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(E19) The workplace courage expert Sharon Amesu
Episode 19 • 13th May 2024 • Leaders with impact • Lee Griffith
00:00:00 00:48:38

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This episode is one about courage. The courage to show up as the leader you want to be. The courage to say the things that need to be said. Leaders in high performing teams, leaders with impact, have that courage - even if it is uncomfortable and messy and doesn’t always go to plan.

I’m delighted to speak with Sharon Amesu, an expert in building courage in the workplace. We talk about:

  • what workplace courage is
  • how a background in criminal justice led to a new career direction
  • everyday courage Vs heroic courage
  • not avoiding difficult conversations and articulating courage
  • how organisations can tackle bias and discrimination
  • leadership awareness and reflection
  • changing cultures
  • building inclusive and diverse boards, including the importance of the Chair
  • the inner work leaders need to do to embrace and make change happen
  • the need to change leadership development

Resources and helpful links

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

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Transcripts

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Today's episode is one about courage, the courage to

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show up as the leader you want to be courage to say the things

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that need to be said. Leaders in high performing teams leaders

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with impact have that courage, even if it is uncomfortable,

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messy and doesn't always good to plan. I'm Lee Griffith

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communication strategist, executive coach and all around

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champion of leaders who shun the old school stereotypes. I'm here

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to help you get clear on your strategy, implement some self

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leadership and connect with those who serve through your

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communications so that you can deliver improved organizational

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performance, engagement and reputation sign up to my

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newsletters to receive even more useful insights into how to be

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an impactful leader. You can also find out how I can support

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your organization to better connect with the people it

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serves. Visit Sundayskies.com To find out more.

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In today's episode, I'm delighted to speak with Sharon

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MSU. An expert in building courage in the workplace. We

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talk about how organizations can change culture, tackle bias,

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build inclusive and diverse boards, and the inner work

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leaders need to do to embrace and make change happen. It's one

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that will get you thinking for sure. Enjoy.

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So Sharon, thank you so much for joining us on the leaders with

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impact podcast, we're delighted to have you here today. You're a

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workplace courage consultant, tell me what that entails. So

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what we understand from what I understand from years of working

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with organizations, and thinking about the various thought

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leaders, both past and present, to reflect on what it takes for

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us to be able to get the best out of our people in our

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organizations, for people to be able to articulate their views

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for them to be innovative, for them to be high performing, be

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the best that they can be, and do the best that they can is

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that it requires them to be able to raise their hands above the

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parapet, and almost at times risk getting things wrong. And

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the only way that we're able to do that, individually and

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collectively, is when we're willing to be courageous, when

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we're willing to step outside of those zones of comfort, and take

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the risks. And say even if I'm wrong, I'll still try. It's

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those who will have the attitude, the mindset to go

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again, and not allow fear of rejection, fear of ridicule, to

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determine whether or not they'll take the chance. And what

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underpins all of that, therefore, is courage. It's me,

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Angelou, who said that people forget what you say they'll

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forget what you do, or they'll never forget how you made them

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feel. And she also said that courage is the greatest of all

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of the virtues that you can't practice any of the other

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virtues, whatever they might be, you're not able to practice any

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of them. If you don't have courage, they're willing to take

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the risk. And in a time where what we need now more than ever

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is, is great innovation we want we need people who are willing

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to wrestle with the knotty, challenging issues that every

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organization is facing, we have to face into what's often

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described as VUCA, which is volatility and uncertainty,

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complexity and ambiguity, when we don't have the stable ground

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that we used to be able to stand on the predictability of the

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business landscape of the workplace futures and all of

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those things that helped us just to be able to perhaps walk with

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greater confidence, we have to find something a resolution

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within us that enables us to step into the unknown. And for

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me, it's courage. And that's courage in relation to a

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conversation that we have, are we willing to lean into those

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areas that can be taxing and polarizing? Are we willing to

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bring challenge where we see things are not quite going

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right, that there's a direction of travel that's not conducive

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to our growth? Or are we willing to face opposition and where

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there may be dissents to our view still hold our own? So

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workplace courage is all about that. How do we create cultures

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within our organization that are underpinned by courage where

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people are able to thrive, prosper, engage and really

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advanced personally and professionally? There's so much

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there that I want to unpack. How did you get to the point that

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you're at where that's your focus, because you've had quite

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an interesting career. It came largely from personal

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experience, as is often the case with these things need So as

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you've mentioned, my career started in law. But before that,

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what drew me into law in the first place was I grew up during

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the 1970s

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His 1980's. And during that time, in the UK, there was a lot

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of civil unrest, a lot of communities in particular, the

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black community were facing marginalization exclusion, they

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were facing significant disadvantage, discrimination.

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And what I witnessed, which has never left me was the resolve

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among those who are leaders without titles in the

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communities rising up and bring together their collective voice

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in the face of opposition, of obstruction, and obstacles, to

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speak truth to power, irrespective of consequence,

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because they had some grounded deep within them as to what was

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right and what was fair and what was just. And I grew up under

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that, in particular, my dad was a community activist, a social

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convener, and he was a prominent figure in my life and observing

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him, and seeing him speak to those who are leading in the

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education system and bring challenge to the way that in

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particular black boys were being treated in the education system

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back in the 1970s, and 80s. And in fact, in reality, he, it

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still persists today. But I saw courage. I saw individuals like

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him, and there were others alongside him, who had the sense

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of assuredness about them, that even though there were Goliath

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that they were facing, they had a sense of knowing who they are,

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that they were willing to do what needed to be done. Even if

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there was a cost to them. It was this ability to step over the

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inevitable fear, whatever that might have been reputation, and

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financially, whatever it might have been, they were willing to

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step over that to do the right thing and do what needed to be

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done. It was that that awareness, that early awareness,

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that really brought me into the legal sector where of course,

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courage is needed in practice extensively, because you'll be

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facing opponents who might be more senior to you. Certainly my

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experience was as a black woman in the profession being a

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minority on at least two fronts in terms of gender and race. And

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so having the ability to tackle stuff like impostor syndrome,

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and the fear of using your voice in a way as an advocate, which

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may attract some ridicule in the courtroom, or in the Rubin room,

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or whatever it might be, to be able to stand and hold your own,

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I had to draw on something. And what I often found myself

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drawing on in order to ground myself encouraged with those

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stories that I've just relayed to you looking back at those,

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those for me, matriarchs and patriarchs who are able to stand

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and hold their own, and courage. Therefore, I began through my

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own evolution. But then, as I began to work with organizations

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and coach leaders, who would often be leaders without

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authority, Lee, so they'd have a title, but no one would be

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listening to them, because then they lacked a sense of

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credibility and gravitas. Because they lacked courage.

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Oftentimes, they weren't willing to hold the courageous

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conversations, they weren't willing to manage performance,

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perhaps or were a member of staff was underperforming, and

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it was having an impact and other people on the team, the

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manager or leader was not willing to have the necessary

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conversation because they feared the the inputs and the impact of

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that. So I just began to notice and see these threads emerge and

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ask myself the question What does underpin high performance

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cultures or people being able to thrive? What does make for a

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good lead? What are the characteristics? What are the

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traits and all roads lead to courage? It's as though when we

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look at integrity. So if we were to ask for a list of

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characteristics of any good leader, we would point to no

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doubt, despite sometimes what we see in modern society of

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leadership would still point to fundamentally things like

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honesty, right, would point to integrity,

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would point to accountability. All of these whatever

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characteristical trait we would describe would then go on by

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extension to ask ourselves, then how do we do that? How do they

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manifest that? And at the heart of that each and every one of

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those will be courage. As Mayor Angelou says, It takes courage

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to be honest, because it may well be that you'll expose

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yourself to a weakness or vulnerability. It takes courage

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to be have integrity, because it may well be that you're

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wrestling with two opposing views. And in fact, behind the

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scenes as it were, no, Amin know the truth of something. But it

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takes courage to do the right thing to it takes courage to be

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transparent, and really be willing to hold your hands open

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and say here are here's the reality of what's going on.

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Because always there is the risk of the well, is this going to be

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damaging of my reputation? Is this going to impact us

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financially? Is this going to impact my future career, etc,

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those will all be considerations that every single leader will

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have a no doubt having a daily basis. But what I see I've

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witnessed it personally, professionally. And I see it now

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through my work is the leaders who are willing to be and I call

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it competent courage. It's something I've really gleaned

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from a brilliant author who wrote a book called choosing

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courage, and essentially says courage is not just this sense

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of speaking at will what comes to mind without any filter, and

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just doing whatever I want, without any consideration of how

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it impacts other people far from it. Courage is considered true

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courage is considered. It is about measuring, evaluating,

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reflecting on the risk, and then having regard to that, then

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taking action. Now, of course, that takes that's a contrast to

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those immediate acts of heroic courage, right? Where you've got

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people, someone who will see a child in the street, and a car

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is about to go toward them, and then they quickly run over and

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they lift them off and save the day. All right, so that's not

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there's not much analysis going on there, if any, it's

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instinctive, but the reality is Lee, that 98.8% of the acts of

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courage that take place are not those heroic acts. It's the

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everyday acts of being true to yourself, of speaking truth, to

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power, of being truly authentic, in how you show up at work.

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Those are daily acts, and those acts of considered competent

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courage are the ones that require us to have pause,

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reflect and really think about, are we going to step over that

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that line of fear? And do what needs to be done and make the

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decision that needs to be made? Yeah, there's so much synergy

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with the leaders I work with, because similarly, we're looking

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at how do they bring their selves, their full selves into

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an organization and perhaps fight against those stereotypes

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and the old school way of leadership that still prevail in

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a lot of organizations and still prevail, particularly I work

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with with public sector, and you know, we hear all sorts coming

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out of some of those organizations. And we look at

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how they can communicate and connect and take people with

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them. But it means for them to do that they've got to build an

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earn trust, which comes from that point that you're saying

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the courage to do things differently and to do things

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that feel correct and authentic to them? Absolutely. Absolutely.

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And that's the daily challenge, isn't it? Of Yeah, any, any

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leader who is worth their salt, they will, who is leading

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essentially, they will face daily challenges that they are

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confronted with, which draws on their ability to stand and do

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the right thing. And those roads, that the opportunities

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for us to do the wrong thing, avails itself to everyone

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throughout the day. And it takes courage to do the right thing.

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Yeah, yeah, completely. So today, we absolutely get to

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explore all of this in more detail, and also maybe help get

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some practical things that people who are listening can

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take forward. And I want to explore a bit around the topic

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of diversity in senior leadership as well. And this

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thought around tackling bias and discrimination in the workplace,

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because I know that's something that you're really passionate

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about as well. And I suppose I want to start from the point of

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acknowledging that it can be a really difficult subject for

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people to raise and talk about, they might feel uncomfortable or

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scared about saying or doing the wrong thing. And that backlash

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that comes when when they do and it doesn't necessarily need to

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be just about diversity issues. You know, the thing you're

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talking about courage, it could be anything that they're trying

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to challenge the status quo, is that fear of backlash and saying

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and doing the wrong thing. And I suppose I come from a point of,

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we need to have messy conversations and I completely

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acknowledge probably in the space of this, this conversation

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that you and I have in that I'm going to not word things very

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well or be a bit clumsy in my approach, but I'm

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kind of happen, happy to, you know, be put back in and

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corrected or, you know, at least I'm having that conversation.

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And I think we've that courage breeds comfortableness in in

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people to feel that they can say something without fear of what

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might happen as a result. So what's your advice, I suppose to

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leaders who perhaps are avoiding the difficult topics, whatever

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they might be, I always begin with the basic understanding of

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human behavior. And sometimes in these conversations, Lee, we

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lose sight of the fact that there is a fundamental humanity

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in me, and there's one in you. And that then helps us to

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appreciate what are the types of things that helps us to build

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good relationships with anyone else in our life?

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Well, one, there is a sense of patience, there is interest,

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genuine interest, there's genuine care. And we are able

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individually to discern when someone's genuinely interested

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in us when they genuinely care. We have an appreciation and

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awareness of whether is good intention toward us. Why does

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that matter? Because where those are in existence, that the sense

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that someone cares for me, that they have good intentions toward

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me, that they that between us we have that they listen, and then

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there is empathy between us, then when that person gets

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things wrong, which inevitably, they will, because back to that

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humanity point, there are none among us who are perfect, there

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is a certain level of grace, and there is a certain level of

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leeway, that just exists in the relationship that enables us to

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be able to accommodate each other's foibles and failings.

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When I look at my own personal relationships, my husband, my

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children, we say things to each other, and not intentionally,

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but sometimes there may be a comment mark, which may be

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slightly off, there is a relationship between us, which

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means that they're able to come back to me say I didn't actually

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like that statement. Like that comment, or vice versa. I know

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you didn't intend that. But here's how it impacted me. What

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it means is because there is this safety that we have created

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between us, I have greater confidence that I'm able to

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speak and know that if I'm saying something that might

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cause offence, there is sufficient mileage between us

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relationship capital between us that I can trust that they'll

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come and speak to me and they'll raise that issue, and vice

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versa. And for the large part that's not articulated that

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there's no no long conversation, what is their relationship

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capital between us, etc. But we essentially know through the

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time that we built relationship, we spent time with each other,

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we have conversations, we get to know each other's triggers, etc.

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We have built our communication to the point where there is

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safety, safety for candor, and vulnerability and honesty. We've

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created the conditions for that. So my first point that I would

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say to leaders is build good relationships around you, with

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people that you need to have honest conversations with so

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often, there is this sense that we we can just that the sense of

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impairment and fear is most definitely understood Lee, I get

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that, in particular in a time of canceled culture.

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And I think sometimes the volatility in our public sphere

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can be so divisive, it means that people fall into paralysis

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and don't say anything. If in doubt, I would say it's best not

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to oftentimes, especially were, in particular in social media as

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opposed to general relationships, because social

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media is just not the platform to be outing views that you are

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either not clear will be polarizing or have the potential

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to be polarizing. And I always advise leaders to be careful

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about how they articulate their courage in those sorts of

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platforms. But coming into the workplace, building

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relationships with your colleagues, those colleagues who

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are different, diverse to you in whatever form whether it be the

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protected characteristics of the equalities act in the UK, or the

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plethora of other forms of diversity. Find

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Finding out about different people's experiences,

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understanding their world, taking the time to be genuinely,

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humbly curious, having good intentions in that all of those

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create the conditions for people to be able to explore, and have

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candid, honest, courageous conversations.

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When it comes to the issue, for example of bias, as you just

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referenced, that that is something that exists in all of

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us. It's a part of, of the human condition, and cognition. So

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it's who we are. And it's by necessity, all right, there's

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lots of research, which points to the fact that having bias

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helps us to be able to make decisions more quickly. So we're

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not having to process the millions of pieces of data that

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we're receiving constantly, it helps us to have those shortcuts

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to decision making. So they're necessary. What becomes

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problematic is when those quick unconsidered subconscious

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decisions, as it were started to be detrimental to other groups,

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whatever those groups might be. And that's where we need to

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really question that, we have to engage in conversations around

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this. Because if we don't, the situation and problem does not

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go away, it simply becomes more embedded. And the paralysis that

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I often see around this, which is, it's too scary to talk

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about, I don't know if I'm going to get it wrong, I don't know if

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I'm going to cause offence leads people to and therefore I'm not

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going to talk about it. Meanwhile, this thing is these

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differences, these contentions, these issues, the data around

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discrimination, harassment, and so on, they still sit there not

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being dealt with. And also frustration begins to emerge for

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those disenfranchised and marginalized groups whose issues

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are not being addressed. So it doesn't go away. And therefore,

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the question is, how do we deal with it? Not should we deal with

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it. And it starts with having really good relationships,

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building strong relationships, communicating, you'd appreciate

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that league, communicating good intention, being consistent in

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that. And then over time, that builds trust, how you're able to

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have that open dialogue? Yeah. You touched on the thing around

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everyone having bias and I actually I interviewed Sharon

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Carter, who's the Chief Executive of hexagon housing for

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a previous episode of the podcast, and we had this same

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conversation around everyone has had some form of bias. And

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actually, the key is you bringing that awareness to

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yourself around how that's influencing your behaviors and

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your decision making. I know that's something that you work

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with organizations on a day to day basis. So how do leaders

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become more attuned, I suppose, to those biases that might be at

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play. There's a really interesting book that I came

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across recently in the title is called Slow looking, the

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author's name escapes me what it's called Slow looking. And it

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really, the author invites us to treat our lives and our

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relationships and our world, like it would like we're in an

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exhibition.

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And we walk through, and when we go into an exhibition, or a

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museum, or whatever it might be, we pay close attention we

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observe, we start to notice, because we've slowed down our

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pace, or we've taken the time to pay attention, we start to zoom

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in to things that we would otherwise miss. So if you can

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imagine the contrast between going to an art exhibition, and

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alternatively, simply rushing through to catch a tube, train,

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or capture training, you're just rushing the images at the train

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station, but you're you're getting your train, you're

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you're not really paying attention to anything but

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heading with a beeline right to your train, there's a different

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you're taking the time you're taking pause. I would say that

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the same applies really to how we become aware of our biases,

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we start to pay attention. We start to notice how we made

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decisions and ask ourselves questions about how we've made

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those decisions, such as would I have made the decision like this

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if the person had different characteristics? So for example,

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if I'm making a decision about a male colleague, when I made the

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decision if it was a female colleagues, same decision, or if

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it's a young person, would I have made the decision, same

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decision if it was an older person, or if it's a white

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colleague, would I have made the same decision if

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It was a colleague of a different ethnicity or race.

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Yes. So start asking ourselves those questions. Another really

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useful approach to this is to surround ourselves with other

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views or the diverse perspective, because so often

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what we can do is we make decisions on our own in

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isolation. We are almost like a confirmation bias we are, we're

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clear that we are right, because all of the evidence in our heads

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points the fact that we are. So we tend to believe ourselves.

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And when we've made a decision, we believe it's right. And

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that's why also I for example, value, and this is why I suspect

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we have when we're recruiting, we'll have a panel why, because

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simply having the perspective of one person making the decision

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about who should be recruited in an organization where, for

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example, it's a larger organization, then there is a

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sense of bringing a range of perspectives around the table

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that that we can discuss, and we can mull, and we can reason

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together to see what is out, are we seeing the same thing?

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Are there certain traits that I've missed that you have, you

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have seen, et cetera. So there is sort of a proverb which says

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that there is wisdom in the Council of many. And so sense

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checking gauging with others, here is what I'm thinking of

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doing. What do you think of that, and, and not as well,

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simply having that group be made of people who are like you,

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because otherwise, to some degree, whilst there's always

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many forms of diversity, the danger is Lee, that you're

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simply working within asking the opinion of people who think like

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you who have a shared background. And that diversity

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of perspective in reaching your decisions is clearly impaired.

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So having people who do have different viewpoints to your own

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different worldviews even to your own, and probing with them.

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And then in a more practical level, I, I believe that we as

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leaders, there's two more things. One is, I believe in the

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power of journaling, at least it links to the first point I was

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making, and that through the power of journaling, you're able

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to pay attention to patterns. So what are you seeing about

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choices that you've made?

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About behaviors? What are you noticing through feedback? Yes.

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So I believe that good leaders elicit feedback and do so

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routinely. They ask people, What how are you experiencing my

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leadership, my decision making the approaches that I'm taking,

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they create an open, confidential forum, for there to

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be that sharing in and then journaling? I believe, taking

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the time to really reflect on what am I hearing? What patterns

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Am I seeing, and taking the tap the time to respond to that. And

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then finally, a really practical thing is, there's something

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called the MIT test. The MIT test is something that's been

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used millions of times. And what it does is it's Americanized. So

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it's important for listeners to be aware that there is that lens

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to it. It's not necessarily an impairment in and of itself,

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it's that there will be aspects of it that won't be relevant,

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for example, to audiences in the UK or audiences in Europe,

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that's really something to be aware of. But there is great

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utility around it. Because what it essentially does, is it gets

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us to start thinking, Lee about the narratives and the stories

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that we have been exposed to that influence us. In other

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words, it acknowledges and it helps us to acknowledge that we

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are all socialized, there are none of us who are a void of the

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impact of our environment of our upbringing. We are all shaped by

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the views that we've been exposed to when we were growing

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up. We've all been shaped we all continue to be shaped by the

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media, that we can assume that by the imagery by the news

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that's around us. We're all influenced and shaped by that.

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And so what the those tests invites us to do is ask

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ourselves the question, so if this image flashes up, what's

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our immediate instinctive response to that?

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What's the word that we use? If we see a young black person who

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is wearing certain attire? Do we assume that they are involved in

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some type of illegal activity? What what comes up for us? And

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then through this process of the test, you're able to see where

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perhaps your biases sit. Now it can mean many confronting and

Unknown:

challenging, but But what it does is I believe, is

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important to see it without judgment, just observe it slow

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looking, just observe what's coming, what what's emerged from

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it, and ask ourselves a question, what is it telling me?

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And how we got here? Now, part of that story narrative might be

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what did we hear about race when we were growing up? When we hear

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about people from other countries? What do we hear about

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migrants? And when we look at that, when we think about what

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is that narrative, something that's influencing now, how I

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perceive certain people from different demographics? And by

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extension, if, if it's sitting there somewhere beneath the

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surface? How do I become mindful? So that I don't allow

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it to impair how I engage with those people? Because so often,

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most of us, I believe, ly believe ourselves to be good

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people. There is no one who would consciously say yes, I am

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racist, and I am proud, I am sexist, and I am proud, I am

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ageist and I am proud, there are point naught naught percent of

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the population would consciously willfully and deliberately say,

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I have described I behave in a discriminatory way toward a

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certain group of people. And I do so unapologetically, most

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people believe themselves to be good people. All right. So if we

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have that as a fundamental premise is the hypothesis. And

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then we weigh that up against Well, what are the results in

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wider society? I'm talking about in the West principally, but if

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we if we weigh that up against the results and outcomes for

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various demographics. So if we look at the outcomes for women

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in the workplace, and the gender pay gap, for example, well,

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would you would the majority of men say, Yes, I think we should

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pay women less than men. No, there would never be that

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conscious decision. And that's having regard to all of this,

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this sort of historic structural issues. But ultimately, we are

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at a point in our history, where women for the most part are

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still underpaid compared to their male counterparts. It was

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just recently as having a conversation with my daughter

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about those disparities within the legal sector, and they are

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significant, they are stopped. And over time, cumulatively,

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they build up to a picture of huge disadvantage that impacts

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your retirement, it impacts your pension, etc, you can your daily

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living, yes. So having a conscious decision that we

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intention, rather, that we will check our biases, because all of

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us, fall victim to them,

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in some form or other, and being intentional by having this slow

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looking, observing, looking at our patterns, doing journaling,

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some reflection, asking for feedback from those around us as

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to how they're experiencing our behaviors, and also surrounding

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ourselves with people who will think differently to us to help

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us really reflect on our decision making all of those

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things, I believe how to mitigate the risk of negative

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bias in our decision making. Yeah, thank you. And I suppose

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linked to that, I know you do a lot of work with boards around

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building an inclusive board, and I suppose I'm interested in what

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does that look and feel like to someone who is external to that

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board? And what would they be noticing for a board who is

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truly embracing inclusivity? A good board always has a good

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chair.

Unknown:

It starts there. It starts with any board that I've sat on.

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There has been a good board has always had a good chair and

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chair who has been mindful that diversity and inclusion is

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important that their intention about one eliciting people's

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views and also creating the space for those views to be

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heard.

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And they aren't they recognize that they are not the person who

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has all of the answers nor has to have all of the answers. They

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lean on the the knowledge in the group to progress the

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organization. If you look at any data point right now, Lee,

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you'll see that representation at board level is very poor in

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terms of diversity. It is very poor. In fact, it that stubborn

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data remains quite stark and shocking. So in terms of

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diversity and board representation, that is not

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there. What I'm what I'm speaking then to more broadly is

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acknowledgement on those books.

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odds of that gap and the intention to close it. And in

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the meantime, as they journey toward that are intentional

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about creating safe spaces, where board members are able to

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share their viewpoints, have open dialogue, you'll see

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evidence of active listening, taking the time to genuinely

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listen. And there is an intention for those boards to

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develop themselves. They understand the skills that they

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have. And they are intention about filling the gaps. That for

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me, is the evidence of seeing really good boards work well,

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having regard to the caveat that, that there could always be

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better whether it's greater diversity of experience and

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thought, how do organizations shift from, I suppose those

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tokenistic gestures that we often say? And they might say

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the right things, but actually, how do they shift that to take

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in the right types of actions, because you've you've referenced

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yourself the fact that, you know, change is taken a long

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time isn't really changing. And I've, you've seen reports in

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lots of different industries where they've, you know, 2030

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years, things were recommended, and they're still not really

Unknown:

being executed there. Was those the report from the McPherson

Unknown:

report, wasn't it? How, however many years on from from that,

Unknown:

being one example. And you we get these flurries of activity

Unknown:

where people feel they should be saying something, and then it

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will just goes quiet. So how did organizations do that shift?

Unknown:

I believe that it's three parts to it. I describe it as

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commitment, compassion, and accountability. So if you can

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imagine, first of all commitment being on a vertical axes, and

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compassion being on a horizontal axes, where you have low levels

Unknown:

of commitment, and low levels of compassion, you have apathy and

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indifference.

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Where you have high levels of compassion, but low levels of

Unknown:

commitment, you've got tokenism. What does that look like? Oh,

Unknown:

those poor people, they're treated so unfairly. That is

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that's so discriminatory, and so unfair. But when it comes to

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actually doing something about it, there is nothing, there is

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no action, there is no follow through. So that's compassion,

Unknown:

you're moved, you're saddened by it, you're not doing anything

Unknown:

about it. If you go on the high levels of commitment, low levels

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of compassion, there you have compliance. So I will do what

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needs to be done. Because regulation and the law requires

Unknown:

me to do so I don't really care how it impacts people's lives.

Unknown:

Here is what the law requires me to do. And you know, there may

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be some penalties for me, if I don't do it, ultimately, what

Unknown:

happens there, Lee is that where those regulations perhaps are no

Unknown:

longer in place, then you won't do it. Because there's no real

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tug on your heart. There's no sense of moral obligation to do

Unknown:

the right thing. It's the legal obligation to do the right

Unknown:

thing. But the sweet spot, and to your point around how you

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ensure the organization shift from tokenism to meaningful

Unknown:

action is where you have high levels of commitment, you have

Unknown:

high levels of compassion, and you have accountability. They

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sit in that top box. Because what that says is, I am moved by

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this issue. I will do the work because it's the right thing to

Unknown:

do. And I'll be measuring my results to make sure that we are

Unknown:

doing what we will still will do. Yeah, I'm very visual. So

Unknown:

I've already got this, the chart in my head is you took that

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free, I think that's really helpful. Yeah, anyone can sit

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there and go, Where do I think me? Where do I sit? And where

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does my organization says I think that's really helpful. I

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suppose one of the things that triggered that thought, as you

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were talking is where the burden of change lies because I think

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there's this almost this push and pull of wanting to create

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safe spaces for those who perhaps feel minoritized or are

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minoritized and organizations hand over responsibility to

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those to make the change happen. And then that becomes a

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completely get really exhausting on them. The board think tick,

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we've done our duty, you know, we've done the compliance bit

Unknown:

and we've handed it over. So how did leaders start to balance

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that empowering people with and making them feel

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and that they are being heard and listened to, and all of that

Unknown:

stuff with the fact that they've got to take the personal

Unknown:

responsibility for making change happen. So the place where it

Unknown:

doesn't start is where our start, it doesn't rest solely

Unknown:

with HR.

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And so often what happens is when it comes to this work, in

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particular, of driving, this agenda of diversity, and

Unknown:

inclusion is often just allocated to HR, HR will sort it

Unknown:

out, and all will be well. And that is one unfair and HR is too

Unknown:

unrealistic. And three is just setting an organization up for

Unknown:

failure. What we are talking about here is culture change,

Unknown:

changing hearts and minds and mindsets. Well, how do we do

Unknown:

that? It starts first of all, with role modeling, doesn't it?

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That you cannot do this work of setting the tone and culture of

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an organization, without the leaders in the organization role

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modeling, very clearly, transparently, honestly, what it

Unknown:

looks like, by doing it and being it themselves, and also

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being honest, candid, and vulnerable when they get things

Unknown:

wrong. So role modeling, communication across the

Unknown:

organization is key, you'd Of course, appreciate this name,

Unknown:

what is the direction of travel, and communicating that clearly

Unknown:

across the organization everywhere in the organization

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that there be no dark corner that's obscured from this

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message that this is who we are. And it comes through every form

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of connection, communication, it comes through in your

Unknown:

onboarding. So when you're recruiting people, this is who

Unknown:

we are, this is the coach that we're seeking to create, it

Unknown:

comes through in your performance reviews. So to what

Unknown:

extent have you engaged with this particular type of

Unknown:

attribute in your work? It's almost as though because you're

Unknown:

by design, wanting to ensure this becomes embedded it across

Unknown:

everything in unmissable and you ensure that it's threaded

Unknown:

through everything. So role modeling, communication, and

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some of that I feel from experience, having witnessed it

Unknown:

really take root in other organizations is this idea of

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the champion or the ambassador. So having those people in your

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organization who are specifically tooled and equipped

Unknown:

to be the ambassadors, the voice, the champions of the

Unknown:

agenda, they're the people who, who will continue to actively

Unknown:

encourage other people to be participants to engage to be

Unknown:

proactive and appreciate the value of this empowering them

Unknown:

starts to empower others. So one thing that you can't do is drive

Unknown:

even leaders powerful command, control leaders are not able to

Unknown:

drive culture change on their own, that needs to be something

Unknown:

that is cascaded and having those voices, what in your

Unknown:

senior leadership team in your senior management team. And then

Unknown:

as that goes further down, really having those champions

Unknown:

that will highlight the vision, and draw people into that, as

Unknown:

you go deeper into the organization, communicate those

Unknown:

messages that you're seeking to communicate, have the same

Unknown:

passion and fervor that you have, as a leader, those things

Unknown:

are really impactful in ensuring that this doesn't just become

Unknown:

one department issue, that this is actually something that all

Unknown:

of us need to embrace actively.

Unknown:

And do you think that that's the same approach and we briefly

Unknown:

touched on the fact that there perhaps isn't great diversity at

Unknown:

board level and when you do get someone who is representative of

Unknown:

minoritized group at board they possibly have got this dual

Unknown:

thing of of having to tackle head on bias and discrimination

Unknown:

that they're facing because of this the situation that they're

Unknown:

in whilst also being that role model for others in and outside

Unknown:

the organization? Is the approach the same for that

Unknown:

because I'm suppose I'm conscious of the burden and then

Unknown:

being pigeon holed as the poster person for whatever that issue

Unknown:

might be, which I suppose belittles their offer as a

Unknown:

leader at that my senior level. Yeah, there is a danger there.

Unknown:

There is that risk that you become the person the go to

Unknown:

person but what we know is sort of the history of of a movement

Unknown:

there's a great video that I watched of a of a movement and

Unknown:

it was an individual who was moving and somehow others

Unknown:

started watching him and they started moving in there just

Unknown:

became this dance in this park of of these people just starting

Unknown:

this movement, this gathering of of dancers in a park it was

Unknown:

quite random

Unknown:

And that's the, that's the hallmark of a really good

Unknown:

movement. It's the empowering of the many. It starts with the

Unknown:

one, it cascades to the next and the next and the next and the

Unknown:

next. And when you're creating change, you're clear in the way

Unknown:

in which you communicate, and you hold the space. And you

Unknown:

encourage others people to be participants, that you are not

Unknown:

the only solution to this by any stretch, that we are all coming

Unknown:

in it together. And you start to cascade that knowledge and

Unknown:

empower the next to be the beacon and the voice. So we get

Unknown:

into the end of our time together, I want to touch

Unknown:

briefly on the non traditional leadership development, because

Unknown:

that's something that I'm interested in. And I don't think

Unknown:

that senior leaders are particularly well supported in

Unknown:

that transition from when they're being in their

Unknown:

specialist role to this organizational generalist, and

Unknown:

all the broader skills that they're expected to bring into

Unknown:

that most senior role. How do you think leadership development

Unknown:

needs to change to reflect maybe the issues that you and I've

Unknown:

been talking about today, the leadership, development needs to

Unknown:

change by first of all acknowledging that it needs to

Unknown:

change.

Unknown:

So if the expectation is that we can do as we're doing, to

Unknown:

respond to the future of of the world of business of the

Unknown:

workplace of the world, as we are, we will become irrelevant.

Unknown:

Actually, leaders who recognize that there needs to be any

Unknown:

evolution to be relevant are the ones actually who are best

Unknown:

placed to respond to that. And then to understand what are

Unknown:

people saying that they need from us? Because leadership is

Unknown:

largely about how do we get the best out of people, so that they

Unknown:

can be bought into our vision and to perform? That's really

Unknown:

what leadership is about? Well, how do we get the best out of

Unknown:

people, it's about understanding from them, what gets the best

Unknown:

out of them, that making assumptions. And we know that

Unknown:

we're aware of when we're appreciative of situational

Unknown:

leadership. But in the main, what we understand now more than

Unknown:

ever, is that people want to be consulted, they want to have a

Unknown:

voice, they're feeling much more empowered, aren't they? So

Unknown:

leadership needs to respond to that it needs to be much more

Unknown:

distributed, it needs to be much more collaborative and

Unknown:

inclusive, and the leaders who get that they understand that we

Unknown:

need to change we do need to evolve, and then listening to

Unknown:

their people as to how best to become who the leader that they

Unknown:

need to be in the moment that we're in those the ones who will

Unknown:

be most impactful in the future. Perfect. My final question, and

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it's a quickie. What's the one piece of advice you'd give every

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chief exec or senior leader listening to this episode? I

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would encourage every leader to be strong and courageous.

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Perfect. No more needs to be said. Thank you so much for your

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time today. I literally could talk all day about this as so

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many other questions, but I'm sure I'm sure you've got other

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things you need to be doing. So thank you for speaking with me.

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If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review on Apple

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podcasts. And let me know what you thought on LinkedIn. You can

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find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the next episode in

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two weeks time. So in the meantime, sign up to my

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newsletter at Sundayskies.com for monthly insights on how else

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you can lead with impact. Until next time!

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