In this month's episode of Reimagining Work From Within, partners Bev Attfield and Laurie Bennett are joined by special guest Pat Dwyer, founder of The Purpose Business. Delve into the world of purpose in business as they discuss the shifting mindsets in leadership and changing expectations in the workforce. From successful family-owned businesses like Amy's Kitchen to major retail chains like Woolworths, learn how purpose can impact decision-making, create a sense of connection, and drive positive change within organisations and society. Tune in and join us as we explore the transformative power of purpose in the world of work!

Learn more about The Purpose Business or get in touch with Pat here.

Learn more about Within People or get in touch with Laurie or Bev.

Well, hello everybody, and welcome back to

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re imagining work from within.

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I'm Bev Atfield, a partner at Within

based in San Diego, California in the USA.

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And I am very excited about

today's conversation, which is

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a purposeful chat about purpose.

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And with me today Laurie

Bennett and Pat Dwyer.

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Laurie, you have heard

before on this podcast.

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He is one of my fellow partners

and a co founder of within people

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based in Vancouver, Canada.

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Pat is one of our longtime friends

and is founder and director of the

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purpose business based in London, UK.

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Welcome to both of you.

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Thank you very much.

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Hi there.

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This is a long overdue

conversation, isn't it?

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. We both both by both.

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I mean, within people and the purpose

business care a lot about purpose.

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And we have been wanting to have

this conversation for quite some

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time now, because we're really

excited about our partnership.

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We're really excited about what we

can achieve in the world together.

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And I am.

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Really excited to be leading this

conversation to unpack what we care about,

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why we believe in purpose and what it

means for us as we go forth into the world

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to make the impact that we want to have.

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So that's enough from

me for the time being.

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I'd love to invite both of you to

just give us a bit of a sense of how

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do we know each other and why, why

do we care so much about purpose?

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So Pet, how do you know us

and what do you love about us?

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Pat Dwyer: Gosh, this is a decade

long friendship slash cousinhood slash

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everything else that we've been dreaming

of and, and even this podcast, we had, you

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know, so many times we said we will do it.

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I can't believe we're here now, Laurie.

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And I also can't believe that I

haven't seen Laurie since Gosh,

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was that 2016 I saw you last?

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Laurie Bennett: It seems like a long time

ago, and it seems like just the other day.

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I feel like this is a conversation

we've been waiting to have for a long

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time, but also it's been a conversation

we've been having for almost 10 years.

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So our challenge today is to try and

squeeze 10 years worth of conversation

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into the next 45 minutes or so, I think.

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And

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Pat Dwyer: to sound like you're hearing

it for the first time, even if we've said

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it again and again, but this is exciting.

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Laurie Bennett: For that whole 10

years, pretty much everything Pat has

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said about Purpose has been something

that I have found really delightful

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and insightful to listen to, so.

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Have no fear, Pat.

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Pat Dwyer: Very kind, very kind.

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I do think, you know, you, you have

charted a different way to get to

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purpose and it's intriguing how we've

come from a very different way, which

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I'm sure we'll talk about today.

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Bev Attfield: Well, and that's the, the

Beauty of this friendship, isn't it?

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Is that we might have different

opinions or we might have different

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experiences, but we come together

and converge around the importance of

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purpose in the business context and

how it is one of the key drivers for

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building businesses that can really

have a positive impact in the world.

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So I am honored to be the guide to this

conversation and I will do my best to

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take us into the nuance and, and the,

the delightful layers that make up our

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relationship, but also you know, part of

what we're trying to do today is really

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just unpack what purpose is and how

it can really help unlock so much for

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businesses and people in them if we get

it right, so let's get the journey going.

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Okay.

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So the first question that's that

I've been thinking about is why

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is now the golden moment for us to

bring our passion together as within

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people in the purpose business in

service of purpose led organization.

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So Laurie, Pat, could you each give us

your quick 30 second take on why now?

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Laurie Bennett: Sure, I don't think

there's ever a bad time to have

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this conversation, but there is

something that feels a little bit

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special about right now, as we look

out into the world of business and.

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And what's happening out here that

makes purpose almost extra interesting

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and relevant to, to talk about right

now, I think, from my perspective, a

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couple of the things that feel really

interesting about this, uh, number one,

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Is just watching how the world

of work has shifted this side

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of the coronavirus pandemic.

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Just the ways that we're working, the ways

that business is being asked to operate

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by the employees of those businesses.

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Who are putting a real premium

on what are we here to do?

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I think coming out of a social crisis

like that right out into an environmental

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crisis around climate change really has

brought it closer to mind the, the role

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that businesses play in society beyond

just generating profit for themselves.

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And I think that's come into the

sharpest ever focus right now.

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And it comes at the same time as we're

seeing a new generation of people.

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Really making up the bulk of the workforce

and starting to step into leadership

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positions, the millennials and the Gen

Z generations who well known to be

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very upfront with asking their employers

and expecting their employers to play

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a bigger role in society and who value

meaningful work extremely highly when

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they're choosing where they want to work.

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I think it's at the moment it's 63%.

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Of millennials say that the

primary purpose of a business

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should be about improving society.

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Not about generating profit.

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And that makes a conversation about

purpose really interesting, not just

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from the perspective of wanting to do

good in the world, but wanting to attract

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and retain and grow the brightest and

finest talent inside your business too.

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Bev Attfield: Juicy.

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Thanks, Laurie.

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And we're going to dig into some of those.

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Benefits that having a clear purpose

unlocks for a business later.

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Aren't we?

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I'm hearing things in their macro

micro shifts that have happened.

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You know, a lot has changed in the

world over the past three to five years.

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Pat, what are you seeing around, you

know, why this is the moment for us

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now building on and perhaps adding to

what Laurie had just shared with us?

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Pat Dwyer: Yeah, I mean, I echo

everything Laurie just has said.

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And on top of that, I guess if I put my

sort of Asia hat on, and I'm always of

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two minds doing this because I can't speak

for all of Asia, I don't dare do that.

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But from what we see, there is a phrase

that we coined last year, which seems to

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be accepted by leaders in Asia, which is

purpose has gone from fluff to function.

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And there's a, there's an acceptance

that they did call it fluff because

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they couldn't place it, whether it

sat up there in leadership retreats,

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Or down there in the quiet moments of

the staff when they're actually not

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working, you do it on a Sunday night.

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So what has changed apart from everything

that Laurie has said is the need for

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transformation as an organization is

now a knock at various doors of the

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same house, all at the same time.

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Whereas in the past, it might have

been something that the chairman,

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the chairman, because it's always

the chairman, would have said,

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because it's a moment of legacy.

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Or it might've been a

question in the employee.

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Kind of survey or questionnaire,

and it's down there in the

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AOB section of the agenda.

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Any other business, right?

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It's never right on top.

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What we're seeing is In this space

of sustainability, you have all

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of these difficult commitments,

hard targets that you're setting.

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And there are more and more leaders who

are coming to say that decarbonization

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is not the hardest thing we have to do.

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What actually is the hardest thing

to do is to bring the culture

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along and to change the business

models that we've called true.

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And correct, and upon which we've

based all our remuneration, rewards,

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and success metrics, right, on.

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And now it has to change

because there is something else

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that needs to get questioned.

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And that often is about the why you exist.

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So, and it's very exciting times for sure.

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Mm hmm,

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Bev Attfield: mm hmm.

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Yeah, and I really appreciate that

you expanded our view to the global

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perspective on this, Pat, because, you

know, obviously we, another beautiful

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dimension of our friendship is that

we find ourselves in different places

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around the world, and that gives us

The ability to actually see difference,

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but also to see where things are

converging around purpose, even though

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it might be the Asian or the North

American or the European context.

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Right.

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So that's, what's really beautiful about

the depth of how we are present in the

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world right now, and I'm going to invite

us to dig into that and give some examples

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of what that might look like in those

different contexts a little bit later.

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But what I'm also hearing from you

is how the shift has gone from being

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something that , it's nice to have to

something that is a strategic driver.

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So purpose is now at the forefront of

our conversations and our considerations.

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And we we're knitting it into the

very fiber of our workplaces and

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our cultures that we are creating

within those organizations, which

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is a little bit different from a

number of years ago, where it was

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just the side of the desk thing.

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It was maybe the thing that, you know.

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Just the HR manager did, or the

social committee did as an extension

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of, you know, why we're here.

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So this is really exciting times, I think.

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But I think one question that is

arriving for me and maybe for some

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of our listeners, before we start

getting into the layers and the detail.

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And the complexity of, of purpose in

some moments what the heck is purpose?

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I think is the first question that I'm

holding because until we have a working

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definition of what it is we might

find ourselves going down some rabbit

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holes that our, our listeners won't

have a clear navigational system for.

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So let's just pause for a moment.

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Could you each give me your working

definition of purpose in the

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business context and Pat, I'll ask

you to go first when you're ready.

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Pat Dwyer: Sure.

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It is why you exist as a company or

an organization that contributes to

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overall wellbeing of people and planet.

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And I let that sink in because it will

hit you depending on what resonates

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in that entire sentence, right.

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But I remember being called the

purpose business, my God, what

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pressure did we put on ourselves?

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But in 2015, when we started,

I had founders and CEOs going,

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good luck with your charity path.

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Profit is my purpose.

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What are you talking about?

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And of course that is the reason they

existed is to double the market share,

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grow the market segment, you know, and,

and, and that is the measure of success.

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But today, when you look at.

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The question on why it sits in strategy

now is because there's got to be something

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bigger than profit maximization, the

profit at all costs, you know, which has

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brought us to things like climate change

and to things like social inequality.

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There has to be something that

business should exist for, and

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that we can dig into this later.

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It is wellbeing of people and planet.

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Bev Attfield: Interesting.

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Laurie, what's your take on it?

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Laurie Bennett: I love that.

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It's, it's very similar.

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I think there's so many

different definitions of purpose

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floating about in the world.

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I think there's certain

bits that they all agree on.

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And that piece that sits still at the

heart of it for us is why, you know, it's

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the reason for existing as a business.

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It's.

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As a result, it's the source of meaning

and direction in the work that we do.

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It becomes a sort of a description

of the role that we play in the

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vision that we have for the world.

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And we ask ourselves, what difference do

we want to make in the world around us?

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Our purpose is the role we play

in, in making that difference.

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It's the, it's not a goal

that we set for ourselves.

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It's the passion.

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That we have, that fuels us to go

and achieve the goals we do set.

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And I think the, the way I really

love that idea of this, of the sense

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of it as a contribution, and I think

we really talk about purpose as

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representing the contribution, the

positive contribution to the world that

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we make simply by being in business.

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And I think there's something really

important about that last piece that

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speaks to a little bit about what you

were saying a moment ago, Bev, which is

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your purpose isn't something separate

to what you do as a business in many

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ways, it's not something to the side

that speaks to here's the good stuff that

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we do while we're doing all these other

things over here, making these products

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and services, our purposes, something.

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Repairs the damage of doing those things.

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Purpose is about saying that the very

stuff that we do, the products that

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we make, the services that we put out

there, the very act of doing those things

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leaves a positive impact on our society,

on our community, on our environment.

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And it's, for me, it's the role

that it plays in knitting that.

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Right into the strategy of the

business that makes it exciting.

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Pat Dwyer: I can just build on that.

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That's it.

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It's so powerful to say role.

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And I love how Laurie

has just kind of almost.

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You know, focused us into what

would happen if you weren't

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there, dear organization.

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What would we be missing?

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Because someone else will

concoct the shampoo ingredients.

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Someone else will build another mall.

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Someone else will, you know, there's

always competition, but this point

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on the unique strategic contribution

of a business, this is really

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what I think is exciting because.

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Of course, there's many of you in that

competing market, but there is something

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about you that makes it different.

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And, and we'll get to the

experience a little bit later on.

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Right.

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But when we say what's in your hand

as an organization, a lot of things

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will fall through, but what is

right in the middle, what stays is

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that unique strategic contribution.

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And we say that leads to

wellbeing of people on planet

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because you can't be purposeful.

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and not be a responsible business.

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Laurie Bennett: Yeah.

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Bev Attfield: Okay.

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So what I'm hearing is this is about

the why it's about the contribution

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to the world that we want to have.

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It is what sits at the heart of,

of what guides us as a business.

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And oftentimes the only expression that

we see of that is Someone's purpose

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statement that gets trotted out in

some sort of marketing campaign or is

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on their swag or is made visible to us

somehow, because often we don't have the

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opportunity to look under the hood and see

purpose at play within an organization.

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So in the spirit of celebrating

those purpose expressions that we

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love and that inspire us what would

be an example from each of you of a

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purpose statement that you admire?

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And why?

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Laurie Bennett: Oh, Bev, it's like

asking me to choose my favorite child.

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How can I do this?

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I love all my purposes

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Pat Dwyer: equally.

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Laurie Bennett: Shut the door, Laurie.

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Yeah.

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I'd, because it was difficult.

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I, I think there's two

that I would look at.

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And for similar but

slightly different reasons.

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One's a client of ours and an

organization that we've worked with for

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a long time, which is Amy's Kitchen.

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Who, if you don't know them, are what

we're kind of putting frozen vegetarian,

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sustainably sourced meals out into the

world before that was something that

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was cool and done by a lot of people.

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They're a family owned business and.

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The journey of finding purpose with them

was about really trying to tap into what

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motivated the family to start the business

and to try and kind of encapsulate what

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it really means to them to be in the

business of creating and shipping frozen

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vegetarian food now around the world.

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And the statement that they came

up with was make it easy and

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enjoyable for everyone to eat well.

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And the reason I love it is because

it's, it does what I really like in

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purpose statements, which is have

you not go, Oh my gosh, that sounds

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really sexy, but actually go, yeah,

of course, that's why you're here

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doing something, because it is it.

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Deeply authentic and true

rather than being crafted into a

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slogan or a strapline for them.

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And there's really core principles that

sit in that statement about the way that

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they operate their organization and the

way that they want to leave a mark in

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the world, which is about accessibility.

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And joy around food that is healthy

for people and healthy for the planet.

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It's sourced from and I can just see

how when they hold that purpose and when

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they speak to that purpose, and when you

see how they behave as an organization,

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the decisions that they make around

how they want to grow and around the

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different products that they want to

bring out around the ways that they

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market those around the ways that they

bring their staff in, there's something.

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Powerfully connected to that idea that

exists inside the business for it.

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And the other one that I really love is

Lego's purpose, which we did not help

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them make, but the idea of to inspire

and develop the builders of tomorrow

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is, is a really amazing picture because

if you know Lego, it didn't start out

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as little blocks that people build.

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It started out as wooden toys and

it's evolved that product and the

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way that we use it and understand

it has involved from being a.

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Toy that works a certain way to being

a whole system of enjoyment that

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works differently to now kind of

multimillion dollar movie franchises

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and all this other stuff that has been

able to grow up around this core idea

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guided by this idea of inspiring and

developing the builders of tomorrow.

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So something in there that's rich

in inspiration that talks about the

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role in using play to educate and

the idea of builders of tomorrow

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is just super clever because it.

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It enables them to hold a context

around the very nature of what they

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do, but also gives them the scope to

say that this is about how we create,

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we help grow people who are going

to grow a future that is positive

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for us and it's beautiful, I think.

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Thanks, Laurie.

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I

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Bev Attfield: love both of those

examples for different reasons.

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And I, I think I'm, I'm excited to

hear what Pat's going to share with

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us so that we can start to form a

picture of, you know, as experts in

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the field here, like what do we deem

to be well crafted purpose statements?

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And it's not just about clever words.

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It's about what sits behind those

words and it's the actions that

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come to bear because of those words.

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So, so Pat, what, what could you

add into the mix here to give us a

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flavor of Beautifully crafted purpose

statements that aren't just empty words.

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Pat Dwyer: Yeah.

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Well, first off, I think the, it's so

hard to find the beautiful crafting

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and you know, that you can activate it.

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It's easy to craft it.

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You know I could plug your other

podcast on AI taking a stab at it.

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And that's a scary term.

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To try and get to, but one of the

things that I do look for is always

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an explicit expression of the role

as Laurie was talking about earlier,

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the role of that unique strategic

contribution and the impact that you make.

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Now, sometimes you've got to go with what.

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Kind of rolls off the tongue

to the culture of the company.

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And one of my favorite ones does

not perfectly sit on the role and

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impact structure, but it tells you

what it is that they have been doing

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and what they will keep on doing.

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So OLAM is a 30 billion euro

turnover business in Asia.

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It's basically in the business of

food, feed and fiber from cacao to.

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Cashews to all sorts of raw materials

that go into products that we love

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or that we consume on a daily basis

operating in kind of 60 countries.

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But the founder is very much in

the middle of it right now, and he

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was the one that orchestrated this.

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And it was simply to really imagine

global agriculture and food systems.

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And I love it because no one is enthused

by global agriculture and food systems.

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on its own.

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But we know that that system is broken.

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We know that that system is battered

because of everything that we're facing.

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You know, almost kind of societally,

not just environmentally,

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politically, everything that kind

of contributes to the factor.

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And they have seen how The system

itself needs to continue feeding the

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stakeholders that they show up for and

all the companies that they provide you.

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And a lot of those just have

to change very basic things.

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So re imagining structures

for farming cooperatives, re

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imagining how you price seeds.

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When Ferghese, the CEO, he will

not talk to you about what he

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does and purpose and all that.

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He's going to talk to you for

hours about the 4 million bees.

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That he buys on a yearly basis, because

this is what's going to guarantee

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the way to look for re imagining

global agriculture and food systems.

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And when you speak to people in the

company, that's what they live for.

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Whether you are at C Suite or

you are indeed the head of the

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farming cooperative, you get it.

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You get the bees, you

get the re imagination.

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And you see how that comes

into the hands of people who

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consume the product in the end.

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So to listen to that purpose

statement hits, you know, the

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inspiration aspiration piece, the

role, the impact is not explicit,

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but you can almost live and feel it.

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And that's why I love it.

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Bev Attfield: Well, thank you,

Pat, for that example too.

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And really what I'm coming away with

is this feeling of, yes, it's great to

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have a beautifully crafted statement,

but really what you need is the action

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that sits behind it and the ability

to inspire those who are within the

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organization to really be pointing

towards that impact that we want to have

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and to be excited about the role that we

might play in impacting or contributing

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to the world in whatever shape or form.

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And oftentimes.

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Purpose statements are an expression

of what we care about in the world.

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And the next question that I have for both

of you is, Why do you care about purpose?

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Like, what led you to feel that you

wanted to commit and dedicate your

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professional and personal energy and

appetite around something like purpose?

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Pat Dwyer: It's probably one of those

questions that you, you want to kind

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of come back to if it was an exam

and you'll take it last, you know,

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you want to just digest everything.

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I can see Laurie just nodding.

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So yeah.

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But, and yet it envelops everything

that we've been doing for so long.

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I think for me, there was a

moment in leaving my previous job.

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And somebody said to me, you're

really good at convening people and

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then finding how good they are, but

you don't try and do it for them.

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I had no idea what that

means or something like that.

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I'm paraphrasing.

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Then I went into an exercise of

understanding what that gift was.

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And it was then that I started

kind of crafting my own purpose

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statement, which was quite simply.

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Igniting the fire so you can light up

the room and, you know, you go through

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this whole process of, of nailing

that, but it is, it is what I do.

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I surround myself with experts and

experienced folks like yourselves

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and my team who I will never come

this close to in terms of depth

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and, and talent and capability.

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But somebody has to set that

up so that they can shine.

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And it's interesting because

I started with that and I, and

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somebody said to me, sustainability

is just going to get bigger.

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You should build something.

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And I didn't know what that meant.

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I was never an entrepreneur, but this

is what we wanted to go into and build.

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How could we ignite the fire in

companies so they can light up

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the room in the with the end of.

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Being a force for good as a business

because we are in sustainability.

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And so we guide leaders to evolve

business as a force for good.

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Thanks, Laurie.

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Laurie had, may have had something to

do with that purpose statement too.

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But yeah, so you can see how your

personal purpose does connect with what

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it is that you do in an organization.

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And I think that is very.

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Very critical in making sure that

you become one of those activators,

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as you said earlier, that it

doesn't just sit as a phrase.

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Hmm.

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Bev Attfield: Well, there's something in

what you just spoke about that lets me

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think about authenticity and credibility.

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And it's the same for our

personal purpose as it is for an

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organization's purpose, isn't it?

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That we need to have both of those

things present in order for it to

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be something that we can truly live

and see expressed in the world.

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So thank you, Pat.

424

Laurie, why do you personally

care about purpose in business?

425

Laurie Bennett: I mean, for a lot of the

reasons we've talked about already, to

426

some extent, and like, and some shared

sense of what Pat was talking about there,

427

too, I think there's some combination

of what I love to do and what I feel

428

is the meaningful work that's needed in

the world, I guess and for me, purpose

429

is a lovely intersection between those

two things, like I think the, what it

430

really appeals to me about the Act of

finding purpose inside a business is

431

that it's a beautiful moment of clarity.

432

That you create in that moment, there's

so much complexity inside businesses and

433

the systems that businesses are there's

so much complexity in the challenges

434

that need to get solved out there in the

world, the really big ones like climate

435

change and social justice, and some of

the smaller ones about how do people feel

436

like the work that the time of their life

that they spend at work is time spent

437

in a meaningful pursuit of some kind,

and all of you can sort of trace all of

438

those threads back, I think, to something

like purpose, which is just this super

439

simple, super meaningful articulation

of what we're here to do together.

440

And I think revolving out of that simple

idea comes ways of collaborating, ways

441

of seeing the world, ways of seeing

other people that has the potential

442

to fundamentally change how we.

443

Operate as businesses and

how we operate in society.

444

I think businesses are little systems.

445

And if you can change the way those

systems believe into what those systems

446

believe that they're here to do and

align a bunch of people around going

447

out and putting their energy towards.

448

doing something that makes the world

better at the same time as kind of

449

fueling them financially and doing all

the other things that jobs need to do.

450

If you can do that in the sense of

a business, then I think you open up

451

the idea in people's minds that it's

possible to do that kind of thing

452

more in a society and you start

to show people a different kind of

453

belief around, Hey, we can create

systems that are more equitable.

454

We can create systems that allow us to

work towards a kind of communal good.

455

And there's something very

cool about getting to.

456

Do that with businesses and getting

to do that with leaders and watching

457

how they really fuel themselves and

are able to kind of align their own

458

passions with what they, the kind of

organizations they're trying to grow and

459

the kind of world they're trying to make.

460

Bev Attfield: Thanks Laurie.

461

And, and I think it's, That's going to

nicely take us into the next part of

462

our discussion here around like both

what you Laurie and Pat were talking

463

about is a very positive way of being

it's it's a like it's we almost have

464

the privilege of being able to speak

about purpose quite comfortably now and

465

perhaps that wasn't always the case and

Pat, you've spoken already about how

466

many businesses and some still are, or

most still are, let's be honest, are,

467

are profit focused, not purpose driven.

468

And I guess what I'm curious about is

what's happened over the last decade

469

that has allowed us to get to the place

that we are now, where we can be in an

470

executive boardroom and have a meaningful,

serious conversation about purpose, which

471

wouldn't have happened 10 years ago.

472

Most likely for most companies.

473

Both of you have been leading

businesses squarely focused

474

on purpose for almost 10 years.

475

You've seen a lot, you've run up

against some struggles and, and into

476

some obstacles, I'm sure you've had

to, , tease out and perfect your

477

powers of persuasion to make your

case for why purpose is necessary and

478

critical for business to flourish.

479

So let's just take a moment and think

about like what's actually changed between

480

then and now to give us the privilege

and the opportunity that we have today

481

to have purpose as a driver for business.

482

So, Pat, what have you seen?

483

Over the last 10 years, that's,

you know, really changed.

484

That gives us the

opportunity we have today.

485

, Pat Dwyer: it's a lovely confluence

of all the drivers, right?

486

And it just gets to that tipping point.

487

And if it was the pandemic

that cracked it, so be it.

488

We had one common client who insisted we.

489

work with them on their

purpose, values and ambition

490

journey in the thick of covid.

491

So that was september to december.

492

And we did that together with within

and it was so powerful because they

493

insisted that they will not get out of

this not knowing what kind of culture

494

it was they needed to be different.

495

Of course, that's not going to transform

65 years of doing something a different

496

way, but they had the recognition.

497

So that's the first thing.

498

I think there is a recognition that

business as usual, if you want to call

499

it, that isn't serving us anymore.

500

We want to say, you know, if the

world is on fire, who cares if

501

you've got the biggest market share.

502

That's of no use to anybody.

503

So this whole business as usual sitting

with profit is your purpose got us

504

to profit maximization, which meant

profit at all costs and profit at

505

all costs left us this world that we

are in on fire, but we're still here.

506

There is still that 1.

507

5 degrees or whatever it is that we could

be saying is the one chance that we get.

508

And, and when leaders come to us

today, they, there is a recognition

509

that that one chance requires

far more than the sustainability

510

strategy that they work with us on.

511

That one chance has to be, we

have to behave differently.

512

We have to show up differently.

513

Our culture has to move.

514

So there is that.

515

On the other side.

516

When you work with family

conglomerates, multi generational

517

businesses, we're seeing a lot of

the next generation already ripe,

518

as Laurie said earlier, right?

519

The millennials are, are demanding this of

their employers and wanting transparency.

520

So if you are in fact at the seat

of power, You know, fortunate enough

521

to be driving business and not

needing to work your way at the top.

522

You want the business to keep the legacy

of the founding family, but to adopt

523

a changing times as they did perhaps

two, three generations prior, right?

524

So , there's these

inflection moments that come.

525

And so when you sort of bring all

of those together, this is another

526

one that's sort of driving the.

527

Could we do things differently?

528

Could our unique strategic

contribution be the next 75 years?

529

It's, it's fascinating.

530

So we're working with, I guess,

they're almost the same age, 189

531

years, you know, in business, and I

remember the early conversations with

532

them saying, well, we got this far.

533

Didn't need a purpose statement.

534

Why should that change?

535

And it was actually the children

who are in their mid thirties, mid

536

forties coming and said, the one thing

that's different is that I'm here now.

537

This is my lifetime.

538

And so it's a lifetime of however

many employees that we have and

539

our pressures are different.

540

And that's, that's really powerful as

a uniting force to carry the legacy

541

on of the business, but also be in.

542

You know, in step in keeping

in relevant with the times.

543

Bev Attfield: Yeah.

544

There's something in there as well about

the, the urgency that is now with us.

545

And I think like you said, Pat, I think

that there are a few forces at play,

546

but not least of which generational

shift that Laurie also touched on,

547

on earlier, that is forcing us to.

548

behave in a different way and that is

leading us to make different decisions.

549

We know that there's a lot more

work to be done there and we'd love

550

to see it accelerate even more.

551

But Lori, maybe I'll ask you a different

question just to give us some nuance to

552

this around why has it been so hard for

us to get to this point when we've made

553

it, like, it's very clear to us sitting

around this table that we, we know this,

554

the strategic function that Purpose can

serve for us and that it needs to be

555

something at the heart of what we do.

556

But why has it been so hard for us to

get to the point that we are today?

557

Laurie Bennett: Yeah.

558

I love that question and that's something

that Pat was saying that I love that

559

story Pat about the business has been

going for 189 years without a purpose

560

statement and the legitimacy of being

able to turn around and say that's

561

worked out rather well for us so far.

562

But I think there's a, there's an

Saying that I love, which is that

563

the stone age didn't end because

we ran out of stones, right?

564

We found better ways of doing stuff

that actually just served us better.

565

But you can imagine trying to persuade

people who had used stones for

566

thousands of years to do stuff that

this other thing that I cooked up in a

567

fire by mistake is actually going to.

568

Be a better alternative.

569

So I think there's something, there's

something in here about shifting

570

mindsets and attitudes and pushing

against an inertia built on tradition.

571

You know, the traditions of what it

means to lead a very kind of masculine

572

ideals of control and authority and.

573

Amassing power and power sort of taking

the form of wealth in most places.

574

Like all of this is still super powerful

forces that exist in that space.

575

A lot of businesses pursuing a profit

first agenda have enormous wealth gathered

576

up and they use that to get in the way

of legislation and progress that might.

577

See their slightly old fashioned ways made

harder in order to enable new thoughts

578

and approaches to come into place.

579

And I think when you kind of zoom all

the way, you can go right out from that

580

sort of political legislative environment

that incentivizes certain kinds of

581

businesses or not, but you can pull

that all the way back through just the.

582

Structure of businesses and business

models that people get taught in

583

business schools and understand

to be the way we do business.

584

Right back through to the kind of

personal, very personal challenge that

585

falls on an individual leader when they're

being asked to create some significant

586

shift in the way that their organization

operates and the risk that feels inherent

587

in that, that it might all go wrong.

588

And I think it takes a certain courage

and a certain ambition to decide

589

that you are going to point your.

590

Organization in a different direction

and that you are going to work

591

it in service of something else.

592

And I think, you know, we do this a lot.

593

We get the opportunity to talk to a lot

of people who feel quite comfortable

594

in this space, but the, we can't

underestimate the size of the ask that is,

595

Hey, please fundamentally try something

different here and see what happens.

596

And I think that, you know, in some ways,

the, the thing that's got us over the

597

last 10 years to where we are right now,

hasn't been necessarily a minimization

598

of how important profit is, it's been an

alignment between purposeful business

599

and profitable business and are starting

to really, leaders starting to see

600

that if you have a powerful sense of

purpose, it's actually better Uh huh.

601

For your business, provided your

business is doing, making some

602

positive contribution into the world.

603

And I think there's something beautiful

about the way that purpose starts to sort

604

out the folks who are wanting to continue.

605

To kind of maximize profit at any cost,

as you said, Pat, and who are putting out

606

purpose statements that are inauthentic

or that are designed to kind of patch

607

up a reputation rather than really shape

the strategy of how a business operates.

608

And I think we've been, we've been

through that curve and we continue

609

to go through it even now of the sort

of people jumping on the bandwagon

610

of purpose and de legitimizing it by

sort of claiming to be doing it whilst

611

really having no intention of shifting

the way that their business works.

612

Like I remember when BP changed from

British Petroleum to Beyond Petroleum.

613

As their kind of badge and they bought

that nice flowery logo out and they

614

were full of purpose and then Deepwater

Horizon happened and it just exposed

615

the fact that really nothing had

changed in the way that the organization

616

understood how it needed to operate.

617

And I think at that moment people go,

ah, this purpose thing is just a, it's

618

just a badge that people are putting on.

619

What they're doing to try and impress

people, I think as more and more

620

organizations start to step into

doing it properly, we're starting

621

to see now a kind of restoration

of trust behind real purposeful

622

business and how that can just make.

623

Business better as well as

the world better around it.

624

Pat Dwyer: So good.

625

I can't let that pass because

Laurie has touched on the massive

626

amount of work this entails,

which does not make it attractive.

627

You're asking them to

change fundamentally.

628

You're asking them to pay for it.

629

Sink in the time.

630

And just trust the process,

I mean, come on, right?

631

This is an entire lifetime that

you're changing, particularly

632

for senior level, for example.

633

But the flip side, the clarity

that it gives you, it's so easy to

634

say yes or no to certain decisions

when your purpose is clear.

635

And I think that is what you're

asking for, Bev, are there people

636

that see the potential of that now?

637

Yes.

638

I remember working with organizations

who've walked out of meetings with

639

me seven, eight years ago, who are

now at the same side of the table.

640

You're too early.

641

You're, you know, five years

too early, Pat, but we got here.

642

See, we got here and now we're ready.

643

And they're quite proud

of that, , recognition.

644

It's, it's really fascinating when

it clicks and what I'm excited by is.

645

How many more times do we have

to use, you know, a slide on

646

the business case of purpose?

647

Because I can see it slowly fading,

the question on what is purpose?

648

That's less and less.

649

Two years ago, that was the

only slide they would go for.

650

Today, fast forward to the how.

651

And how did they do it and

how is it right for us?

652

And how do we bite size it?

653

Is there such a thing?

654

Or how do we go on the full journey,

but face it together with all the

655

other changes that we're going through?

656

So yeah, I, you know,

why would you not do it?

657

If this is the hardest thing

you're going to do, because

658

it is the right thing to do.

659

Bev Attfield: Well, I think it's

encouraging to hear from both

660

of you that like the flywheel

is starting to move, isn't it?

661

It's, it's been a little slow,

but it's, it is gaining momentum.

662

It is, we now have greater awareness.

663

We now have more leaders who are

standing up and saying, no, we

664

need to be authentic in this.

665

We need to not.

666

Be green, I guess the equivalent of

greenwashing purpose, washing, right.

667

To be able to use the purpose as

a front for some business endeavor

668

that is really just rooted in profit.

669

So we, we are seeing this, this

traction starting to take hold.

670

We know that there are still

many more difficult conversations

671

to come and, and, , really we.

672

As, as folks who are at the

forefront of this , we need to

673

be making the case for purpose.

674

And sometimes it's frustrating because it

should be very obvious and it shouldn't

675

be that hard to understand that by

investing in this, you not only get an

676

impact in your business, but guess what?

677

You're going to get a ton of profit too.

678

Because if you act in this way, and you

really believe in what you're doing.

679

The chances are that you're, the

business is going to take care of

680

itself because you've got this really

strong core belief in why you're here.

681

Okay, so that's all fair and well.

682

We know that it takes work.

683

We know that it takes investment.

684

We know that changing minds is hard.

685

So what if a leader or a group of leaders

or an executive team decides to do this?

686

What's the reward that they're

going to get for doing this work?

687

There has to be some

return on the investment.

688

Other than knowing that they're,

they're doing good for the world.

689

But I want to know what does being

purpose centric unlock for a business?

690

Laurie Bennett: Yeah, I think I, I

tend to start with kind of meaning

691

and direction are the two things

that it brings first and foremost.

692

So I think if you're, if you're

operating without a purpose, there's

693

something missing, that's the.

694

That kind of thing that connects

somebody's passion to the work that they

695

do, and then understanding that they are

in pursuit of doing something that matters

696

and that, that matters to a lot of people.

697

And the direction being kind of, as

you're proactively setting strategy and

698

making big decisions about what markets,

products, other things you might want to

699

grow into, there's something there that

acts as that that kind of point of light

700

in the sky that can guide those kinds of

difficult decisions, which gets especially

701

important when there's a lot of change

going on in and around a business, that

702

there's this immovable idea, which helps

us kind of navigate and calibrate where

703

we're going and why we're going there.

704

That feels really important,

to give you an example.

705

One of the clients that we work with

in South Africa is Woolworths, which

706

is a major food and fashion retailer

and they've got 26, 000 staff at all

707

levels of the business hierarchy.

708

They set a purpose which is about creating

spaces where you feel connected, inspired,

709

and cared for, that their stores are

more than places to come and transact,

710

but they represent something in the

communities that they're in, they create

711

an experience for the people who are

in them, and having set that purpose,

712

it's been so interesting to watch how

that has been able to unify a number of

713

people In that kind of volume, align them

around, here's what we're really here to

714

do and how that translates into the way

that they treat each other inside their

715

teams, the way they lead each other.

716

During the pandemic, again, that

purpose caused them to decide when to

717

close stores at Economic disadvantage

for the safety of their staff, when

718

to keep them open and how, how to deal

with people who suffered bereavement

719

and challenges through that time.

720

It was the purpose that was the thing

that kept getting referred to, to keep

721

them moving at a time of huge uncertainty.

722

We're watching it now translate into a

customer experience of, if that's the

723

The idea that what we're here to do, how

does that inform and affect a customer

724

experience that's built around human

connection and the love we have for our

725

fellow people and how we serve them in

line with that and what that does to a

726

customer service experience in that way.

727

In South Africa, they have Real challenges

and mandates legally around inclusive

728

justice and starting to see how when

you hold a purpose like that, it

729

compels you into acting in the way that

says, Hey, everyone who walks into our

730

store deserves to be treated and feel

the way that they do, whether they're

731

employed here or whether they shop here.

732

So this one idea.

733

Is starting to infiltrate all the

commercial and cultural aspects of

734

that business that's leading to them

being able to cope with uncertainty

735

and be more resilient through

upturns and downturns in the economy

736

and in the society around them.

737

It's helping them attract, retain

and develop their staff to be able

738

to work in the ways that allows

their business to work best.

739

It's causing them to start

to become a major player in

740

conversations around inclusive

justice in South African society.

741

All of which is contributing back into.

742

The success that they

have as an organization.

743

Bev Attfield: And there's something in

there, Laurie, about how invested they

744

have been in bringing that into every

pore of that organization, isn't there?

745

And the commitments that have

been made at every level to be

746

in alignment with that purpose.

747

And

748

Laurie Bennett: it's been

seven, seven years of sort of.

749

Uncovering it, finding it, and

embedding it, and starting to live

750

it, and they're still working on it.

751

Like these, this process of

finding purpose isn't a three

752

month copywriting jaunt.

753

It's once you got it, the real

work starts, unfortunately, which

754

is how do you align every part

of what you do to this core idea,

755

yeah, and make sure it's living it.

756

Bev Attfield: Wonderful.

757

Thank you for that example, Laurie, and

it just demonstrates how purpose can

758

really be something that we come back to

regardless of what's going on around us.

759

And purpose isn't just for those

moments of joy in the world.

760

It's really what helps us navigate

through anything that we might have to

761

encounter as a business with a group of

people working towards a common goal.

762

So, really great example.

763

Thank you.

764

Laurie.

765

Petra, what is having Purpose Unlock

for a business from your perspective?

766

What have you seen from some

clients you've worked with?

767

Share, share with us

what your thoughts are.

768

Pat Dwyer: Yeah, I'll, I'll

extend from where Laurie left

769

us with meaning and direction.

770

I think it's meaning,

direction, the clarity of it.

771

That's the big unlock because

once that is Not clear, not only

772

because it's articulated, clear

because it means something to every

773

single last individual at the back

of the factory or the shop floor.

774

The power it unleashes is extraordinary.

775

So again, I'll, I'll use, you know,

South Africa or South America.

776

East Asia, Southeast Asia, where you

find a lot of the distribution networks

777

of companies that are headquartered

in the U S or in Europe, let's say.

778

And we get those regional offices

coming to us saying HQ has given

779

us a purpose statement with an eye

roll doesn't mean a thing here.

780

You know what we do, right?

781

We're limited.

782

We don't make anything.

783

We're just a distribution.

784

We stock the shelves or we get

it from point A to point B.

785

And that's always very difficult

because you can already feel with

786

that ask, they don't have agency,

they are disengaged, but there is

787

that one thing that's going for them,

which is they want to be part of it.

788

And the clarity and the meaning that comes

from, so there is a brand whose purpose

789

is creating beauty that moves the world.

790

And you can just imagine.

791

The APAC office going, we don't

create, there is no beauty in what we

792

do, literally, we stock the shelves.

793

We only deal with our suppliers and

our transport partners and the malls

794

and the boutiques that we work with.

795

That's our world.

796

That's not beautiful.

797

Sure, the product when it's in your hand

is, but we have nothing to do with that.

798

So how am I going to

build meaning around this?

799

And yet, when you go through the process

with them, beauty and moves, the world

800

mean completely different things to them.

801

Whereas when you go to the HQ, they

feel like they can't move anything.

802

All they do is make.

803

So actually there is this, there is this

opportunity to get the last IT person,

804

the last finance accountant, the intern,

the tea lady, who is not client facing,

805

not in the most exciting of the jobs.

806

If, if the job is really sort of.

807

You know, very consumer facing in that

respect, but if you can bring them along

808

and the disenfranchised disappears,

then you can talk empowerment, then

809

you have all the right to talk about

inclusion and put metrics in it.

810

How dare you say that when you've

never engaged them in the process of

811

getting to the purpose statement, right?

812

So when Laurie says you know, the real

work starts once you've cracked it.

813

I know we're not selling this really well.

814

It's hard work.

815

It's long.

816

It's nonstop.

817

And once you've articulated it,

you've got to renew the vows.

818

And you've really, you know,

you really have to keep going

819

with it each and every time.

820

But I think that change process

gives you the You matter moment to

821

each and every individual staff.

822

What if you're 40, 000 strong, if your

supply chain actually believes it, and

823

you show up when you say you believe

in people as your biggest asset, right?

824

Then treating them.

825

And they will go miles and

miles for you when that's clear.

826

So I think that is what's exciting.

827

And at least now people are listening.

828

You know, I know we've kind of

veiled this with it's positive.

829

The interest is there.

830

The awareness is there.

831

That's still a minority Bev.

832

And I think this is, I have to caveat

everything with this is still hard

833

work when you get into a conversation

because the pushback is real.

834

We got to chip away.

835

We're going to keep doing it.

836

This is what.

837

Waits for you on the other side and

it's just that dangling action of,

838

you know, look what you could have.

839

Bev Attfield: Well, I think it's a,

you know, the, I don't know what the

840

exact quote is or the saying is, but

it's something along the lines of

841

nothing worth doing is ever easy.

842

And I think it's keeping an eye on where

we want our business to be and the impact

843

that we want to have and what we want.

844

To offer to people who come and work with

us and the clients that we're serving,

845

we have to realize that it, it isn't

going to be something that can just come

846

from a few words that we throw out onto

a page or onto the wall or our website.

847

It's really what meaning we build into

those words and what it looks like

848

when we start to live those words.

849

And that takes a lot of

time and a lot of effort.

850

As you were talking about, you know, how

you convince leaders to take this on.

851

It sounds a little bit about you know,

when my husband was convincing me to

852

sign up to do a triathlon for the first

time, you know, he didn't really make

853

the case of very compelling one or one

that I really wanted to be part of.

854

But once I thought about the benefits that

I would get and, you know, the experience

855

that I was going to have, I came around

to the idea, maybe, maybe similar for, for

856

leaders who are sitting, listening to this

I'm very sorry to say that we're starting

857

to get to the end of our time together.

858

And , I know that this

is a conversation that.

859

Is just the start of scratching

the surface really around what

860

purpose is, why it's necessary for

us to have it and the things that

861

it can unlock for, for business.

862

And, you know, we really believe that

purpose should be our first step.

863

As we start to craft purposeful business.

864

And I'm just really grateful

to hear from both of you today.

865

And I know that for our listeners,

that there's a lot more that we could

866

chat about, and I wouldn't invite folks

to reach out to each of you directly

867

if they want to ask you specific

questions and continue the conversation.

868

So with that in mind, what's the

best way for folks to get a hold

869

of both of you, if they wish to do

so, Pat, how can they reach you?

870

Pat Dwyer: LinkedIn is active,

so you'll find me on LinkedIn.

871

We can pop in the profile link there.

872

And www.

873

thepurposebusiness.

874

com send us an email and tell us

what's on your mind and I'm sure we'll

875

find a way to get you to Purpose.

876

Thanks.

877

Bev Attfield: Laurie,

how can people find you?

878

Laurie Bennett: Yeah, just the same.

879

So on LinkedIn is Laurie Bennett

and come to withinpeople.

880

com and drop us a note through

the contact page there.

881

Bev Attfield: Okay.

882

Before we head off into our respective

worlds and days and evenings Laurie,

883

Pat, could you share your 30 second

advice for a leader who wants to find

884

purpose for their organization today?

885

And the answer cannot be, please

call me in the next two days.

886

Call

887

Laurie.

888

Well done, Pat.

889

Well done.

890

Okay.

891

Pat, 30 seconds.

892

What's your advice?

893

Pat Dwyer: Look inside.

894

And speak to your people about why they

think you exist as an organization.

895

And from there, it'll come.

896

Brilliant.

897

Bev Attfield: Laurie?

898

Laurie Bennett: Yeah, I think

buckle in, probably based on

899

what we've talked about today.

900

I think as a leader, the thing

I would, my advice would be.

901

Really think about the journey

that you are going to go

902

on personally through this.

903

Think about your own commitment

to the sort of change and

904

courage it's going to ask of you.

905

It's a tremendously rewarding journey,

but as you have no doubt gleaned from

906

our perspectives today, it's It's

packed full of challenge and it's going

907

to ask you to explore the things that

mean the most to you and probably make

908

some pretty big decisions and sort

of set yourself up for a different

909

pathway of how your business grows.

910

So I think being as ready as it's

possible to be for some of that is

911

a great precursor to stepping into,

to a journey of finding and then

912

living the purpose that you find.

913

Bev Attfield: Well, thank you, Laurie.

914

Thank you, Pat, for joining us today and

for leading this conversation on purpose.

915

I feel like this is a 10 part

series and this was part one.

916

Laurie Bennett: I can't wait for a sequel.

917

Bev Attfield: I don't know.

918

I don't know if our audience.

919

We'll, we'll be able to

handle 10, 10 pieces of this

920

conversation, but I'm up for it.

921

, thanks for listening, everyone.

922

We really do hope that you

enjoyed this conversation.

923

We're obviously passionate

about this topic.

924

We believe this is the difference

that can make the difference

925

that the world needs right now.

926

. We're up for it and we are always looking

for folks to join us on this journey.

927

So please do join the conversation, give

us a call, tell us what you're up to.

928

What are you thinking about?

929

What's inspiring you around

purpose and, you know, share

930

learnings along the way too.

931

We always love that.

932

We love to know what's.

933

People up and what's inspired people to

make their way further down this path.

934

So thank you so much for being here.

935

You can tune into our podcast every other

month for episodes on what's happening

936

in the culture and leadership space.

937

What's on the minds of leaders committed

to change in our community and other

938

future of work content you crave.

939

Reimagining Work From Within

is available wherever you're

940

listening you listen to podcasts.

941

And we'd love

942

to hear what you thought

about today's episode.

943

Thanks very much.

944

And we'll see you soon.

945

Laurie Bennett: All right, Bev.