heart and modest. And sometimes, too, I've had people tell me you're that to a fault and you should take advantage of the things that you've got to, you know, promote more. But that's just. It's not really my personality and I. I want to prove myself through good efforts just the way I've always been.

I would say that's true about you, Michael.

You're very humble, soft spoken to a fault. I think that. Yeah.

Well, that's wisdom, though. Don't you find when people, sometimes they're just. They're dumb, but sometimes the people who are holding in the words and when they say words, they're like, oh, they know a lot more than they have to.

I think we're the opposite of what we don't like, you know, who becomes. So I don't like that in other people, so I don't do it myself.

And if I could put a name to that, because I have a problem with loudmouths as well. Like people who want to just speak, to hear their voice and to, like, feel like they have to be an authority on everything.

I feel called out.

Well, I could. I could introduce some people.

Melody.

Yeah.

Phil.

Offset. But, yeah, I think we have that in common, Michael. I Think actually Melody probably has a little that Ditto.

Yes. I think that's been a common theme in all of our lives in a way.

I think it's in everybody's life, though, really. It doesn't matter what your vantage point is in life or where you are. I think it's very common that people, even if you have no problems in life, you are going to find problems in life, because the way our brains work, we are wired to fix problems, and if there aren't problems around, we create problems there. If you're not aware of that, it can really create a lot. It a lot of problems for you.

Yeah, we just talked about that last.

You can make your own issues.

Let's sort of shift. Michael, like, right now, it sounds like, man, you conquered business. Your dad got you on the ground floor, and then you blew it up and did it on your own right alongside of him. And then you got married. We didn't get to that part.

Yeah, I was pretty shy guy growing up, and I didn't have many dating experiences that lasted longer than two months for most of my life. I did have one, probably six or eight months when I was in college, but for the rest of the time, I didn't. And honestly, a lot of that was because I was so focused on work. A lot of times, like, work always came first. Building my success and grinding was where I focused so much of my energy. I remember after I was married, a friend of mine had his birthday party in my house, and, you know, some friends from college were there. One of the guys goes, man, I didn't think you would ever get married. You always talked about how that was such a waste of time and.

And I didn't even remember saying it. I thought it was funny. Yeah. So you have these experiences in life, and, you know, so I got married, had my daughter, and of course, eventually that ended.

Real quick. Let's stay in the honeymoon phase for just a minute. All right, so Melody and I talk about our spouses a lot in this podcast. It's. There's so much of a yin and yang going on with our spouses. Rachel is everything I need to not fall over. You know what I mean? Like, she's, like, she's stable. She has the perspective that I would never think to have just so much right.

And I do attribute a lot of my success to, and I'll even say a lot of my happiness to my marriage. Melody, would you add anything to that as far as, like, this kind of honeymoon perspective?

I'm very grateful for Matt Because I don't love chaos, but I tend to feel most comfortable in it, which is

why its way to you making new

businesses if it's too unstressful or whatever. But Matt's a very moored person. He's somebody who is very grounded and I trust him. And so it's good when we have a good relationship and I just feel like I'm an independent person and so having a marriage where I'm allowed to be trusted and you know, he tries to support me and to grow my business. It's unusual. Both of you are men who grew businesses to take care of your family and mine is flipped. And so I don't know. I'm very grateful for that and I'm lucky.

Yeah.

And since it's an entrepreneurial podcast here at the sole proprietor podcast, go to our website. Anyway, here we really talk about a lot of these things as it relate to business. So when you got married, you'd obviously been going since high school for your own company. What was your entrepreneurial life like being married? And then also maybe what was. If you could speak a little bit to the appeal of, you know, your wife when you, or I guess you've been your girlfriend at the particular time when you decided to get engaged.

I love that question, actually. So from a very young age, I wasn't one of those guys that like was running amok and didn't know what they want to do with their life. My earliest memories was that I wanted to have a child when I was 19 or 20 and I wanted a girlfriend early in life so I could make that happen. But it just never happened. And my mind was always focused on being able to provide and to build that wealth and have something so that it would be easier for my kids, it would be easier for us as a family. And that's why I work so hard. And it's always in my mind like if I could get, just get to this point or this point, at this

point, those are the lies I tell myself as a dick all the time. I have the same liar in my head. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry.

And so it just always be like, okay, if I could get here, then then I can focus more on the personal life. Then it gets to that point, you know, you're 20, you're 26, 25 or whatever and haven't really had any long term serious relationships out of college. And you're like, oh, now I don't run into people that often because I'm working all the time. So it becomes challenging. And then it just, you know, for whatever reason, this family moved in across the street and I started dating the daughter and things went from there and you know, it was lovely. We dated for two years and got married and it was very pleasant because she was such a happy person. She knows she's always in a good mood and I enjoyed being around their family. It was just a different experience from what I had because they were all very social all the time and got together and I craved that family time.

So it was very pleasant.

So was she entrepreneurial? Like was she risk averse or was she like cool with like going all

in, risk averse and very glue collared. So my entrepreneurial drive, and I guess the terminology today is, you know, a high value man, you know, but I use that term loosely because it's just the drive and if you're a person that's not used to being around someone who has that constant drive because the Drive is an 8 to 5, the drive is 24 7, it doesn't turn off. That's not a switch that you flip.

That's a truth bomb. I felt that one.

Yeah, yeah. And you can't help it, really. I'll rephrase it. You can turn it off for short periods of time and it can be relaxing. But you know, probably around the two week mark, at least the two week mark. I mean there were times where I was off and I was about to lose it at two weeks. I've taken some three week breaks now that I'm older and it's, it's not bad, but younger at two weeks, man, I couldn't handle it. Like I was so ready to get back to work and just push.

But anyway, we can have that. You know, when I'd come home at night, you know, well, she worked with me. So we were together 247 for. I think we were either married seven or eight years before our daughter was born. So we were together 247 and daughter's born. We. And I was like, we're bringing her to work, she's going to come to work with us.

Holy cow.

And at lunch, you know, lunch was my favorite time. We take her to lunch, come back from lunch and I would take a nap in my desk chair with my daughter on my chest. And we had a public wash bay at that time. So drivers would come in and the drivers all knew us as the couple with the baby and everyone knew us as that young couple that owned the truck wash. So that was pretty cool.

That's a ton of time. You're 24, 7. Bring your daughter to work. That's a lot of time for people to be in that pressure cooker together. So just kind of putting a little pin in that right now.

There were some challenges at time, but for whatever reason, the dynamic shifted. Where she stopped respecting me or didn't want me to be the leader anymore, where she wanted to be in control. And you know, eventually it was like, okay, well, you're going to stay home. Because her daughter's getting older, she can't stay in the office and sleep in a crib or staying, you know, cooped up. You know, she gets to be about three to four years old. So then, you know, that separation happened. And when that separation happened, the dynamic and security in the relationship, at least for her, it didn't so much for me, but for her, went away.

So was she working still in the business with you up until Caitlin was about three or something or.

She worked full time in the business up until Caitlin was about three and was, you know, getting around a lot more. You really couldn't keep her cooped in office. She needs to go do stuff.

And children shouldn't be raised in an office, Michael.

No, I agree. I totally agree. And that's going outside.

This is young Michael, so we know I was a different breed.

I totally agree with that though. And so, you know, we parted and so kind of what happened was I would take Tuesdays off to stay with our daughter and then she would go to work and do the books on Tuesday and she'd get it done. She was sharp. I mean, she could learn stuff fast. I always felt like her talent was. There's so much she could have done with her talent if she would applied it and any kind of career or business, she's such a smart woman. But that wasn't her drive. It wasn't what she wanted to do.

And still today, that's not who she is. You know, of course I push that and I always try to get her to do a business and be more like doing the things that. But it always failed and it always met with frustration for both of us.

Yeah, I can't imagine getting Matt. I mean, even if I say, come do business with me, that is his horror. So, yeah, I don't see that happening.

So, you know, I kind of made that a long story. But eventually it ended in divorce. I had a lot of high expectations and, you know, for any woman that's listened to this, if you find yourself, and even for a man that was someone who's highly driven and motivated, you know, for achieving goals outside of, you know, how that operating the family, There's a lot of expectations that are going to be put on you because you're going to be held to a very high standard, and that can break people.

How long did it take you to understand your role in, you know, because I imagine that must have been very difficult for both of you. As you went through that divorce. Were you feeling at the time, like, were you able to understand?

No. I mean, I think this is important to say, too. She will deny it, but she was caught having an affair. But there's reasons those happen and you're both at fault. And I think the first time I heard that said, it really bothered me a lot. I was really upset by it because I was like, no, that's not true. But if you start thinking, you know, at a deeper level at your relationship and how well you bond and stuff, if you're in. In it, like you should be in a marriage, that would not happen.

So I feel like we're up to the part where you and your wife, like, how did that change the way that you worked? Because now you are not living with your wife and child anymore. I mean, you're very, very close to your daughter. That's one of the things I really admire about you is how close you are to. What do we call her? We call her Sunshine, mostly. You do, and I love that. But, like, how did that change for you?

It was challenging, especially because I did try very hard to stop the divorce because I remember thinking, I didn't want another man raising my daughter. That was my role in her life. No other person has the right to take that or even influence that. So it was really hard. I think the turning point for me when I said I'm out and this has to end is when I started seeing a counselor and I described what was going on. She goes, you're in the early stages of depression. And I was like, oh, no, that's not me. I will never be depressed because I could be happy.

I don't have to be depressed. I know how to be happy.

Right.

Nobody tells me that I get to be depressed.

Right? Yeah, that kind of fast forward the acceptance of the divorce at that point and moving forward. So, you know, we went through that and then so the dynamic changed a lot. And, you know, so you get your daughter every other weekend and 1st, 3rd and Thursdays and Fridays, you know, that's kind of how it worked. Or every Thursday, I should say, and first, third or fifth weekends of the month. And I think those Kind of vary a little bit depending on. But that's what it was for me. I always made a point that free time, unless work, like a trade show or something came up, that was her time. And it was very hard for me to allow that to be taken away or given it up.

That was important to me. It was important to me to have. I learned from my grandfather on my mom's side how to have open conversations and be very real. Because I spent a few summers at my grandfather with him. I think I was 10, 11, and 12 those summers, and we had very similar personalities, and he was always a talker, and he was very good at getting to know people. And so he talked to me a lot. I kind of learned. Not that I would agree with all the things that he did in his life, but he taught me how to have a conversation as an adult with a child.

How you relate to it seems so simple to me at the time. And sometimes I think people really overthink it because they try so hard to connect. And it's not really about trying to connect. It's just having a conversation and just being relaxed and, you know, and sometimes your kid doesn't want to talk to you, but maybe they need space, and you just kind of keep prodding along and you keep asking questions, and at some point, they begin to open up more, and you keep staying supportive. And that's kind of what I did with my daughter. And the other thing that had impressed upon me is that there was a. It was right around the time she was born or shortly after, I was in a Sunday school class at our church, and somebody said something about women marry men, or they're attracted to men who are like their dad. And so if you want your daughter to marry the right person, you've got to be the dad that would be that man to your daughter.

And so that impacted me a lot. So I really tried to focus on that. And even today, she calls me up and we have conversations about very serious topics, and sometimes it's things that I don't want to talk about.

So when you basically had this all sort of changed in your life, like. And, you know, we talked to Bobby, and I know you know Bobby, but you haven't listened to the podcast as of right now. But Bobby kind of described his depression as, like, going into, like, a deep hole. And it's really kind of hard to listen to because, I mean, I was there with him. Maybe that's part of it. But, like, as someone who's never before I ever experienced any Sort of depression, like it was just sad. And then when you have been through it, it's not just sad, it's like so much more. And the empathy versus sympathy side of it for me is big.

Do you want to take a minute to just sort of describe what your life trajectory was like in terms of happiness and maybe fulfillment or all that?

Just quick. You know, I talked about divorce. I went through another marriage of divorce, taking over my dad's business, dealing with the industry, and then me and my dad became estranged. And that was all challenging. But talking about depression, depression, people talk about time being your most valuable asset. And I completely disagree. Your mind is your most valuable asset. And keeping your mind in a good space is the most important thing you can do because it affects your time, how you enjoy your time.

It affects everyone around you. And so anything you can do to get your mind in a good space and keep it healthy, I think is extremely, extremely important. And the way I describe depression, it's like being in a pit and you're looking up, you can't get out, but you just feel this pressure on you that hold you at the bottom of that pit. And you want to reach up and grab the edge, but you can't grab that edge because it's so far above you and you think you're never going to get out of it. That's how I visualize it and see it in my head. And this is going to sound funny. I had a music teacher in second grade when we first moved to Burleson. My dad started the business here.

And you're going to know the answer to this because I've said too much. But she would say to the students in the classroom, like, first time she said, is, because who's the one person you can't run away from? You know, in second graders, the police know you can run away. My parents know you can run away. God will know that God doesn't count as not a person. And she goes, you can't run away from yourself. And at two years or in second grade, I thought, that is the stupidest ass thing I've ever heard before. I remembered it because I thought it was so stupid. I was in my 20s or 30s before I understood what she was trying to tell us.

And that's kind of where your mind, you know, and the whole thing comes in. She wasn't saying it so much as it had to do with keeping good mental space as it was in, which does relate to this, and that is be a good person. Because when you do bad Things, they follow you and they live in your subconscious. They stay there. And if you lie to yourself about things and try to cover them up, they stay there. They keep eating at you until you face the truth. And you've deal with those things in a healthy manner to help you let go.

Can I ask a question about. It's going to go a little tiny bit back, but it's something that I hear so often from men who are entrepreneurs, which is the. I'm doing it for my family. You know, when your marriage broke up, I'm imagining up until that point you had had that messaging of, I'm doing this for you guys, you know?

Yeah. Yes.

I'm assuming that you have made a shift in that belief system. But like, how did you get to the point where you understood it was deeper than that?

You know, because that's purpose. Your purpose gets broke. And then when your purpose is broke, you want to give up. When I went through the first divorce, I had to keep reminding myself that I had to be there for my daughter. I couldn't give up. Not only did I have to be there for her, and I mean, everybody has like glimpses of suicide when they're depressed, but, you know, acting on that, there's a totally different thing. But if you try to hold on to things that try to get that, you don't want to work that out of your head.

Yeah. You make it about other people, you know, which can be a good thing or a bad thing. It can either be like, nobody wants me around. I'm a big burden to them. But the other side of that, and this is true for me as well, is I can't let all these people down. That's what would get me out of bed in the morning.

And it has to be. You can't let people down that you truly care about. It can't be like, oh, I can't let down all my customers. You know, that's a pride thing. Right. That's not real. It has to be more like your family, like my daughter was to me at that time. That's what really pulled me through and helped me get out of it.

So when I went through the first one, I didn't really get over things. And the way, you know, you don't get over things is it's your mental default. What's your mental default go to every day? You know, what do you ruminate over? What happens when you're driving down the freeway and you're in autopilot? Where does your mind start playing? Where does it go to. So, you know, and for whatever reason, all these things I've talked about, I don't really have any of those thoughts from my first marriage anymore because I've passed that. But occasionally I'll find myself arguing with the bullies in the industry or trying to prove my case to my dad, or thinking about what happened with my ex wife and really trying to get my step kids to help them understand why I had to leave and couldn't stay in that relationship anymore because they don't talk to me anymore. So it was very challenging to get through that. And when I started realizing that default loop only keeps you in that bad space, you have to learn how to break the default loop.

So I'm a divorced lady when I was young and it was really hard, I was very angry because it wasn't my choice. And I remember that one of my friend's mothers had also divorced and she never, ever, ever got over it. She was a very bitter woman. That was my wake up call was like, oh, I don't want to be like that exactly. Because it became her life, it became her just identity. And that was kind of what helped me to get through it and forgive and be able to meet Matt. Like I don't think I would have been able to marry Matt and have a healthy relationship if not for the work. And even though it's not a great thing, I am grateful to my friend's mother because she did help me.

You know what I mean?

You were wise because you learned from somebody else even though they didn't realize how you.

No, but that I didn't want to be that bitter person. We've all seen people who can stay in that place.

Well, not to mention that I think that we're all, all of us to a degree are wired to want to learn from our own mistakes and our own experiences. And some of us are more okay with learning from other people's experiences. I have a kid that I was so worried about drugs for. I mean, I'll be honest, I still. He doesn't have a ton of self control, but I feel like he's made it a long way, you know, down his life. And that's one thing. We've just tried to put the fear of God in him, to not have to learn that through his own experience. But by and large that's just how he learns.

And he has dyslexia. So Melody, you know, resonates with that. Michael, do you have ADHD or dyslexia

or anything like that?

It's Weird because occasionally I will kind of flip things around. I don't know if that really had dyslexia. I've never been diagnosed with anything but my daughter was diagnosed with adhd and I was like, that's kind of how I was and all that.

It is genetic.

They say hereditary and entrepreneurs do just for the pressure cooker I was talking about earlier, like adhd. People kind of like thrive in a pressure cooker usually.

So I don't mean to interrupt you, I'll let you finish your story, but I will give you something that happened. Well, now I'm too far down the road. So I got on Alexa Pro for about two months and Lexapro completely chilled me out. But guess what I couldn't do.

What?

You didn't hustle.

Like I could see moves in the company. I could see how people would work and I would see four, five or six moves past and I just thought everybody could do that. But when I got Alexa Pro, I couldn't, I couldn't process, I couldn't think, I couldn't answer people's questions anymore. I was like, I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I don't know how they would react. It was like, I can't run my business, I gotta get off this stuff. Because my mind would just process and see so many different things so fast. So I couldn't do it.

Well, that is like the thing we do have to think. We are always like, we're always looking so many steps ahead at all of the possible outcomes and yeah, yeah, relaxed people don't have to do that. Well, probably living in the moment and

a lot of other people who are really good at like supporting and stuff like that, a lot of times they're just like, they're so thankful that there's someone that can keep giving them orders down the road because that's not what they.

That's true.

Live. And so my son does sort of look way ahead and he can negotiate things even before it's time to negotiate, like he's ready to go. But I say all of this because you know, before your marriage you're a certain person. Then you got married and you became as we do, right? You became a new person. And as life sort of leads you down this path then you get this like trauma. And I've never been through a divorce personally, but like I just trying to put a little sympathetic flavor here and like trying to imagine it, it seems like it would be very trauma inducing which would lead to further self development.

It does.

And that self experience, like you said earlier, I like how you said it. Like, yeah, I usually learn my own lessons. I remember them a lot longer because I, you know, like, that statement, like, really resonated for me because it's the same reason I make my kids pay for, like, real big ticket items. Like, I'm not going to go buy them a big ticket item so that they can just, you know, take it for granted.

Yeah, because they don't feel it.

And experiences are the same and life wisdom is the same. You can't give someone wisdom, really.

I'm beginning to reflect back on those experiences with pleasure. Even though they were hard and tough, there was so much that I learned from. And so. And it's made me such a better person. And I have so much more wisdom and insight. And I caution anybody for making this prayer because I did this when my teens. I prayed for wisdom and I got it.

Maybe that's why we're friends, because I always sought wisdom. I just thought, like, I'll just ask old people, like, how to do all the things. Not talking about you, Michael, of course. But I did, and I realize now what you just said, I never really thought about it that way. But I have to learn at least twice the hard way to remember it because I'm an optimist with a bad memory.

And just imagine life reflecting back on life. That's just this steady constant of nothing, just this blah. I mean, this is the real life when you're doing this. It's the roller coaster that makes life.

It does.

It makes me think of the question where a lot of people view heaven as like this stasis that you reach that's like, really wonderful. And, you know, you're blowing a horn and petting animals. And I'm just curious throughout all this, and if you're not comfortable this, we can edit out or don't have to do this question. But I'm just curious where this left you. Sort of like with your relationship with God and sort of your spiritual outlook on life.

Or shouldn't we ask him, does he have a relationship with God?

Well, that. That makes no question.

Well, that's a good question. Both are good questions. I grew up going to church, as I laugh at this, because when I was very young, probably about three or four years old, I found a dead bird. And I told my parents and my grandparents that God was going to bring the bird back. My dad and my mom told me that's not going to happen through the trash. My grandma went and got it Put in a plastic bag so I could see that it wasn't coming back.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

And that's how you learned about death.

I don't know if that. How much that affected me or not, but I remember at one point telling my parents that I didn't believe in God. And it could have been shortly after that, my parents freaked out. But, you know, I probably have. I go through phases. I go back and forth at times. And so I think those are some conversations that I actually had at Bobby a couple of times too, years ago. But I don't really talk about that a lot.

But I. Sometimes I question it and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I really believe it and. But I do think at my core I do. I know at my core that I do believe there's a God. I do believe that there's a God. I. Part of what I do now is part of my healing process and the particular time of day that I pray.

So that's kind of like the highlight of healing because it involves meditation and stuff. But there's a build up to why I do it at a certain time. You know, when I went through the first marriage, I was mad at God for a long time after that. I was mad because I felt like I did everything right. And why did this happen to me? It's not right. I was a good person. I did. And I was very engaged.

And so after that, I didn't live like I did before with such conviction. I was like, if that's how life is going to be, then I might as well just not care and not follow, not be such a rule follower, so to speak. And it led me down some bad paths. Ultimately, I would say that those paths probably had a lot to do with the ending of my second marriage. But it takes two to go down the path that we ended up going down. So regardless, we divorced. But I don't go to church a lot today. But I find I do believe in praying regularly and asking for guidance and praying for people that most people probably wouldn't think I would pray for because they're not in my life anymore.

And that includes both my exes. I pray for them every day. I pray for my daughter, I pray for my granddaughter. I pray for people who I believe I had an influence on in my life and had been around in my life and still have a place in my heart for them, even though they're not part of my life. I think it's important to do that and I think it's part of a healing process. Too, to do that.

On this podcast, we talk about spirituality a lot because I think a lot of it. We both agree that it affects how we do our business. I think Curt and I both agree that technically there really isn't an ROI on integrity in business. You know, it's not a high roi, and yet that's what we continue to do. Right?

The ROI is within your soul.

Yes. But that's a very long term view. And in the short earthly term, that doesn't feel good.

It's actually daily.

What I mean, I'm trying to pay my mortgage with my integrity. And.

Yes, you can't pay your mortgage with integrity.

I know what you're saying. I'm just saying that it's. You can put your head on your

pillow at night and feel okay about it.

Yeah, yeah. And your mental space is healthy, so you act right in other ways. It feeds that.

I maybe overthink it. I like your way of thinking about it.

I know you do.

I know you think I do. But

you know that I think and

you know that I know what I

say on this podcast is I think I might not believe in God anymore, but I know that I'm going to hell for that thought. And Curt, tell him what you say, because I forget what it is, but it's the thing that I think is most powerful, which is faith has no something.

Oh, oh, oh. Truth fears no test. Is that what.

Yes, that. Sorry, Faith. Truth.

You know, but with that, with that, I'll also say along with faith, I was reading the book by Dan Martell. He says fear is just thinking about what might happen in the future. That scares you. And faith is thinking about what might happen in the future. That's awesome. You know, like, that's like bad summary of it. But anyway, and I have faith. And you know, you mentioned that you believe there's a God.

And I've kind of come to a place in my belief. We've talked on here before where I am quite certain that there's a God. I feel my certainty levels are fairly high. But that God that I'm fairly certain of, I'm also quite certain that he's not a very good marketer for an all powerful dude. And so that's helped me to give a lot of grace to people that previously I've been like, well, Michael, if you believe in God, why the heck aren't you going to church? Well, because God probably didn't, like, make it super obvious what he expects of you in terms of church. But maybe another question that we could ask that. I'm wondering if you do have anything, if you do believe there's a God, do you believe that he has. Like, is there something for you that he does expect of Michael Hinderlider? Not all mankind, but just for you.

If there is a relationship there. And you. Because there's also a way to know there is a God. But he's not even aware of me. I'm just some creation that spawned out of nothing. There's people who believe that, too. But do you have any thoughts around that?

That's a deep question.

He makes me think about it different than. I mean, so what his expectation would be of me?

Yeah, like, if you were to live up to his expectation of you.

Well, what is yours? Curt, give Michael an example.

Okay.

I don't want him to answer because I don't want to influence what you think.

Okay, go.

So I believe God plants in our hearts in a understanding of right and wrong, and that it is. And if we follow that, it leads us to where he expects us to go. And if I'm doing in living my life to my potential, at least what I think my potential is, then I'm living His will of what he expects me to do. And that means, you know, like, not taking advantage of people, doing the right thing, having integrity. And through that, I set an example for others. And others will hopefully live up to that or believe that, you know, that's how they would want to be. And the thing that scares me, I don't pronounce or I don't run my business by saying I'm a Christian because I find that some people that do that, we're all going to do something wrong. But rather people just know that I live in a good manner.

And if they find out I'm a Christian and they know that, hey, that's something he follows or he believes in the belief system. Because I find that. And it's unfortunate, it's something that has the people to try to cover up bad deeds, say there's something that they aren't. And so you. I find people that say they're Christian really aren't Christians. They pretend to be Christians. And for me, I don't like saying it and publicly pronouncing it, though I do know that God says that we should do that we should say that we do. But it's just how I've experienced life.

So that's influenced me not to press upon it in that manner because I don't want people to see it, that

I think that's the smartest way to live. Because if you are truly trying to. I mean, Curt, it happened again. Somebody tried to save me this week because I'm so open and because of my background, people often try to save me and I just have conversations with them. But I think that is how I want to view Christians. I want to see Christians who are living their belief system, living their values, treating people with integrity and kindness and all the things that Jesus would want. Whether I believe in God or not, like that's how I'm going to respect Christians or anybody of any faith is like living within that value system. So I think that's the best way that you could live.

In my partially ungodly opinion.

Well, I always say it's sweet when someone tries to do that because it shows me their conviction and their care for me and one fell swoop, right? They are sure this is true for them that like, that they've had that witness for them and I think that's powerful. And then for them to care enough about me to like try to bring me in on it, I think you can take it to a point where you're like militant about it and it's not cool anymore. But I think I want to push a little bit on what you said, Michael, and just see if there's something here to dive into. And that is that I think that you have been given a nice, you know, view of what's right and wrong. And I know, I feel the same way about myself and Melody, all company here. But I'm pretty sure that there's other people who are just wired that for whatever reason, God didn't give them the innate ability to see right and wrong. I just, there's conditions and it's a small minority, but it's the case. But you have a small minority of strengths given to you.

And I'm curious if you had to face God and account for the weirdness that he gave you. That was special. You know, in, in religion they call it spiritual gifts a lot of times or in the parable is the of the talents, right? Like.

Well, actually, can we just say in the secular, isn't it called talents as well?

Yeah, I was gonna say, what talents have you been given? So in the scriptures, the master gives the servants these talents that are in the form of money that they got to go invest. And then, you know, secularly, I think it's just ironic that the same word, but talents are, you know, these God given strengths or proclivities or whatever that we take out into the world. And I don't know, I think I've known you well enough to know that this probably isn't too hard of a question for you to know that you have some special gifts. What do you think about that for

you personally, what my gifts are.

Yeah. And what sort of accounting you have to those gifts.

I think my communication skills are good and that I was blessed with good communication skills. And there are other times where I think, man, I don't know how to communicate at all.

That's how you probably know you're a good communicator.

Yeah.

But I also think that I've learned to be a good read a read of people and to, you know, I have the ability to give people good advice and guidance. I do think that's a gift and a talent that I got blessed with. And when I become selfish, I'm not good at it. And I have to be careful in that respect. I catch myself doing that and that's kind of scary because I don't want to be in that place. And I know that's what God doesn't want for me to do because it is easy to become selfish with those kind of skill sets. And if you have wisdom and if you can read people and you know how to manage people and life is about creating, win wins for everybody. It's not, I win, you lose.

So I think that's one of them. I would have to think a little more on it. Yeah, I have to be pretty real, real fast.

Yeah, that's the point. But you, I think, are very also good at being accepting of people who are different. I mean, just the way that we have our conversations or whatever. I feel like you're very self aware, but you're also. You allow me to be me. And I think you allow people to be themselves around you.

And being self, aware, I think is a very important thing. And so the terms used loosely, self. Aware. So y' all can take this however you want, but I'll be curious what your interpretation because I know they're going to be able to listen to this podcast. When I say self, aware, they're going to think of self aware means the things I do to make myself better. I'm aware of what I need to work on. That's not real self awareness. Self awareness is when you can see yourself through a third party's eyes and know how you impact that person, how you come across to those people.

That's self awareness.

I think it's both.

It is both. It is both. But it's two different Levels of self awareness. Believe it or not, my daughter pointed this out to me about six months ago and never thought of it that way.

What did she point out?

Well, I would call the first level is self improvement where you see how to make yourself better like physically and whatnot. But self awareness, real true level self awareness comes from seeing yourself in other people's eyes. And that's when that's another level of self improvement that you're able to work on yourself and be who you want to be in other people's eyes.

Well, I would say it a different way than what you just did and I think maybe you can tell me if it's the same. But when I look at the people in the industries that I've worked in, I look at there's so much self development that people do. They read the right books, they're always trying to learn and grow. But it's very superficial to be really self aware. It's painful and it doesn't feel good all the time because you're going to see yourself sometimes in light that is not like who you would want to be.

And sometimes those companies hurt.

Yeah, they do. Yeah, that's the real growth. I feel like we're probably saying the same thing, but I didn't realize that until I really did some work last year. Thinking about it and realizing, oh, we're always reading the same books and people are doing 75 hard and they're like, you know, there's always like I want to grow my mental, my mindset. I think it's shows signs of growth when your thoughts change over time. And I don't always see that in people, you know, when they're just at that surface level of self development and

the social reel looks so great.

Yep. Can I ask you a question? Bringing it to you talked a little bit about your daughter and Caitlin and one of the things I'm so curious about right now is that you are a first time grandfather, which I'm so excited about for you as I am a new auntie who kind of acts like a grandma in a way because my brother's 15 years younger.

Kind of to the extreme. Yes.

Like I got home at 2am, I was there by 8 this morning. What has that done to change? Like how has that changed you? If it has, I actually thought I

was gonna have a much bigger change like when my daughter was born that was such a different experience. They're both huge, huge experiences and I'll never forget the day that one of them were born because those are just Those are wild stones. Those are so impressive. But it's still different. When my daughter was born, it was like a strong feeling of attachment. Super attached with that. Knowing that this is my granddaughter and she has another father, kind of. I'm respectful of that, in a way.

And so the attachment is still there. The protective instinct is still there. But it's like I kind of have to hold my distance in a way.

Yeah. I don't have that respect of my brother.

Oh, but you're holding your distance in order to respect. Not stepping on the toes of.

You're not trying to be the dad. But here's one thing I will say. I'm not tired. And I don't know about you, but when I had my children, I was extremely tired. And for what I'm experiencing right now is a joy of seeing things in a way I could never have seen at that time when. Because it was so stressful, I was so exhausted. Your relationship changes. And that's.

The joy I have right now is like, experiencing this again without the fatigue is like a different experience. It's all joy.

It is. Well, I think mom and dad perspectives are different.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Because moms are more fatigued. And for dads, we would come home fatigued, but it didn't matter how tired we were. We walk in the door and see the smile of our child or that. And then our energy level just comes right back. So having that. That child is just like. That's the energy.

That's what feeds you, and it makes you go and drives you. So. And I'm not saying that that was

not my experience as a mother, but

you're in the meat grinder all day long. Yeah, it's. It wears on you. I can remember my daughter's mom saying, if y' all are gonna make noise and you're gonna go outside, so.

All right, cool.

Let's go outside. And I know that'll come back with my granddaughter. Cause it's. She isn't in the plate. Cause she's still sleeping a lot. So I can't wait for that moment, though.

Well, comes too fast. I think parents nowadays are different than when we were younger because there's much more equality in many regards, or there's never full equality. But I do think, like, watching my brother. His wife went back to work. He has time off. He's with the kid all the time. And that's, like, probably a hard shift for men in a way. And it's also, like, freedom for men as well, to be able to do that.

But I don't think that's the experience you maybe could have had, and it wouldn't have been expected.

Right. I don't know that I like that quality stuff. I think there's a place for it. The man needs to provide and the woman needs to nurture.

And that is our next episode.

Oh. Oh, boy.

Michael's ready to go.

Yeah. It's so funny.

Yeah. But, you know, I probably wouldn't have felt that way 25 years ago, but after what I've been through over the past couple of years and the things that I've kind of discovered along the way, I think it's very important. And I don't say that that's right for everybody, but I feel fairly strongly that that's at least 80%. And there's a lot of people that try to make that work, end up unhappy because of it, because they don't realize that we're. We instinctually have things that are within us, and there's always that percentage that don't have that instinct, but we don't realize it because we're trying to do these things that are political.

Oh, I love that you said that towards the end of the podcast, because now you understand, Curt, why Michael and I can have a lot of their debates and discussions. They're never arguments, but we definitely don't agree on a lot of things. And, Michael, now you have to come back and we have to debate this because it'll be so fun.

There are definitely some things that I want to kind of talk about that happened to me over the past two years. You know, I find myself in a space, mentally, where I have the energy and the drive I did in my 20s and 30s for my business again, I wish I had it. I wish I had that 15 years ago, but I didn't. And I didn't because of all these things that were planning on repeat in my head. I didn't realize, you know, I told myself that they weren't, that I was over it, but it would still come up. And when you do that type of negative repeat or ruinating, you're really in a victimhood mind state. And it's important to get out of that victimhood. And I hear people say, well, you've got to speak to yourself in a good tone.

You have to talk and do these things to help you move through it and kind of kill rumination. But I found the one thing that helped me really kill that ruminating is I'm responsible for where I am. I'm responsible for this place. I am in my life, I'm responsible for everything that happens to me. And I posted that on Facebook a while back, and a couple of people kind of argued with me, and I was like, no.

Was I one of them?

Surely

I knew you were being funny, but here's the point. I mean, bad things happen to everybody. It's how you choose to respond to those situations and how you choose to think about them afterwards, which makes a difference. And if you choose to see it as not about you, because if you make it about you, that's your narcissistic mindset coming out. And if you try to tell yourself that I'm so good and I'm better, and that's your narcissism playing into play. And the first time I heard someone say that, I was like, that's just the craziest thing I've ever heard. But it really is. We think that we're so above or better than those things that can happen to us because they happen to everybody.

And the difference between people who are successful in life and those that aren't is how they choose to respond, because we all have similar things that happen. We all have ways to react to them. Well, the other thing that I started is start romanticizing the things that happened to me, right? Even if they were negative. Romanticize it. You know, make it something that. Look what I learned from that look where it took me. Look where I got over the past couple years.

Interesting. You call it romanticizing it.

Look how all these awesome experience I just went through and I survived it, and the people I met and the things that happened during that time that were good and even though it went in a negative way and didn't end the way I would like it to be, and I. And I missed some of that. I'm not a victim of it. There's something in there, somehow, that I could train you to. And you could even say external things that could happen, like you're in a car crash. I'm just going to use that because I actually know someone's in a really bad car crash, can handle it unbelievably well. And it's when you see stuff, like you start realizing how important it is, how you perceive and start thinking of yourself in different ways. And so, you know, talk about these words of affirmation and glorifying things, romanticizing it.

And we talk about doing that. So when you go into meditation, you're trying to get into a space of being hypnotic, right? And that's how you kind of talk to your Subconscious mind. And it's that being in a hypnotic state is like when you're starting to fall asleep or when you first wake up and you access your subconscious mind. And that's how you change your default mental loop, too, is by speaking to that. And it's also a great time to pray, especially if you're praying about things you want to have happen in your life. And so some people meditate in that period and try to give that space with words of affirmation. But something that happened to me purely by accident about, I want to say, six months ago, is I was doing that, and all of a sudden, like, I felt emotion of my younger self. And so now whenever I'm in that state, I focus on emotion.

I don't focus on words. I focus on emotion. And everybody talks about this. Like, what do people always remember? They remember emotion, they remember emotion. So I started moving myself into this mental state of finding emotion, finding emotion during those periods, along with the prayers I would have and the things that I was doing so that that emotion would come back. And now, like I said, I have this energy and this drive and this joy that's like. It's in my soul again. And almost like a purity of, like, you remember when you were.

Not everybody has this. But when I was in my early 20s, I was like, oh, the world is mine. It's my. You know, it's my. Did not have that clay, right? I got all this time. I'm going to make all these things happen. And I kind of feel that way, though, even though I know I'm toward the end of my years, you know, it's. I've got a lot of assets that I can manage and do things with, but I feel that joy again.

And I remember when I first took the business over for my dad, I was so upset, so mad that I had to do it. And I never really put my heart and soul into it. And I look back at it now, and now I'm. And I had ideas. There were things that have been developed over the past 10 years I thought of 15 years ago. And I'm not saying that to brag. I'm just saying that I had the ideas. I just didn't implement them because I thought, oh, I'll do that tomorrow.

Oh, no one ever figured that out. And I'll just hold that. I'll gatekeep that information until I'm ready to use it.

Curt, you've done that, too, right?

Well, I'm listening to this, and I'm like, those are so Cheap. They're so cheap.

Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Exactly. They are.

Yeah.

I met people who just like, that's all I do is sit around all day long and blow out ideas. But if you don't know which ideas develop and to run with, you know, that's what makes a difference. But I knew these ideas were valuable ideas.

I've actually learned a lot in this conversation about you that I didn't know until you said the thing before that we're going to have you on another episode. I think it'll be when Curt gets a day off. It's. You're not in trouble. I was just thinking, I've felt an evolution from you in many regards. Like if we don't. If you and I do not talk about politics or anything like that, I think it's funny. We have so much commonality.

We always have so much commonality. I feel like even though we're so different.

No, I agree.

Right. And you can still have these very different beliefs when you talk about. You know, anybody can change their mindset if they understand. But it took you until you were older to understand how to do that. Right.

And I think this is one of the gifts that I've been granted to share with other people that.

Would you have understood it when you were younger? Did you have to go through all of those things to learn the lessons?

I wonder that sometimes. And I do get that kind of like the second grade teacher telling me, you know, the one person you run away with. But I was in my 20s and 30s before I understood what she said. But the fact that she said it to me and then it finally clicked. Wouldn't it have clicked if she hadn't said it right? That's what I wonder about sometimes.

I wonder, too. You sometimes send me things like videos and stuff because you're trying to sometimes encourage me out of. If I get stuck in a mindset or whatever, which I know, and then I send you something back, usually that's some liberal something just to poke you.

That wasn't even.

Yeah, but what I think about often is like, I don't change fast. I have to go through the process. I have to go through the pain. And then the change comes and it's frustrating. I think of the last couple of years, like how there've been painful things that have happened that I could not let go of. I couldn't figure out. It's all I wanted. And yet finally, because of going in the steps of life and on that journey, I was able to do that.

But some people I think can do it naturally. And I think the entrepreneurs, probably, we have to go through the hard journey to get there. And I also think don't. Not everybody can do that, Michael.

Not everybody wants.

I don't think everybody can change their mind. Like, just like. Not everybody can be an entrepreneur. We have unique gifts.

That's very true. And that's something that I think I've come to realize. It's like I talked about my first wife, trying to incentivize her, get her to do that, because my dad kind of did it, but he recognized it in me. So encouraging me to do those things was easy for him to see. I always felt like everybody had that in them like I did, because how

would you have known otherwise?

Yeah, right. And that's something that probably not just the past couple years, but it's been reinforced over the past couple of years that not everybody's that way. I think there's a large group of men that are like this and women do it too. But I don't think that is because it's the way. Again, the way women are wired and men are wired is we get in our heads and we problem solve in our head, we problem solve in our science. And we don't always need to interact with a lot of people to work through our steps and our ways of focusing to find a solution. And women are very open with their thoughts, and they need feedback or with their emotions. Yes.

No, I agree.

Not all women.

I know I can be a very stoic person, and sometimes that drives me crazy.

It does.

And there are times when I'm intentional about my stoicism, too. And there are other times where I know I can't be stoic because to lead correctly, they need to see emotion from me. They need to know how I feel or otherwise they're not going to follow or believe for who I am. So I have to share that.

I want to push on that. I'll just double click in there a minute. When we talk about men and women being, you know, more nurturing on the women's side, maybe more problem solving on the men's side or whatever, I think there's a lot of helpfulness that I have gotten from using the stereotypes of, like, how men tend to be and how women tend to be. And frankly, my wife and I fall so much in the stereotype that it's. It's incredibly helpful and useful for navigating our relationship. But the challenge to that is that not everybody fits the stereotype.

No. Yeah.

And I think that almost Everybody breaks the stereotype in a way or two, right? So, you know, we make these sweeping statements, and I guess my question to you on that is, like, as you kind of have changed your views over time, and maybe you wouldn't have 25 years ago felt a particular way, but that you feel more that way now, how do you deal with. Or do you deal with the grace of giving people who don't meet that stereotypical sort of expectation? Maybe. I guess you could say that's a

really good question, because I've actually had those conversations with my daughter. And because we're so close, she'll challenge me at times, you know. Oh, you really think so, dad? Maybe that's the way they are. And of course, then I have to rethink what I'm saying, because I respect her opinion a lot, and I've raised her to think that way. And then I'm wondering, why didn't I think that way? You know? So she kind of. She mirrors me back to me at times. And so you do have to respect that. So I was listening to an audiobook years ago that talked about people who are very socially engaging, and that's their.

I don't know if you do entirely, but, you know, I think Curt does. Like, you get joy from talking to people. You get energy from exchanging with other people.

I'm not an energy vampire. Like, I don't steal people's energy. I enjoy people a lot. I just got back last night from a thing. Love them.

I don't want it to come across like you're an energy vampire.

No, no. I'm not an extrovert. I love people and then I collapse because it doesn't give me the energy. But I have to do it. It's something that I feel so much joy for, but it drains me.

Yeah.

My interpretation of Mel is Mel has this desire to learn the world and to seek information, and that drives her very, very much. But she doesn't have. At the same time, she has that dichotomy of the part that hates all the social.

I don't like people until I meet them.

So I realized that there were people on my staff that were that way, and for me to try to contain them and hold them back was going to make them miserable in being part of the team. But you also need people part of the team because they bring the energy and they get people motivated. So you have to realize, like, you actually need those people. It's kind of like if you want to talk about the whole political spectrum, like, you have the far right and the far left, we need each other for different reasons. We need to be in the yin and yang to each other, and we need to be meeting more in the middle than being so extreme all the time. But that's just a diagnosis there.

I agree with your political statement, Michael.

Oh, gosh, there we go.

There we go. There are definitely things you can't put people in a cage when their form of expression or their way of thinking is important. And if they don't fit in the position you have them in and you don't create a position for them to make, there's another spot that's available where they could go. And if they're not the right person to help them find the thing that works for them, that makes them happy. So I guess that's kind of. And as a parent, you're trying to guide your children in a direction that they. They will like and they will enjoy. So the world's open for that.

Not really the business.

I feel like you've probably amassed a bit more wisdom than I have. I'm going to be a little bit vulnerable and say something about myself that I'm kind of embarrassed by. I'm trying to change, and I have made a lot of changes already, but I really used to have very gender role, like, hard lines, right? So, like, women tend to be more nurturing. So all women need to be doing nurturing things.

Oh, boy. So her mean as hell.

And you know what? That speaks to a bit of how sheltered I was within my religious community growing up. And also just my childhood in general. It's not like my mom was some sort of, like, rollover, you know, like submissive to my dad or other men. But at the same time, she understood that she was being more nurturing than my dad, and therefore she took on all the sort of nurturing roles. And outside of that, there was also other things about from that would stem things like who should have an opinion on how money is spent, or business has done, who should have an opinion on what groceries are in the pantry. And, you know, I mean, like, and I think you kind of know where I'm going as far as, like, maybe and painting a picture of how I sort of was raised and sort of what was built into me growing up, if I'm being completely honest. And as I've gotten older, I've realized, like, you know, I was very much a, you know, just rub some dirt on it tough guy kid. Like, just, you can't show pain.

If it hurts, just do it harder and as I've gotten older and I've realized that that's not a really healthy mentality, I've sort of moved more towards the nurturing side than I used to be. By no means would I say I've arrived there, but I'm getting there. And also giving grace to my wife or other women in my life or even business. Like, you know, someone who has strengths and abilities in areas that don't fit the stereotypical mold. I just think that as you've kind of talked about your journey, there's this ability to say, I might have been wrong about something before, and I might have even publicly or made a. Planted my flag in the sand about how I know the world just is. And it's funny, when I was 20, I was pretty sure about a lot of stuff. And now I am either 45 or 46 years old.

I'm nearing 50. Like, I'm watching 50 come up, and I am so much less sure about certain things. And I've realized that being more open to people who break the mold and knowing that basically everyone doesn't fit the mold in a way or 2 or 10. Right. And then also knowing that if you're in a room of a hundred people, go ahead and assume that 90 of them are going through something really hard right now.

I think that's very true. Yeah.

And then the 10 that aren't going through something hard right now, they're bracing for impact, you know, like.

Yeah, because it's a common state of mind. So you're like, what's next?

Yeah. I think that that has changed me fundamentally and continues to change me. My trajectory is like, if you could imagine, like, an orbit where it's like, it's kind of straight, but it's always in a falling motion, like, kind of downward, you know? And luckily, I feel like my falling motion is, you know, in the right direction, maybe metaphorically going upward. But it's been really great talking to you today to just sort of hear how someone has just sort of fought through it as you've had businesses, marriages, kids, now grandkids, employees. And sometimes the empire is building, and it feels so cool, but there's always a part of the empire somewhere that's crumbling. And when you're an entrepreneur, you have so many different compartments to your life, because you don't just bring entrepreneurship on as one compartment. Like, you're adding all these different compartments to your life, and they all need to be managed. And when you find out that you're not like everyone else, because no one's like anyone else.

And that's just really hard as you're honing and sharpening yourself. You talked about self improvement earlier and sort of self awareness. Awareness. Thank you. And the ability to be willing to change so that that awareness can lead you to where you actually want to go. Where I feel like some people's awareness. We've all met. The person who's like, I know I say stuff that pisses everyone off, but I.

I say it because I speak my mind. And it's like, well, cool, but you're never going to persuade anyone. Like, congratulations on your awareness. But I'm so sad that you'll never progress.

Yeah.

And so likewise to me, there's a lot of things in my life that have been really firm and hard that I've tried really hard to sort of bend my will to what I had, who I previously was. And I think I see a lot of that in what you've said today that just really resonated with me.

I think that. Because I really like what you just said. But I think that as you progress in life and through experiences, you start to realize that the strong plant your flag. Be on this straight, narrow path when it comes to emotion, you know, rub dirt on it for men. Is that we had this concept that at least I did. And it wasn't until probably about 15, maybe 20 years ago that I realized I didn't have all the answers and I needed to start showing more emotion and I needed to be able to let people see that I was real. And when I started doing that, people connected far more with me than they did before. And there wasn't the disconnect that was there.

So. And it in starting to. So I'm glad to hear you say that. I think what learning when you should and when you shouldn't do it because there's dynamics in relationship where you want to show emotion, but if you show them motion, you come across as weak.

But do you care?

I do care. I care because I don't want to lose respect.

Interesting. This is a very, very male perspective.

No, it is. And there's definitely situations where if you show in certain relationships with women that if you show too much emotion, women lose respect because they are the emotional ones. They would need a strong figure. But there's also times where you have to be emotional and you should show emotion because that means you're real, you're human, and you need to connect in that relationship. And those vary with different people.

That's true.

And God grant me the serenity to know the difference between the two. Oh, yeah.

There you go. I love it. That's kind of where I've come to be, is that you can't be the same with everybody all the time.

Michael, do you think that you're still an evolving human Life would not be

enjoyable if I didn't think that. I totally want to be a better person tomorrow than the person I was today.

Good, because I can still change your mind about the male versus female thing.

I don't want to, like, close everything off too soon.

No.

I actually feel like that is the theme of today right there. What you just said is we all want to be changed, but I don't think anyone's enjoying the change. Right. Like, we all know what we want to be on the other side of it. But the process itself can require a ton of humility or pain and suffering. But it also, you know, the joy and happiness that comes with change as well. It's a very real thing.

Life's not fair. And if you're always chasing happiness, you're never happy. You have to get out of here. The mindset, and that's why you need to glorify, enjoy the challenges and the hard things, like, what can I learn from this? What can I do to become better from this? And then find a way to make that an enjoyable experience. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true. If you're constantly chasing happiness and trying to be happy. If I do this, I'll be happy. If I do this, I'll be happy.

If I do this, I'll be happy. You're never happy.

Happiness is a moment.

Yeah. Happiness isn't so much something to be chased, it's something to be caught, I think, in the moment. Like, you have to be ready and. And ready to pounce when it happens.

I like that.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And when you stop chasing it, the weird thing is you become happy.

Yeah.

So it's like you said, it's in the moment.

It's pretty much sums up entrepreneurship and all of the journeys and battles we go through. In many regards. The harder we fight, the harder it is to be an entrepreneur. In many ways. When you get into flow and let go of a lot of the things, it gets easier. Thank you so much, Michael, for coming on and for also, as always, allowing me to be me. And I hopefully allow you to be you. I do.

When Curt needs to take a vacation, you're going to come on here and we get to have a fun debate if you're up for it.

Just for I can be off next

week if you'd like, because also, I just like debating. I'm very passionate about my beliefs, but also, I don't know what I'm talking about half the time. I don't think anybody does.

You know what the thing I like about those that we speak from life experience about, you know, this overly educated. It's things that we've lived in life that have led us to these places where we are and we see it through our lens.

Yes, we do. Yeah.

Influenced by our genetics.

Oh, Michael, as the guest, I will let you have that last word, knowing that this is not over.

Thank you, Michael, for joining us today. Melody, it's always a pleasure to meet with you. And I know I brought up that deep moment earlier. I just want to let that sit with the listeners to maybe think about it. Like, if you don't believe in God, what do you owe to yourself? And if you do believe in God, what do you think he expects of you as an entrepreneur? And if you are trying to figure all that out, then welcome to the club. Welcome to the Sole Proprietor Podcast, where next week we will be talking about other things that we wonder about and at the end of the day, holding these big questions and sitting with them. Only good can come with that, allowing you to reflect on the real things that you as an entrepreneur can affect change in the world for. Look forward to seeing you guys next week.

Please join us again for these awesome conversations.

Thank you, Michael. Thanks, Curt.

Thanks everybody for joining us at the Sole Proprietor Podcast. It has been an absolute pleasure having these discussions with you. If you wouldn't mind taking just a few minutes to rate and review us wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, it would mean so much to us. We really do read each of these reviews and it gives us the opportunity to get the word out to more people who could benefit from hearing about topics like this and so many others. If you want to engage with us at our website and maybe share some topics or ideas of other people that you'd like to hear hear on the podcast, feel free to go to soleproprietorpodcast.com and share with us your thoughts and ideas about what we could do in the future to bring even more light into the world.