Dixie: 00:00:00

Today's guest is someone whose work hits close to

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home for me as a cat rescuer.

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I'm talking with Matt Wildman from

the National Cat Behavior Helpline,

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the place people turn when they're

overwhelmed, confused, or desperate

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to keep their cats in their homes.

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I know firsthand how critical

that kind of support is, and

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Matt is one of the voices on the other end

helping prevent surrenders, solve behavior

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problems, and keep families together.

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I'm grateful to have him here today to

talk about the hotline's impact and hear

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some of the real stories behind the calls

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Hi, Matt.

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Thank you so much for coming on the show.

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Matt: Oh, yes.

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Thank you for having me.

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I'm very excited to be here.

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Dixie: I'm very excited about this

too because as a cat rescuer, this is

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something that I'm very passionate about.

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I think it is an absolutely wonderful

resource for people because there

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are people that have cats that

have major behavior problems.

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They don't know what to do and so they

think about surrendering their cats.

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So I love that this is there to

help those people and also for

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people who are new to cats as well.

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Matt: Exactly.

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Dixie: So tell me how you got started

and how you came up with the idea for

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the National Cat Behavior Helpline.

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Matt: Okay, sure.

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Let's see.

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So back in 2010, I was working with a

surrender prevention program under the

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Humane Society of the United States,

which is now Humane World for Animals.

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And one of the services that this

program offered people was we had

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a certified cat behavior consultant

who, for free, would assist people

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with cat behavior challenges.

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And I didn't know anything

about cats at that point.

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I'd been around cats, but I

didn't know anything about their

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behavior, but I was very intrigued.

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Her name is Beth Adelman.

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She's wonderful, and she's a

certified cat behavior consultant.

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And for three years, I was mentored

by her, and I read everything

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I could and and then became a

cat behaviorist in my own right.

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Previously, I had been a teacher

for eight years at a Brooklyn public

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high school, and I say that because

what I was able to do once-- I worked

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for the Humane Society of the United

States, now Humane World for Animals.

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But I loved teaching, and what I was

able to do is utilize that teaching.

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I created a course this is back

in: 2013

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And the course was meant for shelter

personnel to become essentially

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trained cat behavior counselors

to assist their own shelters.

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And about 250 shelter personnel

went through the course and it was,

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very successful in that regard.

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But what we found is that just,

the nature of animal sheltering,

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there's a fair amount of turnover.

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It's a very high-stress job.

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And just, the nature of life,

people come and go from jobs.

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And what was happening was the shelters,

would have somebody who was trained

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to, to handle cat behavior cases,

whether it was from fosters or adopters

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or members of the general public who

potentially would surrender their cats.

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But once that person left, then the

shelter was left without a resource.

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It'd always been in the back of my head

to start a national helpline because in a

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way, when it comes to surrender prevention

cat behavior counseling is low-hanging

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fruit in that unlike dog training, where

you really need to be with the dog and

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be with the owner and working kind of

hand-in-hand with them, with cat behavior

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counseling, you could do it on the phone.

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In almost all cases it can be

done, it's can be phone-based.

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And it requires, no funding

or anything of that sort.

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So it's in a way very impactful with few,

if any, resources needed other than time.

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Anyway, I'm just in a life situation now

where I had time to develop this helpline.

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We launched it in March.

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We first began reaching out to shelters

and rescues, just cold contacts saying,

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"Hey, we have this helpline, it's free.

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And we, you're welcome to

refer any cases you have."

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Again, whether they're fosters recent

adopters, or people calling from the

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public who are potentially surrendering

their cats because of a behavior issue.

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So we've been doing it since March.

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It's been really successful in

that we have about 40 shelters at

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this point who are sending us calls

or have agreed to send us calls.

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And we have five trained cat

behavior counselors and and myself,

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and in the last couple months,

we've handled about 75 cases or so.

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And our goal is to ultimately

handle thousands and to have every

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shelter referring cases to us,

as well as just by word of mouth.

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And to have ideally a couple

dozen trained cat behavior

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counselors staffing this helpline.

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So it's coming together, very nicely

and we're very excited moving forward.

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Dixie: Where did you do your

training to get certified?

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Matt: There's various

ways to become certified.

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For example, there's one called the

International Association of Animal

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Behavior Consultants, the IAABC.

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I have not gone through

that because I never…

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I've always done this - other than when I

worked for Humane World for Animals where

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they just paid me a salary for this work.

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I've never wanted to, charge

anybody for giving, offering advice.

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So for that reason, there just was

never really a reason for me to

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go and get officially certified.

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It requires just, a variety of coursework

and doing a number of case studies, all

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of which, I've done probably tenfold,

but there just was never real reason

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for me to go through that route.

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It just happened a little bit, organically

in that I was, I was mentored for

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three years by a certified cat behavior

consultant and given every book, I

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could possibly read on cat behavior.

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And then at this point, I've just done

thousands of cases there didn't seem

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a reason to get certified through that

route because it just isn't necessary

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for what for where I am at this moment.

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Dixie: How does the helpline work?

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Are you available certain hours?

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Do people call and leave a message?

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Matt: So we have a email address.

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It's [email protected].

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And what we do is through word of mouth

at this point, like we have a Facebook

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page, some people are reaching out just

individuals or members of the public.

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But primarily it's through

shelters and rescues.

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So a shelter or rescue will let's

just say a recent adopter has

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contacted them and said, "The cats

are hiding and I can't find them."

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So what they do is they just provide us

with the adopter's contact information a

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very bri- brief blurb about what the issue

is just so we know what it is going in.

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And and then we will first text the

cat owner to just arrange a time

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to speak, and then within 48 hours

we'll have a phone call with them.

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And so at least at this point,

there's no phone number.

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It's just we're emailed and

then we utilize our personal

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cell phones to call people.

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Dixie: How many volunteers

do you have helping you?

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Matt: So we have five at the moment.

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Over the past two years, I developed

a second a new or pretty much a

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revised cat behavior counseling

course for Humane World for Animals.

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So it's a self-paced online course.

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It's probably about 20

hours worth of work.

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So these are our current volunteers

who are just an amazing group.

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They either have previously took the

course and they've been doing cat behavior

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counseling, so they are very experienced.

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And then we have a couple volunteers

who recently took the course.

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And in addition to taking the

course, there's a number of case

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studies that the volunteers have

to do, and then we review all them.

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And just to make sure that, by the

time they're handling cases, they,

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have all the knowledge and the skills

they need to handle these cases.

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And of course I'm there to support our

volunteers if there's any particularly

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challenging cases where, you know, if they

wanna review and, if there are, challenges

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in making an assessment or with the advice

to offer we collaborate a lot on that.

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Dixie: Is that course available to anybody

and is there a charge for that course?

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Matt: No, it's a free course.

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Yeah, it's available to anyone.

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Anyone can take the course.

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, You're not in any way committing

yourself to volunteer for the helpline.

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It's just if somebody is interested in

volunteering for the helpline, the first

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step is that they take that course.

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And if you just go to I

believe it's humanepro.org

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there's information about the Cat

Behavior Counseling course, or you can

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just Google Cat Behavior Counseling

course Humane World, and it'll come up.

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Dixie: Yeah, 'cause I think it's

a great resource just for people

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involved in cat rescue in general.

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That's a great thing to have.

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I mean, I've been doing cat rescue

for about 20 years and I'm pretty good

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with a lot of behavioral things, but

then there are still things that come

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up for me that are quite challenging

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Matt: Oh, for sure.

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Yeah.

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I spoke to somebody yesterday

who, has had many cats.

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She was just an older woman and she'd

had many cats throughout her life and

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had done rescue and this was the first

time that she ever had a case where just

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two cats were not getting along at all.

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But we get that a lot where people

have had cats for years and,

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almost inevitably at some point

there's gonna be a behavior issue.

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So we're there as needed.

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There is another resource that I also

created which is it's not quite as

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intensive as the Cat Behavior Counseling

course but still extremely comprehensive.

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It's called The Guide to

Cat Behavior Counseling.

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It's about a 45 or 50-page document.

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I created it and it's published

by Humane World for Animals,

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and that's a free guide.

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You can download it.

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So if you just Google Guide to Cat

Behavior Counseling, that'll come up

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and it's a very practical guide for how

to handle pretty much any cat behavior

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case that may come up or situation

that a person might be dealing with.

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Dixie: Yeah, that's great.

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I'm gonna go check out

both of them actually.

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Like I said, I've been doing this a long

time, but I still don't know everything,

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so it's always good to get new information

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Matt: Yeah.

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No, absolutely.

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What we find also in this helpline which,

and actually what the course and the

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guide to a lesser extent dis-discusses

is the counseling aspect of cat behavior

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counseling is extremely important.

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So of course, we need the

knowledge and the skills and

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awareness of how, cats behave.

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But almost as important is how to

talk to somebody who's at their wit's

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end with their cat and ex-extremely

frustrated, let's say, with a cat peeing

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all over the house or just very upset

with two cats, who are consistently

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fighting or having, not getting along.

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And so a lot of it is helping people get

out of that crisis mode that they're in.

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Reminding them of their love for

their cat giving them some hope that

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this can be resolved, and really

presenting ourselves as an ally.

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So it's not just like a person

calls and we just ask a bunch of

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questions and, assess and then advise.

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There's a real interpersonal

component to it.

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And that's very important also because One

of the reasons we, feel that a helpline

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is very important and it's a really

valuable resource to the animal sheltering

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world is that it does take time.

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The first initial phone call

might be anywhere from like 25

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to 30 minutes, sometimes longer.

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But follow-up calls are

always, almost always needed.

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And that's why it's so important to

establish a good relationship with

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the the cat owner so that they feel

comfortable reaching out and saying, "Hey

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we're making progress, but we're not all

there yet," or, "I did all your advice

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and it seems there's still an issue, so

let's, let's continue to problem solve."

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Or in some cases, , the person just

has not taken any of the advice

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just because, let's say, life got

in the way and they've, they were in

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crisis mode, they're no longer in it.

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And we just are there to gently

encourage people to implement the

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advice so that, the problem resolves.

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I worked at a s- several animal

shelters and very familiar with just the

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intensity and the amount of work, and

it's, consistently putting out fires.

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And there's really typically not the

time for a shelter staff person, whoever

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they may be to spend half an hour

on the phone and then make follow-up

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calls and do all that work in addition

to everything else they have to do.

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So the helpline is really there to

be this, kind of companion resource

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to what,, to support animal shelters.

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Dixie: From my personal experience,

if somebody contacts me about

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rehoming a cat, of course, I'm gonna

try to provide all the information

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to get them to keep the cat.

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And you can try to be as empathetic

as possible, and I find that they

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still try to shut you down right away.

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They might be wanting to give you a cat

that's peeing all over the house, and

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it's kind of like, well, if I take that

cat, then that's a behavior that I have

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to address to correct as a cat rescuer.

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And not that I'm not willing to

do it, but that's something that

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is very, very time-consuming.

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So if we can guide you to do it, then

the whole situation might be solved.

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But a lot of the times I find that they're

just not open to that, and so I think it's

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really good knowing how to reach people

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Matt: Yeah, to go with

your example, right?

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A person calls.

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They're obviously calling 'cause they're

extremely frustrated at that moment, and

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they're probably, even if you had the time

to okay, let me stop what I'm doing and

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see, and this, let's say this person is

willing to, try to resolve the problem,

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you're probably not in a situation

at that moment where you can be like,

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"Oh, I've got 30 minutes to, do this."

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If you're doing rescue, I'm sure

you're doing a million other things.

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So the nice thing with the helpline is

when we're referred the call, and then

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we text and make an a time to talk,

the person usually, when we're speaking

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to them is not quite in that kind of

perhaps frantic state or just, very upset

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state where they're actually, making

the call to try to give up their cat.

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One thing we ask shelters, and , it's

proved very successful is so if somebody

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is prepared to surrender their cat

because of a behavior issue we advise

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shelters to ask the question if the

behavior issue could be resolved,

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would you like to keep the cat?"

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And that's-- subtle, but that's often

a better question than let's say

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we have somebody who can help you.

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Do you wanna keep your cat?"

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'Cause at that point, they

may not wanna keep their cat.

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But if it's framed in terms of if

the behavior issue was resolved,

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would you wanna keep your cat," often

people will say yes, and that's an

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in for then the shelter personnel

to say great, we have a resource.

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It's free, and they'll contact

you within 24 to 48 hours and

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hopefully resolve the problem."

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Dixie: So how many people have you

helped so far since you started in March?

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Matt: We've had about 75 cases.

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Probably roughly a quarter have

been resolved successfully.

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There's a number that are just the

nature of it are still in process.

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The volunteers are trained to,

follow up until the case is resolved.

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So there's a lot of cases we have

right now where progress is being

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made, but we're not 100% comfortable

saying, "Okay, this is a closed case."

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We wanna make sure that, the cat has

gone, for example, a month without

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avoiding the litter box, or, the

two cats have gone a number of weeks

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without any real negative interactions.

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So it…

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typically , an average case might

be a month or two before we,

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really feel like it's resolved.

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And of course, there's some cases

where, you know, fortunately, they're

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relatively few, but, possibly the

behavior issue has gone on for so

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long that it's a pretty intractable

problem, and it's going to take a lot

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more patience than, let's say the cat

owner is prepared to give at the time.

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Or it's, the person is looking for help,

but the situation, en- entails more work

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on their part than they may wanna do.

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We're also prepared.

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The volunteers are trained to

deal with this not every case is

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successful, although certainly the,

I would say, the large majority are.

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Just also dealing with sometimes

some disappointment and not every

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case is resolved as we would want it.

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Dixie: And what are the

top behavior issues?

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Matt: Yeah.

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The top behavior issues avoiding the

litter box is probably number one.

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Inter- inner cat issues, whether it's, a

new cat being introduced or just ongoing

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tension amongst cats, or sometimes

redirected aggression where two cats got

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along fine, and then there's something

frightened one or more of the cats,

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and they redirected their agitation on

the other cat, and it became a problem.

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And then an overarching issue, which

sometimes is a problem in and of itself,

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and sometimes just is contributing to the

problem, is the understimulation of cats.

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Just cats whose energy needs are

not being met, and that can lead to

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behavior issues such as they're trying

to dart out the door 'cause they're

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bored or they're vocalizing at night

or waking their person up early.

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I had a interesting case yesterday

with, again a cat owner who did

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rescues, had cats, for decades.

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And this is the first time that one

cat was seemingly bullying the other

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cat, and it really was a matter of

this one cat who was younger than

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the resident cat just his energy

needs were just not being met at all.

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So the, the cat was viewing the older

cat as a play object essentially.

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And it can be when you're witnessing

that, it often seems that the cat

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who is being play aggressive with the

other cat is being outright aggressive.

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But that's usually not the case,

especially if they're spay or neuter.

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Sometimes there's territorial issues and

sometimes there's cats who, simply cannot

297

: 00:17:09

live with other cats, but those are rare.

298

: 00:17:11

Much of the time when there's intercat

issues there's a component where, one

299

: 00:17:16

cat is under-stimulated and is viewing

the other cat as a play object which

300

: 00:17:20

can be very stressful to the other cat.

301

: 00:17:22

And that's not across the board.

302

: 00:17:23

Of course, there are just genuine

times where two cats are having, issues

303

: 00:17:27

because of territorial issues or redirect

aggression or something like that.

304

: 00:17:32

But and in kind of a common thread

amongst a lot of our cases is just cats

305

: 00:17:38

who are not getting enough play time and

it's leading to to be unwanted behaviors

306

: 00:17:44

Dixie: I know when it comes to

having a multi-cat household, most

307

: 00:17:47

people at one point or another have

had issues with the litter box.

308

: 00:17:52

Of course, if somebody comes up to

me and mentions it, the first thing

309

: 00:17:55

I'm always gonna tell them is, "Go

get your cat to the vet," 'cause

310

: 00:17:58

that's the number one priority.

311

: 00:17:59

You have to make sure

it's not a medical issue.

312

: 00:18:03

But when it comes to actually solving

a problem that is behavioral, can

313

: 00:18:07

you give us some tips on how you

would walk a person through that?

314

: 00:18:15

Matt: Yeah.

315

: 00:18:15

So I'm glad you mentioned that.

316

: 00:18:17

One, one big part of cat behavior

counseling is being very practical,

317

: 00:18:22

and We always need to be very thorough

and give the best advice possible

318

: 00:18:26

and this goes back to forging a

connection with the cat owner.

319

: 00:18:30

We wanna be mindful of people's

time limitations, of their

320

: 00:18:33

financial limitations or

potential financial limitations.

321

: 00:18:37

So yes, when typically the kind of rule

of thumb is if there's a litter box

322

: 00:18:42

issue let's get the cat to the vet first.

323

: 00:18:45

What I've found is, and certainly if it

seems like in just talking to the person,

324

: 00:18:49

the cat is having a medical issue, is

seems out of sorts is not eating as

325

: 00:18:54

much, is vocalizing when eliminating

there's 30 other things I can mention.

326

: 00:19:00

But if there's, a clear sign that

this cat is in discomfort or there's

327

: 00:19:04

a medical issue, of course we first

and foremost refer to the vet.

328

: 00:19:08

However, there's many cases where In

talking to the person at length it seems

329

: 00:19:13

that it's probably not a medical issue.

330

: 00:19:16

Or if it is a medical issue, the cat

certainly does not appear in any distress.

331

: 00:19:21

So for that reason, and again, if we're

talking about a person who's calling and

332

: 00:19:24

they're at their wit's end and they're

not even sure they wanna keep the cat.

333

: 00:19:28

If they're told you first gotta go to

the vet," first of all, it could be very

334

: 00:19:31

stressful, as we know, getting cats into

a carrier and getting them to the vet.

335

: 00:19:35

You know, there's money, a lot, fair

amount of money spent at a vet and,

336

: 00:19:39

the cat owner may not have that or

may not wanna spend that right away.

337

: 00:19:42

So we look at the full picture

and of course, refer to the vet

338

: 00:19:48

first if it seems necessary.

339

: 00:19:49

But often we'll try other tactics and

other strategies to see if we can resolve

340

: 00:19:54

the problem which is often the case.

341

: 00:19:56

And of course, if not, and we think, a

medical issue may be the reason and we've

342

: 00:20:01

ruled out others, we'll refer to the vet.

343

: 00:20:03

But again, wanna make clear that if

there's any sign of, discomfort or cause

344

: 00:20:08

to think this cat is having a medical

issue, we do refer first and foremost.

345

: 00:20:13

So I have a framework called

the Four Reasons Cats Avoid

346

: 00:20:17

the Litter Box framework.

347

: 00:20:19

Very straightforward name.

348

: 00:20:21

And This is talked about in the Cat

Behavior Counseling course and the

349

: 00:20:23

Guide to Cat Behavior Counseling.

350

: 00:20:25

But essentially, , there are four

reasons cats avoid the litter box.

351

: 00:20:29

There are medical reasons, and into that

I lump if a cat's not spayed or neutered.

352

: 00:20:34

There can be a problem with

the litter box setup itself.

353

: 00:20:38

There could be an environmental stressor

causing the cat to avoid the litter box.

354

: 00:20:43

And there can be cat-- issues amongst cats

or other animals in the home where one

355

: 00:20:48

cat, let's say, does not feel comfortable

going into the litter box for whatever

356

: 00:20:51

reason with the other animals in the home.

357

: 00:20:54

Those are not mutually exclusive reasons.

358

: 00:20:56

It could be a cat's avoiding the box

for, it would be unlikely, but for

359

: 00:21:00

all four of those reasons, or for

one, two, or three of those reasons.

360

: 00:21:04

But it's a very useful framework

to assess litter box cases.

361

: 00:21:09

And one of the reasons I developed

this, both the Guide to Cat Behavior

362

: 00:21:13

Counseling and the the Cat Behavior

Counseling course, is because in my

363

: 00:21:18

experience, and I was certainly guilty

of this before I became a trained cat

364

: 00:21:21

behaviorist, was a lot of the times

it's like throwing advice against the

365

: 00:21:27

wall and seeing if anything sticks.

366

: 00:21:29

So it'll be like, "My cat's

avoiding the litter box."

367

: 00:21:31

I'm like have you tried adding a box?

368

: 00:21:33

Have you tried , this litter?

369

: 00:21:34

Have you tried Feliway?

370

: 00:21:35

Have you tried I don't know, the-"

varying the depth of the litter.

371

: 00:21:40

All of which can be very good advice, but

it, for us, we do a systematic study in

372

: 00:21:46

talking to the person of what's going on

and then provide our advice accordingly.

373

: 00:21:51

So this framework is very good

in both formulating the questions

374

: 00:21:57

we ask and then guiding our

assessment and guiding our advice.

375

: 00:22:02

And the volunteers are trained to do that.

376

: 00:22:04

And every single cat, every single

litter box case I do the exact same

377

: 00:22:09

thing in, trying to determine or rule

out if it's a medical issue, is it

378

: 00:22:13

a problem with the litter box setup?

379

: 00:22:15

Is there some kind of environmental

stressor causing this issue and/or

380

: 00:22:19

is there an issue amongst cats

or other animals in the household

381

: 00:22:22

leading one or more to avoid the box?

382

: 00:22:24

So when it's viewed in those terms in that

framework, what often seems like a mystery

383

: 00:22:30

or just seems too overwhelming, like

where do I even begin to try to figure

384

: 00:22:34

this out becomes much more manageable.

385

: 00:22:37

And when I explain it to the cat owner,

much as I just explained it now, and

386

: 00:22:41

they're like, "Oh, that makes sense."

387

: 00:22:42

And it just provides a really easy means

to try to figure out what's going on.

388

: 00:22:49

Dixie: And what about the cat

that has one of those urinary

389

: 00:22:52

complexes, it's FLUTD or FIC,.

390

: 00:22:57

Do your tips help those cats as well?

391

: 00:23:00

Because I know a lot of the times with

those cats, they'll go outside of the

392

: 00:23:03

box and they find weird places to, go,

like a blanket, a towel, your clothes, or

393

: 00:23:09

sometimes even the sofa, because it's more

so that they're trying to avoid the litter

394

: 00:23:13

box 'cause , they associate it with pain.

395

: 00:23:16

Matt: The first step would be to go

to the vet to, to get diagnostics and

396

: 00:23:21

hopefully determine what's going on

and get the appropriate medication.

397

: 00:23:25

There are cases, like there's something

called idiopathic cystitis, which

398

: 00:23:28

basically is the cat is experiencing

discomfort when eliminating and it's

399

: 00:23:34

unclear as to why it's happening.

400

: 00:23:36

There's no obvious source, there's

no obvious medical s- reason, and

401

: 00:23:39

there's no obvious behavioral reason.

402

: 00:23:42

And those can be tricky because often

the cat will s- sporadically eliminate

403

: 00:23:49

around the home, and sometimes there'll

be days or weeks where there's no issue

404

: 00:23:52

at all, and then all of a sudden there'll

be days or weeks where it's a big issue.

405

: 00:23:55

So a lot of that is, first of

all, , that's where kind of the

406

: 00:23:58

cat behavior counseling, the

counseling aspect comes into it.

407

: 00:24:01

Sometimes-- and I've had cases

where sometimes the case was

408

: 00:24:04

not actually entirely resolved.

409

: 00:24:07

It was just, let's say, a very

complicated case and, the cat is

410

: 00:24:10

still maybe not eliminating 10

times a month around the home.

411

: 00:24:15

Maybe it's down to two or three, but

it's still two or three times the

412

: 00:24:18

cat's eliminating around the house.

413

: 00:24:20

But the person in talking to them now

has somebody they can really talk to and

414

: 00:24:24

an ally, and they feel supported, and

they feel validated in their frustration.

415

: 00:24:29

'Cause a lot of times people, cat owners,

they may not have other people to talk

416

: 00:24:33

to who really understand, their bond with

their cat and their frustration with this.

417

: 00:24:37

And sometimes even, people who are living

in the household with the primary cat

418

: 00:24:41

owner are either not that interested

in the cat or very much want the cat

419

: 00:24:45

to leave if there's a behavior issue.

420

: 00:24:47

It's hard to overemphasize the

importance of establishing just a

421

: 00:24:50

strong connection with the person we're

talking to on, on the other end of

422

: 00:24:53

the phone and being an ally for them.

423

: 00:24:56

And that sometimes you can almost feel

through the phone the relief of having

424

: 00:25:01

somebody they can talk to about this

and somebody who's gonna support them.

425

: 00:25:04

So there's that, and of course,

that doesn't in and of itself

426

: 00:25:09

solve the problem, but it's

an important component to it.

427

: 00:25:12

But a lot of times, let's say with

idiopathic cystitis, like stress can

428

: 00:25:15

be a certainly a trigger for that.

429

: 00:25:18

So we, talk about ways to decrease

the cat's stress, to increase

430

: 00:25:22

playtime, which is a great way

to decrease the cat's stress.

431

: 00:25:25

Sometimes there's supplements.

432

: 00:25:26

There's a clinically proven supplement

called L-theanine, which is actually

433

: 00:25:31

used for humans to, to reduce stress, but

is also known to reduce stress in cats.

434

: 00:25:36

So there's various, advice we can give

people to try to help in these situations.

435

: 00:25:40

But certainly if, if there's a medical

issue the first step is the vet, and

436

: 00:25:44

hopefully they're able to determine the

medication needed to resolve the problem.

437

: 00:25:49

Dixie: This is always something

I hear from potential adopters.

438

: 00:25:53

A lot of adopters are always

looking to adopt females because

439

: 00:25:56

they always say the males spray.

440

: 00:25:57

And I always laugh, of course, because

all the cats and kittens that we adopt

441

: 00:26:02

out, they're all spayed and neutered.

442

: 00:26:04

We don't let them go out without

first being spayed or neutered, and

443

: 00:26:06

the only time I ever had an issue

with a cat spraying, it was a female.

444

: 00:26:11

She was spayed, and I got her

when she was a bottle baby.

445

: 00:26:14

So that's one thing I always

laugh about because I'm like,

446

: 00:26:17

"The female cats spray, too."

447

: 00:26:19

So what is something that you

would tell people or something

448

: 00:26:23

that people could do for spraying?

449

: 00:26:25

Say they get a kitten and it's

fine, and then all of a sudden they

450

: 00:26:28

start spraying all over the house.

451

: 00:26:31

Matt: Assuming they're spay or neutered,

as you said, a female spayed cat can

452

: 00:26:34

spray, a male neutered cat can spray.

453

: 00:26:37

Of course, if they're intact, especially

the males are much more likely to spray.

454

: 00:26:41

So it's a matter of, if they're

spraying there's some kind of

455

: 00:26:44

environmental stressor going on there.

456

: 00:26:47

So we talk about ways to

either eliminate that stress.

457

: 00:26:51

So sometimes it can be They had a

case where th-there were several

458

: 00:26:54

cats in the home who were spraying

on the front and back door which is

459

: 00:26:59

like classic sign of spraying when

there's outdoor animals around.

460

: 00:27:03

So you know, There can be ad-advice

given anywhere from there are outdoor

461

: 00:27:08

cat deterrents so that the cats

are not right by your front door.

462

: 00:27:12

There's ways to deter the cats from, let's

say, going right near the front door.

463

: 00:27:17

So for example, like one method which

is pretty simple is if you can take

464

: 00:27:22

like a car a car mat has like little

spikes on the bottom of it to, so

465

: 00:27:26

it sticks to the carpet in the car.

466

: 00:27:28

So there's various items like

that, which cats, they don't like

467

: 00:27:31

walking on little sharp objects.

468

: 00:27:33

It doesn't do them any harm or

anything, but that's a good way to

469

: 00:27:36

deter a cat, like from, let's say,

going , immediately to the front

470

: 00:27:39

door 'cause they just can't access

it if there's something in their way.

471

: 00:27:43

So there can be deterrents like that.

472

: 00:27:45

A lot of times it's a matter of reducing

the cat's stress through interactive play.

473

: 00:27:50

Ensuring that they're on a routine and

they-- which can help a lot with stress.

474

: 00:27:54

So there's a variety of different

measures we can take with a cat

475

: 00:27:58

who's spraying and, and it sometimes

can be medically related as well.

476

: 00:28:03

But typically there's a stressor, and

it's a matter of either identifying

477

: 00:28:06

the stressor and certainly, providing

advice so that stress is reduced.

478

: 00:28:10

Dixie: When you tell these people to use

these deterrents, is that something that

479

: 00:28:14

would have to be in place permanently,

or is that just like a temporary thing

480

: 00:28:18

until you get the cat out of the behavior?

481

: 00:28:22

Matt: A lot of times the cats are

h-habituated to the behavior, and

482

: 00:28:25

then over time it can be, removed.

483

: 00:28:28

And that's also, again, why we talk

about the importance of follow-up.

484

: 00:28:31

If the cats have been spraying on the,

the front and back door for months

485

: 00:28:35

as they had in this case, it's not

likely to just be resolved overnight.

486

: 00:28:39

So you know, typically with that

kind of case, I'd want the cats

487

: 00:28:42

not to have sprayed for at least a

month before removing the deterrent.

488

: 00:28:47

But, each case is unique.

489

: 00:28:49

But again, that's why the counseling

aspect is so important because

490

: 00:28:52

the follow-up is just essential.

491

: 00:28:54

So right now, we have a number

of pending cases which seemingly

492

: 00:28:56

are, they're resolving, but w-

we need to give it a little more

493

: 00:29:00

time to ensure that's the case.

494

: 00:29:02

Dixie: Let's say somebody sends you

an email with a behavior problem.

495

: 00:29:06

How much time do you tell them

that they're gonna have to devote

496

: 00:29:10

initially to solve this problem?

497

: 00:29:13

I know each case is different,

but what is an average?

498

: 00:29:17

Matt: The bulk of the time that they'll

have to spend is , if they need to do

499

: 00:29:21

more interactive play with the cat.

500

: 00:29:23

So whether it's a matter of one cat who's

bullying another cat, or one cat who's

501

: 00:29:27

showing some play aggression to people

like swatting at their legs or, not in

502

: 00:29:32

aggression as we think of it, but more

just they have all this energy to burn.

503

: 00:29:36

So a lot of times in those cases the

cat really does need three 15-minute

504

: 00:29:41

play sessions a day, and then each

play session is followed by a meal, and

505

: 00:29:44

then you have a cat who, tends to be

relaxed in between the play sessions.

506

: 00:29:49

So in those cases, we'll talk

to the person and say, ideally,

507

: 00:29:52

you could spend three 15-minute

play sessions with your cat.

508

: 00:29:56

Often what I'll say, 'cause that can

be overwhelming if they've not been

509

: 00:29:59

spending any time I'll say, you can

multitask when you're doing it, so you

510

: 00:30:03

could be on the phone while you're,

using a laser light with your cat or a

511

: 00:30:06

fishing rod toy or something like that.

512

: 00:30:09

And also like with the deterrent I'll say

to people like, "Look we just wanna figure

513

: 00:30:14

out how much energy your cat has and what

it's gonna take to use up that energy

514

: 00:30:19

so that the behavior issue resolves.

515

: 00:30:21

And, what I'm asking you to do is if you

can for, at least several days in a row,

516

: 00:30:27

try three 15-minute play sessions a day.

517

: 00:30:31

Let's see what happens.

518

: 00:30:32

Assuming the behavior gets better,

then of course, it's up to you to

519

: 00:30:35

decide how much time each day you

wanna spend, but at least we know,

520

: 00:30:40

okay, this is what this cat needs."

521

: 00:30:41

And in some cases the

cat needs more than…

522

: 00:30:43

it's unusual, but sometimes cats need

four or five play sessions a day.

523

: 00:30:48

We always frame it so it's not

overwhelming to the person.

524

: 00:30:51

So to answer your question, those cases

would be where, upwards of 45 minutes a

525

: 00:30:56

day the person would spend with their cat.

526

: 00:30:58

But we also frame it as don't think of

this as forever, especially with a person

527

: 00:31:02

who's thinking of giving their cat, we

don't want them to think okay, now they've

528

: 00:31:05

got a 45-minute commitment every day.

529

: 00:31:07

Let's just see if it's gonna

resolve the problem, and then

530

: 00:31:09

we can talk about next steps.

531

: 00:31:11

Similarly with a let's say a cat's peeing

on a couch routinely or peeing near a

532

: 00:31:16

window sill or something and it seems

like the cat really has a preference

533

: 00:31:20

for the living room to eliminate

in and there's no litter box there.

534

: 00:31:24

And a lot of times people

do not understandably want a

535

: 00:31:26

litter box in their living room.

536

: 00:31:27

But if we think that will help to

resolve the problem, we'll say to

537

: 00:31:31

the person, "Look, let's try it.

538

: 00:31:32

Let's see if it works.

539

: 00:31:33

It's certainly easier scooping a

litter box in your living room than to

540

: 00:31:37

cleaning a couch that's been peed on.

541

: 00:31:39

But let's see if it works, and if it

works, then we can talk about, whether

542

: 00:31:42

you feel comfortable enough to keeping

the litter box in the living room.

543

: 00:31:46

But what we found is in those cases when

it comes to playing with the cat once

544

: 00:31:50

the behavior issue is resolved because

they're adequately playing with their

545

: 00:31:54

cat or they've put the litter box where

it needs to be I'd say 90% of the time

546

: 00:31:58

the cat owner is in a different state

of mind and they're like, "Yeah I can

547

: 00:32:00

deal with the litter box in the living

room," or, "It's really not too bad to

548

: 00:32:04

play with this cat three times a day."

549

: 00:32:06

So we try to make it so

it's not overwhelming.

550

: 00:32:09

And that also goes to

this idea of practicality.

551

: 00:32:12

I had a call yesterday where the

cat had been the mother's cat.

552

: 00:32:16

The mother unfortunately

passed away recently.

553

: 00:32:20

The person, seemed like a very

decent person, but they were not

554

: 00:32:22

tremendously bonded to this cat,

and they were not going to do a

555

: 00:32:26

tremendous amount to, of work.

556

: 00:32:28

This cat was avoiding the litter box.

557

: 00:32:30

Maybe there was 10 pieces of advice I

could have given, but I chose, let's

558

: 00:32:34

say, the top four or five I thought were

really going to be the most effective

559

: 00:32:39

and which he was actually gonna do.

560

: 00:32:40

'Cause if I gave, if I inundated him with

advice, I knew it was not gonna happen.

561

: 00:32:44

He just was not in the place where he

was going to make this a big commitment.

562

: 00:32:49

So there, there's just this real

practical component to it which again

563

: 00:32:53

just goes back to, forging a really good

connection with the person on the phone.

564

: 00:32:57

Dixie: I really wanna thank you

again for having this resource.

565

: 00:33:00

It's just such an important thing to have.

566

: 00:33:03

I know when I get those calls or messages

from people, I will definitely refer

567

: 00:33:07

them to you, and I'm gonna include

your links in the show notes as well

568

: 00:33:12

to your self-paced online course and

your guide to cat behavior counseling

569

: 00:33:19

Matt: And one other thing, if you

don't mind, if I could just mention as

570

: 00:33:21

the helpline grows, we're definitely

in need of more volunteers, and the

571

: 00:33:26

nice thing about being a volunteer is

you really don't need any experience.

572

: 00:33:30

You'll go through a significant amount

of training to get to the point where

573

: 00:33:33

you can handle cases on the phone.

574

: 00:33:36

And it's an extremely rewarding and

high impact experience knowing that

575

: 00:33:42

you're keeping cats in their homes.

576

: 00:33:44

So if anybody is interested in potentially

volunteering all you have to have is a

577

: 00:33:49

a love for cats and a love for people

and wanting to keep them together.

578

: 00:33:53

You can also email me at

[email protected]

579

: 00:33:56

and I can give you the information.

580

: 00:33:58

Dixie: and do you have a website as well?

581

: 00:34:00

Matt: So we are working on our website.

582

: 00:34:03

We're actually a program of an animal

sanctuary called Safe Haven Farm

583

: 00:34:08

Sanctuary, which is in Upstate New York.

584

: 00:34:11

We're gonna have a page on

their website, which their web

585

: 00:34:15

developer is soon to have up.

586

: 00:34:17

But it's safehavenfarmsanctuary.org

587

: 00:34:20

is the organization that ultimately

is sponsoring this program.

588

: 00:34:24

But our website should be up

there hopefully within a week.

589

: 00:34:26

I mean our webpage.

590

: 00:34:28

Dixie: Thank you so much for taking

the time to go over this with me.

591

: 00:34:31

I really appreciate it

592

: 00:34:33

Matt: yeah.

593

: 00:34:34

Oh, no problem.

594

: 00:34:35

Thanks so much for having me.

595

: 00:34:36

Much appreciated.