Our career path can lead us down many different roads and can often lead us right back to where we started. The important thing is that you follow what you feel is right for you at the moment. My guest on today’s episode, Tatum Moser, is a personal friend of mine who shares her journey in education and starting a new career path that eventually led her to start her own ed-tech business, Mindly Games. 

After having the feeling of burnout, Tatum took the leap into a new career. And while she learned that her teaching skills were vital in other jobs, she also learned her life needed to be around teachers and kids. So why not combine the two? Her new ed tech business, Mindly Games, lets her tap into her creativity while also keeping her connected to education. Hear how Tatum’s journey and advice can help you persevere toward the career you desperately desire.

For all links and resources mentioned in this episode, head to the show notes: https://www.educatorforever.com/episode50

Watch our free on-demand workshop to learn more about flexible work opportunities beyond the classroom: https://www.educatorforever.com/workshop

Take our free quiz to discover your next career step: https://www.educatorforever.com/quiz

Follow us on Instagram @educatorforever.

Lily

As the co founder and CEO of Mindly Games, Tatum Moser is on a mission to make math practice fun for kids. With her talented team, she's creating engaging games that inspire young learners to develop their math skills in a fun and exciting way.

Lily

Tatum has a wealth of experience in the EdTech industry, having served as an education consultant, startup advisor and VP of content at Education.com. However, she is particularly proud of her time spent teaching kindergarten and first grade in the Bay Area, where she developed a passion for helping children discover the joy of learning.

Lily

Hello, Tatum, so glad to have you on the podcast.

Tatum

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Lily

Yay. Well, I would love for you to start by telling us about your journey as an educator.

Tatum

My journey as an educator, the kind of rocky start actually. Yeah, when I was in the program for my credential, I had actually like stage fright with kids.

Lily

Just saying. Tell us about it.

Tatum

I actually from the very beginning was like, oh my god, can I do this, you know, like, and I just would have a really hard time getting up in front of kids. And the first part of the journey was me like figuring that out. Right?

Tatum

Because like I did, I had stage fright, like, and I have that, like, this is like a lifelong issue that I faced, like, my mom always wanted me to be a singer and I love singing that, like I would get up on stage and like, freak out, you know, like, and I just like, would give me tummy ache.

Tatum

And I have this like really hard experience, actually, you know, at the very beginning of my teaching career, or the teaching program, where as masters, she was really hard on me, you know, and she would like say stuff like you're losing. So Bella came to observe me, that was my advisor, you know, Bella too, and she just like kind of took like, like a really empathetic view.

Tatum

You know, and it was like, You need to be with somebody really supportive. You know, it's like, I have some good ideas, you know, for who would be and it was actually both you and Nancy King. So she very strategically put me with you and with Nancy King. And then I was able to, like, be a teacher, I think.

Lily

She strategically put us together.

Tatum

Yeah, cause she saw what the first placement did, you know, like, because actually, like, I was already kind of, like, probably in a uh oh state, you know, in terms of like, my confidence. But that was, that was the beginning of my teaching career. And it like really helped me to, like, figure out how to how to make it through some hard stuff. And like, especially the times when you're like questioning yourself, like crap, can I do this?

Tatum

You know, so I think that's like, the very first lesson I learned as a teacher was probably the one that like, I have to keep reminding myself of forever. Like, I can do this, I can figure this out, you know, or I can find the people, you know, and advocate for myself to get with the people that will help me to figure this out.

Lily

Yes, that's so interesting, like, just the environment piece, too. I get that too like, even doing the same exact job in different environments. Like, it makes all the difference. So it's like sometimes it's not the job, it's the environment teaching or doing something else.

Tatum

No, totally. And yet, that was, I mean, like, that's the next part, right? Which is that I got that really, like, I was so lucky to get that placement in Berkeley, like my first year teaching, but like to have come from your classroom where I did like the end of my my student teaching, and then to go into the teaching environment where it was, like, when I was with you, everything was so collaborative, and like, just, you know, so supportive.

Tatum

And in this new environment, it was a very, totally different world with regards to like how teachers interacted, like, it wasn't more of like a people collaborating, it was like people like hiding, like, Don't steal my ideas. And that was, that was a great experience too at the end of it, you know, because I was like, okay, like, I need to pay attention to what type of environment I put myself in.

Tatum

You know, yeah, and then of course, I got to be with you. And then I got to take over I was I mean, all of that was also lucky, right? Like the beginning was rocky the beginning has totally rocky for me with teaching and like then I got to Knox and like, had you and that was when I felt like my teaching career really started. You know, like, I got to benefit from being with you twice, which was amazing.

Tatum

Like, because before you left, I got to sit and watch you teach again. So like, I got like this double master teacher experience. And you taught me how to be like, calm the chaos. No, and like that. was just like even even now when I go into classrooms I'm like, like I still invoke you. I still say things you used to say is like, I literally hear your words coming out of my mouth. Every time I go, I'm still waiting.

Lily

So good. I do that to my own kids sometimes still, like, I'll be like, still waiting for you. Oh, that's awesome.

Lily

Well, yeah, for context you like Tatum student taught my class than taught in her own classroom. And then when I was on maternity leave before, then it was awesome. Because you were able to, like, come in and learn the routines and then take over. Also, like such a gift to me to be like, Oh, this is ideal. You know, like, my students are in good hands. Like it felt very seamless.

Tatum

Yeah. And it was I mean, it was the ultimate gift to me too just to be able to go in and then to get to stay. Yeah, that was just such a Knox's, like, still, I feel like both Knox and education.com, you know, like, are the two professional experiences that really stand out in such a positive way.

Tatum

You know, like, they were just such like happy environments. You know, we're like, people who really took care of each other. And like, people were encouraged to be brave, and.

Lily

Yeah, and try new things. So yeah, tell us about that transition, like so you were classroom teaching? And then what did you do next?

Tatum

Yeah. So at the end of, you know, I think what a lot of educators are facing I got tired, you know, like I faced once I was Austin, you know, and I had a particularly like, difficult semester, and I actually don't know of many times where I've ever been that tired. Like, really, truly, like, just exhausted from the, the stuff that was going on.

Tatum

And I was that's the first time I started to question like, I don't know if I can actually do this forever. You know, like, I don't know if this is sustainable. Like, we're going home to my kids with like, nothing. You know, and like, that was Yeah, I was like, doing a lot of escapist coping mechanisms too like, you know, like Mariah introduced me to Sophie Kinsella.

Tatum

So I was just reading like girl trash and all the time to like, try to distract myself. It was so funny. It was so it was so great. And it actually got me I still look back on that time, the hard time. Like what got me through it was like seeing you do something else. Right and reading Sophie Kinsella.

Lily

But I think that like, honestly, that is a good message for a model of somebody or some, you know, something out there that you could do, even if it's just like seeing different possibilities.

Lily

Sometimes when it's a hard time, like we all get so narrow in our focus, like, well, like, what else can I do? Like seeing other options? And then also like, yeah, figuring out what works to make you feel good in the moment. It was like long term, short term, short term strategy news.

Tatum

No, totally. And I mean, the I think another thing that like really set me up, like, I'm so grateful that Carolyn put me on that amazing program with agency by design that opened doors, it really, really did like having that in my background, having been able to work on that project.

Lily

Yeah, so tell us about that.

Tatum

That was actually mid that was my transition point. Right. Like it was this maker based research program that was coming out of Project Zero and agency by design. Yeah, that was my first experience with like, starting to like, work with developing like, and watching people develop thinking routines.

Tatum

Right, like, because we were working with the researchers and like helping them to refine the thinking routines and then helping them to come up with lessons, you know, that would effectively utilize those thinking routines, like all the different applications and especially for the lower grades are really could use this in kindergarten, we're like actually thinking about this for like middle school, you're going to do with a five year old?

Tatum

And they pulled me for there, they had like a little learning design group that was helping to write lessons and do all of that stuff. So that was really, really fun. And that gave me the entry point to like thinking, okay, yeah, curriculum design is something that I would really like to do.

Tatum

And I started Craig's Listing it up. Yes. And I think I remember messaging you and being like, oh my god, I see this really cool post for education.com. They were looking for somebody to align their common core materials and it was like, I just feel comfortable even saying this on a podcast I do. It was the luckiest entry point into the most monotonous, horrible, boring, mind numbing task that any person could ever be given.

Lily

I remember when I first left the classroom, like I did similar, you know, mind numbingly boring like alignment tasks that it honestly felt like a vacation in some ways to me. It's nowhere near as hard as teaching. I'm like, I had a baby at that point, too. So I was like, just give me the most boring thing possible, not sustainable long term either.

Tatum

So I feel like if I hadn't been doing it for an entire year, a more short term task, like it would have been okay. You know, but like, I ended up getting carpal tunnel too because like, the way the way that we did it, we had that Common Core CSSO website back in the day, where we were literally copying and pasting, you know, like, different stuff into this, like, you know, huge spreadsheet of, you know, links to the worksheets.

Tatum

And like, yeah, in the beginning, I loved it. Because I was like, Yo, due to the different this is amazing, like, and I could work from home and like, I took a trip to New York and was able to work from a cafe and I was like, This is it.

Lily

Wait, was this where you also teaching at this point?

Tatum

Because that's an interesting story. Again, this is like, you know, I feel like my major needs taken like multiple stages. So I was doing that for education.com. They asked me to come on, as a contractor, you know, it was going to be like, almost full time, but it still would have been a contract.

Tatum

So I was already feeling like, well, this is risky, but I think I'm going to do it. You know, like, I think I'm going to do it. Yeah, I quit my job. And that was really painful. And everybody at education got laid off like a month later. I was like, okay.

Lily

You can't predict, right.

Tatum

I mean, this is like the best initiation into startups that I ever could have been given. I ended up basically, like, I panicked. So I ended up reaching out to our network. And I think it was Amber, actually, yeah, she's she had just moved into Berkeley Unified and heard from somebody that was like, desperately looking for like a kindergarten teacher.

Tatum

And I was like, Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I basically got the job the next day. And so it was, so I went from like, telling my old school that I absolutely loved, I'm quitting to go do this new thing. And suddenly, I'm at a new school.

Lily

I mean, but we were talking about before this podcast interview, too. It's like, being a teacher is pretty much always in demand. So it's like, that's also the great thing. Oh, my gosh, like what's happening? Like, how do I make this work? It's like, okay, you got a job tomorrow.

Tatum

Totally, yeah. So I was able to work at that job. And also keep that contract, just just on like a smaller level. I kept that contract for almost a year. And then summer rolls back around again. And I was still working on lining those common core standards. They were in a brace. Because that's what I was doing on the weekends and before school

Tatum

I ended up there was this amazing woman, and she's the one that actually had taken over, she was moving and she was going to be stepping down from her editorial director position, and they needed somebody to step in. And they were looking for someone and she recommended me. And like, it was just Yeah, I just got so lucky. I guess so lucky. Like, and then I met the CEO and the most amazing boss I ever had. I got ridiculously like, after being not so lucky.

Lily

Right, but part of it is like you persevered, right? Like there were so like, and also you like you kept going right and making like whatever the best next step was those opportunities to like, I think a lot of people would be like, Oh, after that will lay off, you know, that you witness and going back to classroom, a lot of people would just be like, nope, stay in the classroom teacher.

Lily

Yeah. Like the fact that you kept doing the contract on the side, like you decided to go off to this other position. Like, it's also like, the steps that you took along the way to consider like, explore things.

Tatum

Yeah. And I'm so glad that I did it. And I still think back to because like, I was in search of that partner teacher relationship. Like, I really just wanted that, you know, for my life. And I had found her it was my friend, Michelle, that I was working with. And then like when I went to education.com That was the hardest part of the decision for me because I was no longer looking to leave the classroom. I was actually quite happy teaching with her.

Tatum

And like I could envision like many many years into the future, like coming to her class first thing in the morning with coffees and be like yeah, I mean, like, there's there's definitely a bit of like loss to my story, I think in leaving teaching.

Tatum

Because like, I think one of the things that I really learned too like, in my time at education.com is like, I really started to miss teachers and kids in a way that I just was not able to emotionally process until I finally got back into the classroom in Switzerland, you know, and saw the impact that it had on me as a person. And I was like, oh, I need this.

Tatum

Actually. I really Do it like, this isn't just about missing it, like I need this in my life. Like it makes my life better. It makes me better to be around. I think it makes anybody better to spend time around teachers to be totally on I think it is truly underrated. How amazing teachers are. Yeah, like, just they're at the forefront of everything.

Lily

Absolutely. And like, are generally like, so awesome. Like I like selfishly started Educator Forever because I was like, I miss hanging out with teachers. And now it's like, so awesome to be like, oh, all my teacher friends all over the country, you know, getting to share.

Lily

And so yeah, tell us about that transition. So you were at education.com, you had a variety of different roles there. And then you move to Switzerland.

Tatum

Yeah, so I moved here and I definitely did move here with that thought in my mind. Because like, I mean, I was doing content and education back home at the end. And like I'm moving to a German speaking country. So like, I don't know, how many content jobs there's gonna be for an English.

Tatum

Yeah, when I made the decision to move here, I had already kind of like, you know, made the decision, like, yes, I want to go back to teaching, you know, like, I do want to do it. And I applied for my first job. And, like, suffered the serious karma.

Tatum

I remember, we went through this like interview process at Knox once where there was this woman who was coming with this, like, amazing background, like she had been a teacher. And then she went off to curriculum development, and she was like, so wonderful. And we were like, Yeah, but she just hasn't had enough recent teaching experience. You know, I don't know, it was super sad. And like, we didn't hire.

Tatum

And then same thing happened to me. And of course, I mean, like, I hadn't taught in like, six or seven years, you know, so I went back to the director there, and I was like, Listen, you like, gotta get my foot in the door somehow. Yeah, and I'm up for it. Like, I know that something's the way. Yeah, like, Do you have a sub position, and that ended up being I cannot tell you what an amazing job being a sub is.

Tatum

I only ever did it in Berkeley, like, you know, when I was going through grad school, and that was a little bit wild, because like you're getting through all the schools, you know, so you don't really establish relationships, but if you ever have the opportunity to just be a sub at one school. Yeah. Like, you get to know people, you establish relationships, you get to know the kids, you know, like, just all of that, like you get, you actually get a bit of what it feels like to still be a teacher and also be somebody who like, is there when people need support?.

Tatum

You know, and like, that feels really good too, to be able to come and like, you know, stability for the kids, because they know you at that point, and like, you know, reassurance for the teacher who always feels bad about being sick, but you know, like, it's nice if they know somebody. And so yeah, and like just being, like I said, being around teachers again, and it's the best thing.

Tatum

Like, even my husband was like, You are like a different person. Yeah, you know, like, he's like, you're like a different person when you come back from the classroom. And when you come back from having that and like I said, the school is special, the school is so special, like, it's just such a sweet place.

Tatum

And like all of the people that are there are so sweet. And the administration is like, super sweet. The kids are adorable. And like, again, they have lake shore.

Lily

For this resource room, because I still have my mind blown by it.

Tatum

It's, it's honestly, I feel like the school is a model for what school should look like, for a model for what schools should look like. I mean, the teachers don't have a lot of, they do have personal belongings, but it's not like where you own your entire classroom, like it is in the United States, because you procured all of those materials, you know, like over the course of years and your own money.

Tatum

You know, which is oftentimes the case and here they're like just swapping things in and out. You know, like I told you about amazing story.

Tatum

Like at the end of the year I was looking for I was teaching kindergarten for the last two weeks of school and I wanted to like set up, you know, stretch and explore centers for them. And I go into this amazing real Actually, I didn't go into the I discovered the amazing resource room while whilst being tasked with something and walked past the room. It was like what is?

Lily

What laid in the resource room?

Tatum

An entire bucket of Magna tiles, like where in the world do you go where you just find an unclaimed giant collection of magnet tiles, hundreds of dollars of magnetic you know, and I felt like a thief, like carry it like are like all like covertly was carrying them out of the room. Like somebody's gonna see me, you know, like, carry these to my classroom.

Tatum

But I'm like, That was okay. That's what the school does. They trade materials in and out when the kids aren't actively using something or when they've grown tired of it. They take it back to that room and then it's open for other teachers to use it and I'm just like, and like all those Lakeshore games

Tatum

You may have heard those like shorthands, totally Oh my god. But it was actually like being in a library. They had one of those things where it's like a rolling library thing where it like, opens and closes and reveals more games and new open the others, like even more like rows and rows of Lakeshore games.

Lily

Amazing.

Tatum

I just imagine a world where like, all teachers are that well resourced, especially in the United States. I mean, again, I'm talking about an international school. So like, I know that there's just a lot more resourcing there in general, you know, because parents are paying tuition, it's a private school, but like, it should just be that way. Just be that way.

Lily

Absolutely, absolutely. So thinking about to that transition, like kind of back to the classroom in some form, I think is interesting, too, because we all have different things. And I always talk about, like, different points in your life, like, you want different things, you know, and different things are benefit.

Lily

And so I think it's always kind of tuning into, like, do I feel like I need a kid fix? Like, do I need time with teachers? Do I need time to just like, sit alone in a room and like write, like having a baby, like, kindergarten for seven years, I was like, just let me be in a quiet room.

Lily

So I think different points in your life, like then when my kids got older, I was like, oh, I want more teacher time. Like, I need more interaction with teachers, like all sorts of things like it's always changing.

Lily

So I think that's cool for people to think about too. Like, it doesn't have to be one of the other too. Because I know in addition to subbing you are also starting a business, which I would love for you to tell us about Mindly Games and kind of how that came about.

Tatum

Yeah, so that came about actually, because I was subbing, and unfortunately, my son was getting sick all the time. Like, oh, my god, sickness in Switzerland is a whole different beast than it is in California, like little kids here, when you first put them into daycare. They're sick, from like October to April, like struggling.

Tatum

Like, there were there were times like, Here I am, like paying for this daycare thinking that I'm going to be subbing I was home for a month with my son, because he was just sick the entire time.

Tatum

I had been on Facebook talking to my friend, Mike, that I used to work with on the games, and we were just missing each other. You know, like, that was the hardest thing about moving to Switzerland and not working together with the people that I loved anymore. And we just were like, it'd be so great if we could just like conjure some reason to work together.

Tatum

Again, Mike is also a special human like, he is the most uplifting, and like, just, he's just constantly like this positive force of like, good and loving the world. And he like, makes you feel good about the work you do. And he's just like, his cheerleader. Right. And so I was like, Oh, my God, if I could just work with Mike again. So great.

Tatum

Yeah. And so me and him, and we put on a few more friends, we were like, the sounds like so much fun. You know, like, we should just definitely do this. We started like real slow. You know, like, it took us about a year to get some first Game Center when we launched in January. And that was the point at which I pulled my poor husband off. So we've really needed an engineer, and support man.

Lily

I mean, it's awesome you have an engineer round.

Tatum

Yeah, no, it's really awesome. We have Peter for the site. And then we also have this incredible engineer Esteban, and he just like, is a mastermind for engineering games. Like he's built games for PlayStation and Nintendo. And they're just both incredible and super fun to work with.

Tatum

And, but we made the decision in February that I just really wanted to give it a go, you know, in a try. And I would say as with all things, you know, like, the timing is not right there. So what's going on in Silicon Valley, that is known as a funding winter right now, very Game of Thrones. But like, it's not an easy funding environment right now.

Tatum

And I was spending a ton of time on it for a little while. And then I ended up making the decision, you know, like, hey, let's put a timeline on this. Like, when can we financially afford to do this until you know, and we ended with August and I think we're having this conversation like May or June?

Tatum

And I was like, alright, what am I going to do with my time? Am I going to continue on and just pray for the best with this funding? Because that's like, full time job, you know, like, you don't really have time to like build stuff, or am I just going to focus on the product, you don't build as many things as I possibly can.

Tatum

And so that was the decision that I made. And so I knew that came with a cost, you know, that we were not going to be able to just like, you know, secure funding and if it wasn't at a point where it would be able to make money which obviously were too too early on, I would need to go back to teaching but again, I can be a sub.

Tatum

Yeah, that I'm so grateful for that school is really really cool, but I love my job having like so much fun. It's so so much fun, but it's also a hustle, you know, like and that's a invoke my inner Lily Jones all the time because you built your business on the side of like working in so many different. I mean, we're.

Tatum

I remember you going to those meetings like before I even left the classroom, which was like a group of women trying to start businesses and like hold each other accountable. Like that is the right way back in the day. Yeah, yeah, I was when I was still in the classroom. And then like, we work together in education.com for like, what, five, six years, and you were still doing it.

Tatum

Like, that whole time, you were still working on all of that. And it's like, yeah, it makes it, it makes it like happy process. I'm like, this is just how it goes, you know, like, I'm just building something slowly. And luckily, we are from such an amazing profession, where you can keep going back to it when you need to.

Tatum

You know, and that there are possibilities there to support you and nothing just emotional. Like, you know, health too. It's just great to go back to the classroom. Sometimes. It really, really is.

Lily

I yeah, I mean, I love that. And I've never had an experience, like giving outside funding of a company. But I have enjoyed, like.

Tatum

It's really demoralizing. I know, I'm like, avoided at all costs.

Lily

I'm like, that seems intense, like maybe worked out for the better to have, like having a pause on that and to focus on creating and like, even though it's slower growth, like you get to be more in it.

Lily

So I think like, I definitely think you know, as yourself, like I've had many years until like, the past couple years, being able to, like go full force in Educator Forever, you know, but like, many, many years have been like, Okay, I'm gonna, like start this online course. But like, you know, 20 people check it, so it's not gonna, like fund my life and do other things on the side.

Lily

Having that, also, that sense of, that's what we all need to make, like make for ourselves or figure out for ourselves is like, Alright, I need this like, and it goes back to like, the short term, long term thing again, to like, I need this amount of income every month, or every year and like, you know, the pies kind of shrink, if that makes sense.

Lily

Like, I have this like pie of like consulting, curriculum writing that was big, and then like, a tiny little bit of Educator Forever to start, and then it's like flip flopped. So like, but it was like, not immediate, right? Oh, and then this part becomes 50/50. And then it goes more, you know.

Lily

So I think that it's okay for anybody to like, choose to do something in the short term that does not necessarily align with their long term goal. And that often, like enables the growth of what you really want to happen.

Tatum

No, I completely agree. And I don't want to make it seem like you always have to fall back on teaching. Like, once you've got like, a solid consulting portfolio, like, I'm also doing consulting, like, I'm still doing a building right now. You know, and like, that's just I'll take it's kind of like, supplementing the subbing, you know, and that that is really, really like.

Tatum

You just you have so many possibilities, you know, for for the ways in which you can make it work and yeah, just it's been, it's fun. I love education. Yeah, education for this. I love education, actually, for the flexibility of application of skills.

Lily

Yes, me too. Me to. Talk to us a little bit just about like, the Mindly Games product. And like, how what that your educational games like what kind of games do you have? I mean, I know because I love them.

Tatum

Are you ready for this? Because I was thinking about that, like, what got me interested in education games, and you and me, we were doing user research testing. I think we were like part of a classroom group or PBS came to our classroom. I remember that I forgot. Back Back when they called them digital burning objects.

Lily

So funny.

Tatum

Yeah. And so there was this woman there. And I still remember she was like, so nice. I don't remember her name. But I was like, so into it. Like, I was so excited about like those games. And she pulled me aside when she was leaving. And she's she was like, I feel like you were really good at this. And I was like, oh, and that just like planted this like furious seed.

Tatum

Ya know, and it's ultimately what actually made me want to work at education.com. So I did do Common Core tagging. And I also tested their kindergarten games in my classroom when I was still teaching. And so that was the thing that I wanted to do the most. And it was actually like, they were just like really kicking off. I think it was the second grade games when I very first came on.

Tatum

That lasted like whopping six months. And then they were like, done with games and wanting to move on to interactive worksheets. And I was like, womp, womp.

Lily

What sounds more fun games or interactive worksheets?

Tatum

So then I spent the next two years building interactive worksheets, but like, yeah, it's one of those things where I was refusing to let it go. That's kind of actually what led to make a friendship with me, my friend. Graham because he was the CTO at education.com. And we were like these like warriors for games.

Tatum

You know, we're just like, every like, No, you couldn't have a conversation. We were so annoying, you couldn't have a conversation with us without us trying to like slip in some like permission to build the game somewhere.

Tatum

Yeah, and then for Mindly, what we we did some, I mean, like, I was obsessed with games, like I was basically just like, that's I have all of these, like books where I was because I was trying to constantly sell it, you know, and like, figure out a way to get it approved. And so we were doing all this research.

Tatum

And that was really, really cool guy at South by Southwest Elliott headman that that Graham had met, and we got introduced to him, and all of his stuff is incredible. He's done like all of this, like, user research on like, ice sensor training is so cool.

Tatum

So he would like, you know, test games with kids and like, look at the game and look at what distracted them, you know, or if they would pay attention to it at all, like what elements that needed to be considered. I think the guy has like a panel picker up right now, for South by Southwest where he's focusing on like, the whole, like, do I feel agency in some way, he's doing it with Legos right now. He's working with Lego.

Tatum

And it's like, you know, the, the interaction of the parent assisting the child and then the child going on, you know, to build the Legos on their own. And he did something similar with games where he was looking at, like, what elements make a good game.

Tatum

And so we were setting his framework and like, trying to re envision, you know, like, like, what would a game like this look like? That would be really fun. And so he actually is one of our advisors. Oh, yeah. And so like, we, you know, we dream up our games, and then take them back to him, for him to pick apart, you know, and give us.

Tatum

It's gonna be forever until we're actually even able to revise them because again, the coded but like, just, it's, it's been so much fun to figure out what makes it fun for kids, and then to go test it with kids and find out that they also like it.

Tatum

That also happens, but I mean, it's great to get the feedback, right, like, because

Tatum

So basically, what we have is the stance that all of these games that are out there that are meant to teach, actually are not really in the greatest service of teachers, because you need teachers to teach. And these games that are trying to teach, you're not really doing a good job to begin with. And it takes the autonomy away from the teacher who's actually the person who should be using the tool, you know, to reinforce what they've already taught.

Tatum

And so our games are built with a focus on engagement. You know, we're not trying to teach the skill we're trying to make mastering the skill fun. Yeah. And so that's, that's the core tenant of how we approach game development.

Tatum

And it is and yeah, like making the games with these guys is so super fun, right? Like, and the feedback process is also really fun. Because like, so we have that game.

Tatum

It's a dyno eggs, and there's three little eggs across the bottom and you like answer a question. And then their visual version of the game is like, you crack the egg and then it just now kids loved this. They thought it was really funny. Right? But like when I was actually trying to write the description of the game and how it worked, I was like, Mike, what are we what do I do here? Like baby dinos for breakfast? You want to scramble?

Lily

Yeah, first, I was like, What's the problem? But yeah, I guess I can see.

Tatum

Like even me, like I go back and forth. Do you know what I mean? Where I'm like, Should we just keep that? Why should we be for and then? And then Mike was like, why not say that? That could be funny.

Lily

I mean, kids would like it.

Tatum

Kids did like it. But now, now they're helping a baby dyno to hatch. So now when you crack the egg, there's a little baby dyno that appears. Yeah. So game making games is literally the funnest thing in the world.

Lily

Awesome. And what are your plans for growing Mindly?

Tatum

Yeah, so growing. So we're in a tough spot, right? Like we were just talking about, like using our, you know, like, side jobs to like fund advertising and things like that.

Tatum

So I think for us at the moment, we have this goddess started in January, just you know, really young. The reason I the reason I quit working, actually in February, because I was like, this is the time, like this is when you do Back to School planning. Like if we're going to have something that we want to launch that we're proud of. It needs to be by August.

Tatum

And if we're going to build traffic via organic, then, you know, this is the time to do it. We did such a good job. Like we really, you know, we had so many pages we were getting like this crazy organic growth that was just like, I mean, I was I was stunned by how well right it.

Tatum

August comes up. And I mean, it's like doing so back school happens and like, plummet. That's normal, right? Like I was expecting that also so hard though, even though I'm used to what that line looks like, yes. Still, like, every, you know, you just had when you're like, yeah, yeah, it's growing, it's growing. It's growing.

Tatum

at one point in a day, we got: 1000

Lily

Like a special breed of summertime, though, like post COVID, where people are just like, I'm going hard on making it.

Tatum

No, no screens at all, no screens at all. Yeah. And so that was that was nerve racking, but it was also making steady growth, right up to back to school. And so we were seeing things starting to climb again.

Tatum

I felt like we're I spent the entire summer just like cranking out games like building new skills. And like trying to make sure that we had like, as comprehensive as we could, you know, for a launch of scale coverage.

Tatum

And, yeah, two big things happened. So one big thing was that there's a bug on our site. And like, half the games, disappeared from third grade and from kindergarten, which, that's horrible, which were our two biggest drivers of organic traffic that we had gotten so much so far.

Tatum

So that happened, and we didn't immediately notice. Because you would have to be looking at the filter pages. So we have like this main library page. And then if you go into the filters for kindergarten in third grade, then you'll see that those pages are missing.

Tatum

And I was like, I was so focused on SEO in spring, that I thought I had us set up pretty well for success. So what I was more focused on was building new games and meeting new skills. You know, I finally ended up coming back to SEO, and we've got all these what are called orphan pages, you know, and as these orphan pages are basically like pages that exist in your sitemap and on your site, but like users have no way to navigate them, navigate to them.

Tatum

And even worse, when Google is crawling your site, they can see that this issue is there, which means that they're going to downgrade your ranking. I'm sorry, is so sad. No, but I mean, like we went through this also, like so many times that education.com was never like in charge of SEO. So it's not like your baby. Yeah. And so that was that was the big emergency that happened.

Tatum

And then the other thing that actually adds, so the use of ads, actually, I think this is helpful for anybody that's potentially trying to start an education business, I learned something random.

Tatum

Most people are only targeting us, like when they're running ads on Google search, or on Facebook, everybody's always only targeting the US. So that's what I was doing too. And I was setting up my very first search campaign through Google and search engine marketing, and I accidentally targeted Georgia, the country.

Tatum

Amazing, okay, like, we got all of this traffic, right, like crazy amount of traffic like this huge, like, and I was like, Whoa, what is that? You know, like, This is crazy. And it took me a while to figure out that it was GA. But what was interesting is I did notice, also a sudden spike in impressions, and search organic.

Tatum

And I was like, Wait a second, they say these things have nothing to do with each other. Like, what is going on here? Like I'm running ads just to run ads. I'm not running ads, because I feel like it influences search engine results. It's not something I was ever taught to do. You know, like, it's not something that we talked about previously.

Tatum

And so I look into it, and I find out, okay, they actually, you know, Google says these things don't influence each other. But then like, a lot of the SEO courses that you can take online, because I went digging for like this information will tell you that there is this indirect influence that search engine marketing will have on organic rankings, because of people see something in the sponsored section, and then also see it in the search results. They're more likely to click on it.

Lily

Mm hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Tatum

So then the other thing that happened was, I flipped it to a worldwide app. But I put it to only English because obviously, our site isn't English. So that that helps me to target keywords that were in English that were specifically ones we were trying to rank for.

Tatum

I think this is behind why we did so well. So here's the other one, one moment. So I get help from Google, you know, and their Google Ads professional. And I had previously had my marketing set to both exact and phrase match, which meant that they were, you know, serving for ads that were very close or exact to the keywords that I was was trying to target.

Tatum

And that was having that great influence on search engine marketing. She was, you know, I have no idea what I'm doing. And most of the I'm like less. So learning as we go.

Lily

That's good for you. Instead of it being like, oh, it's totally like unapproachable. Like it's like, yeah, I gotta just like be in it.

Tatum

Yeah. And Google ads is really confusing. Like, it really took me a long time even to launch my first app, like, launching my first app took months because I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing here. I would like I would like open the tool, you know, where you create the ads and be totally overwhelmed and just close.

Lily

I've only gotten to that point.

Tatum

And so finally, they have, I think Google can see when you're getting a lot of traffic, so they assigned a rep to us, you know, to help us for free, which I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. This is really cool.

Tatum

So she helps and she's like, Hey, you want to change your keywords to broad match is gonna get you so much more traffic, because I was like talking about like, wanting to be back to school, and I changed it to broad match. And like, unfortunately, like broad match is so broad.

Tatum

That like when somebody searches, say for instance, for like, Starfall Uh huh, I saw because we have this tool for SEO for sem rush. And it shows what add keywords you're showing up for. And I saw I started seeing that we were showing up for add keywords like Starfall. And I was like, Oh, no.

Tatum

And then suddenly, I see our organic starting to drop. Oh, no. Right. So we had those two things coalescing, at the same time, we had the bug on the site that caused like a huge portion of our games to disappear that had the most search traffic. Plus, we're getting these huge spikes from Google where they're seeing we have this problem.

Tatum

Yeah, right. And like games are suddenly disappearing, and we're losing keywords. And then I have this other problem where the search engine marketing also isn't reinforcing it. And so like it's been, we decided we were only going to be running ads until the end of August, we just fix these things.

Lily

But he didn't change it back to the not broad terms, or like the exact.

Tatum

Yeah, no, I did I change that back. And I kept some of the broad because, you know, like, I was like, Okay, I do see the benefit here.

Tatum

But like I again, if you're trying to use search on your marketing to influence SEO, you have to be careful there with what you choose. Do you choose the exact or do you choose the broaden? Yeah, I'm really, really grateful that that school is like, willing to help me as a substitute.

Lily

Because like, this is just like one spot on the whole life journey. Yeah, it's like, yeah, stuff like that has happened to me to have been like, like, oh, wait, what happened?

Lily

You never and it's always I feel like it's always after like, Oh, this is going great. Like, or the or this is the most important time. Yeah. This is the biggest one, here we go. But it's like, all of that is just part of the process. Like right now, you know.

Tatum

And I mean, you know, to like that pie, right? Like most of your pie was coming from consulting and like a little bit of educator forever. And like, I feel like you just you can't force it. Now, like, it's gonna, that pie will switch, you know, in terms of what's bringing in the majority when it's the right time.

Tatum

And like, you can resist, or you can just kind of go with it and be like, Okay, I'm supposed to be to here. And now that's actually the best for me anyways, and I know that. So like, yeah, yeah, totally.

Lily

Absolutely. And you can like, learn through the process. And it's kind of like you even like, similar to you back in the day, like taking on another teaching job while doing education consulting for education.com.

Lily

It seems like it's like a similar phase. Yeah, like doing this as like your base. I always used to call it yelling my base of like, what I can expect in terms of income, and then everything else is like, getting it off the ground.

Tatum

Yeah. Like I said, we're so lucky to be in education and have so many options. It's just we really are. Yeah, I really are. And again, being with kids in the classroom, I know most people who are looking to transition out of the classroom are exhausted just like I was, and they might actually need that break.

Tatum

But after that break, usually I feel like they a lot of people will feel the same way that I did. You know, and be like, actually, kids and teachers are amazing for me. And like it's not, like it's actually a great thing to be able to go back and like dip in.

Lily

Yes. And dip in totally like and if you decide you want to be a classroom teacher forever, like great, amazing. If you decide you want to like do something of your own and do something, you know, like you can create for anybody the mix that works for you in that moment.

Lily

I think like you're saying like the opportunity is that there are so many, right. So it's really figuring out like, what will meet your needs in the moment and also what feels good to you. Yeah, awesome.

Lily

Well, thank you so much for sharing that your journey. Do you have any final advice for people who are maybe thinking about leaving the classroom or trying something else? Maybe if they're not even leaving the classroom? I try something else out there in education.

Tatum

Yeah, I mean, my biggest advice would be like, if you're interested at all in things outside of the classroom, don't wait until you're burnout. That would be like the biggest advice because I feel like, you know, you don't want to get to that desperate place where you're like, I gotta get out of this.

Tatum

No, because you're just so tired. You want to be able to start to create that flexibility and options for yourself as soon as you can. And And, and if you are in that place where you are burned out, you're in good company because that's where I know like, just be patient with the process because you can think you found something and you think it's working and then suddenly it didn't work and you have to go back for a second.

Tatum

That doesn't mean you failed. Like, it totally doesn't mean you failed means you're very, like, you know, flexible, brave, and you can keep on trying.

Lily

Yes, and there there will always be things to try. Awesome. Well, where can people find out more about Mindly or connect with you?

Tatum

Yeah, they can definitely connect me on LinkedIn. I'm always down to meet new people. And Mindly Games is mindlygames.com. So yes, please. I'm trying to tell people. Yes. Because their marketing efforts aren't working.

Lily

Oh yeah. Everybody go test them out. Use them in your classroom.

Tatum

Yes. And feedback. Oh, my God. Like if people would be willing to give feedback they can, they can find me at Tatum@mindlygames.com. Like, I'm just always like, we'd love so much to hear from people that were I like, randomly, will try to reach out to people that have signed up for email lists, and nobody will ever give me feedback.

Lily

I'm sure we can have people give you feedback.

Tatum

that's be amazing. I'm really lucky. Because again, I have I have some kids in the real world that are willing to play the games and like your feedback and users, but like, I would just love to have just like a broader mix of, of that would be great.

Tatum

Yeah. And if you have like critiques like, just give it like, I'm ready. I would love to just hear what people think, so.

Lily

That's great. And it's free for people to try out the games?

Tatum

Yeah, so the way that we did it is there's a portion of the games that are for free, and a portion of the games that are premium, because that's like kind of our special sauce is that we develop like 10 games per skill.

Tatum

So that, like if kids have to master multiplication facts, they don't just have one game, they can play, they have like literally 10 Different games that they can play as they're going through.

Tatum

But on the homepage, we set up so that all of the games are free, so that you can kind of like do a taster of all of them. So you go to the home and then on the first row is the game of the week, and we're trying to like put something out that's actually useful and change it every week.

Tatum

And then underneath that you've got some feature games for every grade. And all of those games are free. And that represents like the majority of the collection that we have right now. Like as we add new games, we're trying to make sure that we can find some space to rotate new games in so that people are able to try them.

Lily

Yay, awesome. Well thanks again for coming on. It's nice to see you.

Tatum

You too. Have a great day.