Donna Snow’s new book takes us to the world of an often-overlooked, but incredibly timely character in God’s story. “Chosen” is a study of the Old Testament book of Esther, a woman who was selected by God to stand up for what’s right, speak truth to worldly power, and to trust in the power and plans of God. Join host Matt Popovits as he interviews Donna and discusses the importance of Esther’s story and how it relates to what people of faith are facing today.

The following program is sponsored by evangelical life ministries.

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Hey friends. Welcome. I am here with my friend, Donna Snow. She's an author and she is here to tell us about her latest book. It's called chosen a study of Esther Donald. Welcome to the program. Well,

Thanks, Matt. It's great to be here again.

Yeah, it's great to have you with us. So, so, so tell me what led you to write a book about the old Testament book of Esther? It, it's not one that many people I would think are, are all that familiar with it, it's it, it can kind of get forgotten in our study of the scriptures. So, so what led you to it?

Well, it's just a fascinating book and I, I really believe that, you know, it's being it's in scripture, so it's incumbent upon us to study it. And it's one of the only two books that are named after women. And I think especially as a woman, that's a draw and I just, it has it, it's like a newly drama. It's an epic drama with sight and sounds and colors and intrigue and all that kind of stuff. And behind the scenes is the fairytale, you know, orphan becomes queen. But what we realize when we study it is it's actually more of a nightmare than a fairytale and it's a serious book. It's just an incredible book.

So give us a little bit, uh, of the background and the setting of the story of Esther. Like, like what's going on in that world?

Well, Esther is part of the diaspora. They are in Persia, which at the time they were in the winter palace of SUSE and the king at the time is aha AIS or Zues. And so he is the ruler in play at the, and he's a weak king. He's strong in the battlefield, but he's a weak king. And so he appoint this prime minister by the name of Haman, who has it out for the Jews. And so Esther having been an orphan as a girl, her cousin Mordecai adopts her and they are in the city of Persia and the empire of Persia. And so when things heat up and Haman is appointed prime minister, that's when the clause come out, so to speak. And it's an epic drama of God placing Esther for such a time as this, in that place to basically save a nation from annihilation.

So, so, so what would you say is, is, is the, the ultimate message of the book of Esther and, and why is it kind of relevant and pertinent to a follower of Jesus today?

It's relevant because we have to trust God. Some, especially nowadays when we look around and we see our circumstances, we see the pandemic, we see the political strife, we see a, a racial wound. Uh, we can know that besides those circumstances, God is still working in them and he has already given us what we need to do to be victorious and share his message. I, I think of, um, I think of, Zacharia not, Zacharia, he's the little dude Zaki yeah. You know, long before, long before Zaki needed to see Jesus, God planted a tree in Jericho and it's that kind of thing. And wherever we are, if we trace the fingerprints of God in our life, we can see that he has prepared us for whatever we are and we didn't even know it a long the way.

So, so, so that, there's a, there's a message here in Esther, that, that God has us really right. Where he wants us. There's no, there's no surprise to him about our circumstances and that if he's let us into this moment, he will equip us for it and, and, and meet us there and, and us for his glory and the good of others in that, in that moment is that, am, am I kind of tracking with

You? Yes, exactly. And what's fascinating about the book of Esther is God has never mentioned, but it's such a clear picture of the Providence of God, which speaks to our culture. Uh, rarely do we hear on the media or anything that God has mentioned, but that doesn't mean he has exited stage L you know, he is still here and active and the Providence of God is just a beautiful depiction in the book of Esther. And one of the most fascinating things about Esther is that it's still one of the Jewish festivals celebrated to this day, but it was, it's the only one still celebrated that that was not a mosaic festival. And so it's huge even to this day for the Jewish people, because they recognize that God saved them yet again. Mm.

So, so, uh, I, I, I think, I think you're hitting on something that's really, really timely for us. So, so, so, so Esther, as she operates in this really secular realm, right? The, the, the not, it's not God's, it's, it's not God's realm of, um, the, the, the safe and tidy world of the, of the Israelites, you know, they're dispersed, uh, Persia is ruling and, and Esther has to navigate this world. That's, that's run by foreign values and, and, and leaders who are outside of God's tribe, and God is active, even though she, she never active through her, even you really, she never mentions his name. Nobody does that to me, seems to correlate to perhaps the, the season that, that Christians are entering into in this time in history, where we have to believe that God is acting in us and through us in this culture, that, that really no longer is in step with all the things that we believe. Am I, am I reading too much

In a of this? No, that's, it's absolutely perfect. You're right. For such a time as this, we have this study cuz it's, it's perfect. One of the things I love about Esther is she doesn't utter a word until chapter four. And so she is silent. She basically is going with the flow, trusting the doors. God is opening, trusting the people that he's put around her. And for a woman who likes to talk a lot, you know, for four chapters to be silent, you know, and in the whole book, she only speaks eight times. And so I think for us, that's also a huge behind the scenes lesson that sometimes we don't always have, have to talk sometimes being there and just sharing the love of God in tangible ways. Sometimes that's what we're called to do. Uh, despite actually talking to people. I mean, there's, there's so many cool stories in the book of Esther. And I think for a woman it's really cool that, you know, she was facing basically a male society and she decided that at one point, okay, it's time to step up or step out. And she risked her life literally to go before the king.

I, I love that phrase. It's time to step up or step out. Oh yeah. Now, now, now there's, there's, there's another phrase that you've used a couple of times already in our conversation. And the phrase is for such a time as this now, now that comes from the book of Esther, right?

That's in chapter four of Esther. That's, that's the pivotal moment where Mordecai her cousin is basically saying, okay, cuz when this confrontation happens with Mordecai and Esther, Esther's been queen for five years and Mordecai says, okay, Haman has just presented this edict to annihilate all the Jews, IM Persia. And for such a time as this, God has put you here. So, you know, you need to start talking, you need to start doing, because maybe after five years in the palace, she is comfortable, you know, and maybe she doesn't wanna make waves, but she decides to do that because there's such a greater mission other than her comfortability, it's her entire people, race and Mordecai reminds her gently, well, not so gently, but lovingly that, Hey, you're a Jew too. And if that's found out, you're gonna go down with the rest of us. Mm-hmm . And so really in that pivotal moment, she steps up as a woman of faith and says, okay, let's roll. Mm-hmm

it's it's, it's it's really worth looking up. If you're following all, uh, with us and you have access to, to a Bible or you have access to a smartphone it's Esther chapter four, verse 14, this, this is, this is a verse that'll stick with you. It's powerful. Uh, so, so, so, so as our guest said, you know, this is, uh, these are words being spoken to Esther that God uses to mobilize her into action. And it says this for if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews for God's people will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish and who knows, but that you have come to your Royal position for such a time as this, in other words, who knows what, what if, what if God put you in this place because he wants to use you in this way. That, that, that question that he asks at the end of verse 14 is really, really powerful there. And, and I wonder if that's a question that, that all of us are meant to take with us and ask, maybe I was put in this place and this time in this situation for a reason, is, is that fair to say?

I think that's very fair to say, especially as American Greek thinkers, you know, we, we always ask why this, whereas the more Jewish Israel act question is what is my purpose? Um, what am I here for? What am I here to accomplish? Not why me, but what for, there's a purpose behind that question. So it matters the questions that we ask and throughout Esther, uh, God's timing is just perfect because when Esther realizes she needs to go before the king, she invites him to dinner and she has the perfect opportunity to say, okay, this guy just ordered my execution and all the people, all the Jewish people in Sosa, but she waits cuz she senses that that's not the right time. And in that crucial 24 hours between the end of that first banquet and the second one, she invites the king to God works in that night on giving the king a sleepless night to where he remembers that Mordecai actually stepped up to save his life. At one point, Haman builds the gallows to, uh, murder Mordecai on and in that 24 hour period had Esther jumped the gun things weren't in place yet. And I think that's us now, you know, there are so many things happening and his timing is perfect. So when we wait for God's timing, that clear signal, instead of jumping the gun, it can make all the difference in the story.

Yeah. So, so, so the willingness of Esther to take on that call to say, the Lord wants to use me in this for his purposes, but also the patience of Esther. Um, and to, to wait for that, that right moment and to, and to kind of listen for and, and heed the, the move and spirit to say yes now is the time trusting that that God is working, not just in her, but in other people and behind the scenes to bring it all together are kind of perfectly in his time. That's, that's a, that's a powerful picture. It's not an easy thing to live out, but it's not because

She's a powerful picture. She's her enemy. She invited her enemy into dinner too. She wasn't just working this behind the scenes. When she invited the king to dinner, it was the king and Haman because she wanted him right there. And the second time it was the king and Haman, you know, it's that old saying, you know, keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, you know, um, she didn't show animus toward Haman. She wasn't angry. She didn't throw a fit. She included him to where he kind of put the noose around his own neck.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think there's so many interesting things to learn for, uh, for this moment in time that we find ourselves in, you know, as I, uh, as, as I, as I pastor in this moment, um, I, I talk to a lot of people who are, you know, they're, they're frustrated that, that our, our, our government, isn't more explicitly Christian and, and, and I, I, I would, I would love for us to live in a, a more thoroughly Christian world too, but that's throughout the course of history, that's not often been the case. Right. Um, they, they want the, yeah, they, they want our leaders to be more thoroughly Christian and, and, and perhaps that'd make it easier for us to be involved in politics and government, but, but there's a parallel here between the time that Esther was in and the time that God's people find themselves in, of what it means to work with. I think secular leaders and authorities as a person of faith. Right. Um,

Well, and you know, it's historic in scripture, Daniel dealt with that with Nene, Joseph dealt with that. Um, but both eventually raised a high ranking, you know, second in command type physicians and here S through his queen for the same purpose, you know, to save God's people, to preserve the remnant, you know, that's, uh, it's just historical. And I love that, that, that God used a woman in this instance. It's yeah. It gives us courage for, for women who I find, who are timid, who are hesitant to speak up, maybe this will give them the courage to say, okay, when the time is a right, it is okay to, to speak up and to say, what's right.

Mm-hmm , yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a subversive and behind the scenes, um, but nonetheless powerful and effective form of influence in leadership that you bring up. Great examples, Esther, Daniel, Joseph, that they, that they exert in, in, in public authority that are not, that are not outwardly or explicitly, or at all, uh, authorities based on faith. Uh,

Yeah. And the way these characters were pulled into their stories. I mean, Joseph, you know, sold by his brothers, spent time in prison, forgotten in prison. Then he gets to interpret dreams, Daniel, you know, part of the, you know, the captivity and by, you know, and then Esther has to go through a MIS Peric contest first, you know, and I just love the fact that the person God needed to use just happened to be a knockout for king Ahan wear .

Yeah. It's, it's, it's really interesting. They, they all go through their, their own form of kind of like, uh, adversity or struggle in order to get into this place of, of, uh, of influence in this kind of secular kingdom. And then when the time is right, they, they, they utilize it. Um, so, so, so talk a little more, if you don't mind about, uh, the, the powerful message for, for women that is in the story of Esther, um, for, for you as a, as a female leader in God's church, what, what has been encouraging for you as someone who, who, who speaks and, and teaches and, and has a role to play in God's kingdom, what's been the power, the powerful message for you from Esther as a, as a woman

That God can use anyone, period. I mean, um, man, woman, child, um, but especially as a woman, you know, I didn't grow up in the, in the church. And so there's always this feeling of, I haven't, I haven't been part of the club long enough, and I can only imagine how Esther felt being a Jew and hiding that in Persia. You know, not always feeling like you're on par with everyone else. And so, but it just shows that no matter where you on what's happened in your life, God will surround you with people. You know, when you trust him by faith, that he will lead you and guide you, no matter your circumstance, um, whether you're a man or a woman, but it's, it's especially wonderful for women because especially if you're married, you know, we have a subservient role and maybe that's a, a bad term, but you know, the submissive role and like the fact that Esther at the right time, when prompted, knowing that it was right and wrong, she actually committed a triple transgression. You know, she, she went against the law of the means and the Persian, she, uh, you dissipated her husband and she, um, stood up before a king uninvited to stand up for what was right. And it's just, um, and it wasn't for self aggrandizing purposes. It was to commit something that would cause the saving of God's people. And mm-hmm, , that's the, that's really the litmus test. It can't be about to us or for us, it's got to be for God. And for the bigger picture, that's when he makes us brave to stand up.

Yeah. Yeah. She, I mean, she, she, she really did break all the rules to step, to step up and speak up and be used by God. And, and there there's a, there's a, there's a profound lesson in there too, is in that, that doing the right thing, according to, according to God knows no nos, no morays, no traditions, um, nos, no, um, nos, no bounds other than to do the right thing that God has commanded. Right. Um, and it's

Not easy. no, oh no. The wilderness always comes after the blessing, doesn't it, it, it's just, uh, that's part of it. And the wilderness that she saw was that because the king made this edict, it was under the laws of the Meads and Persians, which means it couldn't be revoked. So when the king signed the decree to annihilate the Jews, she had to work to have another decree that would kind of counter set that to let the Jews at least defend themselves. And that's what God, that's what God did by a rolling of the dice. The casting of lots, you know, God gave the Jews 11 months to prepare for what he knew would be a slam dunk victory for the Jews.

Wow. So, so we, we've got a couple themes running here through Esther. We've got, um, the, the, the subversive influence of God's people and a pagan culture. Um, we've got, um, how to navigate a cultural influence when you are now not in the, in the seat of cultural authority, right. If you're a person of, uh, uh, of faith. Oh yeah. Um, we, we, we've got, uh, women in profound leadership and influence, um, being used in God's story. So, so that's working there. Uh, there's also this, this theme of, of, of God being the author of all things and putting us in the right time and right. Places for his purposes and trusting that he's working behind the scenes. Even if nobody's saying his name, right,

That's working there. Think you, you nailed it. That is

Awesome. So, so the, but the other thing I wanna, I would love for you to speak on is this is, you know, as, as, um, as people of our particular theological tradition, you and you and I are both connected to the Lutheran church. And, and one of the things that we teach in the Lutheran church as we hold this really high view of scripture is that everything in the old Testament ultimately points toward Jesus and that everything in the new Testament flows from Jesus, it's kind of like a, like a bow tie in that sense, it gets bigger and then smaller as it points to Jesus. And then from Jesus, it, it goes wider out into the, the reality of the world we live in now where the church is, is living and active. So, so reflect on this for me. How does the book of Esther point us to the eventual person and work of Jesus Christ? What did you discover?

Well, it's the Providence of, of God, because he, that that's evident from Genesis to revelation and everything points to Christ because the God preserved his people and preserving the line, the, the mites, the, the tribe of Judah and all that stuff to make sure his son got here, you know, for us, I mean, it, ES story is part of the preservation of the line, I think. And without that, and that's really Satan's goal. I mean, every time the Jews turned around, bless their heart, you know, Satan's just after him to take 'em out. You know, we saw that in world war II with Hitler, he just never stops. And, but thanks be to God, you know, God preserved the line and Jesus came and did what he did on the cross, saved us from eternal death. And it all points to Jesus, all points to salvation and just how much God loves us.

Yeah. I, I love that God working in surprising and behind the scenes ways to preserve his people and to save his people. Right. Yeah. And, and, and that's perfect because that's, I mean, that's what Esther did in a, in a, in a smaller but significant way. And then ultimately, that's, that's what Christ has done for all of us, for the whole world. I mean, he, he worked in, in a, in a surprising, subversive way through weakness to upend all the, the power and authority in the world, including the power and authority of sin death in the devil to, to, to make a people for God and preserve a people for God, which includes me and you and every single person who's, who's listening to this or watching this. Right.

What, what a great way to put it. I mean, that's just, that's perfect. Absolutely perfect. And you know, one of the things that if I could just tangent, one of the things that was interesting to me about the book of Esther is why there's huge animosity between Mordecai and Haman, like right from the start and what you realize, what we dig into in the study, stem is their, their lineage, their heritage. It says Mordecai the Jews several times in there, but Mordecai, when you trace his line, he's from the same lineage of Saul, the mite. And when you traced Hamans, it says, Haman, the AGA, well, he with king a G, he was in Amite. And so what happened was when the Israelites were coming out of Egypt and they were worn out and exhausted, the Amalekites, attacked God's people from the rear. And God swore at that point, I will wipe out the Amalekites from the earth. And, you know, later on Saul killed king, Agag all this kind of stuff. So you have this lineage of hatred, um, cause it's like, why won't Mordecai bow. He just met the dude. You know, why is Haman so angry? Just because one guy won't bow and you realize that it's a generational hatred that has been taught. Yes. And that's such a realization for us today is hatred is taught kids. Don't come out of the womb, hating, uh, that is something that's taught that we need to stop in its tracks.

Yeah. And, and goodness, we are, we are, we are still dealing with all the same stuff. Aren't we, we're still dealing with, with hatred, between, between tribes, between cultures, between peoples that goes back generations. That's been taught from one from one to, and, and we're holding onto it and,

Uh, heartbreaking. And we can, yeah, we can help put a stop to that and build bridges instead of burn 'em down.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's powerful. That's really, really powerful. Donna, you, you you've written, you've written several books. Um, tell us, tell us a couple of the other subjects you've tackled in your writing.

Well, let's see the one before this was Nemiah. I, I love the old Testament. I just I'm, I'm a nerd. I love the old Testament, but the, the other one, the one before this was Nemiah, it's called perseverance. And basically how Nemiah persevered, you know, again, being, you know, in Persia, cut, bear to the king, um, how he persevered when God called him to rebuild the wall around Jerusalem and the steps he took, how he persevered to get that accomplished, shows us the steps we can follow in following Christ wholeheartedly. Um, let's see. Another book I've talked about forgiveness. You know, that it's not just lip service, you know, forgiveness and how to do that. The roadblocks, the myths around, uh, forgiveness that I think has been helpful to a lot of people. People

That's a, that's a hard one to live out. It's an it's, it's, it's one thing to receive it Sunday after Sunday. It's a hard thing to give Monday through Saturday, right?

Yeah. When someone experiences a, a life altering hurt, whatever that looks like, boy forgiveness is the last thing on the list.

Yeah. Because, because

Yeah, that's, we've got to do, because if you look at Colosians three where it said the Lord forgave, so you must forgive the, the language there is actually, um, it's a command. It's not a suggestion. Yep. And, uh, it's powerful because, um, we are commanded to forgive. It's suggested to reconcile, but those aren't the same things. Yeah. Yeah. And it's Nathan

Takes too, but it's, but it's such a sacrifice, you know, you know, the, one of the things I've told our people in the past is like, look, forgiveness always requires a death in order for the father to forgive you. It required the death of his son in order for you to forgive your spouse, whoever it is, it's gonna require the death of your right to feel wronged and your right to hold onto it. You're gonna SAC. There's no way to forgive without shedding some, at least metaphorical blood, because someone's gonna have to die. And that's so hard. Right? It's so hard. So I'm glad you've written. I'm glad you've written on that. Cuz man, it's, it's a lesson we will not learn in full until the other side of, uh, the other side of this reality, we find ourselves on called life. You know? Well,

You, the coolest thing I found out last week, I heard this and I, I found it to be so true when it talking about the book of Esther, I wish I'd heard this phrase when I was writing it, but for courage to be present, there's one thing that has to be present also. And that's fear because otherwise, why would you need to be courageous? And I see that in Esther's life fear, she was very afraid of what she had to do, but courage puts us past that fear to step into what God's called us to do.

That's great, Donna, I I'm so thankful that you've been able to be on the program. Uh, your, your book, your new book called chosen a study Ester. It comes out in March, where can we find it?

Uh, it is on pre-order right now. You can actually order it early from cph.org or on Amazon. And it comes out March 2nd and the, uh, to it. I mean, people are so excited about it. It's just, uh, it's an amazing, amazing thing to see.

It sounds like a book for such a time as this. So thank you for writing a it Donna.

Thank you for having me, Matt. This has been such a joy. Yeah,

It's been fun. Let's do it again. Shall we? Okay. And thank you guys for listening in, uh, be sure to join us next time. Thanks guys.

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