There’s a way of seeing personal growth and transformation as a cycle of rupture, descent, emergence, and return – an inward journey that challenges us to confront our own demons, integrate different aspects of ourselves, and ultimately find a way to contribute to the collective good.

Christine Raine is a speaker, facilitator, and podcaster. She developed an interpretation of Maureen Murdoch’s Heroine’s Journey, a psychological framework for personal growth and transformation that integrates this cycle. In her discussion with Ben, she explains how the journey typically unfolds more like a spiral than a circle, emphasising its impact no matter your gender identity.

Links

• Connect with Christine via LinkedIn
• Christine’s website
• Listen to the Heroine’s Journey podcast

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking.

The series of conversations with academics advisors, entrepreneurs and activists, people all championing those ideas on the margins, the periphery.

Why is this important?

Well, as the systems on which we've depended for the last 50, 60 stroke thousand years, crumble and creek people increasingly looking for new stories, new ideas, new myths, if you like, that might guide and inform how they live and work.

So in these conversations, we take time to speak to those people who are championing the ideas on the margins, championing the ideas on the periphery, those ideas which are gonna shape the mainstream tomorrow.

Uh, and our hope is that you are a little bit inspired, a little bit curious enough to take some of these ideas and bring them back to the day-to-day of your work and your life.

Christine, thank you for joining me on Peripheral Thinking.

Thank you so much for the invitation.

So actually I wanted to start by thanking you.

I was listening to, we were talking before and about, uh, your own podcast and, uh, we will come to that I'm sure a little bit.

Um, but there was something that you said in, in your sort of summing up episode and you were talking about, you had a conversation with your, your producer, partner on the podcast and you were talking about like the sort of nervousness you had at the beginning of the podcast journey, and then the kind of realization that, you

know, obviously it's kind of not about you and just putting your kind of body and your mind and your heart into the, into the flow of the words and the conversation.

And I was listening to that and it was a really helpful reminder for me as well.

So I wanted to thank you.

'Cause even like, whatever, I've probably, I've done somewhere over 30 of these now, and I think you made reference to something in that same conversation where you're saying you wanted the conversations to be like a friend coming over for tea.

And, uh, I really like that.

'Cause I was thinking when I set this up too, oh, I'd like this to be like, I'm meeting a friend for a drink.

And then I sort of found myself trying to plan the conversation, imagining what somebody listening to the conversation might be thinking, uh,, trying to imagine that there was some right arc to the conversation, which of course are all of the things nobody would ever fucking do if you were meeting a friend for a drink.

Uh, so actually hearing you talk about that earlier was a really helpful reminder.

So thank you for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for reminding it in this moment because, um, even though I say those things, I, I also get nervous, you know, and I think that's, that's a part of it as well, is just learning how to balance, wanting things to feel organic and natural because those are the best conversations, and

also having that awareness or that consciousness that other people are gonna listen to this and wanting it to be helpful for other people as well.

Thank you.

It is a, it's a, it's a balance, isn't it?

I mean, that's the thing.

It really is a balance.

Yeah.

Um, we actually met, I think our path certainly crossed, uh, in a field, uh, as it's been the case with a few people I've spoken to on the podcast, which would've been a field, uh, somewhere in the far corners of Sussex near where I am.

But actually, yeah, just before we kind of get into that kind of, because obviously we can see each other, but obviously anybody who is listening doesn't have that.

And we were talking behind you, you have kind of bright sunshine coming in behind me where I just have kind of low grade.

Where, where are you?

Describe to me where you are while we're having this conversation.

Um, I am in the Caribbean coast of Costa Rica.

And it's a, it's a region of the country that I've been coming to since I was a very young girl because my dad worked here as an agricultural economist, 40 years ago when there were no roads, when you could only reach through, through a boat and, um, like many people after him, he felt like he had found paradise and bought a little bit of land.

And so I really grew up coming here as a little girl.

And it's, it's really great because I've been here for a few days now and it's been raining and, which is awesome, you know, to be in the jungle and the beach with rain, it's still pretty cool.

But today is the first day of sun and so I'm just really enjoying that and, and also celebrating that I set this intention of coming and spending time here in nature with the sea, with the jungle barefoot, um, as part of a healing process that I've been, that I've been going through in the last years.

And this is the first time that it's finally happening for, for a, an extended period of time.

Like, I'm here for nine days and I wanna continue to do that monthly for this year and see what happens.

It's something that a healer recommended that I do.

And I'm mentioning this because it, it, there's a parallel with the heroin's journey as we'll see later.

Um, but yeah, feeling, spending more time immersed in nature felt like a really important part of what I want my life to be right now.

And this feels like a first step towards that.

So I'm really celebrating.

I think just the, just the reminder, the invitation to spend time walking in barefoot actually was something just kind of really resonant for you.

Talk about, I, I was just kind of reminded I've got socks on.

Um, not that everybody needs to know that, but, so I've got, I've got kind of socks on.

I'm inside and actually, just as you were saying that I can actually feel the container of the sock almost kind of holding my foot in.

So the kind of invitation, the reminder to just, just the, the kind of beauty of barefoot on the earth being such an important part, whether it's of healing or just of life.

Yeah.

And, and whether that's sand or, or moss, you know, it, it's, it applies anywhere where you are in the world and it's part of just grounding ourselves and remembering that we are constantly being held by something bigger than ourselves.

You know, the earth, as you said, uh, the mother Earth, as many people refer to her.

And having that connection is something that brings balance and equilibrium in our life, and also makes us aware that that care needs to be reciprocal.

You know, it's not just the care we receive from nature, which is so generous.

it's also the fact that we're living in a time where she really needs our help as well.

So you mentioned just there in passing, which is, uh, what we're this the, the heroine's journey And, uh, so that was, I I kind of had started down a line of saying our paths across when we, we met, uh, a couple of times in a field in Sussex at the, Happy Startup School summer camp.

Uh, which as I said before, I encourage everybody, everybody to check out.

And you were, you were giving a talk that you gave a talk on the year, just gone, which was, uh, in September 23.

And, uh, the talk was on, on the heroine's journey, which I'd seen you writing about and talking about a little bit around that.

And you've just made kind of passing reference to.

But do you wanna just give us a very quick overview before we kind of get into it a little bit about what the heroine's journey is?

The heroine's journey is an archetypical map that helps us.

Understand moments of profound change and transformation in our lives that are oftentimes proceeded by a crisis of some sort.

it was created initially by Marine Murdoch, who is the author of a book called The Heroine's Journey, woman's Quest for Wholeness.

And she was also a student of Joseph Campbell, who is the, the scholar, teacher, mythologist that coined the Hero's Journey.

So in a lot of ways, the Heroin's journey is a response or is complimentary to the hero's journey, but I'd also say it stands on its own.

And, and it's a, it's an archetype and a, a very, very useful paradigm that I found when I was going through a moment of profound change, and crisis in my own life.

And it was really like, like a breath of fresh air, you know, just feeling, oh my gosh, this, this narrative really, really speaks to me and, and is helping me bring meaning into all of these things that are happening in my life.

And what I found talking to other people is that, of course, I'm not alone.

And a lot of, other human beings go through these moments of massive, these massive turning points in their lives.

Um, and so it, it seemed to me that sharing about this map and this guideline, this narrative, this archetype, whatever you wanna call it, could be useful for others to learn about as well, because it was incredibly, incredibly instrumental for me.

I mean, I'd love to hear in a minute about sort of what was, what was kind of going on that meant this kind of landed so powerfully for you, but just go, we do.

So what, what other, the kind of broad to, to give us an idea of the map of the terrain as you sort of speak about it.

What, what, what are the components of the map?

Just so kind of then give us a feel for sort of how the conversation might flow after.

So, I wanna be clear that this is my own interpretation on the map.

So I find aspects of Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey super useful and also of Murdoch's heroine's journey super useful.

And there are other people, other, uh, scholars, teachers that have done a, a twist on the heroin's journey, such as Victoria Lynch, Schmidt, and, and this is kind of, me and my producers of the Heroin's Journey podcast studying all these different maps and coming up with something that feels

integrated, or that feels like it integrates different aspects of what we find most useful of these really, uh, interesting ideas and narratives.

And so the four stages that we came up with are, well, we start, it's interesting because the heroines map, if you imagine it like a circle or more like a spiral, it has four points that are like cardinal points.

And at the very beginning, or the north, let's say the north node, we start at the illusion of a perfect world.

And by that, what Murdoch is referring to is the prescription that we, we receive from society that if we do all these things, we're gonna be happy, we're gonna be successful, we're gonna do great in life.

So if we have a great career, if we get married, if we buy a house, if we have kids, if we, you know, all these things that are kind of, um, un unspoken in our society's language, or sometimes pre pretty explicit as well.

Yeah.

and yet even for those of o uh, of us that follow that prescription very closely and tick all the box, we can end up with either, like a spiritual void of some sort, feeling some kind of emptiness, like there's something missing in our life, and that can throw us on a, a bit of an existential crisis or there can be a rupture of some sort.

And that's the name of the first phase, uh, for us is the rupture.

And the rupture is a moment when there's fallen expectations, a sense of betrayal, that really takes off the veil of what we thought was this perfect story or, or, or this perfect life and makes us deeply question that.

And if we have the courage to go into that kind of void and questioning and confusion, which in a way is an invitation to confront our own shadows and take a journey inward to really examine ourselves, then we cross a threshold which we call the moment of realization where the veil falls and we move into the second phase, which is the descent.

And the descent is that deep plunge into the waters of our emotions.

It's the unchartered territory.

It's where we're trying to figure out and make sense of what happened and what does that mean.

And it's a pretty intense stage in the process because we're confronted by really difficult emotions that we might have never wanted to feel before, and now we're there, right?

Fear, shame, disconnection, loneliness, isolation, all of those things are common visitors in the descent.

And because we don't have a map, we don't have a clear guide of what to do or where to go because ultimately we have to find that in ourselves.

it can be a very confusing and chaotic time.

And so now by this point, after the descent, we're at the south node, um, which is a symbolic death, or a, a real death.

It could be a real death, but most of the time it's a symbolic death.

And what I mean by that, it's the shedding of layers and identities that no longer serve us.

It's letting the parts of us die, so that we can create space for the new.

And, and by this I mean the parts of us that don't really reflect our true essence, or who we are or what we came here to do, right?

The parts that have been in positions or external expectations, or whatever it is, limiting beliefs.

So we let those things die and it's, it's a very gruesome and painful death.

Like, and we can't hurry the descent, right?

It's a sacred process.

We can't hurry it.

But eventually we get to that point of complete surrender.

And I'd say this is a very key concept, is, is this notion of letting go of control, the false illusion of control and really surrendering completely.

And in that surrender, in that shedding of skins, something new can be born, right?

We're, we're creating the fertile ground for something to emerge.

And that's the third phase is the emergence.

So it's the rebirth after death.

There's the initiation, it's the process of learning, of growing, of expansion, of realizing that the world will never be what we thought it was, and that we have been completely changed by this process.

And it's kind of that, that process of reassembling ourselves.

and it can be really beautiful, the emergence because it's pregnant with possibility, you know, and, and it feels like anything is possible.

And we're just like, almost like little kids wanting to absorb the world again and make sense out of things.

And, and it can feel pretty shy because we're leaving this cave of darkness, you know, but there's a real beauty to that third phase of emergence, which Murdoch really emphasizes on the reconnection with the feminine.

So this is important for me to kind of zoom out and say that Murdoch's work, the, the original work on the heroin's journey is much more focused on women first becoming disconnected from their feminine side, over identifying with the masculine, and in this death and emergence and rebirth, they finally reconnect with the feminine again, and they heal the wounded masculine.

And so I found, um, I found it to be a little bit problematic to talk about masculine and feminine in such a binary way, but I do think it's useful to understand that a lot of what causes this initial disconnect and these expectations that then result in, in a rupture is, um, patriarchal society, you know, and a lot of what comes with patriarchy.

However, I do find that not only women go through the heroin's journey, men go through the heroin's journey as well.

And any other gender goes through the heroin's journey as well.

It's really about reconnecting and reclaiming these feminine qualities that as individuals and as a society we've become disconnected from, and that we've lost and that have a huge cost to ourselves, to the planet.

And we can talk about that later so that I can finish the map.

But I just wanted to make that, that, that little clarification because it felt important to talk about it in the emergence phase.

And the emergence is a lot about sisterhood, about community, about learning to ask and receive help and support, and realizing that we're interdependent beings, that we don't need to do it alone all alone, you know?

And what a joy, what a joy to realize we don't need to do it all on our own.

Um, and that there's nothing to prove.

And so the fourth phase, the return is once we feel ready or called to take back the gift that we've received from going through this journey, we go back to our communities and feed it to the collective fire, feed it to the collective dream.

And this is really different from the hero's journey in that, his journey is more about how can I serve myself?

Or what did I learn for myself?

What did I overcome in a more individualistic manner?

Whereas the heroine asked the question, how can I serve the dream?

You know, how can I take these polished, emotional and spiritual tools that I've developed on this journey and put them at service?

And some qualities of the return are radical acceptance, just really accepting things for what they truly are instead of projecting what we want things to be.

integration of feminine and masculine energies.

In other words, it's not at all about rejecting masculine qualities, masculine qualities can be amazing in so many ways, right?

There's a reason why we've oriented ourselves towards them for centuries, you know, but, but really integrating and balancing those qualities with the feminine, with, with nurturance, with care, with inner wisdom, with inner validation.

That's a huge part of the return is realizing we don't need that external validation anymore because we are validating ourselves from the inside out.

And to be able to be in the world from that way, in that way, where we're not constantly seeking approval and validation from other people is so, it's such a relief, it's so refreshing and it really allows us to explore our creativity and to contribute and to serve from a different place.

So, so that's the, that's the overall map and the four phases.

So the first is rupture, the second descent, the third emergence, and the fourth is the return.

And something I should say before I finish is that the heroin's journey is more of a pilgrimage than an adventure.

The hero's journey is more of an adventure, and it's an inward journey, right?

We're not facing and confronting external obstacles or dragons or ogre.

We are facing and confronting the demons of our own mind, you know, the, the demons that inhabit our own souls.

And in this, in that way, there is, there isn't an end point, you know, it's more like a spiral.

So something that I've realized is that once I think I'm at the return, all of a sudden I have a new rupture and I'm added again.

You know, and I'm being thrown under into the descent again and like learning new things in the emergence again.

And like, so it's useful to think about the heroin's journey more as a spiral than a circle, because we're constantly growing and evolving.

Wow.

I mean, that is, it is beautiful.

There's so much in there.

Um, and so many kind of thoughts and questions that I had before, which you then started talking, to try to understand the difference between the heroine's journey and the hero's journey, which you kind of alluded to in there.

Uh, and in, in some ways as you were talking, it sort of feels that in a super simplistic way, it kind of feels like it's, it's about articulating a journey from a separateness to a togetherness.

Is that kind of in a, in a sort of simple way?

Or, or, yeah, yeah, may, maybe that's a, maybe a separateness to, to a, you know, separateness from the other, separateness from myself to a, to a togetherness with myself, to a togetherness with, with others.

I love that.

I love that summary.

And I think in a simple way, it's, it's exactly that.

In fact, uh, Murdoch's book, the subtitle is woman's quest for wholeness.

And for me wholeness is that togetherness that you're speaking of.

And, and I think it's not a woman's quest to wholeness.

I think it's a human being's quest towards wholeness and togetherness and to really embracing all of the parts of ourselves, the, the lightness and the dark.

Because there is so much learning and gems and important questions that we need to answer in our shadows, and we can't continue to run away from them and pretend that they're not there and that they don't exist.

And I get it.

It it takes a lot of courage to confront ourselves with, with those shadows, right?

But there's a lot of fear involved, but it's the only way that we're going to become whole and that we're gonna become integrated and feel that togetherness that you're alluding to.

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the, the word which has come up a few times is the kind of this need, the need for courage.

Like, so talking about the map, the, the beginning, this idea of kind of rupture, and, um, yeah, I guess just 'cause everything you are talking about, of course it makes so much sense given where things are, politically, emotionally, socially, environmentally, ecologically.

Or even on that level, this inability to, to confront our shadow, the inability to step into a rupture, uh, because it's scary and difficult and all of those things, of course, that is played out at a sort of, you know, universal scale.

But then of course, just equally for, for ourselves, like, you know, I think about just my, the, how hard I find it, you know, to have conversations which make me feel difficult or sort of, you know, to confront things which make me, you know, which make me feel anxious or scared or whatever it might be.

And the, just the inability, even just to sort of step in at that sort of micro level, you know, this, the thing that the word courage and the, the need for courage in this.

Yeah.

I think you're, pointing at something so, so important, perhaps the most important quality that we need to, to develop in order to go on this journey.

And just before we talk about that, I, I just want to say that I resonate completely with, with what you're saying in terms of understanding this beyond the individual and seeing it as a society and how we relate to the environment and to leadership and to power and to all these bigger structures that are more systemic.

And that's actually one of the things that motivates me so much about understanding this map and using it as a tool, is that I see it as an alternate path to undergo not just individual ruptures or personal ruptures, but also societal ruptures.

And as you said, we're, we're at a moment where so many ruptures are happening and people are scared and they don't know where to look, so many more ruptures will need to happen for us to heal our planet and heal our political and economical systems, you know, and, and I really do think that this guide

and this framework is something that we can extrapolate, not only use it as something for the individual, but also to understand social processes as well.

And yeah, courage.

Courage.

Um, there has to be a motivation to be courageous, right?

Uh, it, it's hard to, to summon bravery and to, to take those leaps into the unknown without a kind of motivation that propels us in a way, right?

And I think that's different for each person.

I think that's something that each person needs to kind of find within themselves, I can say that for me something that I notice that has been a motor of taking the harder path, being willing to do the hard work, and most of that being internal work is this very deep rooted need that I have to be an integrity with myself.

I think that in moments of rupture, our souls, the universe, God, life, whatever you wanna call it, is trying to tell us that something needs to change, that something cannot stay the same, and we need, we can either swallow the blue pill and forget about it and pretend that it's not

there, or we can begin, you know, take it as a calling, which is the beginning of both the hero and the heroin's journey as a calling, right?

And see it as the calling that it is, and know that we are about to embark on a process of transformation where we don't know what the end result will be, but we know that it's absolutely necessary for us to stay in integrity with ourselves and ultimately to be living the life that we're meant to live.

And I think deep down, that's something that everyone wants for themselves.

You know, we all wanna feel like there's a reason we're here.

We all wanna feel that there's something greater than ourselves that is at work in, in our lives.

And guess what?

That comes with?

Hard work.

Being aligned with that comes with hard work.

It's not for free, you know?

Um, but the beauty is that in that hard work, we are doing important work, not just for ourselves, but for our ancestors, for our families, for the people that are around us, and ultimately for society as a whole.

And that's another thing that motivates me, you know.

When when I go deep into my shadows to feel the fear, to feel the anger, to really let my emotions be, I know that what I'm doing is not just healing myself, it's healing the world in a way, you know, because we really need to be willing to feel, to feel that's, that's truly the starting point.

And where the courage happens, you know, it's okay.

We we're taking this step into unknown, into the unknown, and what comes next?

Darkness, unchartered territory, no map, right?

It, it's just feeling really.

It's feeling.

Um, and that's something that.

A lot of us are not used to doing or feel really disconnected from, but that's where the wisdom lies.

That's where the wisdom lies.

And once we're able to hold ourselves in that discomfort, it'll be much easier to hold discomfort in other external situations, right?

That difficult conversation, that hard thing, you didn't wanna say, that uncomfortable context that you didn't wanna be a part of.

Like once you've held that discomfort in yourself and come back triumphant on the other side, and, and by the way, our fear of what it's like is way worse than what it's actually like to go through it, right?

So it's not that you're gonna be traumatized or whatever, you know, like if anything, you're just gonna connect with.

This inner sense of power that is gonna spill over into other areas of your life as well.

So it's that, that initial courage is contagious.

And I'm kind of reminded in that, that this the, the spiral in the way that you're sort of talking about it, so the spiral I guess, then can happen, you know, in a moment the spiral can happen over decades.

There can, so just, I guess, sort of different layers of this unfolding at sort of different speeds and at different rates and at different levels of, of complexity.

So it kind of, it can work on all of those levels simultaneously in a way.

Absolutely.

And there's a map that we did recently.

We, we're working with a, with an artist, um, with a graphic designer because a lot of these things that we're talking about is, is in our social media and our blog because we realize it's super useful to have visuals, right?

Visuals of these maps and things.

And now that we're starting to work on a second season of the podcast, I, I told the designer that I want us to draw a map where we're simultaneously in all of the phases, because that's more what it feels like a lot of the time, right?

There's like a part of me that is still dealing with the most recent rupture and there's another part of me that is sometimes completely into the cave and not wanting to get out of bed or whatever.

And then there's another part of me that feels this sense of possibility and is excited and, and you know, and there's another part of me that's already working on projects that integrate all of these learnings that I've been having by going through these heroines journey.

And we just go back and forth in all directions it's very multi-directional, for sure.

Now over the last few years I've written so much about endings and I was kind of really curious about why I've written about, uh, endings and it's kind of, it's really interesting you talk about it in, as part of the, this whole journey.

And the other sort of thing, which I'm also keen to talk about at some point you kind of made reference, you know, explaining this is about feminine qualities rather than, you know, it is not about women as such, it's about the feminine qualities and the need to kind of bring all, all of those things together.

And I think the other area, which would be kind of great to go into too, a few, a few weeks ago, or, uh, a little while ago I spoke to somebody on my podcast and he, his area of, of teaching and actually his work is all in, in masculine qualities.

And I was just really, it just feels that it's such a important thing of the time that this kind of understanding of, 'cause his, he's written a lot about, , I can't remember the exact phrase he use, it's like a, a mature masculinity and the, that actually this is a, this is kind of failing and a lot of

what he was sort of talking about was because he, he's, uh, Indian and initiation had played a really big part of him growing into the man that he'd become.

And he was talking a lot about the fact, or we, we came, came to be talking then about how this lack of initiation, uh, in, in certainly how boys are growing up means boys are growing up without a real awareness of what a mature masculinity is, which, you know, really would leave space for all of these qualities that we're talking about.

And I've just kind of, sort of really shot the other thing now, which kind of seems to be coming up a lot.

Like I said, one thing around this idea of endings, this other thing, like we are talking about now, actually, how, you know, the importance of making space for both of these, for, for all of these aspects, the what we, what are called the feminine and what are called the masculine, and the meeting between those things feels like a lot of what is we are talking about in a way.

Yeah, that's such a great point.

And I wanted to say at, at the beginning of, of this, uh, conversation that when you were mentioning that I gave a talk at Summer Camp about the heroin's journey that I loved your talk about endings.

And I think that a lot of what life is teaching me right now is to understand that part of being alive is embracing endings constantly, and kind of reframing how we think of endings, right?

Normally there's such a tragic connotation to an ending, and what I love about what you spoke about, and the heroin journey refers to this a lot too, is this idea that how can we bring new things into the world and into our life if we don't allow for other things to die, right?

And I think it's, it's not even a matter of allowing, it's just that's the law and permanence, just as things will be created and will exist, they will also cease to exist at some point.

And I think a lot of our quality of life will depend on how we're able to navigate those endings, how we're able to bring meaning to them, how we can approach them, even harmoniously, ritualistically with with gratitude for their teachings, and also allowing ourselves to truly heal whatever needs to heal so that we're not holding onto resentment or anger or shame or

different things that can come with endings sometimes, can come with closures, and really open ourselves up to what is wanting to emerge in our lives, you know, what, what wants to unravel.

And, and I think nature is a great teacher for this truth, because things in nature are constantly dying and creating the fertile ground for new things to be born right?

Decomposition is this miraculous phenomena that allows for the falling of trees or plants or flowers, whatever it is, sometimes trees that have hundreds of years to go back into the ground and create this incredibly fertile soil for new things to come up for new things to rise.

It's such a beautiful, you know, and no one in the forest or in the jungle is weeping about this.

It just is what it is, and that's, that's that acceptance that I was talking about before is just accepting things for what they are.

You know, like so much of our culture, it's like marriage.

It has to be forever, you know, partnership, it has to be forever.

If you fall in love with a house or a place, it has to be forever.

If you're a job, has to be forever.

I mean, a lot of these things are changing, but to me, at least as a young girl, like I know I had a very fixated vision of how I wanted things to be, and that gave me like this false sense of security.

And I think what life is teaching me now, as I've been diagnosed with illness, as I've been through a separation as I watched my younger cousin die from cancer, like, it's just been one thing after another that makes me realize that everything is constantly changing.

And the more I can accept that and really embrace that, and honor those closures to give way to new beginnings, the better I'm gonna be, you know, the better human I'm gonna be to myself and to others.

Wow.

I mean, that's really, really amazing.

Beautiful to hear.

One of the things that was coming up as you were talking about there and you know, just in, even in, in the, in the tragedy and the difficulty of a lot of those things, you were kind of, I was reading a book, uh, recently and uh, the person in the book was talking about the point

where the, uh, air meets the sea or so the air meets the water and how one is continually condensing and evaporating into, into each other.

And I was really just, it was a really beautiful kind of way of writing about it, but it made me just sort of realize that, like these blending points, these points where one thing condenses or evaporates into another, like, like where the air meets the sea or an ending meets a beginning or whatever it might be, that these kind of points are all over, all over the place.

And actually when, what was coming up for me as you were, you were talking, there was just the reminder, the invitation to, you know, just to be able to kind of, sort of settle into that point where, you know, the ending evaporates or condenses into a beginning, whatever it may be.

With all of the difficulty that, 'cause of course these things are, you know, can be, it is very easy to say all of this and then you are in a situation like you talk about, which is one of tragedy, which is one of illness or family dying or relationship crumbling, whatever it might be.

And in the throes of that, of course it's really fucking hard to go, no, I'm just fucking condensing from this to that and kind of ride in with it.

But I think it, I just reminded again of tho those blurry edges, the point where one thing you know doesn't quite and does become something else.

And the, the value of just practicing being in that space.

Yeah, and I think the quality of, of surrender is so important in those moments.

I, I love that image that you described and just surrendering, you know, knowing that holding onto something in a way that is not natural, that feels forced, isn't gonna serve anybody.

It's definitely not gonna serve you as much as you wanna hold onto something or you want something not to change, it's not gonna serve you.

And so just surrendering to, to feeling the loss and feeling the grief.

S grief so that you're able to transmute it into something else, you know?

And I think the gift for me of, of going through these dissents and profound changes recently has been to connect with my creativity in a way that I probably had never done before.

You know, like I, I started writing poetry, like I don't even understand poetry.

And all of a sudden I just, like sit and, and something would come out, you know?

And it felt like a poem, you know?

And I was like, whoa, what's happening, you know?

Or at a, at a larger scale, creating this podcast, you know, this podcast was really meant to accompany people that are going through these really difficult moments of, of change and transformation, because I know that when we're, when we're able to see it as part of a bigger framework that gives it meaning, we can surrender to the suffering a lot easier.

You know, we can surrender to the pain a lot easier.

And in that surrender is our transformation, and is our healing.

But that, that surrender is so hard.

But possible, very possible.

And, and the good news is that once you, it's like a muscle, right?

Like once you do it once and you do it again, and you do it again, it becomes easier.

It's not as hard as the first time.

And, and it's just this muscle that you learn to cultivate and that you learn to trust.

You know that there's beauty on the other side.

So you just begin to trust the process more.

And, and that allows for you to, to hold on less, you know, like to, to loosen the grip, let's say.

Yeah.

Which I guess is a, is is a very kind of real way of describing the act of surrendering.

Is a loosening of the grip is what or is, is essentially what you're talking about.

Yeah.

What has been one of your favorite kind of gems of reading and talking about endings?

I think it kind of feels like it's just, it's connected to a kind of much sort of bigger journey in a way about being used to kind of being scared, being used to just letting, letting go of the controls, you know.

All things which are kinda, I easily say to other people, but I think actually it's as is kind of often the way, isn't it?

The thing that you kind of are teaching to others is the thing that you kind of most want for yourself.

And maybe part of the thing around the endings is just because actually on so many kind of levels, I feel like I'm just holding on tight, you know, and so it's like a continual invitation to me just to find those places where I am holding on tight and just learn that it's okay to just sort of let you know, let go, hold on, less tight in those instances, in those places.

So maybe it's less that there is a sort of gem other than the gems which you referenced to like that I see all the time in nature.

You know, the kind of, you know, all, all the time in nature, the, the kind of ending being the fertile ground for growth.

So I see those kind of, uh, I see those stories everywhere I kind of look, and those stories are really kind of nourishing and encouraging for me.

And maybe it's because actually a lot of what all of you know, a lot of what is resonant for me is this learning really how to kind of let go at those places where I am holding on too tight.

Yeah.

I really feel you.

I think everyone can relate to that, to that difficulty in letting go and loosening the grip.

It's terrifying.

It's really scary.

You feel like you're on the side of a precipice, you know?

And like, it's really not easy, right?

And, and I think that's why we have to see it as a spiritual practice almost, right?

And know that, that we're going little by little.

It, it doesn't have to be letting go of huge things all at once.

You know, like, it can be little steps.

And understanding those letting goes as getting closer to who you really are.

But for me, the, the prize is authenticity, is being able to really live in a way that feels authentic to ourselves.

You know, fear, fear can be a great ally if we learn to, to walk with it.

And if we understand that it's pointing to something that is really important that we change.

And one of the, um, just the thing as you were talking there about, of course, you know, remembering that the value of letting, letting go, essentially allowing you to sort of descend back into, to kind of step back into who it is that you are, that kind of authentic idea, you were, you were talking, um, when you first kinda sort of articulated the,

the, the journey about how, you know, ultimately in a, in a point of difference to the hero's journey, um, and you were sort talking about the Herman journey at the heart of that being a, a call to, to to kind of follow your dreams, a call to creativity, a call to I guess in a sense then my kind of understanding of that, this kind of creating of the heart.

And, uh, that was, I, I found that really kind of beautiful.

Not least because I was thinking about, uh, my, like often it, it's sort of struggling with understanding what my work would best be over the kind of last, last years in some way.

Really sort of just sort of struck that I am really dreaming.

And, um, so, you know, that kind of manifesting sort of, you know, not concentrating and really flitting around from different things.

But this kind of, this idea that at the heart of this journey somewhat is, uh, is the kind of permission to, and the, the opportunity just to kind of just to occupy that space, um, is a real kind of heartening thing and kind of feels, again, such an important kind of invitation given the kind of, the, the times of change that we, we live in.

Absolutely.

It's the ultimate invitation to be ourselves.

But in order to be ourselves, we need to get to know ourselves.

And there's so much noise.

So it's really a journey of deep listening, of learning to really, really deeply listen to ourselves.

I love the image that you painted of just allowing ourselves to occupy that space, you know, and embracing that part of you that's dreamy.

And that's why he's distracted and that's why he's all over the place, you know?

It's because you're creative and your mind is going in different directions and your heart is pushing and pulling, and that's a beautiful thing, even if it doesn't fit into our organized, structured work days.

yeah, absolutely.

And 'cause that's the thing, I mean, so I, I reflect on these things in part also 'cause one of my boys is 13, nearly 13.

And I can see, you know, obviously, so he's in school and school is, you know, the breeding ground of all of these sort of structures.

The thing you were talking about at the beginning, you know, the, the, the kind of the, the north point on the map, you know, all of the things, which are the normal things to do, of course, where we learn those things directly and indirectly is at school.

It's structured in a certain way.

You're encouraged to think in a certain way.

You are rewarded for thinking in that way.

You know, all of the explicit and implicit kind of signals and, you know, suggestions about what you would do, of course, those things are, are created, are created there.

And I see, I see in him too actually, the, the, the conflict that can then arise between a will to dream, a will to creativity, a will to sort of a bit more floater for want of a better word, sort of floater, freer existence, of course, doesn't function well within those structures.

And that's really the breeding ground for, for lots of people, you know, that's the, that's the terrain essentially, that sets people up for, for the life that they, you know, will then go on to have.

So I guess, you know, it's kind of, it's helping people kind of understand that, that, um, the calling that you were talking about, I guess part of what happens is the calling gets ever more violent in a sense because our ability to hear those signals, um, gets less and less and less and less as we, as we age.

Exactly.

And the calling will never stop until we listen.

So as you said, it'll just get bigger, it'll just get more violent, you know, or aggressive.

So, yeah, I really resonate with what you're saying.

And, and I think, you know, going back to this notion of the feminine qualities and the masculine qualities, to me, at a systemic level, what having feminine qualities integrated into the educational system might look like is having moments in the day when kids are able to rest.

Having creative subjects not be secondary subjects, but be some of the main subjects.

allowing for kids to dream and potential that instead of trying to fit them into a box, really nurturing kids' creativity and their capacity to ask for support and receive support, not just become self-sufficient.

So that's an example.

That's one example of how embracing feminine qualities or infusing our educational system with feminine qualities would serve us so well.

And that's something that, that I would just love to see in all layers of society.

Not just education, but in politics.

You know, like what would it look like for leaders to really have to do the inner work to look inward, confront their shadow so they're so that when they get to a position of power, they're being led by a strong connection with their inner wisdom, and not by all the bullshit trauma that they're projecting onto everyone and onto the world.

You know, we have all these traumatized leaders now, that are hungry for power, for all of the wrong reasons, and are projecting their shadow onto everyone else, you know, and the world and Mother Nature and other people, and it's just, it's reckless, it's very, very worrisome.

And I really do think that a lot of the things that we're seeing at a societal macro level are the lack of people's ability to look inward and to take responsibility for the things that they need to heal, for the shadows that they need to confront and integrate.

There's nothing wrong with having shadows.

We all have shadows.

We're made of light and shadow.

But pretending that we don't have shadows is the problem.

We need to look at them consciously, see them, integrate them, and understand how to compensate for the shadows that we have so that we don't fall into Sikh power dynamics, right?

And I, and I don't wanna get too political about it, but this is, this is just what I mean of how taking into account both the feminine and the masculine, right?

Because if we're, if we're only in the feminine, then we're just like.

You know, I, I have friends, for example, that have taken a workshop with me.

And after the workshop they'll say, you know, I think that my issue in my life right now is that I'm leaning too much into the feminine.

I need more of that action oriented energy.

Like, I feel like I'm in Lala land all the time and I'm completely unaware of time, and I can rest for days, but I have a lot of issues like getting things done, and I want more of that action oriented energy and more of that ambition.

And so it's all about a balance.

It's not about demonizing masculine qualities or demonizing feminine qualities.

It's about finding a way to balance them to integrate both of them within ourselves and to understand that all of us as human beings have both energies coexisting inside of us.

And I think that what this person was talking about when he was talking about the ma mature masculinity and the how important initiation was for him and all this stuff, it's, it's of course like we need an integration.

It's not, I think we have to be very, very careful about not saying by condemning patriarchy, we're not rejecting masculine qualities.

We are pointing to the fact that we've been living in a society that overvalues masculine qualities and rejects feminine qualities sees them as a weakness.

And we're seeing the cost of that now.

So it's not about now going on the other side and just rejecting these masculine qualities.

I love the masculine qualities in myself.

I love that I'm able to, to get things done and to progress and to be successful in different areas and different projects.

Like, I, I really love those qualities in myself.

But I wanna, I don't wanna be defined by them.

I don't wanna feel like if I'm not doing something productive, I'm wasting my time.

I don't want to be allergic to resting, you know, like I don't wanna be disconnected from my body.

And those, those are the sacrifices, those are the costs that I've made by over identifying with masculine qualities in order to succeed in a capitalist, patriarchal society.

So, again, I don't wanna get rid of them.

They've served me well in a lot of ways, but I want to bring back the feminine.

I wanna connect with the feminine.

And that applies for women and it applies for men, and it applies for anywhere where you might be in the spectrum.

And, and that's why we did, we made kind of a more integrated map that wasn't just for women, because I really don't believe that heroin's journey is a journey for women.

I believe it's a journey we all need to make as human beings.

It's the inward journey.

It's the journey that leads to creating and building and cultivating that refuge within ourselves so that we can rest within ourselves, so that we know ourselves, so that we love ourselves, so that we can be ourselves authentically without fear, without shame.

So that we can recognize ourselves as interdependent beings.

it's, it's such a beautiful path and, and I really urge humanity to take it, right?

I think we're gonna be a lot better off if we summon the courage to do it.

Yeah.

One.

I mean, and so yes to all of that would be the, the first thing I say.

And also, I just want to kind of reiterate, I think the part, my interest in this was that not a feeling that what you were talking to was somehow for women, but that it was very kind of clear to me that what you were talking to, and so then by extension, I hope, you know, the people who are over listening,

overhearing our conversation over tea, uh, in our respective houses, you know, I kind of, I feel too those people will understand this is not about men or women.

This is about kind of understanding the whole kind of melting pot of who we are and the opportunity of understanding that whole melting pot of who we are.

So I think, you know, I, I kind of feel and understand that really clearly, and I hope by extension, anyone who's eavesdropping does too.

And so I'm kind of curious.

So you've, you've referenced your, your podcast, which I will include links to.

And I guess one, one of the questions, which links to, uh, links to that is, you know, we were just talking about schools, for example.

I guess, you know, there's so many different ways, you know, you could focus your work in this.

How, how are you serving this work at the moment?

I think the way that I'm servicing this work is by bringing compassion and inspiration into these moments of great transition, into these terrifying moments, as you were saying.

You know, the work that I've done for most of my life revolves around nonviolent communication, which is really about empathy.

And when I learned about empathy, speaking about how we teach what we need, I realized I had so little empathy for myself.

I was packed with internal demands, so much self judgment, um, inner critics, inner criticism, you know.

And, and I think that, as I've gotten to learn about these themes and even teach about them, what I've realized is that we're all plagued with these internal voices, right?

And so I have felt a very strong calling to accompany other people that are going through these moments of change so that they can really have that support in surrendering to the control and, and develop a spiritual practice around embracing the unknown and the impermanence of things.

And I'm doing that through the podcast because the podcast is conversations with really amazing, successful, beautiful, big hearted people that have been through the most excruciating moments of pain and change and suffering and fallen expectations and betrayal.

So it's kind of this, this hope that, you know, to inspire others.

Like there is another side to this, you know, like we won't be in the descent forever.

And there's beauty, there's beauty coming our way.

We need to trust, we need to, hold on.

So, so my hope is that with those conversations of the first season, that by the way, go deeper into each one of the phases in case people are wanting to learn more about each of the phases and its characteristics, was to accompany people via airwaves.

But I also started doing one-on-one mentorships and coachings for people that are going through big moments of transition so that they can do so.

With support and with a lot of empathy and, and compassion.

And yeah, it's, it's, I'll, I'll include all the links to the podcast.

I've listened to the English version.

'cause as you say, it's a podcast which exists in English and in Spanish.

And, uh, so for those who are able, they can dance between those two things.

Um, and so you've, you kind of made reference to another season of the podcast coming.

Is, is that, how, how formed is that as an idea?

Um, it's formed, but we're only starting with the interview, so we're gonna launch it in May or June of this year.

My heroine's journey is taking me to India in March, so I'm gonna be out all of March, and I'm gonna be at a, at a big festival here in Costa Rica called Envision, actually talking about the heroine's journey and conducting a ritual and a workshop, um, and then I'll be out of the country.

So we're, we're really, uh, doing most of the interviews in April so that they can be ready by May and June.

And we're also doing an international retreat in Costa Rica in November.

So if people are interested in that, or the mentorships, the one-on-one, maybe they can contact me via LinkedIn, um, because we haven't launched the retreat yet, we're launching it in April and it is for English speakers.

So I'm hoping that our listeners from the UK and from the States and anywhere else in Europe and the world who really feel a calling to go through these transformational processes.

In community and to understand more and to bring in the Ritualist and sisterhood part of it, which is so powerful that they'll be interested in joining us.

I would love to host you.

And so that, that's for people who I guess have a kind of a feeling that they are at a point of transition, at a point of change.

Something is either very kind of clearly seen and known or something is kind of felt, that there is this kind of rumbling, bumbly sort of disconnect is existing.

So be four kind of people who, who are at that kind of point to take them on a journey through that?

Yeah, exactly.

It, it's for people who are, who feel that calling, who feel they're, they may be at a crossroads.

It could be also for people who are grieving something very profound and want a safe space to do that.

And it could also be for people who are looking to have another tool, map, guide in their box of tools to help them understand their stages of development in life.

Or people that wanna connect with nature, with the power of ritual, the power of going through transformational and alchemical processes in community.

So yeah, while it would be super useful to actually be at a crossroads, it could also be that, you know, you're just curious about these topics and about learning more about this tool and map, to be able to apply it to yourself or help other people that are going through moments of change.

Brilliant.

One, one of the things I was curious to just end with, I think in some way you've written about, on one of the stages of the journey, there's this, there's talking about, um, I can't remember the exact words you used, but this idea of kind of looking under the veil, that somehow in this kind of process there is something revealed.

And I was kind of reflecting on that and more generally just the role that, you know, A and I appreciate this is a lot about context, but the, the kind of a kind of world time question.

Like for me, uh, one of the ones when one of my kids was four, I remember him saying to me, uh, you know, Why, why do you work, Daddy?

And it was like, uh, give about the context and the time, but it was a really profound kind of revealing question.

It kind of really ripped away the veil, because, you know, there's all of the obvious first things that people say about that, but clearly that was just not what he was asking or what the answer was.

And, uh, I'm kind of really kind of curious and interested in trying to compile these questions which have resonated for people, uh, which have had a, a kind of sort of similar effect in a way of, of helping people see under avail or like apocalyptic questions in a sense, taking apocalypse at that true meaning of the word, which is about to reveal something.

And so, again, a very long-winded way.

So, you know, is there a, is there a question you would like to leave with our listeners?

Yeah.

An interesting question might be What is an area of your life that is asking you to change, or to see something that you might feel resistance to see?

And how can you create the conditions to nurture that question instead of resisting it?

To really embrace that question.

If we see those, those moments as soul callings, you know, our, our, our soul asking something of us, like, what is your soul asking of you in this moment?

Beautiful.

Thank you so much, Christine.

I really appreciate your time and all of this teaching.

It's such a, um, such an inspiring and beautiful topic.

Where can people find more?

Of you and your writing and the talking and the podcast and all of those things?

Well, everything is on my website, so it's christineraine.org, and you can sign up to a newsletter there to find out about the retreat once we launch it, which is the 28th of November to the 1st of December.

It's Thanksgiving weekend.

But also I write a newsletter every month about these topics, and it's in English.

And also on the website are all of the episodes.

Of the first season, but you can find them in Apple and Spotify and all the places where podcasts are found.

And I'm also on LinkedIn, um, which is a new thing that Carlos and Lawrence have insisted on in every, everything I've taken with them, our Happy Startup crew is on LinkedIn, so I'm, I'm, yeah, I am, I'm having a, a more of a presence there and actually checking my messages like once a week, but you'll be able to find me on LinkedIn as well.

Brilliant.

Well, I will include links to all of those things.

Just as a, a kind of final nod to that.

Uh, the LinkedIn thing, actually, the conversation I'm finding, having with more and more people, because every, everyone has such a weird relationship to, it's like, oh God, please don't say it involves me having to do things on LinkedIn.

And it was like saying to me, it's okay, you know, people did work before LinkedIn was a thing.

It's, you'll be okay.

You will find a path.

Uh, you know, you'll, you'll find a path beyond it.

But equally it does also as use this.

I appreciate.

Totally.

right, Christine.

Well thank you so much for your time.

Uh, I really appreciate it and I really enjoyed thinking about it.

Yeah.

I hope people found it useful in some way, and that they felt accompanied and seen and understood in some way.

Um, and whatever you're going through, you are amazing.

You can do it.

Uh, you have tremendous courage and power inside yourself in ways that you don't even think possible, but it's there.

Just trust it and it's, it's gonna be so beautiful on the other side.

Amazing.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you again for listening.

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