Today we’re joined by Elissa Nadworny, an NPR correspondent, regularly reporting on international conflict, focusing on children and families. She has spent several months in Ukraine covering the war with Russia and most recently in Israel, covering the war with Hamas and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Elissa also guest hosts acclaimed radio shows, All Things Considered and Weekend Edition.

Today, we discuss how to lean into the vulnerable side of storytelling, navigating desensitization in media, and how technology has impacted her reporting on the ground. Elissa also shares insights on collaborating with unique creative partners and adapting to the fast-paced nature of modern content production. #storytelling #journalism #reporting

Guest Bio:

Elissa Nadworny is an NPR correspondent covering reproductive rights and abortion.

She also regularly reports on international conflict, with a special focus on children and families. She has spent several months in Ukraine covering the war with Russia and in Israel, covering the war with Hamas and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

She guest hosts NPR radio shows such as All Things Considered, Weekend Edition, and special election coverage.

In 2023, she tracked down a classroom of kindergarteners from eastern Ukraine, displaced by the war. The project took eight months, spanned multiple countries and continents, and told the story of children and families dealing with the trauma, loss, and fear that conflict brings.

Her work has won awards including a James Beard Award, an Edward R. Murrow Award for excellence in innovation, and several Gracie Awards.

She's a Livingston Award finalist for a story about college students getting their degrees from inside a state prison.

Other stories that have resonated with her include crawling in the sewers below a college campus to test wastewater for the coronavirus, sitting with the elderly living along the front lines in Ukraine's east, and the story of a pregnant woman in Gaza who gave birth amid abysmal and fast deteriorating hospital conditions.

In 2018, she went on an epic search for the history behind her own high school's classroom skeleton.

Before joining NPR in 2014, Nadworny worked at Bloomberg News, reporting from the White House.

Originally from Erie, Pa., Nadworny has a bachelor's degree in documentary film from Skidmore College and a master's degree in journalism from Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism.

Social Media

• Elissa Nadworny's Instagram
• Elissa Nadworny's Twitter

Additional Resources

• Elissa Nadworny's story about kindergartners in Kharkiv
• Elissa's story about mothers in Gaza
• Elissa Nadworny's Brief Stint newsletter on Substack
• NPR's Morning Edition
• All Things Considered
• Weekend Edition
• Sennheiser shotgun mic
• iRig

Related Reading

• https://www.rev.com/blog/transcription-blog/how-to-write-your-own-documentary-pitch-deck-to-secure-funding
• https://www.rev.com/blog/media-and-entertainment/intro-the-modern-journalists-guide-to-success
• https://www.rev.com/blog/media-and-entertainment/new-media-tools-journalism
• https://www.rev.com/blog/media-and-entertainment/new-york-times-journalists 

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- And I can use my mic and go live to like

14 million people on "Morning Edition"

from the side of the road,

crossing into Ukraine.

- Like I can feel the tears

whelping behind my eyes.

- That evening when we were in Kharkiv,

there was a large missile attack

and a kindergarten was hit.

- How you approach finding

these remarkably human stories

in the middle of complete chaos.

- And I think that's like

really worth acknowledging

and thinking about with

journalists, especially.

(upbeat music)

- I'm Kendall Kelton

and today I'm your host

on "The Rough Draft."

In this episode, I sit

down with Elissa Nadworny,

an NPR correspondent,

who frequently reports on

international conflict,

with a focus on children and families.

She has spent several months in Ukraine

covering the war with Russia,

and most recently in Israel

covering the war with Hamas

and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Elissa also guest hosts

acclaimed radio shows

such as "All Things Considered"

and "Weekend Edition."

Today we discuss how to lean

into the vulnerable side

of storytelling, navigating

desensitization in media,

and how technology has impacted

her reporting on the ground.

Elissa also shares

insights on collaborating

with unique creative partners

and adapting to the fast-paced nature

of modern content production.

All right, here's my

conversation with Elissa.

(upbeat music)

So Elissa, you have

spent quite a bit of time

these past few years covering

war and humanitarian efforts

on the ground in both Ukraine and Gaza.

And so many of your stories

are focused on those most vulnerable,

so families, children, mothers.

And I wanna start by discussing

how you approach finding

these remarkably human stories

in the middle of complete chaos.

And perhaps specifically

we can start with a story

that you published last spring

about two young kindergartners in Kharkiv.

How did you come across that story

and what motivated you to pursue it?

Which I understand took several months.

- Well, I'll start with where it happened.

So I was covering Ukraine

and the war with Russia

and I was doing news stories.

So they're quick turns, you're like,

this is happening today,

this is happening tomorrow.

you're doing, yeah, daily stories.

And with all the daily stories,

I'm trying to be in the

field as much as possible

because real people, the

news is happening to them.

So even if it's a quick news hit,

I'm still trying to spend as much time

with real people as possible.

So we were in Kharkiv,

we were actually there

for a different story.

The start of school was approaching,

so I knew that I was

gonna have to do something

on this beginning of school.

And that evening when we were in Kharkiv,

there was a large missile attack

and a kindergarten was hit.

And so the next morning we

went to basically the aftermath

where people were cleaning up,

there had been two teacher's aides

that were taking out the trash

and were badly hurt when artillery hit,

like damaging the kindergarten.

And so it was like a perfect illustration

of why schools in Ukraine

weren't starting in person

because this threat was very real,

and if there had been students there,

it could have been a much worse story.

So we went and we visited

with the head of school.

We saw the damage, we learned

about the teacher's aides

who were in the hospital

and turned that story around

pretty quickly to put

it on "Morning Edition."

- Ukraine's new school year begins today

in the middle of a war.

About a fourth of schools

will start in person,

the rest will attempt the year online.

NPR's Elissa Nadworny has the story

from a school in Kharkiv.

- Kindergarten number 323 sits among

a number of residential buildings

in the center of Kharkiv,

Ukraine's, second largest city,

close to the border with Russia.

Instead of students outside,

there are city workers cleaning the debris

left from Russian shelling.

And it was just scene of the school,

and the teacher had said

this one thing in that story.

As she walks us out of the school,

her eyes drift to a pink toy

truck poking out of the rubble.

She starts to tear up.

(speaking foreign language)

"It's not the damage to the

school that I'm mourning,"

she says, "It's the

destruction of childhood."

Elissa Nadworny, NPR

News, Kharkiv, Ukraine.

And that quote, I mean that stuck with me.

And the other thing that

really stuck with me was,

as we were walking through the school,

it was like the most beautiful

school I'd ever been in.

Like the walls were covered

with like pastel colors

and there's like art everywhere

from these like little

five and six year olds.

And it was like a time capsule.

So I'm a big details person.

- I can tell in your stories.

You do-

- I love details.

We can talk more about this.

- Yeah, yeah, I mean, but just real quick,

in that particular story,

which we'll link to

in the show notes, and I know

you're about to get into it,

the way you describe things

with such precise detail

on the color in particular,

really struck me.

So that's just a side note.

I noticed that, and I want

us to dig, get into it.

So apologies for

interrupting, but keep going.

- Well, no, that's how

people see the world, right?

Like when you look at your bedroom,

you notice little things.

I mean, that's how people

experience the world.

And so like as a journalist,

when I'm going to find stories,

I'm looking at the world that way.

So that's what I'm taking

down because that's like,

I think how we all relate to other people,

is like these little details.

So we're doing a news story

where maybe I don't

need that many details,

but I'm still like compartmentalizing

what I'm seeing in this kindergarten.

And one of the things right

at the entrance of the school

was the lunch menu that

was for February 24th,

which is of course, the morning

that Russia invaded Ukraine.

And so this lunch was never served,

students never went to school that day.

But I'm visiting eight months

after the war has begun

and that menu from February

is still hung up on the wall.

'cause it was like the last day

that there were ever kids there.

And like I even in telling you,

like, I get goosebumps

like thinking about that.

- Yeah.

- Just the way

that the world just

stopped for these families,

for these kids, for these teachers,

and I couldn't stop thinking about it.

So we left Kharkiv, I

moved on to the next story.

I think that at the time there was like,

the threat of a nuclear

plant was like coming offline

and there was so much

news happening in Ukraine.

So we just shifted our focus,

we moved on to the central city of Dnipro,

and we started doing reports from there.

And in my head I was just

like thinking about that menu

and thinking about those kids.

And I messaged my editor to say,

"I can't stop thinking

about this kindergarten.

Is there something more

I can do about it?"

And he was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."

As many editors who have

had to work with me know,

I have thousands of ideas,

not all of them need to be pursued.

But he was pretty encouraging.

And so I and my team,

'cause I work with of course

translators and interpreters

and I had a photographer

I was traveling with,

we went back to Kharkiv and we said,

"Let's find a class,

let's find out what happened to a class."

And then that began

this eight month journey

to eventually get to Daniel and Aurora

who were in the piece that you heard.

- Yeah, well and it's so interesting

and I'm glad you

mentioned the broader team

because I think a lot of people

either who aren't a journalist

or are at the beginning

of thinking about a career

in journalism, like a student perhaps,

they don't really realize

the amount of people

you are relying on, especially

in those situations.

So can you spend some time breaking down

what that life is like for

a reporter on the ground

during an international

conflict of this scale.

You're operating at a level of speed

while also trying to maintain accuracy,

while also trying to maintain

authenticity and vulnerability,

you're balancing a lot.

So would love to hear more

about the people you rely on

and what that day looks like for you.

- Yeah, so my team in Ukraine

consisted of a driver,

a security guy who was British military,

we call them like maybe a

fixer or a local journalist

or translator/interpreter,

they're like all in one.

The one that I work with most

frequently is named Hannah.

And she is amazing.

So she's Ukrainian, she's

from the city of Dnipro.

And so she's doing a lot of like talking

with people over Viber

or Telegram or WhatsApp

in Ukrainian and in Russian.

So she's like essential, I

cannot do my work without her.

She's such a wonderful creative partner.

And then Claire Harbage

was the photographer

who I was traveling with.

So a driver, security,

fixer, photographer, me.

So I'm the one that's

holding the microphone,

asking the questions, like figuring out,

like, I guess, team leader in a way.

But everybody has a very

important role to play

and we're very collaborative.

Okay, so the one thing I

wanna say about reporting

in Ukraine is just the

experience is like all consuming

because you're living the

story, you're in a war zone.

So you're also like going to the safe room

or the bunker when there

are missile attacks.

And then as soon as it's clear for you

to go talk to people whose homes were hit,

you're talking to them,

like you're living the whole story

in the same way that you're

reporting on it in many ways.

And I loved it.

- So how do you think that impacted you?

You just think like that rush

and that like living in it

just made your storytelling

just that much more powerful?

Because you weren't just like on a phone,

calling from DC from your home

and just chatting with

a translator over there,

like you are physically in it.

So you feel like that really

helped that storytelling piece?

- 100%, 100%, yes.

And also just from a creative perspective

of like not having any responsibilities

of your own life to just

like, I'm working 100%,

I'm living the story 100%.

I'm like mentally there, I'm

thinking about the story,

I'm writing in my notebook

in the back of the car

on the way somewhere.

Like from a creative perspective,

it was just like very rewarding

to just be with the work.

- I personally believe, maybe

you agree, maybe you don't,

that due to this like constant bombardment

of content and media,

especially when something

as extreme as war

is happening in the world

that unless you are in it,

it's easy to separate from it in a way

or get desensitized to it.

And so in your experience,

especially living on the ground,

how do you navigate that?

Like how does it impact your approach

and how do you spark more action,

especially for people back

in the US as an example?

- Okay, so my solution to this,

what I think about is I go back

to change, what has changed?

What stories haven't we heard?

What's different now than was

the way it was two months ago?

So I'm always looking for

change and difference,

'cause I think that helps pay attention

when we maybe haven't before.

And then I think details

and the similarities that cross culture.

So I mean, details play a big role here,

but I'm thinking of a story

that was in the Washington Post,

which I just loved by one

of my favorite journalists,

Lizzie Johnson,

she profiled a young teen in an area

that had been controlled

by Russia in Ukraine.

And she used her Strava app

and she would just run

every day, run, walk,

like her town is essentially deserted.

She's like one of the only teenagers left

and she's just like logging as

many miles on her Strava app.

And you're like, I know

Strava, like I log miles.

Like there's these details

that make us so relatable

to other people.

And I think that's one of the things

that I think a lot about

in terms of getting

desensitized to suffering

and overwhelm of a big story.

Details matter, individual stories matter.

I want to connect with

humans, not with ideas.

And then like what are the similarities

that just like we're all experiencing?

I felt like especially the

story about the moms in Gaza,

it what are the challenges

around like a diaper that fits?

Or like getting food?

Like what are daily live things

that people in the US

relate to regardless of

what's going on in their lives.

- Well I have a four year old son

and listening in particular

to the piece you did on Gaza

and those pregnant mothers and the camps.

And then like, I think the diaper was just

so many sizes too small.

And I was like, oh my gosh,

that like hit my heart so hard.

I mean like, if that's

the only thing you have

and the baby's uncomfortable

and the mom's doing everything she can,

I was just like, oof,

like I can feel the tears

whelping behind my eyes,

'cause I've been there,

but I've also had access

to fixing that somewhat quickly

and imagining not having those resources,

it just is a gut punch.

And I can only imagine that as a reporter,

like navigating that balance

between caring for the

individuals you cover,

that vulnerability,

and also achieving like

the story's objectives.

Like you're on the clock

and you're trying to express

what's happening in the world.

Like that has to be so tough,

that has to be draining.

- Yeah, it is really draining.

I mean I think like empathy and connection

like are my superpower, that's

what makes my stories good.

But I think it does have a personal cost

in holding everyone's story,

and holding people's sorrow

and their joy and just like

the emotional bandwidth

that I'm like capable of experiencing.

It has expanded, but it

does have its limits.

And I think that's like

really worth acknowledging

and thinking about with

journalists, especially.

I have a therapist who

helps me a lot process

like what all this means

and that it's okay to be

overwhelmed by emotion

on a daily basis.

- Like, literally, I can only imagine.

- But it's also wonderful like,

I don't wanna make it seem like,

so I like I couldn't do my job without it,

without that like swell

of love that I feel.

- Well no, and so that's

actually a great lead in

because I guess I'm wondering how,

understanding you have

a higher ed background

on your reporting,

what was it that attracted

you to those type of stories?

Was it just like this innate,

you've always had that empathetic feeling

or what attracted you to pursuing that?

- You know, it's funny because

I actually haven't done

a lot of deep reflection on this

because I think finding those people

comes so naturally to me.

Like, I'm a woman, I'm in my 30s,

I see friends around me having families.

I think it's just like, it's

not a cop out of an answer,

but I think it's just like

that's where kind of your

identity comes into play

and those are the stories I look for,

'cause those are the stories I care about.

- No, I don't think that's a

cop out at all to say that.

I think I was just like,

it it is just one of those, like you have,

people follow certain beats

and I've always been interested of like

what attracted you to pursuing

this and leaning into it.

- Well, I'll say that I started education

because education touches everything.

That was a beat when I was

coming up to be a journalist

where I was like, I love so many things,

I'm interested in so many different ideas,

housing and families and economics

and like all these things,

and it's like, oh well

they all touch education,

education is where it starts.

The basis of being an education reporter

and like thinking about

stories holistically

and like being human-centered,

like it almost doesn't

matter the topic now,

like that foundation in

like youth and families

I think is just gonna permeate everything.

- No, I think that's really beautiful

and it's a good reminder

that you don't have to like

fit into one particular box.

- And isn't it great for like

storytelling purposes too?

Like I wish people mixed up what they did.

Like I think it brings

such a great perspective

and like change, like change your medium,

change what you cover, change your topics.

Like the thing that's consistent is you

and like your creative ideas.

But change I think is so good

and we do not do it enough.

And we don't trust that

people can do it enough.

We're obsessed with this idea,

like, oh well you haven't already done it,

it's like, yeah, so what?

- And it feels scary and overwhelming,

but it's so interesting

because the way people absorb content

and just the way you tell

maybe one particular story.

I'll take the kindergartner

class for example,

if you to NPR's website,

if you were to listen to that story,

you will hear one thing on the audio,

but then if you read

everything underneath it,

it's slightly different.

So you're getting different perspectives

depending on if you're

reading or listening

or whatever it may be.

And there's just so much content out there

and so you have to

maintain that flexibility.

So have you like felt

that the last few years

because I think that's also run in tandem

with everything else that's

happening in the world.

- Yeah, oh, just this like proliferation

of like do it on every platform

and every medium, totally.

But the thing that's fun about that

is that there are people who

are really good at each one

and they have so much to offer you

in terms of like learning.

Like I'm thinking specifically

that digital story

of the Ukraine kindergartners.

I partnered with someone

at NPR named Connie,

who is like a mastermind of builds,

like interactive build-

- Oh yeah, the text, the

text, that was beautiful.

- This.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, so this was like a major part

of the reporting process,

which I never thought would

be like in the final product,

but it was basically a group chat

that all of these families

in the kindergarten

just kept in touch with each other,

and it documented, like in a

primary source document way,

what had happened to

them after the invasion.

And Connie built this amazing interactive,

you can basically watch

it unfold in real time

as they text each other online.

- It's a very beautiful

but also very dramatic way

to like hook people in.

I have to imagine when

you're thinking about

building these stories,

it is such a collaborative

and highly intensive creative process.

I'm wondering like what have you learned

that are like your go-tos

in these type of scenarios

where you're trying to?

- Yeah, like basically my

background is in documentary film,

so I'm like always thinking of like,

what is a different way

to imagine a documentary?

I think of my pieces on

NPR as documentaries-

- Oh, interesting.

- In their own like way.

So it's like, is there a

version of a documentary

that's told in just ways we

haven't really like explored

or thought of like,

again, first draft here.

- Yeah, no, but I'm here

for it, I'm here for it.

So given that background

in documentary film,

what are certain things that

you've been able to pull

from that bag of tricks,

from documentary filmmaking,

into what you've been able to do

both on the ground here in the US

but then also on these more

international surfaces?

- I think the biggest thing I pull

from my documentary

background is being there,

being there with people

when something is happening.

Like there's nothing better than seen,

whether you're rolling on a camera

or you're rolling with your microphone.

Like just trying to be there

when things are happening

is like the biggest takeaway I have.

I wanna make it so that they

feel comfortable to let me in

so that I get past that first layer

that they might tell a news reporter.

I wanna get a little bit

past that and be like

what they might tell a documentarian.

Even if I'm turning it for

tomorrow for "Morning Edition."

- Well, do you have any tactics

specifically that you use?

Either like phrases or words

or things to ease people

into being more comfortable?

- Well I think listening

is a huge part of the interview process

that we don't talk enough

about, like actually listening.

Like you have your questions

that you want answered,

but like, listening and responding I think

is the most essential part

of building that trust.

Just treating people like they're experts

I think has always been

like a really helpful piece of advice.

- And that translates

to all sorts of things.

- I think the other thing

that I've learned a lot

is kind of like building people

out to be three dimensional.

Often my favorite piece of tape in a story

is like not related to like

the thing the story is about,

it's just what I would call color,

it's like humanizing them,

it's like making them

feel three dimensional,

like they're a real person

and not just a talking head.

And that feels very much like

from my documentary past.

- So I wanna spend some

time just talking about

like your specific, creative process.

Like are there tips and

tricks or tools that you use

that you think would

be helpful for others?

- I'm thinking about what

I want the final product

to be from the beginning,

whether or not it ends up

like that, that's okay.

But like thinking in a big picture way

when you're actually like

doing the small scale work

I think has been really helpful.

So imagining like where

people might go in a story.

This is also true when

you're doing interviews,

when you're collecting tape or scene,

I always try and write down

the best pieces of tape,

the moments that made me laugh,

the moments that made me cry,

the moments I wanna call my mom about.

I try and write those down in a notebook

or record a voice memo

as soon as the interview

or the scene is over.

Fresh, fresh, fresh is always best.

The other really wonderful

thing I like to do

is just start writing in a notebook.

Like, especially when I'm

in that moment of like,

I've done a bunch of reporting

and I'm stuck on the

structure of the story.

I'll just go out in the

backyard or go to a park

or in the back of a car

on the way to Ukraine.

It doesn't matter where you are,

but just like pen and paper.

- So you're doing so much running around,

like you're trying to hit

so many different stories

on a deadline and you're traveling,

you're in and out of cars, I

mean, you have to pack light.

So how are you capturing these stories

in order to like get them

over to the news desk

and to get them published?

Like what do you rely on the most?

- Well this was actually

like the greatest thing

from going from the video

world to the radio world,

'cause the equipment

like gets cut down a lot.

So yeah, but like having

to lug like a tripod, nope.

Everything is super

light and it's wonderful.

Okay, so my best friend

in terms of equipment

is a microphone, which I can show you.

- There you go.

- I'm recording from it,

so it might just...

But this little guy,

Sennheiser shotgun mic

is my baby, I mean really

it's like with me all the time

and it's what mostly I record everything,

and it's super lightweight and

I have a small audio recorder

and headphones and that's all

I need to make radio magic.

- That's amazing.

- The wild thing is that there is,

there's like technology,

it's called an iRig,

which NPR started using

during the pandemic,

which plugs from our

microphone into the iPhone.

And honestly this changed the

game of live reporting for us

because I have used this, I

mean really all over the world.

And I can use my mic and go

live to like 14 million people

on "Morning Edition"

from the side of the road

crossing into Ukraine.

- That's amazing.

- Like on the border

between Poland and Ukraine.

And it fits in like a little satchel

and I'm connected all over America,

all over the world.

- That's incredible

to see how efficient

technology has gotten.

But does that also add

in pressure to like,

if you're able to do this

so efficiently, so quickly?

- I don't see it as pressure,

I don't see it as pressure.

I see it as like ease really.

Because I think the pressure

of still getting on the air fast was there

when you had to like unplug your Marantz,

get your cables, plug

it into your computer,

drag it to your desktop,

like I actually feel

like this is cutting out

the like anxiety moments

of trying to be fast to get it on the air.

- You've talked a few

times around just your team

and how collaboration

is key to storytelling

and I even noticed on X the other day

that you did a shout out to editors

just hearing you out on stories

and helping you navigate it.

So would love to know how you lean on

creative partners and how it

enhances your storytelling.

- Yeah, absolutely, I'm

so glad you asked that

because I mean, look,

we all like to talk about

the stuff we're working on,

but I actually think that's an essential

part of the creative process

and I lean on a lot of

the people that I respect

and value their opinions on

to help shape what things look like

and how I think about stories.

So these are official editors

that get paid to help me,

but also informal editors, friends.

I have like one of my

first friends growing up

in Erie, PA,

I like to think of her as my

first creative collaborator.

- I love that.

- We were in a play

when we were in sixth grade.

- Oh my gosh.

- She lives in

Northern Ireland, she's a playwright,

and we talk about creative

process all the time

and our mediums are so different

and the work we do is so different.

But like, woo, we are on the same page

about how to get this stuff

done and like the pitfalls.

- Do you think there's some,

but I know they're so different,

but do you think there's

some similarities though

at the same time?

- 100%, I mean, all the

things we've talked about,

details, character development,

the pacing of stories,

because all those elements

are still the same

regardless of if it's

fiction or nonfiction

or on the radio or in a play.

And it's really fun to like have,

there's no competition or anything,

like we're making totally different things

and yet our conversations

are just hours long

and are so productive and she

has such thoughtful things

to say from the stuff I'm making

and I love like giving her feedback

on stuff that she's making

and there's like no stakes

'cause we just trust

each other's brains.

- Yeah, no,

I think that's so interesting

because I think it's easy to get caught up

in like your own thing or your own field

or your own to-do list.

But breaking out of that

and getting a different

perspective or a different lens,

I think that's actually quite

a good tip to give people

is to trust the feedback of somebody

who may not be as in it as you.

- Well, and I've often

worked with one producer

at NPR a lot, her name is Lauren Migaki,

she wasn't always with me in

war zones, which is a bummer,

because she's the best and

her brain is incredible.

Like, she thinks about

stuff differently than I do.

So we get to have two brains

when we're working together

and like we know each other

so well that it's like, okay,

she knows I'm gonna write

the sentence like this.

So then when she's thinking about tape,

she's like, this tape is gonna be perfect

for like an Elissa-oid sentence.

Like you're just, I mean, that is like

when you get to mesh

with somebody like that

and you're on the same page

and you like believe in

the same quality of tape,

the same quality of story,

it's like you just gotta hold

onto them as long as you can.

- I think that's very

beautiful about leaning in,

like doing things as a team

and not operating so much as in a silo,

'cause as human beings, like,

we thrive on that connection.

So I think that probably comes through

in your storytelling as well.

I'd love to end on a couple things.

What are some of the

lessons you've learned

throughout your career

and things you wish

somebody would've told you

back when maybe you were leaving college

and entering into this field,

especially given like the

fact that you work so closely

and report on on students in particular,

what would you like them to understand?

- Well, I think, like no

one told me about journalism

and I wish that that

had come a little earlier.

- Oh, interesting.

- So I always knew,

yeah, I always knew I

wanted to be a storyteller.

I mean, I was obsessed with

"ER" when I was in high school

and I was like, this is what

I wanna do, I wanna make "ER."

- Yeah.

- Ask every

teenager in the '90s

- I wanna work with

George Clooney.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I wanna work with George

Clooney, that sounds great.

- Speaking of George Clooney, let me just,

my friend just got me a

signed headshot of Dr. Ross.

- There he is, Dr. Ross,

oh my God, I love that.

- But yeah, so when I

was in high school even,

I had my own video production company

and I like had clients

I would make videos for,

like the Erie School District,

I grew up in Erie, PA,

they were one of my clients,

I would make like the orientation video

that they play for students coming in.

So I always knew I wanted to make stories

and I was really interested

in film and video

and so I went to college

for documentary film.

But it took a really long

time for someone to say,

actually I think what you

wanna do is journalism.

And even when I told my dad

that I was going to go to

grad school for journalism,

he was really worried, like we

didn't know any journalists,

we didn't know any reporters,

like it was not really an industry

that felt very accessible.

- Do you think it feels

more accessible now?

- I think there that we're working on it,

but I think it still feels

like a big city thing,

I think it still feels like

very elite in many ways,

in a way that feels impenetrable

and yeah, I was really surprised,

my dad only told me that later,

that he was just really nervous about

me becoming a journalist,

'cause he just didn't

know any journalists,

he didn't know any reporters.

- Is there advice you would give somebody

who doesn't know any reporters

and doesn't really know where to start?

Is it just pick up the pen

and pick up your recorder

and start observing the world?

- I think that we tend to feel like

we need backing or permission to do work

that we wanna do when

it comes to journalism,

when it comes to writing or storytelling.

I felt this when I was younger,

that I was like waiting, as

soon as I got a job somewhere,

then I was gonna do the

work I wanted to do.

And what I wish I had told

myself was just try and do,

yeah, just try and do it.

Like you don't actually,

you don't need permission,

like you don't need the big names,

like it's you, you're the

thing that's like great

and gonna help make the work great.

- Well I think that's a

beautiful place to end,

and a good reminder for people,

especially if they're

beginning their career

or making a transition.

We talked a lot about

a few different stories

that you have published

out into the world.

Where can listeners follow you,

maybe learn more about

some of your reporting?

We'll put everything into the show notes,

but please let them know where

they can check out your work

and follow you.

- Okay, so I've had an

on and off newsletter

called Brief Stint, which

I feel like is very meta,

'cause sometimes I send

it and sometimes I don't,

but I'm gonna try and be better about it.

And so that is a Substack,

and I'm Elissa Nadworny, my full name,

and the newsletter's called Brief Stint.

So I'll make sure we can link you to that.

But I'm on Instagram @elissanad

and I'm on Twitter, now

X, at @elissanadworny.

- Awesome, well I appreciate

you joining us today

and sharing some more

insights and more color,

we've talked about the

importance of color,

but more color into what

it's like on the ground.

So I appreciate it.

- Thanks for having me.

- Well, that's it for today's

episode of "The Rough Draft."

To learn more about our guest

and to find links and resources

related to the conversation,

check out rev.com/podcast.

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Thank you for listening

and we look forward

to seeing you again on the next episode

of "The Rough Draft."