It's Youtube's 18th birthday and the young upstart has really come of age! Jo, Andy, and Emily chat to Helen Dugdale about why Youtube became the place to launch kids brands and how established producers are adapting.

Speaker 1

Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Kids Media Club podcast. In each episode, we take a look at what's happening in kids media, talking to producers, creators, journalists and analysts working in and around the industry. I'm Andy Williams. Hello.

Speaker 2

And I'm Joe Redfern. And once again, we have our friend of the show in fact, we've almost adopted her, Emily Horgan, who is our resident kind of analyst and talks about all things data and content. So welcome again, Emily. Thank you for joining us. And we have Helen Dugdale with us today who is a journalist and with whom we wanted to speak today about YouTube after she penned a very interesting article in TB Vision Lately about YouTube.

Speaker 2

Speaker 2

I'll let you say hello in a moment, but yes. And why don't you just kind of kick off and given as you're up some of how following YouTube has come in the 18 years.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so thanks for having me on the show. Well, when I started writing the article, I actually thought YouTube was about 13 years old. So when I realized it was 18 years old, I was quite shocked and felt at aged myself several years and it's just come along so much and it's no longer the younger a little sibling that's annoying.

Speaker 3

The traditional broadcasters, it's kind of like it's got its heritage, it's got roots and respect. It's kind of what they have is one of the big plays and it's not going anywhere. It's only just going to get bigger and stronger. Yeah, I kind of like the way that YouTube is turning 18, and yet the BBC and Disney are both turning 100.

Speaker 3

I feel like that sums up media landscape right now, like YouTube is grown up getting a job like, you know, maybe starting to drive, starting to drink. I'm not sure about that for the future. Well, the other two. Yeah. Respectively say dinosaurs are have been have been in the in the game for, for for a century.

Speaker 2

It's, you know, wouldn't it be great just in my mind and I had a flash of some artist needs to do some kind of family picture some representation of all of these media companies as a family. Wouldn't that be brilliant? Yeah, that that's something for you to draw. And yes. Well, you and Helen, you used the word kind of it's as it's grown up and respect.

Speaker 2

Well, isn't that interesting given that, you know, within our a very recent memory, there wasn't much respect for YouTube. How do you think it's gone about earning it?

Speaker 3

I think because brands are launching on their aren't mean static. You know in the early days brands and content creators put their content on YouTube hoping to be found by one of the broadcasting big broadcasters or one of the big streamers. But now they just content creators like, you know, Snoop Dogg and and sorry, Claude Brock, who's bought out Doggy Land and a show.

Speaker 3

They they brought that straight to YouTube early September. When I spoke to him for the article, he just said they didn't need to go to a streamer, they didn't need to go to a big broadcaster. They were happy with the access that YouTube would bring to their show and and how all kids of all ages and of all from all across the whole of the world to be able to have access to it.

Speaker 3

And they're not looking to take it on. And anywhere else they're obviously for a you know, for conversations with broadcasters along the way. But the confident just want to use YouTube to where to just have the show so it's an honor and that's the key thing I think we're seeing like as you know, it is being seen as an avenue to launch shows.

Speaker 3

And also, I don't think you can launch a show on any platform show for kids on any platform and not having you to have a YouTube presence. I mean, the one that I always think of that is calling out for a strong YouTube presence is Hilda is an awesome Emmy Award winning show on Netflix that lots of people haven't heard of, and it's based on graphic novels, I think, you know, it feels like it's the volume of its findings could be blown out by it being a bit more accessible.

Speaker 3

And, you know, but but the thing is, it shows our shows our shows are launching there and the the democratize the democracies, the democratization of the platform and its accessibility to anybody to just upload anything which obviously has its drawbacks and also has that potential that you don't have to have the big deal with the streamers. You don't have to be like the biggest show in the world.

Speaker 3

I think of shows like MASH and the Bear, which is huge globally now, I think because of its YouTube presence. That's what that's what what helped that show build? Not necessarily, you know, any of the background that it came from. So I think YouTube is just such an opportunity and although it's record with kids and taking care and caretaking that audience isn't stellar.

Speaker 3

Far from center, honestly. But, you know, we all have to admit it's the biggest VOD platform in the world for children. It just is. Yeah. And there's a whole generation is just grown up with it. And you don't remember the world before YouTube do didn't. And they just expect to what they, you know, to expect to find content on their own.

Speaker 3

If it's not the kind of like, well, maybe, you know, not doing anything any further because it's not on the, you know, the platform that they had to straight away.

Speaker 1

I mean, one of the things I find really interesting with YouTube is the relationship with the creators on that platform and how your mindset has to kind of change in a way that's quite different from traditional TV. I mean, even something like I'm interested to see how Deutschland performs because I think sometimes what people underestimate is just, just how much content you've got to feed YouTube to actually to actually get momentum and traction.

Speaker 1

So you've got to have a very different mindset from the traditional TV mindset of, you know, finessing and perfected each episode because it's a, it's a machine that just needs you to be feeding content and it's and it needs you to be communicating with that audience kind of, you know, as much as possible, because it's that is that relationship between the creator and the audience on YouTube, which is a very different relationship to any of the traditional platforms and, and producing the creators assigned to adjust to that.

Speaker 3

I think that, that, yeah, I think they launched with that in mind that they know that the audience want to get up close and personal with them. And also the creators want that, you know, synergy with the audience and Claude and Snoop Dog launch doggy land with 30 episodes already in the bank to go live because they knew that as soon as the hit, you know, as soon as it hit, there'd be the demand for it.

Speaker 3

So since then, they've been watching every new episode, every Tuesday. And if you look at their Instagram as well, that pushes people to YouTube. And the insta interaction on Instagram with young kids wanting to dress up as one of the characters is just phenomenal. And it was it was like that within two weeks of launch. So, you know, you wouldn't get that on a traditional platform, a traditional blockbuster.

Speaker 2

And it's it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, we we've we've discussed about whistle before, which is, yeah, a rabbit hole. I fell down and became a slight obsession for a while. I'm but again interesting in your article when you were speaking to Claude Brooks was, you know, they they made a conscious decision to go straight to YouTube. They didn't want to broadcaster And that is fascinating for me because that's a tipping point we've reached, isn't it?

Speaker 2

You know, we've all come from a background where you are chasing broadcasters. You scraping together money to try and get to markets, to get face time with broadcasters in this seemingly impenetrable world of trying to get your idea to them. And then YouTube quietly comes along and removes or at least lowers a lot of those barriers to entry, but has the potential to bring you a far greater audience and one of the key things that I think and certainly that I'm using in my job now is feedback.

Speaker 2

You know, broadcasters have always been terrible at feeding back to their suppliers viewing figures. And actually there it is on YouTube. Of course, we know moon bag of mustard that all you know you get real time feedback on what kind of episodic content is working, what characters are tracking. You can then use that in a subsequent episode. So it's interesting to hear increasingly creators saying, No, we're not going to broadcasters first.

Speaker 2

They might be part of the mix, but they come much later. Now, because we're going on YouTube first.

Speaker 3

And I was with this question to Claude because obviously, you know, the audience that Snoop brings, I just thought it'd be Iraq, you know, to see a channel in America and going and we've got this news. We're getting some kind of rights going on. A big, big argument about he wants it and they just weren't interested. Maybe further down the line, they saying that, you know, they're not saying that they wouldn't want to do something and they're just really happy with YouTube.

Speaker 3

Obviously, bringing Snoop Dog to the conversation from the get go was turbocharge their YouTube presence and that wouldn't necessarily be typical for a kids brand launching on there without that. You know obviously I think what you what you've said there hasn't about the commitment and being like you need to be all in it's not just the days of well just put it on YouTube.

Speaker 3

That's not how it works. There needs to be a content plan. It doesn't necessarily all need to be high end content. And the like you said, there's ways of repackaging and reserving that is completely acceptable to the algorithm. But you do need to commit upfront and the other thing I think you need like it is a different way of producing and I think a lot of a lot a lot of kids producers that I speak to don't get that.

Speaker 3

They assume that because they can make television, they can make YouTube videos. And I don't think it's the same thing. You need to appreciate it as the platform that it is. And if you're launching a new show there, you need to play to it. And, you know, that's the things that people go to YouTube for the search. You know, you might want to make a great preschool series that hits really deeply home about, you know, particular, you know, emotional learning, etc..

Speaker 3

But if you want to launch it on YouTube, you should launch it with nursery rhymes because that's what people are looking for and that's how you'll start surfacing and then bringing the different content. And that's something that I see. A lot of people think that if they make TV, they can make YouTube videos. It's not the same thing.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and I think that's absolutely right. On the the intention led search aspect of YouTube, I think that really does change the kind of content that you're producing if you understand that that's how people are getting to it.

Speaker 2

And I think I think you're right, Helen. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that. But you know, from from from their point of view, from, from, you know, we're still talking about Snoop and Claude. But, you know, again, back to what Emily said, it's that intention. You're looking for something, but on YouTube, you need to deliver it pretty quickly, don't you?

Speaker 2

Because otherwise there's a million other things they can navigate a way to. And a lot of producers for TV have the luxury of much longer set up for storylines. You know, you've got time. That's one thing you don't necessarily have on YouTube is time. Because if someone is looking particularly for something, you've got to surface it probably within well, first 10 seconds or so or else there's this whole smorgasbord of content that's trying to lure them away.

Speaker 3

I'll say. And what, you know, touching on what Claude said again, he knew that when he came to YouTube with dog land that they were bringing Snoop. So obviously he was going to bring an audience, but also they were kind of remix in and hip hop fire and if that's the word surveyed, so they bring in new lines to nursery rhymes.

Speaker 3

So then all of a sudden you're talking to a cross generation of audiences. You've got Grandads and aunties and uncles who all know these songs, but then the company name when they hear Bob Whistle and the dog Craig kind of rapping. And so obviously they're going to want to watch them with the younger generation. So I think the funny thing about Snoop Dogg is as well though obviously he's got like a super high profile, but you probably would have found a lot of kids, broadcasters who didn't want to go near him because, you know, his reputation in terms of his respect to women and, you know, and I mean, any hold to that, like that's

Speaker 3

part of his shtick. Like, you know, maybe would have been a bit a bit of a turnoff. And yet he's proven that it's not a turnoff to audiences. And we kind of, you know, maybe we talk to ourselves a little bit too much in in kids media and kind of self-flagellating. And we couldn't possibly because, you know, this happened then, but actually the audience are prepared to accept it because he's got that playfulness.

Speaker 2

I think if we go extend that kind of creator question a little bit further, you know, we talk about Mr. Beast as well. You know, Snoop already has a following. And I think, Campbell, his point is really pertinent in that actually it does help on YouTube if you already have a following in a community that you can direct there.

Speaker 2

But, you know, aside from the fact that actually broadcasters might not be the primary choice for your content anymore, that YouTube has also become a launchpad for businesses and for brands. I mean, Mr. Beast is exemplifies that in the sense that you know, one of the biggest creators on YouTube but has been able to launch a business off the back of it is launched festivals, chocolate bars.

Speaker 2

You've got the sidemen who, you know, play a charity football match and get two and a half million concurrent streams on YouTube. You know, that's viewing figures. Some broadcasters would give their eye teeth for. And the sidemen are beginning to launch their own products. Yeah. So how how have you seen YouTube change in terms of its launchpad for not just the kids content, but actually it's a business platform as well.

Speaker 2

Now.

Speaker 3

Yeah, definitely. You know, and going back to the sideman, the whole prime drinks, the, you know, Logan Paul and Kenya side's prime drink. I've got a 14 year old. He spent £8 on one bottle because he didn't want it wouldn't wait until so we could take him to us to that night. It's just phenomenal, isn't it? The range and it all starts from one platform.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's the biggest marketing platform on the planet. And one of the things I think is kind of inspiring about Sideman and Mr. Bass is that you can have people that well, you can have very rich companies that can't dedicate the time to really make the same impact. But you can have young producers that might not be rich, but they're they're rich in time that they can dedicate to that.

Speaker 1

And that makes all the difference. You can really I mean, careers can explode on that and brands as well. It's amazing.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I think we've I've definitely said this before probably to you guys, but it was, you know, that that iteration of Creator 2.03.0 and you know, you're seeing that, you know, where there was like the whole breakthrough YouTube kind of group before with Zoella and Zoe thug and sorry Zoella and her brother Joseph and that crew and and they, they were there they learned the lessons but now the 5 minutes of our coming up, having seen that narrative and that journey play out and they're not making the same mistakes, I would argue.

Speaker 3

You can still see that as well on preschool where you've got, you know, little baby boom. That started as a bit of a a bit of a fluke or they just made it for themselves. And then cocomelon, come on. And I'm going to reiterate it. That arguably little angel, which is the new one acquired by Moon Bug and is kind of the next generation of that.

Speaker 3

Again, it's being it's becoming a lot more intentional because people have seen how it's worked before. It's kind of gone past just the test phase. It's the apply learning phase, you know what I mean? Mm hmm.

Speaker 2

In terms of I'm quite interested in this. You know, I'm reading a lot at the moment about making, you know, finding a niche versus mass. And I think that's something that I can certainly see coming out on YouTube. You've said, Helen, you can almost find anything you want there. And we know that that YouTube YouTube has become a kid's default search engine.

Speaker 2

We we Google stuff, kids YouTube it. You know, my youngest learned how to tie his school tie from a YouTube video. It's anything that they want to know is there and that does create a lot of opportunity for this kind of niche. So what are your views on this kind of. Okay, we've established that YouTube now is garnered respect as a platform that can really create reach, but actually it can also create some quite powerful niche fandoms.

Speaker 3

I'll say. And in the article I explored how content creators are thinking that because there's a lot more freedom around the content on there, you know, there's less people with less restrictions to on trade wants people that they call answer to so there there's more space to explore and stories that kind of look at fluid gender and diversity as well.

Speaker 3

Where is the broadcasters are still a bit kind of standoffish around the army. You know, the barriers are breaking down, but there's still a little bit more scared. So YouTube, it's almost like free rein and the audience that they're talking to, they just text back stories to, you know, to feature stories that aren't necessarily dominated by male or female gender.

Speaker 3

There's a lot more freedom around the. Yeah, and I think you see that like even across the geolocation and stuff like that. You know, it's not just about us content, it can be about it can be content from anywhere. I mean the one thing we're not talking about on YouTube is T-Series, which is the biggest presence on YouTube by by country, you know, derived from India.

Speaker 3

I mean, you know, you're seeing you're seeing that kind of that ability to kind of serve local audiences or even if there are scale, it's somewhere like India. Obviously, locally is a big place and and that that can push through. And, you know, much in the very similar example, it doesn't just have to be, you know, what we kind of all hold in our head is the kind of the Mickey Mouse American content.

Speaker 2

Hmm. I think that that's the nice thing is that it opens the avenues to more content coming coming true. We we spoke on a podcast, one of the previous podcasts about anime and how kids are looking towards lots more anime content. Korean content is really beginning to track, you know, there's, you know, stuff coming out of India and animation that I think ended up on Netflix called The Fukrey Boys, which I first found on YouTube, which is brilliant.

Speaker 2

So again, it kind of, it, it, it reduces a lot of those geo barriers, doesn't it, Emily and ten.

Speaker 3

Kids and it found a do it validates it right like invalidating it doesn't have to be that a kid that looks like this or a kid that looks like that or a person invalidates that. And, you know, you see that with streamer and like who's good game is a big thing. Yeah you know yeah great people are great to telling stories like that.

Speaker 3

Why would that it, why is it such a surprise right.

Speaker 1

Mm. Yeah. And it's so fast to get stuff there. I mean you think about the development process for a traditional broadcaster and, and even if they had all the enthusiasm to, to do something with it, it's still going to take them a year or two before actually land lands on a screen. Whereas with YouTube it can be, it's just kind of almost instantaneous that if you can record it or if you can animate and the animations get in a lot quicker now than it used to be and upload it, then somebody can find it.

Speaker 1

And it's that speed of creation, which I think has kind of totally revolutionized the way people consume content. Yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 3

I have a question for you, Andy, because you're the you're the creative here. I mean, I know in theory that's lovely. But how would you feel about that lens on your own? Like, you know, publishing stuff on YouTube, having to work ten week turnaround, the pressure of the audience feedback like is that is that something you'd welcome? Or like, how would it make you feel?

Speaker 3

Would it make you sweat?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, it depends how much I guess it depends how much you're you're kind of dictated by the algorithms to kind of run run that hamster wheel and. Yeah, I'm not sure really there is there is a is nice sometimes having that barrier and having that space to refine something and you know, you, it doesn't really allow itself to have that if you've got to get something out there immediately.

Speaker 1

That's why people like Mr. Beast or sidemen kind of that stuff really works is that stuff can be put out there quite rapidly if you've got to sit in a writer's room and and work for a couple of drafts of the script, you're just not going to be able to get it uploaded at the same speed.

Speaker 2

And I want to pick up a little bit on something you said there and Andy, but then I'm going to throw it back to both Emily and Helen because I think you both have a viewpoint on it, and it's about that kind of relationship with the audience and what's come through here is that, you know, we've got creators like Mr. Bass, like the sidemen, what they do much better than broadcasters is they get to know their audience.

Speaker 2

They have a really intimate relationship with the audience. And as you said just momentarily a moment ago, Andy, they they give them time. Now, that's very often not something broadcasters can do. They can't get to know their audience intimately because of the time frames and how TV, traditional TV is made. And similarly, they don't very often give them time.

Speaker 2

So to both of you, come to you, Emily, first and then to Helen. So what can traditional broadcasters learn from YouTube and by extension, from creators like Mr. Beast and the Sidemen? How can they what can they learn?

Speaker 3

Yeah, well, I mean, you've kind of hit the nail on the head there, Joe, and it is hard with kids because you're not supposed to be talking to them without their parents there. And when you're in a big grown up broadcaster that's full of paperwork, etc., like that's that's the key barrier. But I think creators like Mr. Beast coming up, you know, they represent such an opportunity and it doesn't even necessarily need to be, you know, creative folks at that at that level, obviously super successful.

Speaker 3

It's people who have grown up with social and YouTube is front and center in their lives. I think have you know, I think that's where the opportunity to listen can be, you know, to understand what their views are on high content should be made, how it should be structured, you know, and not to kind of stay in the the dark ages of like, you know, we do linear broadcasting, therefore we do this, you know, I think that would be a risk factor, honestly, in terms of ever evolving, you know, what we're doing with content and how and how we're speaking to the audience.

Speaker 3

I think that's the real opportunity that creators like Mr. Breathed and young people, young people coming up through and through media really represent because we don't get it like we just don't like. And I would, you know, I love jumping in to new to new new social platforms. Like, you know, I'm on Twitter, but like I'm still a mom talk, right?

Speaker 3

Like it's not that I'm not at the cutting edge of ticked off looking like you know would love to be I just am in school you know so it's trying to going to tap into that that sensibility and and again back to that point of just, you know, just because you can make TV and maybe you've made award winning TV that's been very successful, you know, you need to still have that humility to understand that you can learn you know, and I think that's something that maybe is, you know, needed in a little bit higher quantity.

Speaker 3

The times It was interesting from my point of view when I was right now it's cool. I actually reached out to Mr. Beast and Noam Seidman to try and get them involved, but didn't get any. Well, the Seidman actually said they'd come back to the questions and he didn't want to be involved. So and also speaking to the other people that I spoke, you were involved in in in the interview and they didn't directly want to give feedback on exactly what traditional broadcasters should be doing, which was I thought they would be, you know, happy to help the floor open to them and they'd have loads of content and loads of feedback and but they

Speaker 3

kind of danced around the answers. They kind of said that they need to relax the grip on rules and regulations to make it easier for people to work with them, and also to try a more shorter episodes and shorter versions of the content because, you know, obviously that works really well on YouTube, doesn't it? But they obviously there's a lot of respect still there from YouTube content creators.

Speaker 3

And I think they they see that traditional TV is relevant, still relevant, still are respected. It creates and it's, you know, a great experience and we provide quality content. And yeah, I think they just think that they can both kind of last and there's not space for both of them to be around for a long time.

Speaker 2

Creators like Mr. Beast and the Sidemen and others are mindful that actually there might still be a place for broadcasters in their brand plans. You know, it's still an important platform. So, you know, much as YouTube, I've no doubt could sustain them if they chose only to stay on that platform. They are beginning to look at other platforms Mr. Bass going to take to use a broke broadcast is still do have their place.

Speaker 3

I think the key thing I think the key thing I'll be watching for and I'll be waiting a while for it, but I'm good for it. And with this new this kind of 3.0 generation of creators is how they evolve. But as they get older. Right. Because this is a this is the thing I've heard about, you know, there's, you know, 2.0 or 1.8 and creators on YouTube is that, you know, once once you're 25 or 30, like the people that you're the audience you're speaking to are then 25 or 30, you know, like they're around your age or they've grown up and they've probably grown out of YouTube and they're grown out of, you

Speaker 3

know, I don't think grow out of social media, but their use of it changes it. And then you kind of have to make the decision, are you going to continue to try to talk to the people who are really hot on there in terms of, you know, maybe 13 or, you know, old kids or kids? And, you know, when you're talking about these creators, they're kind of like teenager to early twenties.

Speaker 3

Are you going to continue to talk talking to them? Are you relevant to continue talking to them? Because, you know, if you're 30, you know, is your view your view, you know, probably isn't the same doesn't have the same authenticity or relevance as it would have when you were younger. So it's trying to you know, I think there does come a natural point where so far anyway where creators have to evolve away from YouTube because the audience that there isn't isn't the audience that it used to be for them.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think it's a good point. You know, maybe they're hedging their bets for their future.

Speaker 3

So yeah, it's a great, you know, the five or ten year plan, you know?

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. You know, as you were saying that, I was thinking about Adele with her albums. You know, she's she's grown up making music. She had 19. She had 21. You know, you see the sidemen, you know, one of the sidemen left literally left a charity football match and went to see his newborn, you know, so it's very likely that they will become parents themselves.

Speaker 2

I imagine that will influence the kind of content that they make. Who knows? Let's you know, maybe they're going to be making nursery sideman, nursery rhymes in the next few years. But it will be interesting to see as and it's a nice, nice point at which to kind of wrap up the conversation. You know, as YouTube grows up and turns 18 next year, we're talking about creators and brands on the platform also growing up.

Speaker 2

And actually potentially they might go through their whole life cycle on YouTube and we'll be able to track that and follow that. Let's give the final word to you, Helen. So what in writing that article, clearly you did a lot of thinking and speaking to people around it. What was what was the take out for you? What did you do?

Speaker 2

You get you know what, if you had a crystal ball, what would you say is next for YouTube and its next 18 years?

Speaker 3

I think a lot more of the same. Just a lot more freedom in content and niche market. Also and working with brands and broadcasters away from YouTube as well. You know, like a gateway to work with more traditional broadcasters. I think there's a lot of respect for people on YouTube, for all the brands and then media, media companies.

Speaker 3

And they they want to kind of co-exist together really well.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1

And that's it.

Speaker 3

That's awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you to Emily and thank you to Helen. Lovely to see you.

Speaker 3

Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1

That's all for this episode of Kids Media Club podcast. If you enjoyed it, please like and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for listening and we hope you'll be back for the next one.