Church community building has never been more urgent or perhaps more difficult. In this episode of Pivot Podcast, Jeff Galley and Phil Smith, co-authors of The Way Back to One Another, join Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm to talk honestly about the loneliness epidemic reshaping American life and what it means for the church. Drawing on years of experience in large church ministry and global relief work, Jeff and Phil bring both data and personal longing to this conversation. Since 2014, time Americans spend with other people has dropped by roughly 50%, and the church is not exempt.

Jeff and Phil ground their vision in three biblical terms, ezair, allelon, and koinonia, and lay out five practical "one another" commitments that Scripture calls us to. But the heart of the conversation is about culture, not programs. Real church community building, they argue, starts with leaders who are willing to model vulnerability, go first, and trust that one relationship at a time can turn the ship.

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We don't experience the full depth of fellowship, of koinonia, because we are the gathering of the pious, we're the fellowship of the pious. And it is unthinkable that there would be a sinner among us. And consequently, he uses the words, consequently, we remain lonely, because we're not the fellowship of the broken.

Hello everyone and welcome to the Pivot Podcast where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Alicia Granholm and I am joined by my co-host, Dwight Zscheile

Today, we're glad to welcome Jeff Galley and Philip Smith, co-authors of the new book, The Way Back to One Another, How to Live as People Created for Community. Jeff has spent years leading community ministry at Life.Church, a multi-site church based in Oklahoma that reaches over 100,000 people weekly through its in-person and online ministries. Phil has extensive senior leadership experience in global relief work, including at World Relief and Hope International.

his time serving in Africa fundamentally reoriented how he thinks about connection and what it really means to love one another.

We're spending this season of Pivot asking why it is so hard to cultivate Christian community today and what we can actually do about it. Jeff and Phil have been living inside that question. So we are really looking forward to talking with them today about both an honest diagnosis of this challenge as well as a practical way forward. So welcome, Jeff and Phil.

Thank you so much, Alicia and Dwight. It's really a privilege to be here with you today.

So you both noticed something shifting in how people connect. Long before it became more of a cultural conversation as it is now. What were you seeing and what made you take it seriously?

I'll throw a few thoughts out and then I'll throw it your way, Phil. ⁓ You know, for me, it's been a convergence of several influences. I have been on the team here at Life.Church for nearly two decades. all of my work here on the team at Life.Church has been in one way or another related to community, fostering community, caring for and supporting our small groups. And so I've seen desire for connectedness. ⁓

among across the church and among people, you know, like a true intent to make those to make the kind of connections that lead to community. But what I've also observed over the years is that our church is facing the same cultural headwinds that make community really difficult for everybody in our society. It's not it's the same like the church is experiencing the same thing. So just watching that and then combined with the privilege I've had and much of it with with Phil.

And with our church's partnership with Hope International, excuse me, with Hope International in actually spending time with churches in the majority world over the years and seeing what community looks like in those churches, in groups that experience the kind of, you know, safety and connectedness and community that I time and again have left those moments saying, I wish that I could experience that in my own life.

And that's so rare in my context. ⁓ then that's, I think that is another part of it, is just my personal longing to want to experience the kind of community that God created us for and just having to come to terms and be honest with the fact that I have to face the same norms in our culture that make that hard. so I think that all those influences have caused me to really care about this issue. And then as Phil and I started working on the book,

So there's a little bit of an independent mindset too that is so common within the church in our context here in America. ⁓ More than half, 56%, according to Barna, of Christians say that their relationship with God is really between them and God alone. It's entirely private. And about a third of people say, I'm all about discipleship, but I'd rather just do that with just me and God. It's an individual thing. that's contrary to what we see.

in the church around the world and it's not what God intended. And so those are the things that have made me take this so seriously.

Yeah, thanks Jeff. would just echo everything that he said. My experience ⁓ and Jeff's experience in some ways are ⁓ very similar, in some ways ⁓ are different. ⁓ That longing though of being with the global church and seeing groups of people ⁓ who love each other, care about each other, ⁓ are feeling safe in community, ⁓ known, accepted.

feel like they belong. ⁓ Time after time after time in the role that I've been in with Hope International, I came away from those gatherings feeling like, I would like to have that in my life and actually wondering, is that possible ⁓ in our culture? ⁓ The other thing that resonates ⁓ in Jeff for sure ⁓

has pointed it out is our eyes were really opened when we started to do the writing and then started to do the research and the interviews with pastors around the country. ⁓ We, ⁓ you know, not to exaggerate it, I don't think at all. We have a real problem here in the United States, ⁓ a loneliness or social isolation problem. So yeah.

Phil, your time in Rwanda seems to have been a turning point for how you understand community. What did you encounter there that really transformed this understanding for you?

Yeah, I'll tell you ⁓ for my wife, Becca and I living in Rwanda exposed us really to community like we had never seen before. ⁓ And I think before we moved there, we lived there for five years. I think before we moved there, ⁓ we had a notion that things will be slower and it's a slow pace of life, that kind of thing.

And in reality, ⁓ it is not slower. People work very hard. There are schedules. ⁓ So it's not a slower pace of life, but I would say, as I've thought about it, it's a relational pace of life. And let me give you an example. If I were walking to work and I came across a friend and I knew that I had an appointment coming up, there is no way it would be unthinkable ⁓ for me not to stop.

talk with that friend, ask how family is, ask how his or her life is, ⁓ regardless of my schedule, regardless of appointments. And the learning there is that relationships take absolute priority. know, for Becca and me, this is, laugh about it because it was a rough learning. For Becca and me, ⁓

unscheduled visitors, guests knocking at the door were not uncommon. And we were in the Western mindset. We were in that mindset of I've got my to-do list, I've got my priorities. And so the thought immediately when they came was, couldn't you have called? Don't you know that I have work to get done? But for that culture,

relationships take priority. And in fact, it's an honor for someone to come and to visit you. ⁓ so it took us a while to get used to that. We felt like it was an intrusion, inconvenient. ⁓ and we learned that, wow, sitting and spending time together, ⁓ regardless of what's going on are really, really good. We felt loved and we also,

I had more than one of my Rwandan brothers and sisters tell me and remind me of an African proverb that says, Westerners have watches, Africans have time. So I'll let it go there.

Also, and that does ⁓ invite us to think about, in the book, you really dig into some biblical terms and thinking about this in the ancient biblical context, which probably was much more like a contemporary African culture ⁓ as we think about how community worked. But in the book, there's three biblical terms that you highlight in particular. One is azair, the Hebrew word that's often translated helper. One is alelan, the Greek term for one another. And then the third is koinonia.

that Greek word for communion or fellowship. So say a word about these three terms and how they really shape a biblical vision for community today.

Yeah, yeah, it is for us. We found that those three terms gave us a foundation. They were very instructive. So is there the Hebrew word ⁓ in our translations? It does mean ⁓ helper, but within our context ⁓ there could be some misconstruing of what helper means. ⁓ We could look at that as a subservient. ⁓

⁓ kind of a role, a servant or a junior assistant. And as we look at scripture, that's really not the case. So for instance, if we go to Psalms 121 verses one and two, and this is a very familiar scripture. It says, I lift my eyes to the mountains from where my help comes from. Help is is there. My help is there.

comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth. And then even if we go to Hosea, the prophet Hosea, speaking in his speaking, God refers to himself as Ezair. So Ezair, rather than being a subservient ⁓ role, if you will, Ezair is a helper. So if we get back then to ⁓ Genesis, God said,

it's not good for us to be alone. In other words, we're created for relationship. He then said, so I will create an as there for Adam. And that as there is actually a companion, an ally, someone who really would run to the rescue. And so the number one for us was that God calls us to be those as, as, as his children, those who run to the rescue of others. The second, ⁓

Um, a lay loan is very, it is very common as the one another versus Jesus in John chapter 13 said a new commandment. give you that you love one another. I lay loan as I have loved you. So love one another, a lay loan. And this is the way that folks that people will know that you are my disciples. If you love one another, a lay loan. So

This is a rich term. It means mutuality. It means co-participation. ⁓ And 47 times in the New Testament, ⁓ the writers build out what a leilon is, ⁓ what one another is, serve one another, love one another, care for one another, pray for one another, bear one another's burdens, and on and on. And for Jeff and I, as we looked at this, ⁓ this foundation of kind

Where are we today versus where is God through Jesus Christ calling us to the one another scriptures and admiration ad admonitions are rich in terms of a foundation. And then that led us to this is a ⁓ one another is to each other. ⁓ but this then led us to coinonia, which is a word that, ⁓ most of us are familiar with.

In Acts chapter two and four, Luke refers to those early believers as having koinonia. Koinonia is ⁓ community and fellowship together. And I think at the very basic term where we came to is we see koinonia when a leilon love is practiced in a group.

And so those three became the foundation for ⁓ the book ⁓ that we were writing. Really the foundation, well, how do we find our way back to one another?

That's beautiful. And you lay out five facets of loving one another, depend on one another, know one another, talk with one another, welcome one another, and commit to one another. Can you take us through each of those and what those actually look like or can look like in practice?

Yeah, I would love to. So Paul, he wrote the New Testament to specific churches and specific cities addressing their unique, specific struggles. so knowing that after seeing the scripture gives us a solution to the problem of aloneness in all the ways that Phil just walked through. With all that in mind, if Paul were writing to us in our context,

today specifically about the specific challenges that we face, what would he say? And those five, one and others are the five things that we arrived at is I, okay, if we're reading the, you know, the, the letter to the church in the USA or the Western church, whatever you want to call it, these are probably the things that Paul would talk about. And so let me just elaborate on them, depend on one another. You know, I think we all know how much we love our independence. We have,

July 4th, that's one of our biggest holidays. It's Independence Day. Our cultural heroes are all about independence. Those are the people we celebrate. We argue more about who's the greatest individual player in sports, the greatest of all time. We argue more about that than we do who's the greatest team of all time. Our business heroes are individuals, but we don't talk about the whole team behind them.

And so the first one another is just saying, all right, I recognize that actually I've got to set aside that independent streak that we all have and think about the way God designed all for flourishing to be mutual. Like it's trading away our independence for a sense of interdependence. Like I actually need people. And so that's the first one. Another, the second, no one another, you know, we like to put our best foot forward.

And we like to, ⁓ well, at least we tend to keep the parts of ourselves hidden that we are ashamed of, are not excited about from other people for obvious reasons. But what Paul calls us to and what the scripture, the kingdom way of thinking about relationships calls us to is actually creating a safety where we can be fully known and fully loved. Like,

I know there are people who know every bit of me and they still accept me good, bad, and ugly faults and all. And it's also me creating a safety for other people to bring their full selves in their relationship with me. ⁓ you know, ultimately we know ourselves best through the eyes of other people. So no one another. And then Paul would say, talk to one another. And, ⁓ this is a really big deal. We actually just talk to each other less than we used to.

And it's not only deep, long conversations. When we talk about community, we might think that. It's also just a chit chat. It's just taking time to have a lighthearted conversation with people at work, our next door neighbors. Just good chit chat, actually, when our small group gets together. But then it does include really great conversational skills, like asking better questions, learning how to listen. So that's the next challenge, is just talk.

You know, that conversation is where the sense of accompaniment really happens. That's the rails that that train runs on is just good conversation. And then the next one another is to welcome one another. We really love to be with people who are like us. And we like to be liked and we like to be with people who like us. And our society often sorts us into things that

are similar to us. Our podcast feeds give us content that we're used to that reinforce the ideas that, you know, important to us. We tend to buy houses and neighborhoods with people who are like us. And so what we believe is true of the appals. So Paul would say to us today is that, okay, community is going to require that we cross the social barriers that are often there and experience the kind of I need you, you need me experience relationships.

that can only happen when I actually have a friendship with people who are very different than me. And then the last one is commit. We are often in our current cultural context defined by convenience. When I get tired of my Netflix subscription, I'll just cancel it. I'll pick it up the next day and my cool show comes on, right? If I need some dinner and I'm running short on time, I'll just dial up an app and send food my way. And many of those things are good, but we...

do tend to extend that to our relationships and that's not good. That's problematic. so recognizing that we've got to show up in relationships when it's inconvenient, ⁓ not having a what's in it for me attitude, but a what can I do for you? And the ability to stay with a relationship even when it's uncomfortable or not necessarily beneficial to me, that's a big part of experiencing the kind of community that.

that God gave us. And all five of these are things that really resist some cultural headwinds that make it hard for us. And so in the book, what we've tried to do is end every chapter with a design a life section and talk about each one of those. There's a chapter for each one of those one and others. And then just really break it down to what are some small, simple things that every one of us could do in those areas that actually do move the needle. Like there's a real sense of hope. We can solve this problem.

And these one and others are actually very achievable for all of us.

Well, let's talk a bit about the shape of church life, because I think a lot of congregations, you know, they're designed around certain events and programs as the default for how people might connect in the community. And those aren't necessarily working that well these days. So what's missing, ⁓ you know, what's the role of smaller forms of community, things like small groups or medium size, you know, communities that may not be

⁓ you know, the crowd gathering for worship, but, but what are you learning about how people can connect meaningfully and share life in today's culture?

I think what I'm learning is that the problem is not the programs themselves. think we're, you generally our churches are really good at creating awesome programs and they matter. They're important, small groups, care teams, mid-size communities, know, greeters, host teams that make people feel comfortable when there is a gathering on the weekends. I think the problem is expecting something from those programs that a program just can't deliver. So it's unrealistic expectations. ⁓

Programs are limited and focused, but it's culture that actually moves the needle on the things we're talking about here. And what I'm talking about is just norms, like the way we carry ourselves, the way we show up in relationships, the way that we talk. That's what these one-anothers are really getting at. It's values, it's behaviors that lead to community. It's doing those behaviors over time consistently. It's even language.

words that we use. You know, if we're talking only about program words, that's only going to go so far. But when we're talking about ⁓ things like ⁓ being known, that creates a different narrative in my mind. And that's the kind of concept that can shape culture. So I think that's where we go wrong. ⁓ I'll just give you a quick story from a group that my wife and I had a real honor of being a part of just a few years ago.

We started a small group for young adults that were newly married and it was intended only go for a few months, but the group stuck. And honestly, the group stuck because of what the people brought to the group. ⁓ there's a one gentleman in the group, his name was Josiah and, ⁓ and he won one Sunday morning at church, just saw a guy named Dale kind of standing by himself and he walked over to talk.

to Dale. So that's not a program thing. That's just Josiah saying, I'm going to welcome this person. I want him to feel, you know, included, invited Dale, his girlfriend came to our group as well. And over the months, Dale experienced this transformation. He was not a follower of Jesus. And he talked a lot about his journey and the wrestling that he was going through and deciding if he wanted to live the life of a follower of Jesus. And he often told us,

Thank you for just creating the space for me to be myself and be who I am. And then something really unexpected happens. ⁓ Josiah actually had an unexpected heart attack, young man, 28 years old, and ended up that he had a heart defect that he didn't know about. And he passed away unexpectedly. His wife, Margaret, was left with her newborn baby by herself. And I watched this group rally around

Margaret in the most inconvenient ways over the next year of her life. Like they showed up for her. And in the process, Dale did make a decision to become a father of Jesus. And I had the honor of actually baptizing him in a swimming pool a few months later. all those, I mean, amazing story of transformation. By the way, Dale is doing great now and really thriving as a father of Jesus and with his young family. Margaret is remarried and she has

a beautiful new family and more children. All those things, you they don't happen because there's a program. They happen because there's people in that group that embrace those values. And I don't take the credit for making that true in that group. It's what those people brought and they embody so many of those one and others. So I think that's it. It's us shaping the kind of culture. And that starts with leaders and I am a church leader. So I challenge myself with this all the time.

We've got to lead the way. We've got to go first. As church leaders, to model these values, talk about them, model transparency, vulnerability, knowing one another, being known, ⁓ all those one and others. If we model them, that's going to do more to move the needle, I think, than just trying to tweak our programs.

I can't help but think about Paul's admonition, right? Follow me as I follow Christ.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah, I would. I think the one thing that I would add that I think is woven into what Jeff said is ⁓ as we look at the one another's ⁓ what we found was that they are so intertwined with each other. In other words, ⁓ committing to one another means that I am accepting interdependence. It means that I'm

I'm saying I'm not going to be on my own anymore. So anyhow, and we could go through each of them to look at how they do overlap and how they are intertwined. The big piece I think of learning for me has been that these are both mindset and then practical applications. But the mindset...

If the mindset is we have a loneliness epidemic and consequently, we really need to depend on ⁓ government agencies or counseling services, or even we have pastoral staff that will address the loneliness epidemic. We're missing the boat. Not that those aren't important. I don't want to send that signal, but the loneliness

that people are experiencing, the solution to that rests with each one of us. And so that mindset of, am the one who can be the creator of relationship, the creator of community, is a mindset that we need to take on. ⁓ Cultural headwinds are super, super strong.

So if a pastor or lay leader, you know, wanted to take ⁓ one concrete step toward fostering deeper connection in their congregation, and as I hear, right, you know, kind of address some culture change that might be necessary, ⁓ where would you tell them to start?

I would tell them to start by having a real sense of hope that we actually do have the solution to the problem of aloneness. Like we can change this. And then, and then I would say to that church leader, go first, model it, you know, whatever you want your congregation to experience, being known, being vulnerable, depending on one another, you know, we, as church leaders, we have to model it first. And so that's typically how our culture changes is, is it's

somebody that says I'm going to go first and model it. And then I'm going to talk openly about it and recognize that people are going to follow, you know, how I live my life ⁓ much more oftentimes than what I say.

Yeah, I, I, I agree with that, Jeff. And I would say in, the church, ⁓ in the church that I attend, ⁓ there are a couple of things that, ⁓ the, ⁓ church pastoral staff have done. ⁓ one is, ⁓ to emphasize that the real life of the church is happening in smaller communities.

Um, and it's not just words. It is, it is a true emphasis that, that this gathering together here on Sunday morning is not what this, this being the church is all about. Um, and so they are, they are speaking with the language from the front. The second is, um, there is, there is a

I don't want to call it a promotion, but there is an acceptance of vulnerability, of the fact that we are broken. know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer said that, I won't quote it exactly, but he said, we don't experience the full depth of fellowship, of koinonia, because we are the gathering of the pious, we're the fellowship of the pious.

and it is unthinkable that there would be a sinner among us. And consequently, he uses the words, consequently, we remain lonely because we're not the fellowship of the broken. And vulnerability on the part of, whether it's pastoral staff or church leaders, ⁓ vulnerability really fosters vulnerability.

I think if I were talking to, ⁓ leaders in, different churches, there, there might not be any one thing that I would say. ⁓ but I would really emphasize that one-on-one relationships like forget about, forget about your me time and, and carve out the we time for a cup of coffee, have lunch, whatever it might be. Those one-on-one relationships are critical.

And the second is this idea of a group that Jeff talked about with people who really, really get to know each other, go deeper, and really take care of each other. That is what we're called to. And without that, we're not going to experience ⁓ the richness of ⁓ relationships. ⁓

will dwell in social isolation, unfortunately. Yeah. But I'm also with Jeff. Man, there is hope. ⁓ It's one person at a time. ⁓ There is hope. And there are a lot of us who can turn the big ship. Yeah.

Well, Jeff and Phil, thank you so much for this rich conversation. That's just such a powerful reminder that community doesn't just happen, particularly in the modern West. It really does have to be intended with intentionality, but that work is so worth it.

We'd love to invite you to join us next week for a conversation with Wes Ellis on prayer in a secular age. To help spread the word about Pivot, please like and subscribe if you're watching us on YouTube, leave a review on your podcast platform, or share Pivot with a friend. We will catch you next week.

Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith Lead. Faith Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.