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(E28) The perinatal mental health expert Dr Rosie Gilderthorp
Episode 28 • 14th October 2024 • Leaders with impact • Lee Griffith
00:00:00 00:53:46

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Why should leaders and organisations pay attention to the mental health of parents?

There are so many stereotypes still around pregnancy, birth, parenthood, which mask the real challenges your team members, your colleagues, your friends, or even you yourself could be experiencing. And to ignore it can be having a detrimental effect on individuals and organisations.

In today’s episode I’m chatting with Dr Rosie Gilderthorp, a perinatal mental health expert. We explore the different stages and unique experiences and challenges parents face, we discuss the changing face of the Board table and why they need to be paying attention to these issues and we share how leaders can adapt to empower others, role model and support others in their organisations.

And a small word of warning, we do talk about some of the traumas people can face. If anything comes up for you in this episode I’ve included some links to support in the shownotes.

Resources and helpful links

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

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If you enjoyed the episode please leave a review on Apple podcasts (or your app of choice) and let me know what you thought on LinkedIn or instagram.

I’ll be back with the next episode in two weeks so in the meantime remember to sign up to my newsletter to get notified of new episodes, guest appearances and further insights on how to lead with impact.

Transcripts

Lee Griffith:

Why should leaders and organizations pay attention

Lee Griffith:

to the mental health of parents? There are so many stereotypes

Lee Griffith:

still around pregnancy, birth, parenthood, which mask the real

Lee Griffith:

challenges your team members, your colleagues, your friends,

Lee Griffith:

or even you yourself could be experiencing and to ignore. It

Lee Griffith:

can be having a detrimental effect on individuals and

Lee Griffith:

organizations. I'm Lee Griffith, a former communications director

Lee Griffith:

who now coaches leaders to shrug off stereotypes and find their

Lee Griffith:

own way of leading with impact. On this podcast, I talk with

Lee Griffith:

real leaders about what shaped their approach. I chat with

Lee Griffith:

experts who challenge your thinking, and I share my own

Lee Griffith:

strategies for success. If you enjoy the podcast and want to

Lee Griffith:

shake things up with your own leadership development, then why

Lee Griffith:

not recommend me to work with your organization, visit

Lee Griffith:

sundayskies.com or drop an email to lwi@sundayskies.com In

Lee Griffith:

today's episode, I'm chatting with Dr Rosie guilderfort, a

Lee Griffith:

perinatal mental health expert. We explore the different stages

Lee Griffith:

and unique experiences and challenges parents face. We

Lee Griffith:

discuss the changing face of the board table and why they need to

Lee Griffith:

be paying attention to some of these issues, and we share how

Lee Griffith:

leaders can adapt to empower others, to role model and to

Lee Griffith:

support people in their organizations. And a small word

Lee Griffith:

of warning, we do talk about some of the traumas that people

Lee Griffith:

can face. If anything comes up for you in this episode, I've

Lee Griffith:

included some links for support in the show notes. I hope you

Lee Griffith:

enjoy this episode. So I'm delighted to welcome Dr Rosie

Lee Griffith:

guilderfort to the leaders with impact podcast. Thank you so

Lee Griffith:

much, Rosie for joining us today. I want to start with,

Lee Griffith:

you're a clinical psychologist by background, and you're

Lee Griffith:

helping parents with their mental health, just so that

Lee Griffith:

listeners get a bit of an understanding around what that

Lee Griffith:

actually means. Tell me a bit more about what you do,

Unknown:

right? Well, thank you for having me on. It's brilliant

Unknown:

to be able to come and talk about a topic which is so

Unknown:

important, but I feel doesn't necessarily get as much

Unknown:

attention as it deserves. And so yes, as you said, I'm a clinical

Unknown:

psychologist, and you know, for many years, I was working in the

Unknown:

prison service and in the NHS delivering mental health

Unknown:

services, so that looks like therapy, but also research

Unknown:

training as well. And you know, we do a really diverse range of

Unknown:

things, but all with the aim of supporting mental health. And my

Unknown:

passion is actually in the prevention. So I do do a lot of

Unknown:

work with people whose mental health is already struggling. So

Unknown:

that might be people that might get diagnoses like depression,

Unknown:

anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder, but what I really love

Unknown:

doing, and what I spend a lot of time doing with organizations,

Unknown:

is work that puts the building blocks of well being in place so

Unknown:

that we don't end up with those crisis situations. And the nice

Unknown:

thing about being a clinical psychologist is that our

Unknown:

training really equips us to, you know, work all parts of the

Unknown:

person's journey, and to think about society as a whole and how

Unknown:

we treat people and how we, you know, build our lives, rather

Unknown:

than just focusing on the kind of narrow treatment phase of a

Unknown:

mental health crisis,

Lee Griffith:

and your focus on particularly, I suppose, that

Lee Griffith:

kind of parent with mental health element, what's what led

Lee Griffith:

you to that is your focus of work? Well,

Unknown:

really, it was my own experience. So when I had my

Unknown:

first daughter about eight years ago now, I suffered with

Unknown:

hyperemesis gravidarum, which, for anybody that hasn't has the

Unknown:

pleasure, really, of not having heard of that. It's a form of

Unknown:

very severe sickness during pregnancy. So it's not the kind

Unknown:

of sickness where maybe you're sick once or twice during the

Unknown:

day, but you generally feel recovered and better afterwards.

Unknown:

It's kind of 24/7 nausea. Caitlin Dean, who is the, I

Unknown:

think, the chairperson for pregnancy sickness support,

Unknown:

which is a charity which is very helpful in this area. She

Unknown:

describes it as bone crushing, and that's I've never found a

Unknown:

better analogy for it. It is absolutely all consuming, and it

Unknown:

can last for the duration of your pregnancy, and it did for

Unknown:

me in that first one. So as you can imagine, with

Lee Griffith:

Sorry, go on. Carry on. Sorry. Well,

Unknown:

as you can imagine, with sickness like that, it

Unknown:

takes away everything from your life. I couldn't work, I

Unknown:

couldn't socialize, I couldn't even scroll on my phone. So I

Unknown:

couldn't keep in touch with people on WhatsApp either. So I

Unknown:

ended up complete. Be isolated in bed for long periods of time

Unknown:

when my life before had been all about exercise, outdoors,

Unknown:

travel. I loved my job. I was working in the NHS in central

Unknown:

London at the time, and suddenly I lost everything that gave me

Unknown:

meaning. On top of that, you've got a lot of relationship

Unknown:

strain, because the people around you don't know on earth

Unknown:

is going on. We don't talk about sickness like this in pregnancy.

Unknown:

We have a lot of media around you, know, being sick and then

Unknown:

putting your high heels on and going back into the office. And,

Unknown:

you know, I thought that was going to be me, and everybody

Unknown:

else thought that was going to be me, and when it wasn't, it's

Unknown:

really difficult for the people that love you to know what on

Unknown:

earth to do to support you. So as you can probably gather from

Unknown:

what I'm saying, all of that leads, inevitably, I believe,

Unknown:

completely inevitably, to mental health problems. So I found

Unknown:

myself really struggling with depression during that time, and

Unknown:

although I knew what was happening, I knew why it was

Unknown:

happening, I didn't access any support. No one suggested it to

Unknown:

me, and I was too unwell to seek that support myself. And so

Unknown:

when, lucky for me, I delivered my baby. I was perfectly fine.

Unknown:

After that, I bounced back almost immediately. And a lot of

Unknown:

women that suffer with severe sickness have that experience.

Unknown:

Some don't, but when you do, you just get this, oh my goodness.

Unknown:

What have I been through? Feeling and after that, really,

Unknown:

I was still quite traumatized by what I'd been through. I found

Unknown:

it very difficult to trust health professionals. I hadn't

Unknown:

been treated that well. The care hadn't been wonderful. You know,

Unknown:

there were still difficulties with relationships. You're

Unknown:

thinking, oh, you know, people weren't there for me in the way

Unknown:

that I would have liked. And even though, you know, I've got

Unknown:

a wonderful family, wonderful friends, and they tried it, it's

Unknown:

just a really weird experience for everybody. And so it has

Unknown:

long term impacts. And so really, as a professional, I

Unknown:

stepped back from that, and I thought, What on earth are we

Unknown:

doing if I as a clinical psychologist working in the NHS,

Unknown:

knowing the system very confident to push back if I

Unknown:

don't get what I need, if I couldn't get what I needed, what

Unknown:

hope have the other kind of first time mums who might not

Unknown:

even know what to call this experience, what hope have they

Unknown:

got? And so that was really the reason that when I went

Unknown:

independent, which was, you know, shortly after I had my

Unknown:

daughter, when I went into independent work, I knew that

Unknown:

was going to be my focus. And I've really spent my time not

Unknown:

just on severe sickness, but on severe sickness birth, birth

Unknown:

trauma, and the kind of pre and postnatal mental health

Unknown:

difficulties that people often experience around pregnancy and

Unknown:

the early years of parenting since then. So yeah, I guess

Unknown:

that's a long winded answer to your question. No,

Lee Griffith:

no, it's, it's an interesting one. I like I come

Lee Griffith:

to this conversation highly inexperienced, because I don't,

Lee Griffith:

I'm not a parent. I haven't, I haven't experienced that. And

Lee Griffith:

whilst I know people with children, obviously in my life,

Lee Griffith:

I don't, I can't fully know or understand what it must be like

Lee Griffith:

going through it, you know, when it's, and I say with like rabbit

Lee Griffith:

ears, when it's a normal pregnancy, far less when you've

Lee Griffith:

got the the added traumas that might come with a difficult

Lee Griffith:

birth, or some of the side effects of having sickness, etc.

Lee Griffith:

And I, and I reflect. And obviously this podcast, we were

Lee Griffith:

talking about showing up as leader and how you can lead in

Lee Griffith:

different ways, and my reflection in preparation for

Lee Griffith:

our conversation today was certainly when I worked in

Lee Griffith:

corporate, I think when I was surrounded with people who were

Lee Griffith:

going to be parents, male or female, I probably demonstrated

Lee Griffith:

quite a high level of separation between like that was their

Lee Griffith:

home, personal circumstance and how they showed up at work. I

Lee Griffith:

had no I didn't really other than the cursory kind of

Lee Griffith:

conversations you might have around cravings they might have,

Lee Griffith:

or how they're prepping the nursery, or whatever it might

Lee Griffith:

be, that which is fairly superficial, kind of

Lee Griffith:

conversations you might have around the water cooler. As it

Lee Griffith:

were, I don't remember ever having any significant

Lee Griffith:

conversations with people about the difficulties of pregnancy

Lee Griffith:

and the difficulties of parenthood, other than the jokes

Lee Griffith:

around sleep deprivation and all of that kind of stuff. So I'm

Lee Griffith:

interested in why organizations and leaders should be taking

Lee Griffith:

more of an interest in parental mental health as an issue, and

Lee Griffith:

why it's not just a. A solo person who might be experiencing

Lee Griffith:

it for them to tackle alone. Sorry, that

Unknown:

was a really interesting but it is really

Unknown:

interesting because in our culture, we still do carry a

Unknown:

loss of stigma around talking about the difficulties of

Unknown:

pregnancy, birth and parenthood. And I think that exists for lots

Unknown:

of reasons. I think, you know, partly it's because we idealize

Unknown:

motherhood. Still, there are these kind of archetypes that

Unknown:

people talk about, and there's this, you know, idea of this

Unknown:

perfect woman who is able to, you know, absorb everybody

Unknown:

else's difficult feelings while remaining completely serene,

Unknown:

that kind of Swan. And you know that that person is embedded

Unknown:

into our unconscious. And if we admit that maybe we're not

Unknown:

feeling particularly Swan like and we're really struggling,

Unknown:

then we're sort of saying, Oh yeah, I'm not that person, and

Unknown:

therefore I must be this complete train wreck. And that's

Unknown:

it's a really unhelpful trope that we have infused through our

Unknown:

media for as long as any of us can remember for sure. And

Unknown:

although women have taken a much more prolific role in the

Unknown:

workplace. We've got women at every level of most

Unknown:

organizations now, we have not dropped these tropes. So for a

Unknown:

woman to admit that she's struggling, she has to align

Unknown:

herself with something she may not feel comfortable with at

Unknown:

all, and it might feel like those options are narrow, and I

Unknown:

think that's why we're uncomfortable bringing up those

Unknown:

conversations, because in your mind, you're thinking, Well, I

Unknown:

don't want to imply that I think that you're not coping, or that

Unknown:

you know you're not a good mother, or that you know

Unknown:

anything else unhelpful. You might think that you're

Unknown:

complaining. You know, that kind of career B trope is also coming

Unknown:

into my mind, and so it feels like a bit of a minefield,

Unknown:

because we don't have a very integrated and thoughtful

Unknown:

definition of good enough mothering. We just have these

Unknown:

very kind of black and white ideas of what good and bad look

Unknown:

like. So I think that makes it feel to anybody, especially

Unknown:

somebody I imagine, that doesn't have children. I remember before

Unknown:

I had children, it felt like, Oh, God, I'm just going to be

Unknown:

offensive here. If I say anything about, you know, you

Unknown:

know, you look like you're struggling, so I think that's a

Unknown:

big reason that people don't want to bring it up. And also

Unknown:

the fact that, as somebody receiving that feedback, you

Unknown:

might have a very defensive reaction to it, it might feel

Unknown:

like criticism, because we're very prone at something I talk

Unknown:

about in all of my work in pregnancy and the early days of

Unknown:

parenting, we are very, very susceptible to self criticism.

Unknown:

And so somebody else saying something which could be

Unknown:

perceived potentially as critical can land with us very,

Unknown:

very badly. And so there's a bit of reality there that if we

Unknown:

don't know how to communicate it in the right way, with sort of

Unknown:

compassion and openness, then it can go a bit wrong. And I think

Unknown:

people sometimes have had that experience, and that's taught

Unknown:

them not to say it. But I'm

Lee Griffith:

assuming the approach, and we will cover this

Lee Griffith:

a bit later, but I'm assuming the approach is very similar to

Lee Griffith:

any conversation about someone's mental health, and the fact that

Lee Griffith:

we need to be more open about that in the workplace and as

Lee Griffith:

leaders, need to be more open to having vulnerable conversations

Lee Griffith:

about themselves and about others,

Unknown:

absolutely. But I think particularly for leaders,

Unknown:

something I really emphasize in my training is you have to take

Unknown:

the next step too. So opening up a conversation is is one thing,

Unknown:

and of course, it's great to destigmatize and help people

Unknown:

feel seen and understood. That is important, but you have to be

Unknown:

willing to do something about it. The number of times that you

Unknown:

know, people bring might bring up a really difficult

Unknown:

conversation, and they'd be like, right? I've told my boss

Unknown:

about it great, and nothing happens that's the most common

Unknown:

outcome, and then that person feels completely dismissed and

Unknown:

they're not going to bring anything up again. Why would

Unknown:

they? So it's sometimes about going that extra mile. You know,

Unknown:

if you don't know which policies exist in your organization that

Unknown:

might support that person, it's doing that extra digging to find

Unknown:

out if there isn't anything you might need to become the

Unknown:

advocate for that person. And I think often, if we're as a

Unknown:

leader, maybe in a bit of burnout ourselves, it's. It's

Unknown:

really difficult to take that on, and I don't want to ever

Unknown:

underestimate that. You know, I delivered line manager training

Unknown:

for a company recently, and the feedback that I got throughout

Unknown:

the presentation was, we're so busy, I don't know how we're

Unknown:

going to do this. And I was like, Well, this is the cultural

Unknown:

change problem. This is why it has to come from the very top.

Unknown:

And if you've got a wellbeing strategy, it's got to be infused

Unknown:

at every level, because this shouldn't be something that line

Unknown:

managers are expected to just bolt on to their day to day

Unknown:

work. If well being is important, if retention is

Unknown:

important, if productivity is important, then you've got to

Unknown:

give line managers tools to use to actually make a difference

Unknown:

for people who are struggling?

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, these

Unknown:

are terms

Lee Griffith:

that seem to be used as buzzwords in

Lee Griffith:

organizations, and are treated as add ons rather than actually,

Lee Griffith:

they're almost foundational things you need to be putting in

Lee Griffith:

place in organizations. Completely agree. Can we talk a

Lee Griffith:

little bit about what to be aware of? You mentioned a bit

Lee Griffith:

earlier in our conversation some of the things that you

Lee Griffith:

personally experienced and that you're the other people that you

Lee Griffith:

work with have experienced, but you say that you know you've

Lee Griffith:

you've cover the pregnancy period, but then there's that

Lee Griffith:

postnatal period, and then the early years, I suppose, period

Lee Griffith:

of parenthood, and they're, I'm assuming, very unique and very

Lee Griffith:

different in their experiences. So what are the particular

Lee Griffith:

challenges that you have come across that perhaps

Lee Griffith:

organizations need to be better aware of. Yeah,

Unknown:

it's interesting because, like you said, the

Unknown:

experience of trying to conceive and fertility journey,

Unknown:

pregnancy, birth, parenthood, they're so diverse, you know.

Unknown:

And I think that is something that people really need to be

Unknown:

aware of. Often, people might have their own personal

Unknown:

experiences, and they then project those onto the people in

Unknown:

their team. So if somebody has, you know, been pregnant and had

Unknown:

children, they basically assume that that is going to be a very

Unknown:

similar experience to the one that their team members

Unknown:

experiencing, when actually what would benefit us all the most is

Unknown:

to have a much more open mind to the fact that this could be

Unknown:

experienced entirely differently by different people. You know,

Unknown:

often thinking about right at the beginning. We don't usually

Unknown:

even know about it when somebody is on their fertility journey,

Unknown:

and yet those are some of the most challenging and traumatic

Unknown:

stories that I hear in my clinic room. You know, I've worked with

Unknown:

people that have been trying to conceive and going through

Unknown:

multiple IVF rounds for, you know, nearly a decade before

Unknown:

they get that positive pregnancy test, or before they get a

Unknown:

pregnancy that makes it past the first few weeks. So that person

Unknown:

has been experiencing multiple traumas, multiple miscarriages,

Unknown:

multiple dashed hopes, invasive, painful experiences, and they've

Unknown:

been doing all of that without even letting their line manager

Unknown:

know, usually, yeah, so they've been taking their annual leave

Unknown:

to go through what in any other situation would be invasive

Unknown:

surgical procedures where you would take time off sick,

Unknown:

they've been having their hormones messed with, and our

Unknown:

hormones are extremely powerful. I really dislike the

Unknown:

demonization, particularly female hormones. I think it's a

Unknown:

form of sexism, and it really winds me up, but it is true that

Unknown:

all of us as human beings have our emotional experience

Unknown:

modulated by our hormone levels. And when you're going through

Unknown:

something like IVF, for example, those hormone levels are being

Unknown:

literally deliberately messed with in ways that will certainly

Unknown:

affect your emotional experience, and again, that will

Unknown:

look really different for different people. But it's

Unknown:

recognizing that that person who maybe as a manager, has come to

Unknown:

you and said, you know, now I'm pregnant, I've been through IVF,

Unknown:

they have been on a roller coaster, often for years, while

Unknown:

experiencing a lot of pain, a loss of really traumatic and

Unknown:

invasive experiences. So it's just recognition of that. And

Unknown:

we, I don't want anybody to try and predict, oh, this means that

Unknown:

they will need x, y and z, but what we can predict is that

Unknown:

they're going to need a conversation to be opened up.

Unknown:

And perhaps if we as leaders are able to say that, I know that

Unknown:

can be a really challenging experience, how was it for you?

Unknown:

Something open, then they might feel able to say, actually, it

Unknown:

has been really tough, and I think it'll be good for me to

Unknown:

access the counselor, or whatever you've got. Available

Unknown:

if you don't ask, they might feel too inhibited to let you

Unknown:

know, or they might not even be able to find the words for it,

Unknown:

because who's got words for a journey like that? And so I

Unknown:

guess, you know, that's the sort of fertility side of things.

Unknown:

Then pregnancy, you know, again, it's a really varied experience,

Unknown:

just because you know you or your sister or your best friend

Unknown:

found particular things helpful in pregnancy, particular things

Unknown:

easy and particular things difficult, we can't assume that

Unknown:

that's going to be the same. There are so many physical

Unknown:

health things that can be challenging in pregnancy. I

Unknown:

mean, I literally was the least happy pregnant person. So I had

Unknown:

all the sickness, I had all the pain. When somebody tells me

Unknown:

they're pregnant, I actually struggle to congratulate them,

Unknown:

because my mind goes so much to Oh my god. How can I help you,

Unknown:

which is also a bit inappropriate, because what we

Unknown:

actually need again is that completely open mind. We need to

Unknown:

be asking open questions. How are you feeling? What would be

Unknown:

useful for you? Is there anything going on that I can

Unknown:

support you with? So for example, if it was somebody who

Unknown:

was struggling with sickness, maybe it's not at that kind of

Unknown:

hospitalization level. Maybe they're still showing up for

Unknown:

work, but you know, they're struggling with it, then it

Unknown:

might be about offering extra flexibility. They might be

Unknown:

inhibited to ask for that. They might think they don't deserve

Unknown:

it until they get to the postnatal phase. They might be

Unknown:

worrying already about the strain that maternity leave is

Unknown:

going to put on the team, and all of those things I hear from

Unknown:

my clients, my therapy clients, stop them from asking for stuff

Unknown:

they actually know is available. So it might be you proactively

Unknown:

saying, Hey, would it be useful if you could do a bit of work

Unknown:

from home every afternoon so you don't have to be on the rush

Unknown:

hour train? You know, using your creativity, really, to offer up

Unknown:

some kind of open minded suggestions for things that

Unknown:

might be useful. And it just empowers that person to say, Oh

Unknown:

no, actually, I'm absolutely fine with that. Or, yeah, I do

Unknown:

need a bit of a bit of support. So again, it's really, it's

Unknown:

about not assuming and just opening up conversations around

Unknown:

how the pregnancy is. And I guess also something that comes

Unknown:

up a lot in the workplace context is not making an

Unknown:

assumption about when the baby will be born. So what can be

Unknown:

really difficult for people is in an organization where it's

Unknown:

expected that they'll work up to, say, 40 weeks, if that's the

Unknown:

norm, actually, a lot of babies come before 40 weeks. And so,

Unknown:

you know, having that kind of open conversation of, you know,

Unknown:

we don't know when the baby's going to arrive. This is a plan

Unknown:

that we can put into place whenever we feel that we need

Unknown:

to. You know, I discovered I was very lucky. I had a great

Unknown:

manager in my NHS role, and my first baby did come at 37 weeks.

Unknown:

And I actually hadn't known that you could activate your

Unknown:

maternity leave at any point, I think within eight weeks of the

Unknown:

due date. I can't remember the specifics of that, but that was

Unknown:

part of the policy, and I didn't know about it. And thankfully,

Unknown:

my manager was really on the ball. I think he could see that

Unknown:

things were maybe not, not going to last up to the fourth degree

Unknown:

period. So he mentioned that to me, and I hadn't known, so I

Unknown:

took it a bit earlier than I would have done otherwise. And I

Unknown:

think, you know, we've usually got, in most organizations that

Unknown:

I've worked with, there are actually a lot of policies

Unknown:

available. It's just sometimes managers don't know about them,

Unknown:

and usually the team members themselves don't know about

Unknown:

them. So it's often that thinking, Okay, what might be

Unknown:

useful for this person that they need to know about so you can

Unknown:

empower them to use what you've got. And so I guess, yeah,

Unknown:

that's pregnancy. And then around birth,

Unknown:

wow, birth, it's such a topic. I think the biggest mistake people

Unknown:

make often talking about birth is acting like the healthy baby

Unknown:

is the only important outcome from birth. Just remember to ask

Unknown:

how the human being is, how your colleague is doing. Because very

Unknown:

often, birth can be a very difficult experience, and it

Unknown:

might be depending on your relationship with that

Unknown:

colleague, they might not want to talk to you, particularly

Unknown:

about that, but just a little reminder that they matter and

Unknown:

that if they do need support, you're going to help them to

Unknown:

access it. That could mean the world to somebody. Because very

Unknown:

often, after very difficult birth experiences, my clients

Unknown:

tell me, all they hear is, Well, the baby's okay, so thank

Unknown:

goodness for that. And everybody just wants to move on from it,

Unknown:

when actually that makes it very difficult for them to put their

Unknown:

hand up and say, Actually, I think I really need to access.

Unknown:

Some support. I'm getting flashbacks, or I can't enjoy my

Unknown:

time with the baby, because all I can think about is how

Unknown:

difficult the birth was, and when I thought that both of us

Unknown:

might be in real danger, that's really common. It's much more

Unknown:

common than I want it to be. So just being open again to the

Unknown:

fact that that birth might still be quite present afterwards, and

Unknown:

they might need extra support around that subject as well, and

Unknown:

just not presupposing that it's all all right if the baby's All

Unknown:

right. I guess also, we do need to talk about the fact that for

Unknown:

some people, the baby's not all right, and that can be really

Unknown:

challenging in workplaces, I know how difficult it is to, for

Unknown:

colleagues, for managers, to, you know, talk to that person.

Unknown:

So, you know, often, if somebody has had a baby that is in the

Unknown:

neonatal intensive care unit or spent a lot of time there, then

Unknown:

they might feel like coming back after their maternity leave is

Unknown:

really difficult, because they might have missed a big chunk of

Unknown:

it in neonatal intensive care during that time, they weren't

Unknown:

getting the bonding experience they expected. They've they've

Unknown:

gone through a loss of loss because they didn't get the

Unknown:

early days with their baby that they were expecting. Maybe the

Unknown:

pregnancy ended much earlier than they were expecting. So

Unknown:

basically, they've gone through a lot of shock, and there's a

Unknown:

lot of sadness usually attached to that, and there will have

Unknown:

been traumatic experiences too. So often those people they you

Unknown:

know, if you've got a policy which allows them to take

Unknown:

additional leave, that can be really helpful for them, because

Unknown:

it gives them back some of that time that they've missed, and

Unknown:

maybe gives them some extra time where they can, you know, work

Unknown:

on their mental health, the perinatal mental health team

Unknown:

should hopefully be involved. They're not always, but if they

Unknown:

are, it gives them a bit of extra time to do that work as a

Unknown:

family, to develop that bond, which can be really, really

Unknown:

useful. But you know, when they are back in work, it's just

Unknown:

acknowledging that they're probably going to need more

Unknown:

flexibility. Very often, those babies have additional

Unknown:

difficulties that last beyond their stay in the NICU. And you

Unknown:

know, it might also be more difficult for that parent to

Unknown:

spend time away from that baby for practical reasons, but also

Unknown:

for psychological reasons. It might feel very, very difficult,

Unknown:

and it might remind them of those days where they had to go

Unknown:

home and leave their baby in the hospital. So there's lots of

Unknown:

reasons that the return to work can trigger really difficult

Unknown:

emotions for people whose babies have been in that intensive care

Unknown:

environment. And again, it is about if you know that that's

Unknown:

been somebody's experience, naming that and saying, I know

Unknown:

it can be really hard when you return to work. Is there

Unknown:

anything we can do that might make it easier? Here are all the

Unknown:

policies we have. Does it sound like any of those might be

Unknown:

useful to you right now? And then they've got that power.

Unknown:

They can say, Oh, actually, I'm fine. Or they can say, I'm

Unknown:

really not fine. Yes, let's use this. Let's use that. Can you

Unknown:

help me develop a plan that be useful? And I guess while we're

Unknown:

on that topic, we should mention at baby loss as well. And you

Unknown:

know, one thing I'm really happy to see is that many

Unknown:

organizations have a compassionate policy around

Unknown:

this, which allows people to take significant time off. And

Unknown:

that is extremely important, obviously, as with any

Unknown:

bereavement process. And again, I think it is about having that

Unknown:

courage to name the loss, and if you know the name of the baby,

Unknown:

not being afraid to say, I'm so sorry about what happened to

Unknown:

your baby. Would you like to see somebody to talk about it? Is

Unknown:

there anything I can do to support you? Because most

Unknown:

people, when they return to work, find that there's a wall

Unknown:

of silence and that people just can't bear to talk about it, and

Unknown:

they understand that that's because it brings up such

Unknown:

difficult feelings for everybody in the room, but it means that

Unknown:

they feel like they don't want to make their boss sad by

Unknown:

mentioning it, when actually they don't know how to access

Unknown:

maybe the EAP program, or Maybe they know that there's something

Unknown:

that would be useful for them, but they just don't feel able to

Unknown:

bring it to anybody, because literally, everybody is acting

Unknown:

like nothing's happened. So I think you know, as a leader,

Unknown:

showing your team it's okay to mention this, you're not going

Unknown:

to make it worse. It's the worst it could be. How could it

Unknown:

possibly be worse? So just knowing, asking an open

Unknown:

question, and naming what's happened, and using the baby's

Unknown:

name, those things are usually experienced as very supportive

Unknown:

by people that have been through that. Yeah, I guess the those

Unknown:

are a range of things to be aware of. But there's so many

Unknown:

things to be aware of. We haven't even talked about the

Unknown:

parenting part yet.

Lee Griffith:

No, no. I mean, that's as you were talking I was

Lee Griffith:

thinking, well, then we've got the parenting part, the

Lee Griffith:

transition when that child goes to perhaps nursery and goes to

Lee Griffith:

school, and we change with that. What if you're an adoptive

Lee Griffith:

parent or or you're a carer, or, you know, perhaps it's a

Lee Griffith:

different family situation, that you've suddenly got children in

Lee Griffith:

your life in some way. And the other thing I wanted to touch on

Lee Griffith:

was the male perspective in this and people who perhaps a

Lee Griffith:

father's and I think they're often overlooked in in

Lee Griffith:

conversations around this. Obviously, because the woman or

Lee Griffith:

the person that is going through the experience of pregnancy and

Lee Griffith:

birth, it will be having a very different experience to their

Lee Griffith:

partner, but it must be, I mean, you must see challenges from a

Lee Griffith:

mental health perspective. For male can't think of what they're

Lee Griffith:

word with the male counterpart in this situation,

Unknown:

yeah, no, absolutely. And I do think it does get

Unknown:

overlooked, but there's significant evidence. So

Unknown:

shockingly, 60% of parents struggle with their mental

Unknown:

health at some stage. Wow. And for fathers, we know that

Unknown:

there's a really big relationship between the mental

Unknown:

health of the mother and their mental health. So if a mother is

Unknown:

going through something really difficult, of course, it makes

Unknown:

sense that the father in that situation is likely to feel a

Unknown:

lot of stress, a lot of pressure, like they want to

Unknown:

help, but they don't know how to help. They may not realistically

Unknown:

be able to help, and that isn't a feeling that anybody is

Unknown:

comfortable with. The other thing that we know really

Unknown:

impacts on the mental health of fathers is conflict between

Unknown:

their role at work and their role at home, and feeling like

Unknown:

they can't do both things well, and that's really difficult. And

Unknown:

obviously we see that in mothers as well, when they do when they

Unknown:

return to work, that role conflict is really challenging,

Unknown:

but for fathers, that typically begins a lot sooner. You know,

Unknown:

we're still in a culture where most men are back in the

Unknown:

workplace after their statutory paternity leave, which often

Unknown:

isn't very long. And so for them, it's like day one. They've

Unknown:

got this conflict of, okay, I've got to be in the office at my

Unknown:

normal time. I've got to do my normal length of day, but I also

Unknown:

want to help out with the baby that's crying all night, and I

Unknown:

feel like I'm not doing a good enough job if I'm not hands on.

Unknown:

So, you know, I often talk about the kind of mother's double

Unknown:

shift. And I don't know if you've heard that before, but

Unknown:

it's basically the fact that women are now just expected to

Unknown:

do everything. We're expected to be climbing the career ladder at

Unknown:

the same time as, yeah, as being the kind of nurturer. But, you

Unknown:

know, there's some reality in that for men as well, in that we

Unknown:

we do expect fathers now to be more hands on, but they haven't

Unknown:

given up anything in the workplace either. So they're

Unknown:

also experiencing, I would argue, to a slightly lesser

Unknown:

degree, but they are also experiencing a lot of pressure.

Unknown:

And I do think it gets overlooked. And you know,

Unknown:

fathers that have witnessed a traumatic birth, I mean, my

Unknown:

goodness, if, if I, you know, was walking down the street and

Unknown:

somebody suffered an injury, which meant that they lost 50%

Unknown:

of their blood volume in front of me, I would expect to be

Unknown:

traumatized by that. Now this is happening to fathers, and that's

Unknown:

the person they love the most in the world, while their baby, who

Unknown:

they love more than they can even imagine, at that moment,

Unknown:

their life might literally be hanging in the balance. I mean,

Unknown:

my goodness. And then they go to work two weeks later, and

Unknown:

everybody's slapping them on the back and being like, Hey, let's

Unknown:

go out for a beer to celebrate. I don't know how you wrap your

Unknown:

head around that, frankly. And so yes, fathers really do need

Unknown:

support during this period, and they rarely get it. They're also

Unknown:

less likely, I think, to feel able to speak up and ask for it.

Unknown:

And again, this makes me sad, because we know that

Unknown:

organizations have a lot of support in place. It is so rare

Unknown:

that I go into an organization and they have nothing. Usually

Unknown:

they're in a big corporate there'll be, you know,

Unknown:

counseling available. They'll usually be flexibility available

Unknown:

for fathers as well. But they don't access any of that because

Unknown:

they don't feel confident to say and everybody's so busy

Unknown:

congratulating them, they don't ask. So again, it's the same

Unknown:

advice, really. It's ask the open questions and recognize

Unknown:

that there's a lot of reasons that a father's mental health

Unknown:

might struggle, or, you know, not to just be too

Unknown:

heteronormative about it if you've got, you know, same sex.

Unknown:

Couples basically that the CO parent that didn't give birth,

Unknown:

let's look after them as well. They're really important. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

so you've said, you've said a couple of times

Lee Griffith:

about the the empowerment side, and I was reminded of a male

Lee Griffith:

chief executive that I worked with many years ago. One of the

Lee Griffith:

really refreshing things I saw was how he was a bit of a role

Lee Griffith:

model around being a father figure. And so he put boundaries

Lee Griffith:

in around, actually, no, I'm going to come in late a couple

Lee Griffith:

of mornings because I'm going to drop my kid off. And so I so I

Lee Griffith:

thought, as you were talking, that empowerment hand in hand

Lee Griffith:

with role modeling is probably really powerful combination.

Unknown:

Yes, yes. I mean, when we're talking about cultural

Unknown:

change, that kind of leading from the front, demonstrating

Unknown:

how you want those values to be demonstrated by your

Unknown:

subordinates is so important you're never going to things

Unknown:

like boundary setting. They come up in almost all organizational

Unknown:

work. And very frequently, the brief I'll be given is we want

Unknown:

people to finish work at 7pm for example, we want to impose a

Unknown:

hard stop and that they just won't listen to us, and now

Unknown:

they're all working online. There's nothing we can do poor

Unknown:

us. Basically, our employees just are going road. And

Unknown:

inevitably, you go in and you talk to people, you talk to line

Unknown:

managers, you talk to the teams, and they say the same thing, oh,

Unknown:

well, we can't clock off because so and so doesn't and they'll be

Unknown:

annoyed if I don't reply to their email. And if I speak to

Unknown:

that person, usually they'll say, I won't be annoyed if they

Unknown:

don't reply to my email. It's just me. I just love working

Unknown:

extremely long hours. It's like, yes, okay, but your behavior

Unknown:

communicates that that's what you expect, and until you change

Unknown:

that, nobody else here is going to change that, and it's just

Unknown:

the reality of workplace culture. So yeah, I think it

Unknown:

couldn't be more important to embody this stuff yourself. And

Unknown:

actually, you know, regardless of whether you're a parent or

Unknown:

not, an understanding of the building blocks of well being

Unknown:

and looking after your own mental well being means that

Unknown:

people are going to realize that this actually does matter to

Unknown:

you, and so they're not going to feel so embarrassed about coming

Unknown:

forward and saying, I need something to support my mental

Unknown:

well being, because even if it's different to what supports your

Unknown:

mental well being, they get that you really do care about it.

Unknown:

It's not just a box tick or lip service. And so one of the

Unknown:

things that I think it's really helpful, and I kind of wish that

Unknown:

all leaders knew about, is a model called the perma model,

Unknown:

and it's a model of well being that was developed by Seligman.

Unknown:

And really, you don't need to know a lot about, you know

Unknown:

specific perinatal mental health issues or mental health

Unknown:

difficulties in general, if you understand what constitutes a

Unknown:

good life and good mental well being, because that puts you in

Unknown:

a position where you can think, okay, I know that this person

Unknown:

has Been through X, Y and Z. How might that challenge their perma

Unknown:

well being? And then you can think creatively and flexibly

Unknown:

about All right, what could I What would I do to try and

Unknown:

support each element of perma for this person? So just to run

Unknown:

through it quickly, the P in perma stands for Positive

Unknown:

emotions. Basically, we need to know how to make ourselves feel

Unknown:

the positive things in life, like happiness, joy, excitement,

Unknown:

those kind of emotions. The E stands for engagement. We need

Unknown:

to have time in our weeks and in our days where we get into that

Unknown:

flow state. You know, when you feel like you're really

Unknown:

engrossed in what you're doing, and it's a bit of a stretch,

Unknown:

like a bit of a challenge, but it's doable, and so it really

Unknown:

kind of pulls you in, focuses your mind. We need that

Unknown:

experience as human beings. The R stands for relationships. We

Unknown:

have to feel like we're valued by other people in our

Unknown:

community, we have to feel that we're heard, understood and

Unknown:

valued, and obviously we spend a lot of time at work, so that

Unknown:

very much includes our relationships with our managers

Unknown:

and with our colleagues. The M stands for meaning. We need to

Unknown:

feel that what we're doing matters, and that might be, you

Unknown:

know, roles that we take at home, it's certainly roles that

Unknown:

we take at work. It might be roles in our community as well.

Unknown:

It might be spiritual, but we have to feel like our activity

Unknown:

in life matters more than just that kind of hedonistic pleasure

Unknown:

sensation. Do. And finally, the A stands for achievement, so we

Unknown:

need to feel like we're getting some sort of reward for the

Unknown:

things that we do that really helps with our motivation and

Unknown:

helps us to keep going. And this is because of the way that our

Unknown:

brains have evolved over time and also our social

Unknown:

expectations. So it's probably really apparent how some of the

Unknown:

experiences we've talked about today, of pregnancy, birth and

Unknown:

parenthood, can challenge those perma areas, but if you

Unknown:

understand them, you can apply it to anything that a colleague

Unknown:

might be going through. And I think it's a really useful

Unknown:

framework for leaders to use when they're thinking about well

Unknown:

being at a team level and well being at an individual level as

Unknown:

well.

Lee Griffith:

That's a really helpful model, as you say, for

Lee Griffith:

anyone to be paying attention to. And we'll make sure that we

Lee Griffith:

put that in the show notes if people want to kind of make a

Lee Griffith:

note of it so that they've got got that afterwards. And I'm

Lee Griffith:

conscious of our time, but I wanted to touch on perhaps the

Lee Griffith:

top tiers of an organization, that C suite, that board level.

Lee Griffith:

It's a sweeping generalization, but traditionally, they've been

Lee Griffith:

quite male, older, male, focused the makeup of a board, but we

Lee Griffith:

are slowly seeing that change, and there is more multi

Lee Griffith:

generational, multicultural I mean, we haven't even picked up

Lee Griffith:

the diversity element of and how that might be impacting mental

Lee Griffith:

health. That's probably a whole other episode we can't touch on

Lee Griffith:

that. You know, the face of the board is changing. And I'm

Lee Griffith:

assuming you know, decades ago, it was very rare to have someone

Lee Griffith:

as a first time parent in a board level position. But now I

Lee Griffith:

know I've worked with people who've had their first, second,

Lee Griffith:

third child and been in board level positions, and so it is

Lee Griffith:

happening more and more often. Women are giving birth later in

Lee Griffith:

life as well. That's probably having having an impact

Unknown:

as as well. But then you've got this challenge

Lee Griffith:

of the expectations at working at that

Lee Griffith:

senior level are really high, because this work in all hours,

Lee Griffith:

always needing to be on or being available, type of culture that

Lee Griffith:

still prevails in a lot of organizations. And so it can

Lee Griffith:

cause that challenge. I'm assuming around, do I need to

Lee Griffith:

step away from a high pressure job because I've now got

Lee Griffith:

children? Or am I being overlooked for opportunities

Lee Griffith:

because people think I'm gonna pop out. You know, I've had that

Lee Griffith:

I was, I've been asked that in interviews. You know, what your

Lee Griffith:

plans for children in in the past? I hope people don't ask

Lee Griffith:

that as a, wow, I

Unknown:

thought that was illegal.

Lee Griffith:

Um, there's a, this was, this was a, this was a

Lee Griffith:

long while ago. But, you know, people do even subtly, will ask

Lee Griffith:

those types of questions to probe, are you likely to be off

Lee Griffith:

on maternity leave or whatever? There's probably a whole new

Lee Griffith:

level of challenge that means a board can no longer just

Lee Griffith:

overlook or delegate this as a HR issue that gets dealt with

Lee Griffith:

because it's the rest of the organization that's impacted the

Lee Griffith:

board itself, and the shape of the board and the nature of the

Lee Griffith:

board and the types of challenges they might all come

Lee Griffith:

into the to the fore. And so I suppose my my question, that

Lee Griffith:

roundabout way of asking, is, how can leaders start to do that

Lee Griffith:

own challenge at board level and make sure they're getting the

Lee Griffith:

right support in or the role modeling that we've spoken

Lee Griffith:

about, or whatever it might be, you know? What? What? What more

Lee Griffith:

can organizations at that most senior level do to support

Lee Griffith:

people?

Unknown:

Yeah, well, I suppose that there's two things broadly

Unknown:

to look at. And firstly is, what is it that can be changed about

Unknown:

the role so often, you know, when I've looked maybe done a

Unknown:

cultural web or something with an organization, we can see that

Unknown:

there are certain practices at board level which actually

Unknown:

they're not really value adding. They are, you know, historical

Unknown:

and part of that traditionally, historically male culture, that

Unknown:

they don't necessarily need to be done that way. You know, for

Unknown:

example, probably more pre pandemic. But was the level of

Unknown:

travel required really required, or was it a nice to have that it

Unknown:

turned out covid proved didn't mean that less deals got done.

Unknown:

So it's about having a real honest look at what are we doing

Unknown:

and why are we doing it. Are we spending our time in the most

Unknown:

productive way, or actually, are there a lot of unproductive

Unknown:

meetings? Are. There ways that we could strip out some of the

Unknown:

presenteeism at this level, because it is there at every

Unknown:

level. And I know often people find that quite challenging, and

Unknown:

they're like, Oh no, you know, our our executive team is super

Unknown:

efficient. Well, actually, we're all humans, and humans are not

Unknown:

super efficient, usually. So there might be things. There

Unknown:

might be, you know, parts of the culture at board level which

Unknown:

could be shifted to make it a more inclusive place. And I

Unknown:

think we have to start there. We have to start looking at that

Unknown:

and stripping out the essential and the non essential, the value

Unknown:

adding and the non value adding, and making sure that we're not

Unknown:

excluding people from something based on practices which are not

Unknown:

even particularly useful to the organization. And so I would

Unknown:

look at that first, and then I think the person themselves that

Unknown:

is considering moving into that position or maintaining that

Unknown:

position alongside parenthood, this is where I think individual

Unknown:

coaching can be really useful, because understanding what your

Unknown:

values are and what you really want from your life, what you

Unknown:

feel is most important at this season of your life, will really

Unknown:

help guide that decision. So there's no black and white to

Unknown:

it. There is truth to the fact that there are some jobs which

Unknown:

are probably impossible to do if you are the primary carer for a

Unknown:

baby, probably, or a young child. You know, in my case, two

Unknown:

of my children have got additional needs, and I do have

Unknown:

to be realistic that there are roles that I would have loved to

Unknown:

have taken that I can't take. I need to work flexibly. That's

Unknown:

why I work in the way that I do now. And so it might be that you

Unknown:

look at your values and you look at a role and you think that

Unknown:

isn't going to fit, or it might be that you look at your values,

Unknown:

you look at the role, and you look at the support you have

Unknown:

around you, and think, actually, we can, we as a collective, can

Unknown:

make this work. And I've met many women at board level who

Unknown:

have got a partner who has stepped down in his role so that

Unknown:

he can step up his involvement. Yeah, that happens, and that can

Unknown:

support that woman to do that big job, and it may be that that

Unknown:

is what's right for the family, or it might be that that person

Unknown:

is able to pay for a lot of childcare support. It may be

Unknown:

that they're able to access a lot of support from other people

Unknown:

in in their support network. So it's really about taking that

Unknown:

very open minded stance and thinking, do I want to do this?

Unknown:

Is this is what? What is best from my perspective, for my

Unknown:

family, and if I'm going to do it, how am I going to make this

Unknown:

work? Because the worst thing for mental health is to just go

Unknown:

in blind and just hope that, if you you know, run fast enough or

Unknown:

work hard enough it's going to work. There's reality. If we

Unknown:

want to do a big job, we need big support. Can we get it? How

Unknown:

do we get it? Get it in place and don't feel bad about it? I

Unknown:

think, you know, I say don't feel bad. Guilt is part of

Unknown:

parenting. You know, we haven't talked about it much today, but

Unknown:

it, it underpins the life experience of everybody, from

Unknown:

the fertility journey right the way through, I believe, until

Unknown:

your children are adults, and beyond, guilt is just ever

Unknown:

present. And so the reality is that you know women doing big

Unknown:

jobs, or you know fathers as well. I'm sure it's just as

Unknown:

relevant. And people that identify as you know different

Unknown:

genders, you're going to feel guilt because you're doing

Unknown:

you're trying to do two very important things at once. But

Unknown:

that doesn't mean that it's the wrong thing to do. That's why we

Unknown:

need to connect with our values and be sure about why we're

Unknown:

doing what we're doing what we think is best for our families,

Unknown:

and then we move through the guilt in order to, you know,

Unknown:

live the life that we've decided is right for us and our

Unknown:

families. So, you know, that's obviously a very vague answer in

Unknown:

one way, but that's what I really want people to take from

Unknown:

this, that that decision is is your family decision, and

Unknown:

anything is okay, so long as you've thought it through and

Unknown:

you're not expecting yourself to be able to be The Stepford wife

Unknown:

at the same time, as you know, crushing it in the boardroom,

Unknown:

because you've got to get a lot of support in place, and you

Unknown:

deserve that. Every every parent, every person, deserves

Unknown:

to be well supported.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, I really, I really like the that notion of

Lee Griffith:

we. So regardless of the dynamic of your relationships, there is

Lee Griffith:

always a we, because there is always a way to find or seek

Lee Griffith:

support and that we would would then come into being. So I like

Lee Griffith:

that as a takeaway, if someone's listening to this and. They have

Lee Griffith:

recognized some of perhaps it's brought some awareness to some

Lee Griffith:

challenges they've been facing. Or maybe they've actually

Lee Griffith:

recognized this in a colleague or someone that they work with.

Unknown:

What can they do next? I think it always starts with an

Unknown:

open conversation. So if you've recognized something going on

Unknown:

for your colleague, then I would always say the best first step

Unknown:

to take is just say, Hey, how are you doing? I've noticed

Unknown:

this, and I thought it might be challenging for you right now

Unknown:

and see what they come back with, because then you can kind

Unknown:

of take the temperature and think, okay, is this that they

Unknown:

are having a difficult time and they want support and I can

Unknown:

signpost them, or is it that they don't really want to talk

Unknown:

to me about it, and maybe I could arrange a conversation

Unknown:

with somebody that they might feel more comfortable with? I

Unknown:

think you'll get a good sense then of what type of follow up

Unknown:

is is best if you're struggling yourself, and you know you want

Unknown:

some advice about where to go next, then I think it depends

Unknown:

really on what you're most comfortable with. You can come

Unknown:

over and visit my website. I've got lots of helpful resources on

Unknown:

there. I've got lots of blog posts that might help you, and

Unknown:

you can book in a free call with me as well, if that'd be

Unknown:

helpful. That's at know your mind consulting.com Also,

Unknown:

there's lots of charities out there, so if it's a particular

Unknown:

issue, say the pregnancy sickness. Pregnancy sickness

Unknown:

support are fantastic. There are, you know, lots of different

Unknown:

organizations out there to give you information. I think for a

Unknown:

lot of people, it's about that kind of coaching piece and

Unknown:

getting really clear on your values and what you want your

Unknown:

career to be doing for you right now and what's important to you

Unknown:

in your home life as well, and getting some fit between those

Unknown:

two. Because actually, we've got lots of evidence that parents

Unknown:

get more ambitious for their career after they have children.

Unknown:

It's a bit of a myth that your mindset changes and suddenly

Unknown:

your focus is all on the children. Actually, a lot of

Unknown:

parents feel a renewed drive and passion for what they were doing

Unknown:

at work before, because you were probably in your job because you

Unknown:

felt it was important. It's very rare that people just do their

Unknown:

jobs for money. Usually they're doing their job because they

Unknown:

think it matters in some way. And that gets stronger. And so

Unknown:

actually working in a coaching capacity to try and figure out,

Unknown:

you know, how do my values align? And now I've got this new

Unknown:

context, and maybe I need to meet my perma needs in a

Unknown:

different way, can be really, really useful. So yes, if, if

Unknown:

that feels relevant, then you can always book in a chat with

Unknown:

me. It's the same if you visit my website, and if you're

Unknown:

thinking about support for your team, you can book in a free

Unknown:

call to discuss that, or you can talk to me about individual

Unknown:

support as well.

Lee Griffith:

I mean, I always advocate for coaching as a way

Lee Griffith:

to work this stuff through. So completely agree with that.

Lee Griffith:

We'll add all your links to the show notes as well so people can

Lee Griffith:

find you easily and connect with you over there. Well, thank you

Lee Griffith:

so much for your time. I mean, we could have talked about this

Lee Griffith:

forever. There are so many things we haven't touched on,

Lee Griffith:

but I think you've certainly opened my eyes to a lot of

Lee Griffith:

challenges that I've definitely hadn't been that aware of when I

Lee Griffith:

was in corporate, so hopefully we've done the same to people

Lee Griffith:

who are listening. So thank you.

Unknown:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been a real

Unknown:

pleasure.

Lee Griffith:

If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review

Lee Griffith:

on Apple podcasts and let me know what you thought on

Lee Griffith:

LinkedIn. You can find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the

Lee Griffith:

next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime, sign up to

Lee Griffith:

my newsletter at Sundayskies.com for monthly insights on how else

Lee Griffith:

you can lead with impact until next time!

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