Everyone Meant Well. It Ended at Gunpoint

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and I can tell you

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100% of the CEOs that I work with have said to me

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oh I'm amazing

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in their own words I have an open door policy

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everything come everyone can talk to me

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come to me

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and we all are transparent and work things out

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I have never

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my favorite is found that it's just like a family

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I'm like it's just like a family

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yeah because in a family

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you don't have power structures

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that can result in people losing their livelihood

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to feed their kids welcome to all things human

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I'm Adele Wong my guest today is Liane Terrace

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Liane founded a leadership consultancy

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and an executive search

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she has spent 30 years

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watching groups of people work together

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to make decisions

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her book built to think comes out September 17th

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we begin in West Africa

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where Liane was in charge of a 600 person

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security operation

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the head office in California

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has decided to change payroll

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from once every two weeks

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to once a month

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days later the general manager ended up tied up

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and held at gunpoint

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no one in this story was a bad person

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and that's what makes this story so worthwhile

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Liam I wanna start with West Africa

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because I feel like that little story encompasses

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just about everything we're gonna talk about today

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so for the listeners and viewers

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who haven't had the opportunity to get your book yet

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tell us a little bit about that experience

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cause I've got a boatload of questions for you oh

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good just to give a context

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I was leading a national non profit

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and it was my dream job I had a little guy 2 years old

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and my then husband announced

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guess what

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haha

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we're moving to Africa and you're gonna help me build

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or you're gonna help me restructure and reposition

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a large security operation

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so keep in mind

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I've never done anything to do with security

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now we're not talking tech security that I know

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we were talking guns radios yeah

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that kind of security

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within within the next year

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I found myself arriving in a country in tension

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it stabilized and so

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I had arrived into a situation

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where the general manager had recently been taken

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hostage at gunpoint but I arrived soon after that

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everything was good and we went from there

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and so everything I knew about leadership was tested

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everything I knew about engaging people

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under the most extreme circumstances was tested

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so I Learned by fire

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which of my leadership principles were just blah

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blah blah and which of them really really worked

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and so it was an incredible opportunity to

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I'm a passionate learner like you Adele

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I question everything I wanna understand everything

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and I wanna figure out what works with people

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and it's all about the people

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and so I've always had the question of

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how do we help people come together

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make good decisions

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and actually implement things that stick

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and that keep working even when we're under pressure

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even when everyone thinks they have the right answer

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and they just want to be listened to and move forward

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the hostage taking

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was an example of people doing their best

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and coming up with what they thought was the best

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solution

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but not really

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so but so anyways

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that's a little bit of the context

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and so I was in that environment for almost six years

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and I Learned a lot

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I read this story and I said

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oh my gosh just about every

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every leadership quandary question about teamwork

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about communication is right there

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in West Africa

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we don't have to even look to corporate America

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I was curious you mentioned that the country manager

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he cut payroll from twice a week to once a month

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walk me through what he thought he was deciding

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if you were to jump into his skull

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he meant well yes

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what do you think he was thinking of

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when he made that decision

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his mandate often a new GM

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new president is given a mandate

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his mandate was to make this profitable

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it was losing amid six figures every month

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so his mandate was go in and make this profitable

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he wasn't really given a lot else beyond that

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and so what how do you do

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what do you do to make things profitable

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you increase revenue and you reduce cost

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so of course

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what is the fastest way to make profit

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reduce cost

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that is the fastest way most times and often

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it's not necessarily the long term solution

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but it certainly is the short term solution

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and

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head office had identified a number of possibilities

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keep in mind head office was sitting in California

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in comfortable offices in Pasadena

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and they decided these were

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the handful of initiatives that they had identified

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based on reports and information

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that could quickly reduce costs

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and so the the GM arrived with I must reduce cost

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increase profit

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and these are the mandates that they've told me

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hinted to me that they would

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they'd endorsed that this

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they thought this was a good idea

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and so he moved

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this was just within his first within his first month

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I believe and so he took action on

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and one of them was reducing payroll

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going from twice a week to once a month or sorry

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every other week to once a month

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just to give you an idea of the cost savings

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massive amounts of efforts

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because the digital age had not arrived to West Africa

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people did not have bank accounts

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they didn't trust the banks and nor should they

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and so

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people had to physically receive their pay in cash

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you're talking 600 people

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throughout a very large country

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without efficient distribution systems

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so this was taking money out of a bank in massive

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huge hockey bags of rolled up dirty

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smelly cash bills to a secure location

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which eventually I took over this process

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so it was like I felt like I was living in a war zone

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doing exciting things getting it to secure location

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then having that all secured

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portioning out every single person's pay into envelopes

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and cash with little payslips

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and then

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somehow getting that out through motorcycle couriers

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and foot couriers and and cars

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out throughout a massive country

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with lots of challenges to get out

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and with lots of rogue individuals

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who would be happy to intercept a cash

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payroll going out so we had to have decoys

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we had to have everything had to be

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new routes had to be done every time

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we had to do things differently

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we had to do different times because nobody

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we couldn't let anybody figure out the path

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and only a few people could know

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when and where this was happening

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or else we all of our

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all of our payroll would be ambushed and stolen

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doing that every other week was a huge undertaking

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and involved a lot of people and time

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so of course

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logical let's do it once a month

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but there were things that hadn't been thought through

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that he just didn't know about or wasn't aware of

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because it was a top down decision

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yes there are so many beautiful analogies of this

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dramatic situation that lives right here in the US

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we could just replace the players

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I'm struck by how this was a top down decision

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that someone never actually

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asked how the guards lived

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and the question becomes who would have known to ask

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I'm stepping into the leadership

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who would have known to ask

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and so it was a logical decision to the GM

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he's like oh

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that makes sense

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as opposed to having a discipline process

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a thoughtful process of who does this impact

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who needs to be consulted

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who does this touch

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and going out to those people without presupposing

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you know the answer

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right so it was presupposed that oh

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you get paid every other week

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you get paid every month no big deal

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we save a ton of money we reduce our risk

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the the question was never asked

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to the people who were being asked to change

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from biweekly to monthly

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and as a result

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the consequences were dramatic and profound

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and that one moment

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fractured the trust across the organization

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within a day

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yes and so it was like well

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within the moment

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it took a couple of days for it to rupture

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into a gunpoint hostage taking

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and the man who took him hostage got promoted

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yes and I think everyone listening this

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can think of a situation where a decision was made

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from top down sounded logical

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and something happened

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and maybe the hostage takers got promoted

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who made that call

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and what did everyone else learn from that

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it was it was just such an

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I'm a my whole book is built to think right

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helping teams solve problems

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without waiting for permission

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so setting up all of the very simple

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straightforward processes and agreements

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so that we don't have this type of thing happen

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so for me it was just like wow

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I walked into probably one of the most extreme examples

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of how these things logically break

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when we don't follow a discipline

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so one thing to say our values are important

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people first people are the point yes

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our values are important

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and the GM was carrying that value

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he strongly believed to the core of his heart

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the whole reason we went to Guinea

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was because people are the point

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and so despite having that value

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he got caught

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in moving quickly to solve a problem

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without going through a good process

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so nobody asked the guard

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whose payroll supported 17 people

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and whose payroll

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impacted the economics of a whole village

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so just think through it yourself

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you're getting paid every two weeks

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every penny of your pay is has has a purpose

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has a structure

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has a rhythm and you're impacting your whole community

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this wasn't so for all of the guards

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but for a lot of the guards

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particularly those that were outside of the city

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and so because they were highly paid

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relative to most people in

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in in the country and now you get paid

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there was some sort of a no

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there's no memos there's no email

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somewhere through the Grapevine

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you kind of heard that pay was moving

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to monthly whatever you don't think about it

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you allocate your 2 weeks pay

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and then the pay envelope doesn't arrive

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well now

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we have 600 men and four women

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who were critical to securing

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mines

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enterprises expat homes offices throughout the country

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and they were needed existed for a reason

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they weren't just your friendly Walmart security guard

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no these

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these people actively patrolled

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and actively secured these locations

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they had immediate threats almost every day

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now they had no money for food

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their children didn't have food their cousins

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aunties grandmas

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the money wasn't there and then they were told oh

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you got a full month

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you're not being paid for another two weeks

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they didn't really even kind of notice that

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they got more money it was cash

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it went out haha it felt generous this time

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it felt good this time

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and there seemed to be a little extra cool

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but they weren't

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they don't have sophisticated budget systems

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they don't have e transfer systems

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they didn't set it all up smart people

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but they it just worked differently

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and so now this is the situation

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so now you've got 600 people

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impacting thousands of people throughout communities

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who've all of a sudden realized

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they don't have money for food

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and it's not coming for two weeks or by this time

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maybe it's 10 days or whatever it is

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so this happened

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now the hostage taking keep in context right

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remember this all behavior makes sense

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and like you you say Adele

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it's just about getting curious

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it's about asking those questions

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because all behavior does make sense

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so you think

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they took their brand new boss hostage at gunpoint

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and literally tied him up

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bound him gagged him

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put him in a car to a location

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what that's crazy

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but keep in mind it makes sense

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and it just reminds me that there are a lot of smart

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well intentioned people who care about their staff

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none of this happened because someone was mean

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no and it's the

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your book is a lot about the importance of structure

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that just well intentioned or kind

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we are kind people it's interesting

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how powerful structure can be to support these

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these situations that no one thought about in advance

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yeah

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all it would have taken is a question

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yeah and so now you've got broken trust

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trust across the organization

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you've got panic across the organization

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however you have a very resourceful person

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this was the actual private bodyguard of

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the GM so he had access to the GM

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and for whatever reason he had Learned in the past

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that the voice of the guard was never heard

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it was rarely listened to the

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the voice coming up was not listened to

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that's what they had Learned

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and so

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they never even thought about having a conversation

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and don't forget they're also living in a country

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where the voices are not listened to

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it's a very top down

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very authoritarian type of governance

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even though it was democratic

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it wasn't I thought it was like a

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it was a dick

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dictatorship under the guise of a democracy right

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which is pretty common

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I think we're seeing that in our world

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and so they

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this very resourceful person had to move fast

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he needed to communicate urgency quickly

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he needed to get his message out

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and he needed action now

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right and he cared for the people too

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and so his resolution guess what

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hostage taking was a thing in this country

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I had two details all the time'cause guess what

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I stood out ha ha ha

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and this is what people did to get money

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make things happen communicate a message

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they take hostages and this was not an unusual solution

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and so he put two and two together and thought

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what is the fastest way that I can create urgency

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get attention and get action

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put somebody's life on the line

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there you go now

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was he a good person absolutely

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he was passionately thinking about children not eating

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right he was passionately thinking about his team

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his guards his community

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the culture the trust

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absolutely and this was his solution

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now had he communicated

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and used a little bit more of a collaborative process

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he might have come up with a different solution

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but this is what he came up with

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and so here we are

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anytime there is lack of structure or not thinking

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to ask people get very creative

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whether it's in West Africa or in corporate America

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hopefully we're not taking hostages with people anymore

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but left to our devices to get something done

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without structure we get creative

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and sometimes that's not the best solution and

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but we had two two

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two people two groups

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moving at velocity

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without doing consultant collaboration

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moving at velocity

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ending up in this rupture point in the rupture

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and so what did the GM do

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the GM took a breath and he went back to what he knew

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he said look

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let's have a conversation

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and so everyone put guns down untied

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and he promised a conversation

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he promised to listen he promised

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there would be a collaborative

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resolution to the problem

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but he needed to understand

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and so that was it

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they spent hours talking and understanding

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at the end of it he fully understood it

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he understood

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and they came to a conclusion what needed to be done

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and he negotiated with head office

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and they got an emergency bonus out to the field

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within a day or two I think it was about two

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2 days by the time it got out they

408

: 00:17:54

and he put the the hostage taker in charge

409

: 00:17:57

because this guy clearly

410

: 00:17:58

knew how to organize things quickly

411

: 00:18:00

and get and mobilize people'cause he'd mobilized

412

: 00:18:02

the very large portion of people

413

: 00:18:04

to make this hostage taking happen

414

: 00:18:05

as quickly as it did

415

: 00:18:07

without there being actual gunfire or death involved

416

: 00:18:10

he did it very well he did it very

417

: 00:18:12

as thoughtfully and thoroughly as you could

418

: 00:18:14

in a hostage taking to ensure nobody died

419

: 00:18:17

and he was in charge of it

420

: 00:18:18

it happened

421

: 00:18:20

we went back to every other week and by weekly sorry

422

: 00:18:23

and then the trust was rebuilt

423

: 00:18:26

and so putting then as you ask

424

: 00:18:29

you said like

425

: 00:18:30

how did this person get hired

426

: 00:18:31

is so putting this person now in an esteemed

427

: 00:18:34

influential position

428

: 00:18:36

as the voice and representative of the guard force

429

: 00:18:40

they trusted him he had done an amazing thing for them

430

: 00:18:45

he had their back so

431

: 00:18:47

he actually was now the best person for the GM

432

: 00:18:50

to hire for this role

433

: 00:18:52

he

434

: 00:18:54

yeah this simple story

435

: 00:18:55

very rich story illustrates how

436

: 00:18:59

my interest is in how power moves in organizations

437

: 00:19:02

and it doesn't have to be corporate

438

: 00:19:04

it could be your local HOA

439

: 00:19:06

it could be in West Africa

440

: 00:19:08

that in a vacuum

441

: 00:19:10

things move until there is a constraint

442

: 00:19:13

we hope it's not someone being taken hostage

443

: 00:19:16

but it was the thing that eventually caused a change

444

: 00:19:21

that change or structure from what I'm researching

445

: 00:19:25

it doesn't usually just happen out of the blue

446

: 00:19:28

I think of power who's in charge of this

447

: 00:19:30

we can put it on paper

448

: 00:19:33

but my experience has been

449

: 00:19:34

as long as power can be granted

450

: 00:19:37

and taken away by someone's whim

451

: 00:19:42

that's when people get a little nervous

452

: 00:19:44

so I just loved your story

453

: 00:19:46

I wanna move

454

: 00:19:46

I wanna take some of your learnings from that

455

: 00:19:49

into what you're seeing now with corporate America

456

: 00:19:53

and I wanted to start with West Africa

457

: 00:19:55

cause it's a perfect illustration

458

: 00:19:56

of what's already happening here

459

: 00:19:58

yeah and it's dramatic enough

460

: 00:19:59

that we can all see the different layers going on

461

: 00:20:03

you say in your book

462

: 00:20:04

that leaders are rarely the weak link

463

: 00:20:07

and most of them don't actually believe that

464

: 00:20:11

what does it what would you recommend a leader do first

465

: 00:20:14

when they still think that when something falls apart

466

: 00:20:17

that it's a personal failing

467

: 00:20:19

they are not yet

468

: 00:20:21

recognizing how structure plays a huge part in it

469

: 00:20:27

yeah so if you think of the

470

: 00:20:29

if the leader has decided

471

: 00:20:32

she or he is the hero in their organization

472

: 00:20:37

and then things break

473

: 00:20:40

then the hero failed

474

: 00:20:43

and the hero

475

: 00:20:45

the hero is a natural thing that happens with a founder

476

: 00:20:48

you hold the vision you've held the vision

477

: 00:20:52

you've created it you've birthed it

478

: 00:20:55

you've grown it out of the toddler phase

479

: 00:20:57

you've engaged people into your vision

480

: 00:21:00

into your concept and you've started to put process

481

: 00:21:03

and structure around it investment dollars

482

: 00:21:06

shareholders etcetera

483

: 00:21:07

you've grown it now to a teenager

484

: 00:21:10

and now this organization is moving

485

: 00:21:13

but you've been the hero of the story

486

: 00:21:15

all the way through this point

487

: 00:21:17

and what naturally happens is

488

: 00:21:21

that whole process taught everyone who came into that

489

: 00:21:25

that you are the hero because you're amazing

490

: 00:21:27

you have the full context

491

: 00:21:29

you understand everything that's going on

492

: 00:21:31

you understand all the pluses and minuses

493

: 00:21:33

you've been through all the problem solving

494

: 00:21:35

you've been the solver right

495

: 00:21:37

all the way through this you have been the solver

496

: 00:21:39

now it's growing and so when things break

497

: 00:21:43

often the leader or aka the hero goes oh my gosh

498

: 00:21:47

I did it I failed I failed this company

499

: 00:21:49

I some people might have enough ego

500

: 00:21:52

that they're gonna find somebody to blame

501

: 00:21:54

which then just destroys the culture

502

: 00:21:56

and then that's when we see companies

503

: 00:21:58

they go up to teenager

504

: 00:21:59

they have all this possibility hope

505

: 00:22:00

etcetera they may have even had millions fold into them

506

: 00:22:03

but if the leader that now feels like a failed hero

507

: 00:22:06

and they start looking for the

508

: 00:22:08

the people they can blame

509

: 00:22:10

then we see a company that just cracks and falls apart

510

: 00:22:13

and or the board

511

: 00:22:14

or shareholders

512

: 00:22:14

pull that leader and put in somebody new

513

: 00:22:17

that's a very common trend we see

514

: 00:22:19

but let's talk about

515

: 00:22:20

we're at the leader who feels like they failed

516

: 00:22:23

they haven't failed what it is

517

: 00:22:25

it's a signal

518

: 00:22:26

it's a it's something to get their attention to go oh

519

: 00:22:31

I need to switch models

520

: 00:22:33

I need to move from being the solver to the sponsor

521

: 00:22:39

I need to now sponsor people to solve the problems

522

: 00:22:44

and because until the hero makes that switch

523

: 00:22:48

everyone just knows it is easier and safer

524

: 00:22:52

to move the hard stuff up the ladder typically

525

: 00:22:56

give them give the leader more chickens

526

: 00:22:58

it's exactly easier that way

527

: 00:23:00

yeah part of the West Africa story

528

: 00:23:03

if there's more stories from Africa

529

: 00:23:04

you'll understand that

530

: 00:23:05

and I'm intrigued cause from my corporate experience

531

: 00:23:08

I have seen first hand when a team stops thinking

532

: 00:23:14

what do you typically notice

533

: 00:23:16

if a team has made a decision

534

: 00:23:18

oh we think X

535

: 00:23:19

y Z

536

: 00:23:20

and then either the hero or someone outside comes in

537

: 00:23:24

and everything gets overturned

538

: 00:23:27

we see this over and over

539

: 00:23:29

this is the source of a lot of misery

540

: 00:23:31

in corporate America I believe

541

: 00:23:32

this is a source of burnout

542

: 00:23:34

it's not always working people to death

543

: 00:23:37

it's putting your heart and soul into solving a problem

544

: 00:23:40

often with colleagues and having that all negated

545

: 00:23:43

that everything

546

: 00:23:44

everybody listening probably has that experience

547

: 00:23:47

that sense of deflation

548

: 00:23:49

I'm just curious what you have seen

549

: 00:23:51

you're probably brought in after the fact perhaps

550

: 00:23:54

and how do you restore trust

551

: 00:23:57

when it's been just destroyed like that

552

: 00:24:01

yes and you're right Adele

553

: 00:24:02

it's prevalent everywhere

554

: 00:24:03

it's why we have some of the largest

555

: 00:24:05

highest disengagement rates across North America

556

: 00:24:09

it's in Europe as well

557

: 00:24:10

but I don't know those numbers as well

558

: 00:24:11

Gallup of course

559

: 00:24:12

gives us incredible insight and numbers

560

: 00:24:15

and we know that people

561

: 00:24:16

having personal agency is the biggest antidote

562

: 00:24:20

but we destroy it with the example you gave

563

: 00:24:23

perfect example and so

564

: 00:24:25

what happens is

565

: 00:24:26

people learn that their thinking isn't valuable

566

: 00:24:29

people learn that their time is being wasted

567

: 00:24:32

their agency their ingenuity

568

: 00:24:35

their innovation all of those things that we

569

: 00:24:38

as human beings love to be and do

570

: 00:24:40

we love to create we love to resolve

571

: 00:24:43

we love to fix and solve but when that is wasted

572

: 00:24:47

when it goes nowhere when somebody overturns it

573

: 00:24:51

we resign ourselves to just doing our job

574

: 00:24:54

keeping our noses clean

575

: 00:24:56

and keeping safe'cause sometimes when you step out

576

: 00:24:59

a little bit like the guard who took the GM hostage

577

: 00:25:01

he stepped out it worked out well for him

578

: 00:25:04

but in corporate America

579

: 00:25:05

he might have just been fired and exited out the door

580

: 00:25:08

within a day he probably would have been

581

: 00:25:11

and so it uh

582

: 00:25:13

as opposed to looking at why did that behavior happen

583

: 00:25:16

why did that person step up

584

: 00:25:18

so

585

: 00:25:18

very few of us would actually step up and take a risk

586

: 00:25:21

incorporate America and because it's not safe

587

: 00:25:24

or the environment hasn't been made safe

588

: 00:25:27

that we could step out and step out

589

: 00:25:29

plus there's not the structure to do it

590

: 00:25:32

so because things keep get overturned

591

: 00:25:35

or we don't know who actually holds the authority

592

: 00:25:38

there's not clarity and so it's missing the structure

593

: 00:25:41

which actually creates the safety

594

: 00:25:43

which creates trust which creates better solutions

595

: 00:25:47

that's something that it's just yes

596

: 00:25:50

it's something that I feel very passionate about

597

: 00:25:53

that if you're wanting more engagement

598

: 00:25:56

but then you're overruling what people decide

599

: 00:25:59

and sometimes to use your analogy

600

: 00:26:02

the person overruling they're the hero

601

: 00:26:05

I'll come in and save the day

602

: 00:26:07

and they don't realize that what they're doing

603

: 00:26:10

negates a lot of work that's already been done

604

: 00:26:12

I don't think leaders intentionally

605

: 00:26:15

think they're deflating their teams

606

: 00:26:17

or burning their staff out

607

: 00:26:19

yeah what have you found as useful

608

: 00:26:21

to encourage leaders to notice this

609

: 00:26:24

because it takes a lot of restraint

610

: 00:26:28

perhaps

611

: 00:26:29

to not just barrel in there and make the decisions

612

: 00:26:31

for the team for everyone's good for their own good

613

: 00:26:34

this is often diplomatically a little bit tender

614

: 00:26:39

and what have you found works

615

: 00:26:41

because I don't think

616

: 00:26:42

I've spoken to any leaders who admit

617

: 00:26:44

to doing such things they think they're with their team

618

: 00:26:48

they think that their team

619

: 00:26:50

should just be more engaged with them

620

: 00:26:52

but something is missing would you not agree

621

: 00:26:54

I agree it is the first thing I look at and coach on

622

: 00:27:02

it's actually chapter 3 of the book

623

: 00:27:04

and then the rest of the book provides the next steps

624

: 00:27:07

so the the first thing is to move from a mentality of

625

: 00:27:11

I'm the hero and the solver to I'm the sponsor

626

: 00:27:15

so moving the mentality first right

627

: 00:27:18

so we always know that mindset is critical right

628

: 00:27:20

so even though our value is we care about people

629

: 00:27:23

we want the best for everyone

630

: 00:27:24

we know that we've got that

631

: 00:27:26

but how do you make that real

632

: 00:27:28

so the first shift is moving to being the sponsor

633

: 00:27:31

so what I mean by sponsor

634

: 00:27:33

it is my job as a leader to create the conditions

635

: 00:27:37

that people can make good decisions

636

: 00:27:39

for the short term and the long term

637

: 00:27:41

so it is not my job to solve everything

638

: 00:27:44

it is create the conditions

639

: 00:27:46

so then we move into okay

640

: 00:27:48

how do you create those conditions

641

: 00:27:49

so now we've got the mindset right

642

: 00:27:51

so it's like moving from Michael Bungay

643

: 00:27:54

Stanley writes a great book called The Advice Monster

644

: 00:27:58

Right and it's really about moving from being an advice

645

: 00:28:01

monster so being the all knowing solver

646

: 00:28:04

the hero to being a coach

647

: 00:28:06

to being more coach like

648

: 00:28:07

asking those good questions

649

: 00:28:09

and making sure the environment works

650

: 00:28:11

but what does that look like right

651

: 00:28:13

so it's all very well to tell people

652

: 00:28:14

be a solver or be a sponsor and be more coach

653

: 00:28:18

like okay

654

: 00:28:18

now what

655

: 00:28:20

so then we move into the next chapters

656

: 00:28:22

which helps the leader understand

657

: 00:28:24

what the structures are that allow them to do that

658

: 00:28:28

so that they can communicate this to

659

: 00:28:29

more than just in their head

660

: 00:28:31

they can

661

: 00:28:31

easily and quickly communicate this to their team

662

: 00:28:34

and gain agreement and understanding

663

: 00:28:36

and so what that looks like is that the

664

: 00:28:40

let's say we've got a problem

665

: 00:28:42

I call that the signal there's a signal

666

: 00:28:43

there's a problem an opportunity

667

: 00:28:45

maybe a gap of an invasion

668

: 00:28:47

we can possibly capture and be

669

: 00:28:49

become more of a leader so we see a signal

670

: 00:28:51

we need to respond to the signal

671

: 00:28:53

so we need to decide how we're gonna

672

: 00:28:55

respond to the signal you either own it

673

: 00:28:58

or you need to inform somebody

674

: 00:29:00

that you're shifting things slightly

675

: 00:29:02

or you need to maybe check in and do some consulting

676

: 00:29:05

or you actually need to collaborate

677

: 00:29:06

cause it's gonna impact a lot of people

678

: 00:29:08

and you need a lot more resources involved

679

: 00:29:11

so we know we need to bring in the expertise

680

: 00:29:13

we need to bring in the people it's gonna impact

681

: 00:29:16

we need to bring in the people who are participating

682

: 00:29:19

remember all the guards at home

683

: 00:29:20

who didn't get asked the question

684

: 00:29:22

what if we change your pay

685

: 00:29:23

so who's gonna be impacted needs to be involved

686

: 00:29:26

but the No. 1 element that gets missed so often

687

: 00:29:31

and creates this problem is

688

: 00:29:33

it's not made clear who has the authority

689

: 00:29:38

and where does that authority

690

: 00:29:39

where is that authority gonna stick or sit in this

691

: 00:29:43

let's call it a collaboration

692

: 00:29:45

so now think about it this way

693

: 00:29:47

we've got the ultimate authority here was the GM

694

: 00:29:51

if the guards went on their own

695

: 00:29:54

and started to solve a problem that was out there

696

: 00:29:58

but they didn't get the authority

697

: 00:30:01

or the sponsorship from the GM

698

: 00:30:04

then the GM might have

699

: 00:30:06

they might have invested all that time

700

: 00:30:08

you talked about their ideas moving in

701

: 00:30:10

getting and they've got this amazing solution

702

: 00:30:13

they come up with

703

: 00:30:14

and they come back to the GM and the GM goes ah

704

: 00:30:17

I don't think so no

705

: 00:30:18

we don't have a budget oh sorry

706

: 00:30:20

bring it back in 2027 yeah

707

: 00:30:22

no actually

708

: 00:30:23

I've got a team over here already

709

: 00:30:24

working on something similar

710

: 00:30:25

yours doesn't work it's a very

711

: 00:30:27

it's a deflating process so we solve that first

712

: 00:30:30

the sponsor needs to be clear about authority first

713

: 00:30:34

what authority or the person needs to ask right

714

: 00:30:37

so the sponsor can't know everything that's going on

715

: 00:30:39

so whoever wants to go solve something

716

: 00:30:40

they see a signal they see a problem

717

: 00:30:43

they want to solve it

718

: 00:30:44

they know to pull in the right people

719

: 00:30:46

if they can't do it all on their own

720

: 00:30:47

and they need to go get a sponsor

721

: 00:30:49

who has the authority and what authority do they have

722

: 00:30:53

and if the sponsor wants to be part of it

723

: 00:30:56

they're welcome to join

724

: 00:30:58

but they're an equal voice to everybody else

725

: 00:31:01

I think this authority piece is the fundamental key

726

: 00:31:06

that people

727

: 00:31:07

are having trouble wrapping their brains around

728

: 00:31:09

if people know that at any moment it could change

729

: 00:31:13

so you've given me authority to do this

730

: 00:31:17

but I know that you could override me or second guess

731

: 00:31:20

so how much authority you've made me responsible

732

: 00:31:23

but I don't have the authority

733

: 00:31:24

and since I if I'm a manager

734

: 00:31:28

I don't know I've got to manage my risk

735

: 00:31:32

so it's much easier to disengage and send chickens

736

: 00:31:36

then to stick my neck out

737

: 00:31:37

that West Africa story is perfect for how people

738

: 00:31:40

behave when there's a vacuum

739

: 00:31:42

when if you can't trust the authority

740

: 00:31:45

that causes a disengagement

741

: 00:31:47

and my impression is that sometimes

742

: 00:31:50

leaders don't recognize that

743

: 00:31:51

they feel like they are being open

744

: 00:31:54

they feel like they're being consistent

745

: 00:31:56

but the staff is suspiciously quiet

746

: 00:31:59

I I can tell you

747

: 00:32:00

I do an assessment when I go into an organization

748

: 00:32:03

it's kind of like a secret shopper

749

: 00:32:04

so I do an assessment and I can tell you

750

: 00:32:07

100% of the CEOs that I work with have said to me oh

751

: 00:32:10

I'm amazing in their own words

752

: 00:32:13

I have an open door policy

753

: 00:32:16

everything come everyone can talk to me

754

: 00:32:19

come to me

755

: 00:32:20

and we all are transparent and work things out

756

: 00:32:25

I have never

757

: 00:32:26

my favorite is found that it's just like a family

758

: 00:32:28

I'm like no

759

: 00:32:29

it's just like a family yeah

760

: 00:32:30

because in a family you don't have power structures

761

: 00:32:32

that can result in

762

: 00:32:34

people losing their livelihood to feed their kids yeah

763

: 00:32:37

so I've never found that to be true

764

: 00:32:39

that I love the story of the emperor who had

765

: 00:32:41

what is it transparent robes on

766

: 00:32:43

and it was just really actually he was naked

767

: 00:32:46

so it doesn't take a brave courtier to tell the emperor

768

: 00:32:49

that by the way

769

: 00:32:50

ha ha those invisible clothing we can see through it

770

: 00:32:53

you're naked and so it is an important

771

: 00:32:56

is it valuable analogy for CEOs to go oh

772

: 00:32:59

what if I am naked

773

: 00:33:01

I wonder and so one of the rules that or the agreements

774

: 00:33:05

I I prefer the word agreements over rules

775

: 00:33:08

that I work with leadership teams

776

: 00:33:10

as they understand these structures

777

: 00:33:11

is they come to an agreement with the person

778

: 00:33:14

with the authority who might be a president

779

: 00:33:16

a CEO or even just a senior ops leader

780

: 00:33:19

that if we follow the process

781

: 00:33:22

if we engage the right people

782

: 00:33:24

we go through a good

783

: 00:33:25

what I call a seven step problem solving process

784

: 00:33:27

and we consult with the experts

785

: 00:33:30

we engage the participants who are implementing it

786

: 00:33:32

we engage the right people

787

: 00:33:34

and so we come up with a good solution

788

: 00:33:36

that's easy to implement cause everyone was involved

789

: 00:33:39

right we didn't just do a top down and oh surprise

790

: 00:33:42

we don't have money anymore

791

: 00:33:43

so if that process is followed

792

: 00:33:46

the authority

793

: 00:33:46

if we were given the authority to do this process

794

: 00:33:49

and we were given our criteria

795

: 00:33:51

guidelines and our limits

796

: 00:33:52

and we stayed within that

797

: 00:33:54

the authority whether it's whoever the authority is

798

: 00:33:57

they cannot overturn it so they have to support it

799

: 00:34:01

I reserve the right to that's tempting

800

: 00:34:04

that doesn't exist exactly

801

: 00:34:06

and this is perfect segue to my next question

802

: 00:34:10

in your book you have a rule

803

: 00:34:12

that a sponsor can only override something

804

: 00:34:16

if they skip if the team skipped your APEX

805

: 00:34:18

like the 7 processes right

806

: 00:34:20

so but the the sponsor decides what step was skipped

807

: 00:34:24

what stops him from finding one

808

: 00:34:29

stops him from finding a skip step yeah

809

: 00:34:32

cause he gets to decide

810

: 00:34:34

whether a step is skipped or not right yeah

811

: 00:34:36

so through the process

812

: 00:34:38

it's following good problem solving

813

: 00:34:40

where the team is documenting their process

814

: 00:34:44

so throughout it they're documenting

815

: 00:34:46

here's the problem statement that we clarified

816

: 00:34:48

and then what was the criteria that we all worked with

817

: 00:34:51

what was the root cause analysis obviously

818

: 00:34:53

then the criteria we were given

819

: 00:34:55

then what were the alternatives we considered

820

: 00:34:57

what did we weigh it against

821

: 00:34:59

to eventually come up with the solution

822

: 00:35:01

we picked or solutions

823

: 00:35:03

how did we go about structuring our planning

824

: 00:35:05

did we decide on doing some pilots

825

: 00:35:08

and then what feedback mechanisms

826

: 00:35:10

have we built into our process

827

: 00:35:11

so that we can do continuous improvement

828

: 00:35:13

and continuous learning a sponsor is gonna be giving

829

: 00:35:17

getting those updates as the team moves along

830

: 00:35:20

there is a designated person who's

831

: 00:35:22

responsible to ensure that happens

832

: 00:35:24

call them a facilitator or problem solving expert

833

: 00:35:28

whatever else they have

834

: 00:35:29

the expertise in guiding the team through that process

835

: 00:35:32

if they're new if the team's experienced

836

: 00:35:34

somebody just takes that role

837

: 00:35:35

and that is all documented

838

: 00:35:37

of course AI now of course makes it so much easier

839

: 00:35:41

and I love that because there's a bit more transparency

840

: 00:35:45

for the for listeners who don't know

841

: 00:35:47

Leanne and I both have a quality science background

842

: 00:35:49

and that is so important for decision makers

843

: 00:35:54

so that things are not only based on gut or

844

: 00:35:58

we love intuition

845

: 00:36:00

but what happens when people feel insecure

846

: 00:36:03

with the vacuum is

847

: 00:36:04

it depends on how he feels

848

: 00:36:05

he might decide this he might decide that

849

: 00:36:07

it's vague but when you have documented a

850

: 00:36:11

B and C that for everyone to see

851

: 00:36:14

there's not as much questioning

852

: 00:36:16

the decisions seem to have much more basis

853

: 00:36:20

so I think that's really great

854

: 00:36:22

that your process has a certain amount of rigor

855

: 00:36:26

which is from my point of view

856

: 00:36:28

working with leaders is often missing

857

: 00:36:30

it's sort of yeah

858

: 00:36:31

people are used to gut feel

859

: 00:36:32

which is fine but not for everything

860

: 00:36:35

especially when teams are involved

861

: 00:36:38

yeah I think you're pointing to something that's really

862

: 00:36:40

important and I just want to emphasize that

863

: 00:36:42

the biggest challenge we have without that discipline

864

: 00:36:46

or that rigor if we go into the world of academics

865

: 00:36:49

rigor is something that defines them

866

: 00:36:53

oh it's the name of the game

867

: 00:36:54

it is it is it

868

: 00:36:55

you don't follow the research rigor

869

: 00:36:58

you are out

870

: 00:37:00

you no longer qualified to be in the academia world

871

: 00:37:03

you are not published you are not even regarded

872

: 00:37:06

so that's discipline of process

873

: 00:37:10

of doing things well and right

874

: 00:37:12

so that we come up with the best solution we can

875

: 00:37:15

within the criteria within the resources

876

: 00:37:17

within the short and long term consideration

877

: 00:37:21

that is the rigor the discipline of business

878

: 00:37:24

and it's not that we can't move fast

879

: 00:37:26

I argue that actually when you have discipline

880

: 00:37:29

you can move faster because guess what

881

: 00:37:32

when you don't when you move fast

882

: 00:37:34

this is what happened with the guard situation

883

: 00:37:36

with the hostage situation

884

: 00:37:38

they thought that going from we have a problem

885

: 00:37:43

children don't have food to the solution

886

: 00:37:47

and that is the biggest challenge teams have

887

: 00:37:51

because they have the whirlwind

888

: 00:37:53

and the urgency and the overwhelm

889

: 00:37:56

and somebody breathing down their neck

890

: 00:37:57

to perform and get results

891

: 00:38:00

so they go from I see a problem to here's the solution

892

: 00:38:03

and when we miss the discipline in between

893

: 00:38:06

we end up with

894

: 00:38:07

solutions that do not consider all the elements

895

: 00:38:10

that really are critical to the best solution

896

: 00:38:14

because we haven't considered who's gonna implement it

897

: 00:38:17

how does it impact them how does it impact our criteria

898

: 00:38:20

how does it impact our compliance

899

: 00:38:22

how does it impact our it systems

900

: 00:38:24

can we actually do this within our our infrastructure

901

: 00:38:28

so there's without falling a discipline

902

: 00:38:31

we go from problem to solution

903

: 00:38:33

and it's always gonna be reworked

904

: 00:38:36

it's gonna hit resistance

905

: 00:38:37

it's gonna hit it's gonna create Learned

906

: 00:38:39

helplessness'cause people give up

907

: 00:38:41

trying to give feedback and they just execute it

908

: 00:38:43

even though they know

909

: 00:38:44

it's the stupidest idea in the world

910

: 00:38:46

they ignore it

911

: 00:38:47

or you just break trust throughout the organization

912

: 00:38:50

like the the in the security situation

913

: 00:38:52

and when we break trust

914

: 00:38:54

it's really hard to recover absolutely

915

: 00:38:57

I think there's a myth or a presupposition

916

: 00:39:01

that a rigor and discipline just takes too long

917

: 00:39:04

we don't have time for that

918

: 00:39:05

we don't have time for that

919

: 00:39:06

like nobody has time for the most important elements

920

: 00:39:09

but how much time do you have for rework

921

: 00:39:12

how much time do you have for

922

: 00:39:14

losing trust of your employees

923

: 00:39:15

that's very expensive but if you have a process

924

: 00:39:19

getting the background data or whatever

925

: 00:39:22

doesn't take that long'cause you know

926

: 00:39:23

the questions to ask very efficient

927

: 00:39:25

so these meetings don't have to be wordy and long

928

: 00:39:28

just question answer it's very efficient

929

: 00:39:31

when people know how to work a structure

930

: 00:39:34

a a process if you don't know

931

: 00:39:38

then you're fumbling in the dark with every meeting

932

: 00:39:39

and that is frustrating wouldn't you agree

933

: 00:39:42

that's when people just say

934

: 00:39:43

I can't handle any more meetings

935

: 00:39:44

I just gotta get work done

936

: 00:39:46

exactly we are very poor in processes in general

937

: 00:39:49

running meetings oh my gosh

938

: 00:39:51

wasted time people can't stand meetings

939

: 00:39:54

my experience has been that

940

: 00:39:55

if you know what you're doing

941

: 00:39:57

meetings can be Uber efficient yeah

942

: 00:40:00

they can be enjoyable it's a time for people to connect

943

: 00:40:03

people actually look forward to meetings

944

: 00:40:05

I know that's unheard of right now

945

: 00:40:06

because many meetings are so poorly run

946

: 00:40:09

because we don't have process yeah

947

: 00:40:11

so the companies that I work with within

948

: 00:40:15

it it's not it's not an overnight

949

: 00:40:17

it takes everybody takes time

950

: 00:40:19

but within six months to a year

951

: 00:40:22

I'll give I'll go into their initial meetings

952

: 00:40:24

and I'm doing an assessment

953

: 00:40:25

and supporting them to go through

954

: 00:40:27

a transformation that they are looking for

955

: 00:40:29

they're wanting

956

: 00:40:30

they know things are broken and work is broken right

957

: 00:40:33

it's not working

958

: 00:40:34

so they want to go through this transformation

959

: 00:40:36

that's an important first step

960

: 00:40:37

but then from a meeting at the beginning of the year

961

: 00:40:40

which maybe went for four hours and went nowhere

962

: 00:40:43

and then nobody really was quite sure what we agree on

963

: 00:40:46

and then guess what the next meeting

964

: 00:40:47

it starts all over again to walking into their meetings

965

: 00:40:51

which is where I just find it so exciting

966

: 00:40:53

walking into a meeting that's 45 minutes long bang

967

: 00:40:56

decisions made things work through parking lots

968

: 00:40:59

managed action items it's very exciting

969

: 00:41:02

I'm gonna give an analogy that I use

970

: 00:41:04

to help people really see this picture

971

: 00:41:06

cause we can all

972

: 00:41:07

we all understand the meeting that didn't go anywhere

973

: 00:41:09

we all get that

974

: 00:41:10

but imagine if two soccer teams arrived on the field

975

: 00:41:16

and they actually didn't have a game in mind

976

: 00:41:21

they just arrived on the field

977

: 00:41:22

a whole bunch of people

978

: 00:41:23

they had different jerseys on and somebody said

979

: 00:41:26

what shall we play we have this round ball

980

: 00:41:30

how long is it gonna take them

981

: 00:41:32

before they can actually start playing the game

982

: 00:41:36

right

983

: 00:41:36

they've got to decide what can you touch on the ball

984

: 00:41:40

where's the ball go what is the goal

985

: 00:41:42

we are kind of goal oriented so we're gonna have a goal

986

: 00:41:44

how do we count a goal what does the goal

987

: 00:41:46

look like who can get to the goal

988

: 00:41:48

and then we're gonna get into this game

989

: 00:41:49

we're gonna realize oh

990

: 00:41:50

we need to kind of think about off sides

991

: 00:41:52

cause you can't just plant somebody beside the goal

992

: 00:41:54

and lob a ball all the way over and have them score

993

: 00:41:56

that's just not a fair game so okay

994

: 00:41:59

we're gonna put in offside and then oh

995

: 00:42:01

somebody kicks somebody somebody mashed somebody down

996

: 00:42:03

that's not very sportsmanship that doesn't work okay

997

: 00:42:05

so we have to put in some rules how do we put in rules

998

: 00:42:08

we're gonna have penalties and we're gonna have cards

999

: 00:42:10

so you just realize

: 1000

00:42:11,666 --> 00:42:14,300

the complexity of rules and agreements that

: 1001

00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:17,966

that grow so that now when you have a soccer game

: 1002

00:42:17,966 --> 00:42:21,366

run under whatever association rules and guidelines

: 1003

00:42:21,366 --> 00:42:22,500

everyone walks on the field

: 1004

00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:25,200

and they know exactly what they're playing with

: 1005

00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,233

and how to play and how to work together

: 1006

00:42:27,233 --> 00:42:29,233

and how to manage things

: 1007

00:42:29,233 --> 00:42:30,766

and you've got a referee in there

: 1008

00:42:30,766 --> 00:42:31,900

supporting the process

: 1009

00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:34,000

making sure everyone stays on track

: 1010

00:42:34,166 --> 00:42:38,466

that is discipline that's the discipline that that I'm

: 1011

00:42:38,466 --> 00:42:40,566

I'm bringing in in in my

: 1012

00:42:40,666 --> 00:42:42,300

with my private client engagements

: 1013

00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:44,266

is I'm helping the team agree

: 1014

00:42:44,266 --> 00:42:45,400

and they all do it uniquely

: 1015

00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,033

every organization is there's no cookie cutter

: 1016

00:42:48,033 --> 00:42:50,300

but they all follow the same principles right

: 1017

00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:51,200

we all

: 1018

00:42:51,366 --> 00:42:55,500

are converging on the same principles of what works

: 1019

00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,100

I think discipline that word scares people

: 1020

00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:01,466

they think it's almost punitive or restrictive

: 1021

00:43:01,466 --> 00:43:02,766

and I want freedom

: 1022

00:43:02,766 --> 00:43:05,600

don't tell me what I can and cannot do

: 1023

00:43:05,633 --> 00:43:09,200

but it can be such a strength because without it

: 1024

00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,866

without structure without discipline

: 1025

00:43:11,966 --> 00:43:13,833

and all the things that we're passionate about

: 1026

00:43:13,833 --> 00:43:15,666

I'm very much a structure person

: 1027

00:43:15,666 --> 00:43:17,833

I need to see how things move

: 1028

00:43:17,833 --> 00:43:19,266

if you don't have that

: 1029

00:43:19,266 --> 00:43:22,533

you are left with everything being kind of

: 1030

00:43:22,766 --> 00:43:24,333

personality driven

: 1031

00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,166

and there's nothing wrong with team dynamics

: 1032

00:43:26,166 --> 00:43:27,800

and non violent communication

: 1033

00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,400

and Myers Briggs and all these things

: 1034

00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,400

these tools that are designed to help you

: 1035

00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,266

it's useful but without structure

: 1036

00:43:35,466 --> 00:43:36,633

that is exhausting

: 1037

00:43:36,633 --> 00:43:39,033

you're relying on charisma to move people

: 1038

00:43:39,033 --> 00:43:41,566

instead of data it doesn't have to feel rushed

: 1039

00:43:41,766 --> 00:43:43,433

it doesn't have to feel restrictive

: 1040

00:43:43,433 --> 00:43:44,766

but right now

: 1041

00:43:44,833 --> 00:43:48,000

many meetings in trying to force structure

: 1042

00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,800

they feel very stifled

: 1043

00:43:50,033 --> 00:43:52,433

you can feel it rumbling under the surface

: 1044

00:43:52,433 --> 00:43:55,133

that something never quite sat right

: 1045

00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,900

but it's rumbling and people just go along with it

: 1046

00:43:57,900 --> 00:43:59,633

yes and have you noticed that

: 1047

00:43:59,633 --> 00:44:02,400

like when people try to impose a structure

: 1048

00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:05,300

without a discipline of some kind

: 1049

00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:09,633

that has data behind it no one can really feel secure

: 1050

00:44:09,633 --> 00:44:11,033

it's just okay

: 1051

00:44:11,033 --> 00:44:13,166

we're expected only 10 minutes on this topic

: 1052

00:44:13,166 --> 00:44:15,366

five minutes on that and that's it

: 1053

00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:16,500

have you noticed that

: 1054

00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:19,633

when people try to put meeting structure on there

: 1055

00:44:19,633 --> 00:44:22,800

without the discipline behind it

: 1056

00:44:23,033 --> 00:44:26,833

yes so I do bring in personality right

: 1057

00:44:26,833 --> 00:44:27,600

I like I appreciate

: 1058

00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,400

I know you do and I'm all for it

: 1059

00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,233

but I'm saying without what we're talking

: 1060

00:44:31,233 --> 00:44:32,500

because what happens is the

: 1061

00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:33,800

is what I call the yellow

: 1062

00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,066

the administrator

: 1063

00:44:35,166 --> 00:44:38,600

they're amazing at bringing process and structure

: 1064

00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:39,900

and building the discipline

: 1065

00:44:40,033 --> 00:44:42,866

so they are the ones who are most pained

: 1066

00:44:42,866 --> 00:44:45,266

when a meeting isn't following a good process

: 1067

00:44:45,266 --> 00:44:47,733

or it's wandering all over the place right

: 1068

00:44:47,900 --> 00:44:49,833

they're the ones who are most pained by it

: 1069

00:44:49,833 --> 00:44:52,700

and if they have any kind of authority or as you say

: 1070

00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:56,333

charisma or they hold authority positional authority

: 1071

00:44:56,466 --> 00:44:59,166

they will bring in some sort of structure

: 1072

00:44:59,166 --> 00:45:02,933

but their personality style is very structured haha

: 1073

00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:06,133

and it may be a little bit more to the extreme

: 1074

00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:12,633

and so the the team needs to recognize when we

: 1075

00:45:12,633 --> 00:45:15,266

we do divergent thinking

: 1076

00:45:15,266 --> 00:45:17,700

and when we do convergent thinking

: 1077

00:45:18,066 --> 00:45:19,366

and so the

: 1078

00:45:19,366 --> 00:45:23,466

the sort of the very linear structured person can't

: 1079

00:45:23,466 --> 00:45:26,066

can't always hold that throughout the meeting

: 1080

00:45:26,166 --> 00:45:28,000

there are points and times

: 1081

00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,633

it's a flow it's an ebb and flow

: 1082

00:45:29,633 --> 00:45:32,133

is it the discipline is actually an ebb and flow

: 1083

00:45:32,566 --> 00:45:34,000

where we go out

: 1084

00:45:34,666 --> 00:45:38,433

where we hear and listen and understand everyone

: 1085

00:45:38,433 --> 00:45:40,500

and then we have a collaborative process

: 1086

00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:42,066

to come back in again

: 1087

00:45:42,266 --> 00:45:44,100

for a final decision and we do that

: 1088

00:45:44,100 --> 00:45:47,266

that the discipline runs through that because that

: 1089

00:45:47,266 --> 00:45:48,500

what you've described

: 1090

00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:51,866

is somebody who's decided how it will be

: 1091

00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:52,833

and guess what

: 1092

00:45:52,833 --> 00:45:54,966

they actually have the answer in their mind

: 1093

00:45:54,966 --> 00:45:56,100

and all they're trying to do is

: 1094

00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:59,300

drive everyone to their answer yes

: 1095

00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:00,966

yeah and everyone means well

: 1096

00:46:00,966 --> 00:46:04,566

everyone's like that manager in West Africa

: 1097

00:46:04,566 --> 00:46:07,866

nobody is trying to be nasty about it

: 1098

00:46:07,866 --> 00:46:09,633

they're trying to get stuff done

: 1099

00:46:09,633 --> 00:46:10,966

yeah and

: 1100

00:46:11,033 --> 00:46:12,766

cause I just love this

: 1101

00:46:12,766 --> 00:46:14,600

because I can feel the complexities involved

: 1102

00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,600

there's no one right answer

: 1103

00:46:16,833 --> 00:46:19,300

and many leaders just tell me what I'm supposed to do

: 1104

00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:20,566

no at this point

: 1105

00:46:20,566 --> 00:46:22,266

you're building the muscle

: 1106

00:46:22,266 --> 00:46:23,800

you're building the resilience

: 1107

00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,633

to handle even more complexity

: 1108

00:46:25,633 --> 00:46:29,066

especially with AI especially with AI

: 1109

00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,333

that it's the human element

: 1110

00:46:31,733 --> 00:46:33,166

we're hearing over and over

: 1111

00:46:33,166 --> 00:46:33,700

how

: 1112

00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,000

the human element is so important in the world of AI

: 1113

00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:40,200

and it hasn't been articulated clearly enough yet

: 1114

00:46:40,266 --> 00:46:41,966

what that means and so

: 1115

00:46:41,966 --> 00:46:44,866

I love these conversations with the level of detail

: 1116

00:46:44,866 --> 00:46:45,700

that hopefully

: 1117

00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:46,866

if you're listening to this

: 1118

00:46:46,866 --> 00:46:49,833

you have experienced what it's like to be

: 1119

00:46:49,833 --> 00:46:52,066

the manager that just charges for the answer

: 1120

00:46:52,066 --> 00:46:53,100

or you've been

: 1121

00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:54,766

offering chickens to your boss'cause

: 1122

00:46:54,766 --> 00:46:56,766

you just don't wanna deal with the hard problem

: 1123

00:46:56,766 --> 00:46:59,966

or you just disengage I've been all those

: 1124

00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,733

so we Learned through the school of hard knocks

: 1125

00:47:03,633 --> 00:47:05,166

so I like that you mentioned the

: 1126

00:47:05,166 --> 00:47:08,400

how important the foundations are before AI comes in

: 1127

00:47:08,633 --> 00:47:12,066

AI is actually what created my personal urgency

: 1128

00:47:12,066 --> 00:47:16,100

to finally get everything I've Learned over 30 years

: 1129

00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:17,666

and all the pieces I've put together

: 1130

00:47:17,666 --> 00:47:19,166

to support my private clients

: 1131

00:47:19,266 --> 00:47:21,266

into a book like you Adele

: 1132

00:47:21,266 --> 00:47:23,300

I'm very service oriented

: 1133

00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:24,800

those who watch my bank account

: 1134

00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,400

my accounts would say to a fault

: 1135

00:47:26,866 --> 00:47:29,333

but that is what I choose to be in my world

: 1136

00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,566

and so I am passionate about people having

: 1137

00:47:32,633 --> 00:47:35,200

great places to work and so

: 1138

00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,333

when I saw what AI was doing

: 1139

00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,666

in organizations that didn't have good foundations

: 1140

00:47:42,166 --> 00:47:45,366

I could see it just really cracking that trust

: 1141

00:47:45,833 --> 00:47:46,966

in a massive ways

: 1142

00:47:46,966 --> 00:47:50,066

and or creating even more broken work places

: 1143

00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:53,033

so all the promise of AI which is exciting

: 1144

00:47:53,033 --> 00:47:55,300

and I've been studying it like you for gosh

: 1145

00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:58,066

I guess we're up to getting close to four years now

: 1146

00:47:58,166 --> 00:47:59,300

working to become an expert

: 1147

00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:00,200

and then it moves out

: 1148

00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,700

the expertise benchmark keeps moving right

: 1149

00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:03,600

so we just have every

: 1150

00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,600

every week we have to study and learn

: 1151

00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,466

but humans we remain the same

: 1152

00:48:08,466 --> 00:48:10,666

with all of our neuroses and problems

: 1153

00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:12,033

we haven't shifted yeah

: 1154

00:48:12,033 --> 00:48:13,700

we need that foundation

: 1155

00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,366

that's why I'm so passionate about these conversations

: 1156

00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,600

around the human element of power

: 1157

00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:20,500

decision making leadership

: 1158

00:48:20,633 --> 00:48:23,733

because it's not always going to be about

: 1159

00:48:23,766 --> 00:48:26,300

charming people or it

: 1160

00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,300

people have relied on that skill

: 1161

00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:30,666

because there is a vacuum

: 1162

00:48:30,666 --> 00:48:31,866

if you're negotiating with

: 1163

00:48:31,866 --> 00:48:33,366

especially cross departmental

: 1164

00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,666

cross functional things when the structure is very weak

: 1165

00:48:37,033 --> 00:48:39,233

then you're left with relationship building

: 1166

00:48:39,233 --> 00:48:41,566

which is important but it's fragile

: 1167

00:48:41,566 --> 00:48:44,833

it doesn't have the full depth of

: 1168

00:48:44,833 --> 00:48:46,200

if structure supported that

: 1169

00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,500

oh my gosh I'm sure you've seen it

: 1170

00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:50,866

and I have to ask you this burning question

: 1171

00:48:50,866 --> 00:48:52,566

it felt it feels like

: 1172

00:48:52,566 --> 00:48:54,466

when there's something that can't be resolved

: 1173

00:48:54,466 --> 00:48:58,800

by the team the it gets escalated to the sponsor

: 1174

00:48:59,033 --> 00:49:00,366

and the sponsor says

: 1175

00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:02,900

you're in charge if you can't handle it

: 1176

00:49:02,966 --> 00:49:05,000

the the role is to escalate to me

: 1177

00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,600

and that sounds groovy

: 1178

00:49:07,066 --> 00:49:10,433

what happens in your APEX model a means authority

: 1179

00:49:10,433 --> 00:49:12,600

by the way everybody when

: 1180

00:49:12,866 --> 00:49:14,733

if it's cross functional

: 1181

00:49:15,166 --> 00:49:18,933

is no one to escalate a problem to

: 1182

00:49:20,066 --> 00:49:21,866

how would your model handle that

: 1183

00:49:21,866 --> 00:49:25,400

because that is a problem that is starting to bubble up

: 1184

00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,500

now with AI that everyone is doing their job

: 1185

00:49:29,366 --> 00:49:30,500

doing it well

: 1186

00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:34,966

and these these different objectives don't align

: 1187

00:49:35,866 --> 00:49:37,366

and there is

: 1188

00:49:37,366 --> 00:49:41,133

what do you do when there's no owner of to make that s

: 1189

00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,600

that problem escalated to yeah

: 1190

00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,700

I that is totally a great example

: 1191

00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:49,600

because it's what AI is creating

: 1192

00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,633

it's coming it's coming and more and more so

: 1193

00:49:51,633 --> 00:49:54,866

because the AI solution can

: 1194

00:49:54,866 --> 00:49:57,833

could completely transform what a company does right

: 1195

00:49:57,833 --> 00:49:59,033

and how it does it

: 1196

00:49:59,033 --> 00:50:01,666

because they need to respond to their clients

: 1197

00:50:01,666 --> 00:50:02,300

expectations

: 1198

00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:05,200

user expectations or a complete market shift

: 1199

00:50:05,433 --> 00:50:06,666

and so the company

: 1200

00:50:06,666 --> 00:50:11,333

the buggy whip company that was super disciplined

: 1201

00:50:11,766 --> 00:50:13,766

they were really good at problem solving

: 1202

00:50:13,766 --> 00:50:15,766

they had the most efficient factory

: 1203

00:50:15,766 --> 00:50:18,866

and good profit margins producing buggy whips

: 1204

00:50:19,100 --> 00:50:20,300

that organization

: 1205

00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:22,233

that didn't pay attention to the signals

: 1206

00:50:22,233 --> 00:50:24,933

of opportunity and or changing markets

: 1207

00:50:25,033 --> 00:50:26,133

they went under

: 1208

00:50:26,366 --> 00:50:29,266

as opposed to a company like Nokia kind of got stuck

: 1209

00:50:29,266 --> 00:50:32,600

but initially what was Nokia doing prior to cell phones

: 1210

00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,533

it had nothing to do with cell phones

: 1211

00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:36,033

and they're a fascinating story

: 1212

00:50:36,033 --> 00:50:38,000

and IKEA also a fascinating story

: 1213

00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,300

but of course both of them then got stuck in their own

: 1214

00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:41,600

kind of gotten their own way

: 1215

00:50:42,033 --> 00:50:46,766

but it's responding to how do we as an organization

: 1216

00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,000

follow our good disciplines and our good processes

: 1217

00:50:50,066 --> 00:50:52,066

but actually respond

: 1218

00:50:52,066 --> 00:50:55,100

and look at things at an organizational level

: 1219

00:50:55,166 --> 00:50:56,866

and look at the marketplace

: 1220

00:50:56,866 --> 00:50:59,466

and so I actually have an annual process

: 1221

00:50:59,466 --> 00:51:00,866

could be biannual now I think

: 1222

00:51:00,866 --> 00:51:01,500

I'm going to

: 1223

00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:03,066

encourage people to think of it as biannual

: 1224

00:51:03,066 --> 00:51:04,566

because things are moving so fast

: 1225

00:51:04,833 --> 00:51:06,200

but an annual process

: 1226

00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,400

that the senior leadership team goes through

: 1227

00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:09,600

and it's called I call it

: 1228

00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,266

it's looking around corners

: 1229

00:51:11,766 --> 00:51:13,366

don't go a lot into that in the book

: 1230

00:51:13,366 --> 00:51:16,100

but give you there's some materials that go off

: 1231

00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:18,100

resources that go off the side of it

: 1232

00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:20,366

but it's around it's about looking around corners

: 1233

00:51:20,366 --> 00:51:22,666

so as a team is maybe building something

: 1234

00:51:22,666 --> 00:51:24,166

and growing something in their solution

: 1235

00:51:24,166 --> 00:51:26,066

and they realize there

: 1236

00:51:26,066 --> 00:51:27,900

we need to do this is something bigger

: 1237

00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:30,433

like it either was gonna take a massive investment

: 1238

00:51:30,433 --> 00:51:32,966

or it's a complete shift it's like

: 1239

00:51:32,966 --> 00:51:35,633

they realize that just solving it within

: 1240

00:51:35,633 --> 00:51:37,466

their constraints of their company

: 1241

00:51:37,466 --> 00:51:39,200

isn't going to solve things

: 1242

00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:40,900

they need to go beyond that

: 1243

00:51:40,900 --> 00:51:46,266

and that's where you have a leadership team or a

: 1244

00:51:46,266 --> 00:51:50,566

you form a team that is about looking around corners

: 1245

00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:53,233

and doing that on a regular basis

: 1246

00:51:53,233 --> 00:51:55,700

ensures that you don't get caught off guard

: 1247

00:51:55,833 --> 00:51:58,666

so you've got a team that is in charge of

: 1248

00:51:58,666 --> 00:52:00,566

outside of their regular day to day rules

: 1249

00:52:00,566 --> 00:52:01,700

they come out of that role

: 1250

00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:03,466

they're collectively in a team

: 1251

00:52:03,566 --> 00:52:06,700

and they're looking at technology shifts

: 1252

00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,766

marketplace shifts competitors shifts

: 1253

00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:10,833

you so their

: 1254

00:52:10,833 --> 00:52:12,666

what their clients are experiencing

: 1255

00:52:12,666 --> 00:52:13,933

different or shifting

: 1256

00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,000

the assumptions that they have in place

: 1257

00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,366

are those still true

: 1258

00:52:17,366 --> 00:52:20,533

so it is doing it's also called strategic planning

: 1259

00:52:20,566 --> 00:52:23,166

but I like calling it looking around corners haha

: 1260

00:52:23,866 --> 00:52:24,900

oh I love this

: 1261

00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:27,966

because I have felt that what you're talking about

: 1262

00:52:28,033 --> 00:52:30,066

is really the next level of leadership

: 1263

00:52:30,066 --> 00:52:33,400

we haven't had a chance to develop those muscles yet

: 1264

00:52:33,566 --> 00:52:35,600

because we haven't got the basics down

: 1265

00:52:35,633 --> 00:52:37,466

if you don't even have the basics

: 1266

00:52:37,466 --> 00:52:40,266

and you want to do strategic planning at that level

: 1267

00:52:40,266 --> 00:52:40,900

it doesn't work

: 1268

00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:44,000

it's like people want to run before they can crawl

: 1269

00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,300

and they're just yelling at people to hurry up

: 1270

00:52:46,566 --> 00:52:48,166

and that doesn't work too well

: 1271

00:52:48,166 --> 00:52:50,466

so if you've got a senior ops leader

: 1272

00:52:50,466 --> 00:52:53,233

who is working 10 hour days

: 1273

00:52:53,233 --> 00:52:54,766

and then putting in weekends

: 1274

00:52:54,766 --> 00:52:58,700

and she's managing a family or he's managing a family

: 1275

00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:00,966

and they kind of love to have dinner together

: 1276

00:53:00,966 --> 00:53:03,200

maybe even take the kids to baseball on the weekend

: 1277

00:53:03,233 --> 00:53:06,233

and that's being crossed out on a regular basis

: 1278

00:53:06,233 --> 00:53:08,666

because of just the the low

: 1279

00:53:08,666 --> 00:53:10,700

the whirlwind of the day

: 1280

00:53:10,766 --> 00:53:12,966

to ask that person to sit out for two days

: 1281

00:53:12,966 --> 00:53:15,000

and do some data analysis

: 1282

00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,266

market research which of course AI is gonna help them

: 1283

00:53:17,266 --> 00:53:20,500

but it's a big ask but it's critical because otherwise

: 1284

00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:23,000

they're gonna be the best buggy whip company

: 1285

00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,500

in the world with no buggies hahaha

: 1286

00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,866

so if a senior ops folks or the senior marketing folks

: 1287

00:53:30,866 --> 00:53:34,700

if they can get foundationally things running

: 1288

00:53:34,900 --> 00:53:36,900

so that the signals the problems

: 1289

00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:37,700

and opportunities

: 1290

00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:39,633

are being dealt with at the front line

: 1291

00:53:39,633 --> 00:53:41,966

cause the front line knows how to solve problems

: 1292

00:53:41,966 --> 00:53:44,166

collectively when it's slightly

: 1293

00:53:44,166 --> 00:53:45,233

when it's new or different

: 1294

00:53:45,233 --> 00:53:47,666

it goes outside of their sort of SOS

: 1295

00:53:48,033 --> 00:53:50,666

then they get solved in the best place

: 1296

00:53:50,966 --> 00:53:53,800

and then it freeze up that senior leadership team

: 1297

00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,666

to be looking around corners

: 1298

00:53:55,666 --> 00:53:58,300

and to be innovating and moving with the market

: 1299

00:53:58,466 --> 00:53:59,800

so it makes it very exciting

: 1300

00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,466

makes it an exciting place to work

: 1301

00:54:01,566 --> 00:54:03,900

oh we have a long way to go

: 1302

00:54:03,900 --> 00:54:07,233

I envision a day where people work only 38 to 40

: 1303

00:54:07,233 --> 00:54:11,266

hours a week and you don't need to burn people out

: 1304

00:54:11,700 --> 00:54:14,000

I'd like to see a day where leaders will know

: 1305

00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,433

they have the resources to do the strategic planning

: 1306

00:54:17,433 --> 00:54:19,800

when they're less busy what I got out of your book

: 1307

00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,566

I was so excited when I read it

: 1308

00:54:21,566 --> 00:54:24,900

is the focus on quality science principles

: 1309

00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,066

that had nothing to do with your personality style

: 1310

00:54:28,066 --> 00:54:30,666

it's basic being able to ask the right questions

: 1311

00:54:30,666 --> 00:54:33,900

and build decisions that everyone can agree on

: 1312

00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,366

that is still relatively a new concept

: 1313

00:54:37,366 --> 00:54:40,566

I think because of this we got to get it done quickly

: 1314

00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,866

but all that's happening is it's taking 10 times longer

: 1315

00:54:43,866 --> 00:54:44,966

to get anything done

: 1316

00:54:44,966 --> 00:54:47,166

and especially in large corporations

: 1317

00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:49,400

where there's a lot of bureaucracy

: 1318

00:54:49,566 --> 00:54:53,000

I don't think large corporations need to be so slow

: 1319

00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,333

but right now

: 1320

00:54:54,466 --> 00:54:57,100

that's the only way things are getting done

: 1321

00:54:57,300 --> 00:54:59,400

everything is funneled up to one or two people

: 1322

00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,066

at the top who are exhausted

: 1323

00:55:01,433 --> 00:55:04,600

decisions get revisited and we start all over again

: 1324

00:55:04,833 --> 00:55:07,066

that that was just a perfect summary

: 1325

00:55:07,366 --> 00:55:09,266

yeah you just described it all

: 1326

00:55:09,266 --> 00:55:12,733

that's that's what we're working at fixing exactly

: 1327

00:55:12,966 --> 00:55:15,033

yeah and in this model

: 1328

00:55:15,033 --> 00:55:15,566

hopefully

: 1329

00:55:15,566 --> 00:55:19,266

people can see how there's another way to do things

: 1330

00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:23,000

that doesn't require a grip on anyone's throat

: 1331

00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,633

it's just more

: 1332

00:55:25,633 --> 00:55:27,466

what would be the how would you summarize this

: 1333

00:55:27,466 --> 00:55:29,733

if you had to pick three words

: 1334

00:55:30,066 --> 00:55:32,033

that people could just hold in their brain

: 1335

00:55:32,033 --> 00:55:33,500

when they think about your book

: 1336

00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,800

built to think what would three words be

: 1337

00:55:41,233 --> 00:55:43,666

I can't do it in three words I have a sentence

: 1338

00:55:45,166 --> 00:55:47,033

I'll take a sentence maybe

: 1339

00:55:47,033 --> 00:55:49,433

so the sentence I would use is

: 1340

00:55:49,433 --> 00:55:51,800

create the environment where people can see a signal

: 1341

00:55:53,066 --> 00:55:54,600

they know how to respond

: 1342

00:55:55,566 --> 00:55:57,000

and then they can learn

: 1343

00:55:58,666 --> 00:56:00,866

if people want to be on the pre launch journey

: 1344

00:56:00,866 --> 00:56:02,400

if you're curious about how it go

: 1345

00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,066

you go about launching a book

: 1346

00:56:04,066 --> 00:56:07,800

you can go to built to think dot AI and you can sign up

: 1347

00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,733

and we have some pre materials

: 1348

00:56:10,866 --> 00:56:12,900

and everyone who signs up before the launch

: 1349

00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:17,133

will actually get a free companion workbook

: 1350

00:56:17,233 --> 00:56:18,900

the workbook comes out in October

: 1351

00:56:18,900 --> 00:56:20,800

it's under wraps right now

: 1352

00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:22,100

but it's gonna be phenomenal

: 1353

00:56:22,100 --> 00:56:23,833

and it's gonna be an actual workbook

: 1354

00:56:23,833 --> 00:56:26,866

that will help you as a leader or somebody you assign

: 1355

00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:28,566

bring these principles

: 1356

00:56:28,633 --> 00:56:31,300

agreements and tools into your organization

: 1357

00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,600

so you don't have to figure it out from the book

: 1358

00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,200

we're going to put the exercises

: 1359

00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,566

the models everything into the workbook

: 1360

00:56:37,566 --> 00:56:41,066

if you sign up early to be part of my pre launch party

: 1361

00:56:41,166 --> 00:56:42,366

then you will get the e

: 1362

00:56:42,366 --> 00:56:45,166

workbook before it's even published

: 1363

00:56:46,166 --> 00:56:49,166

that sounds fantastic I'll grab one of those myself

: 1364

00:56:49,766 --> 00:56:50,833

that's Liane Terrace

: 1365

00:56:50,833 --> 00:56:54,566

her book built to think comes out September 17th

: 1366

00:56:54,566 --> 00:56:57,033

and you can get more information at built to think

: 1367

00:56:57,033 --> 00:56:58,333

dot AI

: 1368

00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,700

I'm Adele Wong and this is all things human

: 1369

00:57:02,866 --> 00:57:04,066

see you next time

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