Shownotes
- The impact of loneliness on society and men
- The 'Hope' framework: help, kindness, presence
- Stories of small acts making a big difference
- The role of masculinity and emotional expression
- Strategies for organizational and personal connection
Transcripts
Hi, welcome to Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. I'm Mary, and this podcast takes you behind the scenes with the top leaders in financial services. In season two, we're focusing on the future of financial conversations, how trust, communication, and decision making are evolving, and what that means for the way we're engaging with money in work and in our lives. So whether you're in financial services, you're planning events, or simply navigating your own financial decisions, you're in the right place. Be sure and subscribe so you don't miss a conversation.
So today we're exploring something a little different, not a strategy for growing your business, but a framework for growing your connection to the people around you. To bring this to life, I am joined by the one and only Matt Halloran. Matt has spent decades helping financial professionals find their voice and build their authenticity. But the idea he's bringing to us today goes beyond business. It's about masculinity, connection, and the power for asking for help and offering it. Matt calls it hope.
Help one person every day. Let's get into it. Thanks, Matt, for joining us.
Matt Halloran (:Thanks for having me.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Okay, I'm really excited to take this in this new direction and I know you're gonna be fired at. So let's start. What is changing right now in the way people think about connection and asking for help that we need to be paying attention to?
Matt Halloran (:Well, I think everybody knows somebody who said that they're lonely. Right. I mean, there it's been all over the news. it's kind of been a philosophical underpinning to some societal structure for quite a while that that people feel more and more lonely. And that
That we we have to address it. And the only way to address it is connection, right? And one of the greatest ways that you can have real connection is by doing something nice for somebody else. And that that's I don't know if you remember this, but on the playground, right? You know, somebody's on the swing and you you push their kid on the swing and that kid became your best friend, right? You know, they're on and now this is dating.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Okay.
Matt Halloran (:Myself, because I don't even know if they have these anymore, is like Amerig arounds. You know, maybe you were the person who pushed the merigarounds and everybody wanted Matt to push the marig around. They became your friends. We seem to have forgotten that. and very specifically men, right? So men, their most of their social structure has to do with work or or their home life. They don't actively go out and try to make friends. And so I think.
This male loneliness ep epidemic, the overall loneliness epidemic, and the fact that everybody's at war with each other. Mary, this is entirely by design. In Machiavelli's The Prince, he basically said, Look, get everybody upset at each other and they don't have time to be upset at you. And so all of this can be solved by spreading a little magic joy and love in the world and just doing something kind. If every one of your listeners just chose one of the three things we're going to talk about today.
And did one of those every day, the world would improve dramatically.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Absolutely. And I feel like you're talking about the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about, but we've got to start talking about more of. what does loneliness look like in the runes that you speak to?
Matt Halloran (:A lot of just
It's like they're soulless gray people just moving through the world, right? They they don't have any direction, they don't have any connection. We from a it I it doesn't matter if you believe if we're evolutionary or tribal or whatever, we are community beings. We have to have community. That's how our species has been so successful. Whether you do that through
Sports, whether you do that through spirituality, whether you do organized religion, right? Getting people together. And it's funny to me, not funny, it's it's actually quite sad. Funny is the wrong word there, is when I am at conferences and I'm on a big stage in front of a bunch of people. Mary, I know exactly who in the room. You can just tell by their face. And they have this blank emptiness, disconnected sort of feel, or they have to have some sort of external stimulus all the time.
To continue to keep that dopamine going because they're not getting that connection. They're not getting that dopamine from the person who's sitting freaking right next to them. So that's really what it looks like. And all of you out there, conference organizers, you know, other people who who speak, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Mary, you know what I'm talking about. You and I have both been in rooms where we could have probably, well, that person's not very happy. You know, that person's lonely as hell. And we just know that.
Because it's just written all over their face.
Mary Bell Carlson (:So what feels different about right now compared to even a few years ago? What shifted?
Matt Halloran (:it's it's in the United States, it's it's it's everything's politics. Right. So so my grandmother said something to me when I was very, very young. She said, Matt, there's something called polite conversation. You talk about sex, you don't talk about money, you don't talk about religion, and you don't talk about politics, right? That's all we talk about. Right. And and we're wondering why most conversations seem so divisive, is because we have been conditioned, and we have been conditioned. This happened with
I mean, there's a lot of studies on this. And I'm not, I I don't want to come across as sounding like a weird conspiracy theory, but if you actually look at history, you can actually see that there were a couple of very big milestones that happened. You know, Ronald Reagan basically said that news doesn't have to be true anymore. In order for it for it to be news, now for some of you, you don't even know who Ronald Reagan is, right? But it wasn't that long ago that some dude did this, and now we look at all of the different things that are out there. So we are consistently bombarded with misinformation.
With information to make me not like you. Because again, you go back to the book that was written that every world leader has read Cole Machiavelli's The Prince. It specifically says, you keep your people poor, you keep your people sick, and you keep your people angry. You do those three things, you can control huge swaths of people. And that's where hope happens in the positive way. I don't care what side of the pit political spectrum you're on. I don't care what religion you're at you are, because here's the deal.
Every one of those, it's supposed to do something nice for somebody else, right? I was researching this new book that I'm working on, all about the the different spiritual forms and how they actually talk about works, going out, Mary. You know something about this, going out and talking about things and being helpful and kind to other people is a way to elevate yourself spiritually. We're like the lowest we've been spiritually in this country in my existence in 53 years.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I want to dig in to hope. What is hope? What does the framework look like? Tell us more about that.
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm.
Sure. So help is help help one person every day, right? So that's what hope stands for. and there's three kinds of hope that you can do. You can say something kind, you can do something kind, or you can be present for somebody who needs it. So the the the framework of hope, the the speech itself is a story-based speech. And these are all real life examples of things that have happened in my life that made a profound impact, not just on me, but the person who I was with.
And so let's okay saying something kind. This the story that I have, and by the way, you can watch the TED talk. So this has already been a 10X talk. it's a very truncated version of what I'm I'm offering through you guys now. But I I went into the Navy at 17, I got on my ship and found out very quickly that we were going to war in two weeks. And and so the the the chief bosun's mate, who was the guy who was my boss,
Basically said, you need to call your family, Matt. And so I did what any normal, logical human would do was I looked around and noticed that most of my shipmates were really scared. I was on a big ammunition replenishment ship, Mary, which basically meant I was on a big floating bomb. and if we had gotten hit by any explosive, or if we had a fire on the ship, we would blow up in like a two square mile radius, right? So you it was it was it was really scary.
So I did what any logical 17-year-old would do is I walked around and told everybody I love them every day. Because what I figured is if if we all died today, at least these people would know that some weird dude loved them for no other reason than just because I can. Because Mary, I believe if you hate somebody for no reason, I can freaking love you for no reason. And so that's the first part of hope. And what it the the whole idea is it didn't wasn't received.
Matt Halloran (:Wildly well. it by some people. And by the way, some people, I still have a core group of, so this has been long time ago. I still have a core group of five Navy friends. And I'm still the I Love You Guy. Like they're in if they need the I love you guy, they will message me and say, dude, hey, I need some love. And I'll shoot a video for them or whatever. I mean, it takes no time for me. And of course, you know, these are people I care deeply about. But just saying something kind, please thank, thank you, right?
have a wonderful day. Right. These these are it and again in polite conversation, you know, this is was the norm, right? And it wasn't like flippant, right? well, thank you. You know, I'm not saying do that. I'm saying, you know, making eye contact and saying thank you. What we were just at a restaurant, my wife and I were just at a restaurant, and we we had unbelievable service.
Right. And so not only do we tip well, because I think that's important, but but man, my wife was like, You're you're gonna say something, aren't you? I was like, Yes, I'm going to say something. And so so the the the waitress came by and I said, Look, I just have to thank you. You have made this experience fantastic for us. I mean, you know, everything you could have done to be a great server for us, you ticked every box, and I want to say thank you. She choked up.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Ho ho ho
Matt Halloran (:That that's 30 seconds of my life, Mary. And she didn't choke up because she was mad at me, or you know, the the it was like I needed that. I know you did. Right. So that's that's the first stage. And just so everybody knows, everybody needs it. Please, thank you. You don't have to go around, Mary, and telling people you love them. I still do that all the time. so that's the first part. Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Can I insert a little story right in there? I heard once a story of a man on a subway in New York City and the guy sits down, he's got three little kids are running all over the place, just being holy terrors. And the man is just distraught and his hands is in his hands and finally someone looks at him and says, Sir, can you control your children? And they turn to him, he look finally looks up and says, I'm so sorry. Their mother just died.
We just left the hospital where your mother died. And the whole point of that is you never know what someone else is going through. You have no clue. And so even if it's someone cutting you off in traffic, it's some there, I always like I've learned to retrain my brain instead of thinking, you're such a jerk, to really just say that person may have something critical happening in their life.
Whether it's it's true or not, it's just a better way to see life. And you start to see the glass half full rather than half empty.
Matt Halloran (:Well, and it shouldn't we be trying to help people ignite that once again, right? so many people are so hopeless right right now that they need hope. you know, I mean, I didn't just call it hope help one person every day for no apparent reason, right? It's because people really do need that hope. And and you have no idea. When I was a therapist, I remember.
what one of what in in school, that was one of the main lessons. So there were two big things about what you just said there, about the the subway story. the first one is you have no idea what happened to your client six seconds before they walk in the door. They could have had a terrible interaction in the lobby. You know, they could have burdened themselves with their curling iron. I mean, you know, there's a million things that could have happened, but you have to be aware of it too.
Because if I get caught off in traffic and I'm all pissed off and I'm grumpy and I'm sitting down with a client who maybe has anger management issues, boy, I'm bringing baggage in too. And so that's also a really good thing for us to check ourselves to really see where we're at.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Absolutely. And it's the energy you're bringing to that meeting. Okay, tell us number two.
Matt Halloran (:So number two is doing something kind. Now, the the story that I tell here is actually about giving somebody a hug. I have something called the the law of hugging, which is if somebody gives you a hug, you are not allowed to let go until that person lets go. we also know that if you hug somebody for 20 to 30 seconds, it actually releases substantial amount of endorphins in your body. it w healing, healing things that your body needs to get better.
But and this is just another example. And I'm I'm not saying that I'm a saint, because dear God, I am not. but I see this all the time. And so then I started picking it up. So we'll be leaving the grocery store. You know, I'll have my cart or whatever. And I put my stuff, you know, in in the back of our station wagon. And, you know, all of a sudden, you know, I will see somebody else taking their cart to the cart return. I'll go grab it. Right. Or or you see somebody who needs help.
You know, trying to go ahead and do this. Now, the interesting thing about all of hope is there is a permission component of it. Right. So, like if I'm gonna help a person with their groceries, I ask. And here's the best part. If they say no, I still asked. And it still made them hopefully feel that somebody out there gave gave a crap. Right. But again, holding the door for somebody. You know, I I can't tell you.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Mm-hmm.
Matt Halloran (:How many times I'll have people who are just they're they look at me like I'm like I'm crazy. I am a little crazy, right? We should be very clear about that. I am a total freaking hippie. My life's mission is to spread magic, joy, and love in the world. But it's just those little, it's just those little things that you can do, those little actions. Now, you can also do big actions. My son is a chip off of the old block. and he actually went downtown in Kalamazoo and held up a sign that said free hugs.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Ha ha ha.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Matt Halloran (15:01.271)
And you would not believe how many people wanted to hug. You would not believe how many people just started crying the minute he put his arms around them. Right? And so these are the sorts of things there there are there are massive continuums when it comes to hope. You can hold the door for somebody or you can hug strangers. And the goal of the speech is also so that people find their comfort level so that they will help one person every day.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Awesome. And then is there a third?
Matt Halloran (:Right. So that you can say something, you can do something, you can just be present. the being present thing is is is probably the most underrated one and one that very few people think about. So just as an example, being able to be somewhere and ask somebody the question, how are you doing? and then just shutting up, right?
In letting a person speak. And I mean, most people don't go for more than three or four minutes, right? Most people don't because they're, you know, well, they're impatient. We're all impatient. Two, they also realize they've been talking for a long time. And that's one of my favorite things is they get done with their, you know, how are you doing? Well, I, you know, you know, my my my my I just got left for the hospital. My wife just passed away. Could you imagine if you just sat down next to that dude?
And you don't have to say anything. You don't have to do anything. Just be physically in proximity with that person with their knowledge that you are there to just be there. That's the sort of stuff that I think you know, if you can do that at work, you you have a coworker that you know is struggling with something. Say, hey, do you want to go to lunch? And and your job is not to solve any problems. I'm being very, very clear here. Your
Your entire job with this third aspect of hope is to just be present, make eye contact, smile when it's appropriate, nod your head, engage with what I call engaged listening, right? You that's a really, really important component. And when you do that, well, first off, you're going to change the relationship entirely. And I want everybody to know too that this isn't entirely altruistic. This isn't entirely, I'm just doing these things.
Because it's great for other people. Listen, you really feel really good. Like I want you to know that, right? I when you hug somebody and you don't let go, guess what? It feels good for you too. When somebody smiles and says, I love you too, after you tell a random person on the street that you love them, it feels good. It is okay to feel good when you do these hopeful things for people. I don't want you to forget that. It's it is okay.
Matt Halloran (:For there to be benefit to you to benefit other people. And the more that you can lean into that, the world, again, it's just going to be a better place.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Hundred percent.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Well, and I've got a quick story that just happened yesterday that showed that you can kind of mess up on this. You don't have a perfect framework to fall in. So so I teach a fitness class and I get done and this a woman comes up to me in tears, just crying, and she looks at me and says, I had to put my dog down yesterday.
And just tears. Now, I will be honest. I am not a doctor person. I am not an animal person. I do not get connected to them. So I have no connection there, but I knew she was in deep pain. And I just looked at her and said, I am so sorry. And then she goes on, she told me about it. And I am empathetic. And as I'm listening to this, I I think
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm.
Mary Bell Carlson (:there's Linda over here who's really a dog lover. I think she would somebody to connect with, would really understand. And so after she had kind of processed some things, I said, Do you know my friend Linda? Let me walk you over. And she goes, I know Linda, but I want to be here right now. And it was a good experience for me going back to your being present. Is it she wasn't looking for connection with someone else in that moment? She just needed me to be there.
Matt Halloran (:Yeah.
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Dog lover, not dogover, it didn't matter. For some reason, I happened to be that person that she wanted to share this with. And so I spent another five or 10 minutes with her, just letting her talk about her dog, even though I was in a different space. It was just me being there. And she walked away from that experience. And so I felt like it was a good experience for me to realize okay, not everything needs a a happy ending or a connection. And it's sometimes just
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm.
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm.
Matt Halloran (:Yeah.
Mary Bell Carlson (:being with the pain. And I actually told her in that experience, I'm really glad you're here. I'm glad you came today. I'm glad you came to this class. I'm glad you're here. And I'm glad that you feel that pain. Like I'm glad that you connected that much with your dog and that you cared that much. And that was it. Right. And so I think for those of us that want to fix things, it's sometimes hard to sit with it.
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Matt Halloran (:Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Matt Halloran (:Mm-hmm.
Mary Bell Carlson (:And be present because we just want everything to work out and be happy. And yet sometimes to your point, it's just be present. Just be there.
Matt Halloran (:Well, the the first story that I tell about, you know, saying I love you to everybody on my ship. I mean, the the I ran into this guy. His name was Johnson, right? And Johnson, he roasted me every day. Like I because I would find him every day. It just ended up being a game between he and I. he was a big dude. Like I'm not a big dude. He was a big dude. He was probably six two, six three, you know, big guy. I'm not that tall. and he would just light into me, Hey man, you know, hey Williams, I love you, man. Man, your mom. I mean, it was like a lot, right?
And I have a very colorful version of that story for adult audiences, and I have a not so colorful story for other audiences. But you know, it's just it's really funny because I mean I found out things about my personal hygiene, my appearance, a lot about my mom, right? And and the the funny thing is, it was it was it ended up being part of the game. At first, it was not. And I am my old my old mentor used to call it, you have something called persidity.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Ha ha ha.
Matt Halloran (:Persistence mixed with stupidity. And and and I I just I love being persistent. I I I love because here's the deal. Even though that that he didn't know it, when I told him that, his face changed. Right. And so I saw that. I've always been able to do that. it's a weird, probably trauma thing that I don't know, read people's faces quickly. But when he ended up getting discharged.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Ha ha ha.
Matt Halloran (:He asked, he's like, Why did you say that to me every day? Because he ended up getting a lot of trouble because he didn't just cuss me out, he cussed everybody out, which you can't do that in the military, right? and I said, He's like, Why did you say that to me every day? And I said, Because I do love you. And he just he was like, Okay. And he walked around, never seen the guy again, you know. But it was one of those things where I just I just sat there and thought to myself, he needed that.
Right. There are times that they don't. And I mean, it's so him roasting me is one thing. I might have other people who like threw stuff at me, you know, and of course I stopped. Right. I mean, it wasn't like I was Williams. That's his name was actually Williams. Williams was the guy who, you know, there was a glimmer there and he wanted to banter. And I love that stuff. There are other people who I said it once and they never I never said it to again. Nobody tried to punch me. Nobody, you know, I didn't go up and start, you know, doing this right to hug people.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Yeah, yeah.
Matt Halloran (:That's why the free hugs thing is just such an amazing exercise. If you really want to understand human humanity, hold up a sign in a public place that says free hugs. You will not believe because it won't just be hugs. It people will tell you things and being able to have hope inside your heart that you truly want to live a life of service and really help the world heal and be.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Halloran (:Just better. I think the hope framework, those three things are really easy to implement.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Absolutely. Okay, so when where do you see people, especially men, resisting this idea?
Matt Halloran (:they resist all of it, right, because it's not masculine. Right. And and I'm gonna challenge every single solitary male who's listening to this that first off, what whatever you have been taught is masculine is the absolute opposite of masculine, right? This whole idea of being, you know, unbelievably strong, you know, you know, distant, mostly grumpy all the time, being disrespectful, hiding any emotion.
That that is not what it means to be a man. Maybe that's being masculine, but it's not what it means to be a man. Real men are can in control of their own feelings. Real men love to help other people. Real men would rather be loving than have to protect. Because if you really try to figure out all of this male alpha crap, who are you protecting people from? People like you.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Yeah.
Matt Halloran (:Right. That's what you're you're afraid of you. And so you're the one. And until you really do your work on yourself, until you, as and I happen to be a guy who ticks a lot of the mail boxes, right? Entrepreneur, father of two, married for 30 years. You know, I got a big fluffy beard. I'm not a small guy, veteran, right? I mean, you just tick the boxes. I'm a blacksmith, I know how to weld, I can fix stuff, right?
But at the same time, if I also know that since I know myself, I my well is much, much deeper to be able to help. in fact, I think the more big and burly and manly you are, go hold up a sign that says free hugs and see how that changes your ideas of masculinity. Because a lot of the people who are gonna hug you are masculine.
I can't tell you how many times that's happened to me. So I I've got a I've got a hat that I wear. It's called Free Dad Hugs. And there's a lot of reason behind that. But I wear it when I'm in airports, right? Because I'm just I'm that guy. Right. And so it not I've had a couple of people take me up on it. And mostly they're kind of side hugs to like, I'm getting a hug from this weird guy, right? Which is fine, right? Just fine. But there had there was a time actually coming up the jetway, and one of the workers looks at my hat and his lip quivered. And I was like, okay.
I just hugged the dude, right? I mean, he said, Can I have a hug? And of course I gave him a hug. And now this hat is a lot like this. Very, very small. It says free dad hugs. You have to really look at it to see what it is.
Matt Halloran (:Men need this more than anybody else, in my opinion, because we have literally been consistently told, don't tell people how you feel. Well, I'm telling you to tell people you love them. Right? I I mean, I'm going against don't don't show any sort of affection. No, I'm telling you to hug people. Right. And then the last thing is, you know, do you remember growing up? And again, I'm older than most people probably listening to this, but
Men were helpful, right? Is somebody on the side of the road and their tire got flat, dude, I still do that. Right. Now I'm not the handiest person with cars, but I can still I can help protect you from traffic. There's all sorts of little things like that. That's what it used to mean to be a man. Not all of this modern masculinity crap. It just it makes my heart sad.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Absolutely. Absolutely. So Matt, talk to me. What audience would ideally this suit and what are they really going to walk away with? What are they going to walk out of this?
Matt Halloran (:So if your organization doesn't feel as connected as it once did or isn't as connected as you want it to, I'm your solution to that problem. Because you can implement, in fact, I have post work stuff. so after you hire me as a keynote, I actually have some exercises that you can take with you that I'll send to your event team that you in management can go ahead and implement. And it's basically just a hope framework that gives people ideas on.
We know I actually have a set of playing cards, Mary, that is 52 ways of hope, so that you can go ahead and just choose one. And the goal would be choose one every day. Start with leadership, right? Everybody, when you're in your morning huddle, what okay, today's a hope day. What are you gonna do to help one person every day? Well, you know, hey, you know, I I I got this card, right? That's absolutely fantastic. So if you're looking for an or if you're an organization that really wants deeper connectivity, that that's what it is.
And what I'm doing in this presentation is I'm doing something called anchoring. And so anchoring is a very, very powerful psychological tool where you equate an action with a specific emotion and a specific environment. And so each of the stories that I tell have all three of those things. in fact, they also incorporate a lot of the sensory experiences because it's really important for everybody to realize the minute that they smell fireworks, you're gonna have an emotional response.
Right. you know, the the the minute that you maybe you're you get a breeze off of the the water. Right. Or even if you feel a strong breeze, right? There's a story in there about the wind. Like there's all of these little nitty-bitty things that I am planning psychologically through things called neurolinguistic programming and the fact that I was a therapist in the past that are gonna make these things stick with your audience. And here's the best part: there's only three things.
Right. I'm not one of those people who say there's a list of ten things you can do. No, it's freaking three things. Just choose one. Help one person every day. Say something kind, do something kind, be present for somebody who needs it.
Mary Bell Carlson (:I love it. If you want to learn more about Matt and bringing help to your audience, visit financial behavior keynote.com forward slash Matt underscore Halloran to find everything you need. As we wrap up, there's one thing that I'd like you to leave with our audience. What's one thing they should do to carry into their next conversation? What would it be?
Matt Halloran (:I think it would be listen to listen, don't listen to respond.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Ooh, listen to listen. Don't listen to respond. Give us a little more.
Matt Halloran (:Yeah. I think a lot of people when you ask a question and somebody gives you an answer, your initial response is, well, I should respond and and help them solve that problem. Cause you know, how are you doing? Well, I'm not doing great. Okay, what can I do? Right. no, no, no. How are you doing? Hey, I'm not doing great. What's going on? Right. So there's a really, really big difference. And especially, you know, people in organizations or anybody who's in a relationship, right? What one are the favorite my favorite things I learned.
going through therapy school, as a because I was going to do couples therapy, which was a nightmare, by the way. because nobody goes to therapy thinking they're going to maintain their relationship. But anyway, asking your significant other, do you want me to listen to be supportive, or am I listening to help you solve a problem? That clarifying question could save your flippin' marriage and save a lot of relationships. So
I believe that there's there's something called engaged listening. There's seven different types of listening and five different types of communicators. We're not getting into that today, but the overall idea is very, very simple. Just be there. So that's the third aspect of hope. When you ask somebody, how are they doing? They answer the question. Let them fully answer the question by just listening to listen, not listening to respond.
Mary Bell Carlson (:Matt, you've got such a breadth and depth of information here that I feel like it's so usable and really can what you in what you say change your life. And it can change those around you. Thanks so much for coming on with us today.
Matt Halloran (:Thank you.
Mary Bell Carlson (:If there's one idea that you want to take into your next conversation, it's really listening to listen. If you're looking for a speaker who brings this kind of perspective to your audience, you can learn more and book Matt at financialbehavior keynote.com forward slash contact. Subscribe wherever you listen. Share this with someone who needs to hear it. That's what this show is for. Thanks for joining us on Financial Behavior Thought Leaders. We'll see you next time.
