Transcripts
Today's guest is someone whose work hits close to
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home for me as a cat rescuer.
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I'm talking with Matt Wildman from
the National Cat Behavior Helpline,
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the place people turn when they're
overwhelmed, confused, or desperate
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to keep their cats in their homes.
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I know firsthand how critical
that kind of support is, and
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Matt is one of the voices on the other end
helping prevent surrenders, solve behavior
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problems, and keep families together.
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I'm grateful to have him here today to
talk about the hotline's impact and hear
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some of the real stories behind the calls
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Hi, Matt.
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Thank you so much for coming on the show.
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Matt: Oh, yes.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm very excited to be here.
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Dixie: I'm very excited about this
too because as a cat rescuer, this is
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something that I'm very passionate about.
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I think it is an absolutely wonderful
resource for people because there
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are people that have cats that
have major behavior problems.
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They don't know what to do and so they
think about surrendering their cats.
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So I love that this is there to
help those people and also for
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people who are new to cats as well.
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Matt: Exactly.
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Dixie: So tell me how you got started
and how you came up with the idea for
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the National Cat Behavior Helpline.
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Matt: Okay, sure.
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Let's see.
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So back in 2010, I was working with a
surrender prevention program under the
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Humane Society of the United States,
which is now Humane World for Animals.
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And one of the services that this
program offered people was we had
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a certified cat behavior consultant
who, for free, would assist people
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with cat behavior challenges.
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And I didn't know anything
about cats at that point.
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I'd been around cats, but I
didn't know anything about their
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behavior, but I was very intrigued.
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Her name is Beth Adelman.
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She's wonderful, and she's a
certified cat behavior consultant.
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And for three years, I was mentored
by her, and I read everything
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I could and and then became a
cat behaviorist in my own right.
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Previously, I had been a teacher
for eight years at a Brooklyn public
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high school, and I say that because
what I was able to do once-- I worked
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for the Humane Society of the United
States, now Humane World for Animals.
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But I loved teaching, and what I was
able to do is utilize that teaching.
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I created a course this is back
in 2013, and it lasted to 2016.
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And the course was meant for shelter
personnel to become essentially
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trained cat behavior counselors
to assist their own shelters.
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And about 250 shelter personnel
went through the course and it was,
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very successful in that regard.
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But what we found is that just,
the nature of animal sheltering,
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there's a fair amount of turnover.
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It's a very high-stress job.
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And just, the nature of life,
people come and go from jobs.
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And what was happening was the shelters,
would have somebody who was trained
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to, to handle cat behavior cases,
whether it was from fosters or adopters
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or members of the general public who
potentially would surrender their cats.
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But once that person left, then the
shelter was left without a resource.
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It'd always been in the back of my head
to start a national helpline because in a
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way, when it comes to surrender prevention
cat behavior counseling is low-hanging
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fruit in that unlike dog training, where
you really need to be with the dog and
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be with the owner and working kind of
hand-in-hand with them, with cat behavior
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counseling, you could do it on the phone.
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In almost all cases it can be
done, it's can be phone-based.
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And it requires, no funding
or anything of that sort.
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So it's in a way very impactful with few,
if any, resources needed other than time.
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Anyway, I'm just in a life situation now
where I had time to develop this helpline.
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We launched it in March.
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We first began reaching out to shelters
and rescues, just cold contacts saying,
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"Hey, we have this helpline, it's free.
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And we, you're welcome to
refer any cases you have."
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Again, whether they're fosters recent
adopters, or people calling from the
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public who are potentially surrendering
their cats because of a behavior issue.
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So we've been doing it since March.
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It's been really successful in
that we have about 40 shelters at
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this point who are sending us calls
or have agreed to send us calls.
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And we have five trained cat
behavior counselors and and myself,
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and in the last couple months,
we've handled about 75 cases or so.
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And our goal is to ultimately
handle thousands and to have every
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shelter referring cases to us,
as well as just by word of mouth.
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And to have ideally a couple
dozen trained cat behavior
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counselors staffing this helpline.
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So it's coming together, very nicely
and we're very excited moving forward.
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Dixie: Where did you do your
training to get certified?
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Matt: There's various
ways to become certified.
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For example, there's one called the
International Association of Animal
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Behavior Consultants, the IAABC.
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I have not gone through
that because I never…
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I've always done this - other than when I
worked for Humane World for Animals where
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they just paid me a salary for this work.
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I've never wanted to, charge
anybody for giving, offering advice.
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So for that reason, there just was
never really a reason for me to
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go and get officially certified.
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It requires just, a variety of coursework
and doing a number of case studies, all
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of which, I've done probably tenfold,
but there just was never real reason
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for me to go through that route.
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It just happened a little bit, organically
in that I was, I was mentored for
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three years by a certified cat behavior
consultant and given every book, I
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could possibly read on cat behavior.
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And then at this point, I've just done
thousands of cases there didn't seem
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a reason to get certified through that
route because it just isn't necessary
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for what for where I am at this moment.
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Dixie: How does the helpline work?
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Are you available certain hours?
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Do people call and leave a message?
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Matt: So we have a email address.
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It's [email protected].
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And what we do is through word of mouth
at this point, like we have a Facebook
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page, some people are reaching out just
individuals or members of the public.
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But primarily it's through
shelters and rescues.
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So a shelter or rescue will let's
just say a recent adopter has
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contacted them and said, "The cats
are hiding and I can't find them."
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So what they do is they just provide us
with the adopter's contact information a
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very bri- brief blurb about what the issue
is just so we know what it is going in.
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And and then we will first text the
cat owner to just arrange a time
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to speak, and then within 48 hours
we'll have a phone call with them.
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And so at least at this point,
there's no phone number.
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It's just we're emailed and
then we utilize our personal
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cell phones to call people.
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Dixie: How many volunteers
do you have helping you?
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Matt: So we have five at the moment.
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Over the past two years, I developed
a second a new or pretty much a
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revised cat behavior counseling
course for Humane World for Animals.
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So it's a self-paced online course.
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It's probably about 20
hours worth of work.
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So these are our current volunteers
who are just an amazing group.
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They either have previously took the
course and they've been doing cat behavior
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counseling, so they are very experienced.
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And then we have a couple volunteers
who recently took the course.
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And in addition to taking the
course, there's a number of case
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studies that the volunteers have
to do, and then we review all them.
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And just to make sure that, by the
time they're handling cases, they,
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have all the knowledge and the skills
they need to handle these cases.
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And of course I'm there to support our
volunteers if there's any particularly
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challenging cases where, you know, if they
wanna review and, if there are, challenges
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in making an assessment or with the advice
to offer we collaborate a lot on that.
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Dixie: Is that course available to anybody
and is there a charge for that course?
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Matt: No, it's a free course.
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Yeah, it's available to anyone.
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Anyone can take the course.
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, You're not in any way committing
yourself to volunteer for the helpline.
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It's just if somebody is interested in
volunteering for the helpline, the first
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step is that they take that course.
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And if you just go to I
believe it's humanepro.org
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there's information about the Cat
Behavior Counseling course, or you can
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just Google Cat Behavior Counseling
course Humane World, and it'll come up.
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Dixie: Yeah, 'cause I think it's
a great resource just for people
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involved in cat rescue in general.
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That's a great thing to have.
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I mean, I've been doing cat rescue
for about 20 years and I'm pretty good
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with a lot of behavioral things, but
then there are still things that come
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up for me that are quite challenging
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Matt: Oh, for sure.
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Yeah.
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I spoke to somebody yesterday
who, has had many cats.
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She was just an older woman and she'd
had many cats throughout her life and
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had done rescue and this was the first
time that she ever had a case where just
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two cats were not getting along at all.
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But we get that a lot where people
have had cats for years and,
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almost inevitably at some point
there's gonna be a behavior issue.
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So we're there as needed.
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There is another resource that I also
created which is it's not quite as
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intensive as the Cat Behavior Counseling
course but still extremely comprehensive.
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It's called The Guide to
Cat Behavior Counseling.
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It's about a 45 or 50-page document.
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I created it and it's published
by Humane World for Animals,
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and that's a free guide.
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You can download it.
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So if you just Google Guide to Cat
Behavior Counseling, that'll come up
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and it's a very practical guide for how
to handle pretty much any cat behavior
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case that may come up or situation
that a person might be dealing with.
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Dixie: Yeah, that's great.
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I'm gonna go check out
both of them actually.
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Like I said, I've been doing this a long
time, but I still don't know everything,
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so it's always good to get new information
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Matt: Yeah.
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No, absolutely.
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What we find also in this helpline which,
and actually what the course and the
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guide to a lesser extent dis-discusses
is the counseling aspect of cat behavior
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counseling is extremely important.
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So of course, we need the
knowledge and the skills and
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awareness of how, cats behave.
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But almost as important is how to
talk to somebody who's at their wit's
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end with their cat and ex-extremely
frustrated, let's say, with a cat peeing
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all over the house or just very upset
with two cats, who are consistently
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fighting or having, not getting along.
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And so a lot of it is helping people get
out of that crisis mode that they're in.
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Reminding them of their love for
their cat giving them some hope that
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this can be resolved, and really
presenting ourselves as an ally.
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So it's not just like a person
calls and we just ask a bunch of
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questions and, assess and then advise.
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There's a real interpersonal
component to it.
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And that's very important also because One
of the reasons we, feel that a helpline
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is very important and it's a really
valuable resource to the animal sheltering
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world is that it does take time.
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The first initial phone call
might be anywhere from like 25
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to 30 minutes, sometimes longer.
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But follow-up calls are
always, almost always needed.
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And that's why it's so important to
establish a good relationship with
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the the cat owner so that they feel
comfortable reaching out and saying, "Hey
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we're making progress, but we're not all
there yet," or, "I did all your advice
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and it seems there's still an issue, so
let's, let's continue to problem solve."
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Or in some cases, , the person just
has not taken any of the advice
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just because, let's say, life got
in the way and they've, they were in
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crisis mode, they're no longer in it.
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And we just are there to gently
encourage people to implement the
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advice so that, the problem resolves.
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I worked at a s- several animal
shelters and very familiar with just the
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intensity and the amount of work, and
it's, consistently putting out fires.
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And there's really typically not the
time for a shelter staff person, whoever
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they may be to spend half an hour
on the phone and then make follow-up
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calls and do all that work in addition
to everything else they have to do.
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So the helpline is really there to
be this, kind of companion resource
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to what,, to support animal shelters.
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Dixie: From my personal experience,
if somebody contacts me about
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rehoming a cat, of course, I'm gonna
try to provide all the information
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to get them to keep the cat.
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And you can try to be as empathetic
as possible, and I find that they
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still try to shut you down right away.
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They might be wanting to give you a cat
that's peeing all over the house, and
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it's kind of like, well, if I take that
cat, then that's a behavior that I have
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to address to correct as a cat rescuer.
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And not that I'm not willing to
do it, but that's something that
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is very, very time-consuming.
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So if we can guide you to do it, then
the whole situation might be solved.
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But a lot of the times I find that they're
just not open to that, and so I think it's
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really good knowing how to reach people
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Matt: Yeah, to go with
your example, right?
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A person calls.
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They're obviously calling 'cause they're
extremely frustrated at that moment, and
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they're probably, even if you had the time
to okay, let me stop what I'm doing and
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see, and this, let's say this person is
willing to, try to resolve the problem,
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you're probably not in a situation
at that moment where you can be like,
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"Oh, I've got 30 minutes to, do this."
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If you're doing rescue, I'm sure
you're doing a million other things.
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So the nice thing with the helpline is
when we're referred the call, and then
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we text and make an a time to talk,
the person usually, when we're speaking
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to them is not quite in that kind of
perhaps frantic state or just, very upset
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state where they're actually, making
the call to try to give up their cat.
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One thing we ask shelters, and , it's
proved very successful is so if somebody
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is prepared to surrender their cat
because of a behavior issue we advise
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shelters to ask the question if the
behavior issue could be resolved,
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would you like to keep the cat?"
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And that's-- subtle, but that's often
a better question than let's say
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we have somebody who can help you.
244
00:13:49,789 --> 00:13:50,739
Do you wanna keep your cat?"
245
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'Cause at that point, they
may not wanna keep their cat.
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But if it's framed in terms of if
the behavior issue was resolved,
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would you wanna keep your cat," often
people will say yes, and that's an
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in for then the shelter personnel
to say great, we have a resource.
249
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It's free, and they'll contact
you within 24 to 48 hours and
250
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hopefully resolve the problem."
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Dixie: So how many people have you
helped so far since you started in March?
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Matt: We've had about 75 cases.
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Probably roughly a quarter have
been resolved successfully.
254
00:14:22,427 --> 00:14:26,077
There's a number that are just the
nature of it are still in process.
255
00:14:26,507 --> 00:14:30,347
The volunteers are trained to,
follow up until the case is resolved.
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00:14:30,347 --> 00:14:33,877
So there's a lot of cases we have
right now where progress is being
257
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made, but we're not 100% comfortable
saying, "Okay, this is a closed case."
258
00:14:37,667 --> 00:14:40,937
We wanna make sure that, the cat has
gone, for example, a month without
259
00:14:40,937 --> 00:14:44,827
avoiding the litter box, or, the
two cats have gone a number of weeks
260
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without any real negative interactions.
261
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So it…
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typically , an average case might
be a month or two before we,
263
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really feel like it's resolved.
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00:14:54,917 --> 00:14:58,487
And of course, there's some cases
where, you know, fortunately, they're
265
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relatively few, but, possibly the
behavior issue has gone on for so
266
00:15:01,557 --> 00:15:04,787
long that it's a pretty intractable
problem, and it's going to take a lot
267
00:15:04,787 --> 00:15:09,227
more patience than, let's say the cat
owner is prepared to give at the time.
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00:15:09,677 --> 00:15:15,737
Or it's, the person is looking for help,
but the situation, en- entails more work
269
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on their part than they may wanna do.
270
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We're also prepared.
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The volunteers are trained to
deal with this not every case is
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successful, although certainly the,
I would say, the large majority are.
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Just also dealing with sometimes
some disappointment and not every
274
00:15:30,527 --> 00:15:32,287
case is resolved as we would want it.
275
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Dixie: And what are the
top behavior issues?
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Matt: Yeah.
277
00:15:37,017 --> 00:15:42,367
The top behavior issues avoiding the
litter box is probably number one.
278
00:15:42,907 --> 00:15:49,647
Inter- inner cat issues, whether it's, a
new cat being introduced or just ongoing
279
00:15:49,647 --> 00:15:54,807
tension amongst cats, or sometimes
redirected aggression where two cats got
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along fine, and then there's something
frightened one or more of the cats,
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00:15:58,827 --> 00:16:04,447
and they redirected their agitation on
the other cat, and it became a problem.
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00:16:04,927 --> 00:16:10,337
And then an overarching issue, which
sometimes is a problem in and of itself,
283
00:16:10,337 --> 00:16:15,127
and sometimes just is contributing to the
problem, is the understimulation of cats.
284
00:16:15,177 --> 00:16:19,167
Just cats whose energy needs are
not being met, and that can lead to
285
00:16:20,165 --> 00:16:22,845
behavior issues such as they're trying
to dart out the door 'cause they're
286
00:16:22,845 --> 00:16:26,975
bored or they're vocalizing at night
or waking their person up early.
287
00:16:27,365 --> 00:16:32,995
I had a interesting case yesterday
with, again a cat owner who did
288
00:16:32,995 --> 00:16:34,935
rescues, had cats, for decades.
289
00:16:35,415 --> 00:16:39,695
And this is the first time that one
cat was seemingly bullying the other
290
00:16:39,695 --> 00:16:43,365
cat, and it really was a matter of
this one cat who was younger than
291
00:16:43,365 --> 00:16:47,225
the resident cat just his energy
needs were just not being met at all.
292
00:16:47,615 --> 00:16:52,625
So the, the cat was viewing the older
cat as a play object essentially.
293
00:16:53,045 --> 00:16:57,955
And it can be when you're witnessing
that, it often seems that the cat
294
00:16:57,955 --> 00:17:02,715
who is being play aggressive with the
other cat is being outright aggressive.
295
00:17:03,055 --> 00:17:05,714
But that's usually not the case,
especially if they're spay or neuter.
296
00:17:05,744 --> 00:17:09,115
Sometimes there's territorial issues and
sometimes there's cats who, simply cannot
297
00:17:09,115 --> 00:17:10,855
live with other cats, but those are rare.
298
00:17:11,285 --> 00:17:16,704
Much of the time when there's intercat
issues there's a component where, one
299
00:17:16,704 --> 00:17:20,345
cat is under-stimulated and is viewing
the other cat as a play object which
300
00:17:20,345 --> 00:17:21,805
can be very stressful to the other cat.
301
00:17:22,224 --> 00:17:23,375
And that's not across the board.
302
00:17:23,375 --> 00:17:27,964
Of course, there are just genuine
times where two cats are having, issues
303
00:17:27,964 --> 00:17:32,345
because of territorial issues or redirect
aggression or something like that.
304
00:17:32,405 --> 00:17:38,115
But and in kind of a common thread
amongst a lot of our cases is just cats
305
00:17:38,115 --> 00:17:42,915
who are not getting enough play time and
it's leading to to be unwanted behaviors
306
00:17:44,341 --> 00:17:47,821
Dixie: I know when it comes to
having a multi-cat household, most
307
00:17:47,841 --> 00:17:51,501
people at one point or another have
had issues with the litter box.
308
00:17:52,261 --> 00:17:55,151
Of course, if somebody comes up to
me and mentions it, the first thing
309
00:17:55,211 --> 00:17:58,421
I'm always gonna tell them is, "Go
get your cat to the vet," 'cause
310
00:17:58,421 --> 00:17:59,661
that's the number one priority.
311
00:17:59,661 --> 00:18:02,001
You have to make sure
it's not a medical issue.
312
00:18:03,361 --> 00:18:07,521
But when it comes to actually solving
a problem that is behavioral, can
313
00:18:07,521 --> 00:18:10,991
you give us some tips on how you
would walk a person through that?
314
00:18:15,451 --> 00:18:15,861
Matt: Yeah.
315
00:18:15,931 --> 00:18:17,381
So I'm glad you mentioned that.
316
00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:22,331
One, one big part of cat behavior
counseling is being very practical,
317
00:18:22,331 --> 00:18:25,591
and We always need to be very thorough
and give the best advice possible
318
00:18:26,051 --> 00:18:30,121
and this goes back to forging a
connection with the cat owner.
319
00:18:30,591 --> 00:18:33,991
We wanna be mindful of people's
time limitations, of their
320
00:18:33,991 --> 00:18:37,511
financial limitations or
potential financial limitations.
321
00:18:37,941 --> 00:18:42,071
So yes, when typically the kind of rule
of thumb is if there's a litter box
322
00:18:42,071 --> 00:18:44,611
issue let's get the cat to the vet first.
323
00:18:45,051 --> 00:18:49,331
What I've found is, and certainly if it
seems like in just talking to the person,
324
00:18:49,331 --> 00:18:54,691
the cat is having a medical issue, is
seems out of sorts is not eating as
325
00:18:54,691 --> 00:19:00,441
much, is vocalizing when eliminating
there's 30 other things I can mention.
326
00:19:00,441 --> 00:19:04,521
But if there's, a clear sign that
this cat is in discomfort or there's
327
00:19:04,611 --> 00:19:07,501
a medical issue, of course we first
and foremost refer to the vet.
328
00:19:08,001 --> 00:19:13,941
However, there's many cases where In
talking to the person at length it seems
329
00:19:13,941 --> 00:19:16,621
that it's probably not a medical issue.
330
00:19:16,651 --> 00:19:20,951
Or if it is a medical issue, the cat
certainly does not appear in any distress.
331
00:19:21,361 --> 00:19:24,831
So for that reason, and again, if we're
talking about a person who's calling and
332
00:19:24,831 --> 00:19:27,511
they're at their wit's end and they're
not even sure they wanna keep the cat.
333
00:19:28,261 --> 00:19:31,831
If they're told you first gotta go to
the vet," first of all, it could be very
334
00:19:31,831 --> 00:19:34,971
stressful, as we know, getting cats into
a carrier and getting them to the vet.
335
00:19:35,461 --> 00:19:38,911
You know, there's money, a lot, fair
amount of money spent at a vet and,
336
00:19:39,301 --> 00:19:42,551
the cat owner may not have that or
may not wanna spend that right away.
337
00:19:42,941 --> 00:19:48,101
So we look at the full picture
and of course, refer to the vet
338
00:19:48,101 --> 00:19:49,551
first if it seems necessary.
339
00:19:49,551 --> 00:19:54,911
But often we'll try other tactics and
other strategies to see if we can resolve
340
00:19:54,911 --> 00:19:56,971
the problem which is often the case.
341
00:19:56,971 --> 00:20:01,351
And of course, if not, and we think, a
medical issue may be the reason and we've
342
00:20:01,351 --> 00:20:03,121
ruled out others, we'll refer to the vet.
343
00:20:03,651 --> 00:20:08,501
But again, wanna make clear that if
there's any sign of, discomfort or cause
344
00:20:08,501 --> 00:20:12,961
to think this cat is having a medical
issue, we do refer first and foremost.
345
00:20:13,431 --> 00:20:17,991
So I have a framework called
the Four Reasons Cats Avoid
346
00:20:17,991 --> 00:20:19,191
the Litter Box framework.
347
00:20:19,321 --> 00:20:21,221
Very straightforward name.
348
00:20:21,321 --> 00:20:23,931
And This is talked about in the Cat
Behavior Counseling course and the
349
00:20:23,931 --> 00:20:25,151
Guide to Cat Behavior Counseling.
350
00:20:25,151 --> 00:20:29,651
But essentially, , there are four
reasons cats avoid the litter box.
351
00:20:29,741 --> 00:20:34,201
There are medical reasons, and into that
I lump if a cat's not spayed or neutered.
352
00:20:34,761 --> 00:20:38,221
There can be a problem with
the litter box setup itself.
353
00:20:38,281 --> 00:20:42,841
There could be an environmental stressor
causing the cat to avoid the litter box.
354
00:20:43,201 --> 00:20:48,411
And there can be cat-- issues amongst cats
or other animals in the home where one
355
00:20:48,411 --> 00:20:51,931
cat, let's say, does not feel comfortable
going into the litter box for whatever
356
00:20:51,931 --> 00:20:53,841
reason with the other animals in the home.
357
00:20:54,361 --> 00:20:56,251
Those are not mutually exclusive reasons.
358
00:20:56,251 --> 00:21:00,721
It could be a cat's avoiding the box
for, it would be unlikely, but for
359
00:21:00,721 --> 00:21:04,271
all four of those reasons, or for
one, two, or three of those reasons.
360
00:21:04,271 --> 00:21:09,461
But it's a very useful framework
to assess litter box cases.
361
00:21:09,931 --> 00:21:13,451
And one of the reasons I developed
this, both the Guide to Cat Behavior
362
00:21:13,451 --> 00:21:18,021
Counseling and the the Cat Behavior
Counseling course, is because in my
363
00:21:18,021 --> 00:21:21,981
experience, and I was certainly guilty
of this before I became a trained cat
364
00:21:21,981 --> 00:21:27,321
behaviorist, was a lot of the times
it's like throwing advice against the
365
00:21:27,321 --> 00:21:29,041
wall and seeing if anything sticks.
366
00:21:29,041 --> 00:21:31,791
So it'll be like, "My cat's
avoiding the litter box."
367
00:21:31,791 --> 00:21:33,411
I'm like have you tried adding a box?
368
00:21:33,411 --> 00:21:34,281
Have you tried , this litter?
369
00:21:34,281 --> 00:21:35,671
Have you tried Feliway?
370
00:21:35,671 --> 00:21:40,677
Have you tried I don't know, the-"
varying the depth of the litter.
371
00:21:40,677 --> 00:21:46,207
All of which can be very good advice, but
it, for us, we do a systematic study in
372
00:21:46,207 --> 00:21:51,287
talking to the person of what's going on
and then provide our advice accordingly.
373
00:21:51,887 --> 00:21:57,887
So this framework is very good
in both formulating the questions
374
00:21:57,887 --> 00:22:02,197
we ask and then guiding our
assessment and guiding our advice.
375
00:22:02,357 --> 00:22:04,417
And the volunteers are trained to do that.
376
00:22:04,857 --> 00:22:09,497
And every single cat, every single
litter box case I do the exact same
377
00:22:09,497 --> 00:22:13,617
thing in, trying to determine or rule
out if it's a medical issue, is it
378
00:22:13,617 --> 00:22:15,017
a problem with the litter box setup?
379
00:22:15,107 --> 00:22:19,037
Is there some kind of environmental
stressor causing this issue and/or
380
00:22:19,477 --> 00:22:22,577
is there an issue amongst cats
or other animals in the household
381
00:22:22,577 --> 00:22:24,387
leading one or more to avoid the box?
382
00:22:24,737 --> 00:22:30,627
So when it's viewed in those terms in that
framework, what often seems like a mystery
383
00:22:30,627 --> 00:22:34,367
or just seems too overwhelming, like
where do I even begin to try to figure
384
00:22:34,367 --> 00:22:36,707
this out becomes much more manageable.
385
00:22:37,147 --> 00:22:41,247
And when I explain it to the cat owner,
much as I just explained it now, and
386
00:22:41,247 --> 00:22:42,397
they're like, "Oh, that makes sense."
387
00:22:42,397 --> 00:22:47,797
And it just provides a really easy means
to try to figure out what's going on.
388
00:22:49,397 --> 00:22:52,897
Dixie: And what about the cat
that has one of those urinary
389
00:22:52,897 --> 00:22:57,337
complexes, it's FLUTD or FIC,.
390
00:22:57,417 --> 00:23:00,207
Do your tips help those cats as well?
391
00:23:00,207 --> 00:23:03,387
Because I know a lot of the times with
those cats, they'll go outside of the
392
00:23:03,387 --> 00:23:09,337
box and they find weird places to, go,
like a blanket, a towel, your clothes, or
393
00:23:09,337 --> 00:23:13,577
sometimes even the sofa, because it's more
so that they're trying to avoid the litter
394
00:23:13,577 --> 00:23:15,927
box 'cause , they associate it with pain.
395
00:23:16,919 --> 00:23:21,499
Matt: The first step would be to go
to the vet to, to get diagnostics and
396
00:23:21,499 --> 00:23:24,599
hopefully determine what's going on
and get the appropriate medication.
397
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:28,989
There are cases, like there's something
called idiopathic cystitis, which
398
00:23:28,989 --> 00:23:34,699
basically is the cat is experiencing
discomfort when eliminating and it's
399
00:23:34,699 --> 00:23:36,239
unclear as to why it's happening.
400
00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:39,559
There's no obvious source, there's
no obvious medical s- reason, and
401
00:23:39,559 --> 00:23:42,409
there's no obvious behavioral reason.
402
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:49,159
And those can be tricky because often
the cat will s- sporadically eliminate
403
00:23:49,159 --> 00:23:52,369
around the home, and sometimes there'll
be days or weeks where there's no issue
404
00:23:52,369 --> 00:23:55,309
at all, and then all of a sudden there'll
be days or weeks where it's a big issue.
405
00:23:55,789 --> 00:23:58,679
So a lot of that is, first of
all, , that's where kind of the
406
00:23:58,679 --> 00:24:01,479
cat behavior counseling, the
counseling aspect comes into it.
407
00:24:01,929 --> 00:24:04,709
Sometimes-- and I've had cases
where sometimes the case was
408
00:24:04,709 --> 00:24:07,179
not actually entirely resolved.
409
00:24:07,179 --> 00:24:10,329
It was just, let's say, a very
complicated case and, the cat is
410
00:24:10,659 --> 00:24:15,579
still maybe not eliminating 10
times a month around the home.
411
00:24:15,579 --> 00:24:18,259
Maybe it's down to two or three, but
it's still two or three times the
412
00:24:18,259 --> 00:24:19,569
cat's eliminating around the house.
413
00:24:20,639 --> 00:24:24,699
But the person in talking to them now
has somebody they can really talk to and
414
00:24:24,699 --> 00:24:29,019
an ally, and they feel supported, and
they feel validated in their frustration.
415
00:24:29,629 --> 00:24:33,309
'Cause a lot of times people, cat owners,
they may not have other people to talk
416
00:24:33,309 --> 00:24:37,339
to who really understand, their bond with
their cat and their frustration with this.
417
00:24:37,709 --> 00:24:41,719
And sometimes even, people who are living
in the household with the primary cat
418
00:24:41,719 --> 00:24:45,129
owner are either not that interested
in the cat or very much want the cat
419
00:24:45,129 --> 00:24:46,739
to leave if there's a behavior issue.
420
00:24:47,069 --> 00:24:50,409
It's hard to overemphasize the
importance of establishing just a
421
00:24:50,409 --> 00:24:53,749
strong connection with the person we're
talking to on, on the other end of
422
00:24:53,749 --> 00:24:56,099
the phone and being an ally for them.
423
00:24:56,179 --> 00:25:01,389
And that sometimes you can almost feel
through the phone the relief of having
424
00:25:01,389 --> 00:25:04,309
somebody they can talk to about this
and somebody who's gonna support them.
425
00:25:04,819 --> 00:25:09,479
So there's that, and of course,
that doesn't in and of itself
426
00:25:09,479 --> 00:25:11,939
solve the problem, but it's
an important component to it.
427
00:25:12,429 --> 00:25:15,989
But a lot of times, let's say with
idiopathic cystitis, like stress can
428
00:25:15,989 --> 00:25:18,449
be a certainly a trigger for that.
429
00:25:18,449 --> 00:25:21,999
So we, talk about ways to decrease
the cat's stress, to increase
430
00:25:22,109 --> 00:25:25,199
playtime, which is a great way
to decrease the cat's stress.
431
00:25:25,549 --> 00:25:26,809
Sometimes there's supplements.
432
00:25:26,809 --> 00:25:31,039
There's a clinically proven supplement
called L-theanine, which is actually
433
00:25:31,779 --> 00:25:36,079
used for humans to, to reduce stress, but
is also known to reduce stress in cats.
434
00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:40,539
So there's various, advice we can give
people to try to help in these situations.
435
00:25:40,539 --> 00:25:44,659
But certainly if, if there's a medical
issue the first step is the vet, and
436
00:25:44,829 --> 00:25:48,809
hopefully they're able to determine the
medication needed to resolve the problem.
437
00:25:49,626 --> 00:25:53,016
Dixie: This is always something
I hear from potential adopters.
438
00:25:53,026 --> 00:25:56,066
A lot of adopters are always
looking to adopt females because
439
00:25:56,066 --> 00:25:57,456
they always say the males spray.
440
00:25:57,456 --> 00:26:02,176
And I always laugh, of course, because
all the cats and kittens that we adopt
441
00:26:02,176 --> 00:26:03,786
out, they're all spayed and neutered.
442
00:26:04,066 --> 00:26:06,966
We don't let them go out without
first being spayed or neutered, and
443
00:26:06,966 --> 00:26:11,096
the only time I ever had an issue
with a cat spraying, it was a female.
444
00:26:11,296 --> 00:26:14,436
She was spayed, and I got her
when she was a bottle baby.
445
00:26:14,866 --> 00:26:17,926
So that's one thing I always
laugh about because I'm like,
446
00:26:17,926 --> 00:26:19,616
"The female cats spray, too."
447
00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:23,636
So what is something that you
would tell people or something
448
00:26:23,646 --> 00:26:25,576
that people could do for spraying?
449
00:26:25,586 --> 00:26:28,856
Say they get a kitten and it's
fine, and then all of a sudden they
450
00:26:28,856 --> 00:26:30,196
start spraying all over the house.
451
00:26:31,112 --> 00:26:34,252
Matt: Assuming they're spay or neutered,
as you said, a female spayed cat can
452
00:26:34,252 --> 00:26:36,992
spray, a male neutered cat can spray.
453
00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:40,902
Of course, if they're intact, especially
the males are much more likely to spray.
454
00:26:41,432 --> 00:26:44,392
So it's a matter of, if they're
spraying there's some kind of
455
00:26:44,392 --> 00:26:46,892
environmental stressor going on there.
456
00:26:47,362 --> 00:26:51,122
So we talk about ways to
either eliminate that stress.
457
00:26:51,172 --> 00:26:54,642
So sometimes it can be They had a
case where th-there were several
458
00:26:54,642 --> 00:26:59,192
cats in the home who were spraying
on the front and back door which is
459
00:26:59,192 --> 00:27:03,302
like classic sign of spraying when
there's outdoor animals around.
460
00:27:03,772 --> 00:27:08,702
So you know, There can be ad-advice
given anywhere from there are outdoor
461
00:27:08,702 --> 00:27:11,682
cat deterrents so that the cats
are not right by your front door.
462
00:27:12,212 --> 00:27:17,332
There's ways to deter the cats from, let's
say, going right near the front door.
463
00:27:17,732 --> 00:27:22,622
So for example, like one method which
is pretty simple is if you can take
464
00:27:22,622 --> 00:27:26,282
like a car a car mat has like little
spikes on the bottom of it to, so
465
00:27:26,282 --> 00:27:27,812
it sticks to the carpet in the car.
466
00:27:28,402 --> 00:27:31,082
So there's various items like
that, which cats, they don't like
467
00:27:31,112 --> 00:27:33,272
walking on little sharp objects.
468
00:27:33,272 --> 00:27:36,132
It doesn't do them any harm or
anything, but that's a good way to
469
00:27:36,132 --> 00:27:39,932
deter a cat, like from, let's say,
going , immediately to the front
470
00:27:39,932 --> 00:27:43,532
door 'cause they just can't access
it if there's something in their way.
471
00:27:43,922 --> 00:27:45,562
So there can be deterrents like that.
472
00:27:45,852 --> 00:27:50,132
A lot of times it's a matter of reducing
the cat's stress through interactive play.
473
00:27:50,522 --> 00:27:54,232
Ensuring that they're on a routine and
they-- which can help a lot with stress.
474
00:27:54,232 --> 00:27:58,492
So there's a variety of different
measures we can take with a cat
475
00:27:58,492 --> 00:28:03,072
who's spraying and, and it sometimes
can be medically related as well.
476
00:28:03,492 --> 00:28:06,432
But typically there's a stressor, and
it's a matter of either identifying
477
00:28:06,432 --> 00:28:09,712
the stressor and certainly, providing
advice so that stress is reduced.
478
00:28:10,772 --> 00:28:14,072
Dixie: When you tell these people to use
these deterrents, is that something that
479
00:28:14,072 --> 00:28:18,632
would have to be in place permanently,
or is that just like a temporary thing
480
00:28:18,642 --> 00:28:21,512
until you get the cat out of the behavior?
481
00:28:22,462 --> 00:28:25,332
Matt: A lot of times the cats are
h-habituated to the behavior, and
482
00:28:25,332 --> 00:28:28,452
then over time it can be, removed.
483
00:28:28,642 --> 00:28:31,562
And that's also, again, why we talk
about the importance of follow-up.
484
00:28:31,592 --> 00:28:35,662
If the cats have been spraying on the,
the front and back door for months
485
00:28:35,662 --> 00:28:38,982
as they had in this case, it's not
likely to just be resolved overnight.
486
00:28:39,512 --> 00:28:42,832
So you know, typically with that
kind of case, I'd want the cats
487
00:28:42,832 --> 00:28:47,322
not to have sprayed for at least a
month before removing the deterrent.
488
00:28:47,882 --> 00:28:49,052
But, each case is unique.
489
00:28:49,212 --> 00:28:52,182
But again, that's why the counseling
aspect is so important because
490
00:28:52,182 --> 00:28:54,242
the follow-up is just essential.
491
00:28:54,242 --> 00:28:56,902
So right now, we have a number
of pending cases which seemingly
492
00:28:56,902 --> 00:29:00,072
are, they're resolving, but w-
we need to give it a little more
493
00:29:00,072 --> 00:29:01,702
time to ensure that's the case.
494
00:29:02,656 --> 00:29:06,266
Dixie: Let's say somebody sends you
an email with a behavior problem.
495
00:29:06,576 --> 00:29:10,626
How much time do you tell them
that they're gonna have to devote
496
00:29:10,666 --> 00:29:12,596
initially to solve this problem?
497
00:29:13,056 --> 00:29:16,296
I know each case is different,
but what is an average?
498
00:29:17,127 --> 00:29:21,357
Matt: The bulk of the time that they'll
have to spend is , if they need to do
499
00:29:21,447 --> 00:29:23,007
more interactive play with the cat.
500
00:29:23,037 --> 00:29:27,227
So whether it's a matter of one cat who's
bullying another cat, or one cat who's
501
00:29:27,277 --> 00:29:31,767
showing some play aggression to people
like swatting at their legs or, not in
502
00:29:32,127 --> 00:29:35,697
aggression as we think of it, but more
just they have all this energy to burn.
503
00:29:36,427 --> 00:29:41,307
So a lot of times in those cases the
cat really does need three 15-minute
504
00:29:41,347 --> 00:29:44,937
play sessions a day, and then each
play session is followed by a meal, and
505
00:29:44,937 --> 00:29:48,767
then you have a cat who, tends to be
relaxed in between the play sessions.
506
00:29:49,397 --> 00:29:52,767
So in those cases, we'll talk
to the person and say, ideally,
507
00:29:52,817 --> 00:29:56,297
you could spend three 15-minute
play sessions with your cat.
508
00:29:56,757 --> 00:29:59,517
Often what I'll say, 'cause that can
be overwhelming if they've not been
509
00:29:59,517 --> 00:30:03,377
spending any time I'll say, you can
multitask when you're doing it, so you
510
00:30:03,377 --> 00:30:06,857
could be on the phone while you're,
using a laser light with your cat or a
511
00:30:06,967 --> 00:30:08,617
fishing rod toy or something like that.
512
00:30:09,137 --> 00:30:14,437
And also like with the deterrent I'll say
to people like, "Look we just wanna figure
513
00:30:14,437 --> 00:30:19,727
out how much energy your cat has and what
it's gonna take to use up that energy
514
00:30:19,727 --> 00:30:21,907
so that the behavior issue resolves.
515
00:30:21,937 --> 00:30:27,857
And, what I'm asking you to do is if you
can for, at least several days in a row,
516
00:30:27,887 --> 00:30:30,577
try three 15-minute play sessions a day.
517
00:30:31,017 --> 00:30:32,267
Let's see what happens.
518
00:30:32,767 --> 00:30:35,977
Assuming the behavior gets better,
then of course, it's up to you to
519
00:30:35,977 --> 00:30:39,767
decide how much time each day you
wanna spend, but at least we know,
520
00:30:40,157 --> 00:30:41,817
okay, this is what this cat needs."
521
00:30:41,817 --> 00:30:43,807
And in some cases the
cat needs more than…
522
00:30:43,967 --> 00:30:48,047
it's unusual, but sometimes cats need
four or five play sessions a day.
523
00:30:48,457 --> 00:30:51,297
We always frame it so it's not
overwhelming to the person.
524
00:30:51,297 --> 00:30:56,677
So to answer your question, those cases
would be where, upwards of 45 minutes a
525
00:30:56,677 --> 00:30:58,657
day the person would spend with their cat.
526
00:30:58,687 --> 00:31:02,557
But we also frame it as don't think of
this as forever, especially with a person
527
00:31:02,557 --> 00:31:05,417
who's thinking of giving their cat, we
don't want them to think okay, now they've
528
00:31:05,417 --> 00:31:07,137
got a 45-minute commitment every day.
529
00:31:07,587 --> 00:31:09,597
Let's just see if it's gonna
resolve the problem, and then
530
00:31:09,597 --> 00:31:11,737
we can talk about next steps.
531
00:31:11,737 --> 00:31:16,657
Similarly with a let's say a cat's peeing
on a couch routinely or peeing near a
532
00:31:16,657 --> 00:31:20,747
window sill or something and it seems
like the cat really has a preference
533
00:31:20,747 --> 00:31:24,017
for the living room to eliminate
in and there's no litter box there.
534
00:31:24,617 --> 00:31:26,607
And a lot of times people
do not understandably want a
535
00:31:26,607 --> 00:31:27,747
litter box in their living room.
536
00:31:27,747 --> 00:31:31,137
But if we think that will help to
resolve the problem, we'll say to
537
00:31:31,137 --> 00:31:32,627
the person, "Look, let's try it.
538
00:31:32,627 --> 00:31:33,577
Let's see if it works.
539
00:31:33,977 --> 00:31:37,187
It's certainly easier scooping a
litter box in your living room than to
540
00:31:37,277 --> 00:31:39,077
cleaning a couch that's been peed on.
541
00:31:39,457 --> 00:31:42,847
But let's see if it works, and if it
works, then we can talk about, whether
542
00:31:42,847 --> 00:31:46,219
you feel comfortable enough to keeping
the litter box in the living room.
543
00:31:46,309 --> 00:31:50,879
But what we found is in those cases when
it comes to playing with the cat once
544
00:31:50,879 --> 00:31:54,319
the behavior issue is resolved because
they're adequately playing with their
545
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:58,279
cat or they've put the litter box where
it needs to be I'd say 90% of the time
546
00:31:58,329 --> 00:32:00,959
the cat owner is in a different state
of mind and they're like, "Yeah I can
547
00:32:00,959 --> 00:32:04,229
deal with the litter box in the living
room," or, "It's really not too bad to
548
00:32:04,229 --> 00:32:05,829
play with this cat three times a day."
549
00:32:06,269 --> 00:32:09,379
So we try to make it so
it's not overwhelming.
550
00:32:09,869 --> 00:32:12,809
And that also goes to
this idea of practicality.
551
00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:16,959
I had a call yesterday where the
cat had been the mother's cat.
552
00:32:16,989 --> 00:32:19,639
The mother unfortunately
passed away recently.
553
00:32:20,229 --> 00:32:22,569
The person, seemed like a very
decent person, but they were not
554
00:32:22,569 --> 00:32:26,129
tremendously bonded to this cat,
and they were not going to do a
555
00:32:26,129 --> 00:32:28,119
tremendous amount to, of work.
556
00:32:28,169 --> 00:32:29,869
This cat was avoiding the litter box.
557
00:32:30,159 --> 00:32:34,669
Maybe there was 10 pieces of advice I
could have given, but I chose, let's
558
00:32:34,669 --> 00:32:39,539
say, the top four or five I thought were
really going to be the most effective
559
00:32:39,589 --> 00:32:40,899
and which he was actually gonna do.
560
00:32:40,969 --> 00:32:44,969
'Cause if I gave, if I inundated him with
advice, I knew it was not gonna happen.
561
00:32:44,969 --> 00:32:48,539
He just was not in the place where he
was going to make this a big commitment.
562
00:32:49,009 --> 00:32:53,149
So there, there's just this real
practical component to it which again
563
00:32:53,149 --> 00:32:56,519
just goes back to, forging a really good
connection with the person on the phone.
564
00:32:57,449 --> 00:33:00,409
Dixie: I really wanna thank you
again for having this resource.
565
00:33:00,789 --> 00:33:03,269
It's just such an important thing to have.
566
00:33:03,299 --> 00:33:07,989
I know when I get those calls or messages
from people, I will definitely refer
567
00:33:07,989 --> 00:33:12,899
them to you, and I'm gonna include
your links in the show notes as well
568
00:33:12,899 --> 00:33:18,379
to your self-paced online course and
your guide to cat behavior counseling
569
00:33:19,347 --> 00:33:21,907
Matt: And one other thing, if you
don't mind, if I could just mention as
570
00:33:21,907 --> 00:33:26,097
the helpline grows, we're definitely
in need of more volunteers, and the
571
00:33:26,097 --> 00:33:29,987
nice thing about being a volunteer is
you really don't need any experience.
572
00:33:30,147 --> 00:33:33,687
You'll go through a significant amount
of training to get to the point where
573
00:33:33,687 --> 00:33:36,247
you can handle cases on the phone.
574
00:33:36,597 --> 00:33:42,157
And it's an extremely rewarding and
high impact experience knowing that
575
00:33:42,157 --> 00:33:44,337
you're keeping cats in their homes.
576
00:33:44,557 --> 00:33:49,757
So if anybody is interested in potentially
volunteering all you have to have is a
577
00:33:49,857 --> 00:33:53,097
a love for cats and a love for people
and wanting to keep them together.
578
00:33:53,387 --> 00:33:56,357
You can also email me at
579
00:33:56,447 --> 00:33:58,187
and I can give you the information.
580
00:33:58,734 --> 00:33:59,874
Dixie: and do you have a website as well?
581
00:34:00,597 --> 00:34:03,247
Matt: So we are working on our website.
582
00:34:03,247 --> 00:34:08,587
We're actually a program of an animal
sanctuary called Safe Haven Farm
583
00:34:08,587 --> 00:34:10,947
Sanctuary, which is in Upstate New York.
584
00:34:11,407 --> 00:34:15,097
We're gonna have a page on
their website, which their web
585
00:34:15,097 --> 00:34:16,887
developer is soon to have up.
586
00:34:17,447 --> 00:34:20,277
But it's safehavenfarmsanctuary.org
587
00:34:20,947 --> 00:34:23,857
is the organization that ultimately
is sponsoring this program.
588
00:34:24,337 --> 00:34:26,737
But our website should be up
there hopefully within a week.
589
00:34:26,777 --> 00:34:27,797
I mean our webpage.
590
00:34:28,647 --> 00:34:31,547
Dixie: Thank you so much for taking
the time to go over this with me.
591
00:34:31,547 --> 00:34:32,947
I really appreciate it
592
00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:33,969
Matt: yeah.
593
00:34:34,659 --> 00:34:35,129
Oh, no problem.
594
00:34:35,129 --> 00:34:36,059
Thanks so much for having me.
595
00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:36,839
Much appreciated.
