How can church leaders introduce change and new spiritual practices in resistant congregations? In this episode of the Pivot Podcast, Dr. Jinna Jin shares stories, strategies, and encouragement for overwhelmed pastors.

As an experienced church consultant and professor, Jinna discusses why commitment to spiritual practices is essential for discerning God's leading in a rapidly changing culture. She shares how practices like dwelling in the Word slowly transformed leaders in one church, and why the most resistant people are often leaders themselves.

Jinna also explains how pursuing change raises crucial questions of congregational identity and vision. What can churches hold onto, and what might they need to let go of to engage a new generation or neighbors? In the midst of the uncertainty of change, she urges leaders to model God's unchanging peace and tend to their own mental, spiritual and relational health. Her biggest piece of advice for overwhelmed leaders? Find a supportive learning community to journey with.

Full of stories and practical wisdom, this conversation will encourage and equip pastors and lay leaders to faithfully navigate change for the sake of the church's participation in God's mission.

Resources mentioned in this episode: Dwelling in the Word PDF

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Jinna Jin: And then he said, whenever I met my neighbors, I was so busy talking about my church, sharing gas, gas bills, and giving them a trick. But I never listened to my neighbors. So it was my first time and I was like, Thank God. And as he shared the story, as you imagine, that was like really private moment. And then we practice and practice. And then actually he actually said one more thing. He said, um, we Christians, we elders are so bad at listening. I realized I didn't need to lecture anything, right. So although it took some time, um, I heard that, uh, eventually the entire church actually started the practice of dwelling Lord together.

Terri Elton: Today on the show, we explore how to introduce new spiritual practices in a community, especially when they don't think they particularly need it. Hi, I'm Terri Elton, and I'm joined today by Alicia Granholm. Welcome to the Pivot Podcast, the podcast where we explore how to follow God into a faithful future by equipping all of God's people to love and lead in the way of Jesus. Hello.

Alicia Granholm: Our guest today is Doctor Jinna Jin. Jinna has a PhD in Practical Theology and is a coach, researcher, and teacher for congregational leadership with a focus on engaging with changing contemporary culture and context. She is also an adjunct professor of Practical theology at Fuller Theological Seminary, and Director of Leadership and a consultant at the Missional Network. Welcome, Jinna. We are so happy to have you with us.

Jinna Jin: Thank you for having me.

Alicia Granholm: We're excited. Jinna, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your ministry and maybe share a little bit about how you got involved in exploring how to lead change in congregations today?

Jinna Jin: So, um, in one sentence, if I define my work, is I'm a practical theologian, people may define, um, differently, the practical theology, but for me part is about discerning God's work and joining his mission as a community. So discerning and joining God's work means understanding current practices and then discern and shape new praxis, which means changes. This means my work is about leading or helping leaders to lead changes in communities. So I do teach, consult, coach this type of practical theology. So some of my work has been, um, about the church consulting with my colleague Arlene Roxborough and Mark Lawrenson, we helped church community to discern and shape their new practices. So and then also I lead pastoral leader, um, clergy learning communities to help clergy to learn and practice different leadership, to bring changes and shape their new practices in their congregations.

Alicia Granholm: Jinna, how did you get involved in that kind of work in ministry?

Jinna Jin: I think when you do the practical theology, it is really easy to meet a lot of, um, leaders at the field. And then whenever you meet the leaders at the field. Every single people, every single leaders are struggling between the church and the rapidly changing culture. So because my work and my theology, my and my training, it is really kind of natural to connect with those leaders. So, um, that was another way to say. And then, um, because I met really good people, great mentor and then great network who already been in this kind of ministry. So I was invited. And then at first I started as a translator between white professor and then Korean congregation. Right. And as I do that, um, one of my mentor paused and then looked at me and saying, Jinna, now it's your time to lecture. And then without even thinking twice, I just started to teach and I realized, oh, I'm not a translator anymore. So that's how I kind of naturally and digging into start into the the ministry.

Alicia Granholm: I love the way the Spirit of God can move and surprise us at times.

Jinna Jin: Yes. Yeah.

Terri Elton: So Alicia and I recently heard you, uh, present at a conference that we were at. And one of the things that stood out for me is that in some of your consulting work, you invited ministry leaders who didn't want to engage in spiritual practices to say, nope. If you're going to work with us in this leading change, we're going to do spiritual practices. So help us understand why our spiritual practice is so important. When you're beginning to help congregations try these new things, why do you do that?

Jinna Jin: So I think we need to think about why congregation need or want to try new things. So because it is not easy. And then no one wants to try new things for fun in terms of the congregation, right? Because it costs a lot. There are different reasons why trying new things. Uh, there are different, uh, many reasons why you want to try new things. But if the reason for trying new things is discern what God is doing, because God always does new things, and the reason for trying new things is to be changed according to God's work, then spiritual practices are not only important and not just important only. Rather it is essential. Without practice, it is almost impossible to discern God and His work, and it is almost impossible to be changed, I believe. And then people often think that we can start from a clean plate, right? However, wherever we are, we are already practicing theory, late in practice, already in our daily life, which we call praxis, and the current praxis form and shape us is James Smith said, you are what you love, you are what you do. And also a congregation is what they are doing. Does trying new things means we are shifting our practices. We are shifting what we are doing. Thus we are changing who we are. So when we change who we are, it takes formation, not just, you know, one surgery and formation always requires practice, practice, practice. Right. So I don't use we are going to we are going to do a new spiritual practice. I never use that word because that will trick a lot of people. Right? But that's the plan that we are going to do. So yeah.

Alicia Granholm: Oh, I love how you, uh, say that, Jinna. And I'm so curious if you could share, you know, some of the, uh, challenges that you've observed, uh, in congregations as they, um, maybe even before or as you, uh, first meet them, you know, uh, some of the challenges that they're having as they're trying to engage contemporary culture today. What what are some of the challenges that you're seeing right now?

Jinna Jin: Well, there are too many challenges. I mean, you can name it, right? But I think the most significant challenge is that we are facing in terms of culture, contemporary culture is that we are so confused. Because the world is changing. Not just fast, too fast. Even when we think of Covid 19, the Covid 19 pandemic brought too many changes in our daily lives. Out of all these too many changes, we are all confused. And even in church setting, people expect their leaders to fix this confusion. But truth is that leaders are not that different. They are confused too. So when we get confused, we feel disoriented and our anxiety level way goes way up. And then when the anxiety level is high, we are so lost. So I observed many cases that because of high anxiety caused from rapid cultural changes, people make irrational decisions. Some congregations get defensive about the new work, some leaders get stuck with old strategies, and a lot of people seeks to. Quick fix. And which would never provide a real solution. And all of these hinder for us to discern what God is doing. So we know and we believe that God is faithful. He is doing his work. But this confusion makes us feel the world is bigger than God. So I think out of all the challenges that our status of being confused is the most challenge we are facing.

Alicia Granholm: Thank you so much for sharing that, because I definitely observed the disorientation. But I think you're right about right. Like even above that is the confusion. And, uh, you know, I think especially our culture is very hardwired to, uh, like, okay, let me Google it. Uh, let me YouTube it, like, let's what? Like, let me find the solution. It's out there. It's got to be out there. And I just like real quick like, let's find it, you know, uh, and it's it's just not that simple.

Terri Elton: Yeah, totally. So I think in addition to that, another obstacle is congregations have their own culture, their own way of doing things, they preference like, well, we've always done it that way. And that means x, y, z. Right? And different traditions, different, um, denominations, you know, whether it's a really strict, you know, denomination or really free church denomination, it doesn't matter. They still have these cultures and practices. What's your, uh, input or what would you say to a leader that's saying, okay, my culture isn't really open to spiritual practices. And. I don't know how to get him to do that. Right. How to invite them in other than hiring you to come. Right? Right. Which might be one option, but how would you help leaders say, here's how you could get started. Here's some things you could do to just test the water and and to work on an openness to this kind of work.

Jinna Jin: I think first you have to ask, why do you want to practice the spiritual practice together as a community? And then probably there was tons of questions. Right. But then if the reason could communicate with the congregation. And if the congregation is understanding of what leader is offer, there is chance to practice together. Let's chance to start together. And then the other thing, as we all know, um, we have to start really small. You don't want to start with a big right? When you start too big, that will threaten all the people. So, um, if you're asking about that, how to start? I will say start small, not threatening way with lots of communication and conversation. And then there will be, uh, people who is willing to take the risk.

Alicia Granholm: Jinna, have you found ways to identify or to help, you know, congregational leaders identify who those people might be that would be willing to try something new?

Jinna Jin: So I think the question is really, um, somehow without. Our bad intention is very hierarchical.

Jinna Jin: Who?

Jinna Jin: Who should define. Identify those people. Is it? Leaders. Or so. If I always encourage leaders that if you have some new plan and then if you are willing to start small, I think the leaders should communicate with the entire, uh, congregation. It has to open because this is a try. You never know what's going to happen. The leader doesn't mean to change everything at once, right? So you will just announce everybody what's going to happen. And then you could just take the volunteers and then you will see really unexpected volunteer will show up. Some people say like no, the person is too newbies. They he can't do that, right? But that's not a good reason. Who knows what spirit is doing. So the identifying the people might not be leader's job, but if no one shows up, that's a different story. Yeah. Then, uh, the leaders could gather together and then pray over and then discern together if this is a right timing or if leader could start as a small or, you know, there's different ways. So I think that's a little different. But then the idea identifying the groups or people by leader alone is kind of risky move.

Terri Elton: Well. And I was thinking as you were talking, connecting that with the confusion part. I think sometimes. We think of. Confusion. I don't know what to do so I YouTube or I Google, right? Okay. But if we're a congregation centered on following God. In. However, in in its simplest form, the equivalent is not getting a quick fix from a book or or seven steps. It's it's really saying when I'm confused what I do, I go back to the source. Right. So how might. So let's say no one shows up. So I love that. So leaders what does this mean? What does it mean if we just take a month and pray about it?

Jinna Jin: Yeah.

Terri Elton: Like I have a can I have a quick story? Yeah. I was when I was in a Synod office, I was working with a larger congregation that had been through some hard times to get a new pastor. So one of the guys on the the head of the team that was working on this had worked in the government and some different places. So he had done a lot of hiring and things like that, and we got ready. It was right before Christmas and the person, we had one candidate and they were going to come. And the candidate pulled out like three days before they were supposed to come. And this was the pivotal moment, actually, of the whole process. And so he calls me and he tells me what happened. And he says, before I had to say anything said, and if we were an HR committee for my work, this would be a bummer. But you know what? We're a church, so I'm going to get up on Sunday and rather than say, here's our candidate, I'm going to say, you know what? Our candidate pulled out and I'm going to invite you for the next month because it's Christmas season, we're all going to take a break. And I invite you to pray with us. And in January, we're going to pick this up. And it happened like that. It was amazing. But he came up with it.

Jinna Jin: Mhm.

Terri Elton: Right. But there's an example to me of like who are we. We're people of prayer. So in that moment of confusion, or I thought we were going one way and it got disrupted. But I think that's what I hear you encouraging the leadership to do.

Jinna Jin: Yeah. So in the confusion what my role as a leader, is it my role to fix. Yes. Or is it my role to discern what God is doing? That's huge difference. I love that, right. So if we we we are called to be fix and fix all the problem. I'm not a good leader. I don't know how to solve all the problems. Right, right, right.

Alicia Granholm: There's too many.

Jinna Jin: I don't know. Anybody could be perfect leader. Who? Who is God, right. But then if our job is discern God, what God is doing, even in the confusion, then that's a totally different story. That's why we could pray together. We could take some time. That's why it is okay not to see anybody show up in the volunteer pool. Right? Although it's kind of disappointing. Right?

Alicia Granholm: Yes. And. Right. Because, uh, if we believe that God is not only working in our lives, but also in the lives of the people in our congregation, and then as our in our congregation as a whole, then. Right. The invitation is to listen some more. Right? And to just and continue to discern, um, Jinna, how, uh, what are some ways that you have seen, uh, that are helpful for leaders to, you know, maintain a balance between honoring tradition, um, but also embracing new practices to engage with contemporary culture.

Jinna Jin: Uh. So. I think that question is actually asking a little bit different. So let me let me start this way. I'm not sure if seeking balance is something that we want to seek. I'm not sure if balance is our goal. So I want to encourage us to reconsider what is our goal and why we need to care about balance. Maybe balance is important because if we push change too fast and too much, that causes a lot of harm, then transformation that cause more loss than gain. So then in that case, I can say, you know, any changes should start from small step. As you know, there's a lot of study that really changes. Almost always start from the small or margin, right. And then I don't think I can um, I don't think I need to explain about that more, but I would like to make a note about the honoring tradition. Tradition in terms of in terms of leading changes. So almost every time when I try to introduce a new action or help them to see what changes they need needed, I got questions like, are you trying to ruin our tradition? Or are you? We've been we've been doing this way for decades. Are you trying to, you know, get rid of that. At first, I thought there was question of balancing out that their tradition and changes. But however I spend more time, I've learned that these questions were not about tradition. It was about their identity. So because of human nature, we often consider changes or change as a threat, right? People naturally refuse changes that even after we understand. Yeah, we need that changes. But it feels like a threat. But if that's a threat. A threat to what? The new, new trying new practice in congregation is not threatening our physical lives. But people often feel that new action and change is a threat to their identity. So that happens all the time. So let me share a little bit of example. I mean, um, in immigrant immigrant churches this is always a core challenges a lot of immigrant churches are struggling with, um, when it comes to the next generation issue. So when younger generation refused to culture, speech or practice, the older generation often wants to keep it and also want to young one. The young, younger generation to keep the practice together. And older generation claims that their culture, spiritual practice are what makes us who we are. It's our tradition. But younger generation argues that's not the culture we want to keep. That's right. Yeah. So, for example, Korean immigrant churches, older generation who say we need to stay as a Korean immigrant church and younger generations say, no, uh, we want to be a Korean American American church. Or they say, like, can we just be a church? Not even tag along with a Korean who is right? I don't think there is a there is a there is a right and universal answer. I think it is congregation's job to figure out who they are and then who they want to be. So, um. So because this is identity work, we need a lot of conversation, reflect together as community. And then I could also want to say that identity is not fixed. As an Asian, I see identity. Identity is something in relationship. When we got married, I have different identity. When we have kids, we'll have a different identity too willingly or unwillingly, right? So traditionally, church has been so settled and fixed. So we welcome you as long as you follow our culture. That may work before, but I don't think that will work anymore in the rapid changing culture. So when church wants to embrace next next generation or people from different culture, you cannot remain same. The core identity of church, which is community of God, who is doing God's work. It's not negotiable. But then how we express our love to God and people. How you communicate, how you relate others have to be changed. So, for example, if I invite you over to my place as a friend, I'll ask you to take off your shoes in my house. Because this is an Asian household, right? So you have to take your shoes off. Maybe you are the person, people who always wear your shoes anywhere. But then once you are in the relationship with me, get invitation to my house. Now you become a person who can take off shoes time to time. So your core identity as a faithful partner to God get changed? No. But do you need to change some of tradition and might impact some of your identity? Maybe so. So I think it is really crucial for congregation to understand who they are and how. And what and what kind of identity. Um, they want to pursue. And then they need to recognize and then learn how to communicate with each other. And then what kind of tradition are crucial? What kind of traditions could let go? That's all among the, um, conversation. Right. So with my experience, I've never heard that elders and leaders said no about practicing new action when they are under they when they understand their core identity. And then when they understand this new practice will help them to embrace their younger generation or neighbors better. And they always say, yes, that was my experience. Yeah.

Alicia Granholm: And I can't help but think about how, like, the more we trust that the Holy Spirit is active in other people's lives, not just ours in our particular way, right then the more able we are to. Have room for the freedom of right, like you contextualizing how you relate to God and how you experience God in your life. Because I don't know, it seems like we're all pretty unique. Yeah. And so while there might be, you know, common practices that we have, uh, the difference is particularly just speaking about generations, uh, not even just geographical, you know, differences that we have. Um, culturally, um, we we we are different. You know, there are differences. And so, um, I, you know, I just have experientially seen how the the more we are able to trust the Holy Spirit in people's lives, uh, to do the work of the Holy Spirit in their life. Uh, the the more we are able to let people kind of experience God in ways that are probably different than how we do.

Jinna Jin: Yeah, yeah.

Terri Elton: And I think I was thinking two things as when you were talking. To know about identity and the dynamic nature of that. Right. You talked about getting married and you didn't quit being you, but you. You opened yourself up right to your spouse and and that together. I just became a grandma. Have you heard that, Alicia? Alicia knows that I. I'm a new grandma. And and so I think about, like, it's taken me a while to, like, own being a grandma. Yeah. And and, uh, put that grafted, if you will, into my identity. And yet. It's been super easy every time I see that little grandbaby. Yeah, right. It's it's it's like this part is hard on my head, but it's not hard to love this human.

Jinna Jin: Yeah.

Terri Elton: And and so as those things happened over time, it's been 11 months now. I'm getting used to the name.

Jinna Jin: Yeah.

Terri Elton: Um, it feels more like gift than loss.

Jinna Jin: Yeah, that's exactly the point. I mean, that's.

Terri Elton: What I was thinking as you were talking, right? Like, at first it feels awkward. Super awkward. Just like. And this is when you were talking. I was thinking, just like when maybe we come to your house and we have to take off our shoes, or we experience somebody else's way of faith that may be different than ours, and we open ourselves to be curious and come in, but it's not natural, and it feels a little different. And yet to just experience it and to wonder and to say, oh, that's really interesting and not critique it or not say it's bad or good or whatever. And so those two pieces, and when they come together. I think, like as you were telling the story, what if the elders could hear from the younger generations? All right. What would a church like that look like?

Jinna Jin: Yeah.

Terri Elton: You know, how would you imagine some of these things from our cultural heritage that we've, um, held on to, like. Okay, I'm Norwegian and Swedish, and my immigrant grandparents and great grandparents wanted to worship in their own language because they were afraid of the integration, and the church was the place that held it. Well, the church didn't have to hold it. There could be other ways that could hold that, and there are some places that it still gets held, but it gets opened. Yeah, right. Maybe everybody gets to bring some of their heritage in. Not just the Norwegians and Swedish, the Germans and the Koreans and the. Yeah, right. And I think there's imagination there if you're open to it. Right.

Jinna Jin: Yeah. So I mean, it is like the Asian culture really, um, value harmony and harmony often. Yeah. Be a trap. Yeah. Right. Because we need to honor our tradition. We have to. Balancing out the balance itself is really important. Value and virtue in in Asian context. But but if we seek the balance balance only. And if that's our priority, that gets really tricky because we are just close the door for God's coming and going. And then, um, as you said, Terri, um, the one thing that that I always do in my church consulting work is I always create a place where I invite the teenagers and then sit them with a 60, 70 years old elders all together, and I force them to talk to each other. Yeah. And then I don't need to do the lecture of how we could understand the next generation because, like, looking at them, they are, I mean, like, they're energetic. They're they're future of the church. They the elders love them. Yeah. Right. So that kind of experience, that kind of space is really, um. Open the people to understand how God works, I think.

Terri Elton: So do you have any stories of congregations that have experienced some transformation as, as you've worked with them that maybe were resistant to some of this work and then kind of went, oh, this is kind of fun at some point.

Jinna Jin: Yeah, well, there's a lot of stories, but, um, here's one of one of my favorite one. So this work was at the megachurch in Korea. And then I as I introduced dwelling in the world. There are many, many cultural issues, issues there because like, the practice itself is like a lot of complex in terms of Korean culture. But, um, one of the thing, one of the things that people don't like was the listening part, because in the in the world you get to speak probably 1 to 2 minutes. And then you have to listen entire time. And then even the time, the wanted two minute, you have to share what you heard. Not what you are thinking, right? So, uh, there's a lot of, um, hesitancy and then I don't like and then blah, blah. But then, um, I observed that the leaders were having more difficult times than lay people about the practicing that, uh, the dwelling in the world. And then maybe they are so used to speak more than listen, I don't know, but one time I let the I let the dwelling in the world with elder committee, elder board committee. That's like the that committee makes most important decision over the church and then has most authority other than the senior pastor. And then their average age is over 60s. So just imagine the young female. Yeah. Leader oh my.

Terri Elton: Gosh.

Jinna Jin: With all male 67. Wow. Elders. And then uh, they never heard about they just literally, um, started practicing the dwelling in the world. And then um, they, they were having a hard time and at one time, um. I just really make sure that everybody keep up the time, right? So if somebody start share what they think other than what they heard, and I will gently stop them gently. And then if they goes more than two minutes, I will gently stop them and saying time's up. And then as we do that, the finally one of the elders who actually he was an executive member at a major company in Korea, right. He's really higher status and then stood up and left and saying, I can't do this. How come you don't give us enough time to share? He was pretty upset. But I was. I was really late. It was a panic attack. But then I tried to calm down and I finished the drilling the world. And I kept doing it. And I encourage everybody to do that. Right. And then, um, I learned that all listening was one of the most difficult practice for them. And then as we practiced and practiced, people start to learn about the dwelling and then getting better. And then one day, another elder actually shared in that elders committee meeting that as he practices in the dwelling in the world, he listening capacities getting better. And then that brings some changes in his family. And he becomes a better father because the kids feel that, oh, you listen to us, right? And then the story didn't end there. He started thank me in front of all the elders and saying that I start to listen to my neighbors. And it was my first time to ask some question to my neighbors. And then he said, whenever I met my neighbors, I was so busy talking about my church, sharing gas, gas bills, and giving them a trick. But I never listened to my neighbors. So it was my first time and I was like, Thank God. And then as he shared the story, as you imagine, that was like really private moment. And then we practice and practice. And then actually he actually said one more thing. He said, um, we Christians, we elders are so bad at listening, I realized. I didn't need to lecture anything. Right. So although it took some time, I heard that eventually the entire church actually started the practice of dwelling the word together.

Terri Elton: I love that I. I actually believe. That deep listening like you described to God and to others. Is one of the most transformative practices we have. And I think it's somewhat about a time I don't think it's just in the Korean culture. Right. I think there's particularities, right, that you're dealing with. But I think people are so longing to be heard and seen.

Jinna Jin: Yeah, that's so true.

Terri Elton: And think of a parent relate. Like how? Like that gave me chills when you said that. For a for a dad to hear his kid say that and to go, oh, wow, I could do more of that. Yeah, right. Thank you. I love that story.

Alicia Granholm: Oh, no. It's so good. Jinna, um, what would you say is the role of, um, personal spiritual growth and development, uh, in a leader's ability to be able to guide their congregation through change.

Jinna Jin: Because I made such a lot of mistakes on this area, I could share.

Alicia Granholm: Some of our best learning. Right.

Jinna Jin: Uh huh.

Jinna Jin: So when a congregation actually experienced changes, they need to deal with some sort of loss, right? I mentioned already because like most of the times, change is also means loss. Because without letting letting something go, there is no real changes. So does going through changes required moment. It is vulnerable time. It is unstable time. And I learned, and I believe that one of the best gifts that leaders could offer to congregation during this time is God's peace, God's comfort, God's faithful love, which is unchangeable and steady. So meanwhile they are going through changes, loss and not steady. There is a God's unchangeable love and peace can anchor them. Then leader can be the vessel to share the peace. But at the same time, leader can be a trigger to shake or to explore emotional bomb in the process. Yes, I've been triggered to many, so many people with my own own anxiety and fear and I failed so many times and hurt other people and hurt me because I. I thought so many times I thought my knowledge, my degree, my title, my strategy matter more than my being. Yeah. But my presence, my well-being mattered a lot. He's a leader. We have to remember our spiritual, mental, physical, emotional status, impact congregation. Yeah. So I, I see spiritual growth in a holistic way. Meaning spiritual growth includes everything mental, physical, emotional, you know, social. And leading changes in congregation. Leading changes in congregation is not only theological work, it is actually emotional, mental, physical, social work. Yeah, so we do not need to be a perfect leader. We do not. We cannot be like that. But then we need to be healthy enough to share God's peace in the difficult times. So I often remember that, um, I often recommend that if your mental wellbeing is need some therapy, please don't hesitate to take that therapy, because taking therapy session is a spiritual work.

Terri Elton: Yeah.

Terri Elton: That's right.

Jinna Jin: Yeah. For me, not only, um, the morning prayer and centering time is really crucial, but also regular exercise time is spiritual because without those times I can't regulate myself. I can be a vessel to share the God's peace, and I could. Trigger a lot of people right away.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah.

Terri Elton: Well, I love that holistic approach. And I think in the West, I don't know about other cultures, but I'll claim my own. We've been so encouraged to compartmentalize our world and and spiritual leaders, I think, get encouraged to do that as well. And it you just can't. I remember when our kids were small and I was working in children, youth and family ministry and I would be getting ready for the day and I'd be yelling at my kids, we got to get to church. We got to get to church and get in the car. And I'm like, this is so ironic.

Terri Elton: Right?

Terri Elton: Like, and I'm like, stop. Right. Take a deep breath. I'm a whole being. I'm struggling with this. Other people are struggling. This. What might that mean? Like it? Just rather than feeling shame. Yeah. It was more like, you know what? I love being on time, but I probably won't be today. Let it go. That's not the highest.

S6: Okay, exactly.

Jinna Jin: You're a human being.

Terri Elton: Exactly.

Terri Elton: Right.

Jinna Jin: But it is not okay to show up at the church and podium with that face. Yeah.

Terri Elton: Right. That's right.

Jinna Jin: That could trigger a lot of people, right?

Terri Elton: Or even I've talked to a number of our alumni who, during Covid, were way more vulnerable in their preaching or leadership because it was just, you know, the kids are right there, the the dogs right there, the whatever. Right. And they said the the positive reception that they got from people, they didn't bleed all over people like you said, they're not triggering stuff, but they were more honest. Yes. That life was hard.

S6: Yeah. Right.

Terri Elton: And this week's been hard or this time has been hard. And I think that that isn't an excuse to not take care of yourself. But I think it's it is working it out. Right, saying, okay, now you've noticed this. Now go take care of yourself.

S6: What. Yeah.

Alicia Granholm: And it's an opportunity, right, to model for sure what it looks like to follow Jesus in daily life. When life is hard for everybody, everybody. And the more transparent we can be about life is hard. And here's here are the practices or things I am doing right to remind myself of God's faithfulness and God's peace. To right, right, like be like, uh, just spiritually healthy, physically healthy, healthy, mentally healthy in the midst of the hard so that I can show up. Yeah.

Terri Elton: So. I got one question to end with. Okay. If you were to give leaders some words of wisdom, I'm not even going to use advice, but words of wisdom from both. What's gone? Well, when you've done stuff and what hasn't gone well, as they think about leading change and leading their congregations into something new, what would you give them? What what wisdom or advice would you give them?

Jinna Jin: Um, for first and foremost, I want to say you are not alone. There are so many leaders who are struggling and overwhelmed by the task between church and rapidly changing culture. It is not your fault. It doesn't mean that you are not a good leader. It is normal to feel that way because I met so many leaders who blame themselves. What if I have a better degree? What if I have, you know, more skill set? What if you know? But then, no, it's not your fault. It is a difficult task. So stop. Blame yourself. You are a good leader already. And you are not. You are not alone. And then, um, another thing I really strongly recommend is that, um, it is a really difficult job. No one can do a lot. And I really want to encourage them to find a the community. And then if all possible, learning community because, you know, software group itself is really crucial and good. But then the experiencing the changes and then going through the leading changes itself is you need to learn how to discern. How to reflect together, how to learn together. You need to know how learning actually embodies. So without those kind of community, the leaders community together to go through those kind of steps. It's going to be really difficult to navigate all by a long. So yeah, that's my that's my words.

Alicia Granholm: Yeah. I love that last, uh, bit of wisdom. Jinna, this morning on my drive in to work, I like to listen to, uh, the Bible readings and commentary on my drive in. Uh, and one of the scripture passages today was about Moses and Jethro's reminder or really recommendation to Moses. Right. Like, you can't do this alone. This isn't good for you. It's also not good for the people. You got to find a better way.

Terri Elton: You're saying we're not the first to be.

Alicia Granholm: Overwhelmed, not the first to be overwhelmed?

Terri Elton: Okay, talk about disruption.

Alicia Granholm: We're also not the first to try and do it all ourselves. And I think that's such a great reminder that not only can we not do it all ourselves, we we also need support around us. Uh, as we are trying something new and trying on new ways of being and doing things. And we need that support of people and peers and coaches and mentors and therapists and spiritual directors and all the things. So, Jinna, thank you so much for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today. It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show. And we, uh, actually have a free practice guide that can be downloaded with a handful of basic spiritual practices that we recommend for congregations that are just getting started on this journey. And it's called Navigate a New Future. You can check it out in the show notes for this episode.

Terri Elton: And to our audience, we want to say thank you for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. You can help us spread the word about pivot. You can assess like, and you can subscribe either on your favorite podcast channel or on YouTube. And, um, we would really help it if you'd leave us a review and we could hear more and appreciate, like, what sticks, what doesn't.

Alicia Granholm: So finally, the best compliment that you can give us is to share this pivot episode with a friend. This is Alicia Granholm.

Terri Elton: And Terri Elton signing off for another episode of The Pivot podcast. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.