After a long hiatus, Driving Instructors and Vision Zero returns, re-framed, re-focused, and rebuilt as a collaboration.

In this relaunch episode, The Instructor Podcast's Terry Cook is joined by road safety professional and former police advanced driver Olly Tayler to explain why the podcast has evolved from Driving Instructors to Vision Zero into Driving Instructors and Vision Zero, and why that word change matters.

This is an honest, wide-ranging conversation about:

1. Why driving instructors are still the most underused road safety professionals
2. how habits, complacency, and “I’ll get away with it” thinking really form
3. the limits of enforcement and the power of education and coaching
4. reading the road, seeing risk early, and planning for “what if?”
5. what the new Road Safety Strategy gets right — and what it misses
6. graduated licensing, minimum learning periods, and post-test risk
7. why drug driving is now the bigger blind spot than drink driving
8. and why real culture change takes years, not press releases

The episode also introduces the idea of a wider monthly panel, a group of road safety professionals and instructor voices coming together to bridge the gap between policy, practice, and the real world.

This podcast isn’t about blame.

It’s about responsibility.

We’re doing our bit for road safety.

What are you doing?

Foreign.

To this latest incarnation of Driving Instructors and Vision Zero, you'll notice a subtle word change there.

Paying attention.

It will come back to in a minute because I am your co host for this podcast because I'm joined by my co host, Mr. Ollie Taylor.

How we doing, Ollie?

Hi, Terry.

I'm really good.

Yeah, really good.

Thank you.

Really good.

Now, delighted to have you on board.

And this is almost a preamble to what the podcast is going to be, because I think it's worth just explaining to listeners what's going on, because I released the Driving Instructors 2 Vision Zero podcast a little while ago.

The idea was to bring the driving instructors to road safety news, to road safety, the road safety people, if you like, and that area, and try and bridge that gap.

And it was always intended to be a limited series, but even with a limited series, I didn't really finish.

It kind of wrapped up and towards the end of that, I got you on as a regular contributor and we were doing, I think, Ollie's 10 minutes or something like that at the end, Ollie's final thoughts.

But it just got a bit too much and kind of got put on the back burner.

But I've always wanted to bring it back.

It's always been there.

I've always liked the idea of bringing the road safety community and the driving instructor world closer together.

So this has been rumbling in my brain for about 12 months and I had this idea and I came to you and said, ollie, what if we did it as a collaboration?

So it wasn't just me doing this podcast.

If you and I did it and we made it, instead of Driving instructors to Vision Zero, Driving Instructors and Vision Zero, I made the whole thing a collaboration.

So I came to you with that.

So I suppose I'm going to throw it open to you and tell me what your thoughts on that were or.

And what your thoughts on that are.

You know something, Terry?

I've.

I've long thought that driving instructors are the forgotten road safety experts.

We recognized that years ago, years and years ago, when the honest truth first was.

Was first.

The concept was first put together.

And there's this huge resource out there, 40,000 rotating professionals who are getting access to all these young drivers, you know, all these young and new drivers, hundreds of thousands a year.

Now, as a former Blue Light driver, Blue Light work, myself, as I'm sure you and many of your listeners will know, one thing that I would have loved to have done, would have been able to sit next to every young driver out there and.

And tell them the truth, Tell them the truth, the honest truth.

Who'd have thought it?

Tell your mistreated about what they're going to be facing once they don't have their instructor sat next to them.

Because actually, let's be fair, in the last 15, 20 years, 10, 15 years, the roads have got a lot trickier.

They've got a lot trickier to navigate.

You know, traffic, road conditions, you know, traffic volumes.

I'm going to have to put it out there early doors, I'm afraid Terry, the general standard of driving amongst the great British public, it isn't great, you know.

Yeah, I might well get some, some, some bite back from that.

But I've spent enough time out on the roads, you know, both in service and since retiring to see some, some really, really poor driving behaviors.

I can give you example.

Okay, this happened last night.

This happened to me last night.

Okay, so coming back from Plymouth, been out for a bike to it in Plymouth.

Coming back from plymouth up the A38 major dual carriageway runs through Devon and Cornwall in vapour.

The dual carriageway that runs through Devon and coming off the dual carriageway up the off, up the off slit in sort of to the town, towards the town where I live.

And as I get to the top of the off slit, now part of the problem is the layout at the top of the off slip in, in all fairness it's, it's a very odd layout.

And as I'm driving up the, the off slip I notice a car coming in from my, from my right and they get to a little give way line that goes on straight onto roundabout.

So the offset finishes on a roundabout but you've got this slightly odd little road coming in from the right.

So this driver clearly wasn't local, decided to indicate left and turn left and start driving down the off slip, literally onto the dual carriageway the wrong way.

So I was like, okay, yeah, they got a dual car drill.

There's going to be a mess going on here.

There really is.

So what I ended up doing was positioning my vehicle to sort of block their way, hoping to God they were going to stop when they hit me, which they did and instantly realized what they'd done.

But just one example there of somebody and they weren't a young driver, they didn't appear to be a new driver.

They were, you know, somebody probably my age or similar just hadn't looked at what was going on.

They just made an assumption, seen, oh, I want to get on the dual carriageway.

I know I'll turn left here.

No no, that's an onslip.

There's big, no entry signs, there's all sorts going on and just a bit ignored, the whole lot.

So I think the idea of trying to improve driving standards, we've got a lost generation of drivers out there.

There is a complete generation of lost drivers who, you know, yes, there are some great drivers out there.

There are some really cool drivers out there, really poor.

And it's trying to find a break in that chain.

Where can we break that chain so we can try and look at improving the next generation of drivers, that the attitudes and behaviors and general standards of driving can be, can be raised effectively.

But there has to be a point where we can do that.

We can't get to the current generation because they've all passed their test and there's no mechanism, there's no means, unless I get disqualified and have to take an extended retest.

And that's the minority very much, not the majority.

So, so where do you, where do you input that, that education, where do you input that training, that coaching when they're learning to drive?

You know, it's the obvious point.

So actually why not use driving instructors and as, as that conduit into.

And, and, and by giving driving instructors the information, giving them resources to do that, encouraging driving instructors to play their part in road safety, to step up to the plate, to be the road safety professionals that they are.

Yes, of course.

Driving instructors role is to teach you teach a drive, somebody how to drive.

That is, that is their role.

Of course it is.

And as you, you may just see my presentations I've made, Terry, I've done over the years, Terry, and I always ask the question, you know, what is your role as a driving instructor?

And somebody will always give me the answer.

Create safe drivers for life.

Love it.

You've got to love a nice corporate answer.

Great corporate DDSA answer there.

Love it.

Absolutely love it.

When is in fact the reality is, if you ask the person who's paying for the lessons how fast and how fast and how cheaply, all they're interested in is getting that person through their test, you know, safely.

They're not, they're not really thinking three or four steps ahead as to what does it mean when a new driver has their license, when a young driver gets that practical test pass certificate, what does that actually mean?

All it means is they were good enough at that time on that day to pass a minimum DBSA standard.

It doesn't mean anything more than that.

And actually so long as they've got the information so long as they've got had the coaching while they've been learning to drive about the risks and the challenges they're going to face once they pass their test, then that should make them a safe driver for life.

But they need to have that coaching, they need to have that information.

So when they are faced with a situation that they maybe haven't been faced with before, or they don't have that instructor sat next to them as that voice of reason to say, slow down.

Now that car in front of us has slowed down a lot quicker than we are, I might want to think about slowing down a bit quicker now.

They've got to make these decisions for themselves to actually I using the driving instructor community to be able to deliver those messages that blue lights local authority road safety professionals would want to be delivered to those new drivers, then.

Absolutely.

Driving instructors have got a really, you know, they are fundamental in Vision Zero.

Fundamental.

It's, it's, it's, it's the no brainer for me.

And I never understood why it hadn't been done before.

And I think as far as I'm aware, the Honest Truth is one of the very first campaigns that actually recognized the value that driving instructors brings to the road safety community and that they should be treated as road safety professionals.

Of course you should, because you are.

I think I've kind of identified the problem we're going to have already in that.

I've got six, 16 different things I want to respond to from that, Ollie, but at least the next 16 episodes planned.

But I will make a couple of points in response to that, and this is that I don't think that this podcast is aimed at driving instructors.

I think it's aimed at road safety professionals.

But I want it to be accessible for Dr. Instructors.

I think that's kind of what we've spoke about because I think that a lot of the road safety content that is out there isn't always accessible because it isn't always necessary or it's framed in a way that, you know, a driving instructor, me would have to completely change it or revamp it to use it.

You know, something like the Honest Truth as an example is aimed at driving the instructors.

So I think that going forward, this podcast is at least be accessible.

It's driving instructors and Vision Zero.

And I think that's the big thing.

But it was interesting what you were saying there about the role of a driving instructor because I've given this a lot of thought over the last, well, God knows how many years actually, but primarily last year.

And I think I've just broke it down to what our job is, to help people learn in a safe environment.

That's my definition of a driving instructor.

But coming to your point of what the public wants, I think I push back against that slightly, actually, in that, yes, there are those people out there, of course.

How fast can I learn?

What's your pass rate?

How cheap are you?

You know, those sort of questions.

But there's an awful lot of people, there's a growing number of people actually, that don't ask those questions, that come to you and say, my friend said you helped her with her anxiety, you know, or that I saw you doing turning road.

And I think now we're going to test it more.

You know, do you do motorway lessons, you know, that come with these types of questions rather than just.

Than just those?

So I don't think it's quite.

I get the point you're making, but I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as that.

And this is where I think that we're at an opportunity.

I will speak about the road safety strategy in a little bit, I'm sure, but I think we're at an opportunity with this road safety strategy that's come out and some of the other changes recently.

Well, there's an opportunity for culture change.

I really believe that.

And like you said, there's a lost generation, won't be able to affect a lot of those, but we can affect the youth, you know, And I've told this story somewhere before, but it sticks to me.

It's a little bit crude, so forgive me, but I remember watching Billy Conley years ago, and it was telling a story about how we had.

I'm not going to do the accent, by the way, and offend a lot.

Of people, but he had gone, terry, do the accent.

We'll see.

I did an entire podcast once on Scouse Accent to raise money for the big learner.

Really, that's another story, another day.

But if you're talking about getting his belly button pierced and he got his belly button pierced, and the person that did it afterwards said, that's one more of us and one less of them.

And I think of that when people pass a driving test, you know, when someone passes with an instructor that has not just taught them to pass a test, but actually taught them to think about their driving and taught them and gave them some additional experience and actually got them thinking about, you know, if.

Then those sort of scenarios.

Well, that's another one of us on the road.

You know, it's swinging everything in our favor.

So yeah, I think I would maybe push back gently on what you were saying there.

And you know something Terry, that's really encouraging to hear, really encouraged to hear that, that the next generation are asking the questions that you would want them to ask.

Not just how fast, how cheap or how quick and how cheap, but they're actually looking slightly broader.

So maybe there is, maybe there is a, maybe there is a very subtle change in culture coming.

Maybe there is, maybe all this education that is, is undertaken by local authorities, by the road safety partnerships working that they, the work they do with young people in schools, in colleges, in things like that.

Well, maybe, maybe there's just a very subtle shift now towards young people and new drivers actually asking the questions they should be asking rather than those historic questions which, which I've alluded to.

So no, you absolutely push factories.

You know, I have no problem at all with that.

And it's, it is nice to see that maybe the thought processes are beginning to shift now.

The thing is this is a generational change we're talking about.

We're not going to get a change overnight.

That's the problem.

You're not going to change the attitude and behavior of the generation of drivers in one night, in one podcast.

This is something that has to be drip fed over a significant period of time and we're not going to see the results of those.

So maybe three to four to five years when we start to see these collision rates and these, the stats and things starting to drop.

You know, they, they, they obviously climbed and climbed.

Then they start, there was a significant decline.

You know, we've got a bit of a plateau.

So you know, this, things, things have worked, things have reduced.

These, these ksis killed and seriously injured, which is the ultimate aim, the vision zero aim.

Of course it is.

But we, we appear to have plateaued that there's something as, as kind of come slightly unstuck somewhere on the line which has, which has reversed that downward trend.

And it's, it's, you know, it's not where I think anybody wanted to be, be it driving instructors or any of the safe professional out there.

I think that potentially goes back to what you were saying before in the problem is drivers, you know, if you look at that, the safe system, you know, the roads, potholes aside, the roads are Generally getting better.

Cars are definitely getting better.

You know, post crash care is improving speed.

Well, not is improving because we're putting better speed enforcement in place.

You know, look at Wales with a twenties on as the example.

The problem is still drivers as you alluded to, you know, and I don't think we're in a place where those other four pillars can compensate for the poor driving enough, yet there's still issues in those areas.

You know, when you were talking before about the driving being bad, I was thinking about other areas as well.

And I think the infrastructure on the road and road layouts can cause problems as well.

There's a junction by me and I'm getting very specific and niche here, but it's, this is by me and there's a, it's a crossroads light control, crossroads.

But next to the, the lights as you come towards them is there's two lamps, two street lights either side.

Well, one street light and one light in someone's garden.

And unless you're looking directly at that traffic, traffic light, it always looks like the amber lights on.

So if you're coming towards those lights and you're, you're not looking directly at it because obviously you might glance or whatever.

The number of people that I see running or running a red light or breaking aggressively like that and it's just really poor layout.

And I've, you know, reported this, but nothing's been done about it.

And I think that that's buff.

That is where the drivers aren't paying enough attention, but the infrastructure isn't compensating for that as well.

So we need to be paying more attention for when the infrastructure isn't good enough, don't we?

Yeah, and you're absolutely right, Terry.

And there are parts of the infrastructure that, you know, and that's, that's one of the parts of the pyramid is the engineering side of it.

You know, you have enforcement engineering and education and there's a place for all three.

There absolutely is.

But actually, you know, if you're looking to try and change aptitude and behavior towards driving, you've got to look at, you know, you've got to look at the education.

You know, the education has to be the founder, the foundation to making those behavioral changes, whether that's being through instructors in coaching people when learning to drive or through road safety partnerships and road safety professionals when they're engaging with certain road user communities now, whether that be through things like diversion from prosecution courses.

So you're careful, considerate driving what's driving you, your speed Awareness, things like that, that's all education and that's all aimed at trying to.

Trying to change the behavior of those drivers who have fallen foul of the.

Fallen foul of the law.

Now, big question for me in all this, Terry, is why do people do what they do?

Why do people do what they do?

So we get to the why, then you can then start to look to how to fix it.

But until we understand the why, it's really, really tricky to understand.

It's really tricky to try and work out.

Well, actually, we know why it's happening.

We can then, you know, work out what we need to do to try and stop it happening.

So why.

Why do people think it's.

This is just an open question.

Why do people think it's all right to drink and drive?

Why do people think it's all right to ask their phone behind the wheel?

Why do people think it's all right to exceed the speed limits?

You know, why do people think it's all right to drive aggressively?

Is it.

Is it something in their DNA?

Is this.

You know, we're starting to get quite deep now, but is it.

Is it a.

Is it who they are?

Is it in their DNA?

Is it the way they were brought up?

Is it just in their.

Is it their personality?

What is it that causes somebody to behave the way they do on the road?

Once we can understand what causes them to behave like that, then start to look at actually what interventions, what can we put into place to try and reverse that behavior?

Something I've spoken about before is how do you choose which laws to break?

How do you choose which rules to break?

Because, I mean, you're talking to an ex police officer, but I'm sure even you might break a law from time to time, Ollie, one way or another.

Or a rule, I should say, maybe not a law.

And it's like you think of the rules around mobile phone use in a car.

Well, if I'm parked up at the side of the road with my handbrake on, if the engine's running, I can't use my mobile, I can't have that screen on in my hand.

Now, a lot of people think that rule is stupid.

Now, whether you agree or not, for the part that's almost irrelevant, but a lot of people will think that, so therefore they will go, I'm not going to drive using my mobile phone, but I'm literally parked up at side road, my handbrakes on, I'm leaving the engines on because it's freezing and I want the warm air in I'm just going to send this text message, let the person know I'm on my way.

I'm not saying whether I condone that or not, but I'm saying they've chosen to break that, that rule.

That way.

A lot of people go, I can text while I'm driving, it's fine.

I've never had a crash.

I'll be okay.

They choose to break that rule.

And I think that's what it comes down to.

It's how we should.

Because as people, we're inherently selfish.

And I think that when we hear that word, review it as a bad thing.

And it's not.

We're selfish.

You know, we're doing this podcast, Ollie.

Why?

Because we want to improve road safety.

Because we want to improve real safety.

Selfish.

It's what we or I or you want is selfish.

You could say it's a positive selfishness, but it's still selfish.

And I think we always look for those things and it's priorities.

You know, what are you prioritizing?

Making sure 100% that you don't crash or telling your, your mistress that you're on your way, you know, while you're driving, so you don't have to pull up and do it and whatever.

You know, it's to me that that's what it comes down to.

It's we're inherently selfishness is.

It's whether you're willing to sacrifice some of those things.

There was a.

A post recently on the Adi NGC Facebook page talking about the doctor in Greenwood is the new patron of the Adi ngc, which is fantastic.

Someone's commented, talking about, how dare you talk about this stuff.

I want my freedoms, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And that's what people want.

They don't want the restriction of having to drive at 30 miles an hour.

It's my freedom.

I should be able to do what I want.

The Magna Carta says so, you know, and I think that's ultimately what it comes down to.

And I think that we've got to be honest and say there are some people we'll never reach because they value their selfishness too much.

And there are some people that go, yeah, actually, do you know what?

There were four lads that died in Bolton recently.

There was someone that I critically injured on this corner the other day.

Maybe I will just wait some part up with my handbrake on, break that rule rather than this rule.

Yeah.

And, you know, and that's a really, really interesting point that you make, Terry.

And I think a lot of it comes down to, there's a, there's still this, this huge, this huge attitude of it'll, it'll never happen to me.

You know, it'll never happen to me.

You know, nobody I ever dealt with who was involved in a high end serious or fatal collision what had came to me afterwards and said, oh, I knew that was going to happen today.

Yeah, I went out, I went out intending that to happen today.

Well, no, they don't, they don't.

They happen to very ordinary people when they least expect it, often as not because somebody, whether it's them or another, somebody has made a conscious decision to do something.

So somebody has made a conscious decision to complete an injudicious overtake.

I love that word, injudicious word for you to use in.

Sorry, I don't know what it means.

Injudicious.

So basically injudicious would, would be an overtake that wasn't there.

So they, they, they went to overtake a vehicle and there just wasn't an overtake there to be to be hacked basically.

And as a result lose control.

You know, when you overtake it, obviously you know, when you're in complete and overtake there's a, there's a high probability you are going to have to exceed the speed limits.

You know, you, you then you're traveling fast and you need to post speed limit, lose control of the vehicle, vehicle crashes or you know, into a bend or whatever it might be and it all goes horribly wrong from there.

So, so, so people this, this whole idea of it and it'll be, it'll be okay, you know, I've got away with it once or I'll get away with it a second time.

I'll get away with it the third time.

Well, I'll get away with the fourth time.

Well, I've got away with it four times.

I get away with it fifth time.

Trouble is, the sixth time they don't get away with it but they become, you've got this air of complacency that when you've done something once and you think, okay, well you know, I, I glance at that text, I responded to the text, I, you know, I, I had a drink and didn't get caught by the police.

You know, whether was I over the drink drive limit?

Yeah, well it's probably borderline, but actually, yeah, well I didn't get away with it because, you know, I got away with it because police didn't stop when I didn't crash.

So we get this air of complacency around these things that people go, well, it's okay, because I've got away with it before, so I'll get away with it again.

That is, until they don't get away with it.

By the time a vehicle is out of control or somebody has had a collision, regret, it's too late for regret, far too late, because actually the outcome has now happened.

And every time, every time, you know, I tell you what, I tell you what, Terry, I quite liken it to a roll of a dice.

So whenever you, whenever you undertake something on the road that you really shouldn't be, that is in breach of road traffic legislation and that could be anything, what you're in effect doing is you're rolling, you're rolling a dice, basically.

So you roll a pair of dice.

So you roll a pair of dice.

Eventually probability says you are going to roll at double six.

At some point you are going to roll that double six.

Okay, might not be the first time on the second half, might not be the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth time, but it's going to, it is going to come up because probability says it's going to come up.

So when that double six does appear, that you roll that double six, that's when you're going to lose everything.

That is when you're going to lose, you know, you're going to lose your job, you're going to lose your license, you're going to potentially lose your liberty.

You could end up injuring or killing yourself or somebody else.

And every time somebody undertakes and makes a conscious decision to do something behind the wheel that they really shouldn't be doing because they know it's against the law, all they're doing, in effect, is rolling a dice out.

And their time, you know, it is going to come and suck them at some point, and it's going to be when they least expect it.

I fully agree.

You know, I, I, I'm not a big poker player, but I used to play a bit.

One time I got overall flush and it's like just that, that one time, but I played Lords.

So at the time I was playing a lot.

I was playing almost every day, but only one time did I ever get overall flush.

I didn't get anywhere near it any other time.

And it's that principle in it.

It's like you can go driving every day.

You may come to the same junction every day when nothing ever comes until it does.

But the more you come to that junction, your brain's kind of just going, yeah, well, now it comes.

You don't need to slow down as much, you don't need to slow down.

And then you go from not slowing down as much to not stopping, and then you go from not stopping to not checking at all.

And then you're screwed.

If someone comes and it's that idea of driving for what if in it, what if this thing happens that almost certainly won't.

And I think that's part of the problem because the fact that it almost certainly doesn't, you know, that the subconscious takes over.

But I also think sometimes there's some conscious decisions in there as well.

The idea of it's my car, I can do what I want.

You know, I said this recently that you say that being a bit specific here, but an Englishman's home is his castle.

I think it's changed.

I think it's his car.

I think an Englishman's car is his castle now.

I think that's how a lot of people view it.

This is my car still.

Your phrase, my car, my rules.

But it's.

I'm not having good rules.

My rules are I can use my phone, I can break the speed limit.

You know, I joke a lot.

I do a lot of teaching in Bradford.

Not as much I used to, but we joke about Bradford rules.

You can park on double your lines as long as you're on the pavement, you know, you can park on, keep clear or whatever as long as you put your hazards on, you know, Bradford rules that a lot of people actually do go by in Bradford.

So I think there's.

There's elements of subconscious there, but elements of conscious decision as well.

There is absolutely, there is both.

You will have those subconscious decisions that you make because you've driven down the same piece of road a hundred times and the same thing happened a hundred times until the 101st time when it doesn't happen the same way.

Now, one of my.

I was very fortunate during my 30 year career in policing, Terry, that I was able to undertake a huge amount of additional driver training.

Huge amount.

In fact, I worked out when I sort of was coming to the end of my time, I worked out I had somewhere in the region of about 900 hours of additional driver training throughout my career.

Huge amount of additional driver training for advanced driving, advanced motorcycling, advanced pursuit driving, getting reassessed every three years.

There's a whole nother topic about reassessing driving there, but every three years, and that'd be for a week.

So I would have a week of reassessment and every element of my driving was scrutinized for A week to make sure I was still competent and capable of holding the tickets that, that I was, that I've been issued with advanced driving and that sort of stuff.

And it was one of, one of the, one of the, it was an old school police driving instructor many years ago and it was something that always stuck with me and it was all about the four, the four stages of driving.

And this goes around in my head when I'm driving now.

And unfortunate that I've been able to practice it and practice it so much over the years that it's completely second nature and I don't even.

It is in my subconscious.

Okay.

And what this driving instructor said to me, police driving instructor said to me was think about when you're driving along, think about four things, okay?

What can you see, what can't you see?

What can you reasonably expect to happen?

And what are you going to do if things turn out differently to the way you expect?

What is your plan B?

Where is your contingency?

And all it does is when I'm driving, Terry, is that just rolls around inside my head constantly.

What can I see, what can't I see?

What kind of reasons that to happen here?

And it's all about trying to predict the future and using everything around you to predict the future.

And this is where I think an awful lot of people do get it wrong is they, they, they, they get inside their little steel bubble, they think they're completely impervious to everything that steel bubble is.

There is, is their protection.

They don't look far enough ahead, they don't read the road.

You know, they're not looking for those subtle clues around them, be it paint on the road.

The more paint, the more danger.

I was always taught more paint, more danger.

There's a lot of paint on the road.

There's danger.

Have a think about it.

You know, signage, the weather, other road users.

There's so much stuff out there, so much the smell of freshly cut grass, right?

Where's that hedge trimmer?

You know, where is the hedge trim?

I can smell freshly cut grass or freshly cut vegetation.

There's a hedge trimmer somewhere and it's going to be around the next bend, doing two mile an hour, I can guarantee it.

Around the next bend, sure enough, they're the hedge trimmer, you know.

But it's picking up on these little subtleties and, and looking at actually how, how is what I'm seeing.

It's all about looking.

We look, but do we see things we see all day, every day we look at them all day, every day.

But do we actually understand what those things we see mean and how we can use those, how we can use this so much out there?

We can use Terry to help us build a picture.

So all we're trying to do is to build a picture, a reasonable picture of the road ahead of us.

What can I reasonably expect to happen ahead of me?

The dustbins are out side of the road.

There's a reasonable expectation I'm going to come across a bin, Laura somewhere, things like that.

You know, there was a, there was a great one.

I was doing a driving assessment a few months ago down in Deacon, deepest darkest Cornwall.

And it was, it was just myself and the driver I was doing an assessment for and it was in a, it was a country road and we were heading into a sweeping left hand bend and the road narrowed as, as we were coming into it.

And as we approached the bend and we were assuming a fairly wide bit of road, I said to the delegate that I was assessing, I said, you might just want to hold back here for a moment and just let that feeling coming the other way come through because this road narrows down quite a bit and we don't want to get into a pinch point and start having to reverse because that's when the majority of our low speed, low speed manoeuvre, inclusions occur.

We want to try and keep going in the forward direction as much as possible.

And this driver looked at me slightly ugly because they didn't see a vehicle.

And in all fairness, neither could I. I couldn't see a vehicle either, but I knew there was a vehicle coming.

So anyway, we sat there in this wide spot where we knew there was enough room for people to get past us.

We sat there for three or four seconds and people didn't appear.

And the driver was just about to pull forward, start to pull forwards, having thought, what's this guy about?

And I said, just hang on one second.

Literally, as I said it, vehicle comes into view around the corner and plenty of room for the vehicle to pass away.

We then continued our journey.

And anyway, the driver left it a few sort of 20, 30 seconds and said, I've got to ask, how on earth did you know that vehicle was coming?

When did you see it?

I said, I didn't see it.

He said, well, how can you, how did you know there was a vehicle coming?

I said, right, let's go, let's roll, roll your mind back.

Tell me what you saw as we came into that, as we came into that bend, what did you see?

And the, the driver said, I saw a woman walking a dog.

Said, yep, I saw the same woman walking a dog.

I said, where was that woman walking the dog?

Well, she was on the right hand side of the road.

And whereabouts was she in relation to the bend?

She was into the bend.

Said, okay.

So I said, what else?

What did the woman do?

She said, didn't do anything.

Said, are you sure?

So just cast your mind back and think, what did the woman do?

And he said, she tugged the dog's lead.

I said, exactly, she tugged the dog's lead to pull the dog a bit closer into her.

I said, straight away, that told me she's seen something coming towards her.

And the reason she hadn't picked up on us was because she didn't look backwards, but she didn't look behind her meant that she hadn't picked up on us.

She was halfway through the bend on the.

Walking the dog on this country road, could clearly see around the bend and could see something coming towards her because she left tiny little subtle, just tucked the dog into water.

So the driver had seen everything I'd seen that hadn't made the connection between what they'd seen and what it meant.

And I could say, I said, that's how I knew there was a car.

I knew there was a. I didn't know what it was.

I knew there was a vehicle coming.

And suddenly the penny dropped and the driver went, oh my God, I can't believe that that was such a simple thing.

Yet I saw everything you did.

But I didn't make that connection.

I said, there's a difference.

It's about seeing what we're looking at.

Looking or, you know, looking, but seeing as well.

And that very subtle movement from that pedestrian told me everything I needed to know, that I needed to hold back here and let that be.

Come through just as a, just as a really simplistic example of we look, but do we see.

And that for me is a key to it is using everything around us.

And Terry, it's easy for me to sit here and talk about this and say, because I was able to practice it every single day.

But there's no reason that anybody else out there can't practice the same.

They can practice these skills.

They aren't.

There are.

It's.

None of it is rocket science is all skills that people can develop themselves.

They can go out and they can look for these signs and go right, I can see a woman walking a dog.

She's tugged the dog towards her.

What's that?

Realistically, what you Know what can I see?

I can see a woman walking a dog, tug the dog into next to her.

What can't I see?

I can't see what she's looking at.

What can I bring this back to happen?

Well, I can reasonably expect that to be a vehicle coming towards me on the basis of what I've just seen.

What am I going to do if things turn out differently?

What's my contingency plan?

Well, if it turns out there's nothing coming, I'll continue my journey.

But actually, I've now made a conscious decision to hold back here because there's a wider bit of road to let that vehicle come through, so we don't meet in the middle at a pinch point.

So that's, for me, is, you know, but it's skills that people can learn and they don't have to have any specific training for it.

All they need to do is they need to.

Need to not just look when they're driving, but see and look far enough ahead to be able to make these reasonable assumptions as to what's coming up next, what's coming up in the next 500 years, what's coming up in the next five to 10 seconds?

Because actually, the earlier that you can recognize potential hazard, the earlier you can make a decision about what you're going to do about it.

So actually, if you've got more time to think about that decision, you're going to make a better decision out of it.

Of course, there are going to be times when you have to make a snap decision because something unfolds in front of you really quickly.

So you're going to have to think, right, I'm going to need to make a decision and I need to make it now, whether I'm going to stop, whether I'm going to pull to one side, what am I going to do?

But if you can read the road properly, if you can read the road ahead by looking at shadows, looking at telegraph poles.

Let's not talk too much about telegraph poles.

There was bit of controversy over that when I did that with the Road Safety Week.

But anyway, lamp posts, bus stops, dust bins, really simple things.

The five takeaway things that I look at when I'm out driving that can give me a really good picture of what I can reasonably expect to happen in the next five to 10 to 15 seconds, only if I slow down.

At every one of those occasions, I may add two or three minutes onto my journey.

Oh, no, sorry.

The.

The interesting thing, and that is.

And here you go, here's Another problem, you're absolutely right.

People won't wait at a pinch point or a narrow bit of road because that'll have three seconds to their journey.

And that three seconds is vitally important to them.

The fact that actually if they get caught in the middle and then it's a bit of two and throwing backs and forwards, that's actually probably cost them 30 seconds to a minute.

But they don't look at it like that.

They think, well, if I wait here, I'm going to have to wait for three seconds, five seconds for this vehicle to come through.

Well, that's five seconds out of my day.

Well, hang on a minute, you've actually got there safely and there's been no risk to anybody and it's cost you five seconds.

So you're absolutely right in what you say, well, that's going to cost me a whole five seconds.

The thing is, often as well, if you're planning properly, it'll save you time because you're slowing down in advance so you don't have to stop.

But even with that example you gave there, it's like I can hear the criticisms of that, if you like, of people saying, yeah, but how many times won't there be something there?

And I just think in those scenarios it don't matter because all you've done is you made it safe in case there's something there, that should be the priority.

And I've always kind of taken this approach and I think I take it to driving test, but I take it to real life driving as well.

So on the driving test, I'll say if you go into a driving test where your standard of driving is 7 out of 10 and you get nervous on your driving test, what's going to happen?

You're going to lower your standard to a 5 out of 10.

You're a hell of a lot like it'll pass.

If your standard driving is a 9 out of 10 or even a 10 out of 10 and you get nervous, you drop to a 7, you're probably still going to pass.

And it's same for driving.

If your day to day driving is a, is a really, really high standard.

Ollie Taylor standard driving.

Well, the day that you're not quite on it because you're slightly under weather or whatever, your drive is still going to be to a high standard because you're not dropping from that lower standard anyway.

So the more consistent your high standard is, even on your off days, because we're all human, you're still gonna be driving well.

But I think that I'm really tempted to ask about how we fix this, but I think we need to save that for another episode.

That's a big question because what we've got is you've got pre test, I think we've got post test and I think that most people, when they think of that, they think instructors, pretest and enforcement, if you like post test.

I think there's a bigger overlap there than people give it credence for.

But when we're talking pre test and post test, here's a nice segue for you.

The recent road strategy safety, an awful lot of that was put pre test.

But before we get into that, I think it's worth mentioning that as much as you and I are collaborating on this, we didn't want to do it alone.

We wanted to get some even more intelligent people.

I mean, I know that's difficult, but even mine's helping.

That ain't going to be tricky in my case.

Yeah, that could be anybody out there.

So we have assembled a group of, I don't know what wise, clever, intelligent and incredibly good looking people that are going to assemble road safety avengers that are going to assemble once a month for, for this podcast.

We're not going to name them yet.

We've got them on board.

We've got a recording dating, so that will be out hopefully on the 1st every month, starting off on the 1st of March.

So yeah, keep your eye out for that.

We're going to put potentially stuff out in between as well.

So it's not just us that people have to listen to.

They'll, they'll have genuine wisdom as well.

But there has been some news and it's worth talking about this a little bit and maybe we'll get into this a bit more when with the, the road safety Avengers.

But the road safety strategy.

John, give me some, some overall thoughts on this.

Ollie.

Well, you know something, Terry, I think the, the, the biggest, the biggest thought on it is that we have one, that we finally have a road safety strategy after what, nearly a decade.

So that has got to be a huge positive, a huge positive that there is now a road safety strategy out there.

There's some really interesting stuff in it, really interesting bits and pieces in it, particularly when it talks about young drivers and those that are learning to drive back.

That pre test phase, obviously, literally in the week in the news this week has been Northern Ireland introducing graduated driving licenses, which I think is, is a must.

You know, for me personally, I think graduated driving licenses is something that is long, long overdue in the uk, long overdue and it should be.

Or in Great Britain, certainly UK elements of it are all, you know, they're obviously introducing it.

But I think, yeah, whilst, whilst there's a huge amount of positive in the new race safety strategy, I think there are a couple of big ticket items that they've missed as well.

There's a couple of opportunities now.

Why they haven't taking the opportunity to, excuse me.

Taking the opportunity to look at some of the big ticket items, I'm not quite sure.

Is it, you know, is it.

They don't want to, they don't want to be seen to be picking on the motorist, but I don't think it is, personally.

I think actually the end of the day, you know, if they're looking at new legislation, they're looking at, you know, things like doing drive limits and stuff like that.

Well, actually, if you're not committing any offenses on the road, you have nothing to worry about.

If you are a good, sensible, considerate, careful driver, none of this is going to affect you at all.

However, if you're the other end of the scale, where you are the person who the rules don't apply to you, then actually, yes, you have got something to worry about because there's potential there that there's going to be things that are going to make it trickier to be able to behave like that on the roads through enforcement or through that.

So there's a lot of hope, I think that everybody out there, instructors, rotating partnerships, rotating professionals need to understand what part they play in this strategy.

As a, as a drone instructor, what part do you play in this rotating strategy?

Where is, where is your expertise going to sit in this strategy and how are you going to implement your bit of a strategy?

Basically doesn't matter where acts in rotating you sit, how are you going to impact, how are you going to support it?

Interesting you phrase it that way, actually, because it was pointed out to me because I didn't realize it at first, pointed out to me by Stuart Locker, who's the chair of the NJC and the founder of Bright Coaching, that driving instructors aren't mentioned in this road safety strategy.

All.

And if you go right back to what you said at the start of this episode about how we're in this privileged position where we get to work with this generation of drivers that are coming through and then you look at how we're not mentioning this at all, there's a, a mismatch over there somewhere for me.

No, that's a big.

That's one of the big ticket items that was missed was the, the, the, the benefit that, you know, the, the influence, apparent influence driving structures have got.

I think that, I think that that that's, that's one of the big misses, to be honest with you, is that it's, you know, yes, there are, I think driving instructors are becoming more and more recognized by more and more people, are more and more partnerships now for the, the value and the, the expertise and professionalism they bring to the road safety world.

And this, bridging this gap between the two.

There are two worlds.

There's driving instructor world road safety, and then there's the everyone else road safety and actually bringing those two together.

Which is why, Terry, your driving instructors and Vision Zero is just, it's inspired.

It's looking at, let's bring those two worlds together.

You know, we don't want to collide.

We want to bring them in and get them working closer together, which is exactly what we've always said in honest truth, as we've always said we need to be recognizing driving instructors as the rotation professionals that they are.

So why.

Let's include them.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right.

I think they should have been included in the strategy, at least given a nod in a strategy that a real fundamental part of the whole process.

Fundamental part because of what you.

How you can shape the next generation of drivers through behavior, attitude and behavior change, you know, was, as we know, by the time a certain young person gets behind the wheel at 17, they probably have 13, 14 years of driving experience already because they're watching whoever's driving them around.

They're watching mums, dads, aunts, uncles, grandparents.

And if they're the people who rules don't apply to them, and it's fine to pick up your phone, have a drink, see the speed limit, be aggressive, you know, whatever the, those negative behaviors may be that they are, they're learning about or learning from, then actually the driving instructor's job becomes a lot trickier because they have to undo all those, all those rebuilt preconceptions around what is acceptable in a car, what isn't, is and isn't acceptable behind the wheel.

So, you know, if we can recognize the driving instructors and it's a tough job you've got, it's a really tough job in some cases, really, really tough.

But actually the power of influence that you've got, if you get it right as a driving instructor, is immense.

So it's about, it's about co joining forces and joining forces with road safety partnerships with Road safety professionals.

Exactly as you're doing, Ted, to be able to bring all that, collaborate and bring all that expertise and knowledge together to say, right, how are we as a collective going to deliver on this strategy and play our part in it?

Because we've all got slightly different parts to play in the strategy.

But collectively your part in the strategy on its own isn't going to have a huge impact.

But your part of the strategy along with my part of the strategy along with X's, you know, so and so's part in the strategy and somebody else's part in the strategy.

We all do our part in the strategy correctly and we all collaborate on those parts and we, we are this, you know, the sum of those parts has potential to make real change, real change.

So you mentioned there about instructors being recognized a bit more by sort of the road safety sector.

And I did a presentation on this last year, or it was included within a presentation last year that think there's a very specific reason why.

And I think it's because from the outside, from the general public looking at driving instructors, there is a certain perception there which is we're not professional, you know, and you interpret that whatever you want.

That is the stereotype of a driving instructor.

If you look at me, right, overweight, bald, middle aged man, right, I'm the stereotype of a driving instructor in terms of physical appearance.

But in terms of the actual Persona of a driving instructor, they're perceived as not professional.

And I think a lot of the road safety sector still see us that way.

What, where that's starting to shift is someone like yourself, Ollie comes to somewhere like the instructor expo or the convention or the Scottish convention or, or whatever it might be and you see that.

Oh, actually no, there's some really good driving instructors here.

There's some fluid up instructors, there's people that are trying to improve, there's people that have got these great mindsets and innovative, innovative people and you know, all this stuff and you see the best of us.

So then you go, oh no, I ain't got more.

I want to work with these people.

And you know, and I always refer back to A point that Dr.

Box made, Dr. Elizabeth Box.

She talks about driving instructors being coaches, as you've just alluded to where she says it as if we're all coaches.

We know there's a huge proportion of this industry that still A doesn't understand what coaching is or B, doesn't think it's relevant or mean anything.

And you know, newfangled nonsense, newfangled Walk nonsense, right?

But it's because the likes the driving instructors at Dr.

Box and potentially you would see they're good ones, you know, they're the ones that embrace this, this culture, the ones that embrace road safety.

And I think that's where that shift is happening because people are starting to realize, oh no, there's this really good, important core of instructors out there and instructors are seeing the same in this road safety section.

I think that's where it's happening.

The mismatch is the ones that don't care.

And I think this is part of the problem with instructors not being mentioned in the road safety strategy, with instructors not being consulted, with instructors not being bought on board is because how, how do you do that?

And maybe this is a rhetorical question, I don't know, there might not be an answer because you can't talk to every instructor because we're all self employed, off doing his own thing.

And an instructor can go away, shout at students, not do any coaching, teach them test routes, have them pass, and there's nothing that can be done about that.

It's just that's accepted as that.

In fact, that's still classed as the norm, which is what we try to change.

So because we've got this wide disarray of instructors, I don't understand how we can be consulted.

You know, even if you consult with the associations, their associations represent their members and I'm a big fan of the associations, but they're representing their members, not instructors as a whole.

So there is a mismatch there somewhere in terms of the government should be doing more, not the government and whoever it is should be doing more to embrace us.

But also there's just this, such a mismatch within instructors.

And again, Terry, you're absolutely right in what you say and I'm not naive enough to think that there are, you know, that the world is full of rainbows and unicorns.

You know, yes, there are instructors out there and you know, I've had instructors speak to me at Expos and you know, and I had one not that long ago and talks about an honest truth and talked about road safety within driving lessons.

And their comment was if the wheels ain't turning, they ain't learning.

Yeah, okay, well.

Yeah, well, okay, well, we all going to be that, oh, that group I'm never going to get through to and that's absolutely fine and I accept that.

But actually, by working with people like yourself and the Stuart Lockeries of this world or the Tom Stenson's of this world.

And you know, there are plenty of others out there.

There are plenty of the Phil Cowleys, apologies for those I haven't mentioned.

But, you know, there are, there are plenty of people out there who are, who are making a real difference in the industry and actually steering the industry in the way in which it should be going.

And personally, I think that this core of old school driving instructors who, if the wheels ain't turning their learning, are going to become the minority and that actually the likes of you and your, your mindset colleagues have, much like yourself, Terry, are going to start to come the majority and either they're going to have to, they're going to have to step up to the plate or they're going to be left behind.

So that goes on to actually how should, how should new driving instructors be taught, you know, PDI training?

So I'm really keen to work with instructor academies and those that, you know, that have that, that are training the next generation of instructors.

It's, it's going back.

It's exactly the same as we talked about the next generation of drivers.

Actually, let's influence the next generation of drivers.

Well, why don't, why don't we do the same with the next generation of driving instructors?

Why don't we look at next generation of driving shots, say, right, you need to make road safety education a fundamental part of your lesson.

And if they do it from the start, if they do it as part of their training, so by the time they come out of training, they, and they've got their, they go from their pink to their green badge, they get to their green badge and road safety education.

Road safety coaching, sorry, road safety coaching is part of a, a part of a lesson plan, part of a lesson format is something they've always done then.

I've been there.

Instructor DNA.

Well, I've always, I do this, I've always done it rather than, I have to add it in because of everything else.

And that's a bit of, one of the issues is something else I have to do something else I have to do something else I have to do, you know, to, to when teaching something to drive, we'll do it from the outset then, but it's not something you.

Else you have to do, it's something you've always done.

And if you've always done it, you're always, you're always likely to do it.

So again, there's a bit of me thinks actually, should we be looking at going back to the training right back to the beginning and saying, right as A, As a driving instructor, part of your training will be that you will understand coaching road safety and coaching critical road safety elements and topics.

Yes.

Either through honest truth or a.

Another campaign.

You know, there are others out there that's absolutely fine.

I'm not saying we're going to be on Mendel.

Of course we'd like instructors to use us, of course we would.

But there are, there are other options and there are other campaigns out there that you know, driving instructors but equally is used that actually it would almost be a point where it should be mandated as part of your, part of your qualification as a driving instructor.

You need to have a recognized road safety campaign that you will deliver as part of a course of lessons.

Not addition to, but as a part of course of lessons.

So they get, if that's, if that's instilled into their psyche right from the start, then they're going to do that because like I said, it becomes part of their instructor DNA rather than.

I'm going to have to add this into my, my already 110% filled lesson plan that I've already got.

I'm now going to shoehorn something else in.

We'll actually make it pipe from the outset.

Hey, I don't know, common sense, who would have thought it?

Hey, I 100% agree.

And the only thing I want to touch on with this road safety strategy, and I think there's an overlap here, is that I think this is a real opportunity for culture change and as you alluded to earlier, that that takes years.

But what this does, it's getting a lot of publicity and as elements of this come into play, in specific, I think the idea of the six month learning period, whatever that transpires to be, and I think I agree with the people that have said it where that actually may get changed and added to and expanded upon.

But you know, at the minute a six month learning period, that's going to be spoken about a lot.

That's something that every learner will be aware of.

So this is an ideal opportunity to talk about that.

It's an idea to.

It's in the public arena.

And this element of road safety hasn't been before.

It's always been brushed aside, but it's now something that they have to think about.

This is the perfect opportunity to start shifting that culture change.

And yes, the road safety strategy, I think everyone, almost everyone agree it's not gone far enough.

I also think that it could never go far enough.

You know, there's always going to be stuff we'd Want more of.

But I think the other thing I'll touch on here, and this is also the perfect opportunity for me for the road safety sector.

And you do this Ollie, to be fair.

But so much of the road safety sector is focused on the immediate on right now, rather than going, as you again said earlier, let's fix the next generation.

Let's get this generation side.

You know, if.

If every.

As much as if every driving instructor included a road safety campaign, if every road safety campaign included a driving instructor, that's going to have the same sort of impact.

You know, if, if every road safety campaign, I'm not going to list them.

You've already offended 5,000 instructors by only naming for.

So I'm not going to offend all the road safety areas.

But if they had intentional.

Terry, it wasn't intentional.

I did caveat it.

Sorry, he said me, so I'm happy.

But yeah, if every, if every road safety campaign, organization, tariff, whatever, had something somewhere talking about, does your instructor understand what the goals for driver education matrix is?

Does your instructor only teach your test routes?

Does your instructor offer you a pass?

Plus, you know, something talking about this stuff that has the same effect that us having road safety campaigns or training within our lessons has.

I really do because it shifts that focus on that.

Whereas at the minute, right now, all parents and learners, and I'm particularly thinking of the younger learners, but all parents and learners have is, oh, my instructor just wants to get more money from me.

And again, as I said earlier, not everyone thinks that, but if we can shift, use this as the opportunity to change culture as instructors and as the road safety vicinity, I think we have to take this.

This is our opportunity.

We can't throw this away.

No, no.

And I completely agree, Terry, is that there is a golden opportunity here.

Yes, exactly.

As you said.

And you know, and I said as well that I didn't think the road safe strategy went far enough.

There was some, you know, there were some big ticket items that they didn't really get into any detail.

You know, there was, I believe there was a mention of the penalty points.

I'd have to go back through it.

But you know, just to take that as an example, so, you know, there could be a complete overhaul of the point system.

Complete overhaul.

So I've got a question for you, Terry.

Okay.

And I've got, I've got, I've got the answer on my screen in front of me.

I looked at, I had a look at how many people currently in the UK have over 12 points in their driving License.

Okay.

So I was always taught totting up 12 points to lose your license.

Does it, you know, end of.

Yes, people can, people can, can go to court and they can plead exceptional hardship if they lose their license.

And they might get away with, okay, well next time you're going to lose your license.

So There is a 26 year old from North Wales who holds a, holds a valid UK driving license despite accumulating how many penalty points?

27, 26.

26 year old man holds a UK valid UK driving license despite accumulating how many penalty points.

I feel the question edges towards that.

It's quite high.

So I don't know, I'm gonna guess over 12.

229.

No, that can't be.

How.

What?

No, that don't work.

How can some of this.

And there you go.

And there's my exact point Terry, is how has somebody been allowed to at 26, how have they been able to accumulate 229 points on their driving license?

And like I say that's, that's, that's common, that's common, common knowledge.

That's, that's, that's open source on the Internet.

The highest Female is a 50 year old female's got 96 points.

I mean there's two things in play for me there.

One is that for me personally there will come a point where I go, I should probably stop collecting points now, you know, and, but then the system.

Terry, it makes a system.

It means why do we even have a system of points?

Because.

Well, that's the flip side.

Yeah, sorry, I'm interrupting.

Go on.

No, no, you carry on, mate.

No, carry on.

Well, you say that's, that's the flip side of my point.

On one hand I'm thinking I should probably stop collecting.

It's like with my weight, it's like I got to a point where I went, yeah, I'm big enough now, I need to stop, I need to lose weight.

But then there's also the point of I'm still alive, I'm still eating, I'm still fairly healthy, I could keep putting on weight.

And you know, it's that same thing with the points.

He's like, well If I've got 200 and I can still drive, I might as well get to 300, I can drive how I want.

This isn't a problem.

Where's the deterrent and hearing, hearing loss problem?

I know there was, you know, there's all sorts of consultation around the strategy at the moment and you know things about, on, on the roadside temperatures, qualifications at the roadside, 100% for that 100%.

You know, there have been case, there have been cases of people who've been stopped and they, they've, you know, whether drink, drive, for example.

They, you know, you then could have a really extended period between an offence being committed in a court appearance where you are more than likely going to lose your license and people have then gone on and carried on defending on the road.

You know, they, they've been stopped, they've been dealt with for a relatively high end road traffic offense.

They've obviously, you know, they've been charged to court and the court might not be for four, six, eight weeks because of the court system, you know, the backlogs in the court system.

So they're still driving around despite the fact that actually they are going to get disqualified when they get to court and you know, found guilty and all that they then go and commit other offenses or you know, there'd been some really high profile examples where whereas things like actually giving the police the ability to put an interim disqualification at the roadside.

Okay policing, that's going to be interesting.

But you know, would that make people think twice?

So would the whole enforcement of road traffic offending if that was, you know, given a real overhaul.

So that actually if you were caught at the, you know, you were caught committing offenses on the road, on the road, whether it was speeding or mobile phone use or whatever it was that actually the sanctions around that are likely to be far reaching and quite impacted.

Would that make people think twice before engaging in these behaviors or would it make an element?

They're gonna, of course there are gonna be those ones that are gonna go rule that advice to me, you know, chance of me getting caught was actually pretty slim.

So I'm gonna take a chance.

Oh, I got away.

I got away with, I got away with it.

But are we gonna get to a position where a lot of those reasonable law abiding people that could be swayed either way so they could be tempted to pick up their phone, but they know they really shouldn't be, but it was a spur of the moment thing.

If they think if I do that I could actually get my car confiscated at the roadside and be disqualified immediately until I appear in court then actually are we going to have this big, big chunk of people who could be swayed towards actually I need to improve my driving behavior because the sanctions and the consequences are actually pretty serious.

Not, not least of all being involved in a collision.

But actually my means of getting to work is going to be removed from me and I'm going to have a, you know a, an intermediary driving ban.

You know it's very rare that, you know again there are a few cases I dealt with where we got somebody real high in driving defense and they had to be, we had to take them off the road so we'd, you know, get them in front of the next available court and get the court to impose an interim disqualification.

And that can happen.

Courts can impose interim disqualifications while somebody's waiting to be tried for a high end road traffic offense.

Well actually why not extend that further to actually, you know, give police the powers to give an interim disqualification at the roadside.

Controversial, I know but the thing is.

It'S not controversial, it's just the people that are going to complain about freedoms being infringed because they can't do fault uniforms on or whatever but.

No, I agree.

I want to talk just a little bit about because you alluded to it before the, the road, the graduate driving licensing that's going place Northern Ireland.

So I'm going to read through a couple of the key points here just to get your thoughts.

After obtaining a provisional license they will complete 14 modules in the program of training signed off by an ADI or supervising driver that could be a parent or guardian.

The interesting one for me there actually is, it says ADI not PDI.

So I'm curious as to whether PDIs will be allowed to sign off but either way and then There'll also be six months after passing.

Drivers up to the age of 24 may only have one passenger between the ages of 14 and 20 in the car between the hours of 11 and 6pm so some restrictions post her Sarah as well.

Any, any thoughts on this Ollie?

Yes, they really have gone, they really have gone and gone at it hard, haven't they?

They really have.

I have to say Stop Kai, you know there's some fairly, there's some fairly wide reaching, some fairly far reaching consequences in there for young drivers.

I have to say I think that putting it through and saying this is happening, you know this is, this is, this is happening.

It's 1st of October.

I think it comes in doesn't it 1st of October this year it's October.

I don't know the exact date but.

It'S Fairly sure it's 1st of October.

I'll be very interested to see how single thing to me about regular driver and the Northern Ireland model I think is great.

You know there's a, there's some real, there's some real hard hitting restrictions in there.

Real hard hitting but it also those restrictions are completely in line with the risk factors Driving between certain hours at night one or more passengers.

These are the things that we know are massive contributory factors to ksis with young people both as drivers and passengers as victims and as offenders.

But one thing that I didn't see in that and I read an article about it one thing I didn't see was a reduction in alcohol and drug levels which I thought was, was something they, they missed on.

Now I know that the road safety trustee is looking at reducing the alcohol level for new drivers.

Personally I think it should be zero now alcohol driving so drink driving amongst, amongst the current generation isn't too bad.

Okay the message seems to have got through that drink driving is a bad thing.

The problem that we've got with the current generation is drug driving.

That's where our problem is is you know a young, a young, young driver might one know it's, it's not right to sit in you know sit in the corner of a car park neck and cans of Stella other beers are clearly available neck and account Stella you know two o' clock in the morning with their mates and then driving home.

Yeah that's bad but actually sat in the middle of a, you know the corner of a dark car park at 2 in the morning smoking the joint with your mates.

Well that seems to be perfectly acceptable because they don't seem to understand the risks of the drug driving and powers the police have got the penalties associated it's almost identical to drink driving.

So actually drink and drug driving I think should have probably been included in this and the limits for new drivers should be, should be zero.

Absolutely zero.

There's you know there isn't, there is.

That is the limit.

The limit is you know if you've got any drugs in your system, you've got any alcohol in your system then that you know you committed the offense but you know the whole idea of you know I, the big thing I really really like.

I know the rotating strategy is alluded to it as well.

The thing I really like about it is the minimum learning period really like there are those, yes of course there are those out there going to say it's just a moneymaker no, it's not people who think it's a money maker.

That's false economics.

Because actually it's giving that young person more time to gain experience, to get different experience at different road types, different, different times of the year.

You know, it's all very well if, if, for example, these intensive courses, I'm going to put it out there.

I'm not a fan of intensive courses.

Okay, I'm going to put it out there.

Terry, you know, I know there are, you know, there are plenty of people who do zero to hero in five days.

Start on a Monday, take a test on a Friday.

Great.

What experience does that person have of real world driving?

Whereas if you extrapolate that out to minimum period of 6 months learning to drive and these modules you have to complete, the chances over that six months is you're going to get to drive in daylight, at nighttime, in countless different weather conditions, different road conditions, different traffic conditions.

You're going to be able to build an experience of so much more things that you're going to face when you pass the test if you, if you extend that learning period.

Okay.

And I think those that are paying for lessons got to look at that as a positive, not as a negative.

Yes.

And ultimately, yes, it's going to potentially cost, going to potentially cost more to get through your test.

Okay, that's a given.

But actually, surely whoever's paying for, whoever's paying for those lessons, be it a young person or a parent, a guardian, a grandparent, whoever it might be, surely they want that person to be as safe as possible when they come out the other end of that process.

Okay?

They do not want to be that pair person, that parent, that guardian who gets that knock on the door at 3 o' clock in the morning.

And I've made those knocks on the door at 3 o' clock in the morning because no amount of money is then going to bring that loved one back.

No amount of money.

So actually, let's invest up front.

So if we can invest up front, then there's a far greater chance that knock on the door will never happen because they've got the right attitude and behaviors when it comes to driving when they pass their test.

I just want to put my driving instructor hat on for a second and just come back on a couple of points.

As you mentioned, the intensive courses, I'm very much in line with what you said, but in terms of the experience, the other thing that they miss, it's not just the weather and the conditions, it's the number of times I'LL have a student come to me and say, I was in the car with my dad.

Not as a driver, as a passenger.

I was in the car with my friends.

I was on a bus and I saw this.

If you do all that over a week, you're missing that opportunity or over six months to a year, think about many times they're going to be a pedestrian or a passenger where they can see stuff and experience stuff and put stuff into context, which I think is, is huge.

And, and yeah, so I'm a big fan of, of, of the minimum learning period.

The, the drugs in the system thing.

I think a lot of instructors actually miss a trick here.

And, and this is just going off what I see on, on the, the cesspit.

That is, it's.

Someone will say someone's going my car smelling a weed.

And so many of the comments will be bin em, get rid of them.

Or I sacked them off because I'm like, well, all they're gonna do is keep smoking weed and go to another instructor.

Why not have a conversation?

Why not, you know, have the discussion?

And it's happened to me a few times and we have the conversation and, and I'm not saying that I can have the conversation suddenly that person's never gonna smoke weed again.

But what I can do is make them less likely to.

I can influence their decisions.

Yeah, well, and this is the whole point.

It's about influencing, influencing their behavior and their decisions.

You know, it's about drink driving.

It's about drink driving.

I enjoy drinking just as much as the next person.

You know, I enjoy a pint of beer.

I enjoy, you know, spice rum as well.

You know, I do enjoy the.

There are, you know, there are, you know, I enjoy a social drink, but I think about when I'm next getting beyond the wheel and I think to myself, right, when am I next get beyond or when do I need to drive again?

When am I expect to drive again?

Right?

I want to make sure that my system is completely clear of alcohol, completely clear about before I even think about getting back behind the wheel.

The same with drug, with same with drug driving.

For those that, you know, do enjoy a stiff of canvas at a weekend, actually, if you're going to be, if you're, you know, if you are, if you do indulge in the old bit of cannabis with your mates or when are you getting beyond the wheel again?

You know, do you, you need to make sure that that is completely clear of your system.

And the trouble is with drugs, they stay in your system.

A lot longer than alcohol does.

A lot longer.

So, so there's a whole cultural thing here around drugs, drug driving being as high risk as drink driving and that, that, you know, the current generation who seem to be more accepting of socially smoking cannabis, for example, and they're not really thinking about the impact of getting me up beyond the wheel.

If they can be, if they can, you know, if, if the culture can be changed that actually drug driving is as bad as drink driving, then maybe we can shift, you know, shift those, those figures to, you know, they're, they're, the figures are awful for drug driving at the moment.

I don't have them in front of me, but I was really in article recently about the, the levels of drug driving and it, it is, it is, it's not great, it is not great at all in this country.

And that is, you know, it's getting those young people to understand.

But like you say, if we can, if we can influence this current generation of drivers that are learning and starting their driving careers to do it the right way, actually they'll influence the next generation back.

So we make, we break a chain, we break the chain of that influence cycle by putting a cut in the chain, giving the next part of the next generation the right education at the right point in time delivered by the right people.

Driving instructors for me, that can then influence because they will become parents in time and they may well have children.

Well, actually, if they're doing it properly, that next generation coming up behind them is already going to have a head start.

So actually it then makes that job of teach them to drive all that bit easier in another decade to, you know, 10, 15 years time.

But we've got to, we've got to make that break and use the right people giving the right information at the right moment in time.

That for me is the key.

You know, almost going back to what I said earlier about how do you choose which rules a break?

You know, there's a big difference between I can donate if you want, but there's a big difference between sitting in your garden or your bedroom smoking a joint and sitting in a car five miles away from Rome in a car park, smoking somewhere and then driving back home or going for a drive.

There's two different things going on.

There is how do you choose which rule to break?

And if to me, if someone is choosing to sit in their back garden smoking somewhere, that's fine.

It's your own business, do what you want.

That's up to law enforcement to deal with that.

Yeah, doing it in your car, in a car park, 10 minutes from my house.

No, no.

You're jeopardizing mine and my family's life.

You don't.

That's the decision you don't make.

And, and go back to my phone issue.

You sat outside at road, your handbrake on your own mobile.

I'm not going to interfere with someone there.

You're texting while you're driving, then that's a different matter.

That's, you know, how do you choose?

But, well, let's move on.

There's one more little bit of news I just wanted to.

It's kind of been out for a little bit, but it's worth just mentioning around Road Peace, the road safety charity closed the doors earlier this year.

Unfortunately, they've been around for a long time.

They've helped thousands of people who have lost loved ones in crashes and they've been there to support them.

They're recently out to.

Due to lack of funds, lack of money, lack of investment.

They had to pause, basically.

And, you know, I wanted to take a moment to thank everyone and praise everyone that's worked there and tremendous work they've done, but also take a moment to cite a.

Criticize the fact that there clearly isn't a fund in there, that there should be.

You know, and I'm, I'm anti charity and I donate to charities, but I'm someone that believes you shouldn't need charity.

It should.

Charity should be provided by a government that we pay towards.

That's maybe a different podcast, but this is clearly not funded like it should be.

It's an area that's not funded in a lot of ways.

Losing someone in a crash.

I've only found this out since coming into this area and talking to people that have had this happen.

Losing someone in a crash is often very different to losing someone another way.

You know, it's so sudden and so impactful and unexpected and horrific in injury and loss.

You know, it needs that support where others may not need quite the same support.

So, yeah, just wanted to mention roadpiece and give you an opportunity to say some words.

Ollie, no.

And Terry, I echo everything you say about those that have worked for RoadPeace over the years.

I've signposted countless people to RoadPeace over the years as well for support following losing a loved one on the roads.

An absolute travesty that they've had to close their doors.

That really is.

And, and, and again, you know, that whole funding question that, you know that.

Yes, it's a real shame that they have to, you know, you'd have to have the goodwill of others for these organizations to be able to continue to operate and that, yes, there should be, you know, there should be funding available for them to be able to do their outstanding work.

I'm just going to, I'm going to push back on you very, very slightly, Terry, on your, on your charity thing, your charity comment.

Only in as much as talking about things that government should be funding and support and services government should be funding that I don't disagree with.

The problem with that is that the minute that you get something that's government funded, you get it filled with bureaucracy, bureaucracy and red tape.

And then nothing happens, no progress is made, no good is done.

The beauty about something like Rave Piece is that when you're completely separate from government and you are run and operated by passionate individuals who want to do the right thing for the right people at the right time, you are not constrained by government red tape and bureaucracy.

And that's something that I have 30 years of and I used to sit and bang out on the desk almost on a daily basis when I thought about, you know, I can see, I can see the goal ahead of me, see the goal I need to kick this ball into.

The problem is you have now put 17 meetings, three project boards, 18 reports and three walls in my way.

Why can't you just let me kick the ball into the goal?

Because that's the ultimate aim.

Why do I have to jump through so many hoops to get there?

And that used to drive me insane when I used to look at, look at things that I wanted to try and achieve and look at thinking people.

People are putting red tape in the way for the sake of trying to justify their existence.

I can say that now.

Retired.

Well, I'm glad you pushed back on it.

In which case, I'm going to clarify slightly.

Charities shouldn't be needed.

Government should be able to provide that service in an efficient way without all the bureaucracy that you mentioned.

In an efficient way.

And therein lies the problem.

Yeah.

All right.

So I think initially this was intended to be about 20 minute recording and I think we've gone for about an hour and 20 so far.

So that's not bad.

Going for episode one.

We're gonna have some fun here, Ollie.

Sorry, Terry, we've got the wrong people together here.

Yes, I think we may have.

No, actually, I tell you, we've definitely got the right people here.

That's what you've got.

But do you want to just take a moment to.

Do you Know what?

I'm going to put you on the spot, Ollie.

Tell people why they should subscribe to this podcast.

Anyone still listening why they should hit subscribe or follow now, because I tell.

You, that's, that's really easy.

Because this, this podcast is going to, is, is going to break the rules, basically.

It's going to look at the issues that really matter by talking to the people within the industry, but not just within the driving structure industry, looking at the wider road safety world as well.

I know some of the people you've got lined up for this, and there are some great people lined up for this, Terry, and people that really, really know their stuff.

And actually, if you want to get involved in and engage with some really insightful debate and conversation, because it will end up as debate and conversation and looking at the topics, looking at these critical topics, picking apart these topics and actually understanding more about.

And for me, it's understanding whereabouts.

Anybody listening to this doesn't matter whether a driving instructor, professional parent, young driver.

It doesn't matter who's listening to it.

Understand where you sit in the process.

Where do you sit in the process?

And I think that this podcast will unpick an awful lot of that.

It'll work.

It'll get down to the weeds of it, basically.

So you can come away from a podcast like this and go, I know where I sit in the road safety strategy.

I know which part I have to play in the road safety strategy and how I can make me what.

What I can do as an individual to make the road safer for everyone, because we can all play our part.

Glad you asked me that.

I'm glad I asked you that because you said it a hell of a better than I would have done.

So I'll take that.

All right.

Do you want to take a moment to.

To tell people where they can find you if they want more?

Ollie.

Goodness, Ollie, Goodness.

I don't know about that.

So, yeah.

So, Ollie, from the Honest Truth Again, Road Safety Campaign, designed for driving instructors to be able to deliver meaningful, impactive road safety coaching as part, of course, of driver lessons, come along to www.thehonestt.co.uk and I'll tell you all about it.

Thank you, Terry.

Excellent.

And you can find me on the instructor podcast.

Just search for that wherever you listen to podcasts or if you want a bit more, you can find patreon.com forward/inventor.

Where you can find my instructor Performance Psychology membership.

But as Ollie said, make sure you click and subscribe because we've got some say fun stuff coming up.

I'm really looking forward, so I'm quite excited.

So, yeah.

Thank you for joining us on this first episode and thank you for, for collaborating with me on this, Ollie.

Taryn, you're absolutely.

You're so welcome.

I think it's a great, great.

It's a really good idea.

Really looking forward to it going forwards and you know, we're doing.

Tell you what, my final thought.

There you go.

Ollie's final thought.

We're doing our bit to road safety.

What are you doing?

That's what I mean, Tari.

That's to your listeners.

No, that's going to be the end of every episode, Ollie.

I like that.

That's how you need to finish every episode.

We're doing audit for road safety.

What are you doing?

And point at the camera like you did.

We're just going to clip it up and send it out.

Right, have a great day.