In the first episode of this series we thought we should start with a review of leadership so far in 2022, covering some of the highs (there have been a few we promise) and lows of leadership right now. 

We share our thoughts on what’s impressing us in the leadership space, as well as the things that are causing us to get on our soapboxes:

• 03:16 – Patagonia, living their values and staying true to their purpose
• 09:47 – Gen Z, the boundary setters
• 22:00 – handling HR processes compassionately
• 26:41 – leading through the cost of living crisis
• 34:30 – the future leader – values, adaptability and wellbeing
• 43:13 – the How To... our top takeaways

As always we share our top takeaways and in this episode we discuss reframing issues into opportunities, what you can do today that has the biggest impact, lobbying for what matters, engaging with your colleagues, taking action and prioritising wellbeing.

Lee shared the example of transparent leadership from Tony Stubblebine at Medium and the statement she mentions is available here https://coachtony.medium.com/news-about-medium-staff-7d334c235789

We also talked about the parallels in our current monarchy and the storyline in To Play The King by Michael Dobbs. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/870760.To_Play_the_King

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So welcome back to series two of How to Take the Lead.

We are back with more irreverent chat, gaffs and slips even more than Liz

Truss on her routine media interviews.

Oh God, that that is something for us to aspire to, isn't it?

Oh my goodness.

Me.

How has your summer been Carrie-Ann?

My summer has been lovely.

Thank you very much.

But I'm, Yeah, I can't believe it's autumnal vibes.

We're on series two already.

Where is the time gone?

I know it feels like such a long time since we were literally practically in

our underwear recording parts of series one and now I've got all the layers on

Yeah, but what's, what's the, the latest on the reels and the tick tock?

It's sweater weather.

It's definitely sweater weather.

But yes, how was your summer break?

yeah, it's been good.

I've, um, yeah, I've been trying not to get too agitated with world events.

I've been on a little holidays and, I've been reading lots of

books and generally trying to preserve my own mental wellbeing.

I love that and hopefully, how to take the lead series two,

might provide a small release and some therapy around some of the, the not

letting world events get to you stuff.

It is brilliant to be back and we have had so many ideas and suggestions

for topics to cover, and there's certainly been a lot going on in the

news over recent weeks and I know for a fact if we'd been recording,

I would've got my soapbox out many, many, many, many, many times if I'd

soapbox would've taken a battering.

We'd have needed to get you a new one to stand on.

So I thought it would be, uh, timely if not cathartic, even if we

start this series with a bit of a check in on what we think of the state of

leadership in general, I suppose, as we head towards the end of the year.

So, Really broad question to kick us off, what, what's been impressing you

and what's really pissed you off in the world of leadership since the last series?

Let's start with the good, shall we and go for what's impressed us.

But I have to say it's been a little bit of a struggle.

I haven't been, you know, leafing through a wealth of, uh, examples of impressive

leadership, but there has been , something that that's happened that's sprung to mind

for me as an example of a leader being true to their values and their purpose.

So, Patagonia, The outdoor clothing company and their, chief Executive Ivan

Shinard has fundamentally changed the way their business runs by, moving towards,

a charitable trust and investing all profits into combating climate change,

which is a cause, which is very close to the heart of the business and something

that they feel very strongly about.

So for me, I felt like that was a really great example of a leader.

Being treated their values, considering what their passion and purpose is all

about and doing something about it.

I have to say there will be critics, so in brackets critics will argue

that as a billionaire that might be something that's much easier to do than

a your average person on the street.

But I did think, you know, it was also an opportunity for others to reflect on

what's important to them and whether there are even tiny changes that they can make

in terms of their leadership, to think about how they're delivering on their

purpose and, and sticking to their values.

so, for me, that was a definite positive example that had a bit of a feel good

factor, and I thought, you know what?

Good on him.

Good on his business.

Yeah.

Was loving that so how about you Lee?

I think that the one thing that struck me over the last

couple of months has been, um, I dunno if you use Medium at all.

Yes.

Yeah.

online magazine place the new, chief executive that did an open letter,

sharing information that he'd shared with his staff about a restructure and

some redundancies that they were making, which obviously that isn't in and of

itself positive news, but it was the style and the tone in which he handled

that bad, negative, poor news that, um, struck me because he did it with

empathy and understanding of what those colleagues of his would be going through.

He did it with, openness and transparency behind the decision making and

making it clear that it was nothing to do with any of them personally.

It was a realignment of strategies.

It wasn't even a cost saving thing.

It was a strategy realignment, which meant that they needed to remove certain posts

and he, and there was a certain part of it where he made a point about colleagues

not necessarily having the opportunity or time to say goodbye to people properly

and stuff like that, which I thought, you know, it just went that one step

further in terms of demonstrating empathy, demonstrating understanding, and I think

of course it was gonna be incredibly hard for those staff involved, but I think

it was a real signal of demonstrating how you can sensitively handle bad news

a way that still takes people with you.

Yeah, that sounds really compassionate in terms of an approach and

like you say, going that one step further, that extra mile to share something that's

really difficult, but in a way that is as compassionate and kind as possible.

We'll put it in the show notes because as I say, it is

publicly available announcement.

And I do think it's an example of good communications from leadership.

So those are, are what's impressed us.

What's really got your go over the last couple of months?

I'm gonna save some of what's got my goat cuz I've got a

feeling we might move on to that and I don't want to make the whole episode,

uh, maybe hugely political in nature.

So I'm gonna go with the center Park's debacle, that's what I'm gonna call it.

The Center Park's debacle.

So in response to the National Morning period and, the date of the Queen's

funeral, I mean, center parts could not have handled that any worse, could they?

We're closing everything and all our guests have to go and stay

somewhere else for the night.

What the actual, That was terrible.

And, uh, Then the decision was backtracked on because they could see the damage

that it had caused, but the damage had already been done, hadn't it?

Uh, that was just terrible decision making, I think from the leadership team.

And the bit extra bit that got my goat was that I feel like the PR

team there took a lot of the flack, around some of that decision making.

And I was really interested in the conversations it sparked afterwards

about sort of comms and leadership.

And the fact that, you know, poor PR and poor communications was getting

quite a lot of the blame for that, when actually it was poor decision making

and poor leadership that was the issue.

And yeah, I think there's something to be said about the fact that, there

was a team that had to be involved in, in sharing some of that and then

sharing the backtrack and trying to manage that reputational damage.

But sometimes you just can't polish that poop, can you?

That was the phrase that just came to my mind.

You can't polish a turd and.

It says a lot.

I dunno if you looked at their leadership team and the, the formation of that

leadership team and, the term pale, male and stale really shones through.

Shones?.

I don't think that's the word.

really shone through.

It does make you think about the diversity of voice and

thought in their leadership team.

It does make you think about, they obviously don't seem to have a big

presence of customer voice or customer experience at that top team, They

certainly don't seem to have any strategic communications, input and so I wonder

how much, uh, their decision making was challenged before they made the decision.

I'd hazard a guess.

Not at all.

. And if it was, then it definitely wasn't listened to, was it?

So, and I know there's stuff we talk about a lot about understanding the impacts

of the decisions that you are making.

And, and like you say, that diversity of thought and voice and that opportunity for

challenge in the process of making those decisions and that just wasn't there.

So, I'm just gonna stick with that one example cuz I think there's

gonna be opportunities for it to us to explore some others.

But for me it was definitely the center parks debacle that really

hacked me off over the summer.

How about you Lee?, I'm interested to know what's been, what's been on your mind?

It might be easier to tell you what hasn't, but, I think the one that's been

playing on my mind over the last couple of weeks, so quite a recent example

is, Steven Bartlett, The man who can do no wrong in so many people's eyes.

But he made, I thought, quite a shortsighted comment in the last

couple of weeks about generation Z which apparently I'm not in.

I realized when

I'm in the same club as you.

I'm not in it either.

But he made this comment about them being the least resilient and how his fear

for the workforce is that these younger people coming into work don't know what

hard work is and this, that and the other.

And it really disappointed me to hear someone saying that.

I don't think he's alone.

There's probably a lot of people that talk, you know, this whole talk about

snowflakes and the general view that, oh, it wasn't as hard as in my day.

And I, I think there's a bigger discussion to be had here because I

think actually fundamentally what's happening and I'm almost in awe and wish

I had had the balls at at that age to be really clear on what my boundaries

are, and I think, of course there are.

The minority of, of younger people as there are old people who will do the

bare minimum, who will look at excuses not to get involved or do work, and

you get that in all walks of life, so that, I don't think it's exclusive

to any particular age or generation.

But I do think that the younger, this generation Z, as they call it, are

just getting smarter on what they want.

Perhaps aren't following traditional career paths and they're saying, No,

I'm gonna stick up for my boundaries.

And I think that's a good thing that we should be celebrating and learning from

and thinking how can we embrace that?

And I would love to see organizations as part of their workforce strategies when

they're thinking about multi-generational workforce, thinking more about how do

we start to respect people's boundaries and make that more of a conversation

that can be discussed rather than just going, these younger people don't know,

they haven't lived, they dunno what hard work is cuz I don't think that's true.

Oh, you're pushing all the right buttons for me with this one,

Lee, because I, you know, what I'm like about boundary setting, it's one of

the topics that is dear to my heart and that I talk about quite a lot in the

work that I do through cat's pajama.

So I, I'm absolutely on board with you with the boundary setting stuff.

And like you say, slightly in awe because, you know, I think there's been a culture

previously of being always on, being available 24 7, having to always go that

the expectation, do you know what I was gonna say, of going that extra mile.

But I think the issues become that when you go that extra mile, that's just seen

as the norm rather than the exception.

So I think you are absolutely right.

Yeah.

Quite misaligned with maybe what was going on in terms of that comment there

from Steven Bartlett there because it's gone straight to the negative

rather than really looking at, at the positives of that, which is it's people

sticking up for what they believe in being true to their values, trying

to get their, I know it's a word that sometimes we roll our eyes at, but

trying to get that balance right between work, life, wellbeing, everything else.

So why, Yeah, why are we having a go at people who are being really assertive in

setting their own boundaries when it's something, I mean, I'm definitely not

going to cause it's something I talk about a lot with people about how to do that.

So good on them, but yeah.

Oh, I like that.

I think it has the risk of almost snowballing.

Cause I do think he is verbalizing what a lot of people are perhaps

saying in the workplaces.

And we seeing that now with people trying to push people to come

back into the office, for example.

So this old traditional sense of, and I think I saw something, I, I have

to admit I haven't watched it so I could be completely misquoting and

I love that.

Warning.

Warning in advance, I might be getting this totally wrong.

but saw it Simon Sinek and he was saying something similar

He was in conversation funny enough with Steven Bartlett.

On, on his podcast on Steven's podcast, wasn't he?

And he was.

He was saying the same thing, that he's worried about the resilience,

I think, of younger generations and yeah, it's sort of along the same

lines of what Steven Bartlett said.

Yeah, but once you start getting these big names that more leaders are

looking up to, and I worry that people are gonna start taking that and thinking

it's okay to be, rather than looking at the flip side, which is we need

to be looking after our people more.

We need to be respectful of boundaries.

We need to be setting our own boundaries as leaders.

I just think that we could be seeing this whole wave of people just trying

to put younger people back in their place, which I just don't think's right.

No, and particularly for us when we're talking about future

generations of leaders and what does a future leader need to look like, we need

to be open to the fact that people's lives are changing, the way that people want

to operate in the workplace is changing.

And we need to move with that rather than being stuck in this sort of old

school anyway, we're probably going into something else now, but that old

school kind of like, I must see you the hours, I'm here to believe that

you're actually working rather than trusting people and empowering people

to do what you employ them to do.

yeah.

And we know, that with younger, not, not exclusively with younger people, but

there is more of a trend to have multi careers, this kind of multi hyphenate

work environment so that people might only spend a couple of days doing this

job and that job, and therefore that expectation that they're going to go above

and beyond for one employer over another is also a bit outdated if you think about.

Absolutely.

And I think in the current climate, which I know we'll probably want to

touch on in this episode as well, the fact that we think people are gonna

be able to get by having their just their one job is probably very naive.

We're already seeing in certain industries, people having to take

second and third jobs to be able to survive and pay their bills.

So I think e even more reason for leaders to need to think

flexibly and be adaptable.

We alluded to the changes in the monarchy.

There's also been some quite big changes at the top of our government.

How are you feeling about all of that?

And I, I suppose my, my broader question is, what do you think it's signaling

from a leadership point of view?

I think it's quite interesting, isn't it actually?

Cuz I feel like there's something that's happening.

Well there's definitely something that's happening where it's more than slightly

at odds with the realism of everyday life.

When I think about the government, I don't think they're at all in

touch with how it feels to be part of society right now, um, at all.

And I think from the point of view of the government, my perception and my

observations would be we're shifting even more into that sort of hierarchy,

dictatorship, we know best style of leadership from government, from

individuals, and a collective that seem out of touch and are not listening and

not acting on what matters to people most is, is how it feels or not what matters

to the people in the majority, there may be more interested in what's happening to

the people who are the richest rather than the people who, uh, need help and support.

So I feel like there's some quite strong signals there in terms of

a style and approach to leadership that's happening within the government.

But I've reflected, and I think it is slightly at odds actually with

what's happening from my perception within the monarchy, because I feel

that although what's happened with the passing of the Queen and the traditions

that came with that, and it felt very traditional in terms of the handling

of that whole situation, I do feel like now we are moving into a space where

it feels like the royal family are lining things up for perhaps a slightly

different take on how they want to lead and how they want to be perceived.

So perhaps a slightly more modern approach, and getting the next generation

of leaders ready for that and positioning people to take on different roles

and maybe bringing it in tighter.

So there's Less royals doing stuff out there in the public

domain, so they're bringing it in and making it more close knit.

But in a way, I think that's perhaps responding to some of the people who

don't see the point in the monarchy and don't want hundreds of royals presiding

at things and, and turning up at stuff.

I feel like they are trying to respond to that in a way that's perhaps

slightly at odds with the way the government are approaching leadership.

So that, that's my summary of how I'm perceiving things at the moment, but

probably open to being completely wrong about some of that, and sadly, probably

completely right about other bits of it.

It is interesting from the monarchy point of view with perhaps some of the

more ju not junior, the younger members of the family, stepping up to more

senior roles, Will that Start to bring a different approach to stuff, or will

it not, will they get sucked into the, this is the way the firm works, , which

is the language that everyone uses.

Which I find very uncomfortable and I would like to

see a move away from that because I think that gives off vibes that

I'm not entirely comfortable with.

As a really, well, it was interesting to me aside, probably not to

you or to anyone listening, but before

I love that.

Let's just share some stuff that nobody's gonna be interested in.

A couple of months ago it was before the Queen passed and before the

change in, leadership in the government.

I read the second book in the House of Cards trilogy by, um,

Michael, Can't think of his surname.

and it's called to Play the King.

And interestingly, when you read these, these were written in the

nineties or something, and he has this foreword whilst the books weren't

based on particular people, they were based on his interpretation of

certain things that were happening.

Anyway, the premise of the storyline of the second book, without giving any

spoilers, is that the new king is in place and there is a new prime minister

in place, and the king wishes to be more politically active on things like

that, that he is interested in, and the government doesn't want that to happen.

And this political spat between the two of them trying to get the higher ground.

And I read it at the time, definitely I had, Charles in my mind as the king that

they were talking about in, in the book.

But it's been so funny watching what's been playing out between

Liz Truss and, and the King over the last couple of weeks.

And I'm like, Oh my God.

They've literally just read and they're playing out this book, . So

if anyone wants to know the ending, read the second book,

they've, they've made the book into a real life movie already

playing out in front of our very eyes.

I think one of the things that struck me from the monarchies handling in the

change, aside from I suppose all the pomp and everything that's been happening and

whatever people's views are on that, I think the, one of the interesting moves

that stood out to me was, Staff at Clarence House that were put on notice

and how that was handled and obviously it was in the news at the time and now

completely understand that probably in their contracts this is a natural HR

process that is followed and whatever.

But I thought the timing was really, yeah, really poor and I.

Oh, this really doesn't show compassion for staff that who are having to deal

with, you know, they're probably mourning in their own way as well because of

stuff that's happening and, but then also worrying about their own personal

position whilst also trying to support a transition happening and all of that.

And I just thought, this isn't the great first step in terms of thinking

about care showing you caring for, for the people around you.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm interested that you've not touched yet that much on the government stuff.

I don't know if that's, cuz you don't feel like your soapbox is

sturdy enough to handle or that you might have to say on that.

But what's your sense around the changes in government and the leadership and

what we've seen so far and conscious that we've got the rest of the

episode to put some other stuff in.

This could be like a bonus episode, I'm sure from you, Lee.

I mean, I don't, I I, what, what is it to say?

I, I think that there is still this sense of populism ruling.

And it's really interesting when you've looked at the process of who was

elected leader and the mps definitely feeling differently to the party

members who voted and that sense of populism within, within the party.

I don't think they've got bloody clue what they're doing.

I find it fascinating that they are trying to position themselves

as being a new government.

and in the work I do with leaders stepping into new jobs, I do talk a

lot to them about distancing yourself from the legacy of your predecessor if

you are starting in a new organization.

But I think this government's taking it too far and, I think that's impacting on

their integrity even more because they're almost denying the fact that they've been

in power for 12 years and, and actually our new prime minister has been in the

cabinet for, for 10 of those 12 years.

So to act like they're completely new.

Yeah.

All brand new.

a break and all of that, once they find their feet, I, I just,

you know, it's reeks of bs, and

And we don't like BS here.

So that's, I don't think they've handled that particularly well.

I don't think some of the moves that they've made early on, absolutely we

are in this tricky time financially with the cost of living crisis and whatnot.

Of course, There's been calls for them to show that they've got a

plan and they're gonna take action.

And of course they're gonna need to show that they've got a grip of the problem.

But I don't think they've done that legwork in terms of really

understanding the problems and really listening to, to people.

And I think if you look at the budget, for example, The fallout over the budget

and their response to the fallout most more importantly, shows a complete

lack of understanding both of their privilege and also a lack of empathy

with the people it's gonna affect.

And I think it just sets a really poor tone from what I think

we're gonna continue to see.

Sorry,

No.

Feel properly depressed.

Now let's move us on.

I'm not, I'm not sure things are gonna get any better, if I'm honest.

So we've touched on the cost of living crisis, and I know you

and I have privately been having quite a few conversations about

this over the last couple of weeks.

We do talk between serious

Yeah, we we are real friends.

It's not all an act, just for the podcast.

We know, obviously it's the thing that is just everywhere you

turn there is you're seeing it in the news or you are experiencing

it firsthand, whether you, it's the bills that you're getting or whatever.

there's so much uncertainty.

There's also so little trust and belief in the government and in other

agencies that they're actually gonna be able to do anything about it.

And, if anyone's listened to, any episode of How to Take the Lead before we, we've

often talked about the fact that, staff and communities are looking to leaders

of their local organizations more than ever to speak up on the issues that

matter most to them because they have more trust in that kind of leadership.

Then big leadership or government or the media, and I think if there was ever

a time that leaders need to be seen to be making a stance and talking out on

behalf of the people that they serve.

This is that time.

So I suppose my question is what's that look like?

What, what, what can or should leaders be doing right now?

I think we've probably touched on some of what people

are not doing, which lends itself to what they should be doing.

So for, There are a couple of things that sprang to mind for me, and I think

there's something about genuinely actively listening and looking for areas that as

leaders, We can take action on that will make a genuine difference to people.

So really understanding so that point you made just now about like lack of

empathy, lack of understanding about what was really going on for people.

I think as leaders we really need to make those efforts to understand

that and to look at where there are opportunities for us to.

Potentially take action to support people and make that difference.

I think clear, transparent communications and that signposting, so when there's

stuff that we can't do as leaders for whatever reason, can we signpost and,

and get people to support that they.

They can access to help them, I think is really important.

And again, you used a really great example with Medium earlier on in the

conversation about that compassionate, empathetic, transparent communications

and being really open about stuff.

And I think now more than ever, as leaders, we need to do that.

And I think the point you made about taking a stance is really important.

So actually as leaders, are we in a position.

Where we can lobby, um, and, and can have a voice and speak out more loudly.

And I'll use the NHS as an example cause that's the one that I'm living through

at the moment in, in terms of my day job.

But absolutely so many individual organizations and individual

leaders doing things to try and put that support in place for people.

Whether it was supporting, uh, staff to get school uniforms over the summer

when they couldn't perhaps afford them.

Setting up food banks, like making one off payments to try and make a

contribution, um, to support people.

But the thing that I think is proving to be a real issue is there's no consistency

because each organization's been left to do their own thing and some organizations

are perhaps in positions where they can do more than others for whatever reason.

Finances, for example.

So I think what's been really positive is seeing, membership bodies like NHS

providers and NHS conf reaching out and ing with leaders across the NHS

to really represent and lobby for a more national centralized approach

and action from the NHS as a whole.

And so I think the more that leaders can get into that space

and support some of that lobbying around this issue, the better.

Because it's not gonna be fixed by one person doing one thing,

it needs to come as a collective.

So that, that was my initial thinking.

I completely agree with you and I've seen some of those examples that

you've, you've mentioned, and I think a few places yesterday were announcing

subsidies for staff in the canteens, for example, and stuff like that, just because

staff weren't getting hot meals at home.

So completely agree if there is the ability for you to

take actions locally do it.

If you can use collaborations locally, yes, you might not have resources within

your own individual organization, but the strength and power of a collaborative

locally, seeing where you can perhaps support and help each other can go a

long way if you're not already having conversations with counterparts in

other organizations and, and thinking beyond the, perhaps traditional links

you might have into maybe some of those more community based people, or places

as well would be really important.

I think using the media is, is super powerful and using your voice as a leader.

I, I think no leader at the head of an organization should be

silent on these kind of issues.

They should be and need to be not only speaking up, but I suppose painting

the picture and sharing the stories to demonstrate the impact that decisions

are having in their organization, in their community with the, the clients

that they see or, or the customers that they see, obviously sharing

with permission and all of that.

But I think often it could be easy to make broad statements and I think until

we start to really shine a light on, it's this person in this way that's impacted,

you know, really tangible stuff that you can see, you can feel, you can understand.

Then I, I think then that collective voice starts to, to make more of an impact

at a, a regional and a national level.

I think the other thing that leaders need to be thinking about and it kind

of brings us back to the point we were talking about at the very beginning.

But it's the sense of what is goodwill and what are the asks that you're

asking of your staff if you are asking them to put in extra hours because

things are really busy, actually what does that mean if they're doing that

unpaid, for example, or if they can't afford extra childcare or, or whatever

their personal circumstances will be.

Just putting on more pressure as a leader can be, or even just how

you ask of support of your staff.

You've got to be really mindful of, the narrative around getting

people back in the office.

I've seen some organizations say, Well, if we get more people back in the office,

actually it's gonna be a good thing for them because they're gonna have heating

but they've not thought about the cost of

Getting to the

office.

Yeah.

you know, they have to pay for their food or it, it could be more

expensive and more of a concern for staff thinking, I've got to suddenly

now start going into the office because my employers asked that of me.

Um, and it could actually start to drive staff to look elsewhere or look for places

that are gonna offer that flexibility.

So I think the ripple effect of stuff that you are asking of as leaders

is got to be considered as well.

Mm.

Yeah, I couldn't, Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

I wanna take you back to 2021

I dunno why, what, I dunno what vibe I thought was coming then.

I felt like that needed some sort of like little musical interlude.

What, what era were you taking me back to?

Man.

Yeah, not, not, not that far, but 2021 when we were, bright eyed and

bushy-tailed and we were, we did this thing called the Modern Leaders Report.

And it was research that we had from people that had been listening to our

show when we were doing it on Instagram.

We compiled a report that was looking at what the different skills that leaders

of the future needed to be demonstrating.

And there were three kind of key themes that they needed to be values driven,

prioritizing, wellbeing, and adaptable.

Those were the key areas for, for the future leader.

How far away do you think we are from that ambition?

Oh wow.

Where do I start?

Let's start.

Okay.

You've mentioned values driven first say for me in that space.

I feel like from a leadership point of view, it is a real mixed bag here.

I think we've shared some examples today where people have really been true to

their values in that leadership space, but we've also shared examples that

clearly show people are not, and I think the thing that I've been reflecting on a

little bit is the fact that potentially at the moment we are seeing role models and

examples of leaders who actually are being driven by their own personal values and

they are demonstrating these, it's just that quite a lot of us don't agree with

them . So it's a weird one, isn't it, to try and judge, because it's like, actually

some of these people who we might be professing to think have poor leadership

skills and are not demonstrating good leadership are potentially, actually

they're being true to their own values because perhaps they are just living out

some of the things that they genuinely believe in, which is quite worrying.

So the values piece, uh, yeah, was quite interesting.

I would definitely say I think wellbeing and prioritizing wellbeing does seem

to be something that's higher up on the agenda with more people in

general and I see, and I hear more leaders talking about wellbeing.

I am seeing more leaders demonstrating Putting their own wellbeing first.

And we've talked about that before, you do have to role model good wellbeing

behaviors to make people feel like it's okay to put their wellbeing first.

But I do think there is that fine line to tread because as well as,

Put in your own wellbeing first, as a leader, you do need to ensure that

you're helping those, that you need to prioritize their own wellbeing.

And we've just talked about the cost of living crisis, which is having a

huge impact on people's health and wellbeing, and we need to find ways

to support people around that agenda.

But I think we're, we are making more progress in, in

that wellbeing space, I think.

And then in terms of the adaptability, um, aspect of it all, I personally

don't think we made as much progress as leaders as we should have done.

And I think the pandemic, if an opportunity had to come out of the

Covid Pandemic, and I say Covid now cause I feel like Cost of Living is our

next pandemic, if I'm honest with you.

So What should have come out of Covid was an opportunity for us as leaders

to really grasp innovation, really focus on thinking about new ways of

working and how things can be different for the workforce, different for our

client groups, different for how we run our, our organizations and businesses.

And I feel like many leaders have missed the opportunity to do that now.

And I think I'm seeing more leaders quickly retreating back into that old

approach of I have to see you to believe that you are working, issuing almost

like three line whips to have to be in the office to do certain things that

quite frankly, sometimes even in my own experience, you follow the three line

whip and you think, Oh, we are all now sat in the same office in different rooms

on the same virtual call, so I could actually just be at home, let's be honest.

So, for me, I think we've missed an opportunity really as leaders to grasp

what positives could have come out of, the Covid pandemic in terms of the

way we lead, the way we work, the way we run our teams and organizations.

So that, yeah, they're my thoughts, Lee.

It's interesting that final piece that you were saying, because I, I

remember us talking, I dunno if it was on the podcast or on, on the Insta

series, but we were talking about this opportunity that leaders have and our

hope, and this was, this was in the midst of the pandemic, so it probably was

was on insta we were talking about it.

That leaders didn't just go back to the, Oh, right, well, we just need

to get back to where we were and doing things, how we were doing it.

And at the time we were talking about this concept of strategy and

what is strategy and, and the notion of a five year strategy is out in

the window now, you need to be more nimble and agile and all of that.

We rearticulated our hope at the time was that, The staff are not

wanting to just go back to how it was because how it was wasn't great.

And everyone's did Step Up, did show that they could work differently,

were given new responsibilities and opportunities and demonstrated

their worth through the pandemic.

And so there's almost this hope of a reward for doing so.

Yeah.

The, at the other end.

And so, yeah, you, it's a shame to see that what we had hoped

wouldn't happen has happened.

I don't know whether that is, Because you know, there are some

companies you look at, some of the big companies, particularly

overseas, have taken a stance.

They've closed their offices.

They have absolutely seized the momentum.

Are we less adaptable in the uk because we are so driven by the center and

how the civil service and politics drive the way business and public

services works and because they've got that mentality of you need to be

Yeah.

in this way and you need to be, and they have this thing of, you know,

the three line whip and all of that.

Has that just permeated down so far into the psyche of

Yeah,

the working world?

Mm, interesting.

And, and quite possibly, because you're right, we have seen other

organizations do things very differently and grasp that opportunity.

And most of them have not been UK based or uk you know, Origins

in terms of their business.

So that that, yeah.

Quite an interesting point you raised there.

I.

And you look at other countries like, Finland and the steps they've

made recently about, reducing the working week in terms of introducing,

shared parental leave in the true sense.

And

And that's been going on for some time there, hasn't it?

So that culture and that way of thinking has been there for a lot longer.

And I think, like you said, our hope was that that a positive to come out

of such a horrible thing like the pandemic would be that we would get

on that and grasp that for ourselves.

And it doesn't feel like we have, and it feels like, again, I dunno if it's

a, a cultural thing I, in this country that we, do seem to galvanize and pull

together in a crisis and cost of living I do think it is the next pandemic.

It's not gonna be resolved quickly as it's gonna be sustained and it is

gonna cause a lot of issues for people.

And you know, hopefully we will see some galvanization.

But I think the thing that we, that we don't do is we don't take those

lessons on board and learn them and then embed them to sustain them.

We go, Okay, that was a really difficult couple of years.

Well done gang.

You all pulled together, like you say, back to how it was before and it's, Oh,

why do we keep doing this like a cycle?

let's dust off that document that we were working on three years ago

and just try and make it work now.

Yeah, absolutely.

I feel hopeful in some senses because, you know, there, there are

subtle shifts, there are certain areas where absolutely you could see

individuals that are taking steps forward across all these three areas.

I think the tone of our political landscape, the tone of our media,

unfortunately I think our is, is still.

Pressing it, all of that down and pushing against it.

So I, I think there's a lot more that needs to happen.

I think there needs to be a lot more leaders being willing to,

to speak up and to show the way on this stuff, rather than just

Falling

into line.

Yeah.

So I'm hopeful, but that's what we are here for.

We're here to keep shining light on some of that and calling it out

when we see the good and the bad.

We hope anyone listening will do the same.

We we're on Instagram, Twitter now should anyone wish to join the conversation?

plug.

Love that little plug at how to take the lead

Right to wrap up, this was a meatier first episode than, than I had envisioned.

I've obviously got really poor at my chairing skills.

I apologize, dear listener.

Um, I will promise to do better in the future.

What we've hoped is that the listeners have missed us so much

between series that they're gonna stick with us for a meatier first episode.

To wrap up what, as we always do with our how to at the end of the

episode, so how, if you are in, if you are listening to this and you

are a leader and you're thinking.

Hopefully

you're figured, Oh my God, there's so much, but there's so much opportunity.

Let's reframe it as an opportunity to move in a different direction.

How can you start to refresh or rethink your own leadership

approach at this moment?

I think that reframing is actually a really good how to, cuz we

have been able to delve into some of the lows of leadership at the moment.

I think, and actually it's right, It's about reframing that.

I think it's reframing where you are at as a leader to think about

where do I want to have impact?

What one thing can I do today that's gonna have the biggest impact for

my organization, whether that's my workforce or my customer base.

I think get back into that frame of mind, Uh, reset.

Think about, you know, really trying to understand what will make a difference

for people and how you can act on.

And I also think there's something about how can you use your singular

voice as a leader to come together with others to maybe do that lobbying piece

and really stand up for what matters at the moment for your organization?

I would caveat that when we talk about reframing, we are not talking

about spinning, we are not talking about, false hope or anything that,

that tries to belittle or, um, disbelief what people are going through, but

it's actually, instead of thinking there is no hope looking for the

opportunity to do something about it.

I just wanted to make that point cuz I think some leaders think that they have

to do the whole, you know, Let's get our hockey sticks and pull our socks

up and oh, we'll be fine at the end.

it's very Enid Blyton.

I would add my how tos are, if you're not getting out

and speaking to your staff, set some time aside to do that now.

I think it's really important that you are truly understanding the mood in your

organizations and your understanding in detail the impacts that are happening and

you're not just taking one case study or what you hear on the media or what you're

hearing from government as, as the say so.

If you're not taking action, look to take action.

And we've, we've touched on this already today, but prioritize wellbeing.

Prioritize the wellbeing of your teams, but prioritize your wellbeing too, cuz

as a leader, there's a lot of weight on you to show some vision and some hope.

And that can get quite heavy at times.

So make sure that you are taking some time out and looking after yourself.