In this new episode of Be & Think in the House of Trust, I welcome Felipe Cunha, Mestre Violinha, a Brazilian researcher & professor, and Capoeira Master, with a passion for collaborative processes and organisational change.

Felipe shares his profound insights into how Capoeira, the Brazilian martial art, can inspire us to foster a more human-centred, adaptable community and work culture:

- Capoeira is a decolonial way of moving through life

- Capoeira shows you how to create meaningful interactions and grow trust within teams and groups

- Capoeira generates new ideas and helps you connect with others on a poetic level

- Felipe explains his love for transformative learning processes that

challenge conventional systems and inspire deeper connections

- We dive into how embodied learning helps you grow in the world and transform yourself.

Connect with Felipe:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/felipe-cunha-b8325a9/

"Tabacaria", Fernando Pessoa, 1944. https://lyricstranslate.com/en/tabacaria-tobacco-shop.html-0

If you read Portuguese, explore his text "How Capoeira Can Teach us To Listen?" ("Como a Capoeira pode nos ensinar a escutar?") https://travessias.substack.com/p/como-a-capoeira-pode-nos-ensinar

Connect with Servane:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/servanemouazan/

Website: https://servanemouazan.co.uk

Subscribe to Conscious Innovation updates:

http://eepurl.com/hp0h55

Podcast Music Production from Series 04 Ep 45: Milig Mouazan-Strachan

:: 00:03

Hello. In a previous episode of the House of Trust, we looked at Capoeira as the art of playful leadership.

:: 00:10

And we'll continue our journey today with Capoeira, among other things.

:: 00:13

And we'll see what we can learn from it to instill positive change collectively.

:: 00:20

So today in the House of Trust, I'm pleased to welcome Felipe Dibreto Acuna.

:: 00:24

A researcher, a professor, and consultant. In his work, he's deeply interested in collaborative processes, organizational change, sustainability, the commons, education, and new economies, the whole program.

:: 00:37

He's also the author of the book Collaborative Economy, Recreating Collective Meanings.

:: 00:43

Felipe loves to explore the relational, how to be, to learn and interact together to create a more adaptive a human-centered community and work culture.

:: 00:53

Let's dive in. Hola felipe, bonjia. So good to have you here.

:: 01:01

Wangia.

:: 01:01

Listen, I have a poem for you. Maybe, you know, I'm going to say it in English. It's a poem by Fernando Pessoa.

:: 01:09

Tabakari, 1944. Just the beginning. I am nothing.

:: 01:13

Mm-hmm.

:: 01:15

I will never be anything. I can't want to be anything.

:: 01:20

Aside from that, I have within me all the dreams in the world.

:: 01:28

The reason I'm sharing this poem to open up this conversation, Felipe, is that Your work seemed to challenge the dominant discourse of constant growth, competition, acceleration.

:: 01:41

In society and you look at alternatives. And I wonder what dream Do you have in you? Do you carry with you?

:: 01:54

And which one is sparking your curiosity at the moment?

:: 01:56

Wow, that's quite a big question and i love this poem. Actually, this poem is also um I started this poem in my dissertation of masters and in my book Because there's a lot ain't nothing there's a lot in the silence.

:: 02:15

For example, when you are creating music songs And then the silence is the most complex thing in music. Why?

:: 02:25

Because everything is in silence. There's all the possibilities are in silence, right? And all the possibilities are in the nothing in the emptiness.

:: 02:35

So one of my dreams is that we could not pack so much things into everything in our life so we are packing so many things in the top of other things and we don't have time for anything uh the things that we are leaving is not making sense anymore for example

:: 02:56

The price of the things that we are paying does not make sense with the reality of everybody else.

:: 03:02

When we are, for example, in an economic crisis i mean like nationally or internationally or globally whatever Actually, the price of the things that are more basic for people is actually rising so It doesn't make sense in this let's say like this house management that economists should be

:: 03:26

Actually it's not according to what whatever people are living in the social realm is not connected with all these rules and these norms that are not in the in the same page.

:: 03:43

So one of my dreams is actually that people could be possible to be more in power of their power lives and not so much driven by uh driven by by a model that's not actually making sense for what we we should

:: 04:05

How we should live and how we should be in ourselves in the world.

:: 04:10

So more independent thinking. That's music to my ears. So that's your dream. And how do you pursue that exactly?

:: 04:11

Sweet. Yeah.

:: 04:21

Yeah, so I think… for a long time, I've been processing these ideas and trying to put them in many different in many different parts So one of the things that I started to look when I was in 2003 or 2004 when i was yeah

:: 04:41

Quite young. And I was very young excited with the idea of changing the world.

:: 04:50

And with all this I don't know, this naive idea of the youth that we are trying to change everything and it's But in that moment, they started to research about sustainability and all this sustainable development and all this. And so I i've

:: 05:09

Navigate through all the possibilities of sustainability until today in different scales and different things Since then, I started to teach to teach in different things different to different people and i started to work with uh organizational change I went to

:: 05:31

Yeah, I went to a master's, then we can speak later, but is a Schumacher college that's a very transformative learning institution And from that, I started to work with collaborative processes.

:: 05:46

And collaborative learning process and a collaborative intelligence into organizations, into communities And I impassion with transformative learning.

:: 06:00

I love the idea of how we can change the way of learning, how we can be deeper way of learning process that can actually challenged this the whole Yeah, the whole system that we were talking before, you know, I think the process of learning can change a lot

:: 06:18

And yeah, more or less that's more or less a bit of what I've been yeah doing it.

:: 06:26

Doing what you've been pursuing so among all these collaborative ways being together collaborative learning and all these things have picked up that you pay a lot of attention to capoeira, which is the Brazilian martial art.

:: 06:31

Yeah.

:: 06:41

And so we're going to dive in a few minutes if you want to. You look at it as a way to decelerate and create new relationships with our body, our mind and our relationship with others.

:: 06:44

Yep.

:: 06:56

So it just, in your own words, how do you describe it from capoeira, from your feeling, your experience, not just about what it is, you know, but How you receive it, what you get from it.

:: 07:10

This really nice. Yeah. Capoeira is… It's a lot to me is a lot to me I practiced capoeira since I was seven years old. So right now I've got 32 years of capoeira last year or two years ago i have

:: 07:29

The title of master of capoeira And so, uh, so It's a transition process of like my master says is just title of something that was already there Right.

:: 07:45

So… Capoeira for me beside let's say let's say like the the main uh definition that would be capu is a game Right. It's like, where it has many different elements. It's quite complex in its in all its elements because it has a cover seat

:: 08:08

Acrobatics uh like uh martial arts has elements of of clowning has elements of music has elements of self-defense.

:: 08:11

Acrobatics, yeah?

:: 08:25

Has elements of wow philosophy For me, Kapoir is a very therapeutic thing.

:: 08:32

Like I said in the in the other article. Capoeira is a civilization of therapy.

:: 08:39

Where we can change civilization through capueroa. Why is that?

:: 08:48

Oh, wow.

:: 08:49

What I reflect in capoeira or like machinist tour says, capoeira is to Brazil as yoga is to India and psych analysis to Europe.

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And why he's saying that because capita has huge capacity to transform.

:: 09:08

I've already seen this 32 years. I've already seen so many people being transformed in capueroa.

:: 09:13

And being transformed, deeply transformed. What I mean is to change their um their way of seeing the world changing their way of changing their way practicing practicing their selves into the social society or so.

:: 09:16

Mm-hmm.

:: 09:31

It changed people of they changed their jobs, they changed their meaning of life they changed many things. And what's happening in Caprited that it can be so transformative right So in all of these complex elements of capoeira it creates

:: 09:49

An atmosphere that is um that's super transformative. And why? Because transformative and why Capoeira is can… it is an embodied practice, right? That is not so such into the mind like psychoanalysis like it's not so rational so it brings

:: 10:13

Up and it opens all your senses So it opens your listening, your vision opens even your smells your your everything And so about how opening all of these senses at the same time it creates something else into into yourself.

:: 10:36

And capoeira is also has all this traditional ancestral energy that comes from Africa in the beginning and then in the In the Brazilian colonial times with enslaved people So it brings all this energy together. So it has a lot of

:: 10:59

Energy coming through this people from the last centuries so it when it comes now it comes with a lot of power So I believe that capilla has… have a huge capacity to change.

:: 11:18

And to change people, to change environments, to change the way of people relate with each other relate with each other themselves relate with Life itself.

:: 11:31

I mean, people can't see you right now, but you are As you talk about Kapoira, your eyes illuminate, radiate your you're moving through the screen and I'm just not that affected totally resonates with me probably the same when I talk about it.

:: 11:50

So it's something that's something wakes up all the essential parts of your body, your mind i mean your your whole self is in a state of awakeness Awakening.

:: 12:06

You talk, I'm curious about something. You talk about capoeira being a decolonial way of moving through life, an act of resistance, flexible, circular, playful.

:: 12:17

And always changing. So I'm wondering You know, rather extractive, always rushing world obsessed by growth. How can we use these capoeira principles, you know, to slow down and create a life that feels more Human, balanced, sustainable, more perceptive of contexts.

:: 12:21

Mm-hmm.

:: 12:37

Yeah, that's great um Like I said, one word that you said that is quite important is flexibility.

:: 12:49

In Kapwira you learned flexibility from the beginning.

:: 12:55

You have no choice. So what kind of flexibility, right? I think there's true kind of flexibilities.

:: 12:57

We have no choice.

:: 13:02

Right? Yeah. One is the flexibility of your body. Right. So you have to be Not exactly that you have to be because like my master's one cup whereas everything upgraded depends.

:: 13:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:: 13:16

Depends. The bed. So yeah, you should be or you have to develop a body flexibility.

:: 13:18

Yeah, it depends.

:: 13:26

Right? Because you have some movement in capoeira that if you flexible, you're going to have injuries you're going to Yeah, hurt yourself.

:: 13:39

Right. Or hurt the other. Even worse. So first rule in capoeira you don't have first ruling calculator is have fun Second rule in capoeira safeness. So have to be have to be safe, not danger for safe danger both you and the other

:: 13:45

Mm-hmm.

:: 13:55

Yeah.

:: 13:58

So flexibility in your body is important for that. The second flexibility I'm saying is the flexibility for your mind.

:: 14:01

Yeah.

:: 14:07

So you have to be flexible in your mind because capoeira is pure improvisation.

:: 14:10

Mm-hmm.

:: 14:13

You have to improvise if you have a plan that you want to make in capoeira in a jordan, for example, in the circle of capoeira If you have a plan that I want to do this sequence Then you go to the hard, it's not going to work.

:: 14:28

It's definitely not going to work. Why? Because it's in the complex of the game.

:: 14:31

I definition.

:: 14:34

Is not ruled. Capires not ruled, not even in the game, not even in the game Well, in the capital itself Apoir doesn't have a book of rules.

:: 14:41

Hmm.

:: 14:47

Doesn't have a book of norms it has social norms that are different and change it changed in every in different contexts So why that's something that is quite important as well is a way of learning local norms very localized very place-based

:: 14:56

Mm-hmm.

:: 15:07

Context norms And rooms.

:: 15:12

That is each group each other I can say that each holder has a different set of rules. Why? Because different contexts. These are different people that are there So there's a different social field in every place.

:: 15:25

So that's quite different from our world that is rural by norms that are for everyone. There's universal rules that are rules in the country that you are obliged to and doesn't make sense for you. But even though you are doing that so

:: 15:32

Indeed.

:: 15:41

That's another question that we can talk about capwaiting nowadays that are not there is not such freedom as well politically and in the in the capilla group least a bit of effort there. But coming back to the idea of the idea

:: 15:57

Yeah, there's a bit of everything. Mm-hmm.

:: 16:04

Of the decolonial so capoeira is basically the colonial because it was born in the south in the global south He was born into the colonial times into the other part of the colonial

:: 16:19

Scheme where it was born from into the enslaved people In Brazil, people coming from africa Right. So Well, it's basically a knowledge that it was not developed into the mainstream. It was not developed into Europe, United States.

:: 16:47

Whatever so is a very important decolonial knowledge that is not being so

:: 16:53

So recognized into the other parts of the world.

:: 17:00

An action cap meta is being usually more recognized as as i'm as a body practice then it's transformative.

:: 17:10

Capacity. And that's what And that's what I'm saying. It's yoga for example is recognized by its transformative oh like you know deep self development, etc. And Kapware has all of that.

:: 17:16

That's true. That's true.

:: 17:31

But it's not actually really recognized by it.

:: 17:33

So if you're in the flexibility of your mind in capoeira is in the game because like I said, if you have a plan and you have to change the plan because the game is is in its complexity it is changing all the time. It is full of improvisation

:: 17:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

:: 17:51

And in capoeira if you wants to As a professor, for example, if you want to, I want to do that with my students I want my students to do this.

:: 18:05

If you're not flexible. You're going to ruin yourself again.

:: 18:09

So… yes and your class. So you have to be flexible with your students have to be flexible with your own ideas. You have to be flexible with your Yeah, with all all your assumptions So if you're not flexible all the time

:: 18:14

And your class and your class.

:: 18:31

You're going to probably be in a bad situation. Probably hurt you. Yeah.

:: 18:35

Yeah, probably hurt yourself as well. I'm very badly bruised. Yeah. So what I'm taking from there, there is a strength in You know, building on practice, practicing, practicing, practicing, which probably feed your intuition when you're in the moment in a fight or in a play in a game.

:: 18:52

And being comfortable with not knowing. I mean, what we know for sure is we're going to play.

:: 18:57

That's true. And at some point we're going to get out the instruments and we're going to sing.

:: 19:03

And we're into clap and it's going to hurt. The muscles are going to hurt probably the day after.

:: 19:09

You're going to have to drink a lot of water. You're going to laugh.

:: 19:13

Are you going to sulk because you fall? But that's about it in terms of knowing what's going to happen. The rest is pretty much being comfortable with a situation where there's no and objective.

:: 19:29

Outside, enjoy yourself. Be cunning, be smart. And just enjoy.

:: 19:39

Mm-hmm.

:: 19:41

Definitely. This is the first ever incapware is to enjoy and have fun And for me, for example, if I go to Hoda.

:: 19:42

If there's one objective is to enjoy, right?

:: 19:55

That is fighting and kicking theirs each other and and bunching each other. I don't want to get in there.

:: 20:02

Well, I don't like it. Well, that's me. Of course, there's people that have fun with that, right?

:: 20:04

Mm-hmm. Not good. Not your template.

:: 20:12

So I went to, yeah, to have a good time, to have fun. And this incubator has this silent mutual deal that is quite magical in a way that in a way Ycapura is a game that has its martial art element that but

:: 20:33

But although it has this martial art element he doesn't have this conflict Essence.

:: 20:42

Because what Capua happens is that it doesn't have so much touching. If you touch someone kicking, it's wrong.

:: 20:52

I would say. Why? Because you didn't have the ability Two, don't.

:: 20:54

Hmm.

:: 20:59

Yeah. Yeah. So it has a silent mutual deal that, like I say that is that you know that you're going to kick me without trying to hit me And I'm going to… uh dodge.

:: 21:04

To withhold the kick. Yeah, to dodge the kick.

:: 21:24

But even knowing that you're not going to hit me, but I'm going to dodge because you trust me.

:: 21:30

That I'm going to dodge and i'm going to dodge to escape from your heating so has this very thin layer that is it has to be really how to stay connected so don't hit and to don't hurt.

:: 21:31

Mm-hmm.

:: 21:44

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So the sense of connectedness and the perpetual trust loop that goes into, it's like a conversation, a dialogue, a properly managed dialogue with a lot of its uncertainty and surprise and awkwardness. But still.

:: 21:51

Uh-huh. Yes.

:: 22:03

Exactly.

:: 22:05

That you're trusting that the other has the same understanding. So let's do a parallel. Drawing from the capoeira principles, what would you… suggest we start… to cultivate, I'm going to do that again.

:: 22:07

Yeah.

:: 22:13

Exactly.

:: 22:26

So drawing from Capoeira's principles, what would you suggest we start with?

:: 22:35

To cultivate attention, curiosity and care and trust in a group or in an organization. How can we transfer this knowledge, this wisdom

:: 22:42

That's great. For me, I like to to work with capoeira or through capoeira.

:: 22:52

Into few elements. So first of all first of them self-awareness.

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So you have to be aware of yourself. You have to be aware of your what is your limits What are your limits have to be aware of what you can do what you can provoke and how you provoke and then you come to the second level that is the relationship

:: 23:22

So first one is self-awareness. Second one is relationship so you have to understand this relationship with other people. So this means that you have all of your ideas you have all your all of your willingness But you have to deal with the other.

:: 23:41

So we have to see how much you can provoke the system as much as the season or i mean the other person or a group of people how much they can receive.

:: 23:53

So this is one of the principles of the game of cutware.

:: 24:00

So you have to, I don't know if it was clear enough

:: 24:01

Yes. Let me just ask you.

:: 24:07

So by provoking what should someone understand here? It's not about teasing and being sort of a constant Nagging person, what could people hear by provoke? There's provocation in capoeira.

:: 24:12

Uh-huh.

:: 24:13

Yeah. Okay.

:: 24:26

Okay. So when I say provoking the system or provoking other person or provoking the group provoking provoking an organization, for example, what I say is that When you bring a question.

:: 24:27

There's the fun element of it, but in the team and organization, it could be

:: 24:39

You are provoking something you know are challenging sadly are challenging or provoking or challenging when you bring an idea. You are provoking the system as well with idea you know When you bring an insight, when you bring an answer for another question. So it is different

:: 24:40

Oh, challenging, challenging. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

:: 24:52

Mm-hmm.

:: 25:02

This relationship of how you The word that I use, provoke how you provoke the system with many different possibilities and how this the system is possible to to respond.

:: 25:17

And receive it. Receiving, respond, absorb without being shocked or offended or leaving the space for that, right?

:: 25:20

So to receive

:: 25:22

Yeah. Yes. And actually, this is one of the things of Capoeira that If you have this awareness of this relationship that is this possibility of question and answer.

:: 25:37

But when you when you give a question the word that i use provoking you are actually bringing the opportunity to the other to create something else. So it's a co-creation. It's a constant co-creation Because it's not about defeating the other.

:: 25:56

What I'm saying in capoeira, right? So it's about defeating the other. If you, you know, it's like, ah, yeah, I kicked them in the face and then the other one fall down on the ground.

:: 26:07

It's not about that. It's about creating something else. It's about surprising. It's about Co-creating something very nice for you to the other and to everybody else that is watching the game. So transforming that, translating that to an organization is about how you can create very great conversations

:: 26:15

Right.

:: 26:25

Mm-hmm.

:: 26:30

How can we end these great conversations about creating something good create something nice from this relationship.

:: 26:37

Yeah. The other thing that I like to, the third thing that I like to to learn through capoeira is about culture.

:: 26:41

Hmm.

:: 26:50

So about respecting this collective rules this norm this collective norms and these collective values the collective meaning of things the meaning of life the meaning of your actions the meaning of your organization itself.

:: 27:13

So… So yeah, I think there's um The other thing that I really like to to work through Kapura that is super important is music And when we… We learn music it's good for our ears it's good for our soul

:: 27:32

Is good for our mind. But it's very interesting in a way connecting your ideas with something poetic.

:: 27:46

But what I mean poetic is not just like the poem that you bring in the beginning.

:: 27:52

Uh-huh. Yeah, generate voasis means to generate something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

:: 27:52

But poetic in the idea of poetic Creation.

:: 27:59

Who is exactly? It generates something, you know?

:: 28:03

So that's how we can use capoeira in a way of of um Yeah, changing organizations, changing groups or working to know a different way of learning That is, like I said.

:: 28:07

Yeah.

:: 28:19

The colonial that is embodied It's good to say that it's an embodied way of learning because usually our way of learning that we learned in the school that we learned the university that we learn after the modern times how the science is based is very rational.

:: 28:38

So much so rational so rationalized so into the mind that when we bring to the is actually opening other possibilities of learning.

:: 28:42

Mm-hmm.

:: 28:50

You know, so there is other ways of knowing that is in our body that is not just in our mind So this conversation of body and mind, so the body teaching your mind and your mind teaching your body They accept it.

:: 29:05

It's one thing. It's one big thing. Yeah. I don't know about you, Felipe, but when I'm not playing.

:: 29:13

I can think of capoeira. My body starts to move. So there is no body and mind disconnection. It's all one thing, you know, one thing indeed.

:: 29:13

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

:: 29:22

My God. And one thing that we need to share to everybody is that we are talking about it. But the only thing for you to, for the audience, right, for you to experience, to… understand what we're talking about. It's to have a go. It's to really practice it. Go bare feet or, you know, and try experience and

:: 29:46

Go and generate some learning with other people and with malice.

:: 29:48

Yeah.

:: 29:51

And smartness So thank you. Thank you all. Thank you, Felipe, for sharing with us your wisdom And what you learn from Kapoora, what you teach through Kapoira as well.

:: 29:57

Yeah.

:: 30:05

It's a lovely thinking conversation in a house of trust. Once again, thank you so much, Felipe.

:: 30:12

So subscribe now to these podcasts and your favorite platforms. Make sure you don't miss the next episode. And if you want more insights, more reflection and take part in events.

:: 30:13

Thank you, Suban.

:: 30:26

You know, to help you gain trust and clarity as you embrace social change and you ignite social change, head to my website, servanemouazan.co.uk.

:: 30:35

And subscribe to the regular conscious innovation updates. I look forward to thinking together again with you.