Successful channel partnerships need focus and collaboration, and in an increasingly uncertain climate, it becomes even more important that we not take existing relationships for granted.

Joining Anna to continue their conversation on channel success are Steve Warburton and Matt Hathorn.

Guests

Steve Warburton is Managing Director of Zen Internet's partner and consumer business, and one of the most highly-regarded channel leaders in the industry.

Matt Hathorn is CEO of Recur, which has been helping vendors and partners activate and deliver on their mutual sales growth plans, for over a decade.

Key takeaways

• Effective execution of strategy starts from the shop floor, not from the top down.
• This value exchange should be evident across sales, operations, technical, etc.
• Now more than ever during a challenging economic period, it’s important to know what you’re good at, and focus on delivering that core competency, rather than become tempted by other avenues that ultimately dilute the core business offering.
• Enablement is an open-ended activity. Activation is what drives real sales. It’s less well-understood but more impactful.
• It’s far easier to learn in bitesized chunks, but those chunks need to be connected together to create an effective learning journey.
• Ferocious competition is not always in the interest of the customer, especially if it leads to businesses failing to co-operate to deliver customer success.
• If a client is acquired by a larger entity, we cannot assume the relationships we’ve built with that partner will hold, so we need to view a merger or acquisition as the beginning of a new relationship, and put in all the requisite effort to create success.
• Why a partner who’s just been acquired might be like an oil tanker arriving at the front door – and what to do about it.

Links

• Connect with Steve on LinkedIn
• Connect with Matt on LinkedIn
• Revenue Riser S02E02: Take your channel success to the next level

if you can't quickly establish that alignment and engagement,

then you'll very quickly be, um, a casualty of the M and A process.

We've done some cases where we've been working with the partner for 20 years

it's quite easy I think to get a bit complacent in those situations and think,

Oh yeah, of course they're gonna use us.

Of course, the new entity will understand the value.

I've certainly seen that complacency at times where, um, I've had to kind

of remind the guys that, uh, we really need to move at pace now and, uh, get

established in that new relationship.

The world is ever changing.

So what makes a good channel partner these days?

What assumptions do we have about what will make a partnership successful

and what might we be missing?

Welcome to this episode of Revenue Riser.

I'm your host, Anna Brior Guest.

I'm delighted that Steve Warburton and Matt Hathorn both agreed to come

back on and share more insights on how they see the channel evolving today.

They both bring a wealth of practical experience, and I've worked with

both of them over a number of years.

Steve Warburton is Managing Director of Zen Internet's partner and consumer

business, and one of the most highly regarded channel leaders in the

industry, with a really pragmatic and empathetic view of what, what makes

partnerships really gel and work together.

Matt Hathorn is CEO of Recur, which has spent over a decade helping vendors and

partners to really activate and deliver on their mutual sales growth plans.

Matt has really practical experience and clear views on what makes a

difference between enablement and true activation that is gonna drive results.

So join me now as we learn how to truly optimize those

key partnerships for success.

Steve, we talk a lot about what makes a good partnership, but what are you

seeing as changing in terms of how you might answer that question these days?

Yeah, it's a interesting question, Anna.

I think, um, yeah, we've onboarded a number of new partners over the last,

over the last year, and I think what I often say to the, to the team and

to our partners actually is, um, it's all about being very clear about the

purpose of that partnership, you know, What we're trying to get out of it,

What's the benefits for both parties?

You know, if I commit to X and you commit to Y, we get Z result, and

being very, very open and clear about those commitments early on.

I think it's all so easy to feel as a supplier that all the commitments on

you, but actually I think it, you know, those partnerships needs to be two-way.

There needs to be a joint joint partnership.

I think the other thing we see is about engagement.

So often we have, you know, great conversations, atec level, you know,

the myself and the equivalent in my partner is, is our bought it.

And then we sit there and again, three months later, six months

later, and it hasn't quite happened.

And I think often it's because so much focus has switched to exec engagement.

And, and sometimes we can forget about the importance of the engagement with people,

perhaps a bit lower down the business.

So in sales and operations and marketing and support teams who, at the end of

the day play a pivotal role in natural execution of, of, of said strategy.

So, uh, yeah, I'd encourage our listeners to think about, not just exec level,

but also those people on the on the shop floor who ultimately make it happen.

I talk quite a bit with companies around connecting up the strategy

with execution, cuz very often c.

And partners know where they're trying to get to, but sometimes there's a bit

of a disconnect between that strategy piece and the execution piece of what's

actually happening on the ground.

And I always come back to a fantastic expression a great mentor and friend

of mine had, which was, you know, whenever he, he was thinking about

things, it was always, you know, talking to friends in low places.

And not suggesting people alone, but just are you really covering all of your bases?

Are you really talking to everybody across the business?

Because if you haven't got the execution joined up with the strategy, as you

say, you, you end up with a, with a gap here and not meeting those expectations.

And I think what we see as well is that they often, those people down

the organization, so ops manager for example, they're very influential.

So actually the, the, the exec will listen very carefully to their

input and I think if they're please with the partner's working well,

they'll, they'll clearly share that.

I think if there's challenges, then you could find that at that exact level,

you know, you're not getting a buyin.

Cause actually you've, you've kind missed the fact that somebody low down

is, uh, is not happy with where we are.

I think what you've described for me is the value exchange.

So there needs to be a value exchange between the vendor and the

partner, and and the vendor rather than just being seen as a supplier,

needs to be a vendor partner.

So it needs to be a partnership.

I know it's a bit of a cliche, but that value exchange needs to happen between

the vendor and the partner, but equally within the partner in the sales teams.

The, the, the sellers also need to see the value and the support

teams and the big teams and other commercial teams and technical teams.

So I see that value exchange being between the, the vendor and the partner,

but also within the partner through the various operational roles, and I think

that really speaks to both of the points you made earlier, Steve, in terms of, uh,

you know, what makes a good partnership.

Yeah, I quite agree, Matt, I think, um, you know, the other thing that

we, that we tend to see is that sometimes in that sales organization

that that bind isn't there.

And actually if you go back to the kind of original reason the partnership

was established, you've gotta be really clear as to why that is.

And there can be occasions, I don't mind saying this really, where it just

isn't the right fit for both parties.

So it might be, take Zen's case, you know, we're a premium player in the

market, we offer a great service, but it comes a premium price.

And if, if a partner is out there looking for perhaps more commodity, they just

want a product at a certain price point, then that partnership's perhaps not,

not right for, for, for both parties.

And I think there's nothing wrong with being prepared to admit that

really, and being prepared to walk away and say, Actually it's

not for us, um, on either side.

And, uh, you know, whilst we don't doing that too often, I think there,

there's no harm in being honest about what we're both after and whether it

works for both passe and it doesn't be, be willing to, to walk away.

I think having a robust, uh, I guess position is, is a strength.

I remember in sales and no bid was equally important to bid for an opportunity.

And, and, and you, you tend to have, have an instinctive feeling

when, when it actually, you are the salesperson, the front of opportunity,

whether to bid or no bid, and that's based on whether the fit is there.

And it's a bit like, we've spoken before, like, like a, a good restaurant

has the confidence to have not much on the menu because they know

what their strengths are, and they like to promote their strengths.

I, I see it as, as very similar.

And actually, if the fit is not right, you're wasting everybody's time.

And obviously to your point, Steve, you're not, you're not doing it in all

cases, but having the confidence of being robust to say, This is a fit, or This

isn't a fit, I think it's, it's very valuable so that you're spending time

on opportunities on partnerships that will actually drive the right outcomes.

Yeah.

I think to the point, Matt, about time wasted, I think even the, obviously

the initial bid process where time and effort's being expended, but if you take

it a step further and, and we enter into an agreement that actually isn't in the

best interest of both parties, there's a whole period of engagement, of induction,

of of, of getting up to speed that can be many months, and you, we can burn both

organizations a lot of time and effort.

There's a huge amount of expense that could be, um, invested there.

So I think it is so, so important that you get it right up front and we're very clear

about what we're both enter into and why.

And uh, and I think in most cases that that's, that's done well.

But I think in some cases it can be a, a challenge.

I think that point about time and focus is really critical, isn't it?

Because it's that, Which partners or which vendors do you invest that time

with and do you work closely with?

But also when you look at the breadth of portfolio that many companies are

dealing with, it's pretty complex stuff.

There's a lot going on, you know.

Sales cycles can be quite long and and complicated and, and I think, you know,

there is often a danger of trying to stretch re finite resources too thin.

Certainly something that I've seen with a lot of companies, particularly

they're trying to scale up.

You can't be all things to all people.

And so being really clear on where do we focus our efforts, where

we can have best return, make the best impact, I think is critical.

And that selection of partners sounds, Steve, where you are being quite robust in

terms of what's a good fit, but also, you know, where do you sit in the portfolio?

Because people need enough time in the day to be able to get their heads around the

whole breadth of what they're selling to a sufficient degree as well, don't they?

Yeah, it's quite right, Anna.

I think, um, you know, I used to talk in the past and I don't mind admitting

a, a change of tact here actually.

So, uh, a number of years ago I always used to say to, um, customers,

partners, our, our own people, you know, we need to be a one stop shop.

We need to cater for everybody's requirements, and that way we'll

have the most, um, chance of being successful in being able to

serve all the customers' needs.

Increasingly, I I, I'll look back on that advice and say, actually I was wrong.

Um, I think in, in the age we're in now, the reality is what we see is

there's an ecosystem of typically about half a dozen suppliers that, that

serve a customer's various IT needs.

And I guess there's some debate about how many it actually is, but

I think we see about half a dozen across connectivity, coms, you know,

cloud, um, applications, etcetera.

And um, I think it's really important you are very clear about

what is your strength, where do you, where is your expertise?

And, and if I'm honest, not to get too distracted by the temptation to

end up with a very, very broad product set where you're, you're effective,

the master of nothing, you kind of average it everything, and that's

really quite, I think, a dangerous place to get yourself to these days.

I think you need to be very, very clear about how do you add

value, how do you stand out?

What makes you different so that you both yourself and the customer and the partner

understands that very, very clearly.

I think previously Steve, there was a tendency for partners

wanting to resell everything and be that one stop shop as well.

I think that was almost like a, a pride thing, but I need to

be in control of this customer.

And I think in the world of the, you know, as the partner landscape is

exploding into the ecosystem, and I mean you are talking about six

different partners in the ecosystem, I think, um, some of the analysts

talk about certain layers of SaaS.

When you make a SaaS purchase, there's seven different technologies in there

through APIs and as the market is obviously moving towards ecosystem

and, and, and more cloud, that's gonna be the case in most, in most

projects and most opportunities.

So I think that, uh, if you look at Microsoft, 30% of their sales or

their revenue is transacted through partners, but they reckon 96% of

their business is partner assisted.

So that difference between the 30% and 96% is really down to the ecosystem

influencing and having different types of organizations influencing the ultimate

sale for Microsoft, whether it be consultants, whether it be traditional

resellers, whether it be integrators.

You know, there's a big delta between that 30% and 96% that's actually

being sold through the ecosystem.

Yeah, that's a really useful step.

That, and I think, um, the other thing that we see as well is it's just so

tempting to, uh, go and look at the new and shiny, I call it, and forgive me for

this, but I call it magpie syndrome, where you see something over there that's new

and shiny and you think, Oh, brilliant.

I can enter that market.

I can offer that service.

I can make some additional margin.

But actually often it can be at expense of your core business.

And, um, you take eye off that core business.

And I think particularly right now, you know, the economy's quite challenging.

Um, you know, there's a lot going on.

It's quite uncertain to say the least.

Um, so I think now more than never, it's very, very important you are clear about

what you're good at and, and you focus on that rather than the, the temptation

to get distracted by something that appears new in shiny, but actually can,

can distract from the core business.

I think that's really useful.

I wanna come back a little bit and talk a bit more about the ecosystem and how

you see the partner ecosystem changing.

I think just before we do that, let's dive a little bit more into uh, I guess

what we might call sales activation.

And that really activating your partners, because we're talking a lot

more about, let's get focused, let's be clear on the profile, make sure

that, you know, we are well aligned.

That we're not trying to get, we're not being distracted

by the, by the new and shiny.

But you also taught Steve at the beginning about, You've got all of

that exec engagement, but it's, if it's not happening on the ground,

you're not gonna see the results.

So I'm interested in perhaps, Steve, if you wanted to talk a little bit

about what, what you are doing, and then Matt, I know this is an area that

you are really focused on, um, across a lot of partners and vendors here.

So Steve, what are you, what are you doing to try and get those

partners really activated and turning intention into, into results?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No thanks.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting to just one o'clock

back on this, I think really.

So a few years back, um, we were onboarding quite a lot of new

partners every year, probably about 50 or so partners each year.

And what we were finding was that it, it was taken us quite a long

time to get that partner from signed partner to actually placing business

with us, you know, cases many months.

And, um, teams were getting frustrated.

We, we also found that, you know, we were having orders fail lots more faults.

We were having lots of queries coming to operational teams and sales teams.

It was quite putting quite a lot of load on the teams.

And what we started to realize is we started to track it, is we

weren't doing enough, but from, to invest in that initial onboarding

an induction of the partner.

And I often liken this to, um, a new employee.

You know, you bring a new employee business and some businesses

meant to choose to sit down.

There's a phone, there's a pc, off you go.

Whereas what we find as then is that, you know, we're most successful where

we invest upfront in, uh, really educate and in training that employee.

So we kind of sat down and thought, actually, why is this

any different with our partners?

Why will we not invest the same amount of effort into making sure our partner

really understand our products, our services, how to sell, how to deliver,

how to support, how to manage in life?

So we came up with a, what we call a momentum program, where

we put the partner into a kind of incubation period for three months.

And uh, we use that three months to make sure they understand the teams, they

understand their processes, our systems, our ways of working, how to order, how to

diagnose, how to raise faults, etcetera.

Um, and we've seen a really big improvement in the, the amount of

queries coming to the teams, the speed at which we can get that

partner to a place where they're regularly placing business with us.

I think that, you know, it can be a challenge.

Some partners don't wanna spend 90 days in that incubation period.

They want jump straight to day 60.

And, uh, I think it does require some patience and, and some reinforcement.

But actually this is an important process to really maximize the partnership.

Yeah.

And really what you're saying, Steve, is, is you're trying to change behavior

within the partner, not only in the leadership, but also in in the sellers

as well and, and the support teams.

And, you know, I've got a saying that three times is a, is a habit,

so you wanna really try and drive that successful, repeatable behavior.

And the adoption of of vendor portals in partners is only about 17%.

90% of that is deal rage rather than enablement.

And lots and lots of vendors do lots and lots of enablement online.

And from, from our experience, from traditional enablement programs, less than

10% of the sellers actually get activated.

And there's a number of reasons for that.

And I think one of the reasons is that enablement is fairly

open ended with little metrics.

There's little visibility, there's little tracking, measuring and

monitoring between the vendor, the partner leadership, and the seller.

So it tends to sort like happen in a dark room if it happens at all.

So where we try and help the partners and, and the vendors be

successful is, is really to Anna's question, is sales activation.

And, and really if you think of competency as skills, knowledge plus behavior, you

can improve your skills and learn new knowledge from your vendor, but it's

putting it into practice that really is the right behavior to make it successful.

And that whole driving successful, repeatable behavior to win

business, that's, I believe the, the magic source in true activation.

Enablement is an open ended activity, but what activation does is actually

drive sales and drive real business.

And you do that by having a golden thread of transparency,

visibility, between the vendor.

The partner leadership teams and the sellers and, and actually you don't

just send sellers to a training course or show them an online video and

expect them to be truly activated.

As partner leadership you need to follow through and make sure

that that enablement is used.

In the fabric of the day-to-day sales motions to win business.

Because, because a lot of enablement is done in a dark room

siloed, and there's no tracking, measuring, measuring and monitoring.

We believe to really activate sellers, you need to drive that successful

behavior and have that buy-in between the partner leadership and the sellers.

Um, I could go on a long, a lot longer, Anna, as you know, on this

subject, but that's my short version.

Well, we can dig into it a little bit more, but I think just to add

perhaps a bit of neuroscience to it, that we are creating new habits here.

And whilst a simple habit, like maybe putting your keys in a particular

place when you walk in the house so you don't forget them or can't, you know,

so you can find them when you go out, you might only need to do that a few

times to start to form a reasonable, a reasonably well embedded habit.

But when we're talking about complex habits and complex repeatable behaviors,

which is what we're talking about here across the whole partner network, actually

those, those take months because you are building new neural pathways in the brain.

And that that takes a long time to embed.

It's like, you know, you're creating a new little footpath through the woods.

Well the next time you come to walk that footpath, you can't

see where you were treading.

So it takes a lot of walking that same footpath to turn it into a

footpath that you could easily find.

And you know, what we really wanna do is, and I appreciate my analogy now,

is going to get very environmentally unfriendly, but you wanna turn that

footpath into a big motorway, um, that, you know, your brain is naturally gonna

just pick up and fast track through.

And so that takes time.

And Matt, to your point, it, it doesn't happen overnight by saying, Watch

this or, or do something academic.

You've got to be able to transfer it into that practice

and do it time and time again.

And generally there has to be a, what's in it for me?

What's the benefit of me doing actually what's quite tiring

from a brain perspective?

Cause our brains like to take the shortcuts and the known paths.

So what's, what's in it for me to make the effort, but also it does take

leadership to reinforce it, to embed it.

The more those things are embedded in processes and structures and

systems, then the more that will help us keep on the correct path.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think to to, to Matt's point earlier about reporting, it's quite

interesting actually, cuz we, uh, it's part of the momentum work, we

did some reports and dashboarding.

So we actually tracked the calls that were coming to the team and who was raising

those calls within the partner business so we could actually see if the training

we were delivering was sticking and, and if there were particular individuals

that were struggling a little bit more.

Um, so we could actually sort of track that a bit more closely.

The only thing we found as well was that, you know, some of our partners,

yes, they embraced it really easily.

Others it was more difficult, you know, the sales team were like,

I don't be out out the business for a day doing this and training.

So we had to adapt ourselves a bit.

So for example, we um, you know, we went along to their sales team

meeting and kind of got ourselves a little slot and sort of started

from there and built some momentum.

Or we just took the guys out for some lunch.

Again, started small just to get the buy in to what we were trying to do.

So I think it's, you know, really simple, obvious things, but I think things

that, that really make a difference, the training on its own isn't enough.

You've also gotta build a relationship with that, with that sales team.

Um, another example was we actually sat in the offices, so we just sat in there.

In and amongst the people for a few days, um, just to be present, to be

available to answer questions, which was really quite a powerful way of, um, uh,

getting the buy-in from, from the teams.

I think you pick up on a couple of important things around how people

learn in that as well, Steve, which is that, you know, that little and often.

Is much better generally at reinforcing, it helps to build the knowledge.

We can only take in so much a time anyway.

So actually just spending a short amount of time covering something, but covering

it well in a way that's gonna resonate is often more effective than we're gonna put

everybody in a room for a couple of days.

But also just thinking about how people then pick up on some of

those things and building those relationships, because oftentimes people

learn by doing, and salespeople in particular tend to learn by doing it.

It's quite an active, you know, we're learning on the job all the time.

So, you know, being present and around and being able to answer questions in

the moment when somebody can immediately apply the answer that they've got,

again, helps to reinforce it because next time hopefully they'll remember

that answer and do the same thing again when they're faced with a similar

question or a similar situation.

So that sort of on the job in the moment, um, is also really effective.

If you can find ways to, to feed into that.

Yeah, no, we found it, as I say, and we found it a very effective way

of, um, of surpassing the partners.

Another one, again, on the same thread was, um, actually

going out and visits together.

So we've actually been out with our partners on joint visit in some cases,

you know, being the, the expert in the room, not necessarily Zen represented,

but just the expert in the room to try and help the, uh, partners.

I think you're quite right.

It's, it's lit off often is, in our case, being more effective than a kind of

traditional sitting down in a classroom.

And it works for some, but I think for others they prefer that, that different

bit more informal approach, I guess.

Yeah.

And, and people consume in a very different way nowadays,

through even five, 10 years ago.

People are very time poor.

Um, they're, they're multitasking or trying to, and I think

you need to make it easy.

You need to make it accessible and easy to consume.

And that whole, breaking it down into bite size pieces is how, how

most of the sellers that engage with us want, want to learn.

And we've, we've talked about learning by discovery.

Now Learning by discovery is is really taking the knowledge and skills

you've learned and applying it in a real case study, a real application.

And once sellers do that successfully, they'll repeat that behavior because

they've seen it drives an outcome for them, because it drives an

outcome for, for their customer.

And, and partner sellers are being bombarded with information from

the vendors, you know, latest and greatest shiny technology and you

know, their day to day time really should be focused on converting

opportunities, winning opportunities, but also they have to do a lot of this

sifting through all the information.

So the onus is on, is on the, on the vendors to present it in a way that's

easily consumable but also repeatable.

That's a good point.

That as well in the small, small size chunks.

I remember when we, uh, did the original momentum program, we, we created a

learning hub where we made the materials available to download in, in, you

know, PDFs, in webinars, et cetera.

And one of bits of feedback we got was that some of the sessions were kind

of 30 minutes and people were saying to us, Look, we want smaller chunks.

We want five to 10 minutes maximum kind amounts of content because

that's the kind of reasonable amount of time to spend aside in front

of your PC listening to content.

You know, when we're getting to 30, 45 minutes, the feedback was, you know,

we just can't, It was a big barrier to.

Um, it is just the size of that content, so it's, I guess it's about being

smart about how you break that up.

Absolutely, and, and then the challenge is how you thread everything

together to make sure that you're actually getting to the end point

and there's actually value contained.

Because if you've only got 10 minutes, there's not a lot of time necessarily

to, to, convey or convert somebody over.

So it's how you thread all those bite size pieces together

is really, really important.

And in a way that.

That salespeople see the value, like I said earlier, easier to

consume, but also you want them to be motivated to get to the end point.

And the, the only way you're gonna do that is if they see that value and

it comes down to that value exchange.

You know, partners need to be ready, winning and able to be enabled.

But also that, you know, within partnership leadership, it's not

application, it's delegation, it's following up, it's asking.

The, the, the change in behavior in sales teams Monday morning,

commit calls, et cetera, cetera.

You've gotta really, really feed it into, this is part by working day,

whether it's an email or a 10 minute bite size enablement and activation piece,

but you really have to try and weave it into the fabric of everyone's day.

And we all know that everyone's days is very tight in terms

of what they have to achieve.

You know, you're quite around.

I think.

I think what we found as well, it's um, it's constantly evolving.

So it's a kind of never, it's a never ending process of evolution.

I think we, you know, you never kinda get it perfect.

You gotta constantly kind review it and adapt and change.

I think the whole move to hybrid working is again, caused the

catalyst for us to really rethink the way we were doing it previously.

You know, time onsite at partners offices was a great way of

getting some knowledge across.

Whereas these days it's, it's more of a hybrid that's, that's needed.

So I think it's a, it's a constantly evolving picture.

And the word, the word that was really.

In my mind, as you were both talking, there is about being relevant to

the, to the individual as well as to the, to the partner as a whole.

Because I often think about these things in terms of must, should, and might.

So what must somebody know and be able to do?

And then what should they be able to?

And what might they be able to do in, in certain situations or certain contexts.

And so, you know, that bite size needs to be relevant to the individual and

they need to understand why is it.

Why is this relevant to me?

How's it gonna help me to make my target or to be more

efficient in how I make my target?

But I think there's a couple of other topics for us to talk about in this, uh,

in this conversation that I, I wanna dig into as well in the time we got available.

But I think there's some, some really good takeaways, I think just in, in

this part of the conversation for, um, for vendors and for partners to really

think about what are they focusing on.

And I think, you know, what we're saying is it's not about taking

shortcuts, it's about focusing on doing the right things, right.

And some of those things will take time, but if you're focusing on the

right things, you are going to be more effective and more efficient.

You, it's that go slow to go fast kind of mindset, isn't it?

That I think there's a few really good tips in there that we can,

we can take away from there.

So moving into, just thinking a bit more about that ecosystem, because you both

raised, I think, a, a really interesting point around the idea of the one stop shop

not necessarily being the most effective for vendor or for partner these days,

trying to avoid the magpie syndrome and, and really drilling down and focusing

on what are you really good at, where can you really differentiate and, and

have a big impact in, in the market?

So let's talk a little bit more about what's changing in that ecosystem

and how, how it's affecting, how it's affecting the landscape.

Steve, do you wanna talk a little bit about what you're seeing at Zen?

Yeah.

So I think, um, as I said earlier, I think, I think, you know, we

typically see now businesses looking to work with a smaller number of

partners, experts in their field.

I think one thing that is interesting is, I've heard this term a lot recently,

the coopetition, you know, this notion of working together with the competitors,

which interestingly isn't a new, isn't a new absolute new terminology.

You go back right back to nineties, it was being talked about then.

So, um, but it's been, uh, definitely a pull back out again.

And I think, um, there is increasingly, uh, you know, I think you look at it from

the customer's perspective, this notion in the past where, you know, you end up

in a blame game is often used in the past.

You know, the becomes provider, blames the connectivity provider

who blames the cloud provider.

I just don't think that's, um, tolerated any longer.

I think customers have, have really got to a stage now wher they're just not

interested in that, that discussion.

I think as competitors we have to find ways of working together

to give the customer solution.

And I think, I think providers are recognizing that now, you know, the

voice provides a recognizing that they've gotta work with, sort of

like ourselves to, to make that that solution work Similar security guys

are recognizing they've gotta work with MSPs to make that harmoniously deliver

the right solution for the customer.

So I think it's a.

It's an area where we're seeing some change.

And I think my, I guess my best example of it, um, which is a huge topic in its

own right and is, is climate change.

Um, we've done some good work recently where we've been working together

with suppliers, competitors to actually, um, try and tackle what is

obviously a global, a global problem.

And there's a real appetite to work together, to share best practice to

realize that actually Robin is together.

We, you know, we're never gonna make a.

Meaningful change if we don't help each other.

And it is a huge topic, but an interesting one.

Um, are you seeing a shift then in that appetite to work together?

Steve?

Yeah, definitely say so, Anna.

Yeah if I go back even just a few years ago, I think, um, probably pre

covid actually, that there was, there was less willingness to do that.

You know, we're all fighting over market share, We're all fighting

over the customers, you know, we all wanna grab as much as we can.

I mean, in reality, it's a massive market, you know?

Um, we provide IT services into, into millions of businesses out there.

And in truth, there's plenty of space for everybody.

Um, I, I don't think this notion of having to compete in such a ferous

way is necessarily needed, and not always in interest of the customer,

which I think got remember that point.

It's, uh, you know, we've got a business ad that's, um, trying to get the

right solution for their needs and, uh, if we all work together, we can

give that customer a great solution.

I think if we fight it with each other, it's much more difficult.

So I've definitely seen the step change there.

And uh, as I say, climate change is a great example where more than ever

we've gotta work in, in partnership.

I think you've raised a good point there, Steve, is that with

traditional vendor channels there, all the partners were competing.

But more the philosophy as the ecosystem is we are in it together and we can

win together and we can work together.

And from my part, coming from a software company, we've always worked

with other parties using software API.

So, so by definition, uh, getting the APIs to talk to each other, we, we, we actually

are already working with what could be seen as, as competitors in the, in the, in

the past because they particularly, they feel a particular technology in the stack.

And what the o what the customer's buying is a, is is an overall solution

that's made up of multiple layers of, of technology, to your point,

data and voice being, being two elements in a lot of opportunities.

And I think also having a presence on the internet.

I read an article last week that said, talked about dark social, that said

that 70% of awareness of your company happens in the dark, that you're not

aware of, you're only probably aware and are visible of, of 30% of the

effective social media on getting your story out there, getting noticed.

So when it's an important project like sustainability, I think there's a lot

of visibility of what you're doing out there on the, on the internet already.

Yeah, it's interesting, um, Matt, I think another thing that we say

to your point is use customers are so much my inform these days.

You know, we find customers arriving at the door with lots

and lots of knowledge, lots of.

Search, you know, they're well informed in some cases.

So, it reaches a stage where, you know, they recognize that they need multiple

partners to deliver their solution.

Um, they already know that before, um, that they've made that initial inquiry

so that, what they're not looking for is for you to be critiquing the competition

or, you know, doing anything like that.

I think they're looking for you to, to hear how you can work together, to, to

deliver the, to deliver what they need.

It's interesting how we're seeing that ecosystem evolving.

And obviously particularly in the current climate, and, you know, we've talked about

this before, the increased potential in merger and acquisition activity, and that

is another dimension, I think, in terms of this ecosystem that we're talking about.

Um, so what do you, what are you both seeing, seeing in terms

of M and A activity and, and how's that got you thinking?

Yeah.

No, the M and A activities certainly really picked up in the last year I

think, in terms of sector, I think we're heading towards the stop sell and the

switch off of the copper network and.

It's a massive change for traditional resellers who've, um, you know,

made a living from, um, lines and calls and, uh, copper based

services for many, many years.

And and many of them are, are up for the, for the change, but, but, in truth amount.

And, um, you know, they've reached a phase where it now is the time

to, um, to perhaps cash in and, uh, you know, it's take advantage of a

business that built up over many years.

And I think what that's doing though is creating a dynamic where, you know,

in Zen's case, we can suddenly have a situation where we've got four or five

partners who've been acquired by a bigger entity where we have no relationship with.

Um, they can, you know, I think the analogy I've used previously, that

they arrive at the front door in an oil tanker, um, a very large one.

Um, and, uh, you know, we don't have that relationship exec level or further down

the organization, understand the customer.

We don't understand the customer base, what sectors are in, what portfolio

they've got, what expertise they've got.

So it's a, it's a very big change and I think it does require us to almost go back

to the very beginning of the conversation we have about, Okay, well what is the.

What's the strategy for the business?

Is there, is there um, a part there?

Is there, are we aligned in terms of our views?

Um, actually what we do, do we need to do from activation perspective?

What levels of knowledge does this partner have?

You know, where are the gaps?

How can we address those gaps?

It requires a complete reset in a way.

And I think In truth, in that scenario, you could either end up in a situation

where you know, you've tremendously gained because you've got access to a much bigger

customer base, a much bigger product set.

You know that, that there's a lot to be gained, but equally there's a real

threat there because if you can't quickly establish that alignment and

engagement, then you'll very quickly be, um, be removed from the equation.

You know, you'll be, um, I guess a casualty of the M and A process.

So, uh, I think it's a, you know, it's a really interesting topic, this, as to

how this plays out over the coming years as both opportunity and certainly threat.

Would you say, Steve, you have to act quickly in that scenario?

Yeah, definitely Matt.

Yeah, very quickly I think, and not be afraid by the way, if you're not

getting attraction to um, you know, really kinda musclely weigh in.

Um, I know we've certainly, um, had to do that on some occasions where

we've been approaching exacts via LinkedIn and another method just

to make sure we get some air time.

So, uh, yeah, time is of the essence and, um, as I say, be being really clear about

where you fit, where you can add value.

What is their strategy and direction?

Um, yeah, really important.

Because from a sales activation perspective, which is where we're coming

from, is, is almost like a mass induction.

So, so the, the taking on of a new salesperson partner, there's normally very

little formal framework there ready, so when, when the person turns up on their

first day, there's not always, unless it's a larger company, a formal induction

process, it's relatively informal.

And, and you know that, that new seller, I get asked, Where's your list of accounts?

Bring it over as well.

But in the M and A scenario, it, it's, it's, that on mass, right?

Because you might have a brand new sales team.

Where your technology is not something they've been experienced before, they

don't necessarily understand the value.

So, so we, we see it from a sales activation perspective, like mass

induction, you have to act quickly and you have to be flexible, uh, be,

because what will happen is, is if one team's enabled and the other one isn't

enabled or activated, then it goes down to the lowest common denominator and

to your point, you might get excluded as a vendor in their portfolio.

You know, we've, we've done some cases where we've been working with

the partner for 20 years and, and then we almost feel like a, you know,

well, they've been very loyal to us.

You know, we've got, we've got a long standing relationship.

I think in truth, um, that doesn't mean anything.

Once acquisition activities took place, you know, at the end of the day, the,

the, uh, that, that is a previous relationship, we're now entering a

new relationship and, uh, you know, you've gotta start from scratch.

And the fact that you've been working together for a long time,

um, as I say, that's a, that's a, a relationship that's been and gone

and it's time to, to, to start again.

And I think it's, it's quite easy.

I think.

To get a bit complacent in those situations and think, Oh yeah, of course

they're gonna use us Of course, the new entity will understand the value.

I've certainly seen that complacency at times where, um, I've had to kind

of remind the guys that, uh, we really need to move at pace now and, uh, get

established in that new relationship.

Yeah.

And often the people that you've got the relationships with are

not necessarily particularly the senior ones who are going to stay.

You know, if they've been shareholders in the acquired business, this

may be their exit strategy to, to move on or retire or whatever.

So a sort of fast paced thing sometimes, but I suppose I was thinking, you know,

using your oil tanker analogy, Steve, it's, it's like the oil tanker appears

to move very slowly, but the crew on board the oil tanker are probably

moving pretty fast and, and so you don't necessarily see all of that movement

just looking at it from, from the dock.

I think without wishing to drag out the analogy, uh, Anna, I think, uh,

we need to jump in our speed boats and get over there pretty quickly,

um, to establish the lay of the land.

And you're quite right.

I think we, we see scenarios where the acquired entity will take the

time and understand the, the business really well, and, um, understand

the expertise and the customer base.

I think that that tends to work better.

We, we see some scenarios where very, very quickly the, the Barretts has moved out.

Some of the key people leave, the cultural fits not there.

And, and, and in truth, the acquisition doesn't really go as

well as they they'd like it to.

We, yeah, we can end up being, providing insight and expertise

because they just haven't taken the time to figure it out themselves.

You know, they're actually calling on our own knowledge of the partner to,

to be able to help them understand effectively what they've bought

and, um, what assets they've got.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's back to the, um, you know, patience, I think will be

the, the, the word, um, whether, whether it's training or whether it's M and

Yeah, I think that diving in your speed boat to get there is, is probably not a

bad analogy for a lot of these things.

You know, that go taking time and being patient, but we need to be in the right

place in order to be patient, don't we?

We need to get to where we need to get to and, and then

figure out the lie of the land.

Think about, you know, what's gonna take time.

We can't, we can't make the shortcuts, but we can be more efficient and more

effective at how we, how we get there.

Whether that's around that activation, whether that's around, uh, moving quickly

to understand the new landscape of, um, of an acquisition or a broader ecosystem.

So there's lots to take away out of this, uh, out of this conversation.

By way of wrapping up, what tips or thoughts would you like

to leave our listeners with?

Yeah, I think we've ended up really where we started, which is the people are

the biggest variable in organizations, whether it's from an M and A or a

driving successful behavior perspective.

But being able to be flexible, but having the patience to understand that, that

to drive successful behavior, you have to have the right type of activation in

place because people are the big variable.

In an M and A perspective, you don't have a aligned saying people culture

and have a value against it in the spreadsheet of due d due diligence.

So very much, I think people is the big variable.

Yeah, I think I, I think we covered lots of ground, but I think, um, you

know, investing in that partnership in the first place, so at an exec level,

you know, let's make sure we've got alignment, you know, we're very clear on,

on what the, what what would looks like.

What does success look like for this partnership.

Let's not forget about the people below that exact level

actually who are making it happen.

Um, you know, to Matt's point, that sales team, you're not gonna have

a successful partnership without getting some, some traction there

and some momentum and there's lots of businesses fighting for their attention.

So, uh, you know, make sure you, you go about that in the right way.

And I think finally just the patience point, I think

it's, uh, it's all too easy.

I think just in business generally, just rush into things.

And, um, and sometimes it's native, you know, the m a scenario where you

need to move quick, but I think there's other times where it pays to be.

A bit more patient, you know, a bit more, bit more measured in your approach

to get the, to get the best result.

I guess the two are not mutually exclusive are they?

Being fast moving, but also measured in terms of, of what you do, which

I think particularly applies in that M and A activity, doesn't it?

Steve, Matt, thank you both very much for, for coming back

on the, uh, on the podcast.

You're welcome.

Yeah, you're very welcome.

Thank you again to Steve and Matt.

I come away from the conversation with a wealth of ideas and insights from

their experiences, and hope you do too.

Steve's oil tanker at the front door analogy definitely resonated for me,

and thinking how we move fast in these situations is key, as I expect we'll

see further m and a activity ahead.

For me, a big takeaway and something I'm often talking about with clients is focus.

Being clear on what you're good at and what you can achieve with

the resources that you have.

I think this is gonna be a North Star for many partnerships over the coming months.

Really focus on where you can win and what you can achieve together, and be

crystal clear on what that means in terms of what you're not gonna do as well.

So that's it for this episode.

Join me next time when we'll be exploring how to recruit the right

sales people, which in this war for talent is a hot and critical topic.