Episode Summary: Have you heard about solar geoengineering? It is a controversial approach to deflect the sun’s rays from reaching Earth.

The environmental protection agency of the UN has recently called for more research on solar geoengineering. Could this approach be the panacea to all our climate change problems? Can we stop caring about greenhouse gas emissions? What happens if we mess up with Mother Nature, once again? What have we learned? 

In this wide-ranging conversation, our hosts Jenn, Olabanji, Leekei, Kristina and Brian share their thoughts and doubts about any attempts to geo-engineer Nature.

To find out more about solar geo-engineering and listen to expert perspectives, go to ‘The Current with Matt Galloway’ on CBA 7th March 

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

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Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Olabanji Stephen Jenn Swanson, Leekei Tang, Kristina Horning and Brian Tormey

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and Community Connector, helping people help themselves.  

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

Kristina is working on design theory and using design process in everything. With a background in architecture, civil engineering and education, she loves research, play and co-creating. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

Brian is a Real Estate Title Insurance Professional and Goat Farmer in the US. 

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Ima.

I live in Scotland.

Hi, I'm Jen and I'm from Canada.

Hi, I'm Ola Vanji and I'm from Nigeria.

Hello, I'm Leaky and I live in Paris.

Hey, I'm Rod.

I'm from Peru.

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Hi, I am leaky.

Hi, I'm Christina.

Hi, am Aji.

Hi, I'm Jen and uh, and we're happy to be here today.

And we're, we're gonna talk about something that I had never

heard of before and I heard about it for the very first time.

Maybe you've heard of it.

I think it's kind of wild.

And if I can get the name right, it is Solar Geothermal Engineering,

which is not geothermal engineering.

It is.

Geothermal engineering, which sounds pretty innocuous until I listen

to what the definition of it was.

And leaky.

Is there another name for it?

I think it's, no, it's, there's no geothermal.

It's, it's geoengineering.

It's so geoengineering.

Oh, geoengineering.

So there's no thermal, there's, there's thermal.

Okay.

Because, um, geothermal is something else.

, right?

Is the heat?

Yeah.

Yeah.

From the ground.

So, okay.

So this idea, in my understanding when I listen to this, uh, segment

on our National Canadian radio station, um, is where you blow some.

Particles up into the atmosphere that will block the rays of the sun in order to

cool the earth temperature a little bit, and hopefully, uh, stop the, uh, what's

happening right now with the planet.

And, and nobody's ever done this before.

The conversation that I heard was about it, it being a very slippery slope because

we don't know what it would happen if we start messing with what the sun is up to.

Um, Yeah.

And it's not only just an idea, it's something that the UN environmental

program has called for more research into.

Yes.

So that's something, it sounds like a viable solution and it's a bit scary

because wow, we've got solution to all our climate change problem . Well, one

of the, the things that, um, one of the people said was they, Know what

would happen because once you put the particles up there, you can't control 'em.

Yeah, yeah.

And once they're up there, you don't know what it's gonna do to agriculture or.

or all of that?

Yeah, apparently.

I mean, they, um, they haven't done a lot of research on that, but it's based on,

uh, from my understanding, because, uh, I of course listened to the section of the

radio program you shared , with us, and apparently, , it's something that they

have observed from, um, what's it called?

, volcanos.

Eruptions, yeah.

Yes, yes.

Um, one thing that they have noticed is that one, there's

um, there's a volcano eruptions.

Um, , the temperature below this, the cloud of, um, you know, of the smoke.

Um, it's lower than it what it should have been.

And so based on that, based on this observation, the whole, you know,

the whole concept of, um, solar engineering is based on this observation,

this is my understanding, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

They said, they said the.

, uh, that goes into the air after a significant volcanic eruption will,

will, uh, deflect the rays of the sun.

And so everything is cooler down below.

So it's this, this idea that if they did a, basically a volcanic eruption higher

up into the atmosphere, um, maybe they could cool things down, but there's a.

Concern and trepidation around this idea too.

, I, I'm just wondering, and I was trying to go back to the, to this section

to listen to it, but I didn't have time, so maybe, , you have a better

understanding than, than I have.

Is that why once you've studied this process, you cannot go back?

Or maybe you can, I don't know.

. I think the idea was that they, they are not sure that they, you know, it, it

would be like trying to catch everything after you've, after you throw it up there.

Right.

There's no gravity, . It's gonna stay up there.

Oh.

And then how do you, how do you corral it if it's doing things

that you don't want it to do?

It would be like, , I don't know what to, what analogy to, uh, to give to

it, but it's like collecting all of the ash that comes out of a volcano.

It goes everywhere.

Mm-hmm.

. And so I think the concern is what if it, what if it does

something we don't want it to do?

What do you think of it all?

Benji?

Yeah.

You have some questions?

Oh, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting because like,

it's like, well, we'd probably.

A solution to climate change.

This is something that we should definitely explore.

Um, because if we can do that, we're, we're going to be saving a lot of lives,

saving, you know, but it's like, well, we're disrupting this, the cycle of

life sort of, because I mean, it's.

The heat is supposed to come down and, you know, evaporate back up

in some way and come back as rain.

Um, which, you know, were thought in primary school.

Um, but if we don't let it all come here, it's not, it's

not going to disappear, is it?

It's going to go somewhere.

Um, so like how I, I, I think it's a great thing to explore.

but off my head, it's like, well, we have to be able to predict

as many possible outcomes and be able to plan for, for them.

And if it's possible to do some tests in a way that, uh, you know mm-hmm.

, that doesn't kill us all.

, uh, But, but Christina has quite an interesting question here, and

I, and I think it's, it's probably something to talk about as well.

And she says, is climate change just about the temperature?

Is it like, well, if we say temperature go away, does it mean that every

climate change problem also goes away?

Uh, yeah.

Yeah.

It's a good question.

I, I think, I think there was.

And, and there's the other conversation around, you know, if we have a quick fix

and I liken it to, you know, diet pills or something, if we have a quick fix,

then do we all stop being responsible and taking responsibility for our

actions Because they can spend 10, I think it was 10 billion to try this.

Um, it was a lot of money.

And a who's gonna pay for it?

Is this gonna be a, a global?

or you know who, who's gonna do this and how many times are they

and who's gonna be in control?

Yeah.

. So there's a lot of questions.

And then what will it do to agriculture and different parts of the world?

So anyway, it's interesting that they're studying and looking at this.

I think it doesn't solve the climate change problem.

It just tackle, it's just a patch to solve the temperature.

To reduce the temperature.

So it is it, and climate change is so much more complex than just the temperature.

There's still cows, , and this is actually not the first time

that, um, humans us, uh, we are trying to manipulate weather.

Mm-hmm.

, , and that's a bit scary, you know, because it's, uh, I don't know.

It's, uh, I mean from people who , um, who believe in God, it's, you know, it's

God's action to control the weather.

But it, I mean, it's science.

It's um, it's current.

It's, it's, uh, it's physics, it's chemistry, but it's not

just one simple action, I guess.

Yeah.

So it's, it's a little bit scary, I guess, to, to have disability, to control.

Yeah, I guess, I mean, the, the other scary part is, uh, I don't know

if, uh, many attempts to manipulate nature has turned out very well.

In the history of humanity, , I don't, I don't think so.

You don't

I think you're right.

Well, we've, we've been down this road before

I don't know.

Brian.

Brian, you wanna, I mean, I heard you saying something.

You wanna go ? Yeah.

Hi Brian.

Welcome . Thank you.

Thank you.

Sorry I wasn't here right at the top, but excited to be here for

what is a pretty interesting topic.

I, you know, all aji.

I, I think your comment is correct.

You know, it's, and I'm gonna go to something leaky just said that for

me, when I look at this like, It's the combination of, you know, some

of the most complex things that we as humans to this day, struggle to fully

understand Things like fluid dynamics, you know, very complex chemistry

interactions where the chemistry reaction is happening, like at speeds and

pressures that have great differentials.

You know, like there's all these layers that happen in our atmosphere.

Um, if for the moment where it seems like we're talking about the sort

of, you know, The solar, the sort of like the, the aerosol in the, in

the, in the atmos upper atmosphere approach to, to this possible thing.

And within that, like if we can't, if we're not sure how the experiment's gonna

go, and it's also an experiment, like if we all think back to our chemistry

classes and our physics classes, right?

Like, , what did the teacher always talk about first?

Safety, right?

Like you, you put on your safety bib, you put on your safety goggles, you

have your glove, whatever the, the correct safety equipment to keep the

experiment contained so that it's, you know, what, what, where it can, where

the outcomes of this experiment will go.

And you're prepared for anything out outside this boundaries.

And I think in something like this, experimenting with something.

We're actually, you know, again, if we're focusing on the aerosols at

the moment, we're talking about, you know, stuff up in the atmosphere that

we can't control where that goes, let alone go give everyone safety, right?

Like there's, you know, like if this experiment goes sideways,

you know, we can't, there's not a a method for us to sort of.

Address the issue or the outcome with everyone that it could hit

because we can't tell where it could go anywhere and affect anyone and

and that could be in simply in.

cooling one area of one continent.

Mm-hmm.

and warming another, right?

Like it could be that we find that these aerosols collect in the jet stream in

a certain location and that leads to an unintended impact that all of a sudden

Europe is really cold, or Europe is really hot and Northern Africa is really,

is very cool and temperate, right?

Like that could be the outcome of this.

And we don't know, um, because of how things collect in the

jet stream and things and those.

calculations.

We, I don't know that we, you know, can really understand, we could start,

you know, Harvard was going to, was, was about to do a, a small scale, uh,

example study over, I think it was Sweden or Norway, I think it was Sweden.

And there was, you know, they, there was sort of some outcry and

it didn't happen, but they wanted to understand this in small scale.

Um, I'm not opposed to us expanding our knowledge.

, but I am worried about the, you know, and I think this comes to something

that I think, uh, you said Jen, like if we start getting too much conversation

around this, we start poking at this and it starts to become this crutch.

Like, oh, well that's what's gonna save us.

So we don't, I don't need to worry about this other thing I'm doing over here.

It it re it absolves.

This is that responsibility and yet this thing that we're hanging our hat.

could actually exacerbate the problem and make it worse.

Um, so to me it definitely feels like, now I'm gonna circle

back to Ari's statement like,

I don't know that I have a lot of examples that I can think of in

modern recorded history where we've attempted to mess around with a system

as large as our atmospheric climate, uh, ecosystem, and it's gone well.

I, I, I can't think of many examples that fit that criteria, and so I'm

concerned that this would fall into the other camp of, it did not go well.

Christina had a, a comment too.

Yeah, I, I have been thinking about, it's not, uh, about warming and

cooling down, but it's about, uh, cloud seeding in California, uh, by nature.

Uh, what happened in California?

It, uh, the coastal bushes and forest were depleted and cut down, and it's changed.

How much water fell down in the valley.

And so they found out when the forest stayed, the water from the ocean rose

went through the forest and then clouds gathered and then dropped the rain

before it went down past to Nevada.

So basically nature created cloud seating.

So there is more water.

In California than there is now, that when there are no coastal forests.

So that, I just wanted to comment on that, that there are certain

natural phenomena, there are cloud heating and it's very complicated.

It's not only the.

Rise re rising of the air and gathering.

But also there are some chemical and changes something I'm not sure about

exactly, but uh, there are some changes and things done by nature that the

nature changes local weather and local.

Yeah.

So that was my.

It's funny that you keep saying that.

Um, nature knows, how to, , cloud sit because this, I would say it's

a job of nature, of more nature to , to transform clouds into rain.

. By nature, it is the, it's it's the job of nature.

So, yeah, , it's made me smile.

But I think we, we have the science of cloud sitting, um, using chemicals.

I think we know how to do it, except that I think, I hope we don't use it

too much because , because, um, because it's creates, um, negative effects.

Like, you know, anything that you, you do when you mess up with nature,

when you try to manipulate weather.

But I think it's a technology we, we know how to use.

That's, that's scary as well.

I mean, scary, uh, if we use it too often, I don't know it, it's.

and nature can do it without the chemicals.

So , yes, we should, we should do that.

, I think we're dangerous creatures.

I heard a, um, I heard a, uh, first Nation person talking about, um, when

we had the flooding here that was so bad in 2022 and people lost their farms and

whole communities were underwater and, and such, um, from the Atmospheric river.

There, there was quite some drama going around.

A P community came out and were pumping out by hand the pump station, because if

they didn't, the whole town would be gone.

And, um, that whole thing was a result of a hundred years ago, they decided to

empty a lake and they emptied a lake.

Lake and they put in this pump station and they diverted the.

to somewhere else so that they could farm the land that the lake, the

bottom, at the bottom of the lake.

And this First Nation person was just saying, you know, , none of this

would've happened if that thing hadn't have happened because we had the

technology a hundred years ago to do it.

And uh, so yeah, we kind of mess things up, mess with Mother Nature, and then

somebody suffers afterwards, you know?

So it's.

It's an interesting, it's the tension, right?

We know how to do it.

Should we do it?

Is it important?

Is it necessary?

Is it the last ditch effort?

Like where, where are we at with that?

So Jen, it's interesting that you say that.

And, and I, I guess one question I might come in and, and almost ask us about the

language we're using, uh, which is you.

does Mother Nature have an intention?

Is it nature's job to do something right like that that denotes a certain

sense of like a responsibility and an ability to choose to live up to that

responsibility of doing that job or not?

And, and I don't, you know, my, I guess my question is, is that, How

things work or is, you know, there I, I guess I want to go back to are

there things where we are creating this persona within nature of like,

nature knows how to cloud seed without chemicals, so that's how we should do it.

The nature does it with dust particles like it, that's how it happens naturally.

And our chemical.

You know, like our version of that, like our sort of manufactured version of that.

But is there maybe to ask another question like is there, are there

examples where when we let nature do what it does, it, it isn't advantageous?

And maybe the question is like, it, who is it advantageous for?

Like it is an advantageous for us if we let nature follow this.

. Right?

And maybe, maybe us being the center of that question is

itself part of the problem?

there?

there, there, yes.

Um, yeah, and I guess it depends on the world view and, and you know,

from a First Nation perspective, um, indigenous perspective.

there's great reverence and respect for nature and for what the power

of nature and what nature can do.

Um, which is maybe different from the perspective of, oh, look at all the things

we can control , um, because we're, we're smart and we know how, and, and I think

that, you know, the ravaging forest fires that we've seen and all these kinds of.

um, like, like it's, it's hard.

It depends on, on which perspective you come from, and if nature is

a living, breathing thing, that was perfectly fine without us.

And then we came in as, as, you know, as we became more technologically

advanced and started messing things.

, that's, that's a perspective, right?

One of the focus of innovation over the years that we've tried to do it, which

has led to like growth and development and all the amazing things that we see today.

The mobile phone, the computer, the.

Amazing technology that we've had.

It's like we try to solve a problem, but we probably are not paying as much

attention to what that solution might cost, you know, aside the mental, you

know, energy that we put into it and, you know, some of all the other stuff.

Um, it's like, okay, we want to take, I mean, and an, and an easy

example is, well, let's go to.

And yeah, we can now go to space.

Well, let's take as many people as possible with us.

Well, that's also possible.

Cause you know, they're, they're working on that right now.

But it's like, well you are going with a lot of fuel.

You're going with a lot of all the stuff, and you're beginning to

emit carbon in places that we don't even know if we can do that yet.

Um, we've done enough around here now they're going to like the

upper layers of, you know, the stratosphere and all the spheres You.

It's like, well, well, we probably solved the problem of moving people

from here to Mars, but we don't know what's going to happen if

we do that at a commercial scale.

but, but it's like, we're more worried about how we can get more people there

than how that might affect, you know, the, the natural cause of things.

And so it's like, well, maybe.

Maybe we're, you know, we're moving fast, but we're probably just moving too fast.

We probably should be spending more time on some of all the stuff that,

that we try to, that we try to invent, um, or, you know, innovate

on or make better progress on.

And, you know, it's like, it's cool, but well, let's, let's be

sure that it's actually cool, you know, and, and we're not just.

And we're not just setting ourselves up for, for some disaster later on.

I was thinking about the First nation or the indigenous perspective, um, that

treats the environment and nature as, uh, as a living, breathing thing and

there's a different approach to that.

, that everything is, is in balance.

That you take what you need and use it all.

, you honor, you, respect you put it back, , it's more of a symbiotic

relationship, I think in, in many ways.

And, and yes, while we've had incredible.

Advances and things we really need to advance in, including medicine and

, innovations to help, uh, feed people.

And, you know, there's lots and lots of different things that

humans are amazing at inventing.

It's, um, there are different perspectives on how to look after.

Uh, nature, right?

Are we, are we truly in charge and dominating it or are we

living with respect in it?

And, and those are two very different approaches, um, to, to the planet we live.

Yeah.

And, and if I could, if I can say something in addition to that, which

is, which is what, you know, dwelling on what you just said, it's like, . Okay.

For example, with agriculture, you know, I also think that the people that

make a profit of some of these things are really quick to make that happen.

Then, you know, care about nature, and greenwashing is proof of that, , and all

the other stuff in the Ill like, it's like people, Grow food, you know, for example.

And it's like, put a lot of chemicals into the ground and then, you know,

the plant grows very fast, way faster than it probably should.

, but then the food itself is not healthy as it should be because

it's like, I mean, I heard a friend say, don't buy food from there.

I'm like, why?

And he says It's as good as swallowing.

I'm like, . Okay, . And what he's saying is basically there's so much

chemicals, you know, that's involved in getting that fruit or food to grow.

It's not healthy to eat.

I mean, even though it seems to have grown from the ground, and it's like the guys

that are in charge of that don't care.

They just wanna grow as.

Possible in the shortest possible time and get that into the market.

So it's like, well, maybe another thing to think about is like, you know, we

profiting from some of these things that put nature, in some imbalance is,

is, um, it's another thing to think about, , before we go ahead and say,

yay, we have a new solution, , there's this, um, and I, I won't cite it well,

but there's this, um, perspective, it's like a, a decision making lens that you

look at, that, that I believe comes from.

A tribe within the First Nations.

I don't recall where, so I, I can't cite the source here, I've heard it referred

to as, as the seven generation lens.

Like as you look at each decision you make and each thing you choose to do, look at

were that decision not to be done once, but to continue to be done in the pattern

and pace that you are choosing to do it.

What would the implications be?

Seven generations.

, what would be the implication if, you know?

So, you know, I was walking down the street in New York City yesterday,

and I sort of surprised at how much litter was around at the moment.

And I was, you know, like, and then there someone was coming

through and sweeping it up.

And this was early in the morning.

Mm-hmm.

. And then I was leaving late in the day to go get on the train

and go home, and there was a whole bunch of litter in the same spot.

, you know, and next morning someone will come sweep it up,

but then it goes somewhere, right?

We're just displacing the impact.

And I'm using Lit as a very simple example here, but whoever's walking,

and this is admittedly 42nd street in Midtown Manhattan, but so there's a lot

of people walking, but they're littering enough that it's even daily being swept.

It's re accumulating.

And if you imagined a week of that without it getting cleaned up, put somewhere

else, let alone a month or a year.

or a decade or one generation or two or three or four or five or

six generations, I mean, you, it would become impassable, right?

Within, within a year.

It's impassable.

Um, it's only made possible by the scooping it up and putting it somewhere

else, but that somewhere else, there is a cost there that just gets not seen.

So anyway, I ji some of what you were saying makes me think about.

the decision making through a lens that has a longer longevity than the present.

That is, that is such a beautiful way to see it, such a beautiful way to

see, it makes me want to like actually just print that on and frame that and

just put it on my wall just so I'm reminded every time that I, this is.

Lens through which you should, you know, look before making decisions.

Definitely don't put my name under it because I am not the source of it.

doesn't need Brian under it.

Brian said Brian.

Sure, sure.

You know I will.

I will say there's, you know, like decisions I'm going through and it's,

I try, I'm, I, I've been trying to, in fact, I've been working with one of

our guests for a while and was really enjoying working with him, on some things.

And it was really anchoring this idea, this sustainability concept in my mind.

and it started leading to like stress and anxiety and just even the things

that I think are like low impact, you know, uh, relative to the average impact.

It was, you know, creating stress and anxiety to, because when you really

look at most things in your life through that lens, there's not many that,

there's not many for any of us that have, that truly are sustainable, one

generation or seven generations out.

And, and it becomes a really tough self-reflective lens

to, to use on yourself.

It creates a lot of thoughts.

And now to, oh, I, I, I was gonna say that I think this is very key because,

um, and I hope that a lot of people are this conscious, you know, because to,

to actually save the planet, we can't have a few people thinking like this.

And I think that's why conversations like this are very, very important.

So like ideas like this need to spread, um, it's like an illustration

in the carbon noac in, in a page.

Um, and I have it here, but it says, it says that we're all in a giant bus heading

towards a brick wall, and everyone's arguing for a place to see this.

Okay, . It's a good content.

Um, like, you know, it's more like, well we're all prioritizing the wrong thing.

If we're all heading towards the same do and I'm glad we're doing this cause

this makes conversations like this, you know, makes ideas like this to spread.

Um, cause we really, really do need it to.

, um, and to influence as many decisions that have been made as possible.

So on that cheery topic, I think we need to

No, it's good.

Yeah.

It, it's good.

And I was, uh, when I was listening to this thing on the radio, I

thought, okay, that's interesting.

Um, whether I'm for or against.

, what can I do about that?

Well, you know, it's a piece of news that is not useful to me, but you,

Ola, Benji, are very nicely, um, highlighted the fact that we, it

help us have better conversations.

So, yeah, so it was not another junk piece of news.

So, is it fair to say that sounds good?

Uh, not so much

I, I, I think it's, I'll say it is, it is sounding, but it

is, it's yet to sound good.

, you know, more like, uh, yeah, but like, we need to answer a lot

more questions before we talk.

The budget for it.

Like, well, what's the budget doing?

You know, how many questions will the budget be able to answer if

the solution's been deployed?

Um, and all that.

I mean, I know there are so many intelligent people working on it, so

I mean, they probably are thinking about it, but, and I hope they are,

but , Uh, and it's not, it's not so much a, a question of budget because

it's, um, it causes a lot of money.

But, you know, it's a, it's a sort of money that can be found.

They're talking about 10 billion for that.

I mean, it's, it's not so much money to solve all this,

this, you know, this problem.

So, yeah, it, it was really, a solution.

The money can be found.

You know, it's interesting.

When I was researching it, there was a couple.

Layers to it.

You know, one layer was this sort of pushback against it even being

explored in the, in the current modern conversation because of this sort of,

it accidentally becoming this hope that everyone hangs their hat on and

absolves them of their own responsibility and their, their daily behaviors.

Like that was one re pushback reason against it.

One that I found that was compelling and interesting that

was for it for geoengineering was.

There are some parts of climate change where as the impact of climate change

has an impact, it actually is a self replicating and self, uh, accelerating

cycle where the creation of the Dust Bowl actually creates more dust bowl, right?

Like the, the thing becomes a self-reinforcing cycle and.

If geoengineering can be used to shave off sort of the peak of this, like we're,

we're, we're going in one, or maybe if we wanna use the classical down,

we're going down in a bad direction.

and like we're gonna, we're gonna try and pull this plane back around, be hopefully

before the bus crashes in the wall.

We're gonna, we're gonna pull it around, but maybe this just helps shave some

of that peak off a little bit, even though it does have some implications.

Right.

Whether those are some, you know, and this is, this becomes a real mm-hmm.

ethics dilemma.

Mm-hmm.

, right.

Of, okay.

Well, let's hypothetically say there are health implications

to 1% of the world's popul.

if we use aeros halls and 1% of the world's population has

significant health impact mm-hmm.

, but it means we go from, you know, we, we were tracking to hit two and a half

degrees Celsius and we actually skate by, and we, we curl the bus around at

only two degrees and that extra half a degree over the course of a decade might

mean 5% of the world's population is.

do you still do the action that puts at risk 1%?

Yeah.

If you believe that the math bears out, that you'll save 5%.

, you know, these become really big ethics questions.

I don't mm-hmm.

, Jen, you, I feel like the o you're the best suited to answer these

Oh, no, . And, and I actually do have a follow up question, right?

Because it's more like, hmm, if this is a solution, right?

Like, and the budget for this is 10 billion.

My other question is, what else can 10 billion do to curb

the problem that we have now?

And can we do that instead?

Um, you know, I mean, to put that in perspective, you know, we've got,

um, I was just reading an article.

I might actually still have it up here about, let me see if I do.

Um, about the US clean energy transition and, uh, Mr.

Gigha, who is sort of heading up and he's, he's in charge of the US deploying

400 billion, so 40 times as much money.

is being deployed in the US over a only a few years towards, you

know, a variety of programs.

Things like solar incentives and other clean energy incentives, you know,

many different kinds of programs.

Mm-hmm.

, um, that's 400 billion.

Wow.

You know, if you went to him and his, and his US based department

and you said, here's four instead of 400, you now have 410.

I don't know.

That would tip.

I don't know that, that, that extra 10 billion worth, well,

to us it sounds like a lot.

I don't know that it would sway things significantly differently in the impact

of his programs to go from 400 to four 10.

Yeah, that's, that's on perspective.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Interesting conversation.

Yeah.

, Pandora's.

Just call it that.

It is.

I mean, I, you know, I, I really think some of it comes down to, I, I'd liken

it to that experiment that if you, you're not sure what could happen, but

you know that some of what could happen, Has fairly negative consequences for

some people, but it could yield very positive outcomes for other people.

But you don't know who, which is, which are we in a place to pull the trigger to

like make that decision, take that action?

Like how do you assess that decision from an ethics perspective?

And yet maybe we can ask the same question every day that we enjoy some convenience.

right?

Let's say that convenience is getting in an airplane and flying

to see a friend just for a weekend away on a sunny beach because it's

cold and blustery and wintery.

Here in the Northeast or many other places, there's a, there's a current,

you're benefiting someone, maybe you and that friend, but at the expense

of an impact to someone else, right?

Somewhere.

The impact of that, It's landings, the impact is landing somewhere.

Um, and you don't know where, but it has a negative impact.

And so every day we make these decisions.

Mm-hmm.

, we just, I think, aren't confronted with them as a question in the same

way that maybe something as big as this geoengineering topic becomes an inherent.

binary question and, and another thought is that it's an all or nothing solution in

that there may be people who don't agree with it, but they won't have a choice.

, if we're talking about something that goes up into the atmosphere that affects

the entire planet and could continue to affect it for years because the

particles or the aerosols won't go.

they'll be, they'll be up there somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah.

It's, it's a big, big thing.

, big question.

That's huge.

If it works, um, whoever owns the technology will say, will claim

that I, I own the world because I solved the world's biggest problem.

So the world is mine.

So that creates another, yeah.

Major problem again.

So interesting.

Hmm.

Things that make you say, hm.

Hmm.

. Yeah, I, I, I think this is definitely a topic to track progress on and follow up,

you know, seriously with, to, um, to keep our listeners abreast of what's happening.

And so who knows someone in position might be listening as well.

And, um, yeah, this definitely something to, to, to keep talking.

Until we see through.

Whatever that means, . Uh, but I think we opened the Pandora box

long time ago when we first made the decision to drill holes to get oil.

You know, when you, you said, oh, Pandora box.

you know, the image that came to my mind was the, the scene of, I

don't know if you've seen it, um, this film with Daniel Delis, I think

called There Will Be Blood Yes.

Frame Movie.

It's, that's, that's a great movie.

Wow.

And, um, so it's the story of the, I think the, the first, um, one of the

first, um, uh, what do you call it?

Uh, you know, people that went and find and looked for oil and that

there was one of the first companies, I don't know if it's based on the

true story, but it was really, really compelling because it's, um, it.

About maybe like 10 or 15 years ago.

I didn't get the whole sense of there will be blood because of, you know, it, uh,

with the oil, it comes a lot of money.

And, uh, and so he, uh, he is lost.

I think his family and, you know, he, he end up alone, lonely.

But then now I get the full essence of the title.

There will be Blood because it's, you know, by drilling this whole.

uh, it's not oil, the black thing that came out, but it's really blood and,

uh, we'll pay the consequences of that.

Okay.

We need to end this on a high note.

Trying,

well, here's, here's the high note that I will say.

Let's see here.

I've got two directions I could take it.

One as a high.

I'm gonna go to the 400 billion that we're spending here in the US and

I work in a business for my day job where we do real estate transactions

and we transact in the energy space.

And I have a number of clients who are building large solar fields and wind

farms and these kind of things, and.

With some of these incentives fueled by, in this case the example, 400

billion, uh, for our local economy.

The pace and the speed of these projects and the, the volume of them really

is picking up and it's becoming a much bigger, faster growing part of,

at least here in the US with these incentives and things like, it's really

an interesting speeding up kind of process and to me that's exciting.

to get to work with that on a daily basis and sort of see, you know, early

this morning I was working on a 4,000 acre wind farm project, you know,

and we're, we're dealing with these, you know, like really exciting kind

of things where I'm like, oh, this is, this is gonna make a difference.

And, that's one positive note is I, I do think that there are dollars

that are going and are creating pattern change that do hopefully

move us towards a sustainability.

Cuz if you put that seven generation.

on some of those things.

It's like, yeah, like I can see that being good and useful for mm-hmm.

for those seven generations and forward.

Um, and the other one I would say is while I was researching this

geoengineering, I was surprised at the many other versions of geoengineering.

that are actually available to some of us.

Things like planting a tree, right?

Like that's, you know, there's these different other kinds that

we don't necessarily think of in this big global movable climb,

you know, Airstream kind of way.

But like you just think about them because they're on the ground

differently, but, oh wait, yeah.

Meat planting a tree, right?

We have Arbor Day coming up in a bit like that is helping geo

engineer and move the planet toward.

, uh, direction in a good way.

So maybe we can all think about the, the kind of geoengineering that is

an experiment that we can do within constraints and won't hurt other people

and will likely lead to good things.

Plant a tree, grow some food.

I love that . Yeah, there's our good, there's our good.

Thanks Brian.

Yeah, . This was lovely friends.

Thanks for the conversation.

Yeah, yeah.

Good to see you all.

Good to see you too.

Bye-bye.

Good to see you.

Bye.

Thanks.

I enjoyed it.

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