In this episode of Justice Takes Courage, Bishop Julius C. Trimble sits down with Bishop Tracy Smith Malone, President of the Council of Bishops and a past 8-year member of Church and Society’s Board of Directors. A lifelong champion for peace and social justice, Bishop Malone gives us her perspective on our current social environment and its impact on peace and social justice. She also shares how United Methodists, Bishops, and annual conferences are responding and coping with what seems to be a daily flood of unbelievable, conflicting news, and disturbing U.S. government actions.

Welcome to Justice Takes Courage, a podcast hosted by Bishop Julius C. Trimble,

General Secretary of the General Board of Church and Society. Hello, everyone, and welcome to

Church and Society's Justice Takes Courage podcast. My guest today is Bishop Tracy Smith Malone,

the resident bishop of the Indiana Episcopal Area and the president of the Council of Bishops for

the United Methodist Church. I'm your host, Bishop Julius Trimble, the General Secretary for the

General Board of Church and Society. Bishop, I know you have a heart for the work that we do at

Church and Society because you served on the Board for Church and Society Board of Directors,

and our paths have crossed before in this work with GBCS. You've been a strong champion for peace

and justice throughout your ministry. So during this episode, we are going to talk with Bishop

Smith Malone and get her perspective about our current environment impacting peace and social

justice, as well as how United Methodist bishops and conferences are responding and coping with

what seems to be a daily flood of unbelievable, conflicting,

and disturbing news. Welcome, Bishop Malone. It's a pleasure to have you with us.

Thank you. It's wonderful to be here and to be in conversation with you, Bishop Trimble. So before

we get started, or as we get started, can you help explain to our audience a little bit about your

role as the president of the Council of Bishops, as well as your passion for the United Methodist

Church and the work of church and society? I know that's a long, big ask, but if you could speak to

that. Sure. Well, first and foremost, let me say how honored I am to serve in the role as president

of the council. And I consider this work and leadership that I give on behalf of the council,

on behalf of the United Methodist Church, I consider it really a sacred trust. for my peers,

my Episcopal peers, to trust me with this leadership of the work that we do together within the

council, but also the work that the president is responsible for in helping to continue steward the

mission and the vision of the church. So in my role as president of the council,

first and foremost, as it relates to the work of the council, is to help us as a council work

together collectively, cohesively in our efforts together to steward the vision of the church and

to steward the mission of making disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. And

although each bishop, whether active or retired,

plays a key and vital role in their respective Episcopal areas. The work we do together helps us

collectively shepherd the church. And together,

one of the things I'm very excited about that we've been very instrumental in as a council and

working collaboratively with the Connectional Table is even developing and introducing a new

vision. for the church. We're very clear on what our mission is of making disciples of Jesus Christ

for the transformation of the world, but how do we live together as a worldwide church into this

next expression of what it means to be United Methodist, what it means to be Christians living in

today's world. And so even with our new vision, claiming and naming that as the United Methodist

Church, we form disciples. of Jesus Christ, who are empowered by the Holy Spirit to love boldly,

to serve joyfully, to lead courageously in our communities and in our worldwide connections.

That's some of the work of the council is casting vision and helping us to develop missional

strategies and making sure we have theological and social pathways for how we are being the body of

Christ, being the hands and the feet of Christ. So part of my role as president of the Council of

Bishops is helping us together to stay on course, living into our mission and our vision.

Also in my role as president, I serve, as I would say, more as a liaison of the work of the council

to some of the other boards and agencies. and entities of the United Methodist Church, serving in

advisory role, serving in a council role, being the convener of conversations,

again, to help create greater collaboration in how we're carrying out the mission and the vision of

the church. And so I am honored. to serve in that capacity. And I take very serious what my role in

my work is as the president of the council. But I see myself as a shepherd on behalf of the council

for the church to help us steward the mission and the vision of the church. Your passion for the

United Methodist Church goes back a long way with the long trajectory. Can you speak about your

history in the United Methodist Church? as well as the work of Church and Society and how that

you've intersected with the work that we do at the General Board of Church and Society and how

that's been part of your ministry. Sure.

My call to ministry came at a very young, tender age. At the age of 13,

I was raised in the United Methodist Church. As a matter of fact, I like to tease and say that the

And that was one of the most historical, significant things that happened in 68. But another

But I've been United Methodist all of my life, born and raised in the church, shaped by the worship

of the church, the Sunday school of the church, has always had a heart. For the word of God, I had

a heart for people, the respect and the dignity of people. I always had a heart for persons to know

that they are the beloved, you know, children of God and always had a heart for the repair,

like where there was harm. You know, I wanted to be a part of the repairing where there was

brokenness. I had a heart to be a part of the repairing to help persons become whole and have

access to. Things that make for a wholesome life,

meaning health and welfare and care and food security.

I've always had a heart for people and a heart for justice and the well-being of persons.

So as I moved in and throughout my life through the church and from college into seminary and was

ordained ministry, but I also wanted to serve the church beyond the local church. And so I allowed

myself to be available to the church. So when opportunities came to serve the general church or to

serve the annual conference, I was always readily available to do that. And so I was elected

through the conference to be a delegate. um to the general conference and it was really through the

annual conference who recognized my love and my passion and who trusted me enough to elect me to

represent the conference, to attend the general conferences. When I learned more about not just how

general conference functions, but what is the work of the church, the social justice work of the

church in the world. I wanted to be a part of that. So when the opportunity came for me to serve.

On church and society, as a board member, I jumped at it. Even before asking the questions,

what is the time commitment? You know, what is it going to require of me? The opportunity to serve,

to be a part of justice making and justice seeking and peace seeking. That's my heart.

That's my heart language. That's my life's work. My ministry was centered in that.

And so. I was grateful to serve for eight years on Church and Society, and I even chaired the Peace

with Justice International Affairs Committee, which even gave me more exposure to the inequities

and the injustice and looking at strategies and ways and looking at our social principles for what

is our work and what is the role and the work of the church as it relates to how we right wrongs.

And so I have a heart for justice, always have, but I'm grateful for my years on church and

society. We're living in a critical time in our world. It's also a critical time,

many have said, Bishop Malone, for our church. So as president of the Council of Bishops,

what has been challenging? And on the flip side, what has been rewarding or life-giving or soul

-stirring for you as well? You know, what has been most challenging?

is living in a society where the administration,

the elected leaders of a society,

lack compassion and heart for what is right and what is best for the common good of all.

And to live in a world That when you have a society who is part of a greater world,

knowing that whatever happens here in these United States and whatever decisions that get made have

implications for how that impacts people literally all over the world.

And the biggest challenge for me has been as president is when different.

Actions are taken that disregard the dignity and the worth of persons,

always asking the question, what is the response,

what is the faithful response of the church? How do we address,

how do we speak into these inequities, these injustices, and how do we help to equip?

members, clergy and laity of the United Methodist Church to confront this injustice.

You know, what does the Bible say? First and foremost, you know,

what is our theological task as a church? What is our missional task as a church? What do our

principles, how do they speak into who we say we are? How does that show up?

And how do we show up in the world in these times and in these circumstances? So the biggest

challenge for me has been even working with the council and helping us speak into this disruptive,

lack of compassion, injustice that's happening. And we've been very faithful as a council,

not just speaking to address the injustices. but also doing some teaching through our statements.

Because a statement is not just intended to speak against something or speak into something, as it

is that a statement provides a resource to help equip pastors and local churches for them to also

be able to speak into it, but not just speak. How do we organize to confront,

to right the wrongs? So that's been one of the biggest challenges. It's like every week. since this

current administration has been in the administration, which I came into my role only a few months

before this administration came into leadership, that that's been a lot of the work is to keep us

focused on our mission and our vision of loving boldly, serving joyfully,

leading courageously, of making maturing disciples of Jesus Christ. Yes, staying on mission, but

also to our prophetic witness. Like, what is our work to repair the harm,

to right the wrongs? And so that's been a challenge of staying on top of and using discretion as to

what do we speak into? What do we allow other parts of the church to speak into? And we come

alongside and help amplify because it's all still the United Methodist Church speaking together.

But also, what is our work to roll up our sleeves,

to contact? you know, our elected officials, you know, to be out into the streets doing the

protesting and the advocating. So it's not just speech, but it's mobilizing. It's the action.

That's been the challenge. But my hope and the good news is I've been so pleased and thankful that

the United Methodist Church has and continues to rise up.

Amen. And we are rising up loving boldly and serving joyfully and leading courageously and showing

up in places where we need to be in local communities. Local churches are in their communities.

They're at their state houses. They're at the White House. It was just an organized effort that

church and society was instrumental in helping to organize where thousands of United Methodists

gathered in Washington, D.C. We show up. Yes. We speak up and we show up.

We are being the body of Christ. That excites me and that gives me hope. Well, praise God. I want

to just go on record on behalf of the General Board of Church and Society. But for the church,

Bishop Malone, you could have easily said, there's so many things that happen every 24 hours.

We're getting stuff bombarded. And you can't speak on everything because it diminishes the impact

of when you do speak. And it's different to speak as just as a residential bishop, which you can as

the Bishop of the Indiana Episcopal Area. But when you are the president of the Council of Bishops,

you have to obviously be prayerful about not only the verbiage,

but also the timeliness. And at the same time, the Book of Discipline says the role of the bishop

is to speak to the church and to the world. Right. So I want to say you have been faithful.

to that task, and certainly it's kept you pretty busy along with all your other tasks.

The General Conference adopted the social principles to provide our most recent official summary of

stated convictions in order for us to apply a Christian vision to righteousness in the areas of

economic, social, and political justice. How do you view the United Methodist social principles?

process in which they were created and updated,

if you will, for this most recent general conference. But how do you view the import of the

social... even for today? You know, I'm grateful for the work of the General Board of Church and

Society and for the updated social principles, because I strongly believe that our principles,

while they are not church law, they are our spiritual,

missional, theological, prophetic. guiding principles for how we live out our faith in the world in

real time. And no matter what happens in the world or whatever the circumstance,

we have something within our social principles to speak to it and to provide guidance to help us

think through what is the church's role? What is our faithful response?

and even provides guidance around how we might even put that into practice. So I'm very grateful to

be in a denomination where we have principles as such and to have an agency who is readily keeping

those in front of us, but also making sure that we do the necessary re-examination and bring those

to the general conference so that we can stay relevant. So let me start there. I will say that I am

finding that more pastors and churches are relying on the social principles.

When it comes to the sermonic moment and the preaching, when pastors are looking for guidance as to

how do we address, even the lens through which we look at scripture, how do we address what's going

on around us and make scripture applicable to society issues? They look to the social principles.

When laypersons are trying to organize and educate and become more informed about what is their

work, more and more persons are looking to the social principles. So thank you,

church and society, for keeping this at the forefront. And I've noticed that over these last few

years that we've made these more visible and access-friendly and user-friendly.

Because they are making a difference. And I will say in every statement that has been written on

behalf of the council and even our other boards and agencies as they do their work, ground them in

our social principles. And so not only do they inform our faith and our lens through which we live

out our faith, I think they're also transformational in the sense that it helps us be more

strategic. about how we make for a better society. I think you'd be happy to know as well,

you probably know this as having served on the board, but our ecumenical and interfaith partners,

both here in D.C. and New York and across our interfaith work, they look to the United Methods and

say, you all have social principles. Sometimes they say, we wish we had a document that really

listed the various areas of concern, and particularly as it as it relates to promoting peace.

And we know that peace is not the absence of tension, but it's an intended commitment to advancing

the cause of Jesus Christ. So a lot of the folks we get a chance to work with,

Bishop Malone, say, United Methodist, you are blessed to have the document.

I say to pastors, I know you do, you for years, say, you know, you need to read your Bible. Social

principles don't replace the Bible. Exactly. If you're preaching from the scriptures and you have

the social principles. That's right. You can also be instrumental in teaching the congregation as

well. Right. That's a very good point, because when we talk about our.

Our prophetic witness, you know, is one thing, you know, as a worshiping community and a believing

community, you know, of reading scripture and we're formed through scripture, we're formed through

worship. But then when the question becomes, how do you live out what you believe?

To me, that's really where the social principles become very, very helpful. What does this look

like? You know, how does justice and equity and sacred worth and dignity for all,

how does that show up in the world? And so the social principles give us a pathway for how faith

shows up, what our Christian witness looks like in the world. Knowing firsthand the work of church

and society across the world, from your perspective, how critical is the church's commitment?

not only to support our social principles and the effort to advance our social principles,

but the implications they have for, you know, global peace and global witnessing.

You know, there are different societies that are dealing with different challenges, but as we move

into a new season for our church in the coming years of regionalization,

we believe, at least at church and site, we believe that these social principles are still

critically important. Oh, yeah. And the social principles, I would say, as far as the United

Methodist Church, I see them as being universal for the United Methodist Church. No matter the

context and the gift of regionalization gives to the church for more contextual ministry,

the social principles, they are the bridge to all of that. So no matter what is happening,

whether it's an economic issue, whether it's a war issue, whether it's climate issue,

you know, whatever the issue or the justice matter is in that particular context,

the social principles are not U.S. centric. They are global in nature.

And so the social principles are a resource. a missional faith response,

faith informed Christian witness resource for the whole church.

I'm trying to get that down. I was trying to write. Yeah. I mean, I think it's the bridge that

holds us together. Yes. The book of discipline. Of course, we're working on the general book of

discipline. That would be the holder of all things. But I believe that the social principles that

is the holder. That's the container for the United Methodist Church.

No matter what the other nuances would be as we live more into what regionalization would look like

and more equity across the denomination, I believe it's going to be those social principles that

will be one of the standards beyond the Constitution. But our principles are what's going to hold

us together, that this is who we are. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

You articulated that in a way in which, you know, inspires me for the work that we're currently

doing. I was just reading this. This probably comes as no surprise to you. It's been quoted several

times. I'm reading from a little booklet from a colleague from the Friends Church,

the Quakers. And our country is divided. There was a recent poll. I think this is a year old now.

A recent poll by the University of Chicago. that found that increasing numbers of people on both

the right and the left believe violence may be justified. to advance political issues that they

believe in. That's really scary. Two years ago, I believe it was,

white extremist groups posed, it was reported by the government, white extremist groups posed the

greatest threat to the United States according to the United States government. With there's so

much focus on division, you know,

with this study from the University of Chicago, it's just one of several ways.

And it is scary. A lot of people are really fearful. And I think it's important for us to be

promoters of faith and hope. But we also don't want to ignore the reality of the division.

When people actually believe that violence is justified to advance their political ideology,

that is scary. What words of hope might you have? What concerns you about the current environment

that we're living in and we're doing ministry in this environment and we're trying to, some of us

would say we're trying to hold on to some semblance of a compassionate democracy. Right.

I mean, you've said it and you just reiterated it from the article that you were reading.

We know that we're living in a polarized.

I would say, society in divided times. And we have been in this time for some time,

and it is progressively getting worse, particularly more so heightened under this current

administration. I mean, that's just a reality. And whenever you have divisive rhetoric and hatred,

rhetoric, and I keep using the word compassion because it's really a lack of compassion that's

coming from one who has been entrusted with being a unifier of bringing not just a country,

but a world and worlds together. When you have that coming from That level of leadership,

it almost even gives a permission, you know, that is okay to just say what you want to say to

somebody, do what you want to do to somebody, and it doesn't matter. And there are no consequences.

And I can see how, because of where we currently are in the status of that,

and it does feel like it's getting worse and probably will get worse before it gets better,

that will leave many persons feeling... you know, hopeless and disillusioned and,

you know, it is what it is. I'm just going to ride this out. Or what do you do? I have no control.

That could lead persons to become pessimistic, to not even expect nothing to be different.

And I think that's where the role of the church comes in, is that we have to always be an expectant

people and a hopeful people believing that these troubles that we are in will not last always.

Recognizing, you know, the current realities and still confronting and addressing and staying on

the wall, if you will, and staying on the battlefield and at the same time,

not giving up hope and believe that a better day is coming, but part of not just believing,

but working for a better day to come. I said the other day to somebody that I never wish any harm

on anybody. That is not the Christian thing to do. And that's not the Tracy Smith Malone thing to

do. I don't have it in my heart to wish harm on anybody. But this is my prayer. Lord,

let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And I'm reminded that kings and kingdoms.

We'll all pass away, but there's something about that name. And we look at the scriptures,

it's replete with examples that corrupt systems and corrupt kingdoms do not last forever.

That God is still on the throne and God is still calling God's people to mobilize,

to be prophetic, to be loving, to be just, to be...

and among and alongside people working for good in the world, that work never changes.

So, yes, we got our realities, but our work never changes. That we stay on the battlefield and we

stay believing that the work that we do, that our faithful response will lead toward something good

and that God is always. working for good in all things.

And we cannot lose sight of that. And the church has to keep that prophetic witness and keep that

faithful response. And we have to believe it. We have to hope against hope and be perseverant

ourselves. And that's why I love our mission statement. It's yes,

loving boldly, serving joyfully, but leading courageously, a relentless hope.

to keep us leading, knowing that God can redeem and shall redeem all things.

Amen, amen. Leading courageously, as in conversation in recent days,

I was sharing, while GBCS is not, we are nonpartisan,

but that doesn't mean that we avoid the political arena in the sense of we speak against bad

policies. And so someone would say, well, you know, the church, we're not in politics and so forth.

Well, Jesus healed on the Sabbath. I don't know, was that a political statement or pastoral care or

healing? So if we are to do healing, that also means to remove the barriers to people's access to

wellness. That's right. Mind, body, and spirit. So leading courageously,

I think, A lot of pastors are really wrestling with that from a theological,

in terms of our theological task. And remember that we are pastors and preachers with

responsibility to address those things in our communities that would require people experiencing

wholeness. So I really, would you want to expand on leading courageously in this current

environment? When, you know, I think Pope Leo was spot on saying, you know, we're not praying for

war. We pray for peace. We act towards peace. And those are the letters that you have penned on

behalf of the Council of Bishops call for us to pray and to work towards peace and justice.

That's right. Yeah. Thank you for that, Bishop Trimble. There is always the fear.

And I hear this. more often than not, from not even just clergy,

but even laity within the local church that when they want to speak and or address the harm,

and I'm going to call it the evil, it is evil. It is evil. The acts and what is happening is evil.

And when there is an... address it, that the pushback is,

you know, we're bringing politics into the pulpit or that is not the role and the work of the

church, where the role and the work of the church is to be prophetic.

And to be prophetic is not us speaking what,

you know, we believe as far as our... belief,

but what is it that form and shape our beliefs, which is the word of God. And so to me,

the word of God is bipartisan.

So if you're being faithful to teaching the word and preaching the word,

it is the word that becomes the sword, if you will, that help you to divide and understand what is

right and what is wrong, what is truth and what is untruth. And of course, we seek to interpret and

understand what thus saith the Lord. But that is the role in the work of the church is to speak

into and to be present for and to show up. I was just watching the news yesterday and the attack on

the Catholic church. And somebody had recorded some of the conversation that Pope Leo had said.

And they showed the print on the screen. And all he said was, I'm preaching Jesus.

Jesus was a peacemaker. I'm just calling for peace. Basically, how is that political and calling

for peace? And then, of course, that became the whole big debate on CNN and the Roundtable where

they had a Catholic priest and other folks speaking into this confrontation between administration

and the Catholic Church. And as I was listening to that, I said, wow. At first I was so taken by

it, but then I was thankful. I said, about time, the church and what we believe in our Christian

witness is at the forefront of what is happening in the world.

Amen. And if we are even a nation found on,

I'm just saying, Christian principles. Even though we know that there's a radicalization of what

those are, and that's another whole conversation for another day. I won't go there right now. But

the reality is if Jesus is at the center and if it's the gospel that we're proclaiming and if it's

a call to love. If there's a call to peace, if there's a call to community,

if there's a call to the sacred worth and the dignity of all persons, and all persons mean all

persons, how is that political?

Amen. People use the gospel as an escape goat, you know,

really as a way of hijacking, I would say, the church speaking into and being faithful in the role

that the church is supposed to play. You know, we have all of these systems. You got the economic

system. You got the, you know, the political system. But you also have the religious. And that's

what we're called to be, is to do our part as followers of Christ in this beautiful but hurting,

broken, polarized world. Too often,

Bishop, people want to prescribe a relatively restrictive role for the church.

feed the hungry, clothe the naked. Well, what about also speaking out against the elimination of

SNAP benefits for 2.5 million people right now as a result of actions of this current

administration? Exactly. So it's not just the job for us to feed the hungry, but to ask why more

people are becoming hungry in the first place. That's right. Looking at the systems that

perpetuate. You know, visit those who are in prison. OK,

are we not supposed to ask the question and look at the prison to the pipeline or the pipeline to

the prison? You know, the profit that people are making. Are we not to ask the hard questions?

Why are there so many people? Yeah. So, church, you stay in this lane, but you don't you don't come

over here. Yeah. Well, I praise God for your witness, for your leadership. Is there anything else

you wanted, would like to. inject into the conversation. It's been a rich and rewarding

conversation on my part, on our behalf. And we are grateful for the leadership you have provided

and continue to provide. So I know there's a point which you passed the gavel and so forth,

but I know you continue as a leader in the Council of Bishops, but also in the state of Indiana,

where we call home.

the work that you are doing globally. We didn't get a chance. That's another whole podcast to talk

about your global work and your work with African University. But is there anything else you'd like

to say? We want to encourage our listeners on this podcast to remember that justice does take

courage, but God is able. Yes, God is. Amen. And the only other thing I want to say is I want to

thank you, Bishop Trumbo. I want to thank you for your leadership and for the courage that you have

and have taken even to have this podcast, to have these kind of conversations, to elevate the

conversation of the work and the role of the church, but in particular,

the work of church and society and keeping before us the social principles.

I want to thank you for that. And thank you for the podcast. I think that these conversations,

Like truly in the moment, these relevant conversations can really serve as a resource for the

church in real time. And so I thank you for your leadership. I thank General Board Church and

Society for its role in the life of the church and just keep on keeping on.

And thank you for this resource. All right. Thank you, Bishop Malone. And be encouraged.

Thank you. God bless you. Take care. All right. Thank you for listening to justice takes courage,

a podcast hosted by Bishop Julius C. Trimble, general secretary of the general board of church and

society.