We talk about egg retrievals, fertilization, embryo grading, and blastocysts all the time on this podcast - but most of us never actually meet the people doing this work behind the lab doors. Today, that changes.

I'm so excited to welcome Jessica Manns to the show. Jessica is a senior embryologist and laboratory supervisor at Radiance Fertility who's been in the field since 2018, and she's made it her mission to help patients actually understand what's happening throughout the IVF process - not just live through it, but feel informed and empowered along the way. You probably already know her from Explaining IVF, her Instagram platform breaking down the science in a way that actually makes sense, or from her two books, The Trying Time and The Busy Little Embryo. She's also a huge advocate in our community and has served as a gestational surrogate herself, which gives her a perspective on this journey that very few people in this field have - both through the microscope and through the human side of it.

If you've ever wondered what's really happening to your eggs and embryos once they disappear behind that lab door, this episode is for you.

What We Cover:

• What actually happens after your egg retrieval - how embryologists find and identify the eggs in the follicular fluid
• ICSI vs. conventional fertilization, and how sperm quality plays a bigger role than we often talk about
• Embryo grading, demystified - what the Gardner scale numbers and letters actually mean (and why grading is more subjective than people think)
• Do frozen embryos "downgrade"? The truth about freezing, thawing, and embryo damage
• PGT testing - who Jessica recommends it for, and how age factors into that conversation
• Transfer day - what happens in the lab while the doctor is doing your transfer
• The ultra-fast thaw protocol Jessica helped develop, and how it's changing thaw times
• Behind Explaining IVF - how Jessica's Instagram page and her books, The Trying Time and The Busy Little Embryo, came to be
• Jessica's own surrogacy journey - why she chose to become a gestational surrogate, and what that experience taught her
• Her best advice for anyone in the middle of their own IVF journey

More from Jessica Manns:

Follow @explainingivf on Instagram

The Trying Time: A Comprehensive Guide to Infertility, IVF, and Family Building

The Busy Little Embryo

More from The Fertility Fight Club:

FertilityBlooms.com

Join The Fertility Fight Club

Fertility Coaching Programs

Follow on Instagram: @fertilityblooms

Helpful Timestamps:

• 00:00 Meet Embryologist Jessica
• 10:32 Handling Good and Bad News
• 15:51 ICSI vs Conventional IVF
• 19:05 Day 3 vs Day 5-7 Embryos
• 24:17 Embryo Grading Explained
• 32:11 Assisted Hatching
• 35:22 PGT Testing
• 37:33 Embryo Transfer Day
• 42:31 Ultra Fast Thaw
• 51:49 Surrogacy Journey
• 56:27 Best IVF Advice

Mentioned in this episode:

Fertility Fight Club

Hello, welcome back to the Fertility Fight Club podcast.

Today we're having a conversation I know many of our members will be able to relate to when going through IVF.

We'll be answering common questions about what actually happens after an egg retrieval.

We hear about fertilization, embryo grading, blastocysts, freezing, but most of us never get to meet the incredible people working behind the laboratory doors.

Today, we're gonna change that.

I'm so excited to welcome Jessica Manz to the Fertility Fight Club podcast.

Jessica is a senior embryologist and laboratory supervisor at Radiance Fertility.

Since beginning her career in embryology in 2018, she's helped countless individuals and couples build their families through IVF.

But what makes Jessica truly special is that she hasn't kept her expertise behind the laboratory doors.

She's made it her mission to help patients understand what actually happens throughout the IVF process and to make them feel informed, empowered, and hopeful along the way.

Jessica holds a bachelor's degree in natural sciences from the University of Pittsburgh and a master's degree in biomedical science with a specialization in assisted reproductive technology from Colorado State University.

Wow.

She has contributed to research and innovation in embryology, including helping develop the ultra-fast embryo warming protocol, advancing the science and care happening behind the scenes in IVF laboratories.

Many of you may already know Jessica as the founder of Explaining IVF, an educational platform on Instagram she's created to bridge the gap between science, what's happening in the lab, and what patients are actually living through when going through infertility.

Through her articles, podcasts, social media, and educational resources, she's helped thousands of people better understand IVF, answer the questions they didn't know to ask, and feel a little less overwhelmed by the process Jessica is also an accomplished author.

Her book, The Trying Time, which I have right here, is a comprehensive guide to IVF family building and has become an incredible resource for people navigating fertility by combining evidence-based information with compassion, emotional support, and expert insight.

She is also the founder of The Busy Little Embryo, a beautiful children's book that helps families explain IVF to young children in a simple, loving, and a- age-appropriate way.

Beyond the laboratory, Jessica is also an incredible advocate for the fertility community.

She serves on the boards of the MyoWings Foundation and Connected Nest, organizes Pittsburgh's Resolve Walk of Hope, and created the IVF Body Matching program to connect people going through infertility with someone who truly understands the journey.

She has also served as a gestational surrogate, giving her a unique perspective on family building that very few people h- in fertility have.

She understands this journey not only through the microscope, but through the human side of it as well.

Jessica, I'm so grateful you are here today.

I know our listeners are gonna walk away with a better understanding of what happens inside the lab, what embryologists are really looking for, and hopefully leave this conversation feeling a little more informed and a little more empowered and a lot more hopeful.

Hi, welcome to The Fertility Fight Club podcast.

Today, I have a really exciting guest.

She's somebody I have admired on Instagram for so long.

The more I dig into her, all the things she's doing, she makes me think, "Oh my God, I need to, like, catch up," because Jessica Manns is not only an embryologist, she teaches.

She does so many things.

She's an author of two books, one right here called The Trying Time, and The Busy Little Embryo, which I don't have a copy to show you guys right now because my toddlers brought it, uh, for book day, so I don't have it here.

However, we're gonna get into everything.

She's run support groups.

She has changed the world in embryology inven- in helping come up with this new technology that we'll discuss.

And I wanna just change the way people see embryologists and what they think, because they don't know.

They always believe as soon as you have your egg retrieval, your eggs go behind the desk, and they go in a dish, and they go in an incubator, and nobody knows.

So Jessica, welcome to The Fertility Fight Club.

Thank you so much.

yes, so I have been an embryologist since 2018.

Before that- Oh, wow … I graduated from the University of Pittsburgh with my bachelor's, and then Colorado State University with my master's.

And from there I got my first job in Charlotte, North Carolina.

I worked there for four years, where I learned all of my skills.

And then, when we moved, I became a traveling embryologist, or a per diem embryologist.

So I got to go to different clinics all across the country, and I got to, work there.

I got to help train new embryologists.

I got to help open new clinics.

So I really learned a lot about the different ways that labs operate, and I got to meet a lot of really great people along the way.

And when we moved back to Pittsburgh, I took a job where I am now the senior embryologist in a lab here, and I really love it.

One thing I learned though, whenever I was an embryologist, we called all of our patients with their updates.

So not every lab the embryol- Okay … the embryologist calls, but in that case I did.

And I-

No

… Jessica: learned, you know, that a lot of people who are going through IVF and are investing, you know, so much time and money and emotions into the process, they just don't really understand everything that's going on in the lab.

And I didn't think that was really fair- No … because it's a very delicate and complex process.

And so I started my Instagram page explaining IVF in 2022.

I love

it.

Yeah.

And I, just wanted to show people what was going on behind the scenes.

So there's some videos and some educational content.

Yeah.

And it really, took off, I mean, really fast.

I think that there was a need for it.

Yeah.

This was, you know, a couple years ago.

Yeah.

So there are a lot more accounts out there now showing everything that happens in the lab.

But at the time there weren't that many.

And I think it just happened to fit a little niche that needed to be filled.

And so I, I went with that- Well- And, mm-hmm.

Yeah

… Crystal: I think, Jess, you know what it is?

It's how you explain it.

'Cause, yeah, there is lots of accounts now, but the way you explain it, it makes it so simple for somebody to understand.

It's amazing.

Thank you.

Yeah.

That was my goal- That- … was to take these complex processes- Yeah … and break them down so that they're easier to understand.

And I always said if, I wasn't an embryologist, I would be a teacher.

So in this case, I get to do a little bit- … of both, I guess.

So it's great.

Yeah.

So- And I love it.

When did you decide you wanted to be an embryologist?

Like, uh, does a little girl wake up and go, "Hey, I'm gonna be an embryologist."

' Jessica: Cause

that wasn't on my radar.

I didn't know anything about fertility until I started trying, so.

Right.

When, when, when did you get that?

Oh, it's a funny story, really.

I always knew, you know, even from I- when I was younger, I really liked biology.

And so one of my classes, I took, you know, AP biology, and I took anatomy and physiology, and I really liked, not only biology, but the women's reproductive system, you know, pregnancy and hormones- Okay

and the, the menstrual cycle, all of that.

but I really- Yeah … liked lab work as well.

So I really liked being at the bench and working on the microscope.

And so in my, in high school, I had to do a project, like a what do you wanna be when you grow up kind of project.

Okay.

Okay.

And I didn't really know at first, you know?

I, I kind of thought, "Okay, maybe I'll be a doctor, an OBGYN. I, I don't know." So I did a little bit of research, and I kind of, you know, remembered googling, women's reproductive health lab jobs or biology jobs.

And y- just kinda combining- Yeah … my interests, you know, just to see what was out there.

And that's when I learned- Yeah … about embryology.

And you know, I graduated, I'm, I'm f- uh, almost 34.

So I graduated high school- Okay … a while back.

And at the time, embryology, it wasn't what it is now.

You know, there are a lot more clinics now than- Yeah … there were before.

People used to have to travel to big cities, to do IVF- That's true

before.

It's not like it is now where there are more and more clinics.

So I knew- That's

right

… Jessica: I really wanted to do it.

I just didn't really know how to get into it.

And so my path deviated a little bit here and there, but after I got my bachelor's, I learned about this really great program at Colorado State University.

It's a Master of Biomedical Science that specializes in assisted reproductive technologies like IVF.

And, uh- Oh … when I got accepted, I was so excited because that meant that I could finally, you know, I felt like I was on my path to finally being an embryologist because I just didn't know how to get there before that.

That is amazing.

Yeah.

I didn't really think you were gonna say you figured it out in high school, 'cause, like, nobody figures out anything in high school.

So that's really amazing, Jessica.

Oh, thank you.

And then- I wasn't sure if I'd get there or not- And- … but it, I knew I wanted to do it, so.

That's amazing.

And, like, I'll just say from personal example is, like, for me, like, re- reproductive health was, like, never even on my radar.

Like, we never talked about it, right?

So the fact that you had that, those resources and that, that, um, intuition when you were in high school is amazing.

Thank you.

And that just shows all the good things you're doing.

Uh, you're- Thank

you

… Crystal: and you're pretty young, so that's amazing.

I love it.

I love it.

I am so happy you're here listening to my show, The Fertility Fight Club.

I really need your help with something super easy.

It's a huge help for you to like and subscribe on your favorite platform so you never miss an episode.

It's a small thing, but it helps us reach more women like you who need this community.

Thank you so much for being here and supporting the work we're doing.

Now, back to the show

So, okay.

that's the moment you decided you wanted to be an embryologist.

What made you think you wanted to do things outside the lab besides when you notice, like, do people get to meet you, or do you just give them the phone call with the good or the bad news?

How does that work-

We do-

… Crystal: in most clinics?

We- In

Canada, normally people don't meet the embryologist.

Oh.

Well, we do a little bit of meeting before the egg retrieval.

We do what's called a timeout where we go in- Okay … and we, we'll just m- it's very brief.

It's more getting your name and your date of birth, going over your treatment plan.

Okay … but that's pretty much the extent of meeting, and then after that it would be the phone calls.

And then again, before the embryo transfer- Yeah … we'll go in and we'll, ID you, name, date of birth.

Usually you get a picture of your embryo you get to take home.

Yeah.

So we do get- Yeah … some, you know, one-on-one with you.

And it depends on the size of the clinic, too.

You know, in a smaller clinic you're gonna get- Right … a little more individualized care.

With a bigger clinic you might not get, you know, you might have one embryologist one day and another another day.

So it does vary, but-

Okay

… Jessica: typically there's some level of interaction at one point or another.

Oh, that's amazing.

I'm gonna just jump ahead 'cause you mentioned calling clients, and I know right now, some of the clinics, the embryologists are starting to call, as opposed to before it was the doctor calling, right?

And that must be the hardest call when you have devastating news.

Yeah.

But then also the best on the flip side when you tell them you ha- they have some good embryos.

How do you deal with that?

'Cause that must just, like, gut you 'cause you're the bearer of that bad news.

Yeah.

It's tough.

How- Those conversations

are- I don't know.

I don't even know

… Jessica: they're hard.

Yeah.

I, I always say that the, really the doctor, the physician, is the one who's going to be talking to the patients first, and my hope is always that they are given realistic expectations for the cycle.

so whenever I call- Okay … even if it's bad news, most of the time the patients are, you know, they're not expecting the bad news, but if they hear it, they're, they're almost- No … they have a little bit of a buffer maybe- They're prepared … so that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're a little more prepared, but that's not always the case.

Sometimes unexpected things happen- No … and, uh, it's completely out of our control.

And what I have learned- Yeah … is, just, uh, to be very, I don't know the right word, but when I give bad news- Yeah … I always give people a minute to process.

You know, sometimes they might cry.

They might- Okay

they might be upset.

And then I always pause after everything I tell them, and I kind of give them a minute to, to process, to ask any questions if they have them.

But what I always say is, "Why don't you go ahead and take some time, think about what questions you might have, and call back whenever you wanna talk more."

And nine times out of 10- Oh … that's what people do.

They'll, they'll, they'll process the info- Amazing … maybe share it with their partner if they need to.

Yeah.

And then they'll call back and say- Yeah … "Okay, like, now that I've kind of processed everything, let's talk about why that could have happened, what we could do different next time."

And typically that conversation is a little bit better.

that's an amazing thing because I hear this all the time, Jess.

the embryologists will call them, and they'll be like, "You had bad egg quality." 'Cause some people-- sometimes not all embryologists are created equal, just like anything else in the world, and some are really busy.

Most are really busy, sorry.

And sometimes it was like, they'll be like, "Your eggs, your egg quality was horrible." And then they, they hang up, and the girl's left devastated.

Or even if it is good news, they'll call me and say, "Crystal, I got, like, six or seven good embryos.

I have no idea what grade she has.

It's all a blur." Right?

So even when it's good news, whatever you guys tell them that fir- first day, it's, it's gone because they're either filled with so many emotions.

And the anxiety of those last six days or seven days in some case are so tough.

Yeah.

It's like- Yeah … they just don't even know what you said.

So they're oftentimes, "Can you call the embryologist back and ask what she actually said? When do I have available?" So yeah, that would be- Yeah.

That's so hard.

Well, and, and I- That is so hard … encourage anyone to call back and ask the questions.

Or say e- even better, say, "Can you send me a message through the portal?"

That way you have everything in writing.

You could just say- Yeah … you know, "Like we talked- You can focus … and I didn't quite understand," or, "I have more questions." Portal messages are great, and it's good for the embryologist too because we, our schedules are busy.

You know, we have, uh- Yeah

procedures that we do during the day.

So sometimes being on the phone can be difficult.

So even just asking- Yeah … them to send a, a message is easier for them.

And then you, yeah, you get everything in writing too, so you don't have to worry about writing it down and, you know, translating it properly.

So just a word of advice is if you have questions, please ask them.

Absolutely.

I mean, you're, again- Absolutely … you're putting so much into the process.

You deserve to know what's going on.

So much.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So, so much.

So Jessica, what's your favorite part of being an embryologist?

My favorite part is definitely doing the embryo transfers because I know how much has gone into getting to that point of- Mm

the egg retrieval, the, ICSI or insemination, the embryo growth.

Sometimes there's PGT, freezing.

So there's so much that goes into that.

So when we finally get to that embryo transfer process, I'm always so excited that y- you know, to see everybody there.

I feel like the mood is usually pretty happy and high in the, operating room before we do the transfer.

Oh.

Yeah, I never even thought about that.

Yeah.

Now, take me back.

When you go… After an egg retrieval, so you're there.

The doctor sucks out all the, the follicles, and then what happens?

'Cause they go in the, the lab and he passes them back.

'Cause I've had many retrievals.

All you can hear is, "Got one, two," and you hear-

the counting, right?

what happens after that?

What do you guys do?

What's the first step?

The first step is we, look at the fluid, and we find the eggs within that fluid.

So when you do an egg retrieval, you actually aspirate or you suck up the, all of the fluid and the egg and the follicles.

Okay.

So our job is to go through all that fluid and find those eggs.

' Crystal: Cause they're small.

They are.

They're so small.

They're, they're small, but they're actually surrounded by cells called cumulus cells, which surround them inside the follicle.

So they're a little bit easier to find- Okay … 'cause they're surrounded by sort of a cloud of cells.

And so what we do is we actually- Oh … remove those extra cells before we do the insemination most of the time.

The only time we don't is if we're doing conventional IVF, where we put the eggs and sperm together in the dish overnight.

We don't clean them for that.

But if we're doing- Right … ICSI or freezing- Yeah

we will clean all those cells off, so we get those nice, round, tiny eggs.

Oh my goodness.

So let's go to ICSI.

What's, what do you like?

What do you prefer people would do, ICSI or natural?

Or not natural- Conventional … still natural, but you know.

Yeah.

Conventional.

Yeah.

I guess it's more natural, right?

But, I definitely- Yeah

prefer ICSI, and the reason I prefer ICSI is because I've seen too many times with conventional IVF where there's really low fertilization or no fertilization.

And I think a- Yeah … lot of that is because people who are doing IVF are there for a reason, and a lot of the times it's because whatever's happening when they're trying, at home or trying naturally, the egg is not being fertilized properly, and that could be leading to- Yeah

development, developmental issues.

So ICSI bypasses all of that.

It ensures one sperm gets into each mature egg, and so it actually increases your chance of success, versus hoping that the sperm get to the egg, one fertilizes- That it does … it properly.

Right.

There's a lot of variables there.

Absolutely.

So skipping those variables is, yeah, it gives you, it g- Yeah … really does give you the best chance of success.

Yeah, especially when there's any- It does … kind of male factor.

Yeah.

And I've noticed since, I'm not blaming COVID by any means, but since COVID, I noticed the sperm numbers have really dropped down, and pretty much every time I look at a semen analysis or a D-frag, we have work to do, boys.

Yeah.

Right.

I give them the menu.

I give them the diet.

I give-- I do all the supplements.

I do all the stuff for the guys, as well as the girls, of course.

But I've noticed it takes two, and a lot of times we miss that, right?

So- Yeah … yeah, that just helps.

Yeah.

No s-

Yeah

… Jessica: sperm is such an important factor.

It's 50% of the- 50 … the DNA inside of that embryo, and it gets overlooked a lot.

But, It does … the worldwide male fertility is declining.

So- It is … we don't know exactly what that means, but it's something we need to keep an eye on because it will- Absolutely … likely mean that more people will need IVF with ICSI in the future.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Let's go back to if you break somebody some bad news.

And like I, I mentioned earlier before the call, one of my clients, as soon as I get done here, I have to call her 'cause she had bad news from the lab- Mm-hmm … this morning.

Do you carry that with you?

Because I know for me, I just, like, my girls, I just, like, my heart breaks for them.

Like, how do you, how do you deal with the good and the bad and the ups and the downs kind of thing?

It is.

Yeah.

It's hard.

I, I don't think anybody likes to give bad news, especially in our field.

No.

No.

Sometimes, especially if it's your first IVF cycle, I always say that your first cycle is sometimes diagnostic.

Because in a way-

Yeah

… Jessica: it gives us the chance to look at the eggs, which we wouldn't have been able to do before because they're in the body.

Right.

It gives us the chance to look at- That's right … the shape of the eggs, the, are they granular?

Is there-- Or it gives us a chance to really look at that sperm.

Like, is there, are there issues that maybe we didn't see on the semen analysis that are really prominent?

Is the fertilization really low?

You know, it lets us look at those- Yeah … step by step, and sometimes it helps us to diagnose, hey, here's what's going on.

Maybe we can do something different in a, in a future cycle that could, you know, have different results- That will help

or maybe not.

But It's sort of a- Yeah … silver lining in the whole bad news is that now we know and now we ha- What's going on … know how to move forward.

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

Yeah.

It's tough.

It's really tough.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So okay, so now we have-- we're fertilizing the eggs, and now let's talk about day three.

Most of us, most clinics aren't using day three embryos.

But how do you feel about day three, day five?

Day six I know there's some controversy.

Some, some labs are even using day seven.

Mm. Where's your happy place?

Where would you like all embryos to be?

Day five or day six?

I definitely pass day three if, if possible.

Mm-hmm.

And I only say, you know, day three, there are cases where I could say yes, I, I get where you would want to do a day three transfer, you know, freeze on day three.

But if an embryo isn't going to develop past day three in the lab, there's a very good chance it's not going to develop past day three in the body as well.

It's just putting it into a different environment.

Granted, the uterus is the most natural environment, right?

More than- Yeah … an incubator.

But incubators are programmed pretty well to mimic the reproductive tract, and that's why embryos do so well now.

I mean, we have-

Yeah

… Jessica: pretty high development overall.

if I had to pick, I definitely prefer day five onward, the blastocyst stage, because at that point the embryo has already, passed one of the most significant declines, which is after day three of development.

So if it can get past day three of development, it definitely has a higher chance of success than it would before day three, because we just don't know- It's-

what it's going to do after day three, right?

We

don't know.

Yeah.

Um, day five- Yeah … when you're looking at statistics, day five embryos are going to give you your highest chance of success, but not significantly so above day sixes.

Yes, a day five statistically is better than a day six, but not enough that if you have a day five and a day six that I would panic, you know?

You

wouldn't.

Okay.

It's when we get into the day seven embryos that those numbers start to drop, and that's because the development on day seven is slower than what we consider- Is slower … normal.

It doesn't mean day sevens can't make healthy babies.

I've, I've seen it happen.

It can absolutely happen.

Okay

but if you have a day five, a day six, or a day seven embryo, those day fives and day sixes are going to be your best- Sure … chances for success.

You kind of answered this, but I have girls that will be like, "Crystal, I have one," like a lower grade, and we'll talk about grading- Mm-hmm … in a minute, but a lower grade day five, but I have two really good day sixes.

Mm-hmm.

What do you think I should transfer?

And I know it's not up to me, but I always get what's my opinion.

Yeah.

What would you do in that case?

The girls are always, seeing day six as not as good as day five because-

Mm-hmm

part of the research and part of we're so used to day five, day five, day five, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So they think of day six like they, they failed a little bit, which we always take it so personal, right?

So-

Sure

… Crystal: what do you suggest?

What would you suggest?

It's a good question.

That's gonna definitely be clinic dependent because there are mixed studies.

Some will tell you that a day five- Mm-hmm … regardless of the grade is going to be better than a day six, where others will tell you that a day six good quality is going to be better than a day five poor quality.

At the end of the day, the numbers aren't going to be so significant that it will make a big difference, but that is something that is clinic dependent.

They each have their own protocols for that because those are tough situations.

Okay.

It's hard to say- Yeah … for sure.

Yeah.

can you tell in the lab, like from a embryo, can you tell what, before pre- PGT-A if something's abnormal or you-- it's an embryo, you send it for testing and it is what it is, or you guys kinda know in the lab without-

we can't tell anything genetically speaking in the lab You can't see.

Okay … like, there's no way to know the genetics.

All we can tell at that point is what stage of development it's at and how the two cell lines in the embryo look in their appearance.

But- Okay … it doesn't actually mean anything because poor quality embryos can be genetically normal, and the most gorgeous AA embryos- Oh, I know

can be genetically abnormal.

So unfortunately- Yeah … no, we have no- Okay … now, a good quality embryo is more likely to be genetically normal, but there's no way to know for sure.

True.

And that's a question I always get asked.

the girls assume that you guys see, so they're like, "Why did they make me test?

They could have probably seen-" Mm-hmm … "what it was.

You just didn't know what it was." And I just- Right … wanted you to answer that one.

Yeah.

'Cause I get that question

a lot.

It, it's, uh, we get that a lot with sperm too, because- Yeah … for anyone who doesn't know, it's the sperm that actually, will d- indicate if the embryo is a male or female because the sperm- Yeah

carries the X or the Y chromosome.

But we can't pr- we can't tell if a sperm- You can't see … carries an X or Y chromosome.

Yeah.

Right?

We can't.

So we can't- No … predict the sex of the embryo.

You heard that from Jessica Mann right now.

You cannot predict by the sperm because- Yeah … I think that's one of the things people Google most, Jess-

Mm-hmm

is can the embryologist see under the microscope if it's male or female sperm?

Nope.

And I get phone calls all the time.

A lot of people want family balancing or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

In Canada, we don't do that at all.

So a lot of my Canadian clients will call and they're like, "We want a girl now. We want a boy now."

They wanna balance their family.

Can the embryologist pick- this sperm.

So you heard it from Jess.

We cannot do that- Yeah.

No … in

life.

The only definitive way is PGT-A, unfortunately, if you have that option.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Let's talk about the grading 'cause that's another thing people are constantly googling.

I had a couple last week, they just got their embryos back, and I set up a call to go over everything of, of what they got back and what, what it looked like while they're waiting for their testing.

Mm-hmm.

And they're like, "Well, we already googled, and this one's really bad, and on some reports, on some…" You know, if you google, the girls will get the grid, right?

And it will show them- Mm … the scoring.

But there's like 30,000 of the grids, and they all are like, maybe a 3AB or a 3BB will be okay on one, but poor quality on the other.

So they don't know.

Yeah.

So- Yeah … how do you, how do you rate?

Is it a beauty contest?

grading is-- It's important in a sense, but it's not everything.

So you have to remember embryo grading is subjective, so one embryologist might grade your embryo a little differently than the one sitting next to it.

Like, you know, if there's- Uh-huh … one, an embryologist next to me, she might say, "Oh, that's a 3AB," and I might say, "I don't know.

I think it's a 3BB because it's not super compact."

You know, so it is subjective.

Yeah.

And that matters to an extent, but you're not going to have an embryologist that says, "Oh, that's a CC," and I might say, "Oh, that's an AA." I mean, those are drastic, but just know- Those are drastic … the little variables.

Yeah, they can change between- Yeah … embryologists, and that's just, because it's subjective.

The other thing like- Absolutely … we just talked about is grading, it is important, sure, but again, it can't tell you if your embryo is genetically abnormal or normal.

It can't tell you if the embryo is going to implant or not.

All it can do is sort of help rank your embryos for when it comes time to transfer, and we can say- Yeah

"This one we, was ready on day five, and we gave it an AA grade or a BB grade," and we can kind of go from there.

But, and every, every lab is going to have a slightly different system too.

The majority of labs- Yeah … use something called the Gardner scale, but some labs have a unique grading system too that can get a little- That's true

confusing sometimes.

So-

So tell me about the Gardner s- system.

Like What does the first letter represent- Mm-hmm … the number and the last letter?

Yeah, definitely.

For

those that don't know.

So- 'Cause there's confusion- Yeah … on, on that as well, so- Oh,

yeah … we

wanna

hear it from you.

That's one of the main questions I get asked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So we use the Gardner scale when the embryo enters the blastocyst stage of development, which normally occurs around late day four, early day five of development.

And at that point, the cells in the embryo have started to merge together to form something called a morula, and a small little cavity called a blastocoel has actually formed inside that morula, and that's when it enters the blastocyst stage, when that blastocoel or that cavity is formed.

So- Ah … we use, a number and two letters for the Gardner scale.

And again, every clinic might be a little bit different, but this is the generic Gardner scale.

Okay.

So the, the first is the number.

It goes one through six, and that indicates the stage of development.

So stage one means that that cavity is present, but it's taking up less than half of the embryo's volume.

So it's there, but it's not quite taking up half the space.

That's an early blastocyst.

We give that a one.

A two is a blastocyst, so at that point the cavity's taking up more than 50% of the embryo's volume.

Okay … a three is a full blastocyst.

At that point, that cavity's taking up 100% of the embryo's volume, but the embryo is still the same size.

It hasn't grown at all in diameter.

Ah.

Okay.

But what happens is after that point, the embryo will actually start to grow in diameter, and the shell or the zona that surrounds the embryo starts to thin out.

And at that point, it's called a four or an expanded blastocyst.

And then a small hole will form in that shell, and the embryo will begin to hatch from it.

So at that point- Okay … it's a five or a hatching blastocyst.

And then when it's fully hatched from the shell, it's a six, a fully hatched blastocyst.

Ah, okay.

Yeah,

yeah.

People want those.

People are always asking about hatching, so yes, that's important.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And since they always want-

And there are cl- there are clinics that do, assisted hatching.

As- yeah.

So sometimes that grading, they have something called the modified Gardner scale, where you kind of-- the embryo will be hatching out even if it's technically not a five.

So it gets a little confusing, but at, at that point, we're really looking for what is the stage of development if that embryo were not hatched out.

So we kind of have to- Okay … estimate it from there.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what they mean when you thaw the embryos, the grading actually can go up.

Yeah.

Yeah, the grading can change after the thaw.

Sometimes it can get better, and sometimes there could be damage from the freezing and thawing.

It, it's not very common, but there are times when the grading can go down post-freezing and thawing, and we can talk about that in just a second.

I'll go over what the two letters are first to-

Yeah,

please … finish up the grading.

Sure.

So the first letter refers to the appearance of the inner cell mass.

So when you look at the embryo, that's often a little group of cells that sits off to the side.

That's what develops into the baby.

And we grade that on an A, B, C scale, with A being the highest, meaning it's very compact.

B means it's fair, which is perfectly fine.

Having a B grade is not a bad thing.

It just means average.

No.

A C grade means below average.

And some clinics will, biopsy or freeze embryos that are C qualities, others don't.

Every, you know, there, those, Everything … protocols are going to change between clinics.

And then the- Yeah … last letter refers to the appearance of the trophectoderm.

Those are the cells that sort of line the shell of the embryo, and they develop into the placenta.

And we grade on an A, B, C scale, again, with A being the best, meaning a lot of uniform cells, no gaps, and, you know, textbook perfect.

B is fair.

Again, fair is perfect, totally fine.

Fair is fair.

Perfectly fine to have, yeah.

And then C- Yeah.

… is below average.

So, again, and, clinics will have different policies regarding C quality.

So that's where- Okay … you get your letters from.

So for example, if you have a 5AB, you have a hatching embryo with an above average inner cell mass and an average trophectoderm.

It's great embryo.

So even if it's a B. Great

embryo.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

A lot of people assume if they have a h- 5AB or a 5AA, that it's guaranteed into a baby.

There's a lot of- Right … other steps, and we can discuss- Yeah … that after.

But that's- Yeah … I know they're super excited, but we gotta make sure the uterus is Everything's good, and it just doesn't mean you're on a home run yet.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

You're farther along, but you- yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

You're- Yeah … uh, I, I don't know, you're still in the game, I guess is a good way to put it.

You're in the game.

You, you're in the game.

Right.

Exactly.

Which, yeah, unfortunately is a scarily accurate term.

Yes, you're still in the game at that point.

Yeah.

But yeah, yeah, just because you have a beautiful embryo, that doesn't necessarily mean it will be genetically normal.

It doesn't mean that it will implant.

It d- doesn't necessarily guarantee that it will, result in a healthy live birth, which I wish it did.

That would be great.

But, even the best embryos sometimes can be unsuccessful.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're listening to The Fertility Fight Club podcast, and while I hope every episode gives you new information, better questions to ask, and a little more hope, I also know that sometimes a podcast just isn't enough.

Maybe you're overwhelmed by all the advice.

Maybe you don't know what to focus on first, or maybe you're tired of being told everything looks normal when you know something is being missed.

That's where The Fertility Fight Club community comes in.

Inside the community, you're not only just listening to me, you're working with me.

You get live coaching, support calls, expert conversations, fertility education, practical resources, fertility-friendly meal plans, and a community of women who genuinely understand what this journey's like.

I help you cut through the noise, recognize the red flags, ask better questions, and focus on what actually moves the needle forward on your fertility journey.

So if you're ready for more than just information and you want real support and a plan, come join us inside the Fight Club because your journey is hard enough.

You shouldn't have to be fighting alone.

What about assisted hatching?

What is that?

'Cause-- And do you recommend it?

Do you like it?

What are your thoughts?

Mm-hmm.

So assisted- Yeah … hatching is when… And, every clinic's a little bit different, but the majority of- Mm … clinics on day three will take the embryos out of the incubator just briefly, and they'll hatch a small hole in the shell of that embryo.

And what that does is it helps the embryo to, start hatching out of the shell.

And there are a couple reasons why we do this, but I can tell you the reason why I like to do it.

Because sometimes when embryos develop, they have a lot of fragmentation, or they have a lot of extra cells that aren't actually part of the embryo, but they're kind of cramping up that space inside the shell- Oh

which can sometimes prevent the embryos from expanding the way that they need to.

But with hatching- Okay … as they start to expand, they can actually kind of push out those cells that they don't need through that little hole that we create.

And I personally think that you get better development when you do that because those embryos are given more space to expand the way that they're supposed to, and they can conserve the energy they would use to hatch out and for development.

Oh.

So-

Okay

… Jessica: yeah.

And it, and it does make embryo biopsy easier.

So it- Okay … certainly, yeah.

And it also ensures that the embryo is able to hatch out of the shell because it has to do that in order to implant.

So if you don't do assisted hatching, and the, the transfer's unsuccessful, you won't know if it's because you didn't hatch the embryo out or not.

The data surrounding assisted hatching shows that there's-- it doesn't really change outcomes, but-

Yeah

… Jessica: I do think it is beneficial regardless.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

We're gonna take that advice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

' Crystal: Cause people always ask me what sh- what should they do.

So thank you.

Yeah.

That's, that's-

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you mentioned, damaging the embryos with freezing.

Mm-hmm.

And that's when peop- people always say, "I want to do a fresh transfer 'cause I don't want to damage." Well- what are your thoughts?

How many-- What's the percentage, or what are your thoughts on freezing and unfreezing and that kind of thing?

Yeah.

So anytime you do any kind of manipulation to an embryo, freezing, thawing, any biopsy, there's always going to be that risk of damage to the embryo.

However, when it comes to freezing and thawing, more than 95% of embryos survive without any damage.

So that's a pretty big number.

The ones that are normally more damaged are the ones that are poor quality to begin with, and the reason is because when you freeze and thaw embryos, some of those cells will get damaged one way or another.

The, the cells have to re-remove water when they're frozen and take in what's called a cryoprotectant, and then they have to do the opposite when they're thawed.

And sometimes there are abnormalities in the cells, and sometimes some of the cells don't survive.

Okay.

But when you have a poor quality embryo to begin with, a larger percentage of those cells run the risk of being damaged versus a good quality embryo.

And so that's when you can get some of those downgrades- Okay … in the grading.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But I, I will say- Okay, that makes sense … the majority of embryos- Um- … the freezing and thawing is pretty effective, pretty efficient and effective now, so it, it's pretty rare that they don't survive, although it can happen.

What about testing?

How do you feel?

For

PGT?

For P- PGT,

yeah.

I think- Do you recommend it?

Ugh, it's a tough question.

You know, I, I always try to say what would I do if it were me in that situation, and-

Yeah

… Jessica: it, it's always hard.

You know, there are specific populations where PGT I would absolutely recommend it, and that is for women who are in their upper 30s or, or early 40s or higher.

And the reason- Or higher … is because there's a higher chance of the embryos being genetically abnormal.

And h- here's the thing about genetically abnormal embryos.

They either won't implant or they run a very significant chance of miscarrying.

And- Yeah … we don't want that.

You know- No … having a genetically abnormal embryo is devastating, but a miscarriage is-

Yeah

One step ahead- Yeah … which is a lot harder.

And so if you're old-- if you are, we call it advanced maternal age, but- Yeah … usually 36 and over, I definitely do recommend it.

If you're younger, I say, you know, talk with your doctor about your options because technically you have a higher chance of having embryos that are genetically normal when you're younger.

The younger you are, the higher egg quality, and I, I'm sure most women- All of that … know that by now, that as you age- … that declines.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, under, like under 36, I guess I would say just talk with your doctor about the best option because it kind of varies from person to person, but, Mm-hmm

technically it's not indicated, so it's really a personal preference at that point.

Okay.

This is kind of a wild question that, people Google, I think, and I've got- Okay … asked to ask you.

Do IVF babies-- Are there more male or female babies with IVF?

That's a good question.

It's pretty close to 50/50.

However, I-- You know what?

I just read something about this the other day.

Yeah.

Let me see.

There something must have came out too because I got a couple messages.

Yeah.

There is, it's slightly more likely that they're male, but it's not, like it's not- But

it's a small percent.

Right.

It's not much more than a 50/50.

But yes, there's a smaller percentage of- … iVF babies being male, and we don't know the reason for that, but,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And now let's move on to we have the embryos, and now we're ready to transfer.

Mm-hmm.

What does your day look like in that transfer, What do you do at, to support the doctor for transfer?

Yeah.

So the day of transfer, so if it's a fresh transfer, we just put the embryo into a transfer dish.

If it's a frozen transfer, we thaw the embryo earlier in the day, so that gives us time to, thaw the embryo and make sure that it's expanding, which is what we want to see post-thaw.

We're hoping that the embryo expands-

Okay

As water reenters its cells.

And then what we do in the lab is the doctor will put a catheter through the cervix into the uterus, typically using ultrasound guidance, so you can see the catheter going into the uterus.

And once the catheter's in the uterus, the embryologist will then, take the catheter and will load the

embryo into the catheter under the microscope inside the lab.

Some people can see it, others can't.

And then they'll bring the, the catheter with the embryo into the transfer- Transfer … room.

Yeah.

And the doctor will, put the-- So I guess with a catheter, often there's an outer and an inner part, and often the outer part stays in while the inner part comes out.

We load the inner part, and they f- kind of feed it through the outer part of the catheter into the uterus, and you can see it on the screen as the tip of that catheter enters into the uterus.

And then once it's in place, we gently plunge the embryo with a little bit of fluid into the uterus.

Sometimes the doctor does it, sometimes the embryologist does it.

It, it varies.

It's amazing.

So you guys really are making babies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're helping, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're helping.

You're helping.

Now, what about, AI?

To see the PGT-A testing for AI- Mm-hmm … and what's that gonna look like for embryology?

What, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah.

I think AI's already found itself in some labs.

It has.

And the majority of reasons we use AI right now is help with picking the best embryo for transfer.

Mm-hmm … that's what a lot of the technology right now can do.

It's still, I guess, experimental.

You know, it's, it's just a tool to help us.

It's not something to- Mm-hmm

replace what we're doing.

Yeah … but just sort of an assistant to help.

I think there will probably be more AI in the future, but I don't- Yeah … I don't know that it could ever take place of what we're doing.

You know, I don't- No … and if I were going through IVF, I would want to know that there's a person there who's- Of course

doing all of the steps, right?

So-

Yeah

… Jessica: but you never, I mean, there are companies that are trying to do fully automated IVF.

We'll see how that goes, but- I don't,

I don't know … you

know, right now it's just a tool that can help us with some of the things that we're already doing, which is great, if it can help-

Mm-hmm

pick the best embryo or whatever it might do.

That's, that's wonderful.

One of the questions I always get asked is if they have a few embryos, should they transfer their best embryo first or after 'cause they don't know what's going on?

Yeah.

That's- It's a good question.

It's

a tough, it's a tough one.

Yeah.

I, I guess that's more of a personal decision, right?

I wouldn't be the one to make- Yeah … that decision.

That's something I would say talk with your doctor about.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I, I'm not gonna tell anybody one way is right or wrong.

But I will say if you're going to do a transfer and your lining looks good and everything looks good, then if you want your highest chance then of that transfer working, then you would wanna do your highest quality embryo first.

But if you kind of wanna test the waters, in a sense, and go for a lesser quality embryo, I mean, you can do that if you'd like to, but if you're looking for the best- Yeah … chance of success, you'll want your highest quality first.

Okay.

a thing I learnt from your website, 'cause I think this is a big misconception, is they think you take the little embryo, and you freeze it in an ice cube.

And I learnt this from your Instagram, that it's not actually frozen in an ice cube, and there's a big thing on TikTok and Instagram saying, "My IVF baby loves popsicles," 'cause of course they were- … in a freezer for whatever long, right?

Yeah.

So are they frozen in an ice cube?

They're not.

They're not frozen in an ice cube.

Though, it's, it's a cute, you know… It's such a cute thing to say.

Yeah

… Jessica: one person said they call them her embryos on ice or something, and-

Yeah.

Very nice … that's perfectly fine.

When technically speaking, no, they're not on ice.

They're frozen in liquid nitrogen and inside of a, we call it a cryotank or a dewar.

And, liquid nitrogen stays at negative 196 degrees Celsius, which is really, really, really cold.

Really cold.

And we monitor the tanks, and we fill them to make sure that they always stay that cold.

Because if they get any warmer, cellular development can resume, which we don't want to happen.

We want them- We don't … frozen in time, literally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, so we have to make sure that they stay at that really low temperature and, But they're not on ice.

No, they're, they're in liquid nitrogen.

But that's okay.

Calling them on ice is totally fine.

I just-

I think it's cute as well

… Jessica: whenever I hear that sometimes I laugh a little.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think that's people h- that's how they visualize it.

So yeah.

Sure.

And now-

Yeah.

Yeah.

But no, you cannot- … put embryos in your freezer.

No, you can't.

Yeah.

And you were part of the ultra-fast, thaw protocol.

Tell us about that and what it is.

'Cause I thought, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Jessica's so young.

She's done so much." Tell us about that.

What is it?

Yeah, so I, I was part of the team that helped develop it.

It was a multi-team, accomplishment, but I g- I was lucky to be part of one of the- Amazing … teams that helped for, with it.

Yeah, so before the ultra-fast thaw, which I'll talk about in just a second, it took about, 13 minutes to thaw an embryo because you would take it out of the liquid nitrogen, and then you would have to put it into one media, we call it TS or thawing solution- Okay

and then into three other media for about four minutes each.

So all in all- Okay … about 13 minutes.

But the ultra-fast thaw we found you actually don't need those last three steps.

You can do the thaw in- Ah … one minute, and the rates were, the same if not better than when you did all of the steps.

And so now, you know, this is great for really busy clinics who are doing 10, 15 transfers a day.

It only takes 10 or 15 minutes now to thaw those embryos versus hours before.

So,

Oh my God

… Jessica: yeah.

Yeah.

Game changer.

I was really lucky to-

Game changer

… Jessica: be a part of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow, that's amazing.

Now let's talk, let's take off from the lab a little bit.

And now Expanding IVF.

That is an- Mm-hmm

Instagram page, and we'll link it below if, if, I think you have everybody involved in the community already following you on there, but if they're not, we'll, we'll share it again.

Tell me when you created it, you wanted to like spread information so people knew.

And- As I said at the beginning, the way you share it and the graphics you use and the terms, you just, you make it so simple, and I think that's why it's, like, resonating with everybody.

So tell me, did you think it would, like, grow that quickly and that big?

'Cause it's amazing.

I had no idea.

I, I can't tell you how excited I was when I had my first 100 followers, honestly.

I had a very, I guess I had very low expectations for it when I started.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, it grew so fast and, it was just, again, yeah, I started it in 2022.

I actually threw my back out on the 4th of July in 2022, and I was kind of bedridden for a couple of days, and-

Okay

… Jessica: so, that's, I started it at that point.

I was sitting in bed and I was like, "You know what? I've been wanting to do this. I'm just gonna do it." And I had a couple of clips that I was able to loosely put together.

I was still learning at the time, but I had a few I was able to you know- … get together to make a, a couple videos, and people really loved it, and it was great for me because, again, I love teaching.

So if I could do-

Yeah

… Jessica: one thing, it's teach and do my job, and now I get to do both.

Oh my

gosh.

And,

Yeah

yeah, it's really grown since then.

People really like it and, I've done a couple of community things too.

We did weekly warrior posts for a while, the IVF- Oh … buddy matching program, which we talked about.

Yes.

I had to stop- Yeah … it unfortunately, just due to time constraints, but, it was really

great too.

Well, we're gonna discuss that further.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we have to conquer the world here, Jess.

The, the fertility world.

Absolutely.

Bring the world together.

Bring the world together, yeah.

So that is… It's just, like, I just love it, and I love all the, the feedback you get.

Like, if I read the comments, people are just so interested, and it, I really do believe it's how you're posting it, yeah.

Aw, thank you.

Yeah.

I appreciate

that.

What, what kind of feedback do you get?

Like, what, what are the girls responding to you, like, privately or whatever?

'Cause I think it's a game changer.

Like, the way you're- Yeah … putting that information out, it really helps explain.

Oh, thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Actually a lot of the messages that I get privately, they're not necessarily related to the content.

They're really people saying, "Hey, I have a question about my cycle. Is this something you could help me with?"

Ah.

Yeah, yeah.

Or,

you know, "Hey, here's a picture of my embryo. Would you mind taking a look at it?" You know, things like that-

Oh, cute.

I love it … which

always, yeah, always happy- Yeah … to answer those questions.

But those are the majority of questions that I get.

You know, people will say, "I'm a 42-year-old and I've done five cycles, and this is what they told me." What do you think?

"And what can I do?" So I get-- Those are- Yeah … the majority of messages that I answer in my inbox.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I've-- I'm already thinking I'm gonna have to have you on again, because I have a lot of women that are, as we say, like the older, ladies, and we have a lot of times that their eggs will be gray or they'll have- Mm-hmm

abnormalities with the things.

But that's a whole other topic, and I would love to dive into that later.

But not only do you do expanding IVF group, not only do you in the lab, but you've also written the two books.

And I have the one, The Trying Time, right here with me, which is so easy to understand.

It makes it, like, so easy for anybody trying to figure out what this whole process is.

You make it so simple.

So when- Well, thank you … did you think you were gonna write it?

How did it come about?

Because, like, How you lay it out is so simple, and it's like steps and broken up, and it's not like redundant information that you hear all the time.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you so much.

It was a really long process actually because I- I bet … I did go through Bloomsbury to publish it, which I'm super- Yeah … proud of.

But it was a process.

I had never published a book before, and I learned that it is not… You just, it's a lot of hurry up and wait.

So it did take a while-

but, you know,

it, it turned out- Kinda like the fertility process, hurry up and wait.

Yes, very, yes, yes.

A- absolutely yes.

Yeah.

In a sense, yeah.

But it was so great because I wanted to write a book to help people at any stage of the journey, and I w- I knew what I wanted in the book, and I knew that the topics that I really wanted to have in the book.

But without me going online and, doing the research and putting everything together, you know, it would've just been me writing, and I didn't wanna do that.

I wanted the information to come from professionals in the field.

Yeah.

And so I reached out to a lot of professionals, and some didn't have the time, which was perfectly fine.

But every chapter in the book has information- Yeah … contributed by professionals in the field- Yeah … and that is, that includes therapists who specialize- Mm-hmm … in infertility trauma and grief with, associated with loss.

Dr. Jeffrey Scher, who h- has so much knowledge about causes of failed implantation and pregnancy loss.

Megan Doyle is a wonderful certified genetic counselor- Yes, and- … who provided a whole chapter of information about PGT, and so on.

So it's all filled with this information that was voluntarily contributed by these professionals, which is way better than anything I could have written, right?

I mean- Oh … they are amazing.

And in each chapter also is a personal story that was contributed- Love it … by some of my followers that sort of relates- Yeah … to the information in the chapter.

Not only is it their story, but it's how their story can help the reader who might be going through- Yeah

something similar.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then you have The Busy Little Embryo book, which I, as I mentioned in the beginning- … my toddlers took it to daycare for their reading book day or whatever they called it last week.

But it's really simple to understand, but it actually would help anybody going through infertility, putting it in a basic way, and then they'll have it for their children later on as well.

Yeah.

And I just love the graphics.

It's, everything is so easy To understand.

And it's, I don't even think it's just for children, so yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, actually it's funny that you say that.

So it is, you know, targeted as an IVF keepsake for children, so they kind of understand how, y- how they were created.

What happened.

Y- Yeah … right, exactly.

And so that was sort of the goal with it, but a lot of people have reached out and they've said, "I'm showing this to my family-" Yeah … "because they don't understand the IVF process," and this is helping them understand what's happening- What's going on … because it goes through everything from retrieval, ICSI, development, the, the choice of are we going to do a fresh transfer or are we going to freeze the embryo?

And then the- Yeah … ultimate transfer, whenever that might be.

Th- there's no, you know, timetable for it.

Yeah.

And then what happens after if it's successful is, you know, at the end, the, the baby.

That's

really a good idea.

I'm g- I'm gonna- Thank you … actually recommend that idea, 'cause a lot of… That's one of the struggles my girls have is the insensitive comments from, like- Mm-hmm

Aunt Betty or a cousin or the mother-in-law.

Yeah.

That they're trying to be supportive, but if you're not in the world, you just, it's just a different world, infertility, right?

Yeah.

So- Yeah … I like that.

Yeah.

And it would, it's not something like they're not gonna read the whole time and time, but that's something simple so people actually understand.

Yeah.

And a lot of people say- Right … " Oh, my, my babies were born, from IVF and surrogacy." And people are like, "Oh, you have genetically, engineered children." And it's not like that, and people really think if they don't know, they don't, that's what they assume, right?

So-

Yeah

… Crystal: that's a little tough one.

So I like, I'm gonna use your book as an example to, to show relatives or- Yeah

to show your mother-in-law.

Thank you.

And what's nice too about the book, and I did this on purpose, is there's no mom or dad.

There's, it could be written for, it's for anybody.

Anybody.

So it could be donor eggs, it could be donor sperm, it doesn't matter.

It could be a surrogate.

There's no… It's pretty- Yeah

generic, and so anybody, it applies to everybody.

The only person, the only time it wouldn't apply is egg freezing.

But other than that- Right … it should apply to everybody.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I love that.

Okay, so you brought up surrogacy.

And- Mm-hmm … I, as I just mentioned, I had a surrogate for my twins, and you have been a surrogate.

And you really are diving into this fertility world.

So tell us a little bit about that.

Why, why did you choose to be a gestational surrogate?

Yeah, it's a- thank you.

That's a great question.

So it's something that I've always just thought was really an admirable thing for somebody to do.

I know not everybody- Mm-hmm

can do it.

In fact, it's actually pretty hard to become a surrogate.

There's a lot- Mm … of criteria that needs to be filled.

But I always thought it was something really admirable, and that was even before, that was even before I became an embryologist.

I think if anybody knows Friends, we know Phoebe carried for-

Yeah.

her brother, right?

Exactly.

And I was, you know, I thought how, how amazing is that?

That's so cool.

You know?

Yeah.

How wonderful.

And, it's something that I'd always had in the back of my mind, and then I saw it a few times, at, in, just in my career.

And I just, I don't know, it warmed my heart just to see that these women were doing this, you know, for other people.

Yeah.

And, I do have a daughter, so she's five.

And we, after I had her, we decided that we, didn't want any more children of our, our own.

So, but I was still willing to help another family if I could.

So I said- Yeah … "You know, I'm just gonna apply to be a surrogate, and if I get accepted, we'll go from there.

But chances are I won't, because there'll be something wrong," you know, because they're very particular.

So, yeah, yeah.

They are.

But no, I, I got accepted and, I went through the whole process and, I found the most amazing couple ever that I was able to- Aw … carry for, and they're great.

Amazing.

We still keep in contact, all the time.

Oh, I love it.

And yeah, it was really wonderful.

Emotionally, I think I was the best person for it because, you know, our, our family was complete, so there wasn't a part of me that thought like, "Oh, I feel sad that they get to take- Yeah … the baby home." Like not, no, no part of me- Not a thing … ever felt like that.

I was sad- No … of course, to see them when they left but, Yeah, yeah … it was more, you know, sad that that part of the journey was over.

But, they're so wonderful, and just getting to be a part of h- watching how their baby has grown, and he's over a year now.

That's amazing.

Aw.

It's so great.

Yeah.

I, I really love it.

I had a couple of complication, physical complications with the pregnancy.

I had some preeclampsia and-

Oh my

… Jessica: a couple-- So I can't carry again.

I would- Again?

… in my heart I would.

Okay.

But it would just be too much of a risk now to-

No, no … for a couple of reasons.

Yeah.

They wouldn't let you do that again, no.

Yeah.

it's such a gift.

It's-

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was- Yeah … I loved that I could do it, really.

Yeah.

I know.

When I was reading all, all that you did and then- I'm like, "What? She was a surrogate as well?" I'm like…

I know.

So I- Well,

I,

it's a tough one for me because te- like, I don't want that to be part of my resume because it's not, you know, it's not something I'm doing- No

for my job.

But it actually is-

No

… Jessica: so related

to

my job- But it helps … that, yeah.

It is.

And you, you u- you understand, like, you go through the whole process then.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Right?

I remember seeing the embryo- Yeah … at the transfer, and I thought, "Oh, that's a nice embryo." You know?

I was grading it in my head.

And yeah, so.

What embryo did you… Yeah.

Yeah, did you get a pixie embryo they were putting?

No, I did not.

They, that, that was all above me.

But, yeah.

That's worked.

It all worked out.

Yeah.

But it was-

I love

it … a lab that I had worked in before, so I knew a couple of the people, which was great.

Oh,

then you…

Mm-hmm.

Oh my God, that, it, you know what?

It's such a gift.

It's such a gift.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I was, again, so happy that I could do it, and I give all surrogates so much credit.

It's,

I know.

Yeah.

You gotta be tough.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's good.

Yeah, it was great.

You gotta be tough.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You gotta be tough.

And the gift that they're giving, it's just incredible.

It's- Yeah … yeah.

I like, I, like I said, I wouldn't have my babies if, yeah.

No.

If they, if she wasn't there.

So it's- Yeah … it's really an amazing gift, for sure.

Looking ahead, what's on your, your plate that's already overflowing right now?

Well, I told you, we talked a little bit about one of my projects that I'd like to work on, but I took a little bit of a break from my Instagram for a little bit.

Just- … I had a lot of other things going on, just- Life … life, you know?

Life.

Yeah, exactly.

So I had to take a little break.

So I've just been working on trying to get more content there.

I'm kind of- Mm-hmm … working with the idea of doing in a fiction book, kind of related- Mm-hmm … to IVF and infertility.

But that will be way down the road.

Other

than that though, I'm just- I think that would be fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's something- Yeah … I would enjoy writing, but, we'll, we'll see how that goes.

And then- … just working in the lab that I work in and, that's about it right now, I think.

I don't have any big projects on the menu right now.

That's,

well, we're gonna talk and we'll probably fill

that plate-

Yeah … together.

Perfect.

One question I always ask is if you had to tell a couple what something that would really help their embryos, their egg quality, their sperm quality, their jour- journey, their transfer, what's like a piece of advice that you like to give that really makes sense?

I would say there are so many factors that go into calculating, if you will, your chances of success.

There isn't one thing that you can do or not do that's going to make or break your cycle.

But taking care of yourself, and, and that includes, you know, exercising, drinking water, maintaining a healthy diet, getting enough sleep.

Those things are- Yeah … all really important.

But there are the medical aspects as well, and some of it is out of your control.

So just know that no matter what happens, there isn't one thing that you could have done or could not have done that would have drastically changed your outcome.

Yeah.

That's, that's so important 'cause a lot of times people will be like, " I ate a piece of cheese," or- Right

"I went for sushi," or whatever- Yeah … it is, and they think that's why they miscarried or that's why their- Right … transfer failed or something like that.

No.

And

that's- There's so much out of our control that, Yeah … even, you know, we look at everything under the microscope, and we couldn't tell you why certain things happen, good or bad.

Sometimes things happen that are good, and sometimes they don't.

But regardless- Yeah … it's not one thing you could have done or, or not done, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And my last question.

If you could go back on the first day you became an embryologist, what would you tell Jessica 2018?

I would say just On my first day, I would say remember you're here to learn the biology, and you're here to learn the steps, but don't forget that there is a person or a couple behind every single embryo.

Because that's- Yeah … not something you learn in school.

That's something you learn- No … after years of talking to people and realizing there's someone on the other end of that, on the other side of that curtain who's waiting and, you know, you treat every- Yeah … single embryo, every single procedure, everything you do as if they were your own.

So with the ult- regardless, even if you're tired, even if it's been a long day.

I mean, everyone gets the same level of care.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for coming and chatting with me today, Jessica.

I am so excited.

I know I already wanna, like, jump on a Zoom call 'cause I think we have a lot of things in common 'cause we do really wanna change the fertility world.

So thank you so much.

You are an inspiration.

Like I said, you lit a fire under me with your resume.

I was like, "Oh my God-" Thank you.

"… this girl is doing this and this and this and this." And I just love it 'cause it's all to help everybody get-

Well, thank you … pregnant and have healthy-

And

thank you for all you do, too.

You do a lot to help.

Thank you.

So thank you.

Thank you.