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211 - How To Handle This Wild Job Market
Episode 211 • 13th December 2021 • Meta-Cast • Bob Galen & Josh Anderson
00:00:00 00:42:54

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You know what's happening out there in the job market, right? IT. IS. CUH-RAY-ZEEE!!!

The supply and demand situation boiled over and average salaries for new jobs are leapfrogging previous norms. What should you do about this?

Bob and Josh talk through ways to approach this unprecedented event from both sides of the table, as an employee wondering if I should jump ship and as a leader who is managing a team of folks that know what's happening out there. What are you doing about this situation? Let's discuss!!!

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Transcripts

Josh:

I did say soliloquy

Bob:

effortlessly.

Bob:

You didn't.

Bob:

What do you mean?

Bob:

I hope it, I hope it hurts.

Bob:

No soliloquy.

Bob:

I hope it.

Bob:

Oh, say it five more times.

Bob:

Pull that out of your ass.

Bob:

Just keep pulling it out.

Bob:

Eventually

Josh:

soliloquy to more.

Bob:

Are you practicing in?

Josh:

And the last one, this is a little gray.

Josh:

Thank you.

Josh:

Are you no pain?

Josh:

Are you paying?

Josh:

All right.

Josh:

No pain.

Josh:

Bob, the job market is insane right now.

Josh:

Did you know that?

Josh:

And

Bob:

I've noticed that well, there's what I see that what the hashtag great.

Bob:

Uh, what resignation?

Bob:

Yeah, so there's the resignation stuff going on, right?

Bob:

People are getting more more negotiations, I guess, with, with working from home.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And, and, you know, perks of flexibility.

Bob:

I have wondered about salary.

Bob:

So salary is going through the roof as

Josh:

well.

Josh:

Definitely going through the roof, the average that I'm

Josh:

seeing in my limited view.

Josh:

So your mileage may vary and see it greater or smaller, depending on where our

Josh:

listeners are is like a 20 to 30 K bump just in base salaries for existing roles.

Bob:

So in the past, in the

Josh:

past year, six months, so your max is really ramped up.

Josh:

So this year, yeah, this year in 2021, it really ramped

Bob:

up.

Bob:

Is that just competition, driving pricing?

Josh:

I believe so, given that you can now get, so like, there are people that have

Josh:

left the company that I'm at, that are working for a California based company,

Josh:

remotely getting a California salary.

Josh:

Oh, wow.

Bob:

Because that's so okay.

Bob:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I bet it's multi-factored and I bet geography.

Bob:

Yes,

Josh:

because it doesn't

Bob:

matter as much now.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But, but some companies are adjusting their salaries though.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Some companies, some California companies are adjusting their

Bob:

salaries based on your geography.

Bob:

Some of them are getting slammed for that process.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And some of them are, are not doing that.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So I,

Josh:

I'm not sure of all of the macro economic vehicles that

Josh:

have created this situation.

Josh:

What I want to make sure is that our listeners know what's happening and have

Josh:

an opportunity to thoughtfully think about how this plays into any decision

Josh:

that they might make, because you might be finding out or hearing about friends

Josh:

or coworkers that just left the job that they've been at for five years.

Josh:

And they got an instant 30, 35 K.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

You know?

Josh:

So, so that should lead you to question, what should I do?

Josh:

What's the, what's the right answer.

Josh:

I've even seen people that have left and come right back.

Bob:

Oh really?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And why, what just enemy random sampling.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

So what, what was the general feeling that,

Josh:

you know, they left for the money and realize that the money

Josh:

didn't mean everything and they appreciated the company that they

Josh:

were with and decided to go back.

Josh:

I don't know if they came back at that higher pay rate or something.

Josh:

I assume so, but I'm not sure

Bob:

probably negotiated something.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

On the return, but they came back.

Bob:

So something was going on in there in the dynamic.

Bob:

So, so what do you want to, you want to just explore?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

To me, I, I, I want to look at it from two angles.

Josh:

One is someone who knows this or is hearing this for the first

Josh:

time and says, holy crap, I should leave my current job and go get.

Josh:

More money somewhere else.

Josh:

Not so fast, I think is the message that I want to send is be thoughtful and

Josh:

think about all of the variables that are out there that make a job great.

Josh:

Then I will look at it from the other side of, if you are a leader of people, right?

Josh:

What are ways you can, should respond to what's happening in the market?

Josh:

So starting with oh, okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Oh, I like the two for a second.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

All right.

Josh:

So as a developer, QA engineer, scrum master, whatever is someone

Josh:

on your typical scrum team and you hear this and like maybe one of your

Josh:

friends just, just left to go to a job and their pay bump was crazy.

Josh:

And they're like, dude, you got to do this.

Josh:

What should you do?

Josh:

What should you think about?

Bob:

I think there's some, I mean, general reactions to me is I'm you

Bob:

and I have different generations for hiring and staying and things like.

Bob:

I think one thing is it used to be staying with the company was a prime directive.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It was important.

Bob:

Like being a job, hopper was a bad thing.

Bob:

I think that's probably flipped nowadays.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, so loyalty and the worry that it, you know, sort of be how your,

Bob:

the perception is has changed.

Bob:

So that I think that should be like a very minor consideration.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Maybe a little bit of a consideration, like, like hopping around,

Bob:

staying somewhat placed less than a year and hopping around.

Bob:

I saw something the other day, someone tweeted that there were people who were.

Bob:

I forgot there was a name for it where they took two because they're virtual.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

They took two full-time jobs.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

They were getting paid for two full time jobs and they were

Bob:

looking for a third full-time job.

Bob:

And it, but I think, I think that might catch up with you, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like staying somewhere like playing games or being dishonest.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Or hopping around every three months or something like that.

Bob:

We'll probably come back to haunt you from a career, but

Josh:

just like a life perspective, just wearing

Bob:

yourself down.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I don't, I think character matters a little bit.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Loyalty does still matter character how you can maybe I'll

Bob:

call it how you conduct yourself.

Bob:

Like yeah.

Bob:

You know, you know what I mean?

Bob:

But I wasn't trying to argue that I was trying to flip it and say,

Bob:

don't worry about that stuff so much.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Again, we're from different generations.

Josh:

So we see it a little bit.

Bob:

Absolutely different.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

you know, what else from a, I put up picky guy.

Bob:

we've talked about this before.

Bob:

I think you remember vaguely.

Josh:

So what I'd like to talk about is a thought process I could take as a

Josh:

person in the seat to figure out, okay.

Josh:

Is it time for me to go find something else or do I stay here if I stay here?

Josh:

Should I talk to my boss?

Josh:

How do I talk about the pay difference?

Josh:

The pay gap that's out there.

Josh:

What,

Bob:

before we go there though.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And then shoot it down.

Bob:

But the icky guy has 400.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

So that is a Venn diagram.

Josh:

That's up on Bob's

Bob:

screen.

Bob:

It's a Venn diagram.

Bob:

It's called an Iki gai icky guy.

Bob:

It's a Japanese metaphor.

Bob:

And it talks about like, you're trying to get to the essence of

Bob:

what, what should I be doing?

Bob:

And it has four dimensions.

Bob:

It's doing what you love, it's doing what you're good at.

Bob:

It's doing what you can be paid for, which is what we're talking about.

Bob:

And then doing what the world needs, like making a difference in the world.

Bob:

So if I put on an icky guy mindset, then this is one quarter, right.

Bob:

Money is one quarter.

Bob:

And so what I'm trying to suggest to medic hazards, and it may

Bob:

not land in, shoot me down.

Bob:

This may, maybe an old guy, not a Nike guy, but an old guy discussion.

Bob:

But I think it's important.

Bob:

Like, do you love what you do, right?

Bob:

Are you good at what you do?

Bob:

Like you could jump for 20 K and get fired because you aren't self-aware

Bob:

of what you're good at you.

Bob:

Like, you could jump into a fire, right.

Bob:

From a skillset perspective.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So sort of being self-aware as part of this.

Bob:

I think nowadays generationally people, you can, you can get.

Bob:

You get benefits or you get good feelings.

Bob:

I know money matters, but working for like the, the gates foundation, like

Bob:

doing stuff that affects people's lives, might it's, it's intangible from a

Bob:

money point of view, but it's giving you, it's giving you solid feelings.

Bob:

Like I'm contributing back.

Bob:

I'm not just, I'm not just sucking money from the world.

Bob:

Well, so I'm wondering if an icky guy view, like running it through

Bob:

four lenses, instead of just the money lens would be helpful.

Josh:

So I'll, I'll provide a quick retort,

Bob:

so it's not going to land.

Bob:

That's fine.

Bob:

I

Josh:

want to make it quick so we can get on the other stuff.

Josh:

I think the number of places where you really do feel good type stuff

Josh:

is pretty low companies that really.

Josh:

I have complete intent to make a difference in the world.

Josh:

I think unfortunately there are very few, right.

Josh:

You look at some of the more successful companies that are out there and people

Josh:

like to invest in the boring things.

Josh:

That's what investors like, because they know what's going to be there.

Josh:

They know what's always going to exist and maybe it was boring.

Josh:

Somebody who didn't.

Josh:

So there's a, there's a lot of companies are out there that

Josh:

build software just to make money.

Josh:

And yeah, it makes the user's life better and easier because they can

Josh:

do it on the software instead of a spreadsheet or a piece of paper,

Josh:

but net making the world better.

Josh:

I think there's unfortunately very

Bob:

few there.

Bob:

So is there a lens then beyond I want to make as much money as I

Bob:

can and get as much prestige as I can and fill my ego as I can.

Bob:

So gimme, gimme, gimme feed me, feed me, feed me.

Bob:

Is there a lens that.

Bob:

Is there any other lens other than that, that, that people should be looking at?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Well, to me, I, and I'm not being yet.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah, no, there's, there's, there's reasons why people desire to make

Josh:

money that maybe isn't just pure greed.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

Maybe they're trying to build and grow a family.

Josh:

They want to adopt, they want to be able to give back.

Josh:

They want to be able to do time

Bob:

money.

Bob:

my question is it's a mindset.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

I'm not anti-money or mindset.

Bob:

is there another, is it multi-faceted or is that the primary lens

Bob:

that we should be talking about?

Bob:

to me

Josh:

it depends on your point in your career.

Bob:

That is a factor in the lucky guy.

Bob:

Right.

Josh:

That's what I've seen is that my primary focus has shifted over

Josh:

the decades that I've been in mine.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

So I use it.

Bob:

So in the early phases of my career, yeah, my achy guy was very much about paid for.

Bob:

And good at, and a little bit of love.

Josh:

I even did things I wasn't good at.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So there's, self-awareness comes into play, right?

Bob:

Like what, what are you good at?

Bob:

What are your strengths and what are your weaknesses?

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

My, my icky guy he's shifted.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

I, I, I intentionally took a new role in something that I never had done before.

Josh:

I bet on myself.

Josh:

I thought I could do it because I viewed it as a stepping

Josh:

stone to where I wanted to get.

Josh:

Yeah.

Bob:

So why don't we stay there?

Bob:

Why don't we stay in that demographic?

Bob:

Because you and I are probably,

Josh:

we are old.

Josh:

We are old.

Josh:

So, so yeah.

Josh:

So you're in the first five, seven years a year.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

Career.

Josh:

One of the things that my very first boss told me that I regret valuing as

Josh:

he instructed me to do was the value of the people that you work with.

Josh:

And he really tried, tried to get me to, to place a monetary value.

Josh:

On that his was $15,000.

Josh:

He thought beating on a team of people that he liked was worth $15,000.

Josh:

And that was 20 plus years ago when that happened.

Josh:

But that's how he tried to navigate that was he put a real dollar amount on

Josh:

it and he wanted me to buy same thing.

Josh:

Did you buy that at that age?

Josh:

No.

Josh:

Yeah, but I do now because I've because I've worked places where

Josh:

I didn't like the people and I understood what that felt like.

Josh:

And then I've worked places where I love the people and I understood that feeling.

Josh:

And that for me means a

Bob:

lot.

Bob:

So that's, I'm proposing that we reframe this and say everyone's

Bob:

career is in three thirds.

Bob:

So first, third, second, third, third, third, right.

Bob:

First third is like, so let's say 15 years per third.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Something like that.

Bob:

So that's, that's first, let's just talk about the first 15 years your career.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Which is sort of like, so it's a little bit more than eight.

Bob:

I think for that, at least speaking for me and when I was there and

Bob:

I think it's still relevant.

Bob:

It's you need to be growing as you need to be accelerating and challenging

Bob:

yourself as much as you possibly can.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

You need to be somewhat greedy and get well, when, no matter what your paradigm

Bob:

is, whether you're a family person or adoptions or whatnot, but that's that

Bob:

first third is where you're learning.

Bob:

You're gaining critical challenges.

Bob:

You're learning a lot challenges, but you're also accelerating.

Bob:

Like you may, you may dead end in a accompany very often.

Bob:

You, you can be under appreciated in the company.

Bob:

So you have to be sort of hopping around, hopping around for new opportunities,

Bob:

new challenges and salary acceleration.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And, and in a traditional market, not where there's this like recent, almost

Josh:

blind bump that every position gets.

Josh:

I think your early decision.

Josh:

On roles you take and the salary you accept, define

Josh:

what your future south can be.

Bob:

The one that's what you're accelerating.

Bob:

So you're setting, you're investing the first third.

Bob:

If you think about it, this way is investing is, is establishing

Bob:

a platform for how to use springboard into the second thing.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And the second third is, is probably more, it's still acceleration,

Bob:

but sh you're not learning.

Bob:

You may be learning different things like technology.

Bob:

That's talking about technology.

Bob:

You're not going to be learning technology.

Bob:

Typically in the, in the next 15 years, you might be learning

Bob:

management or leadership or architecture or something like that.

Bob:

So it's, it's almost like a springboard springboard for one.

Bob:

And then, and then your springboard is going to be, can

Bob:

I accelerate in my new persona?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Now how good of a leader am I, or how good of an architect am I?

Bob:

And, and some people will plateau there and then some people

Bob:

accelerate, but you want to sort of accelerate in the first one.

Bob:

Is this model working the way?

Bob:

Yeah, yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It's, it's just that there are roles that I accepted where I, I know I

Josh:

could have pushed harder on, on pay.

Josh:

And so then my next job and the salary there was based on what I made before.

Josh:

So you kind of set the bar pretty early and then you progress off of that

Josh:

because that's always a reference point.

Josh:

So the,

Bob:

the loyalty I had, so I kicked myself looking at the curves today,

Bob:

versus when I was curving across those, those three sort of areas, because one,

Bob:

I would stay with a company for 3, 4, 5, Seven years and, and they weren't

Bob:

accelerating the way I could if I laughed.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And now you can do that.

Bob:

So, so I was, I probably, it wasn't my capability.

Bob:

It was literally got in my way.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Seeing value in people.

Bob:

Got it.

Bob:

And got in my way.

Bob:

I wish I would've had a today minus.

Bob:

Back then.

Bob:

I wish I could.

Bob:

It wasn't just me though.

Bob:

I mean, people wouldn't hire you, right.

Bob:

You couldn't navigate that.

Josh:

I, I got in trouble from my parents when I said I was living my, my first job.

Josh:

They were like, you cannot do that.

Josh:

You are making a huge mistake.

Josh:

Exactly.

Josh:

Go back and get that job.

Josh:

And I just said, no, like, this is how I view it as the best

Josh:

way to progress my, my career.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

Where I want to go.

Josh:

Now they, you know, we're teachers.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

So teachers, you basically sign up with a school and especially seventies,

Josh:

eighties, and nineties, right.

Josh:

You, you just kind of stayed with that school because that's, you know, and

Josh:

especially in that state because of the state retirement and all that stuff.

Josh:

So that was a thing you just did.

Josh:

But so much has changed where.

Josh:

The opportunity is

Bob:

limitless.

Bob:

Now I do think you have to, you don't want to be lazy with your,

Bob:

like I was thinking of vetting the company so I could take this.

Bob:

I'm a bouncing ball syndrome and I'm chasing shiny money and things like that.

Bob:

And, and I'm not anti that we're talking about being pro that, but I still

Bob:

think you have to thoughtfully that thoughtfully interview the companies

Bob:

that to thoughtfully filter that because you don't want to go there

Bob:

and waste your time and land badly.

Bob:

Then maybe you talked about someone coming back.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I don't know what the F yes.

Bob:

W

Josh:

so both Bob and I are on the page of, you need to

Josh:

grab the reins on your career.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And go get the salary that you believe that you are worth.

Josh:

Go get it and go get it.

Josh:

But don't blindly do that.

Josh:

Or you have to understand the value of all these.

Josh:

Icky guy stuff that's out there.

Josh:

I said that properly, correct?

Josh:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So it's a, it's not, it's just a metaphor it's but it's, but

Bob:

again, it's, it's think about like being aware of what am I good at?

Bob:

So I would say, you know, if, if, for example, what I'm good at new development,

Bob:

but I'm not good at maintenance and there's a maintenance role.

Bob:

That's a SAS that pops up.

Bob:

That's willing to pay me 35 more K a year, but that's not what I'm good at.

Bob:

And, and not only that, I don't like doing it.

Bob:

I don't love doing it.

Bob:

Then, then the odds of me growing there and accelerating the, or even enjoying

Bob:

my job are low, but the money's there.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, so just go in, I think it's go in eyes wide open and make sure that you're

Bob:

really looking at it like a portfolio based like, like a multi-faceted

Bob:

decision is what I'm suggesting.

Bob:

Does that make sense?

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

My, my

Josh:

historical advice for folks I've talked to when there was a similar

Josh:

role position experience required that paid 20 to 30 K more, it was they're

Josh:

paying you more for a reason, right?

Josh:

Something sucks over there that they need to compensate you more,

Josh:

but that's not true right now.

Josh:

Right now they are good companies across the board that have responded

Josh:

to this new market that's happening and have decided we're going to be up

Josh:

front and we're going to, we're going to get the best and we're gonna do

Josh:

that and we're going to pay the best.

Josh:

And so now there's a response happening across the entire market

Josh:

where that's pooling everybody else

Bob:

up.

Bob:

I still want.

Bob:

Fault.

Bob:

Yes, I'm not disagree, but there's still a lot of shitty companies in the world.

Bob:

And they're shitty in different ways.

Bob:

Like Netflix is a wonderful company to work for, but their work Amazon is a

Bob:

wonderful company to work for, but their view of people and their view and, you

Bob:

know, and, and there's variable pays and all of that, you really want to think of.

Bob:

I think you really want to be conscious about who you select and

Bob:

interview them and understand what you're in for like, like, like

Bob:

what do they expect for the money?

Bob:

And it may be hours, or it may be the type of work you do, et cetera.

Bob:

I guess what I'm saying is go in eyes wide open.

Josh:

So the we'll use a relatively strong word recommendation is you

Josh:

owe it to yourself to take a look at the market, given everything that's

Josh:

happening right now and leverage it

Bob:

and leverage that this as part of your stress, like be aggressive.

Bob:

But also eyes wide open.

Bob:

I think you're right.

Bob:

When you're like interview, we have some episodes where we talk about interviewing

Bob:

the company or at least one or two episodes where we've we focused on.

Bob:

And it's not just, it's not just asking a few questions.

Bob:

You may want to like ask to work with your team for a day.

Bob:

Like do an audition.

Bob:

Even if they're not doing audition, can I audition?

Bob:

can I, you know, can I meet everyone I will be working with?

Bob:

Can I, you know, if you could visit the company and I know that's hard

Bob:

nowadays, can you look at the culture?

Bob:

Like, is it, you know, you CA you, you know, no one will tell you it's

Bob:

a sweat shop, but walking around the company, you can actually tell that it's

Josh:

right.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

The, the surprising thing that I've had to coach people on is you should

Josh:

not be scared about the situation you are in the driver's seat.

Josh:

The demand is much higher than the supply that's out there right now.

Josh:

So you are no longer a commodity.

Josh:

You now are the thing that's in demand.

Josh:

So you have the opportunity to push harder on things like that and be selective.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

There was not a shortage.

Bob:

That's maybe the thing be really sharp on, on your you're interviewing

Bob:

the companies on doing your due diligence and be in the driver's seat.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

View this

Josh:

as you are in a great position because you are, you are

Bob:

now can I say something?

Bob:

I want to see how you react.

Bob:

The other thing, I, I think a lot of people get so people

Bob:

can get full of themselves.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And people can think they're better than they are.

Bob:

And they, and they lack self-awareness.

Bob:

So I think as part of, so I I'm suggesting, and I want to see Josh

Bob:

is going to keep me honest, but I think it's vetting the company, but

Bob:

I also think there's a vet yourself, dammit, and make sure that, you

Bob:

know, don't, don't get big headed.

Bob:

Maybe I'll leave it.

Bob:

Just keep it simple.

Bob:

Don't get big headed and get ahead of yourself.

Bob:

Make sure.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And that's, I'm not saying don't take challenges, but don't set yourself up to

Bob:

failure because you lacked self-awareness.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And it's tough because historically the people I've seen with

Josh:

low self awareness isn't yes.

Josh:

It's self awareness, but they haven't been coached well by good leaders.

Josh:

And they're usually technically talented, so people are afraid to upset them.

Josh:

So they don't give them the bad news that they should hear on how

Josh:

you got to get better at this.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

So they've lived in this bubble where they don't know.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

They should know.

Josh:

But also there should be coaching to say no one's given them.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

So people suck good companies, bad companies.

Bob:

You have talked about the leaders, the majority of leaders, 90% of leaders suck

Bob:

at giving good feedback and coachable.

Bob:

So it's not just the persons, it's the bubble that being created.

Bob:

So, so burst your own bubble.

Bob:

If you can find a

Josh:

friend that you really trust and like have a heart to heart

Josh:

discussion with them and say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

Josh:

What do you think now?

Josh:

I, I, I

Bob:

will,

Josh:

I have a confidence issue, right?

Josh:

Like I look at a thing and say, I can do that.

Josh:

It hasn't gotten me in trouble yet, but it has caused me to chase bigger things than

Josh:

I was experienced enough to be ready for.

Josh:

But I was willing to bet on myself to go like, make myself, make it happen.

Josh:

And I, you know, I haven't run into a brick wall yet, but that, that is

Josh:

undoubtedly going to happen at some point where I have a self-awareness issue where

Josh:

like, Josh, you really can't do that.

Josh:

So like, don't be dumb, but, but I know that's part of my personality that works

Bob:

sometimes.

Bob:

So I think all of our advice here on this side of the conversation was valid.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I'm going to say something rambunctious.

Bob:

Ooh, I like it.

Bob:

I'm excited.

Bob:

I'm not too, but I'm just saying it, but all everything we've said, I don't think

Bob:

there's a time in human history like this, where workers are in the driver's seat.

Bob:

So don't waste it.

Bob:

Don't waste this opportunity.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

This is too good of an opportunity, not just for you, but to disrupt right.

Bob:

Sort of mechanistic companies and, and, and poor leadership.

Bob:

maybe this leads into our other, you know, what can leaders do,

Bob:

but yeah, so don't only demand money, demand, excellent leaders.

Bob:

You may actually have a harder time finding excellent leaders

Bob:

than getting paid, but there is no better time than now.

Bob:

You have the heat on in here.

Bob:

What's going on, Bob?

Bob:

I had to take my jacket off.

Bob:

Are you?

Bob:

Yeah, I'm getting close.

Bob:

I think it's the hot air that we're both

Josh:

better.

Josh:

I'm going to start sweating soon.

Josh:

So before we go to the leadership side of the house, I want to talk

Josh:

about the flip side of that coin.

Josh:

So you thought about it.

Josh:

You've investigated.

Josh:

You've decided you, you love this company.

Josh:

You're getting a challenge the way you want to get challenged,

Josh:

but you know, you're potentially leaving 20, 30 K on the table.

Josh:

What do you

Bob:

do?

Bob:

I go for, if I'm, if I'm in that first, third, I go for it.

Bob:

I take all of the advice that we had, but this is it's like the stock market.

Bob:

What would you do if it was a stock market and you were grabbing a stock that

Bob:

you knew was going to grow over time?

Bob:

Well, I'm

Josh:

saying like, do you go talk to your boss?

Josh:

Do you say, Hey, there's this pay gap out there?

Bob:

I actually think so.

Bob:

I'd be interested to hear your view.

Bob:

I'm like, just go for it.

Bob:

I don't know if I, I talked to my boss so much outside of do I, do I

Bob:

change the behavior with my boss?

Bob:

Like how, whatever, if I'm having one-on-one.

Bob:

So every boss have them.

Bob:

If I'm having career growth discussions with our boss, keep having them

Bob:

to, whatever degree was habit.

Bob:

Do I have an extra conversation?

Bob:

No, I just look for the opportunities.

Bob:

I do see, I, I, I look, I probably look to

Josh:

jump.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

It, if, if I'm in that position where, where I've looked and

Josh:

in looking, so you find a

Bob:

30 K opportunity finding

Josh:

30 average SUNY, but the, and

Bob:

I love what you guy, I love where I'm at

Josh:

says.

Josh:

I love all of the things where I'm at except the pay piece.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

So I'm happy with all the other variables in the van, but the pay piece is missing.

Josh:

I take a shot and say, Hey, it's clear that roles.

Josh:

Like if I were to leave, you would have to pay someone 30 K more to film

Bob:

you.

Bob:

I would probably I, so, so we're on opposing ends, which is cool.

Bob:

I would probably just leave.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I would probably just leave because if they were going to pay me that they

Bob:

would have paid me that or any way, or my boss would have had a conversation

Bob:

with me to talk about the inequity or the market awareness, et cetera, et cetera.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

Well

Josh:

then let's slide into it's the other side of the coin you are.

Josh:

Responsible for 18.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

You hire them, you fire them.

Josh:

You, you help narrow in on what we're paying,

Bob:

but I'm aware of this market.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minute, Bob, I hear that you have.

Josh:

Juiciness to share.

Josh:

Well,

Josh:

so,

Bob:

I.

Bob:

I have been doing, giving diversity and inclusion or people color

Bob:

discounts to my leadership classes.

Bob:

And I've run into some people over the course of the last

Bob:

few years, in the classes.

Bob:

And I was looking at LinkedIn the other day.

Bob:

And there was this group of, mostly I think African-American coaches like eight

Bob:

of them and they posted something and they called it the agile disciples USA

Bob:

and what they they're forming a group.

Bob:

And they want to do two things they want to do.

Bob:

They want to get their certified team coach.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

There's criminal at CTC and that's a hard bar to get.

Bob:

So they're going to, they have this unique idea that we'll work

Bob:

together as a cohort to do that.

Bob:

And then while we're doing the cohort, part of the CTC is giving back or

Bob:

doing presentations or, you know, doing public speaking yourself or

Bob:

coordinating meetings or whatever.

Bob:

They're like, oh, we'll give back and we'll grow the community.

Bob:

So we're going to learn and we're also going to pay it forward.

Bob:

And that's part of our charter.

Bob:

And I sent them a little note and I'm like, you just let

Bob:

me know if I can help you.

Bob:

And the good, bad news is they, they said, yeah, you can, you know,

Bob:

we would like you to, to become a, a supporter of what we're doing.

Bob:

So I met with him yesterday, Saturday.

Bob:

And and it's, I'm going to be coaching, helping them become

Bob:

CTCs and supporting them.

Bob:

they, they want to have a kickoff meeting or something, you know,

Bob:

webinars, something to generate some of this public value back.

Bob:

They created a slack channel that we're talking in.

Bob:

So that's that, and I'm really, I'm really jazzed because it's the key thing for me.

Bob:

It's, it's our target.

Bob:

I want to help these folks.

Bob:

I have privilege.

Bob:

It's a group of folks they're incredibly passionate and what's

Bob:

exciting me the most is the snowball effect of the other side of them.

Bob:

Imagine as they gain momentum, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like the momentum side of it, because they're going to touch other people

Bob:

themselves because right away.

Bob:

Right away.

Bob:

And so I'm excited about that.

Bob:

That is very exciting.

Bob:

Now the biggest concern I have is bandwidth, right?

Bob:

It's like, it's like, I'm like, oh my God, I hope I can.

Bob:

I have a tendency, Josh, whether you know this or not to bite off

Bob:

more than I do, I, we both do both.

Bob:

So, so, but it's not, but my heart, I am, I am so blessed that this,

Bob:

and it just popped into my lap.

Bob:

Well, that's my

Josh:

diversity.

Josh:

You ever need to like tag out for a bit.

Josh:

Oh,

Bob:

you want to, you want to tag with me?

Bob:

Yeah, sure.

Josh:

I'd love that.

Josh:

I mean, I'm not a certified anything, so I

Bob:

don't know if that matters, but it's not, but they need men.

Bob:

They need people like, right.

Bob:

The paperwork needs mentors and coaches.

Bob:

There's all kinds of stuff to help them.

Bob:

I mean, and it's a long time arc, so the CTC might take a year or

Bob:

two to get, but while they're doing that, they're giving back.

Bob:

So I just love the hearts of these folks.

Bob:

Yeah, absolutely.

Bob:

Cool.

Bob:

Done.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

Back to the

Josh:

episode,

Bob:

I started initiating conversations with everyone.

Bob:

So I look at my banding.

Bob:

I look at my salary banding because there's always people that are

Bob:

underpaid more than other people.

Bob:

So, so I start looking at like my market equity and your marketing

Bob:

equity bands should be rising with this phenomenon as well, right.

Bob:

To some degree, not as fast, but I look, I talked to.

Bob:

And I'm aware of whoever reports to me and what it, the equity proposition.

Bob:

And I start having conversations with them, like, do we need

Bob:

to, do we need to do dual bump?

Bob:

Or what, what are you feeling like?

Bob:

So all I was saying was I, as a, as a leader, I want to be ahead of that curve.

Bob:

I don't want to wait for someone to have that conversation with me

Bob:

because it's potentially too late.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And then I'm counter offering.

Bob:

Do you know what I was implying earlier is I don't like counter offers, so

Bob:

that's another, so that's a bias I have.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I wanna, I wanna, like, I want to delight someone in advance of

Bob:

them, of them saying I have an offer on the table at 20 X again.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

To me, there are a few things as frustrating as, so

Josh:

you're willing to pay me this.

Josh:

I just had to say I was going to leave exactly.

Josh:

Why, why wouldn't you pay me that, like this, I feel like I've been

Josh:

deceived for a period of time.

Josh:

So

Bob:

I think so.

Bob:

Is I'm working my butt off and it's not always easy to do.

Bob:

And you can't always compete with the marketplace right.

Bob:

Equal, but I would be talking to people about it in one-on-ones.

Bob:

I would be trying to figure out who is more sensitive to it than others.

Bob:

and I would be trying to make adjustments to become more market competitive.

Bob:

And I'd be, and I'm not just saying that Medicare says I'd be working

Bob:

really hard behind the scenes in the company to justify that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

I, I, the, the only thing I would change about, and it might've been

Josh:

just the word you chose and you might have meant it differently than how you

Josh:

said it was that I wouldn't go ask HR.

Josh:

I would go tell HR and executives and, and whatever, saying, this

Josh:

is an issue, a market condition that we have to respond to.

Josh:

And we have choices.

Josh:

We can accept the market conditions, choose to play at this new level

Josh:

and find ways to fund that.

Josh:

Or we cannot, and then we have to accept.

Josh:

The indirect costs we're going to have by losing people, taking time, spending

Josh:

money, to recruit and fill those.

Josh:

Maybe not being able to hire as good at people as I've left

Josh:

because the pay differences.

Josh:

So you have to, at that moment, have a decision on what kind of company are we.

Josh:

So I think

Bob:

both things, Josh is what I was trying to say.

Bob:

There's salary banding.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And there's annualized re evaluate whatever your companies are accustomed to.

Bob:

I, I would use them to do that again or to reevaluate that, but then there's

Bob:

the, does that, that may or may not handle the market conditions, then

Bob:

let's argue for the current market.

Bob:

Like, what am I seeing in interviewing people?

Bob:

You're also, you're also, if you're hiring and most folks are going to

Bob:

grow, you're going to see you're going to have inequity coming in from the

Bob:

outside because you're competing.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So you can run that up.

Bob:

You can use that as an argument internally with HR who,

Josh:

yeah.

Josh:

I've, I've, I've had really hard.

Josh:

Decisions in the past, you know, maybe a decade ago where I wouldn't hire

Josh:

somebody in to a role where I was paying them more than somebody that was already

Josh:

doing the job and doing it well, that felt wrong for me to do, to have this

Josh:

person that has invested and returned with us and helped us build these

Josh:

things and then bring somebody in off the street that we think is going to

Bob:

be good.

Bob:

So, so yeah, I mean,

Josh:

I think that's part of, but that was a decade ago.

Josh:

It's not right now.

Josh:

Right now.

Josh:

Times are drastically different.

Josh:

It's crisis is the wrong word, but it's a, it's an event that

Josh:

you need to be responding to.

Josh:

No, I,

Bob:

I, I'm going to disagree with you.

Bob:

I think you were right.

Bob:

10 years ago.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

And I think you're right today.

Bob:

I think you're right to do that.

Bob:

Now you hire someone, but then now you have an internal equity challenge.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And you've exacerbated it.

Bob:

So, so you have to, you have to be leveraging that.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And, but, but you have, you ha I, I don't know what you were

Bob:

saying, but my re I always I'm, I'm always looking organizationally

Bob:

and am I paying everyone fairly?

Bob:

And as I'm hiring incoming folks, it's changing the distributions.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And so sometimes I even under non-crazy conditions, I would

Bob:

have salary bumps out of band.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Just so I could feel like I am fairly compensating folks.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I once adjusted all the QA folks, because I wanted them to be fairly compensated

Bob:

with developers in an agile context.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And, and they were overly, I couldn't even find a band for them to go

Bob:

into because they were underpaid.

Bob:

So I think you have to be balancing that.

Bob:

So I that's what you were saying before.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So then you might hire someone at 20 K more.

Bob:

But that's that won't stop you from that.

Bob:

But now, you know, you have to respond, right?

Bob:

You have to respond to everyone, right?

Josh:

Because the reality is, if you don't accept the fact that you might

Josh:

have to pay 20 K more than you're paying people right now, you might not

Josh:

get the type of people that you want.

Josh:

So then you have to take that step and reactively make

Josh:

adjustments within your company.

Josh:

So these, these are things that you were going to have to fight for.

Josh:

This will not be an easy road to go to the board or to whoever you

Josh:

have to go to, to get an actual.

Josh:

$3 million or whatever the number is to cover your team,

Josh:

to get everybody bumped up.

Josh:

And it's not just like $3 million this year.

Josh:

It's $3 million in perpetuity.

Josh:

Absolutely.

Josh:

You know, so those are discussions that sometimes folks don't like

Josh:

to have, but at that point, well,

Bob:

and you may have to say no.

Bob:

So you have choices as a leader.

Bob:

I had success in sharing with people, my equity drivers, but also my driver too.

Bob:

You know, I want to, I want to up-skill the organization,

Bob:

but I also want to be fair.

Bob:

So in some cases I might say no to someone from a salary.

Bob:

I mean, at some point, if someone came to you and said, I want 60 K I want a

Bob:

hundred K more, you're going to say no.

Bob:

So every leader has to put, you have to change your, your

Bob:

competitive posture, right.

Bob:

And your strategies.

Bob:

So I think there's a monetary strategy as a leader.

Bob:

What's challenging is depending on the company culture, you can't always

Bob:

communicate that to people like in some cultures, they make salaries relatively.

Bob:

Transparent or not totally, but relatively transparent or ranges

Bob:

of bags and some places don't.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

I also think it might even be less, so it's more of a personal

Bob:

thing, but I think your leadership style has to change as well.

Bob:

I mean, so for take money off the plate, you know, are they

Bob:

going to give me flexibility?

Bob:

Are they going to train me?

Bob:

Are they going to give me flex time?

Bob:

Are they going to allow me to work from home?

Bob:

Are they are they going to not ride me?

Bob:

Like treat me like a resource?

Bob:

Are they going to treat me like a person?

Bob:

There's a lot of leaders out there.

Bob:

Are they going to have one-on-ones with me and, and, and really connect

Bob:

to me, like establish a relationship with me and put me first and grow me.

Bob:

So there's the supervisory relationship?

Bob:

The leadership aspect.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I think you have to raise the bar on that as well.

Bob:

Don't you, I'm thinking

Josh:

you have to raise the bar on anything.

Josh:

So to me, I hope this isn't the first time you're hearing this discussion topic,

Josh:

because if this is the first time you're hearing that and you have a team that

Josh:

you're leading and it might be too late.

Bob:

I don't think people, I I'm not as tuned in as you are.

Bob:

You're, you're more tuned in, but my sense is this isn't P

Bob:

most companies are reacting to this rather than being proactive.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

It's like diversity.

Bob:

I mean, I heard someone the other day, they laid off the diversity and inclusion.

Bob:

They, why would you do that now?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So people, I think, I don't know if most companies are in a proactive mode

Bob:

and like staying ahead of the curve and

Josh:

yeah.

Josh:

And, and I firmly believe the companies that are will win.

Josh:

Oh yeah,

Bob:

absolutely.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

So it's a, it's a life or death, death kind of thing.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Where, again, this is one of those found foundational issues

Josh:

of if you're a technology company.

Josh:

You have to respond to this because others will and you won't.

Josh:

And then you're going to struggle to find the talent that is needed

Josh:

to deliver whatever you need to do.

Bob:

Well, I mean, this is going to weed out too, to your point, it's

Bob:

going to weed out the weak and the, and the myopically focused folks.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

I agree.

Bob:

What else should leaders?

Bob:

I actually think the icky guy, I have to bring it in.

Bob:

I think the achy guy comes into play again.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Because it's make sure folks are doing what they love.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Giving folks opportunities, trying to help them make a difference, even if

Bob:

that's a difference, like, working for habitat, the company creates opportunities

Bob:

to volunteer for habitat for humanity.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Or something like that.

Bob:

Or like you were doing at storable where you were talking about

Bob:

diversity and inclusion and you had that, those initiatives.

Bob:

It's not just, am I making a difference outside?

Bob:

Am I making you can make a difference inside, inside out?

Bob:

Yeah, I think those things, yeah.

Bob:

I mean, that's, that's

Josh:

the job, right?

Josh:

You need to know what drives people.

Josh:

And as soon as someone on your team doesn't feel like your company is helping

Josh:

them get to wherever they want to get to.

Josh:

If it's, Hey, I love my job.

Josh:

I just want to help the world more or, Hey, I love my job.

Josh:

And I just need a little bit more money or I'm happy with the money and I

Josh:

want to try something new or whatever.

Josh:

Like you, you need to understand what drives each person and make sure

Josh:

it's clear that you're supporting them and getting to wherever that is.

Josh:

And if not, then they'll go find somebody else that does

Bob:

another thing as you were talking, I was thinking.

Bob:

At Zenergy, we've talked about strategies of bringing folks in

Bob:

from the bottom and developing them.

Bob:

So I think this is another part of this strategy out there

Bob:

is, are you growing people?

Bob:

You know, we've talked about university, like our biases, not

Bob:

hiring people with university degrees, not being totally focused.

Bob:

20 years ago.

Bob:

I was focused there.

Bob:

Now it's maybe bring folks in with a bootcamp a 10 week bootcamp

Bob:

and bring them in and develop them for two or three years.

Bob:

So I think there's multi, I'm wondering if there's multifaceted

Bob:

strategies of staffing.

Bob:

It's not just bringing in high-end folks.

Bob:

It's are you growing people?

Bob:

Yeah, I think it's both as a leader.

Bob:

I'm looking for, am I developing folks?

Bob:

My bringing folks in with music degrees.

Bob:

Am I allowing people to pivot in from school teaching?

Bob:

What am I doing?

Bob:

At all ends of the organization to create this.

Bob:

Would you buy that or, yeah,

Josh:

I, I think that's something you should be doing now, regardless

Josh:

of whatever, like this, this event shouldn't push you into that you

Josh:

should have already been doing that.

Josh:

But if you're not doing that again, if you're not doing that and you

Josh:

don't respond to what's happening.

Josh:

Yeah,

Bob:

yeah, yeah.

Bob:

Well, there's going to be a natural, I mean, part of what we're talking

Bob:

about though, is a natural as a leader, we're on the flip side, right.

Bob:

As a leader, you're not going to keep people forever.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

You're not.

Bob:

So what are you, what are you doing to re, to re re instantiate your staff?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You gotta be thinking about,

Josh:

yeah.

Josh:

I, I, my first real leadership role was at a small insurance company that

Josh:

mostly hired hourly folks to do claims and underwriting and all of that stuff.

Josh:

So when I came in and wanted to pay developers, when I thought a fair

Josh:

price was, there was a number of.

Josh:

Comfortable going above.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

And I, I got frustrated because I would hire somebody in, they would

Josh:

get great and they would leave.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

I just accepted, okay.

Josh:

These are the constraints with which I am presented.

Josh:

How am I going to respond?

Josh:

So I got really good at finding young talent, bringing them in, getting them

Josh:

up to speed as quickly as I could getting two, three good years out of them.

Josh:

And then making sure I always had a pipeline of somebody else ready to come in

Bob:

tenured today.

Bob:

Just guess I would guess like five years max, max.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So what we're talking about, you have to develop a strategy

Bob:

to do some of this, right.

Bob:

And there might be a pipeline for everyone and then maybe for subject

Bob:

matter experts or architects or something.

Bob:

So maybe you have to sort of longer tenured people, but you're still going

Bob:

to, you're still going to have to refresh.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

As a leader, you need to always be recruiting.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Always.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Did we, I feel pretty good about this.

Bob:

Do you?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

I'm going to make sure you brought it into, I think it was a nice

Bob:

topic, actually, so, all right.

Bob:

Are we done?

Bob:

Oh, we're done.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob Gatlin and I'm not

Josh:

sharing.

Josh:

Listen,

Bob:

shake and bake.

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