Dear Listener, have you ever felt like you're competing with your partner's job, phone, friends, or hobbies for their attention? Or maybe you've been on the other side—accused of not prioritizing your partner when you didn't even realize you were doing it? Whether you're in a long-term relationship or just starting to date someone new, this episode is for you. (Singles: stick around until the end for dating-specific tips on managing thirds from day one.)

In this episode, we dive into one of the most common causes of relationship problems: mismanaged thirds. "Thirds" is a concept from Stan Tatkin that refers to anything outside the couple—people, things, or activities—that can leave one or both partners feeling neglected or sidelined. When thirds aren't managed well, the couple bubble gets compromised, and the relationship suffers.

We explore why thirds threaten your sense of safety and security, the signs of relationship trouble to watch for (hint: it's not always about the thing you're fighting about), and how to protect your relationship by setting boundaries that actually work. Spoiler: the answer isn't "stop doing the thing" or "stop caring"—it's something more nuanced that leaves neither partner feeling like they've lost.

This is the first episode in a four-part series on managing thirds—stay tuned for deep dives on healing from betrayal, navigating in-laws, and ethical non-monogamy.

Key Takeaways

00:00 Intro

01:53 What are "thirds"—and why do they threaten your relationship?

21:09 How do you protect your relationship from mismanaged thirds?

31:26 Managing thirds in early dating

Resources and links

Your Brain on Love by Stan Tatkin (audiobook)

The Ten Commandments for a Secure-Functioning Relationship by Stan Tatkin (blog post)

Ep. 20 - Understanding Jealousy, Compersion & Attachment in Relationships (podcast episode)

Have a question or comment? Email us at [email protected]. We love hearing from you!

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To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

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From the relationship center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor and

2

dating coach, Jessica Engle, and this is

I Love You too, a show about how to create

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and sustain meaningful relationships.

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Josh: I'm dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

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On today's episode, we're gonna

be talking about one of the most

6

common reasons, relationships,

struggle, and what to do about it.

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We're so happy you're here.

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And please remember that the show is

not a substitute for a relationship with

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a licensed mental health professional.

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Hello and welcome dear listener.

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Thanks for joining us for today's episode.

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As I mentioned, we're gonna be

talking about one of the most

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common reasons relationships,

struggle, and what to do about it.

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And this will be for both folks who

are in a relationship as well as

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folks who are single and dating.

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Jessica: Before we get started, if you

love our show, well, we love you too and

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want to be in touch between episodes.

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To get more free dating relationship

and social anxiety advice, please go

19

to relationship center.com/newsletter.

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Okay, let's dive

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Josh: Let's do it.

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So,

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Jessica: Jessica, Josh,

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Josh: what is one of the most common

reasons relationships struggle?

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Jessica: Yes.

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It is mismanaged.

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Josh: Third.

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Thirds.

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Thirds.

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Thirds, yes.

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Tell me about thirds.

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Well, but maybe before we tell

me about thirds, let's just

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give the listeners a preview of

kind of where we're headed Sure.

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Today.

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Sure.

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So we will be answering what

are thirds, and why do they

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threaten your relationship.

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We'll also be looking at what

are some of the signs that you're

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not prioritizing your partner.

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And finally, we'll wrap this episode up

with how do you protect your relationship

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by setting boundaries around thirds.

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Jessica: Yes.

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We'll,

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Josh: so Jessica, tell

me what, what are thirds?

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Jessica: This is a term that comes

from Stan Takin, who we've talked

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about a fair amount on this podcast.

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Thirds are people, things and

activities that exist outside a couple.

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So I'll give you some examples.

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People can be friends, family

exes, children, coworkers

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in-laws, other partners.

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Things can be things like alcohol,

drugs, devices like phones,

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computers, boats, luxury watches.

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Josh: I like how you

included boats in there.

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Jessica: boats and luxury watches.

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Josh: Those are, Those are great.

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Your luxury watch can be a third?

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You know what?

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Great,

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Jessica: great.

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Josh: I love it.

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Jessica: Uh, plants, is is the

end of my things list, which

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is not a pointed, edition.

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Josh: Are you telling me

I have too many plants?

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Just 'cause there's something

we need to talk about.

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Jessica: Uh, and thirds can also be

activities, things like work, hobbies,

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screens, affairs, social media,

computer games, CrossFit, gambling.

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Josh: practice.

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Mm-hmm.

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Jessica: So with all of these, you've

heard the term third wheel, I'm sure.

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The idea here is that couples where

one or both partners feel sidelined by

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another person thing or activity tend to

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Josh: struggle,

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Jessica: And, in many cases

those relationships end.

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Josh: So

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I think this is a really interesting

concept in particular because there's

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a lot of messaging in our call around

what should be priority, right?

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It is not uncommon for, people

to feel like, oh, my parents

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should come first, right?

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Or whatever, like work, right?

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I feel like this is a

concept that really helps

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The impact of making some of those

choices on your relationship.

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Jessica: This is a really powerful

concept and it's not one that

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we learn from our society.

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And it really can shift things

profoundly once you see it.

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Yeah.

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Um, I, I have, I don't know about

you, but I have had relationships

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end because of mismanaged thirds

and it was incredibly painful.

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I think in our relationship, we have found

places where we have to be wise about

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thirds in order to really stay strong.

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Josh: Yeah.

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And I think this is also, it feels

like a secret to me sometimes because I

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think the couples that I really admire.

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I think they get this, even if they

don't necessarily use these words for it.

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They understand your

partner must come first.

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Yes, this is,

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Jessica: yes, this is a very

intuitive thing for secure functioning

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couples and family systems.

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I wonder if it might be helpful

to give a few more examples of

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like how thirds, sideline couples.

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Josh: What does this look

like when it goes badly?

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Jessica: One example would

be, , one partner works long hours.

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And the other one really feels neglected.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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That causes a lot of fights between them.

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And one says, my work is really

important to me, they need me at work.

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And the other says, what about me?

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Josh: Mm-hmm.

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Jessica: Uh, another one

that's super common is, things

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like substance use, right?

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So one person maybe drinks a

lot and the other person is

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really uncomfortable with that.

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Another one might be, having, an

ex who's a close friend and the

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other one, the other partner,

really feeling jealous about this.

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Lastly, another might be,

let's say you really, really

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love backpacking in Yosemite.

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Mm-hmm.

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And you are going every other weekend and

your partner can't backpack for physical

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reasons, and that ends up leaving you to

fighting often feeling really distant.

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Josh: And if you're hearing these examples

and your thought so far is like, are you

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just gonna tell me I have to stop doing

the other thing, or I have to stop seeing

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the other person, or I have to stop?

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Like that is not necessarily the answer.

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So there's more nuance to this than,

just cut off the thing that is,

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causing issues in your relationship.

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So I just wanna preempt that

if you're having that thought

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Jessica: to the other partner.

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We're also not gonna say Stop caring.

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Josh: Right.

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That's a fair point.

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Yeah.

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Just don't worry about it.

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It's fine.

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They're just having fun.

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Jessica: less sensitive.

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That's, that's what we all

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Josh: what we all, that's

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Jessica: really need to hear, right?

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Uh, so this is the, the first of a four

part series all about managing thirds.

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Okay.

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So

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this is the overview episode.

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We are gonna be going more in

depth into managing thirds.

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So no, there's actually a lot of

nuance and depth to this topic.

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Lemme go ahead and pull back a little

bit and talk a little bit more about why

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managing Thirds well matters so much.

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Josh: Tell me.

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Jessica: Okay.

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So Stan really was pulling,

from a few different places, but

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number one, attachment theory.

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Uh, dear Listener, you're probably

somewhat familiar with attachment theory.

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The idea in attachment theory is my

home is not a place but another person.

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So, from the beginning of our lives,

we look to our caregiver for safety and

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security, and that continues through

the lifespan and within partnership,

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we end up looking to our partner as

our home, as our security and safety.

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And so because of that, Stanly

talks about, secure functioning

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couples, couples who are just and

fair to one another and operate out

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of secure attachment principles.

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They know they have to prioritize their

partner and they know that safety and

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security is the number one priority.

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We must ensure that we feel safe

and secure with one another.

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Stan talks about the couple bubble,

you can imagine if you are in a couple,

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there's a bubble around you that

represents kind of your ecosystem.

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And a third can kind of pop that bubble

or can compromise the atmosphere of the

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sort of ecosystem that you have in a way

that, uh, starts to pollute it, let's say.

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And then in the end, if you are

not feeling safe and secure in your

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relationship or your partner isn't.

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Josh: that

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Jessica: That creates a lot of havoc

and that havoc actually adds to

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something that's called allostatic

load, which is essentially the kind of

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stress that has, a deep sense of wear

and tear on the body and can actually

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cause long-term issues like, cardiac

issues or, a shortened lifespan.

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the whole drive here is to really be wise

about how we're wired, and how we're wired

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within partnership and to take care of

that so that we get to be happy within

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relationship, but also just as human

beings over a very long period of time.

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Josh: I wonder if it would be helpful

to share briefly what kinds of things

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can happen when we don't feel safe

and secure in our relationship.

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Mm-hmm.

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Jessica: So some of the response

that, let's say a partner who feels

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threatened by a third, might have,

will be obviously tied to the third.

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So things like, I really don't

like how you were talking to

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your coworker at that party.

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Yeah, right.

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Pretty obvious in terms

of the more subtle signs.

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If someone's feeling insecure

in a relationship, they're

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gonna generally defer to their

status quo in relationships.

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So for the anxious person,

anxiously attached person, they're

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gonna cling a little bit more.

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and they're also going to probably

be a little more, critical and angry.

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So it might look like.

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You are coming home from hanging out

with your buddies and your partner

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is, criticizing you when you walk in

the door, not about being with your

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buddies, but just about something random.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or they're, kind of pouting in the corner.

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or for those who are more avoidantly

attached, if they are feeling insecure,

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they're not going to, go into that

kind of clinging or more angry place.

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They're gonna distance more.

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Josh: Mm-hmm.

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Jessica: And so, you might find your

avoidant partner spending less and

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less time with you pulling away.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Which obviously could be

very painful on both sides.

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And it feels like an important thing

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Jessica: thing

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Josh: to name because it isn't

always obviously connected to.

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The heart of what we're talking about,

managing thirds or mismanaging thirds,

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but can have this kind of pervasive

global effect in your relationship

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that makes things harder, makes you

feel less connected, less enjoying

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each other's company and time together.

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and ultimately, potentially ending

the relationship even though it's not

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always clear it's about the thing.

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Jessica: Yeah, If you're struggling

in your relationship, consider thirds,

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even if it's not, the number one

fight that you have, could be subtle

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ways that you both are mismanaging

thirds you're not even fully aware of.

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Yeah.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Jessica: Along those lines, I

wanna name that thirds, Aren.

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bad inherently, like there's

always thirds in life.

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they're inevitable.

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So really the, the huge task in

secure functioning relating is

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figuring out how to manage them

well for your particular system.

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Josh: it's almost like

you need thirds, right?

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Like a couple isolated by themselves

has much less staying power than

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a couple that's well supported

by friends, loved ones community,

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you know, they're good things.

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It's just how we be with them

and how do we relate to them in

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the context of our relationship.

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Jessica: Absolutely.

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So, part of growing up

for a lot of us is, not

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Josh: giving

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Jessica: too much energy to thirds or not

enough, but learning how to be in right

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relationship with them, such that our

partner still feels like they're priority.

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Josh: Yeah, love that.

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So let's talk then about what

are some of the signs that you're

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not prioritizing your partner?

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AKA you might be mismanaging

a third in your relationship.

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Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

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So, again, we'll go over more obvious

ones and maybe more subtle ones.

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The more obvious ones are that one person,

really says they feel neglected, jealous,

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abandoned, or like an afterthought.

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I wanna just name with the jealousy piece.

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We have a great episode about

jealousy in relationships that we'll

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link to, and another one coming up.

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we're gonna be talking about non-monogamy

with Nick Penrod and going into jealousy.

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Jealousy is not a, if your partner

feels jealous, you have mismanaged

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a third, but it is kind of like a

signal, like, Hey, look, look more

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closely.

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so look at those episodes for

a little more nuance about all

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that other more obvious signs.

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The third is causing

relationship problems.

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Uh, recurrent fights about a person.

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Place?

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No, not person, place.

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Recurrent fights.

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Josh: My, my third is Shasta.

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Jessica: I mean, it

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could, it could be.

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It could be.

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But there is usually an activity that

goes along with it, like going to Shasta.

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So recurrent fights about

a person activity or thing.

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drifting apart, little or no intimacy

and, betrayals things like, and when I

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say betrayals and we are gonna actually

have an episode on betrayal, trauma,

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betrayals are things like, affairs is

usually the first thing people think

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about, but you can also think about

anything where a partner has withheld

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information that could change everything

for the other person if they knew it.

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So things like, I have a secret offshore

account, or actually I am, hiding

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the fact that I don't want kids, even

though we talked about that years ago.

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Josh: Mm.

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Jessica: anything along those lines.

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Josh: So those are some of the,

the, the big most obvious signs,

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but I I, there are also some more

subtle signs that you might see.

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Jessica: there are.

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Okay.

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So one of these is you complain about

one another a lot to friends or your

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therapist without actually resolving

issues with one another directly.

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There's some amount of talking

with friends and therapists

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that is totally normal, right?

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And if it is a way to avoid

directly addressing the issue,

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that's a mismanaged third,

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Josh: third.

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Tell me a little bit more about that one.

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is that a mismanaged third in the

sense that you are essentially going

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to somebody else to try to resolve

the problem by complaining rather than

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going to your partner and saying, I

need or want this in our relationship?

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Jessica: yes.

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And often when that pattern is

happening, other people are the

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first people to know about an issue.

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And ultimately in a secure functioning

relationship, more than likely

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the principle is we go to each

other first when there's an issue.

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There can be a real sense of betrayal

if, one partner learns, you've been

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talking about this for months and

you haven't brought it up with me.

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Oof.

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Josh: Oof.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Jessica: Another one that is a more

subtle indication you're struggling

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with thirds in your relationship

is you throw each other under the

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bus when you are with other people.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I think you probably know these

couples, dear listener, you get

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uncomfortable around them at a dinner

party 'cause they're jabbing at each

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other or one turns to you and makes

a snide remark about the other.

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Josh: Yep.

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Jessica: or even again, if you're in

couples therapy and, one of you, turns

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to the therapist and starts, really

complaining and sharing something

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kind of without permission from their

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partner, right?

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And this one may feel a little trickier

'cause it's like, well, we're in therapy.

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We're supposed to be

saying everything, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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But even in therapy, the

therapist is the outsider.

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And the couple is the two

person system that is supposed

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to be protecting itself right?

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And so, you, even with your

therapist, wanna make sure that you

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are being, good to your partner.

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Josh: And so an example of that

might be you're agreeing to

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talk about a thing together.

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It's like, we really need

help resolving this challenge.

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And so we're bringing this to our

couple's therapist for support around

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that, versus one person unilaterally

like, well, I'm going to complain

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about this thing that I'm upset about.

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Jessica: Yes.

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And I think the other piece is, just

checking with your partner first,

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if you're gonna share something that

they might feel embarrassed about.

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So, maybe easy example is a couple

goes to a couple's therapist and

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one starts talking about the other

person's sexual problems without first

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checking in and saying, sweetie, are

you okay with us talking about this?

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with our therapist?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Josh: that makes sense.

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Jessica: uh, another example that's

more subtle, that might show you're

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struggling with thirds is, again,

this goes back to couples therapy.

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You're actually like trying to

enroll the therapist to, or, or

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this could also happen with friends.

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Play the part of the judge, like,

I'm gonna tell you my story and

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he's gonna tell you his story,

and you tell us which one's.

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Right.

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Josh: One of us has to be right,

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Jessica: Mm-hmm.

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Josh: and it's probably me, so you're

gonna agree with me about this.

344

Mm-hmm.

345

But yeah, you're gonna, you're

gonna determine but's Right.

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In the relationship.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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Or acting in a way that's

like, I'm the good one in the

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couple, but he's the bad one.

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Josh: Right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Jessica: Uh, and then lastly, another,

subtle sign is one partner tends to feel

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abandoned when y'all are out socializing.

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So this one's pretty common.

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maybe you go to a work party and,

at the end of it, the person whose,

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workplace it is not, is like I

knew no one there and you were just

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walking around talking to everybody.

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that's a great example of not

helping your partner necessarily

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feel prioritized in that situation.

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The last thing I'll say about all this is,

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in terms of signs, you're not

prioritizing your partner.

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Ultimately, you need to look at the

feedback your partner is giving you.

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and generally kind of how's the

relationship feeling, because

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thirds can be experienced very

differently person to person, right?

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Like,

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somebody might go to that work party

and feel super abandoned and another

367

person might be like, this is great,

I'm gonna go talk to a bunch of people.

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I don't know.

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Josh: Right.

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Jessica: so the real sign is

how your partner is responding.

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Yeah.

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Josh: Yeah.

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Which, I imagine can sometimes

be hard if you have an opinion

374

like this shouldn't be an issue.

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Jessica: Yes.

376

Josh: but for your partner it is.

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And that's a place where if you

wanna be in that relationship, you

378

have to really listen and find a way

to resolve whatever is happening in

379

a way that works for your partner.

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Otherwise, what are you doing?

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Jessica: Right?

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So in our household, we have

a couple acronyms we use.

383

One is, oops, which stands for one

person Psychological Systeming.

384

And that just means, oopsie.

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One of us was acting just

in our own self-interest.

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Josh: Oops.

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Jessica: Oops.

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And forgetting, uh, tips,

forgetting, that we are actually

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a two person psychological system.

390

So again, this goes back to attachment

theory, it goes back to, neuroscience.

391

And the truth is, when we're in

relationship and in, uh, uh, romantic

392

relationship as adults, that is a

very special kind of relationship

393

where the nervous system's

actually entrained to one another.

394

And, this is another thing that secure

couples, secure families get intuitively.

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If it's not good for you,

it's not good for me.

396

If you don't like it, that's

gonna come back on me.

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even if I have a totally

different opinion.

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The reality of our.

399

Set up is if you are distressed,

that distress will come on onto me.

400

And so it's wise and it's just

kind of practical to accept, oh, my

401

partner really doesn't like this even

though I don't have an issue with it.

402

If they have a problem with it, so do I.

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Josh: yeah.

404

Makes sense

405

Jessica: Nice.

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And I want to just name, 'cause

407

I can hear a listener out there saying,

well that sounds like codependency.

408

Uh, and I think one thing I

wanna emphasize here is that the

409

deal is, this goes both ways.

410

Okay.

411

Codependency is when one person

is sacrificing themselves

412

for the other's comfort.

413

Yeah.

414

And in an interdependent relationship,

in a secure functioning relationship,

415

both partners are accepting that the

other person's distress is theirs.

416

And everyone's working with

what's in the system to make sure,

417

safety and security is insured.

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Josh: Yeah.

419

You can't do this unilaterally in your

relationship if your partner's not on

420

board for this, it's not gonna work.

421

Jessica: That's right.

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We encourage you to go back to our,

episode that came out recently about

423

relationship, purpose and vision, because

it is really important to get on the same

424

page about being in a secure functioning

relationship in the first place.

425

If you're with somebody who's

like, that's not my thing.

426

I want to prioritize work and I

want a partner who's just kind

427

of a companion here and there,

you're gonna be working uphill.

428

So see if you can, get on the same

page about what you're doing together.

429

Josh: Yeah, absolutely.

430

So how do you then protect your

relationship from mismanaged thirds?

431

Jessica: Yeah.

432

So the way that you protect your

relationship is by, setting boundaries

433

around thirds that are mutually agreeable.

434

So I would say before any specific thirds,

get discussed, it's really important for

435

a couple to get on the same page about

how you're managing thirds generally.

436

We really recommend having a

couple's agreements document.

437

we have our partnership declaration

that we keep in our notion space.

438

And within that we have, something

that is akin to what Stan writes

439

in his 10 agreements for secure

functioning relationships.

440

We will link to that.

441

the principle that Stan shares is,

you will appoint your partner as

442

go-to person for all matters, making

certain your partner is first to know.

443

Not second, third, or fourth

in all matters of importance.

444

And so I think our agreement

is a little simpler than that.

445

It's maybe something along the lines of

like, we're the go-to person, the first

446

to know in all matters, and we, make

sure one another always comes first.

447

Josh: We share the important

things with one another first.

448

Jessica: yeah.

449

So having an agreement, and your

agreement might be something like we

450

ensure, one another feels like they are

top priority, or we protect the safety

451

and security of our system at all costs.

452

Anything along those

lines relates to thirds.

453

once you have a more general agreement,

you can then start to talk about

454

specific thirds that might be.

455

Challenging the system.

456

The principle here is that if there's a

bid for time, resources or energy from

457

a third, neither partner should lose.

458

The third always has to lose and it has

to feel like a win-win for both partners.

459

Josh: Can you give an example of that?

460

Jessica: Let's go back to that example

of one partner works long hours.

461

This is something I've worked

on with couples a fair amount.

462

So I'm thinking of a couple, let's say,

one works long hours in finance and

463

the other has kind of a more chill job.

464

we talk about it.

465

The one with the more chill job is really

sad about not having their partner around.

466

Their partner in finance is really wanting

to make good money for their lifestyle.

467

And as we explore that further,

what comes to light is the partner

468

with the more chill job is spending

a fair amount of money, and really

469

likes a certain kind of lifestyle.

470

And so the partner working long

hours is like trying to fund that.

471

Mm-hmm.

472

Right.

473

So here, here we get to see,

oh, there's a system here,

474

Josh: It's not just one

person doing something.

475

Jessica: Yeah.

476

Josh: Yeah.

477

Yeah.

478

Jessica: And so in this way, the

partner who's spending a lot, maybe

479

it's mismanaging that third right.

480

and so they would have to negotiate.

481

And it may be that

negoti, that negotiation.

482

Comes down to, okay, I'm gonna work 10

fewer hours a week and I need you to

483

spend a thousand less, a week, whatever.

484

It's,

485

Josh: mm-hmm.

486

Jessica: and ultimately both partners

have to feel like they're getting

487

something in the negotiation.

488

Josh: This

489

Jessica: This is something that I

think was mind blowing for me when

490

I learned, uh, uh, negotiation is a

skill that all couples need to have.

491

Yeah.

492

And compromise isn't really what

we're going for here because both

493

partners need to feel like they're

being nourished, nurtured, otherwise

494

it does end up breeding resentment.

495

Now, you might be saying, but Jessica,

what if one person's just not willing.

496

To negotiate.

497

Well then I think we're talking

about a deal breaker is the reality.

498

But that can be one of the hard things

about these conversations is really

499

figuring out is this a deal breaker or is

this something that we are both willing

500

to negotiate around Another example for

this, that I think Stan shares in one

501

of his, resources is you've got a couple

who has, one extrovert, one introvert.

502

the extrovert has a work party,

really wants to go to the work party.

503

The introvert rarely doesn't.

504

And so the extrovert, says,

come to this party with me.

505

If you do, I will then,

spend next weekend, with you.

506

Totally low key.

507

We'll have the entire weekend

just to staycation it.

508

and that ends up feeling

really good for both of them.

509

Beautiful.

510

So I wanna really repeat

because management of thirds.

511

Is all about perception, right?

512

The third is only an issue.

513

If your partner determines that it

is ultimately you and your partner

514

have to collaborate on the best

approach to any particular third,

515

and it's gonna vary couple to couple.

516

so an example of this

might be substance use.

517

I've seen couples have very different

responses to, a lot of substance use.

518

For some, it ends up being a deal breaker.

519

Either you get sober or we get divorced.

520

And for others it's like, Hey baby, don't

do the hard stuff unless you're with me.

521

Right?

522

There can be a really wide range

of comfort around these things.

523

Yeah.

524

So again, you need to be in honest

conversation with one another.

525

Josh: I'm feeling like it might

be helpful just I want to just

526

make sure I'm capturing and maybe

the lister is capturing so far.

527

It's like start with a general

agreement to make sure that you are

528

both on the same page about managing

through as well is something that is

529

important to us essentially that we

are both willing and wanting to do.

530

And then from there you're talking

about the specific thirds as they

531

come up and making win-win agreements.

532

that involves negotiation, finding

what is the win-win for each person.

533

and you know, if there is specifically a

bid for limited resources, time, money,

534

et cetera, neither partner should lose.

535

It's the third that should

lose out in that scenario.

536

Am I tracking so far?

537

Jessica: You sure?

538

Josh: Okay, great.

539

what else should we be

considering as we're figuring

540

out how to manage thirds well?

541

Jessica: I wanna offer a couple

more common things, for couples,

542

in terms of managing thirds.

543

A couple more examples, and

then move on to examples of

544

mismanaging thirds in early dating.

545

two other examples within couples.

546

One is, relating to a child,

so co-parents relating to a

547

child.

548

another example that Stan gives

in my favorite resource of his,

549

which is Your Brain on love.

550

We're gonna link to that in case you wanna

really deep dive into these concepts.

551

One parent is taking care of the kiddo.

552

The kiddo is getting more and more

dysregulated, both parent and child.

553

Their voices are getting

higher and louder.

554

The other parent, their nervous system

probably starts to get dysregulated.

555

and so they may come in and essentially

try to fix the issue by going straight

556

to the child and trying to distract

the child to help the child regulate.

557

And this is actually a mismanaged

third because, in that couple

558

bubble, ideally the partners are

there as master regulators of

559

one another, first and foremost.

560

and so the idea would be to go

to the other parent and help

561

them regulate in some way, maybe,

giving them a hug or telling a

562

joke or asking if they need help.

563

One thing that can be common, and

you and I have experienced this as

564

we've been learning, how to parent

together, is if a parent's feeling

565

pretty dysregulated by all the noise

and everything, it's really easy to

566

come in and just like pick the child up.

567

But the way that can land for the

other partner is pretty invalidating

568

or kind of like a message of like,

you're not doing it right, which is

569

dysregulating for the entire system.

570

Yeah.

571

And so we have really learned to come in,

the parent who's not on, primary childcare

572

duty to come in and maybe come close.

573

We come close to one another and check in.

574

We put a hand on each other.

575

How are you doing?

576

Would you like any help?

577

and that ends up helping us be

much more, regulated and able

578

to handle whatever's happening.

579

Josh: it's such a, remarkable difference

between the other parent coming in and

580

picking up the child without asking if

you, the person needs help versus coming

581

in and saying, would you like some help?

582

Yes.

583

Would, would you please be

with them for five minutes?

584

Let take a minute to breathe.

585

It's like the same thing is ultimately

happening, but it feels so different.

586

Uh, yeah,

587

Jessica: absolutely.

588

In

589

Josh: And it, in, in some ways,

this one feels like a subtle

590

point, but a really important one

if you're parenting, together.

591

Jessica: Yeah.

592

And I know for myself, I do not feel like

I got many models of kind of the unified

593

front parents helping each other regulate.

594

And so this again, did not feel

intuitive to me, but once I

595

learned it, I was like, oh yeah,

596

Josh: Oh yeah, that does

feel better actually.

597

Oh yeah.

598

Okay,

599

Jessica: great.

600

And my partner certainly

responds better to it.

601

You don't like me just fixing it.

602

Josh: but I made it better.

603

Uh, yeah, I've done that too.

604

Jessica: Yeah.

605

So, that is one other example of,

managing or mismanaging thirds.

606

And the last one I'll give because

we're gonna have an episode on it,

607

is, In-laws relating to in-laws.

608

This one, again, super common.

609

Couples can really struggle with

how one or both partners relates

610

to their family of origin around

particularly really big life milestones.

611

so in our episode with Cody Gold.

612

Uh, one of the clinicians on our

team, we're gonna be talking about

613

how to relate to in-laws generally,

but also when, bringing a baby

614

home or when planning a wedding.

615

Josh: Yeah.

616

Jessica: So much comes up in family

systems and, it's a really key

617

time to show that you are first and

foremost dedicated to the safety

618

and security of your relationship

with your partner, not the old

619

scripts from your family of origin.

620

Josh: Yep.

621

So important.

622

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

623

Okay.

624

Cool.

625

Shall we talk about managing

thirds and early dating?

626

Josh: Let's do it.

627

Jessica: So I've been thinking about

this because one of my passions

628

in life is thinking about how,

Stan's work applies to dating.

629

Yeah.

630

Because I really want to help

people practice secure functioning

631

principles from jump Yeah.

632

So that we have more secure

functioning couples in the world.

633

Josh: I love that.

634

Jessica: So I wanna give some

examples that I thought of, of

635

mismanaging thirds in early dating.

636

Josh: I just wanna say before you

jump into these examples, this is

637

a really interesting area for me

because you don't have agreements Yes.

638

About this.

639

Yes.

640

In early dating.

641

Jessica: Yes.

642

Josh: And you don't necessarily know

if you want to prioritize this person

643

over family, friends, et cetera.

644

Jessica: So,

645

Absolutely.

646

Josh: I'm very curious to hear

what you have to say about this.

647

Jessica: was my thought too.

648

I was like, is it a thing?

649

Josh: Yeah.

650

Jessica: But I think that we, without

making a big agreement, I think we

651

can signal that we have the capacity

to prioritize the other person.

652

Josh: Mm-hmm.

653

Jessica: And we can also signal

that we do not have the capacity.

654

So, one example of, mismanaged

thirds in early dating is having

655

your device out on a date.

656

Josh: yeah, yeah.

657

That's

658

Jessica: Yeah,

659

Josh: a great example.

660

Yeah.

661

Jessica: Yeah.

662

Another is rescheduling a date or dates

because something came up at work.

663

Now is that gonna happen

periodically and it's really

664

important that you attend to work?

665

Yes.

666

And you've, dear listener, potentially

dated one or more of these people I

667

certainly have where it's like, it

seems like very little is required

668

to have them reschedule a date.

669

Josh: It's not like a, oh, that happened

once and it was a really rare occasion

670

It's like it happens more than once.

671

And

672

Jessica: also how somebody

communicates about that is so telling.

673

Right.

674

So a very common thing I hear from my

clients is like, yeah, they said they

675

were sick and needed to cancel the

date and then didn't offer any other.

676

Reassurance that they wanted to

get together again, or any other

677

potential dates to get together.

678

So it really, the communication

also communicates, yeah, you're

679

not really my priority here.

680

Josh: I don't, I don't really care

enough to like toss the ball back over.

681

Yeah, yeah,

682

Jessica: yeah,

683

Josh: Another example

684

Jessica: of mismanaging thirds in

early dating, is paying more attention

685

to your surroundings than the actual

person that you're on the date with.

686

so maybe you are out at, a really

great museum and your date is really

687

just like engrossed in the art,

but not really engaging with you.

688

Josh: Oh,

689

so, so, sorry.

690

I, I don't know why that's funny to me,

but it, it just, I'm just picturing the

691

person just like, standing in front of

the painting, just staring at it, not

692

saying anything in their date, just like

standing next to 'em and be like, what?

693

Yeah.

694

That would be, that would be rough.

695

Yeah.

696

Yeah.

697

Jessica: You know, uh, my, my like

nuanced caveat here is, if your date

698

is neurodivergent and does a lot of,

mono tropism, so like hyper-focusing

699

on one thing at a time, particularly

special interests, it might be

700

hard for them in really stimulating

environments to split their attention.

701

Josh: Mm-hmm.

702

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

703

so this is one where you might wanna get

to know them a little bit to figure out

704

what's going on, especially if there are

other places where you feel like they are

705

able to give you their full attention.

706

Josh: That's a great caveat.

707

I like that.

708

Jessica: Another mismanaged thirds

in early dating, that I've heard

709

of on both sides actually is

bringing an animal to the date.

710

Josh: Oh, interesting.

711

Yeah.

712

Jessica: when I say I've heard about

this on both sides, I've heard

713

about it from the animal, um, owner.

714

Did we say owner from the animal?

715

Josh: I shouldn't be on this date.

716

What am I doing here?

717

I wanna be at

718

Jessica: is awkward.

719

No, no, no.

720

The animal guardian

721

Josh: great.

722

Jessica: And the non-animal guardian.

723

the date Uhhuh.

724

And, and I've also heard

of it on both sides, where

725

people are like, it was great.

726

They brought their dog and

then other people who are like,

727

yeah, it was a little weird.

728

They were like, just really

focused on their dog.

729

Josh: right.

730

That's the danger of it, sometimes

you then hyperfocus on the dog or

731

like the dog needs a lot of attention.

732

Right.

733

Depending on what's happening in the

environment or the dog's temperament.

734

Yes.

735

That then you can't actually

focus on being with your date.

736

Jessica: Yes.

737

Some of my clients have animals who

have special needs, and so part of what

738

I work on them with, if they have the

capacity, is, to make sure that they've

739

actually like built into their life and

schedule pockets of time where they have

740

care for their animal, so that they're

both more flexible in terms of when they

741

can go on dates and also that they, they

don't necessarily need to bring their

742

like, highly anxious dog on the date.

743

Josh: And I, I'm like you're

saying, right, people have

744

different feelings about this.

745

Some people might be psyched to have

you bring your dog on your date.

746

Yeah.

747

So just like any third, there might

be some negotiation needed, or at

748

least like informed consent, right?

749

Like, I'd love to meet

up and bring my dog.

750

Is that okay with you dog?

751

Mm-hmm.

752

Heads up they are somewhat

anxious sometimes.

753

And so, you know, then your, your

data has a chance to, say yes or no.

754

Jessica: Yes, absolutely.

755

I think that's great.

756

you can start, honing your negotiation

skills early and I would just

757

encourage you also to notice,

okay, am I able to be present on

758

the date if my animal's with me?

759

And if the answer is no, see if

you can figure something out.

760

Yeah.

761

Josh: That's a good point.

762

Jessica: one last example I'll give

of mismanaging thirds in early dating,

763

talking excessively about one's

narcissistic co-parent on a date.

764

Josh: Oh yeah.

765

Oh, I can, yeah, I can hear it.

766

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

767

Mm-hmm.

768

Mm-hmm.

769

Josh: Yeah.

770

You're turning, essentially turning

your date into your therapist,

771

Jessica: Rather

772

Josh: than like being focused on

your connection with this person.

773

Jessica: yeah.

774

You're turning them into your therapist.

775

You're also still super fixated

on your last relationship.

776

you know, and this doesn't have

to be a narcissistic co-parent.

777

It can be just your last, your last

778

Josh: your

779

Jessica: partner.

780

Uh, it could be work, it could

be like whatever it is that you

781

might be, prone to fixate on.

782

that can really leave a person

feeling like, okay, are we on a date?

783

Or like you're saying,

is it a therapy session?

784

And are you actually

available for a relationship?

785

Josh: Makes sense.

786

So is the answer for all

these examples, don't do that

787

Jessica: Kind of, uh, like, like, yeah.

788

Let's go through the what

would be managing thirds.

789

Well, uh, on your dates,

please put your phone away,

790

Josh: it

791

Jessica: put it on do not disturb

if you need to reschedule a date.

792

Really, number one, avoid

doing it as much as possible.

793

And if you do, beg forgiveness

and communicate, I'm still really

794

excited to go on a date with you.

795

If that's true, here's another option and

try not to do it again, in short order.

796

And if you're finding that you

really have to reschedule a lot

797

of dates, I wanna encourage you to

look at how your life is set up.

798

another thing I work on with

my single clients is like,

799

let's look at your calendar.

800

Let's pretend you have a partner.

801

Where do you hang out with them in

802

Josh: if you don't have any

time to hang out with them?

803

Dating's gonna be hard.

804

Jessica: Gonna be hard.

805

And then we actually do carve out

some time that they would eventually

806

spend with their partner that they

then spend going on dates or swiping

807

on apps or coming to dating therapy

or dating coaching, whatever it is.

808

when you're on dates to go back to

what is managing thirds well in early

809

dating, make sure that you're going

to situations where you can give

810

your partner your full attention.

811

So if you are, mesmerized by

art, maybe don't go to a museum.

812

I know that's a very silly example,

but if there are settings where

813

you're like, I'm gonna be a

little bit too overstimulated or

814

over-focused for

815

Josh: a loud concert, I will struggle

'cause I I will be so overstimulated.

816

Absolutely.

817

Uh, it'd be very hard

for me to be present.

818

Jessica: Yeah.

819

There are settings we go out

to and I'm like, are you okay?

820

Josh: No, no, I'm not.

821

Jessica: And I have learned that it

is about the setting and not, 'cause

822

you don't want to talk to me, which is

823

Josh: which is why we didn't go to

those settings in our early dating.

824

Jessica: That's right.

825

That's right.

826

We spent, I

827

Josh: there's, there's many reasons.

828

'cause we're also dating in

the pandemic, so we weren't

829

gonna to any concerts indoors.

830

Jessica: But

831

Josh: that's, that's

neither here nor there.

832

Jessica: Um, but yeah, set

yourself up well on dates.

833

And I think this also goes

back to like your lifestyle.

834

I recommend.

835

people be cautious about going

straight from work to a date.

836

Mm.

837

I know that it can be hard to squeeze

everything in, but see if you can have

838

a little bit of a pause between the two,

because a lot of people go from a work

839

setting into a date and kind of bring

that energy and it's not a particularly

840

intimate, undivided attention energy.

841

Josh: mm-hmm.

842

Jessica: so again, like really look

at your schedule, your context to

843

make sure that you are bringing

full presence where you can.

844

Josh: presence.

845

Um,

846

Jessica: we've already talked

about managing animals.

847

get some care.

848

Check in with your date, see if it's okay.

849

and then.

850

In terms of like talking excessively

about an X or work or whatever.

851

I think the key there is just noticing

how much a space you're taking up in

852

the conversation and b, how much you're

asking, questions of the other person.

853

lastly, really noticing, oh, am I

mostly just talking about one thing?

854

Mm-hmm.

855

Josh: Mm-hmm.

856

Jessica: and see if you can

balance things a bit more.

857

Josh: I imagine also if you're really

struggling to not talk about the person,

858

there's maybe some internal inquiry

to do, like, oh, I write it a date.

859

Yeah.

860

Jessica: Yes.

861

Josh: Or am I still kind of hung

up on this person and I need a

862

little bit more time to, to heal.

863

Jessica: Great point.

864

Yeah.

865

And I think also along those lines, if

you find that you are doing what's called

866

trauma dumping on dates, you're really

sort of sharing a lot really early that's

867

of more of a traumatic, quality, then,

consider getting some therapeutic support.

868

if you're talking a lot about

something, you may need to

869

talk a lot about something.

870

It's just you wanna make sure you're

talking to the right person and

871

signaling to somebody you're trying to

build a relationship with that you also

872

are emotionally available for them.

873

Okay.

874

Josh: Yeah.

875

Love it.

876

Jessica: Is

877

Josh: there anything else about managing

thirds that we wanna get into today?

878

Jessica: I don't think so.

879

Josh: Let's give them a heads up

of where we're headed then in this

880

Jessica: then in this series?

881

Yeah, absolutely.

882

So the next episode in this series is

with Shea Burnett, our, resident, betrayal

883

trauma expert, one of them at least.

884

Uh, and they're gonna be speaking

about basically how to heal when

885

you've gone through a betrayal.

886

the episode after that will be Cody Gould,

another, relationship center clinician,

887

all about managing in-laws effectively,

particularly around things like

888

bringing baby home or getting married.

889

And then lastly, Nicole Penrod

will be returning to speak

890

about ethical non-monogamy.

891

What does it mean to manage

thirds well, if there are other

892

partners, um, and how to, how to

do that, not well, uh, uh, as well

893

Josh: in case you needed to know.

894

Jessica: Love

895

Josh: that.

896

Well, I'm very excited for those episodes.

897

I think that's gonna be really juicy.

898

That's all for today.

899

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

900

this [email protected]

901

slash podcast.

902

Jessica: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

903

[email protected].

904

We love hearing from you.

905

Josh: If you'd like to work with one

of the talented clinicians on our

906

team, go to relationship center.com

907

to apply for a free 30

minute consultation.

908

Jessica: You can also sign up

for a monthly email of our best

909

[email protected]

910

slash newsletter.

911

Josh: And if something in this

episode touched you, will you share

912

it with a friend that helps us

reach more sweet humans like you.

913

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you would

leave us a rating and review wherever

914

you listen to podcasts and be sure to hit

subscribe so you never miss an episode.

915

Josh: Until next time,

916

Jessica: We love you too.

917

Josh: Bye.

918

Jessica: Beep beep, beep, beep, beep.

919

Josh: uh, very good.

920

Very good.

921

Very good.

922

Jessica: Goodbye.

923

Josh: Goodbye.