The conversation we engage in today revolves around the profound and often overlooked issue of immigration stress, a topic that bears significant weight in contemporary discourse. We are privileged to welcome Carrie, a licensed clinical social worker whose extensive expertise spans the spectrum of mental health, particularly in the context of immigration evaluations. Throughout our dialogue, we endeavor to illuminate the psychological ramifications that accompany the immigration process, including anxiety, depression, and complex PTSD that may arise from the threat of family separation or deportation. Our objective is not merely to discuss these challenges but to foster a deeper understanding and awareness of the mental health implications faced by individuals navigating such traumatic experiences. We aspire for this episode to serve as a beacon of support and clarity for those grappling with these issues, as well as a call to action for greater empathy and advocacy within our communities.

Takeaways:

• Immigration psychology is a developing field focused on mental health evaluations for immigrant populations.
• The psychological impact of immigration stress can lead to anxiety, depression, and PTSD symptoms in individuals.
• Children of immigrants face unique challenges, including fear of family separation and deportation, requiring supportive interventions.
• Therapists must be sensitive and trauma-informed when conducting evaluations, ensuring the client's psychological safety throughout the process.
• Structural trauma caused by government policies can create significant fear and distrust within immigrant communities.
• Integrating mindfulness practices such as meditation and yoga can significantly alleviate stress and anxiety for individuals dealing with immigration challenges.

The conversation delves into the intricate realm of immigration stress, a topic that is seldom addressed yet profoundly impacts countless individuals. The host, Shobhna, engages with Carrie, a licensed clinical social worker, who elucidates the nuances of immigration psychology, contrasting it with standard therapeutic practices. Carrie articulates that her work primarily revolves around conducting thorough mental health evaluations for clients entangled in immigration processes, a necessity that arises from the unique traumas these individuals experience. This evaluation not only encompasses their psychological history but also the myriad challenges they face due to the immigration system, which can exacerbate pre-existing mental health issues or introduce new ones altogether. Throughout the dialogue, the implications of potential family separation and the ensuing psychological toll are explored, emphasizing the spectrum of reactions among individuals based on their support systems and personal resilience. The conversation aims not only to shed light on these issues but also to foster understanding and compassion towards those navigating the tumultuous waters of immigration. Shobhna's hope is that the insights shared will provide clarity and support to listeners who may silently endure the burdens of immigration stress, encouraging a broader awareness of this critical issue.

In a more detailed exploration, the podcast provides an in-depth analysis of the psychological ramifications of living under the constant threat of deportation. Carrie describes the varied mental health effects that such stressors can impose, ranging from anxiety and depression to complex PTSD. The discussion further highlights the differing responses individuals may exhibit, greatly influenced by their personal histories and support networks. For instance, while some individuals may exhibit resilience through strong familial support, others may find themselves grappling with debilitating symptoms. The host and guest also tackle the impact of systemic policies that contribute to a climate of fear and mistrust within immigrant communities, noting how these policies can inadvertently lead to a self-imposed isolation from essential resources and support systems. The episode ultimately seeks to demystify the psychological landscape of immigration, providing listeners with a framework to understand the profound effects of immigration stress and the importance of mental health support tailored to this population's unique needs.

The episode culminates in a discussion about the therapeutic approaches employed when working with this vulnerable demographic. Carrie shares her practices in creating a safe and supportive environment for clients, emphasizing the importance of trauma-informed care. She details strategies for mitigating re-traumatization during evaluations, such as grounding techniques and fostering an atmosphere of trust and safety. Additionally, the conversation touches upon the role of community in supporting individuals facing immigration-related stress. The podcast advocates for active engagement and solidarity from communities, urging listeners to extend compassion and understanding towards immigrants. By fostering open dialogues and supportive networks, the episode posits that we can collectively contribute to alleviating the psychological burdens borne by immigrants, ultimately facilitating their journey towards healing and integration into society. The insights provided are not only relevant for mental health professionals but also for anyone seeking to understand and support those navigating the complexities of immigration stress.

Hello, viewers.

Welcome back to Busy Free Mind.

I'm your host, Shobhna.

Today we are joined by someone I'm truly excited to have on the show.

Carrie.

A licensed clinical social worker with deep experience across the mental health spectrum.

She holds a bachelor's in psychology, a master of social work, and specializes in mental health evaluations for immigration cases.

She brings a rare blend of compassion, practical insight, and professional depth.

And I know this conversation is going to be incredibly grounding and eye opening.

We are opening up a topic that is not talked about enough but affects so many people.

Immigration stress.

My hope is that this conversation brings clarity, support, and awareness to those silently dealing with it.

Hello, Kerry.

How are you today?

Hi, Shabana.

Nice to be with you.

Thank you for being here.

And please explain this topic.

What exactly is immigration psychology and how does it differ from state standard therapy?

Yeah, immigration work with the immigration population is fairly.

I mean, it's been done before in the past, of course, but it's a fairly developing field.

As we have more and more system changes and, you know, changes with the government, we have a lot of need and support for increasing services in this community.

So standard therapy is, you know, we're all kind of familiar with talk therapy, where you work through thoughts and emotions.

My work in the immigration community has more to do with evaluation and assessment.

So I take a full client history from birth until the time that their immigration case is up into present and really go into detail about the trauma that they have sustained both earlier in their life and family systems systems and then in their immigration case as well.

It's important for therapists to be involved in this work because the attorneys, the immigration attorneys will sometimes get kind of the big events in their life and know a little bit about, like, okay, I think this person suffered from depression 10 years ago or something like that.

But typically they're focused on all of the legal side of things and just getting kind of the basics of the client's life.

They have to make kind of a judgment call on whether it would be supportive of the case to kind of refer them to a mental health therapist to do one of these evaluations based on just kind of like seeing that the client may be symptomatic, that they may be struggling with something, or just knowing a bit more about their past history.

So that's kind of when I get the referral from an immigration attorney to do a thorough mental health assessment with the clients.

Right.

I have this doubt.

How would you find whether the people is in stress or not if they don't Explicitly show any symptoms.

You know, it depends on the individual.

So some people have.

It's just.

It's one of those combination of factors.

You know, some people have a great support system.

They have outlets for their social energy and their, you know, stress in exercise or a sport, or maybe they're very well connected to their community, in their church.

Other people, you know, have come from kind of a different upbringing or more social isolated or have a personality that's a little bit, you know, more to themselves.

And it's just a combination of factors, really, that determines who experiences stress and to what level it becomes toxic in their system.

So not everybody is the same.

Same.

Okay, so what is the mental health impact of the threat of family separation or deportation?

Mental health effects of.

Of the threat of family deportation or detention?

Again, it.

It would vary depending on the individual.

Like, I've seen some cases where the person has a really, you know, solid support system with the family, and they seem to have grown up with this kind of toughened up personality, or maybe that's just innate to them.

But they have systems in place of support where if their family member was deported or detained, it would be very stressful and they're likely to have some symptoms, but it wouldn't be to a point of detrimental where they may, you know, completely.

It may be just a family dysfunction all across the board, and they're at risk of, you know, suicidal feelings or something like that, or absolute crisis.

So others, it's very.

It really varies person to person, but we see a lot of anxiety and depression disorders and especially symptoms of ptsd.

So that's in.

And usually that's just.

It's like the event hasn't necessarily even occurred yet, but they're still having symptoms of PTSD about it occurring almost.

So it's very.

It can be overlapping a lot of these things, but we see, you know, nightmares, shaking, sweating, panic attacks.

You know, living in a feeling of uncertainty is very dysregulating to the system, and so it can result in all kinds of weird.

Um, you know, I've seen some OCD where someone feels like if they check a lock 100 times before they go out, that that makes them feel a little bit more safer in control of their life.

You know, so it's really.

We see it a spectrum of just depressive and anxiety and PTSD conditions with this work.

Okay, so how do you support us citizen children who live with the constant fear that their parents might be taken away?

That is.

That's very scary.

And I. I personally work with Adults at this point in time.

But it's like, you know, if you think about when you were a child, you know, when you were, you know, five or six years old, and, and something happens where your parent was, you know, pulled over by a police officer and, you know, given a traffic ticket or something, it's even, that can be traumatic to a child.

You know, they don't understand exactly what's going on and, and they're afraid something is going to happen to the parent.

Now just imagine that parent being yanked out of car, pepper sprayed, thrown to the ground in front of the child.

Like, this is, we don't even know the psychological effects of, of these kinds of things that are going on.

I think for children, something that makes them feel as safe and contained.

Going through this process is going to be important for parents and, or whoever takes that space.

Spot a caregiver, maybe an aunt, an uncle, grandmother with the child where they can have some sense of, you know, within their age range, understanding that if this happens, we have a little safety plan we can look at or go to.

You know, I would work with the parent or the caregiver to come up with a list of like, if this happens, if, if this actually happens, this is what we do.

So, so the child can understand like, you know, maybe on construction paper or something, they can hang in their, in their room and sort of go over like, you know, it's, it's not my fault.

You know, adults are working with mom and dad to get them back as soon as possible.

You know, steps that sort of the child can go through to feel like they're part of the process, but they're, they're.

It's being worked on and that there are other adults that are going to be taking care of them in the meantime.

Or, you know, like, if they see mom and dad are taken by the police, the caregiver into that list and say, okay, let's go over, you know, step number one is, you know, other adults and lawyers working are helping mom and dad to get home in the meantime.

Mom or dad just wants me to focus on me and keep eating and go to school and like, ask if I need to talk to a counselor or friend to kind of make me feel better in the meantime.

Like, as much safety and structure as you can instill is going to really, really help in that situation.

Yeah, beautifully said.

So how does the toxic stress look like in children?

Yeah, you see a lot of regressive behaviors, so bedwetting, nail biting, thumb sucking, outbursts, tantrums.

Again, I Haven't had any clients myself, but I'm a lot of my clients are much older, older than they have been here for 20 plus years.

They've had established careers and jobs and families and in the US and they, you know, sometimes will be taking care of grandchildren or something and that's their main support.

You know, they're the main support for the grandchildren and the grandchildren will be exhibiting some of these behaviors.

And it's important to give children, you know, information, but age appropriate information.

But you want to, you know, treat them as if they're in, in some sense little mini adults because children are so observant and perceptive and if you give them no information about what's happening, they're likely going to either blame themselves, oh, I did something wrong and this is what, why this is happening.

I was, you know, bad.

And now they've come for mom or dad and, or they're going to just be imagining worst case scenario.

So yeah, you want to give them some amount of information appropriate.

But you do see a lot of the regressive behaviors and then outbursts in school, disruptive behaviors because they have so much anxiety about it.

And energy.

Where's that energy supposed to go?

It's Right.

Can policies themselves become sources of trauma for individuals and communities?

Absolutely.

I mean, what's going on now?

It's a perfect example, right, because people are being physically injured and thrown out of cars and grabbed.

And any system of government or agency that injures or keeps people in intense fear is going to in some sense diminish or demolish public trust, you know, in authority figures.

So if, if this happens to someone that's undocumented and then later they need to go to a food bank or you know, the Salvation army to get some clothes or donations or something and there's a policeman standing outside or they're happy, you know, they're going to avoid maybe needed resources they would need.

They're going to avoid things that could really be helpful to them.

But they have so much fear based on these, you know, things that have happened and the government policies that are happening that they will potentially just avoid things that they need and avoid people and avoid resources.

And then the other, the other thing that is incredibly important is that, you know, structural trauma can be built into systems and then cause stigma for certain groups of people.

You know, so not only are they afraid, but they're feeling not valued in their communities.

They're not feeling supported, they're feeling targeted, they're feeling that they're not as good as other people, which is just absolutely ridiculous.

But we have to work to combat these types of, you know, terrible inequities in the system and discrimination against certain groups because bad ripples out, just like good ripples out, you know.

Yeah.

So how does this structural trauma caused by policies and systems differ from trauma caused by abuse or violence?

What is the difference between these two traumas?

Traumas caused by, by structural abuse as opposed to like personal trauma?

Yeah, some of it can be, some of it can be very similar.

The same.

It can cause, you know, like structural trauma or personal trauma can cause, you know, a host of different things depending on the type of, you know, abuse.

A lot of people have physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse.

It can cause you to shut down emotionally.

It can cause you to develop any range of depressive, depressive disorders, from major depressed depression to, you know, something like, well, PTSD again, a host of anxiety related disorders, agoraphobia.

And then structural trauma can also cause those things to develop too.

So it's, it's very similar and depends on the individual again, but both systematic trauma and personal trauma can definitely cause a range of, a range of disorders or mental health issues.

And interestingly, one of the, the things that, that I've been become really aware of in this area of work is that the amount of stress that goes into someone's childhood experiences, I'm now seeing the adults that have gone through a host of traumatic experiences in their native country in childhood.

So many times the stress takes years, 20, 30, 40 years to show up in the body physically.

But these, you know, a lot of the cases that I see have undergone terrible traumas in their home country, which is why they left.

Right.

And we want to be safe.

And their home country was unlivable, otherwise they would not have uprooted their entire family and tried to come to a safe place to work and raise their children.

So I, you know, there's an immense amount of trauma that has happened to these individuals in their home countries to even flee in the first place from robberies, you know, street crime, break ins in their home, you know, just terrible things that have, that they've endured.

And some even get, you know, intercepted by cartels and things like that trying to cross the border.

So once they get here, they've, you know, established they work hard to establish a good life and just enough to support their families.

And now these adults that injure that kind of stress as kids are hitting more stress with the immigration system and dealing with all that uncertainty and trying to get all the paperwork and doing all this, jumping through hoops and doing whatever they need to do.

But they're suffering from like heart disease and stroke and gosh, diabetes.

Major health conditions that have now manifested in their body from stress that was likely injured, high amounts of toxic stress as children.

So you see a lot of physical health ailments with this population just based on the stress manifesting over the years.

So shall we call this a long term psychological effects?

And apart from moving from one country to other country, the sheer movement itself could also add as a stress like traveling accustomed to the new country, new food, new culture, maybe that also adds some stress.

Right?

Absolutely.

Things, I mean, we just think about the things in our life, like when we have to move.

Yeah.

You know, just to a new apartment or a new state or something.

That's one of the biggest stresses up there on the scale of things people want to avoid in life, like just assimilating into the US and trying to, you know, find jobs and meet people.

You know, just kind of traveling.

Like you said, there's, there's a huge amount of stress and definitely psychological stress affects the physical.

And then a lot of these cases we're also seeing have something called complex PTSD on top of ptsd.

So which is just compounded.

So, you know, it's, it's like PTSD on steroids or something.

You get people with dissociative symptoms that it's not just spacing out, it's like losing track of who and where you are for a bit.

Becoming so disoriented and confused in the middle of your workday and still trying to hold a job.

You know, it's, it's symptoms.

Not just a, you know, bad dream occasionally and like waking up in a cold sweat, it's like full on, you know, feeling like you're in a different place.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So when conducting sensitive evaluations or therapy, what approaches are used to protect the client's psychological safety and prevent that re traumatization.

That's hard in the work that I do because in some sense it is re traumatizing to go through and tell someone about all of this.

And yet it's important to capture.

So I do these sessions virtually and it's important for me to capture the emotional reactions and the triggers that these people are experiencing so that I can include those in the report.

You know, clinician observed client breaking out into a sweat and shaking during this part.

You know, so it's, it is hard and there's not a way to avoid going through it again or Taking them through it to some extent.

However, we have some, you know, I took a special training before I started working with this population and it's.

We have some tools that we keep in our back pocket in case of a very negative, you know, anxious reaction where they're maybe hyperventilating or feeling like they might be having a panic attack or something like that.

We're trained to, you know, employ some grounding techniques and bring their energy back from way out here back into their body by, you know, sometimes I'll tell them to go get a piece of like an ice skill cube or a piece of sour candy.

So it brings your attention back into what you're tasting and observe, you know, touch three different things and describe them to me.

So it brings your senses back in.

And of course some deep, deep breathing, that's structured breathing has shown by research to really calm the nervous system if you're doing in for, out for.

And I can even have them close their eyes for a bit and guide them through imagery of a guided kind of visualization.

Visualization.

And we really use, I like to use themes around hope and strength and you know, assurance and trust in the process.

And if the client is spiritual, even do maybe do a little prayer with them or something like that to keep them very positive.

But essentially there's a whole kind of process I go through.

Those are kind of more, in extreme cases if someone has a very emotional reaction.

But I will start right out with the client first and foremost, making them feel very comfortable just by explaining my qualifications and the process of what we're going to do together and the expectation we'll kind of discuss.

We'll go through the intake forms and ask them if they have any questions.

But I want them to know that they are in control of the process.

So like I will say as much information detail as you can give me.

It's going to help me communicate that in an organized format to your attorney journey.

But you're under no obligation or pressure to tell me anything that makes you extremely uncomfortable.

Right.

And then there's creative ways of.

If there's something they want to tell me but they're embarrassed to say it, I will have them write it on a piece of paper and just show it to me, you know, and then say we don't have to discuss it.

I just need to jot down that you experience this.

So there's kind of ways to be sensitive and trauma informed approaches that really help calm and just, you know, make sure that they feel safe in the process because it's a difficult couple of days to so get through everything they've experienced.

Wonderful.

So when there is a language barrier and when you use a third party like an.

If, if an interpreter is necessary, what are all the best practices for ensuring confidentiality and accuracy during those sensitive disclosures?

It is occasionally I to work with an interpreter.

I use a list of certified state interpreters in Oregon.

So they are under the same laws of confidentiality in HIPAA as therapists.

So it's just very covered in that way of like I have them make sure the interpreter is included on the informed consent and the release of information.

Sorry, the release of information, not the inform.

And it's just the three of us in the confidential session.

And I work through a HIPAA compliant platform for therapists.

So it's taken care of the privacy there.

It's encrypted and, you know, I don't know all the tech behind it, but it's just the three of us on the session and we have all the paperwork signed.

And again, I will offer the client because they may be divulging some very personal and you know, sometimes a lot of shame is surrounding the sexual assault or whatever it is, the trauma that they've experienced.

I will offer them a choice of a male or female therapist to suit their comfort level.

I'll tell them a little bit about the interpreter ahead of time, you know, just a little bit about them and that they'll be joining us and just make sure everything is, you know, confidential.

They feel comfortable with the transition.

Right.

Do you find doing virtual sessions are more tough than in person?

Not for me.

Not.

Not necessarily.

I kind of like it because it's.

It's just so convenient.

Right.

People you don't have to, you know.

And this gives me ability to see.

Not anyone just in my immediate vicinity, but in all of.

I like it.

And clients seem to.

To like it as well.

I think.

I think Covid does that favor in terms of getting everyone more comfortable with virtual here.

Actually, a lot of immigration hearings are even happening virtually now from the courthouse.

Judges will ask witnesses to come in and testify virtually and stuff like that.

Right.

So how can therapists and communities help clients beyond surviving trauma to experiencing post traumatic growth and a deeper sense of belonging in their new home?

How can we support, you know, just, I would say get out there, get out in the community and be willing to talk to people that are different from you.

And if you see any kind of injustice happening or someone being targeted because of their ethnicity or culture, a tiny bit of Solidarity goes such a long way.

Just go over and stand by the person, ask them, are you okay?

You know, and just stand by them or get your phone out.

Do you think meditation, yoga or positive affirmation would help stress?

Absolutely.

Those, those in particular, those methods have been found to be very successful with depression, anxiety in particular.

So it's, it's a whole developing area of, of psychology called mindfulness practices.

So even things like acupuncture, you know, meditation.

There's some new energy therapies coming online, Reiki, which have been practiced by nurses and hospitals for a long time.

So those, those are very, very important to have people with anxiety, which is really predominantly what we see a lot of with immigration cases that would help greatly with symptoms.

So how long do we have to take the therapy?

You know, I started seeing a few, a few people for counseling, just counseling and not the assessment piece of it.

And they only need three or four sessions.

And it's more just like, oh, I need help kind of coming up with a what if plan or, you know, I need to, to figure out if my wife is deported back, like, what do I do, who do I go to?

You know, and we kind of gather resources for the person.

And then sometimes, you know, the person will have gone through something horrendous and just be trying to hold down their job and be suffering with all these symptoms from like a complex PTSD case or something.

And they will need much longer term therapy where they are really able to process and talk about, you know, instead of suppressing all that, they're able to tell someone and kind of walk through what they went through and find new ways of feeling safe in their day to day and functioning through the stress and things like that.

So it kind of depends on the person and their circumstances.

Beautiful.

Could you explain apart from immigration stress, what are all the other field that you're concentrating for for the clients besides immigration?

Yeah, evaluations and counseling?

Yeah, I'm, I'm starting to look into a little bit of doing, doing counseling with people that are interested in energy therapies like, like Reiki and doing different.

It's, it's an exciting time to be doing counseling because we are seeing a lot of new therapies and tools developed.

People are very open to, to exploring other cultures and exploring different methods and ways of doing things.

And so you're seeing tools like tarot, which is actually when I first entered the social work field, I think it was so associated with the occult and it was just like, oh, that's witchery or Something, you know, and it's many, many people use tarot as like, kind of.

They have different characters and on the cards and yeah, these can be linked to like, Carl Jung's archetypes and like, you know, being using strength in your personal spiritual journey.

And like, you know, it's really fun.

And there's a lot of people, a lot of different cultures that like to do this and feel have value in it.

So of course, you would only use it with clients that liked that particular tool.

But there's a lot of different trainings.

And there's a training coming up next year, actually, that's the clinical use of tarot and psychotherapy, you know, offers 18 continuing education units.

So it's just amazing.

Like, it's.

It's an exciting time to.

To be, you know, a therapist and to be doing new work with people.

At the same time, you have to be very culturally sensitive.

Right.

So I almost have to sort of separate those two because the immigration work is very specific and.

And a little bit, in my case can be mostly shorter term and kind of condensed services.

You're evaluating, you're getting a lot of details about the trauma.

You're, you know, compiling a report, you're giving it to the attorney to use in case that information is of help to the attorney in their case.

And then the other side is, if I start taking clients, I sometimes I can't combine the two because they may have.

They may be completely focused on, yeah, you know, what's going on into survival mode.

And then I may end up doing some clients with, you know, spiritual journeys and these new energy tools at some point in the future, because that's of interest to me.

Yeah.

How do you make the clients agree to those new type of therapy like Tarot or progressive analysis.

I'm not sure about the word regression analysis.

Psychedelic assisted therapy.

These are all evolving.

Right.

So how do you make the clients accept that this will work?

Or how do you find that this therapy would be perfect for this type of client?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think, you know, you're just gonna.

You get training on whatever modality it is that you're interested in or want to maybe incorporate into your practice.

So I took Reiki Level 1 and Level 2 years ago, so I would want to.

Before I even do that with clients, I would want to take advanced Reiki and they give you a certificate.

So then you would post that you've had training in that area on your website or.

Or have a link to where you could show the clients that you've received specialized training in whatever you choose.

Same thing with the Tarot.

Like if I do that training specifically on how to use tarot in a clinical setting with clients, then I would link to that training certificate that I received.

And we use Google Scholar now, you know too for research.

And there's quite a bit of people that have been using those, both of those tools, which is just my particular interest for a number of years now.

And it's, it's proving successful with certain clients.

The thing I think we have to be careful of is just that we're attracting, I'm attracting those kind of clients that are already in agreement with using those services and are interested in doing that and feels that it can, feel that it can supplement their life and like to work through problems in that way.

Right.

It would be against our ethical code to kind of convince someone to use that modality or to say like, oh, you should really try, you know, Tarot if they're not already familiar with it or if they bring it up.

So I would be advertising that I provide that and I would probably attract people that I have.

They have all kinds of like inspirational self reflection cards too that are, you know, like if you're focusing on self care, you know, and you draw a few cards and like, okay, how do these relate to your week?

Can you see incorporating this?

Next week?

Can you see incorporating this, you know, you'll draw something then even like focusing on the symbolism of what's in the card.

Like, oh, I see.

This is, you know, looks this way.

Right.

Do you see this?

Does this have any meaning to you?

That kind of thing it you.

And it's kind of like how when you go to a party or something and you have a card game that you like.

Yeah.

Conversation and makes you think, yeah, it's kind of like a tool that's sort.

Of like opening up.

Right, exactly.

And it's like the Rorschach, you know, the Rorschach ink blots, you know, the different cards and makers of cards.

Cards.

You can kind of play around with it in that way too and sort of tap into the unconscious and like what things are coming up when you see this image.

Like what is that?

Okay, where does that come from?

You know, let's go into that a little bit.

So it's very interesting.

This is my personal question.

If somebody who is more into science and data, how would you convince them with this new evolving techniques?

They'll be like, is there any data, is there any scientific research or proof for that?

Particular type of therapy.

How would you convince those type of people?

Because for.

For physical.

When it comes to diet, there are so many researchers, there are so many people who are posting their before and after dieting, exercising and stuff.

But when it comes to mental health, there is no way to show that.

Before I was like this, and now I am like this.

We cannot show any physical proof.

Right.

Proof.

But we can.

We can give assessments that show improvement in behaviors.

So the client, if, you know, if they come in with anxiety or depression, I will give them an assessment or a measure of.

Okay.

Before we started treatment, this is the behaviors.

This is, you know, you were showing severe depression on a scale of.

Of whatever.

And we're not eating at the time, we're losing weight, we're unable to sleep, or, you know, have these symptoms.

And then about halfway through, you know, maybe in two months, I'll give it a middle measure and then see if there's improvement.

And we can adjust the therapy from there, the treatment and the goals, and then at the end of treatment so we can show progress.

And you asked about someone that was very scientific.

They would probably not be a hard sell.

Yeah, but there is science to.

To mental health, and these energy therapies are not observable.

But what you can do is, you know, again, you measure the.

There's plenty of research that shows, for instance, Reiki has been.

Which is sort of like a healing hand.

It comes from a Japanese tradition originally.

And it's thought that it's like acupuncture, you know, is.

Is stimulates certain muscles to kind of release and relax.

And Reiki is thought to be working with the energy in the body system and to be able to remove blocks and use kind of colors to visualize and help.

To me, it's almost like in a form of accelerated prayer and just working with the person's, you know, vibe and, you know.

Yeah.

And at the very least, it's a meditative, relaxing, you know, they.

They just lay there and they get, you know, beautiful soothing music.

And, you know, sometimes things will come up during that time, you know, and tears will come out and, you know.

Yeah, definitely a safe space with which to release and relax at the very least.

But you do see, especially having started in being used predominantly in hospitals with nurses.

Thank you so much for sharing your insights today.

This conversation has been incredibly valuable to our listeners.

I hope you found this discussion on immigration stress helpful and that it gives you tools, awareness or hope for yourself or others going through similar experiences.

Thank you so much for tuning in to busy free mind.

And I'll see you next time.

Thank you.