In this month's episode of Reimagining Work From Within, partners Bev Attfield and Laurie Bennett are joined by special guest Pat Dwyer, founder of The Purpose Business. Delve into the world of purpose in business as they discuss the shifting mindsets in leadership and changing expectations in the workforce. From successful family-owned businesses like Amy's Kitchen to major retail chains like Woolworths, learn how purpose can impact decision-making, create a sense of connection, and drive positive change within organisations and society. Tune in and join us as we explore the transformative power of purpose in the world of work!
Learn more about The Purpose Business or get in touch with Pat here.
Learn more about Within People or get in touch with Laurie or Bev.
Well, hello everybody, and welcome back to
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:re imagining work from within.
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:I'm Bev Atfield, a partner at Within
based in San Diego, California in the USA.
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:And I am very excited about
today's conversation, which is
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:a purposeful chat about purpose.
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:And with me today Laurie
Bennett and Pat Dwyer.
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:Laurie, you have heard
before on this podcast.
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:He is one of my fellow partners
and a co founder of within people
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:based in Vancouver, Canada.
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:Pat is one of our longtime friends
and is founder and director of the
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:purpose business based in London, UK.
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:Welcome to both of you.
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:Thank you very much.
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:Hi there.
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:This is a long overdue
conversation, isn't it?
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:. We both both by both.
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:I mean, within people and the purpose
business care a lot about purpose.
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:And we have been wanting to have
this conversation for quite some
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:time now, because we're really
excited about our partnership.
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:We're really excited about what we
can achieve in the world together.
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:And I am.
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:Really excited to be leading this
conversation to unpack what we care about,
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:why we believe in purpose and what it
means for us as we go forth into the world
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:to make the impact that we want to have.
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:So that's enough from
me for the time being.
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:I'd love to invite both of you to
just give us a bit of a sense of how
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:do we know each other and why, why
do we care so much about purpose?
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:So Pet, how do you know us
and what do you love about us?
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:Pat Dwyer: Gosh, this is a decade
long friendship slash cousinhood slash
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:everything else that we've been dreaming
of and, and even this podcast, we had, you
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:know, so many times we said we will do it.
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:I can't believe we're here now, Laurie.
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:And I also can't believe that I
haven't seen Laurie since Gosh,
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:was that 2016 I saw you last?
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:Laurie Bennett: It seems like a long time
ago, and it seems like just the other day.
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:I feel like this is a conversation
we've been waiting to have for a long
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:time, but also it's been a conversation
we've been having for almost 10 years.
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:So our challenge today is to try and
squeeze 10 years worth of conversation
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:into the next 45 minutes or so, I think.
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:And
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:Pat Dwyer: to sound like you're hearing
it for the first time, even if we've said
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:it again and again, but this is exciting.
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:Laurie Bennett: For that whole 10
years, pretty much everything Pat has
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:said about Purpose has been something
that I have found really delightful
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:and insightful to listen to, so.
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:Have no fear, Pat.
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:Pat Dwyer: Very kind, very kind.
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:I do think, you know, you, you have
charted a different way to get to
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:purpose and it's intriguing how we've
come from a very different way, which
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:I'm sure we'll talk about today.
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:Bev Attfield: Well, and that's the, the
Beauty of this friendship, isn't it?
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:Is that we might have different
opinions or we might have different
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:experiences, but we come together
and converge around the importance of
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:purpose in the business context and
how it is one of the key drivers for
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:building businesses that can really
have a positive impact in the world.
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:So I am honored to be the guide to this
conversation and I will do my best to
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:take us into the nuance and, and the,
the delightful layers that make up our
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:relationship, but also you know, part of
what we're trying to do today is really
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:just unpack what purpose is and how
it can really help unlock so much for
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:businesses and people in them if we get
it right, so let's get the journey going.
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:Okay.
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:So the first question that's that
I've been thinking about is why
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:is now the golden moment for us to
bring our passion together as within
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:people in the purpose business in
service of purpose led organization.
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:So Laurie, Pat, could you each give us
your quick 30 second take on why now?
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:Laurie Bennett: Sure, I don't think
there's ever a bad time to have
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:this conversation, but there is
something that feels a little bit
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:special about right now, as we look
out into the world of business and.
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:And what's happening out here that
makes purpose almost extra interesting
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:and relevant to, to talk about right
now, I think, from my perspective, a
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:couple of the things that feel really
interesting about this, uh, number one,
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:Is just watching how the world
of work has shifted this side
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:of the coronavirus pandemic.
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:Just the ways that we're working, the ways
that business is being asked to operate
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:by the employees of those businesses.
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:Who are putting a real premium
on what are we here to do?
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:I think coming out of a social crisis
like that right out into an environmental
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:crisis around climate change really has
brought it closer to mind the, the role
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:that businesses play in society beyond
just generating profit for themselves.
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:And I think that's come into the
sharpest ever focus right now.
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:And it comes at the same time as we're
seeing a new generation of people.
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:Really making up the bulk of the workforce
and starting to step into leadership
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:positions, the millennials and the Gen
Z generations who well known to be
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:very upfront with asking their employers
and expecting their employers to play
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:a bigger role in society and who value
meaningful work extremely highly when
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:they're choosing where they want to work.
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:I think it's at the moment it's 63%.
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:Of millennials say that the
primary purpose of a business
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:should be about improving society.
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:Not about generating profit.
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:And that makes a conversation about
purpose really interesting, not just
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:from the perspective of wanting to do
good in the world, but wanting to attract
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:and retain and grow the brightest and
finest talent inside your business too.
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:Bev Attfield: Juicy.
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:Thanks, Laurie.
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:And we're going to dig into some of those.
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:Benefits that having a clear purpose
unlocks for a business later.
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:Aren't we?
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:I'm hearing things in their macro
micro shifts that have happened.
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:You know, a lot has changed in the
world over the past three to five years.
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:Pat, what are you seeing around, you
know, why this is the moment for us
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:now building on and perhaps adding to
what Laurie had just shared with us?
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:Pat Dwyer: Yeah, I mean, I echo
everything Laurie just has said.
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:And on top of that, I guess if I put my
sort of Asia hat on, and I'm always of
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:two minds doing this because I can't speak
for all of Asia, I don't dare do that.
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:But from what we see, there is a phrase
that we coined last year, which seems to
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:be accepted by leaders in Asia, which is
purpose has gone from fluff to function.
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:And there's a, there's an acceptance
that they did call it fluff because
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:they couldn't place it, whether it
sat up there in leadership retreats,
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:Or down there in the quiet moments of
the staff when they're actually not
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:working, you do it on a Sunday night.
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:So what has changed apart from everything
that Laurie has said is the need for
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:transformation as an organization is
now a knock at various doors of the
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:same house, all at the same time.
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:Whereas in the past, it might have
been something that the chairman,
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:the chairman, because it's always
the chairman, would have said,
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:because it's a moment of legacy.
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:Or it might've been a
question in the employee.
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:Kind of survey or questionnaire,
and it's down there in the
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:AOB section of the agenda.
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:Any other business, right?
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:It's never right on top.
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:What we're seeing is In this space
of sustainability, you have all
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:of these difficult commitments,
hard targets that you're setting.
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:And there are more and more leaders who
are coming to say that decarbonization
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:is not the hardest thing we have to do.
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:What actually is the hardest thing
to do is to bring the culture
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:along and to change the business
models that we've called true.
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:And correct, and upon which we've
based all our remuneration, rewards,
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:and success metrics, right, on.
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:And now it has to change
because there is something else
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:that needs to get questioned.
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:And that often is about the why you exist.
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:So, and it's very exciting times for sure.
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:Mm hmm,
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:Bev Attfield: mm hmm.
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:Yeah, and I really appreciate that
you expanded our view to the global
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:perspective on this, Pat, because, you
know, obviously we, another beautiful
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:dimension of our friendship is that
we find ourselves in different places
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:around the world, and that gives us
The ability to actually see difference,
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:but also to see where things are
converging around purpose, even though
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:it might be the Asian or the North
American or the European context.
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:Right.
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:So that's, what's really beautiful about
the depth of how we are present in the
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:world right now, and I'm going to invite
us to dig into that and give some examples
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:of what that might look like in those
different contexts a little bit later.
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:But what I'm also hearing from you
is how the shift has gone from being
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:something that , it's nice to have to
something that is a strategic driver.
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:So purpose is now at the forefront of
our conversations and our considerations.
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:And we we're knitting it into the
very fiber of our workplaces and
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:our cultures that we are creating
within those organizations, which
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:is a little bit different from a
number of years ago, where it was
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:just the side of the desk thing.
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:It was maybe the thing that, you know.
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:Just the HR manager did, or the
social committee did as an extension
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:of, you know, why we're here.
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:So this is really exciting times, I think.
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:But I think one question that is
arriving for me and maybe for some
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:of our listeners, before we start
getting into the layers and the detail.
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:And the complexity of, of purpose in
some moments what the heck is purpose?
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:I think is the first question that I'm
holding because until we have a working
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:definition of what it is we might
find ourselves going down some rabbit
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:holes that our, our listeners won't
have a clear navigational system for.
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:So let's just pause for a moment.
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:Could you each give me your working
definition of purpose in the
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:business context and Pat, I'll ask
you to go first when you're ready.
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:Pat Dwyer: Sure.
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:It is why you exist as a company or
an organization that contributes to
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:overall wellbeing of people and planet.
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:And I let that sink in because it will
hit you depending on what resonates
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:in that entire sentence, right.
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:But I remember being called the
purpose business, my God, what
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:pressure did we put on ourselves?
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:But in 2015, when we started,
I had founders and CEOs going,
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:good luck with your charity path.
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:Profit is my purpose.
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:What are you talking about?
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:And of course that is the reason they
existed is to double the market share,
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:grow the market segment, you know, and,
and, and that is the measure of success.
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:But today, when you look at.
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:The question on why it sits in strategy
now is because there's got to be something
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:bigger than profit maximization, the
profit at all costs, you know, which has
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:brought us to things like climate change
and to things like social inequality.
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:There has to be something that
business should exist for, and
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:that we can dig into this later.
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:It is wellbeing of people and planet.
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:Bev Attfield: Interesting.
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:Laurie, what's your take on it?
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:Laurie Bennett: I love that.
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:It's, it's very similar.
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:I think there's so many
different definitions of purpose
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:floating about in the world.
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:I think there's certain
bits that they all agree on.
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:And that piece that sits still at the
heart of it for us is why, you know, it's
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:the reason for existing as a business.
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:It's.
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:As a result, it's the source of meaning
and direction in the work that we do.
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:It becomes a sort of a description
of the role that we play in the
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:vision that we have for the world.
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:And we ask ourselves, what difference do
we want to make in the world around us?
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:Our purpose is the role we play
in, in making that difference.
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:It's the, it's not a goal
that we set for ourselves.
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:It's the passion.
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:That we have, that fuels us to go
and achieve the goals we do set.
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:And I think the, the way I really
love that idea of this, of the sense
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:of it as a contribution, and I think
we really talk about purpose as
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:representing the contribution, the
positive contribution to the world that
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:we make simply by being in business.
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:And I think there's something really
important about that last piece that
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:speaks to a little bit about what you
were saying a moment ago, Bev, which is
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:your purpose isn't something separate
to what you do as a business in many
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:ways, it's not something to the side
that speaks to here's the good stuff that
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:we do while we're doing all these other
things over here, making these products
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:and services, our purposes, something.
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:Repairs the damage of doing those things.
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:Purpose is about saying that the very
stuff that we do, the products that
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:we make, the services that we put out
there, the very act of doing those things
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:leaves a positive impact on our society,
on our community, on our environment.
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:And it's, for me, it's the role
that it plays in knitting that.
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:Right into the strategy of the
business that makes it exciting.
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:Pat Dwyer: I can just build on that.
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:That's it.
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:It's so powerful to say role.
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:And I love how Laurie
has just kind of almost.
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:You know, focused us into what
would happen if you weren't
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:there, dear organization.
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:What would we be missing?
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:Because someone else will
concoct the shampoo ingredients.
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:Someone else will build another mall.
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:Someone else will, you know, there's
always competition, but this point
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:on the unique strategic contribution
of a business, this is really
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:what I think is exciting because.
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:Of course, there's many of you in that
competing market, but there is something
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:about you that makes it different.
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:And, and we'll get to the
experience a little bit later on.
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:Right.
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:But when we say what's in your hand
as an organization, a lot of things
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:will fall through, but what is
right in the middle, what stays is
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:that unique strategic contribution.
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:And we say that leads to
wellbeing of people on planet
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:because you can't be purposeful.
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:and not be a responsible business.
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:Laurie Bennett: Yeah.
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:Bev Attfield: Okay.
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:So what I'm hearing is this is about
the why it's about the contribution
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:to the world that we want to have.
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:It is what sits at the heart of,
of what guides us as a business.
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:And oftentimes the only expression that
we see of that is Someone's purpose
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:statement that gets trotted out in
some sort of marketing campaign or is
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:on their swag or is made visible to us
somehow, because often we don't have the
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:opportunity to look under the hood and see
purpose at play within an organization.
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:So in the spirit of celebrating
those purpose expressions that we
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:love and that inspire us what would
be an example from each of you of a
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:purpose statement that you admire?
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:And why?
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:Laurie Bennett: Oh, Bev, it's like
asking me to choose my favorite child.
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:How can I do this?
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:I love all my purposes
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:Pat Dwyer: equally.
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:Laurie Bennett: Shut the door, Laurie.
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:Yeah.
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:I'd, because it was difficult.
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:I, I think there's two
that I would look at.
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:And for similar but
slightly different reasons.
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:One's a client of ours and an
organization that we've worked with for
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:a long time, which is Amy's Kitchen.
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:Who, if you don't know them, are what
we're kind of putting frozen vegetarian,
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:sustainably sourced meals out into the
world before that was something that
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:was cool and done by a lot of people.
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:They're a family owned business and.
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:The journey of finding purpose with them
was about really trying to tap into what
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:motivated the family to start the business
and to try and kind of encapsulate what
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:it really means to them to be in the
business of creating and shipping frozen
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:vegetarian food now around the world.
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:And the statement that they came
up with was make it easy and
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:enjoyable for everyone to eat well.
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:And the reason I love it is because
it's, it does what I really like in
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:purpose statements, which is have
you not go, Oh my gosh, that sounds
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:really sexy, but actually go, yeah,
of course, that's why you're here
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:doing something, because it is it.
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:Deeply authentic and true
rather than being crafted into a
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:slogan or a strapline for them.
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:And there's really core principles that
sit in that statement about the way that
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:they operate their organization and the
way that they want to leave a mark in
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:the world, which is about accessibility.
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:And joy around food that is healthy
for people and healthy for the planet.
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:It's sourced from and I can just see
how when they hold that purpose and when
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:they speak to that purpose, and when you
see how they behave as an organization,
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:the decisions that they make around
how they want to grow and around the
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:different products that they want to
bring out around the ways that they
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:market those around the ways that they
bring their staff in, there's something.
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:Powerfully connected to that idea that
exists inside the business for it.
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:And the other one that I really love is
Lego's purpose, which we did not help
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:them make, but the idea of to inspire
and develop the builders of tomorrow
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:is, is a really amazing picture because
if you know Lego, it didn't start out
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:as little blocks that people build.
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:It started out as wooden toys and
it's evolved that product and the
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:way that we use it and understand
it has involved from being a.
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:Toy that works a certain way to being
a whole system of enjoyment that
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:works differently to now kind of
multimillion dollar movie franchises
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:and all this other stuff that has been
able to grow up around this core idea
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:guided by this idea of inspiring and
developing the builders of tomorrow.
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:So something in there that's rich
in inspiration that talks about the
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:role in using play to educate and
the idea of builders of tomorrow
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:is just super clever because it.
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:It enables them to hold a context
around the very nature of what they
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:do, but also gives them the scope to
say that this is about how we create,
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:we help grow people who are going
to grow a future that is positive
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:for us and it's beautiful, I think.
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:Thanks, Laurie.
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:I
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:Bev Attfield: love both of those
examples for different reasons.
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:And I, I think I'm, I'm excited to
hear what Pat's going to share with
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:us so that we can start to form a
picture of, you know, as experts in
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:the field here, like what do we deem
to be well crafted purpose statements?
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:And it's not just about clever words.
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:It's about what sits behind those
words and it's the actions that
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:come to bear because of those words.
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:So, so Pat, what, what could you
add into the mix here to give us a
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:flavor of Beautifully crafted purpose
statements that aren't just empty words.
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:Pat Dwyer: Yeah.
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:Well, first off, I think the, it's so
hard to find the beautiful crafting
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:and you know, that you can activate it.
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:It's easy to craft it.
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:You know I could plug your other
podcast on AI taking a stab at it.
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:And that's a scary term.
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:To try and get to, but one of the
things that I do look for is always
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:an explicit expression of the role
as Laurie was talking about earlier,
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:the role of that unique strategic
contribution and the impact that you make.
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:Now, sometimes you've got to go with what.
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:Kind of rolls off the tongue
to the culture of the company.
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:And one of my favorite ones does
not perfectly sit on the role and
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:impact structure, but it tells you
what it is that they have been doing
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:and what they will keep on doing.
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:So OLAM is a 30 billion euro
turnover business in Asia.
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:It's basically in the business of
food, feed and fiber from cacao to.
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:Cashews to all sorts of raw materials
that go into products that we love
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:or that we consume on a daily basis
operating in kind of 60 countries.
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:But the founder is very much in
the middle of it right now, and he
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:was the one that orchestrated this.
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:And it was simply to really imagine
global agriculture and food systems.
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:And I love it because no one is enthused
by global agriculture and food systems.
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:on its own.
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:But we know that that system is broken.
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:We know that that system is battered
because of everything that we're facing.
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:You know, almost kind of societally,
not just environmentally,
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:politically, everything that kind
of contributes to the factor.
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:And they have seen how The system
itself needs to continue feeding the
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:stakeholders that they show up for and
all the companies that they provide you.
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:And a lot of those just have
to change very basic things.
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:So re imagining structures
for farming cooperatives, re
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:imagining how you price seeds.
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:When Ferghese, the CEO, he will
not talk to you about what he
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:does and purpose and all that.
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:He's going to talk to you for
hours about the 4 million bees.
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:That he buys on a yearly basis, because
this is what's going to guarantee
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:the way to look for re imagining
global agriculture and food systems.
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:And when you speak to people in the
company, that's what they live for.
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:Whether you are at C Suite or
you are indeed the head of the
360
:farming cooperative, you get it.
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:You get the bees, you
get the re imagination.
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:And you see how that comes
into the hands of people who
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:consume the product in the end.
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:So to listen to that purpose
statement hits, you know, the
365
:inspiration aspiration piece, the
role, the impact is not explicit,
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:but you can almost live and feel it.
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:And that's why I love it.
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:Bev Attfield: Well, thank you,
Pat, for that example too.
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:And really what I'm coming away with
is this feeling of, yes, it's great to
370
:have a beautifully crafted statement,
but really what you need is the action
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:that sits behind it and the ability
to inspire those who are within the
372
:organization to really be pointing
towards that impact that we want to have
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:and to be excited about the role that we
might play in impacting or contributing
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:to the world in whatever shape or form.
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:And oftentimes.
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:Purpose statements are an expression
of what we care about in the world.
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:And the next question that I have for both
of you is, Why do you care about purpose?
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:Like, what led you to feel that you
wanted to commit and dedicate your
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:professional and personal energy and
appetite around something like purpose?
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:Pat Dwyer: It's probably one of those
questions that you, you want to kind
381
:of come back to if it was an exam
and you'll take it last, you know,
382
:you want to just digest everything.
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:I can see Laurie just nodding.
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:So yeah.
385
:But, and yet it envelops everything
that we've been doing for so long.
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:I think for me, there was a
moment in leaving my previous job.
387
:And somebody said to me, you're
really good at convening people and
388
:then finding how good they are, but
you don't try and do it for them.
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:I had no idea what that
means or something like that.
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:I'm paraphrasing.
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:Then I went into an exercise of
understanding what that gift was.
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:And it was then that I started
kind of crafting my own purpose
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:statement, which was quite simply.
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:Igniting the fire so you can light up
the room and, you know, you go through
395
:this whole process of, of nailing
that, but it is, it is what I do.
396
:I surround myself with experts and
experienced folks like yourselves
397
:and my team who I will never come
this close to in terms of depth
398
:and, and talent and capability.
399
:But somebody has to set that
up so that they can shine.
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:And it's interesting because
I started with that and I, and
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:somebody said to me, sustainability
is just going to get bigger.
402
:You should build something.
403
:And I didn't know what that meant.
404
:I was never an entrepreneur, but this
is what we wanted to go into and build.
405
:How could we ignite the fire in
companies so they can light up
406
:the room in the with the end of.
407
:Being a force for good as a business
because we are in sustainability.
408
:And so we guide leaders to evolve
business as a force for good.
409
:Thanks, Laurie.
410
:Laurie had, may have had something to
do with that purpose statement too.
411
:But yeah, so you can see how your
personal purpose does connect with what
412
:it is that you do in an organization.
413
:And I think that is very.
414
:Very critical in making sure that
you become one of those activators,
415
:as you said earlier, that it
doesn't just sit as a phrase.
416
:Hmm.
417
:Bev Attfield: Well, there's something in
what you just spoke about that lets me
418
:think about authenticity and credibility.
419
:And it's the same for our
personal purpose as it is for an
420
:organization's purpose, isn't it?
421
:That we need to have both of those
things present in order for it to
422
:be something that we can truly live
and see expressed in the world.
423
:So thank you, Pat.
424
:Laurie, why do you personally
care about purpose in business?
425
:Laurie Bennett: I mean, for a lot of the
reasons we've talked about already, to
426
:some extent, and like, and some shared
sense of what Pat was talking about there,
427
:too, I think there's some combination
of what I love to do and what I feel
428
:is the meaningful work that's needed in
the world, I guess and for me, purpose
429
:is a lovely intersection between those
two things, like I think the, what it
430
:really appeals to me about the Act of
finding purpose inside a business is
431
:that it's a beautiful moment of clarity.
432
:That you create in that moment, there's
so much complexity inside businesses and
433
:the systems that businesses are there's
so much complexity in the challenges
434
:that need to get solved out there in the
world, the really big ones like climate
435
:change and social justice, and some of
the smaller ones about how do people feel
436
:like the work that the time of their life
that they spend at work is time spent
437
:in a meaningful pursuit of some kind,
and all of you can sort of trace all of
438
:those threads back, I think, to something
like purpose, which is just this super
439
:simple, super meaningful articulation
of what we're here to do together.
440
:And I think revolving out of that simple
idea comes ways of collaborating, ways
441
:of seeing the world, ways of seeing
other people that has the potential
442
:to fundamentally change how we.
443
:Operate as businesses and
how we operate in society.
444
:I think businesses are little systems.
445
:And if you can change the way those
systems believe into what those systems
446
:believe that they're here to do and
align a bunch of people around going
447
:out and putting their energy towards.
448
:doing something that makes the world
better at the same time as kind of
449
:fueling them financially and doing all
the other things that jobs need to do.
450
:If you can do that in the sense of
a business, then I think you open up
451
:the idea in people's minds that it's
possible to do that kind of thing
452
:more in a society and you start
to show people a different kind of
453
:belief around, Hey, we can create
systems that are more equitable.
454
:We can create systems that allow us to
work towards a kind of communal good.
455
:And there's something very
cool about getting to.
456
:Do that with businesses and getting
to do that with leaders and watching
457
:how they really fuel themselves and
are able to kind of align their own
458
:passions with what they, the kind of
organizations they're trying to grow and
459
:the kind of world they're trying to make.
460
:Bev Attfield: Thanks Laurie.
461
:And, and I think it's, That's going to
nicely take us into the next part of
462
:our discussion here around like both
what you Laurie and Pat were talking
463
:about is a very positive way of being
it's it's a like it's we almost have
464
:the privilege of being able to speak
about purpose quite comfortably now and
465
:perhaps that wasn't always the case and
Pat, you've spoken already about how
466
:many businesses and some still are, or
most still are, let's be honest, are,
467
:are profit focused, not purpose driven.
468
:And I guess what I'm curious about is
what's happened over the last decade
469
:that has allowed us to get to the place
that we are now, where we can be in an
470
:executive boardroom and have a meaningful,
serious conversation about purpose, which
471
:wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.
472
:Most likely for most companies.
473
:Both of you have been leading
businesses squarely focused
474
:on purpose for almost 10 years.
475
:You've seen a lot, you've run up
against some struggles and, and into
476
:some obstacles, I'm sure you've had
to, , tease out and perfect your
477
:powers of persuasion to make your
case for why purpose is necessary and
478
:critical for business to flourish.
479
:So let's just take a moment and think
about like what's actually changed between
480
:then and now to give us the privilege
and the opportunity that we have today
481
:to have purpose as a driver for business.
482
:So, Pat, what have you seen?
483
:Over the last 10 years, that's,
you know, really changed.
484
:That gives us the
opportunity we have today.
485
:, Pat Dwyer: it's a lovely confluence
of all the drivers, right?
486
:And it just gets to that tipping point.
487
:And if it was the pandemic
that cracked it, so be it.
488
:We had one common client who insisted we.
489
:work with them on their
purpose, values and ambition
490
:journey in the thick of covid.
491
:So that was september to december.
492
:And we did that together with within
and it was so powerful because they
493
:insisted that they will not get out of
this not knowing what kind of culture
494
:it was they needed to be different.
495
:Of course, that's not going to transform
65 years of doing something a different
496
:way, but they had the recognition.
497
:So that's the first thing.
498
:I think there is a recognition that
business as usual, if you want to call
499
:it, that isn't serving us anymore.
500
:We want to say, you know, if the
world is on fire, who cares if
501
:you've got the biggest market share.
502
:That's of no use to anybody.
503
:So this whole business as usual sitting
with profit is your purpose got us
504
:to profit maximization, which meant
profit at all costs and profit at
505
:all costs left us this world that we
are in on fire, but we're still here.
506
:There is still that 1.
507
:5 degrees or whatever it is that we could
be saying is the one chance that we get.
508
:And, and when leaders come to us
today, they, there is a recognition
509
:that that one chance requires
far more than the sustainability
510
:strategy that they work with us on.
511
:That one chance has to be, we
have to behave differently.
512
:We have to show up differently.
513
:Our culture has to move.
514
:So there is that.
515
:On the other side.
516
:When you work with family
conglomerates, multi generational
517
:businesses, we're seeing a lot of
the next generation already ripe,
518
:as Laurie said earlier, right?
519
:The millennials are, are demanding this of
their employers and wanting transparency.
520
:So if you are in fact at the seat
of power, You know, fortunate enough
521
:to be driving business and not
needing to work your way at the top.
522
:You want the business to keep the legacy
of the founding family, but to adopt
523
:a changing times as they did perhaps
two, three generations prior, right?
524
:So , there's these
inflection moments that come.
525
:And so when you sort of bring all
of those together, this is another
526
:one that's sort of driving the.
527
:Could we do things differently?
528
:Could our unique strategic
contribution be the next 75 years?
529
:It's, it's fascinating.
530
:So we're working with, I guess,
they're almost the same age, 189
531
:years, you know, in business, and I
remember the early conversations with
532
:them saying, well, we got this far.
533
:Didn't need a purpose statement.
534
:Why should that change?
535
:And it was actually the children
who are in their mid thirties, mid
536
:forties coming and said, the one thing
that's different is that I'm here now.
537
:This is my lifetime.
538
:And so it's a lifetime of however
many employees that we have and
539
:our pressures are different.
540
:And that's, that's really powerful as
a uniting force to carry the legacy
541
:on of the business, but also be in.
542
:You know, in step in keeping
in relevant with the times.
543
:Bev Attfield: Yeah.
544
:There's something in there as well about
the, the urgency that is now with us.
545
:And I think like you said, Pat, I think
that there are a few forces at play,
546
:but not least of which generational
shift that Laurie also touched on,
547
:on earlier, that is forcing us to.
548
:behave in a different way and that is
leading us to make different decisions.
549
:We know that there's a lot more
work to be done there and we'd love
550
:to see it accelerate even more.
551
:But Lori, maybe I'll ask you a different
question just to give us some nuance to
552
:this around why has it been so hard for
us to get to this point when we've made
553
:it, like, it's very clear to us sitting
around this table that we, we know this,
554
:the strategic function that Purpose can
serve for us and that it needs to be
555
:something at the heart of what we do.
556
:But why has it been so hard for us to
get to the point that we are today?
557
:Laurie Bennett: Yeah.
558
:I love that question and that's something
that Pat was saying that I love that
559
:story Pat about the business has been
going for 189 years without a purpose
560
:statement and the legitimacy of being
able to turn around and say that's
561
:worked out rather well for us so far.
562
:But I think there's a, there's an
Saying that I love, which is that
563
:the stone age didn't end because
we ran out of stones, right?
564
:We found better ways of doing stuff
that actually just served us better.
565
:But you can imagine trying to persuade
people who had used stones for
566
:thousands of years to do stuff that
this other thing that I cooked up in a
567
:fire by mistake is actually going to.
568
:Be a better alternative.
569
:So I think there's something, there's
something in here about shifting
570
:mindsets and attitudes and pushing
against an inertia built on tradition.
571
:You know, the traditions of what it
means to lead a very kind of masculine
572
:ideals of control and authority and.
573
:Amassing power and power sort of taking
the form of wealth in most places.
574
:Like all of this is still super powerful
forces that exist in that space.
575
:A lot of businesses pursuing a profit
first agenda have enormous wealth gathered
576
:up and they use that to get in the way
of legislation and progress that might.
577
:See their slightly old fashioned ways made
harder in order to enable new thoughts
578
:and approaches to come into place.
579
:And I think when you kind of zoom all
the way, you can go right out from that
580
:sort of political legislative environment
that incentivizes certain kinds of
581
:businesses or not, but you can pull
that all the way back through just the.
582
:Structure of businesses and business
models that people get taught in
583
:business schools and understand
to be the way we do business.
584
:Right back through to the kind of
personal, very personal challenge that
585
:falls on an individual leader when they're
being asked to create some significant
586
:shift in the way that their organization
operates and the risk that feels inherent
587
:in that, that it might all go wrong.
588
:And I think it takes a certain courage
and a certain ambition to decide
589
:that you are going to point your.
590
:Organization in a different direction
and that you are going to work
591
:it in service of something else.
592
:And I think, you know, we do this a lot.
593
:We get the opportunity to talk to a lot
of people who feel quite comfortable
594
:in this space, but the, we can't
underestimate the size of the ask that is,
595
:Hey, please fundamentally try something
different here and see what happens.
596
:And I think that, you know, in some ways,
the, the thing that's got us over the
597
:last 10 years to where we are right now,
hasn't been necessarily a minimization
598
:of how important profit is, it's been an
alignment between purposeful business
599
:and profitable business and are starting
to really, leaders starting to see
600
:that if you have a powerful sense of
purpose, it's actually better Uh huh.
601
:For your business, provided your
business is doing, making some
602
:positive contribution into the world.
603
:And I think there's something beautiful
about the way that purpose starts to sort
604
:out the folks who are wanting to continue.
605
:To kind of maximize profit at any cost,
as you said, Pat, and who are putting out
606
:purpose statements that are inauthentic
or that are designed to kind of patch
607
:up a reputation rather than really shape
the strategy of how a business operates.
608
:And I think we've been, we've been
through that curve and we continue
609
:to go through it even now of the sort
of people jumping on the bandwagon
610
:of purpose and de legitimizing it by
sort of claiming to be doing it whilst
611
:really having no intention of shifting
the way that their business works.
612
:Like I remember when BP changed from
British Petroleum to Beyond Petroleum.
613
:As their kind of badge and they bought
that nice flowery logo out and they
614
:were full of purpose and then Deepwater
Horizon happened and it just exposed
615
:the fact that really nothing had
changed in the way that the organization
616
:understood how it needed to operate.
617
:And I think at that moment people go,
ah, this purpose thing is just a, it's
618
:just a badge that people are putting on.
619
:What they're doing to try and impress
people, I think as more and more
620
:organizations start to step into
doing it properly, we're starting
621
:to see now a kind of restoration
of trust behind real purposeful
622
:business and how that can just make.
623
:Business better as well as
the world better around it.
624
:Pat Dwyer: So good.
625
:I can't let that pass because
Laurie has touched on the massive
626
:amount of work this entails,
which does not make it attractive.
627
:You're asking them to
change fundamentally.
628
:You're asking them to pay for it.
629
:Sink in the time.
630
:And just trust the process,
I mean, come on, right?
631
:This is an entire lifetime that
you're changing, particularly
632
:for senior level, for example.
633
:But the flip side, the clarity
that it gives you, it's so easy to
634
:say yes or no to certain decisions
when your purpose is clear.
635
:And I think that is what you're
asking for, Bev, are there people
636
:that see the potential of that now?
637
:Yes.
638
:I remember working with organizations
who've walked out of meetings with
639
:me seven, eight years ago, who are
now at the same side of the table.
640
:You're too early.
641
:You're, you know, five years
too early, Pat, but we got here.
642
:See, we got here and now we're ready.
643
:And they're quite proud
of that, , recognition.
644
:It's, it's really fascinating when
it clicks and what I'm excited by is.
645
:How many more times do we have
to use, you know, a slide on
646
:the business case of purpose?
647
:Because I can see it slowly fading,
the question on what is purpose?
648
:That's less and less.
649
:Two years ago, that was the
only slide they would go for.
650
:Today, fast forward to the how.
651
:And how did they do it and
how is it right for us?
652
:And how do we bite size it?
653
:Is there such a thing?
654
:Or how do we go on the full journey,
but face it together with all the
655
:other changes that we're going through?
656
:So yeah, I, you know,
why would you not do it?
657
:If this is the hardest thing
you're going to do, because
658
:it is the right thing to do.
659
:Bev Attfield: Well, I think it's
encouraging to hear from both
660
:of you that like the flywheel
is starting to move, isn't it?
661
:It's, it's been a little slow,
but it's, it is gaining momentum.
662
:It is, we now have greater awareness.
663
:We now have more leaders who are
standing up and saying, no, we
664
:need to be authentic in this.
665
:We need to not.
666
:Be green, I guess the equivalent of
greenwashing purpose, washing, right.
667
:To be able to use the purpose as
a front for some business endeavor
668
:that is really just rooted in profit.
669
:So we, we are seeing this, this
traction starting to take hold.
670
:We know that there are still
many more difficult conversations
671
:to come and, and, , really we.
672
:As, as folks who are at the
forefront of this , we need to
673
:be making the case for purpose.
674
:And sometimes it's frustrating because it
should be very obvious and it shouldn't
675
:be that hard to understand that by
investing in this, you not only get an
676
:impact in your business, but guess what?
677
:You're going to get a ton of profit too.
678
:Because if you act in this way, and you
really believe in what you're doing.
679
:The chances are that you're, the
business is going to take care of
680
:itself because you've got this really
strong core belief in why you're here.
681
:Okay, so that's all fair and well.
682
:We know that it takes work.
683
:We know that it takes investment.
684
:We know that changing minds is hard.
685
:So what if a leader or a group of leaders
or an executive team decides to do this?
686
:What's the reward that they're
going to get for doing this work?
687
:There has to be some
return on the investment.
688
:Other than knowing that they're,
they're doing good for the world.
689
:But I want to know what does being
purpose centric unlock for a business?
690
:Laurie Bennett: Yeah, I think I, I
tend to start with kind of meaning
691
:and direction are the two things
that it brings first and foremost.
692
:So I think if you're, if you're
operating without a purpose, there's
693
:something missing, that's the.
694
:That kind of thing that connects
somebody's passion to the work that they
695
:do, and then understanding that they are
in pursuit of doing something that matters
696
:and that, that matters to a lot of people.
697
:And the direction being kind of, as
you're proactively setting strategy and
698
:making big decisions about what markets,
products, other things you might want to
699
:grow into, there's something there that
acts as that that kind of point of light
700
:in the sky that can guide those kinds of
difficult decisions, which gets especially
701
:important when there's a lot of change
going on in and around a business, that
702
:there's this immovable idea, which helps
us kind of navigate and calibrate where
703
:we're going and why we're going there.
704
:That feels really important,
to give you an example.
705
:One of the clients that we work with
in South Africa is Woolworths, which
706
:is a major food and fashion retailer
and they've got 26, 000 staff at all
707
:levels of the business hierarchy.
708
:They set a purpose which is about creating
spaces where you feel connected, inspired,
709
:and cared for, that their stores are
more than places to come and transact,
710
:but they represent something in the
communities that they're in, they create
711
:an experience for the people who are
in them, and having set that purpose,
712
:it's been so interesting to watch how
that has been able to unify a number of
713
:people In that kind of volume, align them
around, here's what we're really here to
714
:do and how that translates into the way
that they treat each other inside their
715
:teams, the way they lead each other.
716
:During the pandemic, again, that
purpose caused them to decide when to
717
:close stores at Economic disadvantage
for the safety of their staff, when
718
:to keep them open and how, how to deal
with people who suffered bereavement
719
:and challenges through that time.
720
:It was the purpose that was the thing
that kept getting referred to, to keep
721
:them moving at a time of huge uncertainty.
722
:We're watching it now translate into a
customer experience of, if that's the
723
:The idea that what we're here to do, how
does that inform and affect a customer
724
:experience that's built around human
connection and the love we have for our
725
:fellow people and how we serve them in
line with that and what that does to a
726
:customer service experience in that way.
727
:In South Africa, they have Real challenges
and mandates legally around inclusive
728
:justice and starting to see how when
you hold a purpose like that, it
729
:compels you into acting in the way that
says, Hey, everyone who walks into our
730
:store deserves to be treated and feel
the way that they do, whether they're
731
:employed here or whether they shop here.
732
:So this one idea.
733
:Is starting to infiltrate all the
commercial and cultural aspects of
734
:that business that's leading to them
being able to cope with uncertainty
735
:and be more resilient through
upturns and downturns in the economy
736
:and in the society around them.
737
:It's helping them attract, retain
and develop their staff to be able
738
:to work in the ways that allows
their business to work best.
739
:It's causing them to start
to become a major player in
740
:conversations around inclusive
justice in South African society.
741
:All of which is contributing back into.
742
:The success that they
have as an organization.
743
:Bev Attfield: And there's something in
there, Laurie, about how invested they
744
:have been in bringing that into every
pore of that organization, isn't there?
745
:And the commitments that have
been made at every level to be
746
:in alignment with that purpose.
747
:And
748
:Laurie Bennett: it's been
seven, seven years of sort of.
749
:Uncovering it, finding it, and
embedding it, and starting to live
750
:it, and they're still working on it.
751
:Like these, this process of
finding purpose isn't a three
752
:month copywriting jaunt.
753
:It's once you got it, the real
work starts, unfortunately, which
754
:is how do you align every part
of what you do to this core idea,
755
:yeah, and make sure it's living it.
756
:Bev Attfield: Wonderful.
757
:Thank you for that example, Laurie, and
it just demonstrates how purpose can
758
:really be something that we come back to
regardless of what's going on around us.
759
:And purpose isn't just for those
moments of joy in the world.
760
:It's really what helps us navigate
through anything that we might have to
761
:encounter as a business with a group of
people working towards a common goal.
762
:So, really great example.
763
:Thank you.
764
:Laurie.
765
:Petra, what is having Purpose Unlock
for a business from your perspective?
766
:What have you seen from some
clients you've worked with?
767
:Share, share with us
what your thoughts are.
768
:Pat Dwyer: Yeah, I'll, I'll
extend from where Laurie left
769
:us with meaning and direction.
770
:I think it's meaning,
direction, the clarity of it.
771
:That's the big unlock because
once that is Not clear, not only
772
:because it's articulated, clear
because it means something to every
773
:single last individual at the back
of the factory or the shop floor.
774
:The power it unleashes is extraordinary.
775
:So again, I'll, I'll use, you know,
South Africa or South America.
776
:East Asia, Southeast Asia, where you
find a lot of the distribution networks
777
:of companies that are headquartered
in the U S or in Europe, let's say.
778
:And we get those regional offices
coming to us saying HQ has given
779
:us a purpose statement with an eye
roll doesn't mean a thing here.
780
:You know what we do, right?
781
:We're limited.
782
:We don't make anything.
783
:We're just a distribution.
784
:We stock the shelves or we get
it from point A to point B.
785
:And that's always very difficult
because you can already feel with
786
:that ask, they don't have agency,
they are disengaged, but there is
787
:that one thing that's going for them,
which is they want to be part of it.
788
:And the clarity and the meaning that comes
from, so there is a brand whose purpose
789
:is creating beauty that moves the world.
790
:And you can just imagine.
791
:The APAC office going, we don't
create, there is no beauty in what we
792
:do, literally, we stock the shelves.
793
:We only deal with our suppliers and
our transport partners and the malls
794
:and the boutiques that we work with.
795
:That's our world.
796
:That's not beautiful.
797
:Sure, the product when it's in your hand
is, but we have nothing to do with that.
798
:So how am I going to
build meaning around this?
799
:And yet, when you go through the process
with them, beauty and moves, the world
800
:mean completely different things to them.
801
:Whereas when you go to the HQ, they
feel like they can't move anything.
802
:All they do is make.
803
:So actually there is this, there is this
opportunity to get the last IT person,
804
:the last finance accountant, the intern,
the tea lady, who is not client facing,
805
:not in the most exciting of the jobs.
806
:If, if the job is really sort of.
807
:You know, very consumer facing in that
respect, but if you can bring them along
808
:and the disenfranchised disappears,
then you can talk empowerment, then
809
:you have all the right to talk about
inclusion and put metrics in it.
810
:How dare you say that when you've
never engaged them in the process of
811
:getting to the purpose statement, right?
812
:So when Laurie says you know, the real
work starts once you've cracked it.
813
:I know we're not selling this really well.
814
:It's hard work.
815
:It's long.
816
:It's nonstop.
817
:And once you've articulated it,
you've got to renew the vows.
818
:And you've really, you know,
you really have to keep going
819
:with it each and every time.
820
:But I think that change process
gives you the You matter moment to
821
:each and every individual staff.
822
:What if you're 40, 000 strong, if your
supply chain actually believes it, and
823
:you show up when you say you believe
in people as your biggest asset, right?
824
:Then treating them.
825
:And they will go miles and
miles for you when that's clear.
826
:So I think that is what's exciting.
827
:And at least now people are listening.
828
:You know, I know we've kind of
veiled this with it's positive.
829
:The interest is there.
830
:The awareness is there.
831
:That's still a minority Bev.
832
:And I think this is, I have to caveat
everything with this is still hard
833
:work when you get into a conversation
because the pushback is real.
834
:We got to chip away.
835
:We're going to keep doing it.
836
:This is what.
837
:Waits for you on the other side and
it's just that dangling action of,
838
:you know, look what you could have.
839
:Bev Attfield: Well, I think it's a,
you know, the, I don't know what the
840
:exact quote is or the saying is, but
it's something along the lines of
841
:nothing worth doing is ever easy.
842
:And I think it's keeping an eye on where
we want our business to be and the impact
843
:that we want to have and what we want.
844
:To offer to people who come and work with
us and the clients that we're serving,
845
:we have to realize that it, it isn't
going to be something that can just come
846
:from a few words that we throw out onto
a page or onto the wall or our website.
847
:It's really what meaning we build into
those words and what it looks like
848
:when we start to live those words.
849
:And that takes a lot of
time and a lot of effort.
850
:As you were talking about, you know, how
you convince leaders to take this on.
851
:It sounds a little bit about you know,
when my husband was convincing me to
852
:sign up to do a triathlon for the first
time, you know, he didn't really make
853
:the case of very compelling one or one
that I really wanted to be part of.
854
:But once I thought about the benefits that
I would get and, you know, the experience
855
:that I was going to have, I came around
to the idea, maybe, maybe similar for, for
856
:leaders who are sitting, listening to this
I'm very sorry to say that we're starting
857
:to get to the end of our time together.
858
:And , I know that this
is a conversation that.
859
:Is just the start of scratching
the surface really around what
860
:purpose is, why it's necessary for
us to have it and the things that
861
:it can unlock for, for business.
862
:And, you know, we really believe that
purpose should be our first step.
863
:As we start to craft purposeful business.
864
:And I'm just really grateful
to hear from both of you today.
865
:And I know that for our listeners,
that there's a lot more that we could
866
:chat about, and I wouldn't invite folks
to reach out to each of you directly
867
:if they want to ask you specific
questions and continue the conversation.
868
:So with that in mind, what's the
best way for folks to get a hold
869
:of both of you, if they wish to do
so, Pat, how can they reach you?
870
:Pat Dwyer: LinkedIn is active,
so you'll find me on LinkedIn.
871
:We can pop in the profile link there.
872
:And www.
873
:thepurposebusiness.
874
:com send us an email and tell us
what's on your mind and I'm sure we'll
875
:find a way to get you to Purpose.
876
:Thanks.
877
:Bev Attfield: Laurie,
how can people find you?
878
:Laurie Bennett: Yeah, just the same.
879
:So on LinkedIn is Laurie Bennett
and come to withinpeople.
880
:com and drop us a note through
the contact page there.
881
:Bev Attfield: Okay.
882
:Before we head off into our respective
worlds and days and evenings Laurie,
883
:Pat, could you share your 30 second
advice for a leader who wants to find
884
:purpose for their organization today?
885
:And the answer cannot be, please
call me in the next two days.
886
:Call
887
:Laurie.
888
:Well done, Pat.
889
:Well done.
890
:Okay.
891
:Pat, 30 seconds.
892
:What's your advice?
893
:Pat Dwyer: Look inside.
894
:And speak to your people about why they
think you exist as an organization.
895
:And from there, it'll come.
896
:Brilliant.
897
:Bev Attfield: Laurie?
898
:Laurie Bennett: Yeah, I think
buckle in, probably based on
899
:what we've talked about today.
900
:I think as a leader, the thing
I would, my advice would be.
901
:Really think about the journey
that you are going to go
902
:on personally through this.
903
:Think about your own commitment
to the sort of change and
904
:courage it's going to ask of you.
905
:It's a tremendously rewarding journey,
but as you have no doubt gleaned from
906
:our perspectives today, it's It's
packed full of challenge and it's going
907
:to ask you to explore the things that
mean the most to you and probably make
908
:some pretty big decisions and sort
of set yourself up for a different
909
:pathway of how your business grows.
910
:So I think being as ready as it's
possible to be for some of that is
911
:a great precursor to stepping into,
to a journey of finding and then
912
:living the purpose that you find.
913
:Bev Attfield: Well, thank you, Laurie.
914
:Thank you, Pat, for joining us today and
for leading this conversation on purpose.
915
:I feel like this is a 10 part
series and this was part one.
916
:Laurie Bennett: I can't wait for a sequel.
917
:Bev Attfield: I don't know.
918
:I don't know if our audience.
919
:We'll, we'll be able to
handle 10, 10 pieces of this
920
:conversation, but I'm up for it.
921
:, thanks for listening, everyone.
922
:We really do hope that you
enjoyed this conversation.
923
:We're obviously passionate
about this topic.
924
:We believe this is the difference
that can make the difference
925
:that the world needs right now.
926
:. We're up for it and we are always looking
for folks to join us on this journey.
927
:So please do join the conversation, give
us a call, tell us what you're up to.
928
:What are you thinking about?
929
:What's inspiring you around
purpose and, you know, share
930
:learnings along the way too.
931
:We always love that.
932
:We love to know what's.
933
:People up and what's inspired people to
make their way further down this path.
934
:So thank you so much for being here.
935
:You can tune into our podcast every other
month for episodes on what's happening
936
:in the culture and leadership space.
937
:What's on the minds of leaders committed
to change in our community and other
938
:future of work content you crave.
939
:Reimagining Work From Within
is available wherever you're
940
:listening you listen to podcasts.
941
:And we'd love
942
:to hear what you thought
about today's episode.
943
:Thanks very much.
944
:And we'll see you soon.
945
:Laurie Bennett: All right, Bev.