There is much to be said about telling the truth and being able to share that truth with others. However, what if you weren't able to learn the truth until someone exposed you to it? What would it take for it to set you completely free? Today's riveting interview with a former member of the Church of Scientology, Katherine Spallino, will leave you speechless with the number of different atrocities that are committed and are not well-known to the public. With this first-hand account, Katherine explains not only what it has meant to go through this experience, but it really means to continue to explore the truth, even when it is not easy to see and attempts are made to show it differently than what appears. We all have the capability to seek out the support that is needed, but it takes a special kind of persistence to be able to explore and recognize what we can accomplish with that truth in hand.

Guest Bio

Katherine grew up on a secluded ranch within the Cadet organization, the Church of Scientology’s Sea Org school for children. At a young age, Katherine began to journal about her day-to-day life, capturing the thoughts and experiences of a child coming of age in a cult. Katherine’s background offers the rare opportunity to tell the story of the hundreds of children who rarely saw their parents and were indoctrinated to become future Sea Org members. Katherine is no longer a Scientologist and lives in Minneapolis with her husband, happily raising three rambunctious boys.

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Intro/Outro By: Michael Dugan, Podcast Host: Voice4Chefs

Welcome to the podcast where relationships, confidence, and

2

determination all converge into

an amazing, heartfelt experience.

3

This is Speaking From The Heart.

4

Joshua: Welcome back to episode number 86

of Speaking from the Heart, and today's

5

episode is something that I would have

never thought that I would have on the

6

show, but after realizing the personal

and professional aspects of this story

7

that we're about to hear from my guest,

I think that it makes perfect sense as to

8

why we're sharing it today that nothing

is impossible to overcome, let alone

9

your own dreams, your own aspirations,

even the things that might have been

10

told to us at one point or another, but

then it's time to overcome and become

11

something that we never thought possible.

12

Today, we have Katherine Spallino

with us, and Katherine grew up on

13

a secluded ranch within the cadet

organization, which is the Church of

14

Scientology's Sea Org School for Children.

15

At a young age, Katherine began to

journal about her day to day life,

16

capturing the thoughts and experiences

of a child coming of age in a cult.

17

Katherine's background offers the rare

opportunity to tell the story of the

18

hundreds of children who rarely saw

their parents and were indoctrinated

19

to become future Sea Org members.

20

Katherine is no longer a Scientologist,

but lives in Minneapolis with her husband,

21

happily raising three ranbuctious boys.

22

I will tell you!

23

This is not one of these episodes

that I'm going to stand and let it

24

be told what you should be thinking.

25

I'll let you make your own conclusions

about what you hear from today's story

26

and about how Katherine has overcome,

really, not just the impossible, but

27

also understanding that sometimes we

might be fed things that are not healthy

28

whatsoever, and what you might think about

the Church of Scientology or not, is not

29

what my goal is on this episode today.

30

What I do say is that you have to make

your own understanding of what you

31

have as your own opinions and your own

fascinations about this type of subject,

32

but I will say, if the evidence doesn't

clearly say to you in this first person

33

account today of what you should think

about the Church of Scientology, let

34

alone other organizations that make

you feel a little cultish, I think

35

it's time then to maybe re-examine

what your personal/professional

36

opportunities are in your life.

37

But with that, let's go to the episode

and let you make your own conclusion.

38

All right we have

Katherine Spallino with us.

39

Katherine, thanks for sharing

your heart with us today.

40

Katherine: I'm glad to be here.

41

Thanks for having me.

42

Joshua: I appreciate you being

here, and I have to thank publicly

43

the Need a Guest Facebook group.

44

We connected through there

when I was advertising my show,

45

looking for guests, and, wow!

46

Your impact on me when I saw what

you've been through is something of

47

quite significance, so, Katherine, I've

already let the audience know a little

48

bit about your background, and I really

just want to start off with a level

49

playing field for everybody and hearing

it from you, I think is really important.

50

A lot of what we're going to talk

about today is really your experiences

51

with the Church of Scientology.

52

I was wondering if you could just

give us a level playing field so that

53

we all understand, including myself,

of what the church of Scientology

54

is, specifically what you were

involved with for a period of time.

55

Katherine: Sure.

56

I'm happy to dive in.

57

It's a very big topic, but I

will just start from my point of

58

view, which is I was born into

the Sea Org, quite literally.

59

My mother gave birth to me, in a large

building in Hollywood at the stars

60

were beneath me and I was born as

a baby; a sea org baby it's called,

61

because in the Sea Org, you are

working for the church of Scientology.

62

You don't go to church.

63

It's like being a priest, but not

a priest, and it's a Sea Org member

64

and they dedicate a billion years of

their lives, which is like, "what?",

65

but that was normal to me growing up.

66

I thought, "Okay, my

parents are in the Sea Org.

67

I'm going to be in the Sea Org.

68

This is what I was told was my

purpose.", and I think by like the

69

time I was 10, I'd already signed the

billion year contract several times.

70

It was like normal.

71

I also did not live with my parents.

72

I was in a dorm by the age of

six and that was in Los Angeles.

73

My parents lived in the same building,

just not with me, and then by the

74

age of eight, I was sent away to

a boarding school in the hills.

75

It's like the mountains above Santa

Clarita called the Canyon Oaks Ranch,

76

and it was called the Pack Ranch

Cadet Org, and its sole purpose was

77

for these children to become future

Sea Org members in Scientology.

78

All of our parents were in the Sea Org.

79

We rarely saw them, and we all were

operating us like a miniature Sea Org,

80

so we all had posts, which were jobs,

and we would work out in the hills and

81

like de-weed or take care of the horses

and renovate the classrooms, and be doing

82

jobs that adults would be doing, but we

were like eight, nine, 10, so I was there

83

until I was about 14 years old, and then

I was told it's time to join the Sea Org.

84

Joshua: Wow.

85

Katherine: So the Sea Org-

yeah, it's kind of a lot.

86

Joshua: Yeah.

87

Katherine: Yes, and all this

time I believe in Scientology.

88

Scientology, to me, L.

89

Ron Hubbard, is the person

90

I've been going to his L.

91

Ron Hubbard Life Exhibition that's

in Hollywood and seeing about

92

all the amazing work he's done.

93

He has all of these steps laid out.

94

This is what Scientology is called the

bridge and if people do these steps they

95

become enlightened and better people.

96

They go "clear" it's called so when my

what to me my parents are saving the

97

world, because they're helping people

go clear is what they would say, and I

98

believed in that and if I joined the Sea

Org, I would also help people go clear and

99

by doing whatever job I was assigned to.

100

That was my growing up process, so not a

normal life to say the least, and it's not

101

until later in my twenties when I began to

realize how much control Scientology had

102

over me and my family, and not only that,

because they told my parents to no longer

103

talk to me because they felt I was an

evil presence just to like really break it

104

down really small that happened, and then

from there, I started to do some research

105

and I realized how money hungry it is.

106

You have to pay for all these

services, yet my parents are poor.

107

I was poor in the Sea Org.

108

All that money is just

going straight to the top.

109

They're all treated inhumanely, and I

was lucky enough to leave when I was

110

16 years old, so I wrote a book, The

Bad Cadet, capturing my life, what that

111

life is like, because it's so hard for

me to just say that all in like a few

112

paragraphs, so if anybody really wants

to get immersed in that world, I've

113

written a book about that time of my

life called The Bad Cadet, because I did

114

not do well as a cadet; the cadet work.

115

Joshua: It almost sounds like to me you

were doing free work and being in a child

116

slave trade sort of thing, because of

all the things that- normally as a kid,

117

we're like playing out in the street, or

playing with her friends, or playing video

118

games, or doing something that is what

we are learning to grow in instead of you

119

building houses and mowing grass, and it

sounds like these are things that normally

120

children should never be involved in,

at least until a certain age where they

121

kind of understand what responsibility

is and starting to grow with that.

122

Why were they doing that?

123

Do you have any perception of that,

even to this day, as to why they

124

put people through that process?

125

Katherine: They considered us to be adults

in small bodies, so when you go, "Oh.

126

They believe in reincarnation these

little people have lived many lives.

127

They are more capable than society treats

them, so they can do these jobs.", so

128

at eight years old, I'm cooking in the

galley for the ranch, and I am standing

129

on a stool because obviously I'm too

short, and I'm leaning over, rolling

130

the hot dogs, and I fall on the grill

because obviously I'm way too young to

131

be manhandling this large equipment.

132

It's different if you're at eight at

home with your parents standing next

133

to you and you're cooking together.

134

I do that with my own child, but

there was one adult and then there's

135

like 20 kids all making the food.

136

Of course, accidents are going

to happen, but it's because we're

137

considered adults in small bodies

and we actually did get paid.

138

We have like a stipend.

139

It wasn't a stipend; we actually got a

paycheck, and it said our government, like

140

our name and then like fICA would be taken

out and going to the government, and it

141

was just $15 a week, and then ironically

though, after a few weeks of me getting

142

paid, I actually stopped getting paid

and I find out it's because I don't have

143

a social security number, because when

my mom gave birth with the midwife, she

144

never filed the paperwork, so now I really

am working for no money at all, and if

145

nothing is done, like my other friends

are all still getting paid; that's just

146

a random side story that happened to me-

147

Joshua: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

148

I have to stop you here, so-

149

Katherine: Mm-hmm.

150

Joshua: When you were born, you weren't

given a social security number so

151

that you would have something like

savings and a social safety net that

152

we have cherished in the United States?

153

That's that's just

really confounding to me.

154

Katherine: Mm-hmm.

155

It was just a low priority.

156

They had to go back to work to save

the world and do Scientology stuff.

157

I was number four; the fourth child,

so on one hand, you would think they

158

would know this already; that you need

to file paperwork, but on the other

159

hand, maybe I was just forgotten, but

I have other cadet friends, and all

160

of us have very strange things, like,

my one friend, Felicia, her name.

161

She always thought it was with a Z,

and then she saw her birth certificate

162

for the first time and it's with a C.

163

Her whole life she was writing

felicia with a Z, but because our

164

parents aren't there, it's like we

had to fill in these holes, and I

165

thought my birthday was one day.

166

I thought it was August 5th and it

turned out to be August 4th, like

167

I have so many friends like that.

168

A lot of misspellings of names, wrong

birthdays, because our parents just

169

kind of shunted us off, and they

thought they were doing the right thing.

170

They're like, "Oh, there'll be

taken care of by the church.", but

171

it was like, "Who's nurturing us?

172

Nobody."

173

Joshua: Have you ever been

able to meet your parents and

174

ask them why they did that?

175

Have you ever had that conversation?

176

Katherine: Yeah, so my mom and

dad, I would see them periodically.

177

When I was older from like eight to

13, 14, every few months, and that

178

conversation didn't really come up.

179

I would ask them like, "Why

don't you know my birthday?"

180

I did ask my mom that she's like, "Sorry!

181

I went in labor at night, and

then like goes early morning."

182

It's like, "OK fine.

183

I'll give you that."

184

When I was in my 20s and no longer a

Scientologist, but I still maintain

185

the relationship with my mother,

I was like, "I'm just curious.

186

Why did you send me to this ranch?"

187

It's not usual.

188

Normally parents hold

their children close.

189

You'll go to boarding school

if you're like a problem child.

190

You don't go to boarding school from

the time you're a eight year old just

191

because they are trying to raise you

to be indoctrinated in a church, right?

192

But my question to my mom was, I asked

her in a way that wasn't going to offend

193

her because she's still a Scientologist,

"Why did you send me there?", and she

194

said, " I felt like it was a safe space",

because she was poor from New York.

195

I had it beforehand.

196

She's Puerto Rican and she

was born in Puerto Rico, but

197

her dad came over to New York.

198

She didn't have a lot of money.

199

She grew up around crime,

so she was like, "Oh.

200

My daughter will be safe and she's

going to be raised in a religion

201

I believe in and taken care of.

202

Why would I not?", so to her, she was

doing something good for me, and I think

203

in her mind, she probably thought she'd be

more involved in my life, but she wasn't.

204

Joshua: Wow.

205

I mean, it sounds like to me, almost,

that it was the circumstances that

206

your parents, even your mom were

going through, thinking that they

207

were going to be taking care of, well,

at least the children at least, but

208

it was a completely different story.

209

When was the moment you realized

that this was sort of the wrong thing

210

that should be happening to kids?

211

Was there any sort of self actualization

or self realization, and can you describe

212

a little bit of that moment for our

audience as to what you felt and how you

213

reacted to it, because I can imagine...

214

Katherine, like, going through these

sort of experiences being told, "Yes.

215

This is the way we do things.

216

This is a way that you will learn.",

and then all of a sudden you find out

217

the truth and it just radically shakes

you to the core, so can you tell us

218

a little bit about that moment and

you have that realization that maybe

219

this isn't the way things should be?

220

Katherine: Yeah, so there's these

moments of clarity and I start

221

journaling about my life because

I'm like, this is a weird life.

222

I kind of wonder if I'll write

a book about this one day.

223

I did have this reality of knowing that

this wasn't usual, but I still believed

224

in Scientology and I was like, "I can

write it in a way that was good though.

225

All the good stuff.",

because I have good friends.

226

There are good parts to my life.

227

It wasn't all bad, and at the time

when I was thinking of writing it, it

228

wasn't going to be like an expose, and

it's still not, to be honest, so when

229

I became an adult, I had something

happen to me that was so hurtful.

230

My brother was getting sick.

231

I brushed on this

briefly, but he was dying.

232

He had a plastic anemia and they

needed a bone marrow transplant, but

233

before that had happened, there's this

method in Scientology where if you're

234

getting sick, it's because somebody is

suppressing you, it's what it's called.

235

You can picture bad voodoo or something;

like that person is doing things

236

to make you get sick, so the church

pulled me in out of the blue, called

237

me, told me to show up to the church.

238

I come in, and this woman sits me down and

she says, " There's a report written on

239

you that you're making your brother sick,

and you can't talk to your family anymore.

240

On top of that, your dad is not

doing well on his post; on his job.

241

He's a supervisor on what's called the

OT levels.", and I'm just like, "Whoa!

242

Like, what do you mean?

243

Are you calling me evil?

244

Are you saying I'm making them sick?

245

That's crazy."

246

She was like, "Yeah.

247

Don't talk to them anymore

until you do your condition."

248

They have something where you make

amends to get back with the group

249

and I had done nothing wrong,

and that was so hurtful to me.

250

My parents stopped talking to me; my

sister, who worked in the Sea Org, so

251

I was very alone, but luckily, I had

met somebody; my boyfriend at the time.

252

He was not a Scientologist, and

in Scientology, one thing that

253

makes a cult a cult is they really

close you out from outsiders.

254

You can't talk to people, outside

of your group especially, and

255

say anything negative, because

you want them to join the group.

256

On top of that, inside your own inner

circle of Scientologists, if you

257

say something bad about Scientology,

you will get written up; so I would

258

get reported on if I said this is

so unfair that they did this to me.

259

I would get in more trouble and probably

declared a suppressive person, which

260

means I would lose my family forever.

261

It's such wild stuff that I'm

saying, but this is how it is.

262

Joshua: My mouth has dropped

open, as you can tell

263

-

Katherine: I know.

264

I can see.

265

Joshua: Because I'm like, "Wow."

266

This is definitely of a cult

esque way of handling things.

267

Sorry, I interrupted you.

268

Go ahead.

269

Katherine: No, it's okay.

270

It's very shocking, and I know I'm

spitting this all out, so for the

271

audience, at the end of our interview,

I'll talk about resources of where

272

they can get more information,

including my book or other ways,

273

but yeah, so my boyfriend at the

time, he's like, "Hey, listen.

274

I grew up Christian.

275

I am not going to be a Scientologist.

276

Don't worry.

277

You can talk to me.", and it was such

a sense of relief, "Oh, I can finally

278

talk about what's going on", and so like

telling him, and hearing it out loud,

279

and he's not judging me and making me

put up a wall, was the beginning of

280

deprogramming myself, because there's

this moment of me hearing myself

281

say that these people are telling my

family to no longer talk to me because

282

I'm somehow making my brother sick.

283

It was so ridiculous, but I still

remained a Scientologist for another year.

284

I took my boyfriend at the time, he's

now my husband, but to what's called a

285

Scientology event, which would be like

if you're going to church, but it's

286

like, oh my gosh, it's like going to like

those huge evangelical big stadiums, and

287

then it's like a guy on the stadium, and

everybody's cheering manically, and it

288

was just like, "Oh my", like watching it

through his eyes, and they were trying

289

to sell a new product, and I'm like, "L.

290

Ron Hubbard has been dead for 30 years.

291

How are you still putting out

products on him?", you know, and that

292

everybody has to buy it, and as we're

walking out of this event, my friends

293

that I grew up with are jumping in

front of me, "Cash or credit card?

294

Cash or credit card?"

295

It was so insane, and I was

just like, like these moments of

296

clarity, and then I decided to go

on the Internet, and guess what?

297

You don't go on the Internet

if you're a Scientologist.

298

That's why they keep

Scientologists in there.

299

They tell them everything

that you hear is a lie.

300

We only know the truth, so for me to go

on the Internet was like a huge deal to

301

research and find out for myself, and

so by the time I was about 21, 22, I was

302

aware of exactly the harm that the church

does where I didn't know that they attack

303

people who talk badly about Scientology.

304

I didn't know all these things because you

don't go on the Internet, which is wild.

305

Joshua: First off, I want to tell you

how brave you are to be able to speak

306

the truth in this, and, you know, there

might be people that are listening to

307

this, like, "Katherine, you're telling

a bunch of lies and I don't believe what

308

you're saying, because I don't think

Scientology is that way.", and I have

309

always said on this show, and I'll say

it again, that I respect all viewpoints.

310

I respect what everybody

has to contribute to this.

311

Even if it's right, wrong, indifferent,

it opens the conversation about

312

things that we can do to be better.

313

That's what my business has been about.

314

That's what I've been working

with potential clients, and even

315

regular clients that I have, about.

316

I think it's all important so that we can

continue to make progress because this is

317

not progress from what you just told me.

318

It is indoctrination.

319

It is essentially brainwashing,

which I've even used that term

320

before we started this interview.

321

I feel that it is something that is

scary in itself because you don't

322

really get the opportunity to really

explore what's out there in the bigger

323

world, and there's something that

you said earlier that I really just

324

want to hone in on a little bit it.

325

You kind of touched upon the fact that

the group essentially disciplined you or

326

created some sort of issues as it related

to the situations that you went through

327

that might have been negative in nature.

328

Can you talk about that a little bit

as to what that is and what you've been

329

through, and why that was so important

for them to kind of create that negativity

330

in the first place, because I think

that it's really concerning to me that

331

they kind of put you through this.

332

Katherine: Mm-hmm.

333

Yeah, so I grew up- it's

wild to think about.

334

This is happening at a young age when

I am 11 years old- it'll be captured in

335

my book 12 years old, I read a note to

my boyfriend; I'm just going to give you

336

like a low level of where this begins.

337

I read a note to my boyfriend

saying, "Let's skip source."

338

Source would be a L.

339

Ron Hubbard lecture listening to it

like on a Audio and I was like, "Let's

340

go and hang out over by the horses."

341

He gets caught with the

note in the course room.

342

They call it a course room

instead of a classroom.

343

I get in trouble; not him, although I did

have the idea, but still, and then so they

344

isolate me and they put me on the ECG and

no one's allowed to talk to me, so I'm on

345

this group called the ethics correction

group that is meant to make me a better

346

person and to better myself, and I'm

miserable, and now I'm doing hard labor

347

all day and not going to school at all.

348

This is something that's already been

happening when I'm like 11 years old,

349

and what they're doing and what they

do with adults too is anytime you do

350

anything that's slightly bad or that

they consider bad, they will isolate you

351

from the group, and then have you read

a lot of Scientology stuff to better

352

yourself, so you blame it on yourself

and you think there's something wrong

353

with you instead of the people around

you, and then it's like a groupthink

354

here too, because they all look at you

like, "Oh, you're bad.", and then when it

355

happens to them, everybody does the same

thing to them, and now they're isolated,

356

and they're fearful of that happening

to them, so everybody's writing reports

357

on each other if they do something bad.

358

Spouses in the Sea Org will literally

write up their other spouse if they

359

feel like the spouse did something bad.

360

Yes, it's 1984 if you read that book.

361

Joshua: It sounds like

362

Yes, absolutely.

363

Katherine: And on top of it, there's

this thought regulation, so they do sec

364

checks on Sea Org members when they're

like want to leave and go on vacation

365

to make sure they're going to come back.

366

They don't want to blow it's called and

they will have them confess everything

367

they've ever thought, and like people

will do like they don't- you're allowed

368

to have negative thoughts, but yet in the

Sea Org you can't, and if you say anything

369

negative, like, "Well, I thought about it

would be nice to be with my grandkids."

370

They're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.

371

That's way off purpose.

372

You can't go on this vacation.

373

We need to get you sorted out first."

374

That's the type of control

they have on these people,

375

and it's worse in the Sea Org.

376

If you're just a Scientologist,

it's also really bad, but if you're

377

in a Sea Org, you are captured.

378

You are insulated in that world, and my

parents have been in it for 40 years.

379

They have no money.

380

They are in their 70s now.

381

I'm now hearing online, there's

like reports coming out of elderly

382

abuse, so I'm trying to figure out.

383

They don't even talk to me anymore.

384

I have no way of reaching them.

385

They don't have a phone.

386

It's wild.

387

It's not even a church.

388

You can call it a cult of Scientology

is getting away with all of this.

389

Joshua: It's the year 2024, okay?

390

We're in the world now of technology

and having all these opportunities

391

to engage with other people

from halfway across the world.

392

We have these systems that built in

place, but it sounds like the church of

393

Scientology is living back in the 1800s.

394

Katherine: Yeah, and it's amazing that

the amount of control they have on

395

the Sea Org members and Scientologists

who are living in the regular world,

396

around with other people will not.

397

They will see a newspaper article that

says "Dan Matheson: convicted for rape.

398

Scientology has had a hand in covering up

the woman", or telling them not to report

399

the rape and they will be like, "Lies."

400

and not even look at it.

401

That's how well trained they are.

402

It takes a lot for somebody to wake up

from Scientology, or to come out of it.

403

Unfortunately, that's what cults do.

404

Joshua: Yeah, that is exactly what they

do, and even some of the cults that

405

we all have heard in the seventies and

eighties, some of them that are not

406

coming to mind right away, but there

were some that were even broken up by

407

the FBI and others that will bring-

408

Katherine: The Jonestown and stuff.

409

Joshua: Yes, that's exactly

what I was thinking of.

410

Thank you for putting that in.

411

Katherine: Oh I have been

doing lots of cult studying.

412

Joshua: Yeah.

413

It's so fascinating to me that even to

this day and age that there's still those

414

sort of techniques that are happening and

that creates some of these opportunities

415

that don't really happen, because

they don't really give the people that

416

should have every right and opportunity,

especially United States of America,

417

although I have a international audience

that listens to this, to be able to have

418

these opportunities that they can have.

419

It's just crazy to me to hear this.

420

You touched on something that

I really am curious about.

421

I know my audience will too.

422

How did you get to the other side?

423

I mean, you referenced your husband.

424

Thank God for your husband to

be like, "Whoa, Whoa, Whoa!

425

Let's hold the horses here for a second",

but there had to be some grieving and

426

some healing with that, so what have

you done to kind of get to that space to

427

especially articulate and talk about it?

428

I mean, I'm shocked just sitting

here listening to all of this

429

because I've mentioned this to

other guests I've had on the show.

430

Usually when we go through trauma

or things that are significant

431

in nature, especially at a young

age like you have been through,

432

we can't really process that.

433

It takes a while for us to get over

that, so can you walk us through what

434

you've done to get to that other side to

be able to eloquently talk about that?

435

I'm very impressed.

436

Katherine: Thank you.

437

I think what helped for me was that

there was a level of myself when

438

I was young going, "This is weird.

439

This is different.", so I don't

think I was ever fully bought in.

440

I was never a gung ho person who was

like, "Well I believe in Scientology

441

for sure", and I believed in L.

442

Ron Hubbard, but if you read my book,

you're going to catch me going through

443

these thoughts of like, "This isn't okay.

444

I don't like this.", where I

don't just accept everything,

445

this is all okay for me, you know.

446

To process the trauma of not being raised

by my parents, not being nurtured, being

447

screamed at a lot because it was very a

military like school, writing about it.

448

It helped a lot.

449

In my twenties is when I put

down all my journal thoughts.

450

It was just a mess of thoughts and

emotions, and then I got nightmares.

451

I processed it in my dreams a lot, and

that was a for a few years, but that

452

helped, I think, to get it all out there,

and then once I decided to actually turn

453

it into a book, going through it again and

again and again, I wrote so many drafts

454

and editing, and then talking about it

with my husband, talking about it with my

455

best friend who helped me edit it as well.

456

That really, I think, was almost

a form of processing and having

457

almost like a therapist, but to

myself, but when I had children,

458

I had to do something else because

it's different when I had children.

459

Then I really became aware of what my

parents gave up, and I have three kids and

460

when my parents, again, they did it two

times, they decided to stop talking to me.

461

This is before my book came out, because

my best friend was on Leah Remini's

462

Aftermath show, they felt because I knew

that they can no longer be connected

463

to me, and it was very sad, and I had

twin babies and a three year old, and

464

it was Minneapolis and it was winter.

465

It was all these things; double whammy.

466

Joshua: Yeah.

467

Katherine: So I think I had

like low level depression.

468

I was definitely not myself.

469

I was irritable, not feeling my best,

and I'm an upbeat person, and I wasn't

470

upbeat, so I got a therapist, and she

was somebody I could just talk to about

471

everything and process it, and now I just

check in with her every six months or

472

so, especially with raising my children

when they hit these developmental stages,

473

especially when they're being very hard

to work with, like if they're dealing

474

with a lot of emotions, I'm like, "Okay.

475

What's the best way to help a child who's

going through this?", so I get help in

476

that regard because I didn't have any

modeling family of how to raise children,

477

and overall, I think I do a great job

with my children, but it's nice to have

478

somebody who's a professional, just

give advice and tell me this is normal.

479

This is how they react like

this because of this, and here's

480

some tips and tricks and so on.

481

Joshua: I've had guests on the show

that we've talked about fatherlessness

482

and really the importance of having a

role model, like a father figure, even

483

mothers for that matter, so I completely

understand where you're coming from,

484

because for you, you don't really have

that basis, so having that ability

485

to bounce it off of somebody that's

qualified, especially a therapist,

486

which claimed the fame for myself, I'm

approaching my fourth year anniversary

487

of seeing a therapist and still working

through many of the things that I've been

488

through in my life, Katherine, and I can

always say that it's always good to have

489

that ability to talk about it, speak

about it, have that connection so that you

490

feel like you're doing the right thing.

491

You feel like you're making that progress.

492

In the last few minutes, I want to talk

about your book, which we've already

493

alluded to a few times, but just to

put it out there for the listeners,

494

I'll have it in the episode notes

in case you want to check it out.

495

It's called The Bad Cadet:

Growing Up In The Church of

496

Scientology Sea Organization.

497

I'm imagining, Katherine, that not only

do you talk about your experiences going

498

through this process, which you've already

shared, but, when you were writing the

499

book, did it trigger you a little bit,

because you were even just talking about

500

in the last part here about just feeling

a little bit of depression, anxiety, kind

501

of having flashbacks of those things.

502

Does it still impact you to this day,

even as you talk about the book, and

503

if so, what's your go to to alleviate

that, because I can imagine that

504

you're still processing some of those

things, but I mean, like I said, you're

505

handling it so well, but yet the book

is really a view for everybody else to

506

see what you've been through so that

nobody has to go through something like

507

that, although it still exists, the

church of Scientology for that matter.

508

Katherine: Mm-hmm.

509

I feel that because of all that writing

I did, I overall am doing so well.

510

The interesting part was, I was going

to have my book come out anonymously

511

and not have my name on it at all out

of fear, and there is something that

512

people probably know about at this

point is that Scientology is very

513

aggressive if you speak out on them.

514

Online, they will flood you with trolls.

515

They will even paper your neighborhood.

516

They will send P.

517

I.'s after you.

518

I was also worried about losing my

parents, but then they took my parents

519

anyways, but then I was like, "Okay.

520

I'm going to do this."

521

I decided to write the book.

522

What I'm dealing with now, anxiety

wise, it was very scary, but actually,

523

it was very freeing to just put my

name out there, because now I'm not

524

living a lie, because I had friends

who are still in Scientology, who

525

are, like, talking about their wins

in Scientology, and I'm like, "Oh.

526

I have to act like I agree with what

they're going through", and so just to be

527

truthful and be like this is my story, and

the funniest part too, it's not funny, but

528

my book is not an attack on Scientology.

529

You would think it is with everything

I'm saying, but it's literally

530

just me growing up in the church of

Scientology, and I have funny moments.

531

I have like, "Oh.

532

That guy's cute.", total teenage

coming of age, but it's just in the

533

church of Scientology, and you really

get a picture, the full picture.

534

It's not just going to be all

these bad things happen to me.

535

There's going to be joyful moments

too, and I felt like it was important

536

to capture the world of that time,

so circling back, how I feel.

537

I feel proud and great.

538

I don't have anxiety.

539

Luckily, I was not attacked

by the Church of Scientology.

540

I might be too small and in the pond.

541

They have a lot of people attacking

them right now; speaking out, I

542

wouldn't even call it attacking like

Leah Remini's show, Mike Rinder.

543

There's a whole thing.

544

This is what I was talking about;

any audience members are interested.

545

SPTV on YouTube is huge right now,

and it's all these different people

546

who are in the Sea Org, or just second

generation Scientologists, born into

547

Scientology, talking about their

experiences, so there's all these

548

mediums now to learn about Scientology,

and I think there's so many of us.

549

There's comfort in numbers, so that

it was so coincidental that right

550

when my book came out SPTV was

starting, so I have a security blanket.

551

It's very nice, so, I don't know

if that helps answer any questions.

552

Joshua: It does, and it actually creates a

support mechanism that I feel that there's

553

these individuals that have gone through,

or still going through, what you have been

554

through, and it's really fascinating to

me that this is the first time I've been

555

exposed to this sort of conversation.

556

I've heard of many different types of

churches, kind of indoctrinating people,

557

but it's more of an individual basis and

not really a streamline because you hear

558

about the Catholic Church and the abuse

scandals with that, but nothing to the

559

degree of what you've shared, and even

if it isn't an attack, I will say this.

560

It's brave enough to just be able to

talk about it, like I mentioned earlier,

561

because for some people, honesty and truth

sometimes is a really scary thing, and I

562

know that from personal experience, and

I think I have some haters of this show

563

that will listen to this and be like,

"Yeah, I hate you, Josh, and Speaking From

564

The Heart because of who you represent",

and you can't people please everybody,

565

but the thing is, is that you're living

that authentic life, and I love that so

566

much, and that's what radiates from you.

567

Katherine, before we close, I just

have this one quick question for you,

568

and maybe you want to try to just

take it in a minute to answer this.

569

What would you say to somebody that is

listening to this, they happen to fall

570

across it, and they are going through some

of these experiences that you have lived.

571

What would you say is one of

the things that they can do to

572

help them get to the other side?

573

In other words, how can they escape from

that sort of cultism, or that sort of

574

abuse, that maybe they're going through

from such an organization like that?

575

Is there any advice you would give them?

576

Katherine: Yeah, I would say,

if you're already listening to

577

things that are outside your norm,

you're already on the right track.

578

If you're listening to things

that people have told you not to

579

listen to, never let anyone monitor

where you get information from.

580

That's what got me out was I finally

went and looked for myself to find

581

the truth for myself, so, go listen

to whatever you want to, or go read

582

or watch, and learn and educate

and find out what's true, what's

583

actually true, and not what somebody

tells you to believe, or some group.

584

Joshua: I love that because

the truth will set you free.

585

That's literally what I was just

thinking about when you said that,

586

and being able to surround yourself

with those positive thoughts and

587

encouragements are definitely necessary.

588

Katherine, you are an author.

589

I would love to give you

the last few moments.

590

How can people get your book?

591

How can people access you if

they want to reach out to you,

592

?Maybe have a conversation.

593

Maybe they're going through

something quite similar to this?

594

Maybe they want to have a one on one with

you to kind of give you their perspective

595

and maybe you can give them some advice.

596

I'm going to give you these

last few minutes to do that.

597

Katherine: Thanks.

598

Yeah, you could get my book on

Amazon for print and then ebook is

599

everywhere, and then I'll have an

audible out in the next month or so.

600

You can follow me @thebadcadet on

Twitter, Instagram, and I just started

601

a Facebook page as well, and I do answer

to DMs, and I actually have pictures

602

from my childhood on my bad cadet

page for Instagram, so if you're just

603

curious and want to see some of the

visuals, that's there as well, and yeah,

604

definitely reach out if anybody wants to.

605

I'm open.

606

Joshua: Not only have you been very open

with me and our audience about this- I

607

mean, first off, I'm going to put all this

stuff in the episode notes so that they

608

can access that, including your Instagram

and even the book too, if they want to buy

609

it off at Amazon, but I have to tell you,

you're a very brave lady for doing this.

610

I think that many people are afraid to be

able to open and express what they've been

611

through because we live in this culture

where we shun other people speaking out,

612

even if it is from a unique perspective.

613

Like I said earlier, I appreciate all

the differences that come through on this

614

show, and even on all the things that

I talk about, even myself, but I think

615

he represents something that is truly

important, which is no matter what is

616

going on, if you feel that something is

wrong, if it smells like something is

617

wrong, there might be something wrong and

you should get an outside counsel and I

618

really appreciate your husband kind of

pulled you out of that made you see the

619

true opportunity that there is in life,

and I'm glad you've written about it and

620

for all those reasons, Katherine, thanks

for sharing your heart with us today.

621

Thank you for being on

Speaking From the Heart.

622

It was really fascinating and

definitely a unique perspective story

623

that I have loved to feature and I

appreciate you sharing it with us today.

624

Katherine: Thank you

so much for having me.

625

It was a pleasure.

626

Joshua: I really want to thank Katherine

for sharing and being vulnerable on

627

this show about not only her experiences

being part of the Church of Scientology's

628

Sea Org School for Children, but also

understanding that our viewpoints about

629

what we might believe in an organization

and what their effectiveness is, doesn't

630

necessarily meet the qualifications

from time to time of being a very well

631

known or very thought out process for

even organizations such as theirs to

632

really do good work, because we might

lose our identity from time to time,

633

especially when it comes to understanding

what we can create as not only those

634

best versions of herself, which we have

continuously preached on this show,

635

but I think it's really understanding

what our identity is in the long run.

636

I don't know what to say.

637

I really don't know, and I think that

even to this day I still think about

638

the episode and even as I record this

which has been months later reflecting

639

on the interview that we had, is

really a fascinating topic in itself,

640

because I think there's a lot of

different angles we can go with this.

641

We could talk about working as a kid.

642

Does it really help you to create

that opportunity if you work really

643

hard to get the credentials, the

scholarships, the opportunities that

644

are bestowed upon you, if you don't

really feel like living in those

645

circumstances, let alone those conditions,

become what you really want to be?

646

Then there's the whole

other incorrect identity.

647

Do you really feel that you should

identify with not only the parents

648

that you have growing up, but then to

take orders from somebody else, not

649

knowing what you're really supposed

to be thinking in the long run?

650

Then there's the whole observation

about the Church of Scientology.

651

Don't even get me started about discussing

maybe some of those things that normally

652

I don't normally discuss, but I'm going to

let you make your own decisions about what

653

Katherine had shared with us today about

whether you think that this is really a

654

scary organization or not, but I think

there's one thing that universally comes

655

true when you listen to this story, and

it's that truth will always set us free.

656

No matter what kind of truth it is,

no matter what kind of things that

657

you might think are true, truth in

itself can always be very scary if

658

we're very skeptical of what that truth

can actually create in our own lives.

659

I think that we have to really think

about the fact that truth, sometimes

660

when it's really hard to face, It's

usually when we have to listen to it

661

the most, because we know that we don't

want to hear the bad news that's ahead.

662

Now, as a coach, and taking it from this

perspective as a coach, listening to this

663

story today, there are a lot of different

things that I really have to say.

664

First off, if you're seeking somebody

to really tell you what the truth

665

is, don't let them lead you astray.

666

Don't let them feed you negative

bullshit in order for you to feel

667

like you are actually listening to

them, and I literally say negative

668

bullshit because there are a lot of

people out there that will feed you

669

a good mouthful of crap, and I know.

670

There might be a lot of people

out there that might be saying,

671

"Josh, you're full of crap.

672

I don't know why I even listen to you.",

and that's a point well taken and I

673

understand, but we can argue back and

forth, whether we want to be on social

674

media or not, trying to figure out what

that best intention is that we're really

675

trying to set, but I don't think that

we necessarily want to hear that B.

676

S.

677

from somebody else, if we

know that that truth is really

678

what's going to set us free.

679

What if that's really what we're trying

to say and we're coming from a good place?

680

That's when you have to do your homework

and I've been a continuous advocate for

681

always saying that if you want to have

the best coach, if you really want to

682

have somebody that really works with

you, and really wants to see your best

683

interests in line with what you want

to achieve, they will take the time

684

to listen to what you have to say.

685

They will help you set the goals in which

you are going to set to move forward.

686

They are going to help you become what

you want to become, but it doesn't

687

happen with a snap of the fingers.

688

It doesn't happen from someone else

barking orders at you, thinking that

689

you're going to become something

that you never thought possible.

690

It doesn't mean that you have to always

listen to those different opinions, even

691

if they're coming from your own parents.

692

Radical, right?

693

I know that many of us can listen to our

own parents, and maybe we have a lot of

694

great experiences with them being able

to share some of those best interests,

695

some of those best hobbies, maybe some

of those best jobs that we've ever had,

696

but not everybody gets that opportunity,

and I think that we have to live in a

697

human body that has to experience some

of these disgusting things in our lives

698

in order to understand what happens when

we go down the wrong path, but Katherine

699

had a different story that she shared

today in which not only was her husband

700

willing to take her into this life that

is not something that she needed to

701

spend all her life in to make sure that

she realized that she doesn't have to

702

always have those opportunities that the

Church of Scientology was giving her.

703

She was able to make her own observations.

704

She was able to make her own

conclusions based on all the things

705

that were being told about her.

706

She was able to do her own research and be

able to make her own conclusions and that

707

today, ladies and gentlemen, if there's

anything that you need to take away from

708

this is that we have to make our own

conclusions about what's ahead for us.

709

Now, as a coach, I can give you

unlimited amount of tools, guidance,

710

opinions, all kinds of things based

on my own earned life experiences,

711

but I'm not the Church of Scientology.

712

I am not one of these cults that keep

on saying that you need to do X, Y, and

713

Z in order to attain life achievement.

714

You don't need to always be skeptical of

everything that I have to say, because

715

it comes from a place that you all know

is not only hardworking, but earnest in

716

its own nature, and from all the things

that I have ever exposed myself to, not

717

only outside of the business, let alone

what I will encounter in the future, even

718

part of my business, I know that sometimes

understanding and learning from others

719

can be the scariest thing that we will

ever do, which is why I want to spend a

720

few moments telling you about why it's so

important to re-listen to this episode if

721

there is something that you have missed.

722

How much more abuse will you take

from something, that is so incredibly

723

disgusting in nature, in your own life,

that you're going to continuously keep

724

living in it, day after day after day?

725

How many more times does it take

to go into that job and keep on

726

listening to bullshit, if you're

not willing to change anything

727

about what your life is all about?

728

How many more times will it take for you

to sink into your subconscious that every

729

time that you listen to any of those

people that tell you that you're not good

730

enough, not strong enough, not forthright

enough, to understand or even retain the

731

knowledge that you have or the ability to

create that best version of who you are.

732

How many more times will it take

for you for that to sink in?

733

If there's more than one person

in your life that's telling

734

you that you are worth more.

735

It's that you might be listening to all

those cues, all those opportunities, all

736

those segments, but you're not listening

to what they're really trying to share.

737

Freedom is the ultimate gift when

you're listening to that truth

738

that will help you to set you free.

739

Let me say that again.

740

Freedom can be that ultimate gift that you

give to yourself after you listen to the

741

truth that will set you free, and I think

all of us deserve to have that freedom in

742

our lives, to be able to pursue whatever

opportunities for development there are,

743

whether they're personal or professional.

744

I have had numerous people come

through my business and have seen that

745

work, by doing it for themselves, be

able to set them free for the vast

746

opportunities that lie ahead for

them, but the work is not easy to do.

747

The truth that we often have to listen

to in order to create that opportunity

748

for ourselves is not easy to do.

749

The things that we might be skeptical

about and what we need to work on is

750

not easy to listen to, but if there's

anything that you have ever learned

751

in this episode today, it's this: it

doesn't matter what you do as a kid.

752

It doesn't matter what

you do as a teenager.

753

It doesn't matter what

you do as a young adult.

754

It doesn't matter what

you do as an adult now.

755

It doesn't matter what it means

if you're older and you're still

756

struggling with that identity.

757

You do matter.

758

Everything that you do matters.

759

Everything that you'll create matters.

760

Everything that you are involved with

as a human being matters, and it doesn't

761

matter what anybody has ever said to you,

whether it's past, present, or future.

762

You have your own opinion, and

you're entitled to form it.

763

I don't know about you, but out of all

the episodes that I have ever done on

764

this show, and you will yet do, this

one rubs me a little bit differently.

765

Not only is it somebody that actually

took a stand for themselves and realized

766

that this isn't something that they

wanted to live in for the rest of their

767

lives, they decided to consciously change.

768

They decided to listen to the other

truth that was out there, so I really

769

have to ask you: are you willing to

listen to the truth that is out there?

770

Are you really willing to take that

risk that maybe hearing it from

771

more than one person can help you

set goal that you have into motion?

772

To help you create that opportunity

that normally doesn't exist?

773

Maybe even form an identity that maybe

you can have if you're just willing

774

to invest in yourself just a little

bit more because you are worth it.

775

I've said it time and time again I'm

saying it yet again on another episode

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that you're worth it, and I think that

Katherine has been worth it because of

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her ability to share this story with us.

778

Don't waste this opportunity Don't be

stuck in a cult, whether it's your own

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cult that you created about your own

self image, or it's about something

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else that you've been thinking.

781

You don't have to be skeptical anymore.

782

You just have to embrace the freedom that

if you take the risk in order to listen

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to the truth that has been around you

all this time, whether it's for personal

784

and professional reasons, or even for

your own business, for that matter,

785

it will set you free, and you'll be a

much better person on the other side.

786

That is no way, shape, or form a guarantee

that you'll be successful, but I think

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you'll be much more enriched by the fact

that you have listened to not only those

788

voices, but you're not being swayed by

those negative ones at the same time.

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Thanks for listening to episode

number 86 of Speaking From the

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Heart, and I look forward to

hearing from your heart very soon.

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Outro: Thanks for listening.

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For more information about our podcast

and future shows, search for Speaking From

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The Heart to subscribe and be notified

wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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Visit us at www.

795

yourspeakingvoice.

796

biz for more information about

potential services that can help you

797

create the best version of yourself.

798

See you next time.