As we approach both Martin Luther King Jr. Day and Inauguration Day 2025, many church leaders are wrestling with how to offer hope while addressing the deep divisions in our communities. In this timely conversation, Rev. Dr. F. Willis Johnson, Senior Pastor of Christ United Methodist Church and author of "Holding Up Your Corner," returns to the Pivot Podcast to explore how Dr. King's vision of beloved community can shape our path forward through these challenging times.

Drawing on both pastoral experience and scholarly insight, Dr. Johnson offers practical wisdom for maintaining prophetic witness while avoiding partisan entanglement, creating brave spaces for difficult conversations, and connecting personal spiritual formation with social transformation. Rather than seeking quick fixes, he challenges church leaders to ground their justice work in deep spiritual practices and to reclaim the radical hospitality modeled in their own faith traditions. This episode provides essential guidance for leaders seeking to foster healing and courage in an anxious time.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• “Holding Up Your Corner” by F. Willis Johnson
• Letter from Birmingham Jail
• Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee

Watch the video version on YouTube at https://youtu.be/9v2Oan-Xids.

Willis Johnson: There's so much opportunity and so much shared opportunity and resource that is interfaith now more than ever that that we can really tap into. And I think people don't appreciate as much as they should the evidencing of what Doctor King and others, um, lived into in the time of the civil rights movement and beyond. And even now, I don't think they understand or appreciate the nature of the interfaith, um, disposition there. There's no one way to get to some of the places and spaces we need to get to in the clarity and the confidence and the solace in the in the anchoring of our of our souls and our spirit. Uh, but there is, uh, commonality that is found. And I think that's what this next generation is challenging us of emergent leaders, particularly, is to work through that versus, for some of us, working through our through our usual denominational channels or our conventional religious functionality.

Terri Elton: Hello everyone! Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Terri Elton and I'm joined with Dwight Zscheile.

Dwight Zscheile: Today we're honored to welcome the Reverend Doctor F Willis Johnson back to the show. Doctor Johnson is senior pastor of Christ United Methodist Church in Columbus, Ohio, and a visiting instructor in starting new Christian communities here at Luther Seminary. As we begin 2025, many church leaders are reflecting on the turbulent year we've just experienced and wondering how to move forward with hope and purpose. Some feel exhausted from navigating political tensions. Others are seeking to rebuild trust across divided communities. and many are asking what prophetic leadership looks like in this next chapter of our national life as we approach. Martin Luther King Junior day. We wanted Doctor Johnson to help us reflect more deeply on how Doctor King's vision of beloved community can shape our path forward. Through his book Holding Up Your Corner and his Leadership with Urban Church Plants, Doctor Johnson shows how justice work isn't just about responding to crises. It's about forming disciples who can engage in the hard, holy work of transformation. So, Doctor Johnson, welcome back to the Pivot podcast.

Willis Johnson: Oh, glad to be here. Thank you.

Terri Elton: So let's just jump in with our current realities and put that in conversation with Doctor King's vision of beloved communities. How would you imagine getting us started to think about what parts of that vision speak into this current moment that we're living?

Willis Johnson: Well, I think the first thing uh, to to hold on to uh, though it's difficult is the spirit and the belief, uh, that hope uh, yet lies ahead, uh, that, uh, this has and will continue to be a journey. Um, Doctor King, uh, so eloquently, um, and, uh, timely, in a timely way. Spoke almost some would suggest that he eulogized himself, uh, before his death, talking about the fact that I may not he may not we may not see the fullest expression of maturation and realization of our hope, but that in itself, uh, is not enough, um, to, uh, that should keep us from nor for the inevitable of that hopeful promise to be fulfilled. And I think, both in a spiritual sense and in our civic religion, in our life, in a democratic Republic. We are still in that, still on that journey, still in that place. And I know it's a strange maybe, um, point of departure, but I think in this, in this season, uh, in this season of not only of where we're living and how we are as a nation, but even in, in this time of being reflective, uh, now more than ever, we have to not only cling to our hope, but mine, uh, for our hope and and work towards bringing it to the fullest fruition possible, knowing maybe, uh, that we may not always get to see it, uh, unfold, um, ourselves, but yet it shall come to pass.

Dwight Zscheile: So I'm curious, as you reflect on some of the practices that Doctor King led with, both for him as a leader, but also for the civil rights movement and the communities and the churches that he led. Um, how might some of those translate into this moment? And, you know, one of them, of course, being Non-Violence. And we've been through this season where there's been the threat of political violence, some attempted political violence and things like that, and it seems like a volatile situation still kind of not just here in the US, but also certainly globally. But what are what are some practices that that we might, you know, kind of consider and retrieve from, from his leadership for this moment?

Willis Johnson: Well, I think we can, um, definitely, uh, take note and apply aptly the reality of deliberative action and deliberate intention. Uh, I'm using these words, uh, with, with, with emphasis because, um, as you mentioned, much of the Kingian or Doctor King's philosophy people, um, focus in on the, the what is identified as nonviolent activity. Uh, that was king. Uh, A further kind of distilling the work of civil disobedience. Uh, and this idea of protest. Okay. And I'm quick to tell people, um, there is, uh, there is there is not a, there doesn't we way too many times we use the terminology of nonviolence, uh, to kind of distinguish away from protest. But, um, the acts of civil disobedience that Doctor King and the movement taught that, um, uh, they, they wanted to make sure that people said why we're being acted upon and sometimes violent and threatening manner. We don't want to reciprocate in that manner, but we do want to protest or bring attention, um, and give voice or give sight or give or give body and give evidence to what is not right or More righteous. And so I think the church and even the larger society, we live in a democratic republic that welcomes the First Amendment exercise, that that makes space and allowance for what is, um, acts of civil disobedience as well as protest. And I think fleshing that out individually and collectively is important. And I won't bore the audience with that. But I do think the deliberative actions and intentions that Doctor King modeled, not just in civil disobedience, but also in, uh, the the strong desire and effort for the movement and parts of the movement that he was both active and instrumental in. He promoted dialogue. Many times, Doctor King found himself in conversation and in negotiation and, uh, and not only he but all of the many members of snick and, and, uh, the, uh, the southern SCLC and all the all the groups that collaborated together. Many times they found themselves having to be in very tense and sometimes seemingly unwelcomed, maybe even unmerited conversations with people or engaging in making relationships across both boundaries and indifference. Um, that still is our calling today. He, uh, took into great practice from my interpretation and understanding the challenge of his faith, what many, much of his decision making, much of the pedagogy and the practice and the levels of of of what led to not only their choices and their strategies. Uh, many of many, if not all of this was informed chiefly by a strong theological, uh, imperative and a faith, a faith application or a faith infused and a faith informed, uh, ways and Ways and means to carry it out. And I think people of faith and, uh, and, and others can take that, uh, and begin to, uh, find ways to interpret that and infuse that and interpret it for themselves, uh, and engage healthily in what's going to be, uh, definitely a time for more conversation, uh, a multi, uh, pluralistic approach and, and coalitions to addressing a number of the problems, concerns and responsibilities we have as citizens.

Terri Elton: So I want to pick up on another element kind of of what you were just talking about. Uh, part of the beauty for me about King's vision is it fused different practices together. And there was a faith, a set of faith practices as well. Right. Spiritual practices. And so I want to pick up on the the idea of hope that you put forth. I think the world tells us hope is what you see, right? It's much shorter sense, and the kind of hope you're talking about, right, is really grounded in something bigger outside of ourselves. So I want you to say more about how that hope gets cultivated when we know we may not even see it in our lifetime. And how do the spiritual practices that we have at our access as Christian communities help us think about that? For example, lament or or some of some of the ways that we acknowledge the world is not yet as God intends, and there is a reason for hope. So talk about those practices.

Willis Johnson: Well, I would first offer up that, um, to understand the practices, uh, that I think not only for Doctor King, but for many who are, who were involved in and now, uh, in, in in social, uh, social, uh, civic and social engagement or social resistance in, in the like. Um, they are they are practices that marry. And there's a great deal of intersectionality in the means and the ways of the practices. Um, uh, and so I want to really demystify, particularly for Christians, this idea that, um, that what we do is only what we do or that we are limited to seeing what's available to us in our proverbial toolkits as only being, uh, the few things that we know, uh, or have have come to know. Why do you say it that way, Willis? Well, because one we know one of the one of the principal influencers of of both philosophy and intellectual curiosity and and what gave shape to a lot of his practice in resistance was encouraged, uh, not only by Howard Thurman, the great mystic, and his teacher, uh, and and a former confidant and mentor to him. But Mahatma Gandhi and Mahatma Gandhi has a great thumbprint, not only on the on the Western, uh, movement for for humanity and dignity and rights, but, uh, he also has for those who are really interested in is, uh, a strong, uh, imprint on the apartheid movements and what gave rise and encouraged the work of Nelson Mandela and others in, in South Africa, but I digress. My point is, um, the idea of lament is not, uh, it is a shared practice. Uh, we see this in the Old Testament or First Testament book, uh, of our ordering, and we understand how that was part of both, um, uh, the, the civic and, and religious life of people that being able to speak about what's not right or righteous in the way and in the world is important prayer or conversation with God, or meditation and contemplative reflection. That that raises answer or puts out heart and lets the heart and and answer, uh, be be echoed or received and reverberated to them. That's not just germane to Christian folks. But with that being said, we have a wonderful opportunity in this, in this time in life where while we have our own particular disciplines, um, of, of study, of reflection, of, of, of, of not only lament specifically but but, but of of ways of um pronouncing or um, uh, giving evidence to what it is and how it is, or inviting and signaling what is the need of, of strength or resource. There's so much opportunity and so much shared opportunity and resource that, uh, is interfaith now more than ever that that we can really tap into. And I think people don't appreciate as much as they should. Uh, that Doctor King's the evidencing of what Doctor King and others, um, lived into in the time of the civil rights movement and beyond. And even now, I don't think they understand or appreciate the nature of the interfaith, um, disposition. And, um, I think that's I know that's not an exact answer, but it's one of those answers, to be honest. And I'll stop after this. Um, there there's no one way to get to some of the places and spaces we need to get to in the clarity and the confidence and the solace in the in the anchoring of our of our souls and our spirit. Uh, but there is, uh, commonality That is found. And I think that's what this next generation is challenging us of emerging leaders particularly is to is to work through that versus for some of us, working through our usual denominational channels or our conventional religious functionality.

Dwight Zscheile: So one of the things that we have heard from a number of leaders about is the struggle to maintain prophetic witness, both as leaders and as congregations, while avoiding partisan entanglement. And your your pastor of a local church. What's your wisdom on that? That affirmation of prophetic witness as a part of Christian leadership and the gospel and avoiding a kind of partisan entanglement, which seems to be an easy trap for people to fall into today.

Willis Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, the first thing I would tell people is, uh, I asked this question many times when I've taught classes on on this and you ask people, what does it mean to be prophetic? Uh, and the first response is speak truth to power. Okay. Um, that's one dimension of it. That's a part of it, and that's good. But it's not the whole, um, the whole kit and caboodle. I won't get into my whole definition that I borrowed from from scholars like Rufus Burrow Jr, who talks about eighth century prophets. And it's the unmasking of truth. And I won't get into that. But I would say that being prophetic is not just preaching. Okay. And the first thing I tell people is, okay, truthfully, respectfully, if it ain't, if that's not your issue or an issue in context, don't try to make it an issue. There's enough injustice that may not look just like everyone else's injustice, but there's an injustice in unrighteousness or something that needs to be to be challenged in your context. That is appropriate to challenge for your context. I love that. I'm sorry, Dwight, but, uh, some years ago, I was, I was, I was, uh, I was a shark in my book somewhere, and, and and a person stood up and they asked me the question, basically, how do you how do you preach about, you know, Michael Brown or somebody in an all white congregation? And I said to them, why would you preach about Michael Brown, an all white congregation in the middle of North Dakota, Wyoming, or wherever the hell excuse me? Wherever they were at and I and I and they kind of were bewildered by that. And then I followed it up. I said, let me ask you a question. Maybe have you ever thought about this? How in the Western Hemisphere, in the continental US, in the 21st century, that you're able to be in a in a community, in a city, in a state, in a region that is so So homogeneous. At a time where the world's population suggests otherwise. Maybe that's the question to ask. That will then help you move towards understanding some of the other challenges that are elsewhere in the world. So pragmatic response after the three minute soliloquy, ladies and gentlemen, uh, identify what's of of consequence in your space. And the prophets did this. Of the of the a century Old Testament um, uh, Elk one to don't raise any question commentary, um or consideration that you can't remain answerable to yourself. Okay, I know it's means speaking truth to power. Well, uh, what is the truth? So you gotta have a shared lingua franca. I always say you got to have a common speak. What is it that speaks to the situations and the people that you're in? What is your leaning? Um, it's interesting that the prophets of old, they both had to represent the interests of the people and represent the interests and the imperatives of God. They stood in what I like to call the suicide lane. They didn't have a side. They didn't have a side. They were at the cross. They were in the crosshairs. And at the cross section, um, there is a beautiful there's a beautiful possibility and both problem of being, I don't want to say being objective does not mean you don't have an opinion, but there is a place and a point in which some of us serve best on standing where we stand, not trying to find a side to stand with. And I hope that's clear to people, um, that you you, Um. I'm very partisan. Okay. Uh, and I have to guard against in in my position in the pulpit, in the pews, in the parking lot. Uh, I can I can carry that partisan nature or yield it in different ways. Um, but I've had to discern. And I have to be very guarded. Um, and defined. Because at the end of the day, if you're going to operate in the role of the prophet, you have to not only raise question, commentary and critique, but you have to remain questionable, remain answerable to those same questions, commentary and critique. So I hope that's helpful for you. Because here's the thing too many people want us to give them the answer. And part of your job is to, um, not give everyone the answer. Probably the greatest benefit and beauty, particularly in the prophetic model, is when the prophet themselves pleaded that they did not know, they were not sure, and yet they trusted God.

Terri Elton: I want to I want to lift up. Maybe it's it feels more pragmatic, but I think part of what I see congregations struggling with is how to set the table in an environment where for people to have difficult conversations right around any topic. And, and so and I think specifically some of the things that we're talking about here are so deeply both there's blind spots that we don't know what we don't know. And they're they're deep within us as far as we hold personal values or things. And, and so it's personal and we don't have a good set of Set of practices or we don't have experience with practices. So I find that one of the things that congregations need to work on is just hosting conversations across difference, right? Um, and what kind of insights would you have, as we as congregations want to begin to host these kind of conversations? What what insights would you have for such conversations?

Willis Johnson: This is going to sound probably a little strange coming from me. Uh, because I'd love to tell you to go to the book and buy it. Turn to the back of it. There's a whole layout for how to do these things. Um, but I'm not going to tell you to do that. But if you went to go get that, you could. Yeah. You could. And it's all laid out in a template form. And you know. Yeah. But here's what I'm going to do different in this next opportunity is this. I think people of faith ought to actually practice their faith. And I'm about to shoot myself in the foot. And everybody who wrote a book about how not to be anti-racist and all kind of other things. Newsflash, folks, um, church people, pastors, leaders, um, the model for creating brave space, encouraging courageous conversations, all this other stuff is, for many of you, what you do or supposed to do every Sunday at the point of your Communion or Eucharist. Now, I know different traditions. This may be a little bit of a challenge. My particular tradition we have what's called an open table. Whosoever. Matter of fact, you're encouraged to bring all of your stuff. The good, the bad, the ugly, the whatever. And the understanding is that before we even sit down, uh, after that, things have been blessed. We turn to each other and before we say another word, or do and take another action, even if we don't know the person or do know the person, even if we what we did was harmful or hurtful to them or not. We say these words I'm sorry. And from there we carry out the full administration of our of our experience. What would happen if we actually took the communion table into the fellowship hall, or to the brunch table, or into the workplace across at the at the table, at the Starbucks, and just began to have that kind of conversation? Not something formal. Trust me. Please invite me. I'll come. Uh, let me talk to you. I'd love to do a lecture. All that good stuff, but it's just that simple. Another thing. Um. Bible. So I wish I could take credit for it. When you have fought with another. There's a whole coaching Exercise that is laid out to begin to address difficult or challenging. Conversation or situation that we we rarely apply in our everyday, ordinary lives. That in its simplest form is the invitation. Believe it or not, for people, particularly disciples, people of faith. Um, because you, when you know better, you do better. And I don't think we're giving ourselves enough both credit in terms of our faith traditions and the teachings. Nor are we holding ourselves to greater, greater to, to, to a significant enough account for actually trying to live our faith out. That was the that, that that, in my estimation, was was the rallying cry of of king and and and his collaboration with so many other ministerial leaders, even those not of his faith. I think that was the point of intersection for he and Rabbi Joshua Heschel. Well, how does this Jewish rabbi and this Baptist preacher a little bit of a little bit, probably not close to in age, but, you know, maybe the same peers of some regard. How is it that that that they come together and, and find commonality and usefulness, I believe, is because they both wanted to have the tenets of their faith traditions lived into. And what discouraged King most, uh, kind of like me. I like, I like, I like people. Uh, I like God. I just don't always like all of God's people. And I surely don't like preachers sometimes, because, you know what the, the, the greatest opposition that King spoke against was not Bull Connor. That letter from the Birmingham jail was To whom? Ladies and gentlemen, we are that church. We are the people. When are we going to live into our faith?

Terri Elton: I love the idea of, for example, in my tradition we say, you know, God's the host of this table in the sanctuary. What if God was the host of those tables, right?

Willis Johnson: Every table.

Terri Elton: And and that we're sitting across from. And everyone was a beloved child of God. What if that's the starting point of which to move? And, uh. Yeah. And that would that would be a tangible practice to live in, right? And it's it's me. It's not, um, somebody else. Right? It's not pushing it down. It's actually embodying that in my everyday life. I love that challenge. Thank you.

Dwight Zscheile: So I hear you inviting us to deepen our identities in our in our faith traditions, particularly even as a as a step toward being able to come together across traditions, but certainly to come across difference. And that's just such a welcome message. And it's such a, I think, a critical one for right now, where I think sometimes churches will be tempted to minimize some of their traditions, and that's actually can be quite unhelpful. So, um, so I want to just follow up on that a little bit and think with you, um, about the relationship between personal spiritual formation and social transformation and, um, what what would be your counsel to leaders who are trying to steward and guide Christian communities through these times? Um, in thinking about that relationship between personal spiritual formation and social transformation?

Willis Johnson: Yeah, I think it is. Uh, it's a delicate operation, especially given the time and nature in which we live. But I want us to not feel inhibited or hesitant about doing so. Because here's the thing there is. And judge me how you want or, you know, put comments in wherever you want to. Um, I'm sorry. There's a group of people who have who've taken taken who have um, um, uh, commandeered, uh, for instance, the idea of, of being evangelical and the concept and have. Shaping a political ideology out of, out of what has inherently a religious expectation and identity and imperative to go out and spread the good news. I think we have to do counter that in helping people that to know that your, your, your, your personal, um, uh, journey and becoming in faith, um, is just that. But it is not separate because the full expression and employ of that being that way of being the embodiment, the exuding and the and the exhibiting of, of faith in real time, the incarnate nature is in how you live, okay. What you do, what you and I, we do in life and in the world speaks of our God. Our God is not limited to the four walls, or to the confines, or to the bar, or to the bowling alley, or to the, to the, to the bike ride or whatever is the, the, the, the ecology of uh, the setting of, of our faith traditions. I think we would do wise to help teach people in a healthy way how important their faith is and how their faith truly is, uh, expressed or experienced in real time in the real world. And the actual effect that we want to, for many of us, um, bring about as it relates to being disciples and faithful people or making a transformation or being disciples in my in my tradition, being disciples and making disciples for the transformation of the world. It does not. You can't just stay in your church and pray, and you can't just stay in your your personal space and not think that it's going to have effect or, uh, or effect on other people. We have to challenge that as those of us who particularly who are ordained or who who are assigned in the teaching and the curating of the faith. Um, maybe a simpler way to express it is this, uh, I wish I had paid attention. I would have probably passed in, uh, a lot with a better grade in in junior high school and high school if I understood x, y axis and math. But but the reality is this. Until you get your vertical relationship And tack. Your horizontal relationships can't be you. Show me. You show me discord. You show me imbalance. You show me hatred. You show me dishonouring indifferent and indifference. And I'll show you a person who's not in right alignment, who's not in the who's not seeking the will of God, or who's not finding themselves anchored or on their square. To borrow from the Masons, that imbalance and that poor foundation or that poor structure and that and that, that vertical misalignment is what also results in the, the horizontal misalignment. So teaching in that regard, or premising our faith with that kind of promise and end is what I think we're charged to do in these in these times, now more than ever, there's no right or wrong way to to to do it. I don't want to tell somebody because every tradition has maybe some, some of its own orientation, but I don't see people being encouraged to be Christians that as a As a result, bring healing, help and hope and and social consciousness into the world. We always try to be like we're the Christian church whose socially conscious. Okay, we're the welcoming church that is radically welcoming. Well, dang nabbit, that's what we're supposed to be if you are whoever you are. I mean, that ain't no special brand. It's the new tide. No. It's detergent. It's supposed to clean everything. It's. I'm sorry.

Terri Elton: I appreciate that. I think on a on a number of levels. Doctor Johnson here, in the sense that the gospel is transformational personally and collectively. Yes. And and I think your reminder to let ourselves be transformed as we lean into, as we actually hear the gospel, the radical nature of this gospel message, to turn away from our own selfishness and to see all of God's people as beloved and justice as a part of our call, but also the sense of the particularity of context and and to see where, where can I lean in to that in my, in my neighbors, in my relationships. And and those are across faith traditions. Right. And they're across difference of all kinds that that Christians are actually invited into out of our, out of our faith. And so, um, I, I appreciate the intersection that you're, you're calling us into to hold these things, this discernment together in, in a, in an important way. So thanks for your time with us today, and for helping us think through what it means to be church, to be followers of Jesus in this time.

Willis Johnson: Well thank you. Thank you.

Dwight Zscheile: And to our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode of The Pivot Podcast to help spread the word. Please like and subscribe if you're catching us on YouTube or leave a review on one of the podcast platforms, it really helps.

Terri Elton: And the best compliment you can give us is to share this pivot podcast with a friend. So for this week, this is Terri Elton and Dwight Zscheile signing off.

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.