Henna Pryor has spent years observing and experiencing awkwardness with a deep curiosity and what she learned is that most of the superstars we respect in the business world have one major thing in common that doesn’t get nearly enough airtime - that the key to thriving is learning to lean into the embarrassing and celebrating the cringe.  

But how does one do that?

Listen in as I talk with Henna Pryor author of the book Good Awkward: How to Embrace the Embarrassing and Celebrate the Cringe to Become The Bravest You

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Julie Brown:

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Henna Pryor

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Sometimes, I look at my nieces and nephews, or you know, even my friends

2

kids, and I'm just so jealous of them.

3

Whether it be because they are

laughing, crying, falling, dancing,

4

joking, imagining, singing, they

do it as if no one is watching.

5

And they actually do it no

matter what others think of them.

6

Research shows that early

adolescence, you know, around

7

the age of 8, is when we start to

notice and internalize social norms.

8

Then we become self-conscious.

9

It's when we begin to remember how

things make us feel, and then we avoid

10

things that make us feel awkward.

11

Welcome to episode 1 79 Of The Shit

Works, a podcast dedicated to all

12

things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

13

I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach, and today

14

I am joined by Hannah Pryor, a two-Time

TEDx speaker and author of the new book.

15

Good awkward.

16

How to embrace the embarrassing

and celebrate the cringe

17

to become the bravest you.

18

You know, you'd think the older we get,

the more experienced we are, that our need

19

to fit into social norms would decrease.

20

But my guest today says that

studies show the exact opposite.

21

That the more experienced and confident

we are, the more we try to fit into

22

social norms, causing our ability to take

risks, both big and small, to collapse.

23

Hanna has spent years observing

and experiencing awkwardness with a

24

deep curiosity and what she learned

is that most of the superstars we

25

respect in the business world have

one major thing in common that

26

doesn't get nearly enough air time.

27

That the key to thriving is learning

to lean into the embarrassing

28

and celebrate the cringe.

29

Well, I can't wait to

learn how to do that.

30

So Hanna, welcome to the podcast.

31

Henna: Thank you for having me.

32

I can't wait to teach you how to do that.

33

Julie: You know, I think it

would be great if we started

34

off by, defining what awkward

35

Henna: Yeah, I think that's

a great way to start.

36

So awkwardness has many definitions.

37

If you pick up, you know, any of

the 10 major dictionaries, you're

38

going to get at least three to

four definitions per dictionary.

39

But in the context of our conversation

today, when we are talking about

40

awkwardness, we're talking about

the emotion of awkwardness.

41

And the definition I use is Awkwardness

is an emotion we feel when the person

42

that we believe ourselves to be, our

true self, is momentarily at odds

43

with the person who is on display.

44

So in other words, who we are

for a moment feels at odds.

45

There's a gap with who they see.

46

And when that happens, we feel

an emotion called awkwardness.

47

Julie: Okay., I'm gonna assume, maybe,

that a lot of our behaviors, especially

48

the ones around fitting in with other

people, they come from our caveman brain.

49

When we were cavemen, Everything was

about being accepted into the group,

50

being accepted in, amongst your people.

51

And if you weren't, if you were

ostracized and put outside of that

52

group, I mean, it's essentially

akin to, to death at that point.

53

You needed a group of people to,

to embrace you and have you fit in.

54

And I'm assuming that is...

55

Creating the pathway for

a lot of the ways we feel

56

Henna: Yeah.

57

You're exactly right.

58

So, awkwardness is an

emotion of discomfort.

59

You know, sometimes people will say,

what's the difference between just

60

being uncomfortable and feeling awkward?

61

Well, there's lots of ways

we can feel uncomfortable.

62

We can be afraid.

63

We can be anxious.

64

Awkwardness in particular is unique

because it is a social emotion.

65

So, Julia, as you started to

say, it is not something we

66

typically feel by ourselves.

67

If I'm in my office right now and a song

comes on and I just am blasting this

68

song lyric and I'm saying the song lyric

all wrong, I am just, you know, failing

69

miserably, but no one is there to hear me.

70

I might have other emotions about it, but

awkwardness is not typically one of them.

71

Awkwardness is something we feel in

social settings when someone else,

72

or we're publicly in a place where

we're like, Oh, I didn't expect that.

73

And so you are exactly right.

74

It is very, uh, in line with and because

of our need for social acceptance.

75

Our brains still have a very real

and very hardwired, need to belong.

76

And so we are constantly doing

this scan because our human

77

brains, we want to fit in.

78

We want to cooperate.

79

And so whether we mean to or not,

our brains are consciously and

80

subconsciously doing this whisper

quiet scan for the approval of others,

81

which is where this emotion comes from.

82

Julie: And I'm gonna assume

it's just getting worse.

83

It's just getting worse

because of social media.

84

Because of, you know, likes

and hearts and comments.

85

Like, our need for that.

86

To not feel awkward, not, not just not

feel awkward, but to feel accepted and

87

liked and loved and whatever, no matter

how superficial it is, is driving a lot of

88

Henna: Yeah.

89

So why, why a conversation on awkwardness?

90

Why now?

91

So you've hit one, you've hit one of

them, which is we live in an increasingly

92

fishbowl esque world where it feels

like our validation is coming from

93

these likes and clicks and whatnot.

94

So that, that's part of it.

95

But there's actually a

second part of it too.

96

There is a weakening of our

social musculature that's

97

happening just across the country

because of the way our society.

98

has optimized for smoothness.

99

So a couple things happening in

the social media spheres, we don't

100

have to react or respond to those

types of conversations in real time.

101

They're not real time, they're

asynchronous, meaning somebody can

102

comment or chat and we can get back

to them later if we really want to.

103

We don't have that real

time social muscle flex.

104

And also just anecdotally, there has been

a diminishment of public space spaces.

105

We used to, you know, meet up in

parks and libraries and things

106

more often as a society of humans.

107

We just generally don't have as

many of those spaces anymore.

108

People don't go to church as much anymore.

109

You know, we just don't have

those same opportunities.

110

And again, increasingly because

of society, we don't have to flex

111

our social muscles on a daily

basis at all if we don't want to.

112

So let's just say Julie today, if

I don't want to talk to anybody,

113

I can order my dinner on DoorDash.

114

I can text everybody that I need

to get in touch with, have to have

115

a conversation or look a person

in the eye if I don't want to.

116

And because of that,

that muscle is weakening.

117

We don't have any

opportunities to practice.

118

So when we do get to a conversation,

let alone a tough conversation that

119

could be awkward, those muscles are

much weaker than they used to be.

120

Julie: you know, I hadn't thought of it

that way because I think when we think

121

about social awkwardness and we think

about our lack of social interaction,

122

we tend to blame it, not blame it,

we tend to put it on Gen Z because

123

they're the ones who were predominantly

schooled, the academic schooling was

124

done via Zoom because of the pandemic.

125

So I think they take the abrunt of

this, like we're not, they're not

126

socially connected, they don't know

how to do face to face interactions,

127

but you've just explained how it's...

128

Now it's every generation

129

Henna: It is 100 percent

unfairly put on Gen Z.

130

I will give you an example and my

husband, I love him dearly, but I'm

131

going to call him out right now.

132

The example I've been telling lately is

we were ordering dinner the other day.

133

We were, you know, on, we were trying

to order our favorite tacos on DoorDash

134

and the DoorDash app was glitching.

135

It wasn't working correctly.

136

So I said, you know, babe, can

you call to order our tacos?

137

And he goes, I don't want to call,

let's just get pizza instead.

138

And I'm thinking, I want to talk, my

husband is a 43, 44 year old man, right?

139

So it's, no, it's not just Gen Z.

140

We have gotten away from

opportunities to interact.

141

And, you know, I, I will, you know,

I'm going to put a little fire

142

under your listeners right now.

143

If you have ever been in the

grocery store line, And taking

144

out your phone just to avoid eye

contact or chit chat with someone.

145

This is you.

146

If you've ever been on an elevator

and hammered the elevator door

147

button shut so you didn't have

to have small talk, this is you.

148

If you wear headphones in a coffee

shop on a subway so you don't

149

have to even look at anyone.

150

This is you.

151

Our muscles are weakening and

we are playing a part in that

152

as every generation right now,

153

Julie: Yeah, I'm the exact opposite

of everything you just described.

154

I'm the person who's

like, Hey, what'd you do?

155

Where'd you get that bag?

156

That hat is pretty.

157

Like, I'm immediately

talking to everybody.

158

Part of the reason is because

I just find humans fascinating.

159

Like, I find the experience fascinating.

160

I know everybody has a ridiculous story to

tell or something that's happened to them.

161

And I, even if it's like just a moment

of interaction with them, I want a

162

little piece of what they have to offer.

163

And I, maybe I don't get as

embarrassed as other people or

164

as quickly embarrassed as other

165

Henna: It could be.

166

I mean, there's certainly,

there's, there's, there's two

167

comments I'd have there is one is

there's two components to this.

168

There's one of, you know, a little

bit of our natural wiring, but that

169

is according to research, maybe 50%.

170

The second part of this, which we

can talk about more in detail is

171

there's an element of conditioning.

172

There's an element of doing the darn

thing, and I would argue, Julie, and you

173

and I are wired similarly, you know, this,

this is a book about awkwardness, but it

174

is not a book just for introverts, I am an

extrovert, I am a 100 percent extrovert,

175

but what you're describing is something

that I really believe to be true in my own

176

career, you know, there's that expression,

Luck is preparation meets opportunity.

177

I, I, I, like you, even if

it's slightly awkward, we'll

178

have that hello, that dialogue.

179

And guess what?

180

That's where opportunity lives,

in meeting new people and putting

181

yourself in different situations.

182

So yeah, I feel like I've been very lucky

the last two years, but hey, guess what?

183

Half of that equation is opportunity,

and our social musculature declining

184

is making those opportunities

harder and harder to come by.

185

Julie: Yeah.

186

I mean, your book, I love some of the

examples you had in your book, and

187

I've listened to your TED Talks, and,

you have this story in your TED Talk

188

about how you had a boss who used to

call you Helen, and you never corrected

189

them because you thought it would be

awkward to correct them when you have

190

every right to be called the right name.

191

Um, and you also, in your book, talk

about how our, our sort of societally,

192

culturally, we love Jennifer Lawrence.

193

Because she is so awkward, like, when

she won the Oscar, she tripped going up

194

the stairs, it's like everybody's worst

nightmare, and she did it, and then

195

she joked about it a couple years later

that, um, that Meryl Streep tripped her,

196

Henna: Yeah.

197

Julie: you know?

198

Um, and so, I think your book

is all about sort of changing

199

our mindset around awkwardness,

and you say it's a superpower.

200

So, I think that's two questions.

201

How is it a superpower?

202

And if we can recognize that perhaps

it's a superpower, how do we embrace it?

203

Henna: Yeah.

204

So I'll start with the first part

of that, you know, just to, to

205

answer the, is it about mindset?

206

100%.

207

It's, it's twofold.

208

It's, it's about mindset and

awareness about what do we

209

believe about this emotion.

210

And then the second part is sort of the

action steps, the conditioning component.

211

When it comes to this emotion, the one

thing I want to start with is this idea

212

that you don't get to avoid awkwardness.

213

Whoever the proverbial you is, you

listening, you, I'm talking to you

214

right now, you don't get to avoid it

because to avoid awkwardness implies

215

that you've somehow figured out how

to avoid all uncertainty in your life.

216

And if you have figured that out,

call your girl up and give her the

217

recipe because I don't know it.

218

You know, it's not possible to avoid

awkwardness implies knowing exactly how

219

every single person is going to react.

220

It's, it's knowing that you'll

never trip over a crack in the

221

sidewalk in front of other people.

222

It is impossible.

223

It's impossible.

224

So.

225

Trying to eliminate it and

thinking, you know what, once I

226

get rid of this, I'll feel more

confident or I'll take more risks.

227

Forget that.

228

Put that to the side because

that's not happening.

229

In fact, there are actually

benefits to this emotion.

230

There are upsides to this emotion.

231

So what I want to articulate very

early and importantly is that

232

sometimes people hear, okay, being

awkward at work, but I don't want

233

people to think I suck at my job.

234

I don't want people to think

I'm, I'm no good at life.

235

I don't want them to think

I'm clumsy, I'm weak, right?

236

Even in personal interactions,

but awkwardness is not the

237

same as ineptitude, right?

238

I'm not, I'm not suggesting that

you come into meetings unprepared

239

and stumbling over your words

because you should know better.

240

What I am suggesting is that when

you've done a good job, you're

241

generally competent, you're generally

prepared and that you have a moment.

242

Where you say someone's name wrong,

or that you, you know, flub up the

243

section of your work presentation.

244

That if you are generally someone

who is competent and does good

245

work, That that will not hurt

you the way you think it does.

246

In fact, it humanizes you.

247

It's something called the pratfall effect.

248

It knocks you off this pedestal that

people sometimes put you on when you have

249

no flaws and seem so perfect, it actually

makes you warmer and more likable.

250

So there are so many upsides to

us taking this emotion and re.

251

Imagining our relationship with

it and how it might serve us to

252

lean into it a little bit more.

253

Julie: I always feel like...

254

When you're a professional speaker,

I'm a professional speaker,

255

we tend to also watch a lot of

other professional speakers.

256

And for me, when I see a speaker who you

know that there's no emotion behind it,

257

they're just, they've just memorized it.

258

They're not, there's nothing

ad lib, there's nothing ad hoc.

259

That to me, I don't connect with those

people as much as people who like me

260

in the middle of a presentation where

I flip a slide and I go, Oh shit, I

261

didn't know that side was the next one.

262

Hold on.

263

Let me go back.

264

You know, kind of thing

that does humanize you.

265

It does connect you with the other

person because we all, I don't know.

266

I mean, it's not that we

want other people to fail.

267

We just want to, you know, have

something that connects us.

268

And I think all of our abilities to not

be perfect or something that connects us.

269

Henna: Yeah.

270

And I think, again, this is the

challenge of modern society because,

271

you know, social media and the

optics that we're able to curate

272

online is that this person, you know,

doesn't have clutter in their house.

273

They don't have a pore on their face.

274

They're all filtered out, right?

275

We can put forth these

images of ourselves.

276

But the truth is, and the research

corroborates the idea that the

277

speakers or the leaders or the

people we look up to aren't.

278

Typically, the ones that are a thousand

steps ahead and have perfection

279

figured out, it's the ones that

are a couple of steps ahead, right?

280

Just a little bit ahead of us,

still making mistakes along the way.

281

The ones that the people we

perceive as most confident,

282

ironically, don't avoid awkwardness.

283

They actually lean into it harder

and their comeback rate is faster.

284

When we look at someone who's confident,

they're the person who can burp loudly

285

in the middle of the room and go,

Oh my gosh, that was awkward, right?

286

And just own that moment so that

we can all relax, all of our

287

shoulders drop, and we can move on.

288

That person actually wins the Confidence

Award over the person that pretends

289

like it never happened because they're

able to take that humanity and own it.

290

Come back from it, move on.

291

Julie: Do you suggest that people try

to do awkward things to see how it

292

feels or to see what the reaction is?

293

Henna: Yeah, so, so, you know, what

we're, what we're not looking for

294

is falsified moments of awkwardness.

295

I think that's sort of counterintuitive.

296

You know, part of the, the discussion

in the book is we talk a lot in

297

this modern day about authenticity.

298

That's like a big buzzword right now.

299

And what I think about the, the awkward

conversation as is what is one of these

300

obstacles to authenticity and it's

the inability to withstand awkward

301

moments is one of those obstacles.

302

But what I don't want is for

people to start performing.

303

in either direction.

304

I don't want them to perform by

pretending someone they're not

305

in order to avoid awkwardness.

306

I also don't want them

to perform awkwardness.

307

But where there is opportunity

is to put yourself in situations

308

where that's more likely to occur.

309

So in the context of what we talked

about earlier, The next time you're in

310

the grocery store line, I'm going to

challenge your listeners to do this.

311

The next time you're in a grocery store

line, just keep your phone in your

312

pocket and see if you can make eye

contact with someone and maybe just

313

say good morning or say hello, right?

314

The next time you're on a subway or in a,

on a train or in a, you know, coffee shop,

315

maybe just for 10 minutes, 15 minutes.

316

Leave the headphones out

and just, just see, right?

317

I'm not saying go out of your way

to say something uncomfortable,

318

but create moments where you might

invite a social happenstance moment

319

that otherwise is engineered away.

320

You know, call your restaurant

and order your dinner tomorrow.

321

Guess what?

322

They still, they, they still,

they still allow that, right?

323

All right.

324

Julie: phone.

325

You know, it's so funny.

326

I was thinking the other day, um, I

read a lot of books, business books,

327

and also guilty pleasure books.

328

And I was.

329

I was reading, I was laying

in bed the other day.

330

I was, I happen to be reading

on my Kindle, which I, I

331

like a hardcover book better.

332

But this particular one was on my Kindle

and it reminded me of when I was young.

333

And I had first moved to

Boston and I would take the

334

green line to work every day.

335

And this was before Kindles, it was

before iPhones, you know, people

336

were still, I had a Blackberry.

337

Okay.

338

You know, and I used to love my

train ride in the morning because I

339

would see what everybody was reading.

340

Because everybody had a hard cover or

a paperback and it was my excuse to

341

say to a person is that book any good?

342

And then that person would immediately be

like, oh my god Yeah, like let me like or

343

they say you know what it's really hard

to get into but it's starting to pick up

344

and it Would cause this really natural

Conversation and I think about that.

345

I don't take the train anymore because

I live in the suburbs, but Even if I

346

did, that's gone because everybody's

reading on their phone or if they have

347

a Kindle, they're reading on their

Kindle and you can't see what it is.

348

And so when somebody asks me a

question, so say I wear kind of

349

interesting clothing and when somebody

says, Oh, where did you get that?

350

Or I like your shirt.

351

I'll, I'll be like, Oh my God.

352

Yes.

353

Let me tell you where I got it.

354

And I stand the conversation.

355

Because I'm really into just these

sort of single serving conversations.

356

They don't have to go anywhere.

357

But if you, somebody said, Oh, I like

your shirt and I would send, Okay, thanks.

358

Like, that's...

359

That's not, for me, that's not

thanking them enough for, for

360

putting themselves out there and

asking me or telling me the comment.

361

Henna: and part of withstanding

awkwardness is understanding

362

that that may be the reaction

that you get from some people.

363

So what are we celebrating?

364

Are we celebrating, oh, this

person like loved talking to me?

365

No, actually.

366

You know, one of the terms they use in

the book is crossing the cringe chasm.

367

If you do that, if you say to someone,

Hey, I really love your shirt.

368

And that's an edge for you, right?

369

To kind of speak up and speak out.

370

And they're like, Oh, thanks.

371

You know what?

372

Celebrate your damn self.

373

You said the thing.

374

It doesn't, you can't control

other people's reactions,

375

but you said the thing.

376

You did a mental rep, right?

377

A social rep.

378

The same way in the gym, that's a rep.

379

You put in a rep and that serves you no

matter how that other person reacted.

380

And the truth of the matter is there,

you know, there are some situations

381

that are easier than others.

382

I'm, I'm from Philly Metro.

383

It is very easy when you are walking

in the grocery store and someone's

384

got a hat on to go, go birds, right?

385

Like, that is like our, you know,

it's basically hello, right?

386

But how many other times in previous

lives have we had just other reasons?

387

To do that that we've gotten away from and

it doesn't have to be big Herculean stuff.

388

It could be as simple as Great bag or you

know, whatever But these little micro reps

389

these these social repetitions are what we

need in order to withstand The networking

390

event the salary negotiation, you know,

if we are not putting in the reps and

391

small stakes moments We will not have the

courage to tolerate the big stakes moments

392

Julie: Yeah.

393

And I think as we look at society

in general, when we look at, I love

394

that term, I hadn't heard of it

before the social muscular flex.

395

When we look back on the surgeon general's

loneliness epidemic report, the idea that.

396

Us just embracing the cringe a

little bit can do so much for

397

our basic human connection.

398

I always say in my speeches that the

extra mile is never crowded because

399

nobody goes even the extra inch.

400

And like these little moments of just

like, I'm gonna put myself out there,

401

it might be awkward, I might be awkward,

but We need more social connection, we

402

need more humans talking to each other.

403

Um.

404

I think it could do a lot for the world.

405

Henna: It's funny.

406

I was, I was thinking that as you were

talking earlier about the connection

407

between this and the loneliness epidemic,

you know, the same way, and I'm sure

408

in the spheres you speak on, you think

about this too, like corporate culture

409

isn't something that leadership can just

throw down like a blanket and be like,

410

everybody, corporate culture is this now.

411

No, we, we know you and I that.

412

That culture is created between

a conversation between two

413

people slowly over time, right?

414

Same thing with community.

415

The loneliness epidemic isn't going to get

solved by an app or a wave of the wand.

416

It's one conversation at a time.

417

And so we as individuals, and I hope

this is empowering to someone listening.

418

You slowly can be the domino that

helps with the loneliness epidemic.

419

It just involves you, again,

keeping your phone in your bag.

420

I was at a, I want to share

a really kind of quick story.

421

I was on the airport

shuttle the other day.

422

I live, um, a little bit from the airport.

423

So I park at the garage and

then take the shuttle over.

424

I was on the airport shuttle and

these, it was a full shuttle.

425

These people, One, one gentleman

sitting next to me in a cross, just they

426

struck up conversation, which I loved.

427

Nobody was on their phone.

428

It was actually shocking.

429

Not a single person was on their phone.

430

They struck up conversation.

431

It turns out they, he grew

up in the same town that this

432

other couple currently lived in.

433

And he, you know, they, they

were, Oh, I know that street.

434

I lived on that street.

435

My dentist was on that street.

436

She goes, who was your dentist?

437

I was a hygienist at that dentist.

438

Long story short, this

ended with your Tom.

439

I remember you had a gap in your teeth.

440

I used to be in your mouth.

441

I kid you not, I, and everyone on

the shuttle is just giggling, right?

442

It truly was a core memory moment for me.

443

Because had everyone been on their

phone, that moment of just sheer

444

joy would never have occurred.

445

And it was just, to me, such a reminder

of why I'm so passionate about this work.

446

Like, put in the little micro rep.

447

You don't know where it will lead.

448

And there's so much, so much upside.

449

Just so much.

450

Julie: You know, it's funny and

I hate to blame everything on the

451

phone because it's a bigger social

conversation than just phones,

452

Henna: that can numb us.

453

Yeah, yeah.

454

Julie: Yeah, it's a huge, huge part of

our lack of connection and my husband

455

and I have a rule whether we're at home

or whether we're out, out for dinner at

456

a restaurant, we don't bring our phones.

457

Um, and we don't have children, so

this is a little bit easier for us

458

because we don't have to check in

on children or make sure that we have

459

a phone for children, um, to call

babysitters or anything like that,

460

Henna: sure.

461

Julie: but it came as a byproduct of.

462

looking around restaurants and realizing

no one was talking to each other.

463

And I was like, why are you here?

464

Like, why are you sitting in this

beautiful restaurant, you know,

465

and not looking at each other

and not having a conversation?

466

So, we have a no phone rule

and it's funny because we just

467

went on vacation with friends.

468

Um, we went to a couple's...

469

A resort in the Caribbean.

470

We went out to dinner every night

and we don't bring our phones.

471

And towards like the second day they

were like, Okay, no phones at the table.

472

Like, even they were doing it.

473

Even though they have kids.

474

Like, no phones at the table.

475

Like, because it is such a distraction.

476

Henna: Yeah, yeah, and I agree with you.

477

I think the phones are perhaps one of the

most pervasive awkward avoidance tactics

478

right now, but it can be anything, right?

479

Yeah, I mentioned like hammering the

elevator button shut or headphones

480

or alcohol or drugs, anything

that can numb us away from the

481

discomfort that comes with, I don't

know how this interaction will go.

482

I don't know how to react

or how to act right now.

483

That is the opportunity.

484

I know what I'm asking is not easy.

485

It is very easy for me.

486

Let me not be on a pedestal here.

487

It is very easy for me to pull out my

phone instead of forcing myself to keep

488

it in my bag on an elevator, in line.

489

On a shuttle.

490

It is my instinct is to pull it out.

491

So, you know, I don't share this

as some guru who has this perfect.

492

I share this as I'm on this journey with

you because I understand and especially,

493

you know, I it's not just for adults.

494

It's for kids to I'm I'm

trying to teach my kids.

495

I need you to go to the counter and

tell them that your order was incorrect.

496

I need you to be able to say

these things without going, Mom,

497

I don't want to ring the doorbell.

498

We're just supposed to text, we're

supposed to send a text that says

499

we're here from the driveway.

500

And I'm like, well, that may

be what we're supposed to do.

501

But to me, there's a rep that

needs to occur here, and I'd

502

like you to ring the doorbell.

503

Like, does it earn favor

from my 13 year old daughter?

504

Not so much.

505

She doesn't love me for it.

506

But I believe strongly That, in an

increasingly technological world, I'm

507

willing to withstand a little bit of

her disgust over mom making her flex

508

this social muscle over what I believe

will be the long term benefit of doing

509

Julie: Yeah.

510

I think you hit the nail on the

head when it comes to a phrase you

511

said when it comes to networking

512

Henna: Mm hmm.

513

Julie: people because I see people going

into networking events and immediately

514

getting on their phone because they don't

know anybody in the room and they feel

515

awkward and that is a crutch for them.

516

But you said, I don't know

how this conversation will go.

517

And I think that is the crux of a

lot of people's anxieties around

518

going into networking events and

talking to people they don't know.

519

I don't know where this

conversation is gonna go.

520

And you talked about it earlier.

521

You said, it's Being prepared for things

being prepared to have conversations

522

to know what you're going to say and

I think that can take some of the

523

awkwardness away, but you cannot control

how other people respond to your questions

524

or, you know, to you as a person.

525

So I think being able to say, I don't

know how this conversation is going to go.

526

I don't know if this

person's going to like me.

527

I don't know if they're going to give

one word answers and just be prepared for

528

whatever may happen in that conversation.

529

Henna: Yeah.

530

No, I agree with you, Julie, fully.

531

And I would say, you know, when it comes

to networking in particular, I recommend

532

sort of three things happen in advance.

533

One is, recalibrate your expectations.

534

You might go in with the best talk tracks.

535

You might go in with the greatest

story, the greatest elevator pitch.

536

And everyone might be in a mood

that day and you can't control that.

537

Maybe the company announced some news,

which has half the people feeling away.

538

You know, you can't control that.

539

So recalibrate your expectations.

540

Number two, rework your goals

of that networking event.

541

If your goal is people are going to

like me and I'm going to have this

542

type of thing, then you're going

to go in only looking for that.

543

But if your goal is, you know, I'm

going to meet two new people today.

544

And it's not really about how

they perceive me or whatever.

545

That's my goal.

546

And if I do that, I'm going to be

proud of myself and I'm going to

547

treat myself to whatever later today.

548

Right?

549

And number three is, and you mentioned

this, is be prepared not just for what

550

you're planning to say professionally,

but I encourage people to have some

551

little talk track for those that feel

super uncomfortable and awkward about

552

introducing themselves to folks.

553

So in the book, I share a story

of a leader named Satya and her.

554

Talk track was, my sister made

a bet that I wouldn't talk to

555

two new people today, a 20 bet.

556

So I don't like to lose,

would you be one of them?

557

It's like a playful, calming,

relatable entry point.

558

And she practiced saying that line

in the mirror a bunch of times

559

because she knew this was tough

for her, but she had it down.

560

She found two people that she felt

like, okay, I think I can do this.

561

That one of those two people ended

up being a major partner for her on

562

a project who she wouldn't have even

met had she not practiced this ahead.

563

So, you know, practice your

elevator pitch, but also practice

564

your entry point in admitting,

Hey, this is uncomfortable for me.

565

It's okay.

566

It's okay.

567

Julie: Yeah.

568

It's, it's funny.

569

I, when it comes to networking and

the people who listen to this podcast

570

have heard this a million times,

there's nothing else in our business,

571

in the different aspects of what we

do for our business that we wouldn't

572

go into an activity without a goal.

573

Without saying, this is what

I want to accomplish with

574

this activity that I'm doing.

575

And yet, somehow, we think that

we should just wing networking.

576

And just go in without a goal, without

a plan, without being prepared.

577

And that's why networking sucks so much.

578

Henna: Yes.

579

I a hundred percent agree.

580

And I think, you know,

people need to re define.

581

And I know you believe this because I

was listening to so many other episodes.

582

It's It's not a passive effort, right?

583

Networking is an active, active

conversation amongst humans that can be

584

beneficial no matter what level you are,

wherever you sit in the organization

585

and your life and your career.

586

But you have to do that mental pre

work and prep in order to feel good.

587

You know, it's um, I love the

concept of self handicapping, right?

588

So people self handicap, meaning they

don't do the thing because if they don't

589

prepare and if they don't do the mental

pre work and they don't research, then

590

when they wing it and it doesn't go well,

They can say, well, you know, it didn't

591

go well, so I never have to do it again.

592

But essentially they've

deliberately underprepared.

593

So then they don't have to find

out if they're actually any good.

594

Julie: Exactly.

595

Henna: we self handicap, and

we, as humans, deserve better

596

from ourselves than doing that.

597

Julie: Yeah.

598

I think as we wrap up, you in the

book say, awkwardness is our greatest.

599

asset Is that because we are losing

it or is that because it is the key

600

to social connection and like, why

do you think it's the greatest asset?

601

Henna: All of the above.

602

So, you know, couple things.

603

First of all, it's a signal, right?

604

When you feel awkward, it is a

signal from your modern brain that

605

says, hey, something about this

situation is making me want approval,

606

or it's making me feel unsteady.

607

And any time your brain gives you

a signal, what a great opportunity.

608

To explore it, right?

609

The truth is, if you have growth goals,

if you're you know, status quo, Sally,

610

and you're just good where you are,

status quo, whoever, you're good where

611

you are, then hey, don't worry about it.

612

You don't need to worry about any of this.

613

But if you have ambition to do something

different in your life, to grow, to

614

transform, to expand, then you will

hit awkwardness at every transition

615

point, at every inflection point, and

those data points are healthy to say,

616

hey, here's something I could stand to.

617

examine again about why does

this particular situation

618

make me feel really awkward?

619

It's data, right?

620

And then secondarily, that data

points to a very powerful opportunity

621

to say, Hey, here's a muscle

that I could stand to strengthen.

622

You know, I, I believe very strongly that

social muscle is like physical muscle, but

623

not just that it requires strengthening.

624

Also with physical muscle.

625

We don't just strengthen the

ones that are already strong.

626

Like if I have strong legs because I run

and I only continue to strengthen my legs.

627

My shoulders are not doing any

better than they were yesterday.

628

So when it relates to awkwardness and

when it relates to wanting to take more

629

chances, more risks, can you use that

signal, that signpost to say, here's

630

the muscle that is currently weak?

631

Because you are going to see the

greatest gains if you work on a

632

muscle that is currently weak,

rather than ones that's strong.

633

So use that as a signal to

serve your next level of growth.

634

Julie: And I think there's also a

lesson here too, maybe especially

635

for those of us on the, not me,

I'm extroverted, but who are on the

636

introverted side of the ambivert

spectrum, that when you are working a

637

muscle, there is need for recovery and

638

Henna: Yeah, sure.

639

Julie: It's the only way you're going

to continue to be as effective as you

640

can when you are working that muscle.

641

Henna: I'm glad you brought that up

a hundred percent and also not to be

642

afraid to make downward adjustments

So, you know if you're if you're

643

trying to flex some of this social

muscle and you try something and you're

644

like it really it took It out of me.

645

It didn't feel that good.

646

That's okay.

647

Maybe next time one step

back two steps back, right?

648

Can you make a little little downward

adjustment to something that feels more

649

palatable and slowly work your way up?

650

No one is grading you for your

attempts But we are applauding you

651

for attempting right like that.

652

That's the new celebration

is you tried You tried.

653

The outcome is irrelevant to me.

654

You tried something, and if this

was too much, downward adjustments,

655

no one is faulting you for it.

656

Julie: And one more thing in your

657

KPMG study about risk taking and

how it's easier to take risks

658

in a group than take them alone.

659

So maybe there's something there

about maybe somebody can help

660

you with these conversations.

661

Maybe you can have a wing person

to help you in these situations.

662

I have a friend in the

industry who said, I've always.

663

I've always loved having Julie go

to events with me because she would

664

always say the first, you know,

she would always in, you know,

665

initiate the first conversation and

then I could just come in with it.

666

She said, I feel bad for

people who don't have a Julie.

667

And so it's like, I think there's

something there about if you're afraid

668

to do it alone, find your person who you

can talk to somebody on the train with,

669

or, you know, at the grocery store with,

um, if, if that is indeed true, that

670

it's easier to take risks as a group.

671

Henna: 100%.

672

I mean, everyone's at different

places in this journey, right?

673

It's, it's good to evaluate and

take stock of where am I on this

674

journey, and I 100 percent agree.

675

I think, you know, Even in the context

of underrepresented, marginalized folks,

676

sometimes it can feel more challenging

systemically to speak up in the room.

677

It can feel more awkward to say,

Hey, I don't agree with this.

678

So perhaps, you know, if I have

a, I'm in a position of perceived

679

power or seniority, I might look

around the room and say, you know,

680

Julie, I noticed that you're, you

had a little eye flicker there.

681

I feel like you had something to add.

682

Do you mind sharing your thoughts on this?

683

Right.

684

Inviting people into the conversation.

685

100%.

686

allyship is.

687

always going to be part of the

conversation about helping others

688

embrace their awkward moments.

689

Julie: Yeah, looking for those social

cues that we, again, we are losing

690

our ability to notice them more and

more because we are, as you say,

691

not flexing that social muscle.

692

Um, I think that's really

important that you have said that.

693

Um, Hannah Pryor is the author of

Good, Awkward, How to Embrace the

694

Embarrassing and Celebrate the

Cringe to Become the Bravest You.

695

Hannah, thank you so much for being here.

696

Henna: This was a blast.

697

Thank you for having me.

698

My favorite thing that Hannah said

in our conversation was awkwardness

699

is not the same as ineptitude.

700

And the reason why I love this is

because in general, when we are

701

trying to master new things, we

begin by being awkward at them.

702

We aren't inept.

703

We aren't incapable.

704

We just need to create the muscle

memory around the activity we need to

705

slowly get better at that activity.

706

Awkwardness is not an aptitude.

707

And this was evident when she said

that most of the people we look

708

up to or aspire to be like, aren't

a thousand steps ahead of us.

709

They're just a few steps ahead of us.

710

They're just a little better

at the thing than we are.

711

She also mentioned that we can't

control how people react to us.

712

Especially, you know, this is

true in networking conversations,

713

but we can certainly control.

714

How prepared we are.

715

We can control how we feel about

ourselves and about our effort.

716

So.

717

Celebrate that you've begun to cross

the cringe chasm as she calls it.

718

You know, every time you do that.

719

Celebrate that little effort that

you did, even if you don't get their

720

perfect response from your effort.

721

Remember awkwardness humanizes us.

722

It connects us.

723

It.

724

Just might be your superpower, who knows.

725

Now onto the drink of the

week, which I picked, because

726

I think it has an awkward name.

727

That's literally the only

reason why I picked it.

728

It's the Harvey Wallbanger, which the

exact origin of the name is unclear,

729

but it is believed to have been

730

The most common story behind the name.

731

Is that it was named after a

California surfer named Harvey who

732

frequently banged against walls

while drinking this cocktail?

733

I don't know.

734

That seems like a stretch, but

anyways, The cocktail mixology itself

735

is credited to three time world

champion mixologist, Denato duke

736

and Tony of Hartford, Connecticut.

737

Where he ran the bartend new

school of mixology, and worked

738

as a cocktail consultant.

739

And Tony.

740

I mean, I don't know, is this

how you pronounce it again?

741

Awkward.

742

A N T O N E Anthony and

Tony and, and Tenae.

743

Is also credited with.

744

Is also credited with Freddy FID Parker.

745

This is a cocktail Freddie FID pucker.

746

Which swaps the vodka in the Harvey

Wallbanger drink for tequila.

747

And this drink was not nearly as popular.

748

Maybe because it's a little too awkward.

749

I don't know.

750

Here's what you're going

to need for the hobby.

751

Harvey Wallbanger one and a quarter

ounces of vodka, half an ounce of Galliano

752

liquor, three ounces of orange juice.

753

And for a garnish, you're going

eating an orange slice and a cherry.

754

Where you're going to do is fill a tall

glass, like a Collins glass with ice, and

755

then add the vodka and orange juice and

stir, and then float the Galliano on top.

756

Garnish with that skewered orange

slice in maraschino cherry.

757

All right.

758

If you make it, let me know.

759

All right, friends,

that's all for this week.

760

If you like what you heard

today, please leave a review

761

and subscribe to the podcast.

762

Also, please remember

to share this podcast.

763

When you do that, it helps

it reach a larger audience.

764

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you can find my book.

765

This shit works on

Amazon and Barnes noble.

766

You can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.

767

When you reach out, just let

me know where you found me.

768

Um, Julie Brown underscore VD on

the Instagram, or you can just

769

pop on over to my website to Lee

brown, bd.com until next week.

770

Cheers.