October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. We will be doubling up on our episodes to bring you the most comprehensive view of domestic violence possible. To learn more about Domestic Violence you can go to https://www.divorcecoalition.com

Legal issues in divorces involving domestic violence can be complex and sensitive, requiring careful consideration by both the legal system and the victims. One of the primary legal concerns is ensuring the safety and protection of the victim and any children involved. This may involve obtaining restraining orders or protection orders to keep the abusive spouse away from the victim. Child custody and visitation rights can also be contentious, as the court must determine what is in the best interests of the children while ensuring their safety. In this episode of Her Empowered Divorce, your Host, Beverly Price, talks to Angela Sarabia, an attorney who has spent most of her career prosecuting crimes, especially violent crimes against women. Together, they discuss domestic violence, Legal issues involved in divorces that include domestic violence, and how to seek support.

●     What happens once law enforcement has been called? Once law enforcement has been called, it’s determined to be an actual domestic violence situation; law enforcement officials must follow a mandatory arrest policy.  

●     States define domestic violence differently, but it generally includes physical and emotional violence, people who live together or share a child in common; if there is violence between them, that is considered domestic violence.

●     Isolation can make you feel helpless in domestic violence situations when it’s time to leave, but you are not alone. There are all kinds of organizations and support programs, and you need to go to these outreach programs to get support. 

●     Regardless of how you feel, if you are a victim going through a divorce, follow the advice of your attorney, cease all communication with the battler, and obtain a restraining order to keep yourself and your loved one safe.  

NOTABLE QUOTES:

●     Women in a domestic violence situation tend to face a risk of fatality if they don’t exist that violent circumstance. (Angela)

●     Oftentimes, the abuser, as much as they are a source of risk for women, they are their source of security and support, and a lot of time, it’s financial support. (Angela)

●     Domestic violence itself is isolating because as much as we have progressed as a society, there is still a huge stigma attached to it. (Angela)

●     A safety plan is strategic and smart; it’s having all your documents in a place where they are easy to grab, people you know you can confide in and give a call to pick you up and have reached out to the domestic violence organization. (Angela)

●     We often think of domestic violence as something that occurs in uneducated communities, but it cuts across every socioeconomic status and education level, so let's stop seeing it as isolated to one type of community and see it as something that we all struggle with and remove the stigma. 

●     Violence is not an outburst of somebody who has lost control of themselves; it’s an outburst of somebody who is trying to gain control of the situation.

●      If you are isolated, find your sources of support, and don’t be afraid to call law enforcement and reach out to organizations and support programs. There is overwhelming support for you out there.

FURTHER RESOURCES/RELEVANT LINKS:

US Domestic Violence Hotline: 8007997233

ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Angela Sarabia is an attorney who has spent most of her career prosecuting crimes, especially violent crimes against women. While she was a prosecutor, Angela won awards from two local domestic violence organizations: Sunrise of Pasco County and Salvation Army Domestic Violence Program. She is also an actress in her spare time and has participated in community theatre her entire adult life. During the pandemic, she was inspired to write her first play, Duress, which focused on the ways in which violence is often used as a tool of manipulation against women. The play also addresses the unique issues women face when they become victims of crime. Duress was selected to be performed at Stage West Community Playhouse in Spring Hill, Florida, and was selected to be featured in Powerstories Tampa's Voices of Women Theater Festival, where it won the Female Empowerment Award. Duress can be viewed on YouTube at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFRDzS58Ous&t=3809s

FOLLOW OUR GUEST:

Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/watch/?v=1279566532928568&ref=sharing&_rdc=1&_rdr

Email: angelasarabia103@gmail.com

ABOUT YOUR HOST:

Beverly Price is the empowering divorce coach who guides women on their journey before, during, and after divorce to eliminate pain, overwhelm, sadness, and anger and create more knowledge, skill, and peace that she experienced herself. In her 30 years of divorce coaching experience she has help thousands of women move through divorce, fully prepared with skills that enhance the results of their divorce process.

Remember, divorce doesn’t have to be a death sentence. With the right support and guidance, you can move through the process with knowledge, skills, and confidence. If you’d like to schedule a complimentary private consultation, reach out to Beverly at: 

https://Beverly-Price.as.me/ConsultationCall

CONTACT YOUR HOST:

Website: http://www.herempowereddivorce.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/her_empowered_divorce

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/herempowereddivorce/

Facebook Group: Her Empowered Divorce Tribe: https://www.facebook.com/groups/herempowereddivorcetribe

Visit https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/her-empowered-divorce/id1635143315 to access the entire archive of Her Empowered Divorce episodes, and while you’re there, please subscribe, rate, and review our show! 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7kIcMXrj1tIWBOmaXBBn1U

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@herempowereddivorce1/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beverly-price/

A Warm Shoutout To Our Amazing Sponsor: SOBERLINK

Navigating the world of divorce and empowerment involves prioritizing the safety and well-being of your children, especially during co-parenting. In today's climate, where alcohol-related concerns are on the rise, countless co-parents are embracing a solution dedicated to providing assurance, protection, and tranquility. Enter Soberlink's cutting-edge alcohol monitoring system – your ultimate partner in assuring a substance-free parenting environment.

With Soberlink's advanced features like real-time alerts, facial recognition, and tamper detection, every test maintains its authenticity, granting you the peace of mind that your children are in the care of a responsible, sober parent. Judges can rely on Soberlink to ensure the child's safety, attorneys can access court-admissible proof of sobriety, and both parents can experience empowerment and serenity.

Unveil the hidden intricacies of parenting in the modern age and put your trust in The Pioneers of Remote Alcohol Monitoring Technology™. Stay informed and rest easy knowing that your children are safeguarded. For a comprehensive addiction and children resource page crafted in partnership with Soberlink, feel free to visit www.soberlink.com/empowered

🌟 Special Highlight:

Have you discovered the "Divorce & Beyond" podcast with Susan Guthrie yet? With over 30 years as a leading family law attorney and mediator, Susan combines her wealth of expert insights with advice from the nation's top divorce specialists. Whether you're navigating the tumultuous currents of divorce or looking to thrive in your radiant BEYOND, "Divorce & Beyond" is your companion for the journey. Dive deeper and let Susan guide you to a brighter tomorrow. Listen to "Divorce & Beyond" wherever you enjoy your podcasts or on the website https://divorceandbeyondpod.com, and step into your beautiful BEYOND. 🌟

 🔊 Check Out the Divorce Coalition🎉

I'm proud to share that I am now a part of The Divorce Coalition, a united front aiming to "Break the Silence. Break the Cycle." Our mission is to bring understanding, healing, and resilience to the forefront, ending the cycle of abuse one survivor at a time.

🔗 We're here to bridge the gap between silence and strength. Through education and awareness, we aim to enlighten legal experts and uplift survivors, ensuring safer homes for all.

Join us on this transformative journey. Follow [@DivorceCoalitionPage] on social media and learn more at 👉 divorcecoalition.com.

Let's come together, break the silence, and champion a brighter future! #divorcecoalitioni#breakthesilencel#breakthecycleCycle 

 🔊 Check Out the Divorce Coalition🎉

I'm proud to share that I am now a part of The Divorce Coalition, a united front aiming to "Break the Silence. Break the Cycle." Our mission is to bring understanding, healing, and resilience to the forefront, ending the cycle of abuse one survivor at a time.

🔗 We're here to bridge the gap between silence and strength. Through education and awareness, we aim to enlighten legal experts and uplift survivors, ensuring safer homes for all.

Join us on this transformative journey. Follow [@DivorceCoalitionPage] on social media and learn more at 👉 divorcecoalition.com.

Let's come together, break the silence, and champion a brighter future! #divorcecoalitioni#breakthesilencel#breakthecycleCycle

Hi, beautiful. I'm so glad you're here today. I am so excited about our episode. I've always been curious about what a prosecutor's thinking when they're going after domestic violence abusers. Well, my guest today is Angela Sarabia. She is an attorney who has spent most of her career prosecuting crimes, especially violent crimes against women. And that is what we are so interested in today.

While she was a prosecutor, she won two awards from local domestic violence organizations. In her spare time, she's also an actress, and I'll let her tell us how that is connected to her domestic violence work. During the pandemic, she was inspired to write her first play, which focused on ways which violence is used as a tool of manipulation against women.

and it addresses unique issues women face as they become victims of a violent crime. Welcome, Angela. I am so glad you're here with us today and thank you for being here.

Hey, Beverly, it's great to be here.

This is domestic violence month. And so it wouldn't be complete without thinking about where the prosecutor is coming from. So when we think about it, we think about going to court, we think about the fear in the victim, but please let us know what a person can expect once law enforcement has been called. So it would be the step before court.

Absolutely. So once law enforcement is called, and this is true in almost every jurisdiction in the nation, once they're called and it's determined to be an actual domestic violence situation. And each state defines that differently, but generally people who live together as a family or share a child in common, if there's violence between those two individuals, that's considered domestic. Once they determine that law enforcement officials are almost all.

Wow.

They would just randomly assign, some officers would be assigned a blue paper and they were to arrest and some officers would be assigned like a red paper and they were to advise and separate and they found when you have mandatory arrest, fatalities went down. So it just became the policy in almost every police department in the nation now to arrest one of the parties. A lot of times that affords the victim some time to gather her belongings, to reach a place of safety.

to call on family and friends to get her out of that situation. It's important to know that mandatory arrest is the law of the land because oftentimes a victim will say to law enforcement, well, I wanted you guys to come and stop the violence, but I don't want anyone arrested. And law enforcement officers aren't trying to be rude, but they must arrest in a situation besides the fact of which it's a crime.

for our, I say husband and wife, but a female partner's is hurt in any way, that's a crime. And so Longforth Stoneman officials are honor bound to do their duty and arrest in that circumstance. So mandatory arrest will happen in most cases.

Wow.

I've heard statistics and I want you to see if this makes sense to you. But that 70% of women that are leaving their abuser are murdered. What do you think about that statistic? Yeah, that's what I've heard. Do you think that's high?

70%?

a bit high, but it just depends on how you define abuser. So, you know, if you have an actual situation where there's ongoing violence and violence is happening in that cycle of violence, so it's happening on a regular basis and it's escalating over time, which is what we tend to see. So if it starts with pushing, punching, slapping, slowly over time, it escalates to choking, hitting, threatening with weapons. That statistic for that type of

actual bona fide, it's the cycle of violence is at play thing, fatality rate can be very high. Nobody really can predict anything with absolute certainty, but studies have shown certain types of things happening in the arguments will make it a little bit more likely that we will have a fatality. One of those is threats to kill coming up a lot during the argument where he's actually saying I'm going to kill you. That's more likely that there will be a fatality.

Right.

Thanks for watching.

Anytime he pulls, I keep saying he, because oftentimes, you know, the violent perpetrators tend to be men, even though this isn't always the case. But if the batterer pulls out a weapon during the course of an argument, whether that's he's cleaning it, he's displaying it, anything of that nature, a weapon comes out and tends to be involved, it's more likely that a fatality is the case. Anytime one party is choking and cutting off the airflow of another party, it's much more likely that we may have a fatality in that circumstance.

So things like that tend to make it more likely. So oftentimes if I was speaking to a victim and I saw that those things were going on in the case at hand, I would say, you know, it's far more likely that you're going to die at the hands of your abuser here if you do not exit this situation because I'm just telling you what the statistics are that fatalities are more likely in these cases such as you have. And every prosecutor's office in the nation has this circumstance where you come to work. I remember the first time it ever happened.

I came to work, everybody was real quiet. It was like I was suddenly at a funeral or something. And one of our victims who we had been talking to was murdered and it happens all the time. So people oftentimes don't factor that into account. Women tend to in a domestic violence situation really face that risk of fatality if they don't exit that violent circumstance.

Mm.

You had mentioned that some women, once the police come, say they don't want to have the abuser arrested. And I've also heard that with protective orders, a lot of women come back and change their mind.

What do you think is going on in the mind of a victim that causes that?

So many things, and I think there are things that we can all understand. One of them is, oftentimes, the abuser is her source of, as much as it's a source of risk and danger for her, he's also her source of safety and support. So a lot of times that's financial support. So you know, she's obtained, let's say she's obtained a restraining order and she's got children to think about. And it starts to become clear that it's very hard for.

her to get the financial help that she needs, and the abuser is the source of that. While he's in jail, he can't be working and earning money for things for the kids. Even if they're gonna go through a divorce and she's gonna leave him, she still needs that income coming in to provide child support payments, other things like that. A lot of times it's emotional. The victim is in a place when the abuser's present and the victim is in great fear.

Right.

She wants safety just like we all do. Once he's been removed from the situation and the second guessing starts to set in, I think we've all had that experience. You know, we have a conversation, we go home and we start to doubt ourselves. Hey, maybe I was a little bit dramatic. Maybe I was a little bit mean. Maybe I was part of the situation too. She starts to second guess herself and think, well, I'm safe now. That's what I really want. I don't wanna see him lose his job. I don't wanna see him.

Right.

anything bad really happened to him. And oftentimes I think as women there's this sociological pressure to not, you know, we don't want to be seen as vindictive or going out of our way to cause anybody trouble. Men don't seem to struggle as much with this, but women really do. We want to be seen as the good guy, somebody who's being reasonable. So oftentimes a victim will say, okay, I'm safe. That's what I wanted. I don't, you know, maybe his attorney or he himself had said, look, if

Right.

Right.

If this restraining order goes through, he's going to lose his job. Or if this charge sticks, he's not going to be able to volunteer at the church anymore, you know, things like that. And the victim puts that blame on herself. Well, you know, I'm causing him this difficulty. And she doesn't want to be seen as doing that.

Thanks for watching!

Thanks for watching!

Right. Yes. So she turns his violence into her problem rather than his problem. Amazing.

And her fault, and part of that is the abuser has been telling her that the entire time. So one of the hallmarks of this abuse is constantly blaming the victim. Even though it's the abuser cycle and they're going to commit that violence because they want that sense of control over their world, he's telling her it was because you set me off. It was because you're drinking upset me. It was because you didn't have the dinner ready on time or you maybe feel...

emasculated or whatever it is, he's telling her she's setting them off, she's causing it. So she's heard that before and she's taking it to heart. And I just think it's true also as women, we do tend to blame ourselves for our circumstances, it's not a good thing. But a victim will take that blame on and oftentimes it's not all her. The abuser is telling her that and sometimes well-meaning family members or even members of her faith tradition may

Absolutely.

Thank you.

to maintain the peace in the home. So there's just a lot of forces reinforcing that idea for victims.

Yeah, stick with them for better for worse. Wow. And I also think that there's this pattern of isolating the victim so that there's less support around them. Does that play into this at all?

Yeah!

Absolutely. The first thing that will happen in an actual bonafide case of domestic violence, a lot of times the batterer is a charmer, he's somebody that everybody else sees as a great guy, a great person, and he will start to isolate his victim from family and friends who would otherwise be telling her, hey, I don't like the way he talks to you, I don't like the way he treats you. And that isolation serves two purposes.

It makes the victim much easier to control, and it also makes it much harder for the victim to get out of the situation because she doesn't have those support levers to pull on to remove herself from the situation. And oftentimes, the violence itself is isolating because as much as we have progressed as a society, there's still a huge stigma attached to it. Everybody hears a case of a woman who's being...

Wow.

Yes.

subject to violence and they say well Why why would she stay with him or why would she let that happen? And how come she didn't do this and how come she didn't do that? And so she doesn't want anyone to know about the violence because it's embarrassing people whisper people talk So that in and of itself starts to isolate her so that isolation does make a victim feel when it is time to go like Helpless and like it's really hard to leave

And that's why a lot of times as a prosecutor, it's our job to start making a victim aware of that you're not alone. There are all kinds of organizations, there are support programs, there are every domestic violence shelter has an outreach program with a support group. And I would always tell victims, you need to go to these support groups, because you will see that you're not alone, that women who are strong leaders in their community, educated.

Right.

wonderful people were also the subject of violence. They escaped the violence. They know they can tell you how and they can give you that support and you need it. I mean, none of us can do things on our own. We rely on the support of others and victims of violence are no different.

What is the importance of a safety plan?

Oh, I love that question. It's a good one. So let's suppose we have a victim of domestic violence. She knows she's in the cycle of violence. So she recognizes, hey, we're gonna have violence. Then there'll be this period of calm. There'll be kind of a honeymoon phase where he says, I'm sorry, this isn't gonna happen again. But then the tension's gonna rise and that violence will be coming again. And she knows, okay, I have to get out of this situation.

Sometimes it doesn't make sense to just run out the door screaming, you know, it makes sense to be Strategic and smart it may be the case that he has control of all the finances that he has You know made it harder in many ways for her to go by taking the credit cards and things so a safety plan is All of your documents in a place where they're easy to grab people that you know, you can

confide in and say, hey, if I give you a call, please come pick me up. Maybe you've reached out to the local domestic violence organization, and every county in the country, there's one that has a secret location for a shelter. So you've spoken to them. They won't tell you where the shelter is, but they'll tell you where to call when you're ready to go, and they'll take you there, something like that. And all of those things are in place. So if it, and victims often know when the violence is coming because they can feel that tension rise. They can see.

Wow.

Gotcha.

okay, he's drinking again or whatever the triggers are. If that starts to happen and you fear that violence is about to occur, you grab that bag, you put that plan into action and you go so that you don't feel like you have to suffer this violence because you don't have a plan. A lot of times I would talk to a victim about a safety plan if she was thinking about leaving, but she's not ready yet. Whether that be because the children have to be secured or whatever it is, then.

Right.

Because oftentimes I'm saying to her, go, let's go right now. Let's call the shelter right now. And if she says, well, not right now, then I say, well, then let's talk about safety planning.

Yes, absolutely. So let's say this progresses to court. What are the differences in the court system about handling the criminal case that comes from this particular incident?

Sure. So, the court system can seem kind of crazy if you're not used to it. And one of the biggest distinctions in court is we have civil court, which is when two parties have a disagreement and they sue each other, and all divorces are in civil court. It's husband versus wife, wife versus wife, whatever it is. Those are two parties against each other. And the rules in that court are different than criminal court.

Criminal court is the state of Florida, that's where I live, Florida, state of Florida versus an individual. So in the case of a crime, a crime against one of us is a crime against us all. It's a breach of the peace. It's, if somebody, if I go into Walmart and I steal their merchandise and walk out, it's not Walmart versus Angeles Arabia, it's the state of Florida versus Angeles Arabia to prosecute me for the crime against Walmart.

Right.

So same thing with that domestic violence. It's not a batterer versus victim. It's the state or maybe the federal government versus the batterer. And the victim is simply a witness in the case. So oftentimes a victim may come in, the batterer is probably saying to her, you need to take care of this, you need to drop this, you need to make this go away. So a victim comes in to talk to me as a prosecutor and I tell her, ma'am, you're not in control of my case. You know, I represent the government.

Right.

I'm in control of this case. I wanna hear what you have to say, but ultimately I will determine whether this goes forward or not, and you're simply a witness. And it can get a little bit ugly in some jurisdictions if a victim doesn't wanna testify or isn't willing to participate. Sometimes the government will come after her and say, look, we're gonna have you held in contempt if you refuse to come in and talk about the crime that occurred because we need to keep the public safe from this individual, and it's not simply about you anymore. So in that criminal system,

It'll be very different and for victims who are going through a divorce and a criminal case They're constantly toggling between these two different systems that have different rules And that's where oftentimes speaking to a victim's advocate with the Sheriff's Office or having the services of a good attorney Can help you not feel so out of place in both systems

Absolutely. What do you say to the people that say, well, the bigger issue is women false reporting domestic violence, that they focus on that rather than the problem.

Yeah, you-

Absolutely. So I get that question sometimes when I speak. And I will say the issue of false reporting, I mean, it is so unlikely to be the case that a report of domestic violence is false. And there's several reasons for that. The first of which is most victims of violence will tell you, it's embarrassing. You know, it's not anything anybody wants to claim. There's nothing about it that's glorifying or makes you look good at all.

Mm-hmm.

So oftentimes a victim is overcoming that embarrassment, overcoming that sense of shame to make a report. Secondly is when a victim makes a report about domestic violence and calls the sheriff's office, there's oftentimes not a lot in it for her. You know, the criminal justice system will come, they'll arrest an offender, they'll prosecute an offender, but there's no pot of gold on the other side, you know? The victim walks away from court and...

The batterer gets a criminal justice sentence, you know, some time in jail, and that's all she really gets. So oftentimes, this talk about a false report is this idea that a woman would be so vindictive that she would really want to see this terrible thing happen to a man. And I really find that that's not the case for most women. Finally, the odds of the...

The scales are stacked on behalf of a defendant in a criminal case because in America we want, we hold all arrested people innocent until proven guilty. So we presume everybody's innocent and that presumption must be overcome by evidence and the standard of proof is beyond any or beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt. So in order to actually convict someone of domestic violence.

Every.

you have to prove they committed the violence beyond a reasonable doubt. And I've lost cases before where I've had no injuries and no independent witnesses. And so if a victim tries to just make it up and there's no photos of injuries and there's no other corroborating things, oftentimes she doesn't prevail. And so the point to that just is there's just not a lot to be gained to make up something. And I think everybody sort of knows that.

So I've never seen false reports of violence to be a huge issue. Every now and then you might have a case where a victim's trying to make an injury seem a little worse than it is for whatever reason, but oftentimes police officers take photographs, they gather other evidence, and those issues are sorted out prior to trial.

Gotcha.

Gotcha, gotcha. So what should a victim do who's going through a divorce against the abuser to keep herself safe, to keep her family safe, to keep her loved one safe?

that question. There's so many things, but this is something that she may not think about at the outset. But number one is cease any and all communications with the batterer. There's almost nothing to be gained. And it's important to start with that at the outset because oftentimes the victim has kind of calmed him down, talked him down. He's told her, yeah, you know, he's kind of led her to believe she is responsible for his emotional state.

Right.

So she's like, well, gee, if I stop talking to him, then he's going to go crazy. But oftentimes, that communication, he's getting back inside her head. He's getting her to feel that fear. Once you're into a divorce process, your attorney can communicate with the other side just fine. So number one, follow the advice of an attorney. Stop any and all communications with the batterer. They don't help. It's probably true that in the vets,

Right.

case of actual bona fide domestic violence, the threats and the danger does go up a little bit when a victim does leave. But if she gets to a secure location, if she ceases all communication, if he recognizes that the threats and the temper tantrums aren't going to change the game, those will tend to go down over time. She still needs to take her safety very seriously, but stop all communications. The next step is to obtain an injunction for protection, also called a restraining order.

What that does is it puts everybody on notice that this batterer is not to be at certain locations that the victim frequents. For example, I go to a Christian church here in town. I give a little bit of advice to our church safety team. If someone comes in and they obtain that restraining order, the safety team takes it and is aware, okay, if we see this batterer come by and wants to come worship at our gathering,

We say, hey, you're not to come here because this court paper says you're not to be here. And that protects the victim. The schools where the kids go to school, other places, that way she feels like, okay, if I see him here, I can call law enforcement right now and I don't have to wait till he does something criminal. So a lot of people will say, oh, restraining order is just a piece of paper. If he's going to come do harm, he's going to come do harm. And that may be.

But oftentimes a batterer is trying to intimidate the victim, make the victim feel afraid just by driving by and doing other things that would not otherwise be criminal. But this restraining order makes it criminal. It says you shouldn't even be here and allows law enforcement to remove them. Because imagine a circumstance where you're sitting in church and your batterer walks in. If there's not a restraining order, he's allowed to come to church. You know, he's just there to worship. So it kind of provides that layer of protection.

It also lets the batterer know that the victim is very serious about this and he can stop trying to goad her into anything that she's really serious and ready to get herself and her children safe. Other than that, I would also say, tell people, family and friends the situation. Don't be afraid of the stigma. Let people help you. Keep an eye out for you. A lot of times people want to help. So I can think of a victim that I've been advising.

And she let people know people came over, they helped her install a ring camera in her home, they offered to watch the kids so she could get some things that she needed. People are upset by domestic violence and they wanna help. So those are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head to victim to keep safe.

Awesome. So let's say, sure, sure.

I'm sorry, Beverly, I just thought of one more thing. Sorry about that. So when there's a criminal case, so let's say we have a divorce going on, the victim's got her injunction, she's doing her safety planning, she's following the advice of her people in her local domestic violence organization. If there's a criminal case going on and the defendant has been arrested, then oftentimes he's gonna pay his bond money and get out of jail. When he does that, the bond or the bail,

Thank you.

There are certain conditions he must abide by. In every domestic case, unless otherwise told not to, a judge will order no contact with the victim as a condition of release. So let's say he goes into jail, he comes out, and he texts her, you bitch, I hate you. That text is a violation of his bond. Call law enforcement, they take a look at the phone, they go put him back in jail where he can sit until the case is concluded.

So that's another layer of protection for victims that any contact, if he hires a skywriter, if he posts on a Facebook page, any contact with a victim, it's gonna be a violation of his pretrial release and he can be taken back to jail for that.

Gotcha. You bring up an interesting point, social media. In this dynamic, does social media aggravate the situation?

Hehehe

Good question. It's one of those things that's out there that cuts both ways. On the one hand, it just provides more ways that a batterer can keep tabs on a victim, can see where she's at, what she's doing, because we voluntarily post so much. I would say if a victim is truly concerned about, say, we have a stalking situation or something like that, it would be great advice to tell friends, hey, if we're out, let's not post pictures today, guys. I'm trying to keep my location secret.

Let's not tag me in photos. So that can be, you know, it cuts that way. But it cuts the other way where it creates a record. So if the batterer is in there, bad mouthing her on Facebook, what I would say as a prosecutor is print, screenshot those things and let's print them out. Because they are admissible in court under certain circumstances. I can at least confront a batterer with it. Hey, you said this and that and get here to say what he has to say about it. So there are all things that paint that picture.

So it can be a tool for both in divorce proceedings and in criminal cases to show the pattern of intimidation, to show, to corroborate what the victim's saying, especially if there are threats. I'm thinking of Instagram messages, Facebook messages, where he says, I'll find you, you can't hide from me. Print those out, don't respond. There's no need for response, but print them, save them, present them to your attorney or the prosecutor in the case and just use that as a tool to

Keep yourself safe.

I would think another thing that's important is

With telephones, with cell phones, you can have like joint accounts. So she may be on his plan. She also may have that the apps where they track your location. I would think it's important to turn all that off. Um, maybe even get a burner phone or something.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely

Yeah, you know, there's so much technology out there for surveillance. Some of it's very sophisticated, but our own phones can be used as tools of surveillance against us. So it would depend a lot on exactly what the situation was. A lot of times phones are expensive and a victim doesn't want to just get a whole new phone. But I would say it may be worth its weight in gold to get your a new phone. You don't know maybe he's installed software on the phone that even if you think you've turned off some of those.

Yeah.

you know, Google Maps or whatever, and maybe that there's technology you're not aware of and he's monitoring your communications. I can think of a woman I was advising where a husband did just that, and unbeknownst to her, all of her text messages and all the other communications, he was seeing that. So first and foremost, I would say, talk to your attorney about it if you're lucky enough to have a good attorney. They may advise you to get a new phone. And maybe in a divorce proceeding, he may have to pay for that. It's a…

Thanks.

It doesn't have to be the best phone on the market, but it's new, new number, because you may need to block him from any and all communications. That may be harder to do. I also think if they're on the same plan, he may be able to print out, maybe not the conversations, but who she's called. In the past two months, he can see those phone numbers and maybe he starts calling everybody she's called and says, what are you doing talking to my so and so? So my thought is.

Right.

Get a new line, get a new plan, get a new start, get a new phone, but also be aware of other forms of monitoring technology. One woman I was speaking with, the husband had slipped a recording device into her purse. So she's talking about the violence, talking about things in the car, and he's hearing all of it. So new, maybe friends who are tech savvy, coming, hey, take a look at my car, take a look at my things, what do you think? And just being aware of all those different ways.

that you need to just be thinking about in a digital world, a connected world to keep yourself safe.

What would you say to the community at large? I think there's a huge issue with us condoning domestic violence through our silence and through our inaction. What would you say to people at large about that?

That's a really good question. What I would say oftentimes is there needs to be a lot of understanding for victims out there. So oftentimes we mean well, but when we are judging other people, sometimes it comes out of fear. You know, we don't want to believe that we could ever be a victim of violence. We don't want to believe our daughter, a friend, a family member could ever be a victim of violence. So to tell ourselves it could never happen.

We say to ourselves and to anyone who would listen, if this happened to me, I'd tell you what I'd do. I'd leave them or worse, you know, I've heard women, they're being flippant, but they'll be like, oh, I'd put them, you know, he'd never see the light of day or whatever. What I would say is, we don't wanna judge a person till we've walked a mile in their shoes. And the first thing you can say to anyone who reveals to you that they are a victim of any kind of violence is, I am so sorry that happened to you.

Right.

Right.

and you should not have had to go through that. Try to keep questions that mean well, we all mean well, but are questions like, well, why were you together for so long or why didn't you call me? Things like that you mean well, but it can come across as judgment. And then if you feel passionate about this, talk about it. Because I've talked to people, I knew someone in college and

Right.

They got violent with me on a couple of occasions and I didn't wanna talk about it because I didn't want anyone to see me as somebody who would let something like that slide. I didn't speak up. But when I've told other people about that experience, they've gone, oh my gosh, something like that happened to me. You know, maybe it happened once when I was young, maybe it's happening right now. But when we share that vulnerability and we talk about those unspoken things, people can reciprocate and they can talk about it too.

Exactly. Yes.

And so just raising our voices is huge. And then of course, giving to our local domestic violence organization. Every county, every locality has one. So look it up, hey, go to a fundraiser, give them a little money, do something of that nature because they're out there on the front lines, providing ways to keep victims safe. And that giving can be voting with your feet and letting people or letting the organizations know, hey, there's support for the community for you.

Yeah, wow. So I loved it when we...

Oh, and one more thought I had about that, sorry I interrupted you, was just that, this is something that I saw in my work, is that we sometimes think of domestic violence as being something that, well, it occurs in uneducated communities. We have this vision in our head of, there are a couple of people in a trailer, nobody's got a college education and everybody just, they're ignorant of, but that's not the case. I saw victims come in, wealthy victims, educated victims.

No, it's okay.

Oh yeah.

smart victims, church-going victims, church-going batterers. Just it is, it cuts across every socioeconomic status, every education level. We've been talking a lot about sexual violence, but same thing, it's out there. I think we think of domestic violence sometimes as a problem more of the past, more of the early 1900s. We've progressed so far as a society, but it is happening in at least

I would say one third of every woman I met has had an experience that I've heard about. So who knows if it's more like one half. So my thought is let's just stop seeing it as isolated to one type of community or education level and just see it as, hey, this is a social problem that is out there and that we all struggle with and remove the stigma.

Yeah.

Well, I'm proof of that, MBA, senior corporate executive, and a victim, but now I'm a survivor, so I love that. When we talked about at the beginning that you had created this play that highlights issues with domestic violence, how have you used theater in that way?

Love it.

Oh, I love that question. So theater is just my release, it's my escape, it's my hobby. So I really, during the pandemic especially, turned a lot of that because you couldn't perform, you know, you couldn't go anywhere. So I channeled that into writing. And I really, my play is about strangers. So it's, I wanted to write about domestic violence and relationship violence, but I didn't wanna put it into a relationship setting just because it can be so bleak and so complex.

Thank you.

So I made it between strangers, but I wrote a play about a woman who comes into work on a Saturday and encounters two criminals breaking in, and they're trying to keep her there, and they're trying to get her to stop interfering. So they're trying to control her. She's trying to figure out how to turn them against each other so that she can get away, and so that I could explore all the subtle ways that violence can be a tool of manipulation. So I sort of took a lot of what I learned.

Wow.

and baked it into the dialogue and into the experiences. So every time one of the criminals who was really bad would use violence in either a subtle or non-subtle way, the other criminal is like, well, you just made him upset. You've just aggravated him. And she, my main character is saying, he's doing it all on purpose. All this getting upset, throwing things around, that is just, it's all purposeful, it's all calculated. And that was sort of my way to raise

the audience to think about violence differently, it's not an outburst of somebody who's lost control of themselves. Oftentimes it's an outburst by somebody who's trying to gain control of the situation. So just a way to, because I find that when we come into a theater and we sit down and the lights go down, we watch the stage, we tend to have an open mind. We're ready to see and hear things that we don't normally allow ourselves to.

Right.

And we're willing to consider another person's perspective because that's what theater and movies and entertainment does is it gives us an opportunity to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and there's an empathy that arises and an understanding that arises in a way that doesn't necessarily occur at a, you know, in a class or at a talk. So just using fear as a way to open some minds, hey, think about violence differently.

Absolutely. Well, I like to ask all my guests to come up with three actionable tips that women can use. And in this case, it would be women experiencing some form of abuse. What tips would you give to them?

Okay, so this is something we didn't talk as much about when we talked about the cycle of violence, but that word abuse kind of encapsulates not just violence, but also some emotional abuse. So a lot of times victims would, almost every time, a victim would say, hey, bruises heal. The physical violence isn't the worst part of the relationship. The worst part is the emotional abuse, the things he says to me, the ways he makes me feel. So number one, I would say,

Right.

If you're a victim who's isolated, first action step is regain your support structure. So maybe that parent or friend or sister or brother that you haven't spoken to in a long time, let's reach back out. So number one, find your sources of support. Number two, I would say is if there's a crime going on, don't be afraid to call law enforcement. Things have changed.

Right.

Law enforcement officials now are very well versed in domestic violence. They have specialized training to understand some of the dynamics involved. And there are jerks everywhere, but generally speaking, they're going to be very kind about it in ways that you may not expect. So number two, don't be afraid to call law enforcement. And then number three is because feelings aren't facts, and a lot of times we can feel very unempowered and are...

our feelings have led us into the situation that we're trying to get out of now. Find your trusted people and start to follow their advice. So that may be that friend who's always been telling you, hey, you deserve better. That may be your attorney who's saying, look, I know you feel like you need to call and smooth things over, but I'm telling you not to. Or it may be the domestic violence professional who's saying, I think it's time for you to come into the shelter, but you're following the advice of people and putting your feelings to the side for now because they've led you here.

Right.

You know these people care about you. Let's follow your advice and there's going to be overwhelming support for you out there. I think a lot of times we can all get into our negative self-talk. You know, nobody cares. Everybody's going to blame me. Things like that. And I think you're going to find in most cases your fears about that are probably untrue. Most people are going to surround you. They're going to embrace you. They're going to care about you. And so let's make sure to have that positive self-talk.

You will have more support than you think you will when you start to exit the situation.

Yeah, yeah. One of the things, just another question I thought of is the situation where people on the outside are very vocal against domestic violence, but then when an abuser is in their family, it's a very different story. Have you seen that?

Absolutely. I've seen that a lot because I think in our family, we want peace in the family. We want everybody to get along. So oftentimes, everybody in the family is going to say, well, I see both sides of this. They don't want to believe their family member could be capable of violence. So he's saying, I wasn't that bad. She's saying I hit her. I didn't really hit her. I pushed her. It wasn't...

Yes. Yeah.

And we want to believe that, you know, we don't want to believe that our family members are capable of violence. And people in the family want to be seen as neutral. They see what they consider to be a better situation and they want to see both sides of it. So I do see that a lot. It may be as much as I was just counseling people to get a hold of those support people, it may be that your family is not a good source of support right now. If you're saying that there's violence.

Yes.

or emotional abuse, and they're not hearing you on that, it may be time to step away from our extended family and get around some professionals, get around some, that's why being in a support group for survivors of violence can be so important because I guarantee you there'll be someone in that group who went through this, who can say, yeah, my mother took his side, or my sister didn't believe me. Sometimes that can really crush us when the people who are supposed to keep us safe

don't believe us about how bad it is. I mean, people just don't wanna believe this is so common and they don't wanna believe it happens. So it may be that even though your family has always been your source of support, and maybe that right now they're not hearing you and you do have to step away. And once you are able to get yourself into a safe place and move on from the relationship, then can be the time for mending. But for now it could be, hey, we gotta stop listening to them, they're not helping you here. Sometimes our faith traditions, which are very like family to us,

Exactly.

Thanks for watching!

can be unhelpful. Maybe you've got a pastor who's saying, hey, we just need to counsel you to, we just need to work it out. So all those things I would say if violence is going on, talk to the professionals that handle violence all the time because they may be more helpful in their guiding of you than family can be sometimes.

Right.

This has just been such an incredible time together. How can our listeners find you if they want more information?

Okay, so I'm on Facebook. My name is Angela and then my last name is Essison Sam, A-R-A, B as in boy, I-A, Sarabia. You can find me there. I don't have a website or anything. A lot of times I'm just getting, people will, because I've just become a voice in the community against domestic violence, I'll get messages in my Facebook inbox all the time from people I don't even know saying, hey, here's my situation, so.

Send me a message, reach out to me. If I don't know the answer, I'll know somebody who does, especially in law world. And that's a great place to find me. My play that I've written, Dress. I've just, I got a theater to put it up, which was wonderful. I wanna do that more. But for right now, it's just a script that I've got. So if you'd like to bring Dress to a theater near you, Facebook would be a great way to reach out. You also have my email address.

website for the podcast Email me I give out my email address to anybody and everybody I figure hey if it ever becomes a problem I'll just change my email address. So I get emails all the time looking for advice having questions Anything so email me. I love it. It's my passion. So you're never bothering me You need to say hey, I have a friend. She's got this personal situation. I'm here to help. I love it So contact me in those ways and I look forward to helping in any way I can

So nice.

And what's your email address Angela?

It's Angela Sarabia, AngelaSarabia103 at gmail.com. So my full name, 103.

Awesome. Thank you so much for being my guest today. This has been so informative and I think it would be so helpful when you think about one out of three women are the victims of domestic violence. This information is absolutely critical. Absolutely. Thank you.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me Beverly. I really appreciate it.

You're so welcome. And to the audience, thank you for being with Angela and myself on this episode of Her Empowered Divorce. All of Angela's information will be available in the show notes. This and all our episodes can be found at herempoweredivorce.com on the podcast page or on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also watch the video version on our YouTube channel, Her Empowered Divorce.

Please like and subscribe. Please share our story with your friends so we can help and reach out as many women as possible. Join me for our next episode where I'll be diving deeper into what other expert professionals can share to help you. Remember, you can find more information again to eliminate the pain, overwhelm, and create more knowledge and happiness at herempowereddivorce.com. Until next time, stay empowered.

Stop.

Come on, bugger.

Okay, well, I don't know how to make it stop. It's not clicking stop.

Huh.

I've never had this happen before.