In this episode of 'Yoga in the Therapy Room', we discuss how integrating trauma-informed yoga into therapy sessions can create a more holistic and healing environment for clients, especially those with trauma histories. We explore the definition of trauma, and the importance of trauma-informed practices, and provide practical strategies for incorporating yoga into clinical settings. I also share insights on creating a safe, supportive space, adjusting for cultural and individual sensitivities, and the dual benefits for clients and therapists. Listeners are encouraged to explore how these practices can benefit their therapeutic approach and support profound healing.
"One of the most amazing parts of doing trauma-informed yoga in session with clients is the benefit for them. They're learning how to emotionally regulate, learning ways to connect more to their body, and release tension and trauma." -Chris McDonald
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Chris McDonald: Have you ever felt that traditional talk therapy isn't enough to fully support your client's healing, especially those with trauma histories? How might incorporating body based practices, like trauma informed yoga, create a deeper sense of safety and trust in your sessions? You might have heard of the phrase trauma informed, but maybe you're not sure about what exactly that means.
In today's episode in Yoga in the Therapy Room, we're exploring how trauma informed yoga can transform mental health therapy into a more healing, integrated, and safe experience. Discover practical tools for safely integrating yoga into your sessions and learn how this approach can create a sense of safety, emotional release, and profound healing for clients who have experienced trauma.
Tune in for insights that will help elevate your therapeutic practice and empower your clients on today's episode of Yoga in the Therapy Room. Welcome to Yoga in the Therapy Room, the non traditional therapist's guide to integrating yoga into your therapy practice. I'm Chris McDonald, licensed therapist and registered yoga teacher.
This podcast is here to empower therapists like you with the knowledge and confidence to bring yoga into their practice safely and epically. So whether you're here to expand your skills, enhance your self care, or both, you're in the right place. Join me on this journey to help you be one step closer to bringing yoga into your therapy room.
Hey there, and welcome to Yoga in the Therapy Room podcast, the non traditional therapist's guide to integrating yoga into your therapy practice. I'm your host, Chris McDonald. Today we're diving into a powerful topic, enhancing mental health therapy for holistic healing through trauma informed yoga. As therapists, we are often seeking out holistic approaches that go beyond traditional talk therapy.
As many of you have seen and witnessed yourself, Talk therapy traditionally can only go so far. So seeking out these holistic modalities like yoga can really benefit our client's body, mind, and spirit. And today I'm going to talk about trauma informed yoga and how that offers a unique pathway to healing that can complement your therapeutic process, especially when working with those who've experienced trauma and maybe showing a lot of trauma symptoms.
In today's episode, we'll explore how trauma informed yoga can support deeper emotional processing, fostering a greater sense of safety, and help facilitate more healing. So I'm going to break down what trauma informed yoga is, what it looks like, and how it aligns with trauma and therapy, and share some practical strategies for integrating these into your sessions.
So I have a lot of valuable insights and tools for you today that are really going to help empower you as a clinician, and help your clients as well. So let's roll with it today. Let's get into this. And I'm so excited to offer this topic today. This is something I've learned in my yoga training and integrate daily with clients and with classes I do in the community with a very positive response.
Right now I'm offering a mindful movement class for middle aged women. And many have said this is not like yoga I've ever done before. And they really are loving it, the pace of it, the language, just how they feel after. It's been really profound. But let's, let's rewind for a moment and think about. So you've probably heard trauma informed practices, trauma informed yoga.
What does all this mean? Let's go back to the very beginning. Let's start with trauma. What is trauma, right? Anything that overwhelms our ability to cope and be able to recover from can be trauma. And I think we don't want to make a generalization that it's always like going to war or sexual abuse or emotional, physical abuse.
There's so many more traumas that can happen to us in a lifetime. than just the big T's. We call those big T's the big traumas. And I can't begin to tell you how often I see clients that were invalidated for smaller traumas and told to get over it, buck up, you know, stiff upper lip. Those kinds of statements to children can be really damaging.
So I think we got to bring that validation to ourselves, to our clients, and just acknowledging we've all had some trauma in our lives. And maybe if it was more small tease for you, you know, maybe it hasn't impacted your whole life as much as if it was complex trauma, which is multiple traumas that can lead to issues with your core self and be able to function in the world.
But traumas can be Having a parent who is emotionally immature or has a mental health issue like bipolar, depression, really struggling to care for themselves, that can be difficult as a child. So we got developmental traumas, we cannot minimize racism, various forms of discrimination with our marginalized folks from many different backgrounds that struggle.
I'm in the U. S., so this happens a lot in our country, unfortunately. Chronic illness, chronic pain. I know I've experienced medical trauma recently. Had to work through that through my own brain spotting with my therapist. Much props to her because that was rough. That kept coming up for me. I had those recurrent thoughts.
So these cannot be minimized. I see a lot of medical trauma in my practice. It can be hard navigating the medical system in the U. S., and I'm, I'm guessing in other countries as well, or we have professionals in the medical field who invalidate a lot. I've seen clients who've had therapists that weren't professional or ethical.
These all can lead to trauma. So lacking essential resources, food and shelter, of course. If we don't get our basic needs met, that can lead to trauma, poverty. And I think one thing that people don't talk about is grief. Loss of a loved one, of course that can be traumatic. Especially the very sudden ones, that can be really hard.
Divorce, to me that's not even a small T, that's a big one. Especially if you've been married a really long time, that can be, you know, That can upheaval your whole life and of course, natural disasters, as I'm speaking right now, we have a storm on the coast of North Carolina. It is dark, rainy here. There are wind advisories and thunder.
So beware if you hear thunder in the background, there is heavy flooding at the coast. So, These kind of disasters can be very scary for people experiencing them, and unfortunately, people lose their lives and sometimes lose their homes and belongings. Addiction. Sometimes it's not just the person who has addiction who might be taken advantage of or abused in some way, but People that have to live with those with addiction can be hard.
Being a caretaker of someone or caring for a parent. Trauma comes in so many different ways, so I think that we just have to open up the definition of this more and how did We react to the trauma. How did we get through it? Is it impacting our daily lives? It's just some questions that we have to ask ourselves and clients.
A lot of times you might see clients stuck in that hyper arousal, anxiety, anger, rage. These are all ways our nervous system can get stuck, can make it much more difficult to move forward in life. We will be in that flight or fight response and really have a difficult time relaxing. Calming down that hypervigilance, that neuroception, always looking around, or am I safe?
Or we see clients in shutdown, which could be freeze response or a major depressive episode, dissociation. These can all be part of trauma. The beauty of trauma informed yoga, it helps us to retrain the brain and rewire the brain to feel safe. So just because we've experienced even multiple traumas in our lives doesn't mean we can't heal from it.
Now, if we have more than one trauma, does it take longer? Yes, but it is possible and I think always giving clients that hope that we can help them hopefully to get to a better place, to get more into their window of tolerance. To find the path to healing, and I think integrating yoga into clinical sessions can be a great way to do that.
So when we think about the concepts of trauma informed, trauma informed yoga, what does that mean? So it's really understanding, I think, if you're listening as a therapist and you haven't had training in trauma and nervous system regulation, I highly recommend getting trained because even if clients aren't coming to you for quote unquote trauma, They've probably experienced some trauma.
So just know it's not just, like I said, the big T's. It can really impact clients in so many ways. So trauma informed yoga can be a way to help with minimizing triggers. We can open up space for clients to be the experts on their bodies because they are. And just coming in with the assumption that we all have experienced some form of trauma, some difficult experiences.
So it's being very mindful and intentional with our clients to make it as safe as we can for them. Now safety can mean different things to different people. I've had clients with PTSD, they don't ever feel safe. It takes a long time to build that safety if they've had very strong traumas. So just being aware of that.
Or, if you want to call it being more comfortable in your space. If safety can be even triggering that word for some clients. So just being careful with the language that we use. And if they want to know more about what trauma informed is, you can say, Hey, I want to make this feel like the most comfortable experience it can for you.
It's not always going to be. What is more comfort? What can bring resourcing comfort to you? And many of you are already using trauma informed techniques without knowing it probably if you've never heard of this label this trauma informed because it's all based on how you set up your office things on the external your lighting if you have very bright lighting especially overhead lighting that can be triggering for some people.
I always like to have the overhead lighting turned off, have like floor lighting turned on to give it a softer light. And I did read research once that that helps clients open up more. Interestingly enough. So everything in our offices, whether you're telehealth or in person, needs to be intentional to offer this more comfortable space.
How loud we are when we talk to clients. If someone's in a hypervigilant state, if you have a very loud speaking voice, that could be triggering. Not that we can minimize every single trigger for our clients, but we can be mindful. Maybe some clients need a softer approach, and of course, always noticing with their bodies, activation, noticing if their shoulders are creeping up to their ears.
If they're getting more tense, wringing their hands, those things that we all look out for with clients, that could be something to bring to their attention. Say, Hey, I noticed your shoulders are moving up towards your ears. Tell me what's going on in your body. If they feel comfortable sharing, of course, always offering that as an option to share.
But I think it is just that supportive space, feeling that support, hopefully from you. That groundedness, as it's hard, I think, with new clients, because you're still getting your groove on with them and trying to really develop that therapeutic relationship. So giving them that supportive space to work on emotional regulation skills, and this could be in so many ways.
If you've listened to some of my other episodes where I talk about yoga can be just focusing on breath, feeling the breath, we don't even have to change it, just notice grounding practices, gentle movements, increasing body awareness, body scans can be yoga related, but offering choice, that autonomy is so important, that's been taken away from people with trauma, their boundaries have been crossed, so we need to offer different choices, And freedom so that they can choose where they want to go with therapy.
This is their time, their space. So it's the invitation and consent to participate. And just knowing how powerful that can be. That they have the option to stop at any time. They have the option to do certain practices if they really like something you've done before. To let them know, hey, if this feels right for you, then we can definitely use this again.
And just letting them know, just let me know if any of these are really something that you love to do, that this is available for you. And here are the options that I offer in therapy. I always talk to new clients about that. Say, here's the options and we can always go into any of these other modalities that feel right for you.
You have the power in each session. Letting them know that, because I think some, especially new clients, especially if they've never been to therapy, they may not know. They may allow you to guide the way because they're like, Oh, I don't know. This is an authority figure. I got to do what they say. So when we open that up, that safe, supportive space, it's going to make a huge difference in how they feel and how they show up.
In my experience, teaching in a slower way, pacing with them, allowing them to go at their own pace. I always tell clients or people in my classes just go at the pace that feels right for you. This is my pace. Your pace may be different and that's okay, which is not like most fitness classes, right? They want you to keep up and go, go, go and, you know, get your heart rate up and, but that's not what we do for yoga in the therapy room.
So it's all about nervous system regulation, Yoga. It's not about you and your pace as a therapist and teacher of yoga. If you don't want to call yourself a yoga teacher yet, that's fine. You don't have to. But this is just another way to help clients. It also is available to help clients stay in their window of tolerance.
For those that don't know, the window of tolerance is where we feel more calm. You could call it the yoga zone, the calm zone, how you feel after a yoga class. Where it takes longer to get triggered, our window may be wide, and that maybe you've had a really good day, things are going well, you've built inner resiliency, you've worked through a lot of issues, and let's say several triggers happened in the day, maybe that won't throw you off, and you're able to handle them in a calm way and respond.
not react. But let's say things didn't start so well, and you got up late, and your partner was screaming at you, your kids aren't ready for school. So the more and more of these triggers that happen from the get go in the morning, the Your window may be a little bit smaller, and you may find yourself reacting more and more, and you're out of your window, and you're into either anxiety, anger, irritability, hyperarousal, or more of the shutdown.
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Go to hcpodcast. org forward slash startup yoga. That's hcpodcast. org forward slash startup yoga today. So we want to make the therapy space more about the window of tolerance, but with a caveat that we do want to push them at times. Push on the edges, which is something I talk about in my yoga basics training.
How do we help clients to push a little bit on the edge? Because we want to titrate with trauma. We never want to push them too far, but we want to go at the edges so their window can get bigger. And that's the whole point, right? So that their window can get larger, no matter what they've been through.
And they can handle more without the reactions. So it'll take a lot more to push them out of their window of tolerance. And that's where trauma informed yoga comes in. These practices, over time, can build those new neural pathways. Instead of always reacting stress response. It can bring that pause in before reacting.
And I know one way that clients can see healing that I've seen is they're like, Oh, this trigger did not push me on that scale of one to 10 where 10 is the worst, didn't push me to a 10, might have pushed me to a five or a little bit less. And every time it happens now, I'm able to handle it. I'm able to think of a response or be able to use my coping.
So it is kind of almost giving a little more pause so they can find something to work through the trigger. So the language we use is so important with trauma informed yoga. How we say things and not just giving commands. An example would be raise your arms up and down. That's more of a command. So this could be triggering for some people who have authority issues or have had traumas from people giving commands.
But if we say gently, I invite you to inhale your arms up to the side and up. Exhale, arms down. Inhale, arms up, and exhale. This is an invitation, so put, using words like invite, give it a go, it's up to you to decide if you want to do this or not. Always allowing space for that. Or we can use the cue, take your time, pace yourself, do what's right for you right now.
Think about how that would feel in someone's nervous system. It would just be like a calmer response, right? We also keep things trauma informed by being sensitive to different cultures, different diagnoses that people may have, struggles they may have. And just knowing that this is available, yoga is available for all people from diverse backgrounds and experiences, but adapting an example would be if, let's say, someone's from Native American culture, you don't want to tell them to look at you because in their culture, that may be something that is culturally not what they want to do because they're taught that that is not respecting authority.
So really being aware culturally with some of the cues that you give and adapting to what they may need and the words you may use. And I think this all comes back to what I mentioned before, just being mindful of our language is just so essential. And just a couple other things about your office space and whether it's trauma informed or not.
Thinking about all your senses and what you offer. What do clients see when they first arrive? What is available as far as visuals? Is there pleasant colors? Or is there cement walls and you don't have any pictures up? What kinds of colors? That you have can invoke certain feelings. So if you have red, strong orange, or yellow, that can invoke something different than cooler colors like blue, light blue, purples, greens.
So just try to be mindful of that. We can't always change it. If we rent space, but doing what you can with what you have can be really helpful. So again, we're trying to create that comfort safety connection in our offices. That's all trauma informed and of course smells as a holistic therapist. I do love some essential oils and clearing sprays like sage, but I do have to be mindful who's coming in.
And always check with clients because I know I'm someone with migraines. I can't have too much of some sense. I got to do it lightly or it can trigger headaches or migraines and other people may be the same, but also it can trigger events from trauma. So just be aware. Smells are important. Visuals. What they're hearing, if there's music in your office, sometimes music can trigger certain memories.
I always like something without words, some instrumental, soothing kind of spa music. But some people may not like that, so just know sometimes for certain people that could be something that they don't like. don't like because it can trigger something in their nervous system from past traumas. So I'm going to pause there, just hopefully this is all making sense as far as what is trauma informed yoga.
And again, we can bring yoga in so many forms. So it can be breath practices, meditation, Mindfulness practices and the gentle movement, even yogic philosophy, we can bring into sessions and just checking with clients and how that's settling for them. And if something's not working shifting gears, so it's, it's their time.
So we are there to accommodate them and their needs. It's not about us. And even if you love a practice. Your clients may not. So just, just know, cause I've had that habit. I'll be like, Oh, would you be interested in trying this new breath tasting technique? And then I've offered it to clients. They're like, no, that doesn't work for me.
That's okay. They told me, and it's up to them. That is their autonomy. They are the ones directing here. So keep that in mind. I do want to tell a quick story about a yoga class I went to that was not trauma informed and how this impacted me when I was studying for my 200 hours in yoga. Part of what we had to do was go to different classes and we took this form and wrote down what was trauma informed, what was not.
It was very eye opening because of course lots of teachers bring different things. We're all so different. No teacher is the same from what I've seen. But this one class really bothered me. I had a difficult time. I've not had a lot of major Ts in my life, but I've had some small ones and certain things I can be sensitive to like noise or crowding in my space.
This class I went to It wasn't a giant studio, but let me tell you, they crammed people in this space. I ended up in the middle because of when I got there. And there was probably, I don't know, six or seven per row. I just couldn't believe how many people were in there. To me, it just felt claustrophobic. I felt uneasy.
just with that many people, that many bodies moving. The teacher was very loud. Now, I get that people want to project their voices, but I'm very sensitive to noise, so it really bothered me. She touched without asking, and that's my, one of my pet peeves, is touching. And as therapists, we don't often touch in sessions, and especially trauma informed, that can be super triggering, especially if they're in hypervigilance.
So we won't ever, it's not recommended to touch someone to move them into a quote unquote posture in yoga, especially trauma informed. We want that to be a safe space. They have had boundaries crossed with touch many times, so it's important that we respect that and honor that. But I had this teacher that kept moving me into, I think it was Warrior 1 or 2.
She didn't like that my arms weren't straight enough and I wasn't in alignment. To me, it's awkward, even though I know I have the autonomy to be like, stop touching me. It was just so hard in the middle of a class and they're still teaching when they touch you so it's just an awkward thing. I always appreciate yoga teachers who would say here's a little card put this up if you don't want any adjustments.
I don't believe in adjustments period but that's just me. So yeah, so crowded space I was in this teacher kept touching me. And I just won't ever forget what happened. So she, at one point we're doing cobra pose and she did not like the way people were positioning their elbows. I don't even remember if I was doing it right.
I was just in shock. She turned the music off, turned the lights up. to Bright and said, I need to talk to everybody here and nobody's doing this pose right and your elbows aren't bending. I don't know what she was saying because I was in so much shock. I'm like, what is she doing? She was saying that we weren't bending them right.
And as you get older, you're going to cause all kinds of problems with your joints. And I'm in disbelief. I'm like, here I am using my little sheet to see whether this was trauma informed or not. I could not believe it. I felt so uncomfortable even finishing that class. I thought about leaving, to be honest.
I didn't. I just gutted it out, but I never went back to that studio to, long story short. But I could not believe how triggering that was for me. And I can't imagine someone that would be in that flight or flight state if they were super in their trauma response. So just know stuff like that, all of that matters.
We can't always control in our offices how much space we have. Sometimes we're cramped and we gotta make do with what we have, but just, just know that could be difficult for some clients with trauma. So what are the benefits of integrating trauma informed yoga? In my opinion, you can't treat trauma without bringing the body into treatment, period.
So it helps that body mind connection, can really help with body awareness, interoception, knowing what's going on in the body, connecting to sensations, which, at times, emotions can come up as sensations, and that can help with regulating the nervous system, allowing that time and space. Just to see where it goes, we feel a sensation in our chest, let's notice it, we could put our hand on it, breathe into it, allow it to be there, continue to promote that sense of calm and safety in our space for our clients, really helps build that resiliency in the nervous system, resiliency for clients overall for emotional regulation, and that sense of control, they can choose whether to participate or not, they can choose a variation or not with any moves or breath that we teach them.
That can be powerful. It can make a huge difference in their lives where maybe they don't feel a lot of power in their lives, period, but you're offering that space for them. It's just unbelievably helpful and can really help them work through PTSD symptoms, anxiety, depression, doesn't matter what it is, whatever the symptom is, it has a place for them.
for helping them. So what are some of the practical techniques? A very simple, easy to use strategy you can use in session is called resourcing. And I know in EMDR they use a lot of resourcing. We also use it in brain spotting. So it's taking a moment, and you can try this with me right now, notice where you feel more ease in your body, more groundedness.
Where do you feel more calm? What feels good? And you can help someone if they're struggling. Just do a body scan with them or even just a partial one if a full one is difficult. Noticing your feet. Do they feel calm? Your toes, maybe your legs, maybe somewhere like your torso, your belly. Chest or back.
Doesn't matter where it is. Just notice where you feel that resource. Feel a sense of grounding. And connect with that. Stay with that a minute. You can ask them to close their eyes, and just be there in that grounded space. Breathing with it, or breathing into it. Or, you can have them notice, where do you feel strength?
Is it in your legs? Shoulders? arms or somewhere else. Tune into that strength or notice resiliency. Where do you feel that in your body? We can offer suggestions or just wait and just see what comes up for them as far as where they feel. Feel a sense of empowerment in your body right now, allowing yourself to go there and be there with them and connecting to the positive in our body, the resourcing.
Whether that's strength or resiliency, whatever it is, and doing this in a safe way can be so healing and helpful because oftentimes it's the negative that gets our attention. It can be a struggle to shift, to be like, oh wait, there are ways I feel strong in my body. I know for me at the gym, I'll feel really strong as I'm lifting weights or noticing strength of my feet as I'm exercising on the bike.
I can really feel it in my thighs maybe. Same with our clients, but we can just notice even seated or standing in mountain pose is another way. And asking them, can they notice sensations in a mindful way with curiosity, stepping back for a moment without judgment. And I think many times judgment gets in the way of being present and clients may judge themselves.
Oh, I have that tightness in my chest again. Why is it there? Why does this keep coming up? Instead, curiosity, let me notice. Hmm, I feel tight on the right side but not the left. Let me get into my scientific mind and just see what's there, see where it goes. Feeling the sensation, describing it. Some clients need the help too to say, is this light?
Is it heavy? Is it tight? cold or something else. So that's always a great space to start as far as practical techniques to find the resourcing in the body. Now if you've never integrated grounding or resourcing, another great way to start with yoga is Especially trauma informed as breath practices. And it doesn't have to be some crazy difficult breathing.
It could be, can you notice your chest rising on the inhale, falling on the exhale? Just notice right now, we're not changing it. Or just encouraging clients to have a longer exhale than an inhale. Taking a slow breath in through the nose, out through the mouth, but extending the exhale. And just doing that several times with them, doing the breathing with them.
can be very therapeutic. Because when we bring trauma informed yoga into sessions, we're not going to quote unquote tell them what to do. That can be very uncomfortable, especially one on one. So we want to do it with them, make this a practice together, to help with co regulation. I hope all this is making sense.
And you may realize, wow, I've been doing all these practices already. I am bringing yoga in. So I just wanted to bring up some case studies. So I've had a lot of success over the years. Too many to name in this podcast, but with helping clients integrate, I remember one client recently that was so restless.
Um, she has ADHD and just lots of anxiety, so troubleshooting still, which is fine. So she comes in and she's really just moving around, sitting cross legged, then straight legs. Like I could tell that she even wanted to stand up. So this was the beginning session. I was like, so I kind of used that organically.
I noticed you're having trouble sitting still. What would it feel like to stand up for a moment? And this is someone I've done movement practices with. So what would it feel like to stand up? Would you like to do some movement today? And then we went into just, Doing some shoulder swings and shaking it out and, and doing several different practices.
And amazingly, once we were done, we were able to sit down and figure out where she wanted to go with therapy that day. That's just one example. There's so many different ways that we can integrate to help clients learn these tools as well to practice. And I've had other clients with depression where they really are having a hard time.
And again, depression can be trauma related. So we try to do some energizing practices, light bouncing on the feet, marching in place, getting the energy moving in some way. It's so powerful. Or if we want to bring strength in the legs, standing in mountain pose, just noticing. And if you don't know all the cues, that's okay.
Just can we stand and just pretend we're like a still arms at your side. Just looking ahead. Feel the strength of your feet. Feel the strength in your legs. Feel the strength in your shoulders. So bringing just basic cues like that, where do you feel it? Notice if it shifts or not. So these are just a few quick success stories I thought might be helpful.
But one last thing I wanted to bring up is the dual benefit. One of the most amazing parts of doing trauma informed yoga in session with clients is the benefit. For them, and again, they're learning how to emotionally regulate, learning ways to connect more to their body. release tension, trauma, breathing practices.
But then guess what? You're doing it with them, so you get the benefit as well. I know for me, when I have a day of integrating more yoga sessions, I don't necessarily end the day feeling worn out. Like all I can do is plop on the couch and watch Netflix. I have some energy. I'm feeling a bit better. Am I tired?
Yes, but it's not as bad as if I just did traditional talk therapy. So this is all about your self care too. So it's going to help you to stay more regulated and be more present with all of your clients to building your own inner resiliency. That's it. Your inner resource is being built as well, which is a bonus, right?
So my challenge for you, how can you begin to integrate trauma informed yoga in a way that feels authentic and supportive to both you and your clients? So I'll say it again. So how can you begin to integrate trauma informed yoga in a way that feels authentic and supportive to both you and your clients?
There's your homework. So think about what that could look like for you. It's going to be different for every therapist and that's okay and take a breath. Well, that brings us to the end of another episode. I hope you got a lot of this episode with all the practical tips and learning more about what trauma informed yoga practice is and therapy and how to get it started.
se for Therapists coming fall:Discover clear guidelines and examples on the how and when to introduce yoga to clients in session and how to build confidence in teaching these with my four step method. Plus, as an added bonus, you'll get two 30 minute consultation sessions with me. So come join my interest list and be the first to hear when the doors open for this course.
Go to hcpodcast. org forward slash yoga course interest. That's hcpodcast. org forward slash interest. yoga course interest. And once again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Until next time, take care. Thanks for listening to today's episode. The information in this podcast is for general informational and educational purposes only.
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