This week, Erin and Val sat down with local organizer hadley morrow to talk about their thoughts on protest safety, filing a complaint with the Office of Police Ombuds (OPO) and community organizing in Spokane.

If you witnessed law enforcement violence at protests in June and want to file an OPO complaint but don’t know where to start, you can email hadley at hello@hadley.consulting for help.

PLUS: On Tuesday, Aug. 19th at 5:30 PM, the Office of Police Ombuds Commission will be meeting in the City Council Chamber. Like City Council meetings, this is a public meeting with an open forum. Make your voices heard!

Further reading:

Where are the protesters’ phones?

Everything we know about the Spokane ICE protests

Hey guys, podcast producer Pascal here This week, Val Aaron and local

2

organizer slash facilitator Hadley Morrow

talked about protest safety, police

3

accountability, and how you can do both.

4

Also, there's an Office of Police Ombuds

Commission meeting on Tuesday, August

5

19th at 5:30 PM It's gonna be held in the

city council chamber at Spokane City Hall.

6

And like city council meetings,

o opioid commission meetings are

7

public and have an open forum.

8

Be sure to make your voices

heard and without further ado,

9

here's this week's episode.

10

Erin Sellers: Today we're

here with Hedley Morrow.

11

They're a Spokane organizer committee

member of our local NAACP and Head

12

Medler of Anarch Keeling Consulting.

13

And we're gonna talk about protest

safety, the Office of Police, ombuds

14

and Spokane Community Organized

Response Network with Hadley.

15

Thanks for coming.

16

Hadley.

17

So happy to be here.

18

Cool.

19

Just meddling.

20

We're doing some meddling

of our own with the board.

21

we're masked up today for COVID safety.

22

Mm-hmm.

23

And it just makes us sound a

little bit more muffled, so

24

we gotta bump that sound up.

25

Um.

26

Val.

27

Val: Yeah.

28

So yeah, I'll get started.

29

So Hadley, this week y'all had a,

kinda like a workshop, for people to

30

fill out Office of Police Ombudsman,

31

Erin Sellers: just Ombuds now.

32

Best see, they changed it.

33

Val: Ombuds.

34

I didn't even know that.

35

Thank you.

36

Erin Sellers: Yeah.

37

It's been a whole point of discourse.

38

Uh, the SP city council over.

39

Like gender neutral language, but

then also it's from like some sort of

40

like Scandinavian word or whatever.

41

So there's been like debate over like, did

you make the Scandinavian word meaningless

42

in your quest for quote unquote wokeness?

43

I think was a near a paraphrase

of one of the council members.

44

Val: I really do love word etymology.

45

It's amazing.

46

Erin Sellers: Sorry, that was a tangent.

47

Hadley: I appreciate that tangent.

48

Val: Yeah.

49

but also to backtrack a little bit,

so you, y'all had a workshop this week

50

for, filling out, basically police,

violence complaints for the office.

51

Of Ombuds Police Ombuds, the OPO.

52

The OPO, and those were in relation

to the protests back in June.

53

Yes.

54

so

55

Hadley: were you at both protests?

56

I was both on at the ICE protest on the

11th and the No Kings protest on the 14th.

57

Val: Yeah.

58

And, I was with Hadley

at the No Kings one.

59

We, ended up just kind of being near

each other because it kind of got scary.

60

so like, speaking of scary, I

guess, what prompted like, you

61

know, you organizing, workshop Yeah.

62

To like, get people to like

actually fill out complaint forms.

63

Thanks for asking.

64

Hadley: so I think, you know.

65

Probably thousands of people were out

on the streets across the two protests.

66

And I don't know about you, but my social

media feed was dominated for days mm-hmm.

67

With folks who had taken

video and uploaded it.

68

And, you know, like

months have gone by now.

69

And we know that the city asked the,

OPO and uh, Spokane Police Department

70

to do their own internal investigation

into their response on the 11th.

71

music: Mm-hmm.

72

Hadley: And the OPO is

responsible for overseeing that

73

process on a community level.

74

Mm-hmm.

75

So.

76

While, you know, a lot of people

I think were sharing mm-hmm.

77

Online, we became worried that

that wasn't translating to actual

78

complaints that will feed into

the internal investigation mm-hmm.

79

And give the ombudsman information

and data about the level of concern

80

that's coming from the community.

81

Erin Sellers: So there might be big

community feelings and evidence mm-hmm.

82

On social media.

83

But if that doesn't make its way back

to the OPO, they're not gonna include it

84

in an independent investigation report.

85

Hadley: Exactly.

86

Like the SPD is not looking at

people's Facebook as part of their

87

internal investigation into how their

behavior played out on that day.

88

at some point, you know, in maybe

like a few weeks after the, June 11th,

89

one of the city council members had

said at a meeting that there had only

90

been 11 OPO complaints filed within,

you know, the first couple weeks.

91

And honestly,

92

Erin Sellers: that's not that

different from like mm-hmm.

93

Any month's worth of OPO

94

Hadley: complaints.

95

Mm-hmm.

96

Yes.

97

Great point.

98

So we were concerned that,

yeah, that community.

99

outcry wasn't being

translated into mm-hmm.

100

The, the actual place

that it's gonna be usable.

101

and it's not the easiest process and I

think it can feel intimidating to some

102

folks who have never filed an official

complaint or, you know, even sat down

103

on a computer and typed up mm-hmm.

104

A sort of report like this.

105

And our goal was first to make sure

that the community had information

106

about how important this was and sort of

understand what the Ombudsman role is,

107

and then offer, you know, some advocates

who could really just sit with people

108

and help them with their complaints.

109

Talk through, I think a lot we

experienced at the clinic that we did

110

on Tuesday, some folks coming in who

were really still unprocessed mm-hmm.

111

And said, I know what I saw was

very upsetting and very wrong.

112

Mm-hmm.

113

But I don't really know where to start in

like, bringing that down into a complaint.

114

Mm-hmm.

115

So we were able to sit with folks and kind

of walk through their experience and help

116

them identify where there were specific,

you know, incidents of misconduct mm-hmm.

117

Or concern or abuse and violations.

118

And then name those and help them

craft the reports and get them in.

119

Val: What were some of those

like experiences that you were

120

hearing, being put in the report?

121

Hadley: Yeah.

122

one of the things that was startling

to me because I had been more inside

123

of the, the scene on June 11th mm-hmm.

124

Was a lot of people who had been pretty

far outside of the protest zone mm-hmm.

125

Who were trying to come in and

trying to see what was happening,

126

trying to assess situations.

127

And we had a woman who.

128

basically came and she was just

really trying to figure out like

129

what was happening at the protest.

130

Mm-hmm.

131

And she was asking police

for directions and was pretty

132

violently targeted and arrested.

133

She never even made it

into the protest zone.

134

oh gosh.

135

So I was surprised to hear that

there were, um, you know, sort of,

136

uh, what seems like disproportionate

actions happening pretty far

137

outside of the protest zone.

138

music: Mm-hmm.

139

Hadley: we, of course, you know, a lot

of us were seeing what was happening

140

kind of in, in the center of things.

141

Mm-hmm.

142

But there were a lot of folks who came

in who were really just more observers

143

who were on the outside, who thought that

they were in positions of safety and were

144

having tear gas fired or, you know, at

least some sort of canister fired at them.

145

one person came in with a, a video of

a officer that comes out with a pepper

146

ball gun who just seems to be spraying

pretty indiscriminately towards the group.

147

That is well, well, well

outside the sort of zone of

148

control that police had created,

149

Val: was that the like zone, the

like, curfew zone or whatever?

150

That you're referring to or just like

the kind of the general main zone?

151

Hadley: I think it sort

of the general main zone.

152

Okay.

153

I think they're, A a point

of clarity that I mm-hmm.

154

That we talked about and sort of included

in a report with one person was, you

155

know, we actually wanna understand.

156

Mm-hmm.

157

police did not make it easy for

folks to know if they were in a zone

158

where they were at risk of arrest.

159

Mm-hmm.

160

Or if they were safe, there were,

you know, people still have a

161

right to stay on the sidewalk.

162

Mm-hmm.

163

And of course when a dispersal order is

issued, you know, that sort of changes.

164

But there is still, my, my

understanding, my belief was that

165

there was sort of a zone mm-hmm.

166

In which that dispersal was, sort

of ordered and people outside of

167

it could have some level of safety.

168

Mm-hmm.

169

I realize now, I don't know

if that's true, like, I'm not

170

actually sure how that works.

171

Yeah.

172

So we were able to put, you know, in a

complaint that that's sort of an inquiry,

173

like we wanna understand from SPD mm-hmm.

174

How those decisions are made mm-hmm.

175

So that people, you know,

protesters are safer mm-hmm.

176

When there are more observers.

177

Yeah.

178

Uh, but.

179

If we are also targeting people who

thought that they were safe and weren't

180

gonna get arrested, it's gonna reduce

the people who feel safe to come

181

out and support us in the streets.

182

Erin Sellers: Yeah.

183

Yeah.

184

I know, like being a reporter on

the streets on June 11th, one of

185

the things that we found really

confusing as press was that there

186

was no police information officer.

187

Mm-hmm.

188

On, so it's like, it's loud.

189

People are shouting things on a megaphone.

190

At one point there was like

conflicting information given within

191

30 seconds on the cop megaphone, and

we're like right up near the front.

192

So if we can't understand what the rules

are, how are the people who are like way

193

in the back gonna know what the rules are?

194

Mm-hmm.

195

So we're like, well, we'll just call the.

196

Public inf like the police information

officer on call, they have like an

197

on-call number and we'll just like sit

over here and try to like hear mm-hmm.

198

Get information on like what's

the boundaries of the curfew zone.

199

Um, if you, which exits

are you supposed to take?

200

Like where is it safe for

people to leave through?

201

'cause some exits are closed down by cops.

202

Some you might risk arrest

if you go down that way.

203

Mm-hmm.

204

So we were trying to get all of

this information and there was just

205

no police, information officer.

206

Mm-hmm.

207

I mean, I've heard call

208

Val: like some stories of people

who were trying to leave the

209

protest getting arrested Yeah.

210

While they were leaving and

they were like, I'm just trying

211

to leave like you told me to.

212

Yeah.

213

Um,

214

Erin Sellers: like a lot of the

protestors in that kind of north

215

side, almost all of the exits.

216

Got closed off, or I think the, what

the colloquial term is like kettles.

217

Mm-hmm.

218

Right.

219

And, people thought that

Sarah Dixie got arrested.

220

Mm-hmm.

221

But what really happened was that she was

like, I'm trying to leave, let me leave.

222

Mm-hmm.

223

I can't leave, but my bike is over there.

224

Mm-hmm.

225

And a cop had like, walked her to her

bike and then walked her outside mm-hmm.

226

Of the periphery, like hands

on her shoulders, like,

227

music: yeah.

228

Erin Sellers: And not

everybody had that option.

229

Like, there were people that asked

to leave and were not let out.

230

Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent.

231

Mm-hmm.

232

But I think like the communication mm-hmm.

233

questions when it gets really loud and

chaotic and there's, you know, multiple

234

jurisdictions of law enforcement.

235

Mm-hmm.

236

Which I guess I'm wondering

when you guys are filling out

237

the complaints, how do you,

238

Draw the line between

like county officers.

239

Mm-hmm.

240

Excellent question.

241

And city officers.

242

Yeah, because I feel like a

lot of people say like the cops

243

colloquially and even though that

means like Spokane police officers.

244

Yeah.

245

Rather than like the sheriffs.

246

Val: Mm-hmm.

247

And does it also include

like any federal officers,

248

Hadley: all great questions.

249

Mm-hmm.

250

So.

251

We have been really trying to sort

of broaden the language to say law

252

enforcement more, to really make it

clear that okay, we're dealing with

253

a breadth of different departments.

254

Mm-hmm.

255

And also that allows us to get specific

about the tactics that we're seeing

256

each of these sort of three units used.

257

When you look at sort of federal

officers, SPD and Spokane County Sheriffs

258

music: mm-hmm.

259

Hadley: when it comes to filing

complaints, like, I'm gonna be

260

real, it's not a perfect process.

261

Mm-hmm.

262

There is no real lever of community

oversight that, you know, allows

263

influence over these investigations.

264

so it's not, it's like not the perfect

process, but I really believe we need to

265

pull every, every single lever we can.

266

And we don't wanna let SPD have

the only narrative for mm-hmm.

267

How.

268

June 11th went down.

269

If we don't offer our own footage

and our own testimony, then they just

270

get to write the story off of the

body cams and whatever folks say.

271

so there's sort of this balance that

we're playing of also wanting to make

272

sure we don't put anyone in a position

where they might be sharing something that

273

could be used against them in the future.

274

Mm-hmm.

275

or putting someone else at risk by

sharing a video that they didn't screen

276

properly because, you know, maybe

someone else is in it who shouldn't

277

have been filmed or things like that.

278

When it comes to Spokane

County Sheriff's Office.

279

Mm-hmm.

280

They don't have an ombuds.

281

They have an internal review board.

282

I hope the, like listeners

can sense my air quotes.

283

The air quotes.

284

That is, I'm assuming, just made up

of some guys who were in the sheriff

285

department who received complaints

that come from A PDF form that

286

probably was last updated in 1989.

287

and would be very cumbersome to use

and requires a lot of identifying

288

information that no one I think

would feel necessarily comfortable.

289

Mm-hmm.

290

Just handing over to the sheriff.

291

so we feel there's a little bit

of a black hole when it comes,

292

the ability to complain there.

293

We, I've like had some debates

with some of our other organizers

294

about how to approach that.

295

Should we be encouraging people to

do Spokane Sheriff's complaints?

296

I think that people who are in

a position of privilege mm-hmm.

297

Who aren't, you know, who maybe

were operating in a way that.

298

They didn't, you know, certainly

we don't want anyone who behaved

299

aggressively at all towards the sheriff.

300

Mm-hmm.

301

Because we've been hearing him say, I

mean, he said in the inlander that he

302

wants to go after everybody who mm-hmm.

303

You know, threw a canister

and things like that.

304

So we're not, we're not trying to mm-hmm.

305

put anyone at risk.

306

But I'm certainly be curious to see

people who came down and were in

307

a position of privilege to mm-hmm.

308

Sort of say and what they saw.

309

Mm-hmm.

310

Try to raise a ruckus to let the

sheriff know we're not just gonna

311

let people, you know, we're not just,

we don't, we're not, not watching.

312

music: Mm-hmm.

313

Hadley: and we've also, you know,

there's strategy is like CC the

314

county commissioners mm-hmm.

315

When you send those complaints, so at

least they're not going into a total void.

316

music: Mm-hmm.

317

Hadley: Right.

318

We, um, did some in like asking,

and there's no process by which the

319

complaints for the sheriff go anywhere.

320

There's nowhere where they're

reported, there's no, there's nothing.

321

Um, the county commissioners have

obviously some control over their budget.

322

Mm-hmm.

323

But there's no.

324

There's no accountability.

325

There's no authority.

326

There's no, they're not

the boss of the sheriff.

327

No.

328

So we take that a lot more delicately.

329

music: Mm-hmm.

330

Hadley: So a lot of folks did come

in with video or footage where

331

like we can't actually tell as

a sheriff is at SPD sometimes.

332

Mm-hmm.

333

Or there's a combination of actors.

334

Honestly, we've been encouraging

folks that if they weren't sure, and

335

even if it was the sheriff, that it's

okay to submit OPO complaints mm-hmm.

336

Because we're hoping it

creates a pressure mm-hmm.

337

That sort of says, Hey, SPD, the

behavior of the sheriff is influencing.

338

Mm-hmm.

339

Whether or not your people

feel safe with you showing up

340

to protests, it's influencing.

341

Mm-hmm.

342

Whether or not we view you.

343

You know, as like, it's,

it's influencing overall.

344

Mm-hmm.

345

Like their, their reputation.

346

Yeah.

347

So we're kind of hoping that if we raise

a bit of a ruckus over here mm-hmm.

348

That, you know, actors within

the city might create some

349

more pressure for some more

accountability between those channels.

350

I think a lot of us, you know,

there's some, a group of organizers

351

who released a community letter.

352

Mm-hmm.

353

And one of the demands in that was,

you know, we really want clarity

354

around these interagency operations.

355

Mm-hmm.

356

currently we, you know, wanna

see that SPD has the authority if

357

there's actions in the city limits.

358

Mm-hmm.

359

Because we think we were all

made less safe by the sort of

360

posturing and lack of mm-hmm.

361

Communication and under, you know,

sort of understanding between the

362

different agencies on June 11th.

363

Val: Yeah.

364

Erin Sellers: And, and I mean,

even on June 14th mm-hmm.

365

There was some like tension and

confusion over that because mm-hmm.

366

Like I talked to a couple of city council

members who were told by SPD that the

367

sheriffs would not be like, they would

be stationed, you know, outside of pride.

368

Mm-hmm.

369

Just like back up to call

in, not gonna be patrolling.

370

music: Mm-hmm.

371

Erin Sellers: And then

that was just not the case.

372

So the question is like, is

SPD not being honest mm-hmm.

373

With the council, is the county not being

honest with SPD who has jurisdiction

374

where, 'cause the city is in the county.

375

Mm-hmm.

376

So then it just becomes like a

huge question of who has mm-hmm.

377

Power where I think sometimes the

cops, SPD feels like they get.

378

Undo like pressure or anger that

they feel should be directed

379

at the sheriffs instead.

380

And I think the contours of that,

like, well, no, we're holding you

381

accountable for who you work with.

382

Mm-hmm.

383

And who you call in for backup is

an interesting conversation to have.

384

Hadley: And if it's the only place

where people can do any sort of

385

level of slightly secure complaining,

it's gonna be the one that we use.

386

Like, you know, the first listing

year is gonna be the one that gets

387

all of the, you know, the venting.

388

So

389

Erin Sellers: it's like a

hard fought citizen, right?

390

Mm-hmm.

391

Like the Office of Police Ombuds was

something that voters really pushed

392

for an independent oversight body.

393

And it passed with like 70% of the

vote, which is kind of crazy for

394

a ballot initiative in Spokane.

395

yeah.

396

Val: so me and Luke interviewed

the police chief, um, early July,

397

I think about like all of this.

398

And that was like a big chunk

of our questions of like.

399

You know, how do you hold

the sheriffs accountable?

400

Like, how does the police chief

hold the sheriffs accountable?

401

Mm-hmm.

402

and like, how do those

interagency things work?

403

And it was really interesting.

404

And then like, one, one thing that

I pressed him on was, because Aaron

405

Sellers right here, was, shoved by one

of the federal officers at the, at the

406

protest while they were covering it.

407

Yeah.

408

And, they were out of the way and like

labeled as press and everything, and they

409

were still, you know, violently shoved.

410

And I asked the police chief like, what,

what's the recourse for my reporter?

411

Like, are my reporters safe

covering protests in your city?

412

And, you know, he.

413

You can listen to the interview.

414

It's one of our last episodes.

415

and, but it was interesting and,

where I kind of got like kind of an,

416

it was an answer, but it was like as

good as he could probably get, but

417

it was still kind of a non-answer.

418

and then I followed up with like,

so are federal officers just able

419

to come into your jurisdiction

and commit crimes or what?

420

You know?

421

Yeah.

422

And then he was like, oh no, you,

you should fill out an OPO complaint.

423

and then the sheriff is

handling all the complaints.

424

related to that incident is what he

said, which is probably an interest,

425

an important thing when we are talking

about these OPO clinics because he

426

said, I don't know if like all the OPO

complaints also go to the sheriff, but

427

he did say that all of the like internal

review stuff does is going to the

428

sheriff because they were like, because

they're like the agency that's like.

429

I guess most out of like, I don't know.

430

They have like an agreement.

431

They have a mutual aid agreement.

432

Yeah.

433

Yeah.

434

but like, it's not like the police,

Spokane Police Department is not

435

investigating those complaints.

436

It's the sheriff.

437

Erin Sellers: There's also a weird

power dynamic there though, because

438

like the sheriff turned around and

was talking to, the Center Square.

439

Mm-hmm.

440

And gave a quote about like, I had the

National Guard, like on the phone mm-hmm.

441

Ready to call in if this didn't

go the way we wanted it to.

442

Mm-hmm.

443

So it's very weird when SPD is

technically in charge of a response.

444

Mm-hmm.

445

But then you've got this like.

446

Yeah.

447

The language I wanna use is like,

devil on your shoulder, but that's

448

not exactly this other dog barking.

449

That's like, yeah.

450

Mm-hmm.

451

If you don't handle it in the way I

want, like we are going to, mm-hmm.

452

We have the National Guard on speed

dial and we can change the tenor

453

of this conversation immediately

454

Hadley: and thinking about the series

of events between June 11th and

455

Pride, which then also is No Kings.

456

Mm-hmm.

457

There, you know, organizers were.

458

Warned that mm-hmm.

459

The, that the sheriff was calling

and saying he wanted National Guard.

460

Mm-hmm.

461

He wanted a full tactical presence

at Pride, you know, to show

462

this community that, that he

was gonna be tough on whatever.

463

but fortunately, you

know, that did not happen.

464

Mm-hmm.

465

I think we, you know, my experience

on the night of the 14th mm-hmm.

466

When it sort of moved into

police getting involved

467

music: mm-hmm.

468

Hadley: was being, was very aware that

if the sheriff showed up, it felt like it

469

would escalate the situation immediately.

470

music: Yeah.

471

Hadley: And even I was surprised by

how much the commu, the broad community

472

like crowd there seemed to understand

the different risk When the sheriff

473

arrived, and even on the 14th, you

know, the sheriff stayed back for

474

most of the early evening, was sort

of concentrated around the courthouse.

475

And after the curf, after

the dispersal order mm-hmm.

476

Was called, you know, showed

up very quick and there were.

477

Officers.

478

Mm-hmm.

479

There were sheriff's officers armed

with weapons and tactical gear.

480

Again, you know, there was, yeah.

481

I don't, I'm not, I need to, I guess,

get familiar on my guns, which is

482

not a thing I wanted to do, but Yeah.

483

you know, like the big orange

like shotgun looking thing mm-hmm.

484

That I'm assuming shoot was rubber

bullets or bean bags, you know?

485

Mm-hmm.

486

Like they were being, they were lining

up in a way that was making it clear.

487

Mm-hmm.

488

Like it was intimidation.

489

music: Yeah.

490

Hadley: And the sad thing for me that

night was that there was no, it was

491

really a moment of like whose streets?

492

Our streets on all sides.

493

And there was not clarity around

like what the purpose was.

494

Mm-hmm.

495

And I deeply believe, and as it turned

out that once SPD and the sheriff turned

496

around and left, everybody studied.

497

Oh yeah.

498

There was nothing left to shout about.

499

There's nothing on the 14th, you know?

500

Val: Yeah.

501

Like, I watched that happen.

502

Like I was on the phone with Luke and I

was like, Luke, like I'm a little scared,

503

like there's shooting the pepper balls.

504

Like I.

505

You know, put my goggles on.

506

I had our producer Pascal there

with me who's like very young and

507

I'm like trying to keep them safe.

508

But then we kept getting separated.

509

I was with you Hadley, and

510

Hadley: yeah, I would just give Val credit

who I got the worst cramp of my life.

511

I've never had this happen.

512

I fell, I was running and I fell over

so quickly and was so paralyzed in pain

513

that somebody thought I had been shot.

514

Yeah.

515

And I had to be like, no, I'm fine.

516

Keep going.

517

Because somebody else

actually was wounded.

518

Mm-hmm.

519

And we were trying to get to someone

who was shot by a rubber bullet mm-hmm.

520

And was bleeding and

needed medical attention.

521

Mm-hmm.

522

Um, which is a good connection to scorn.

523

'cause that's part of why we decided

we needed more street medics.

524

Okay.

525

but ultimately, you know, I think there

is that question around like that.

526

That positioning and that posturing

527

music: mm-hmm.

528

Hadley: Is something the

community is very aware of.

529

Mm-hmm.

530

And very reactive to, and I would hope

that SPD is using this awareness to like,

531

put pressure on the fact that they will

be less able to do their jobs in the city.

532

Mm-hmm.

533

If the sheriff, if there's

not a relationship of mm-hmm.

534

Sort of authority and, and

safety with the sheriff.

535

Erin Sellers: Yeah.

536

So you got a bunch of

reports filed earlier mm-hmm.

537

This week to OPO.

538

how many more of these clinics

do you have left and what is

539

it kind of building up to?

540

Hadley: Yeah, so we, the OPO

has a meeting on August 19th.

541

It's Tuesday, it's at 5:30

PM at City Council Chambers.

542

This is a open meeting, very

similar to City Council.

543

There's like a public comment period,

so you can come in and sign up.

544

We really wanna make that

meeting loud, like we wanna

545

see as many people as possible.

546

And the chamber obviously not loud.

547

You gotta.

548

Be quiet in the chambers, but, you

know, we like, want as many people

549

to give public comment and we really

want some visibility for the OPO

550

to see, we need you to be watching

this investigation very closely.

551

Mm-hmm.

552

And the community, you know, may

not have a lot of time for reports.

553

Mm-hmm.

554

But we have a lot of fear and a

lot of complaints to talk about.

555

music: Mm-hmm.

556

Hadley: so part of it has been

helping people, you know, get

557

their sort of testimony and

feel comfortable giving comment.

558

music: Mm-hmm.

559

And

560

Hadley: really we're trying to push

people to, to show up to that meeting.

561

Mm-hmm.

562

Just to be clear, it's sort of a, it's a,

it's a thing that would be great to have,

563

voices at that's not a real deadline.

564

Mm-hmm.

565

If you haven't gotten an OPO complaint,

you have, I think up to two years or

566

something to complain about, issues.

567

So.

568

We, it's more important

to get it in eventually.

569

Mm-hmm.

570

Even if you can't get it in by the 19th.

571

But the goal was sort of to make sure that

by the time they got to that meeting they

572

saw no, it's gonna be a lot more mm-hmm.

573

Than 11th complaints.

574

at this exact moment we have

wrapped up most of our clinics.

575

Mm-hmm.

576

But we do have a bunch of volunteers

through Scorn who are able to still help

577

people and we'll hop on Zoom or the phone.

578

Nice.

579

and again, you know, can

meet with people if need be.

580

Mm-hmm.

581

To kind of walk through things with folks.

582

Cool.

583

so I'm like happy to,

584

Erin Sellers: if somebody wanted

to get that kind of help, how

585

would they reach out to you?

586

Hadley: Yeah, that's a great question.

587

probably the easiest way right now

is to email me 'cause I'm kind of

588

directing people towards support.

589

you can find my email at

hello at Hadley, H-A-D-L-E-Y.

590

Dot Consulting, C-O-N-S-U-L-T-I-N-G.

591

There's no.com

592

or anything and that's very confusing,

but you're allowed to do that now.

593

Val: Okay.

594

We did, we did Range

Media dot Gay First Pride.

595

So

596

Hadley: see I missed an opportunity there.

597

Uh, but hello@hadley.consulting

598

and I'm happy to connect you with

some of our awesome scorn volunteers.

599

SCORN stands for Spokane Community

Organized Response Network.

600

Mm-hmm.

601

And we kind of mobilized actually.

602

After, like directly

after June 14th and 11th.

603

Mm-hmm.

604

Um, seeing that across some of

the folks who often volunteer

605

as peacekeepers mm-hmm.

606

Through PJ ls awesome peacekeeping

program and folks who, um, you know,

607

sort of just show up as you know, a lot

of the mutual aid organizations mm-hmm.

608

Were there on the 14th

handing out water and things.

609

Mm-hmm.

610

We ran across some awesome street

medic who had never met before mm-hmm.

611

Who gave me some electrolytes

and was like, really awesome.

612

Um, so we, but we were like, oh,

if, if this is gonna be the level

613

of response, it's really important

that we keep our community safe.

614

Mm-hmm.

615

A strategy that we're really called

towards right now is thinking about

616

how we can mobilize and organize

our protests so well and so mm-hmm.

617

Tactically safe that we don't actually

need, they can't justify Yeah.

618

A police presence to show up If

we can replace some of the things

619

like, like medics, like, you know,

having peacekeepers to mm-hmm.

620

Help folks, you know, make sure they

obey We are, are, are choiceful about

621

when we obey and disobey mm-hmm.

622

Traffic laws you.

623

Some of these things are

gonna make it more likely.

624

Mm-hmm.

625

That folk, that we don't actually

have to have police at protests.

626

There are certain times, there are

certain what we, they call bright

627

lines that if they get crossed mm-hmm.

628

They have to be there.

629

If we're gonna march in streets,

that might, intersect with hospital

630

corridors like division and brown or

two streets that have to be accessible

631

to make sure ambulances get there.

632

No protestor wants to stop an ambulance

from getting the hospital, I hope.

633

and so we wouldn't wanna do that,

but, you know, on the 14th mm-hmm.

634

There were some awesome

inspired young folks who mm-hmm.

635

Started, you know, taking to the

street and I love that energy, but

636

not all of them maybe knew mm-hmm.

637

That if they started to march

towards those streets, police

638

were gonna intercept them.

639

Okay.

640

And that was perceived very

quickly as a, you know Yeah.

641

A, a violation or a front, which helped,

like, raised the tension in the situation.

642

Yeah.

643

So it's just, you know, some of,

some of the US organizers who have

644

done this a long time have the

privilege of some of this information.

645

Mm-hmm.

646

And it's, I really wanna make sure

that we are, you know, sharing that

647

and training each other mm-hmm.

648

So that we can all keep each other safe.

649

so Scorin has a street medic.

650

That like training that

we're working on right now.

651

Okay.

652

That we've gotten two sessions through.

653

music: Nice.

654

Hadley: that we're just, getting

some, if you do it, you come first

655

aid certified and everything.

656

Ooh.

657

and hope, you know, we're trying

to up the percentage of people

658

who are out in our protest mm-hmm.

659

Who can help with things, you

know, heat, stroke, uh mm-hmm.

660

Like minor wounds,

sprained ankles, you know.

661

Mm-hmm.

662

Wounded bones, things like that.

663

because another thing we learned

unfortunately is that when these

664

big protests happen mm-hmm.

665

When there's a police, zone of

control like this, EMTs and fire

666

department and folks will not come in.

667

Oh.

668

so in a sense, people, if they're

seriously injured, are on their

669

own and it doesn't feel like SPD or

sheriffs were taking accountability

670

in those moments to look at people

who are hurt and try to get them aid.

671

music: Mm-hmm.

672

Hadley: so we really realized, oh,

that's gonna actually be on us.

673

Yeah.

674

so that's part of the motivation

to try to get more street medics.

675

Erin Sellers: Cool.

676

We're gonna come back to mm-hmm.

677

Scorn and protest safety.

678

Mm-hmm.

679

Right after we take quick break.

680

And what does Scorn do?

681

Hadley: honestly, we're pretty

new, but we have kind of been

682

serving to help mobilize mm-hmm.

683

Across a lot of the different

mutual aid networks.

684

Gosh.

685

Spokane is so, like we have

so much mutual aid mm-hmm.

686

And so many people who are just rolling

up their sleeves and doing good things.

687

Mm-hmm.

688

And I love that.

689

And in this moment we kind

of wanna get tactical.

690

Mm-hmm.

691

Like, we wanna make sure that

we're supporting those folks with a

692

really solid set of skills mm-hmm.

693

That help keep all of the community safer.

694

So we're thinking about

things like street medics.

695

Mm-hmm.

696

We're thinking about things

like sort of community safety.

697

A lot of us are peacekeepers with PA

Ls and so we're, you know, thinking

698

about how to continue to evolve that

work to make sure that the community

699

can sort of protect protest zones,

and look out for areas of risk.

700

and we are sort of starting to get,

you know, like socialized across

701

all the other mutual aid networks.

702

We love mass.

703

Um, cool.

704

Spokane has been a little, I, I'm a

organizer for Cool Spokane as well.

705

We've been a little tired, but we're still

around and we're excited to be sort of

706

supporting all these other efforts too.

707

Erin Sellers: Cool.

708

You know, Hadley, we were talking

about this before we jumped on.

709

One thing I was really struck by was

listening to Val's narrative of what it

710

was like to cover the June 14th protests.

711

'cause I was there on June 11th.

712

Mm-hmm.

713

But not June 14th.

714

And Val talked a lot about like,

the kind of chaos of the protest.

715

Mm-hmm.

716

There was no real, like,

centralized mm-hmm.

717

Leader or point of information by the,

you know, the time in the evening when

718

there was an enhanced police response.

719

Mm-hmm.

720

And your kind of role in trying to

facilitate some community safety there.

721

music: Mm-hmm.

722

Erin Sellers: So I guess I was curious if

you could tell us a little bit more about.

723

What goes into being safe at a protest.

724

Mm-hmm.

725

What kind of considerations

you're thinking about, what

726

it was like on June 14th?

727

Hadley: Yeah, absolutely.

728

And maybe like a little framing

of my role in protests often.

729

Mm-hmm.

730

I, um, very commonly volunteer

to be police liaison.

731

music: Mm-hmm.

732

Hadley: The goal of the police

liaison is to reduce the number of

733

opportunities there are for police

to interact with the protest.

734

Mm-hmm.

735

You're trying to make sure that police

liaison is handling the point of contact.

736

If anything does happen where we

do need police response, it's that

737

person's job to coordinate that.

738

Mm-hmm.

739

So we can keep to the line of

we're all safer when we don't

740

engage with police at protest.

741

Mm-hmm.

742

Period.

743

so often I play this role of sort

of like this middle space mm-hmm.

744

in trying to recognize,

you know, like that.

745

When police are at protests,

we are all actually at risk.

746

Mm-hmm.

747

Like it does increase the

likelihood that violence will occur.

748

Mm-hmm.

749

And we should navigate that skillfully.

750

Mm-hmm.

751

and know when we need, when it's

the right time to cross the line.

752

So I think in my experience on the

14th, I was deeply questioning mm-hmm.

753

Sort of when it, when it

was the right time mm-hmm.

754

And what the purpose was for some folks

who felt like crossing that line mm-hmm.

755

And moving into territory where, you

know, police were issuing dispersals,

756

um, you know, asking people to get back

on the sidewalk and things like that.

757

Mm-hmm.

758

And I wanna actually name like.

759

Let's just stop for a moment and

remember that like at one moment

760

I was standing on the middle of

them in Monroe Street Bridge.

761

Yeah.

762

Full of so many people.

763

Mm-hmm.

764

Looking to the west or the east

to see the post street bridge.

765

Mm-hmm.

766

Full of people knowing that we

had a whole entire crowd around

767

that block and that was beautiful.

768

I mean, really, truly beautiful.

769

And I love that there was spontaneous

energy to say, no, we need to keep going.

770

And I totally, I feel all together

as a community, as institutions, we

771

are going have to get more skilled

at holding the rage and the outrage.

772

Mm-hmm.

773

And the feeling of this community and

how that looks like when it spills over.

774

And I don't think anyone was prepared

to, to hold that on the 14th.

775

I've done a whole lot of reflecting.

776

Mm-hmm.

777

Um, to be clear, the night of the 14th,

I was not serving as a police liaison.

778

Mm-hmm.

779

Or a peacekeeper in any official

role really, after the No Kings

780

Rally kind of, um, air quotes ended.

781

Mm-hmm.

782

Like speakers stopped, you know,

people just sort of organically

783

started marching and moving.

784

music: Mm-hmm.

785

Hadley: At that point, a number of

people who were skilled as peacekeepers

786

were like, we really want, we just

really wanna keep people safe.

787

And we made a commitment to

kind of just running around.

788

Uh, I would say I.

789

Deescalated a lot of situations of

Yeah, I saw that of folks, engaging

790

with police's police in ways that I

worried would make everybody less safe.

791

Mm-hmm.

792

Like the second one person

starts getting arrested.

793

Mm-hmm.

794

Everybody starts to become at risk.

795

music: Mm-hmm.

796

Hadley: and like once that

first arrest happens mm-hmm.

797

And like opens the door.

798

Yeah.

799

And I realized also that like, you

know, I, Val got to see me like

800

frantically running and the OPO was

like, we watched all these videos and

801

I could hear myself screaming in the

background constantly, like, assess your

802

safety, give somebody your cell phone.

803

Like, we can't let the

feds take our cell phones.

804

because I think a lot of folks

were there in a moment of mm-hmm.

805

Of feeling and they didn't.

806

and I don't know if that was mm-hmm.

807

Stewarded into like, what is the ending?

808

So since that I've reflected a lot

on like what people can think about

809

when they're going into a protest

810

music: mm-hmm.

811

Hadley: As far as assessing

whether or not they wanna be

812

there, first of all, and how to.

813

Each other safe, like

ourselves and each other safe.

814

And I've kind of broken down

some three rules in my mind.

815

And the first really is

you gotta know the goal.

816

Mm-hmm.

817

Like, I'm gonna, I'll, the three

rules are know your goal, know

818

your role, and know when to go.

819

It almost rhymes all the way.

820

Erin Sellers: Very catchy.

821

Hadley: Uh, I tried thought a lot

about this, so let's talk about goals.

822

Mm-hmm.

823

It's really important that you know

why the protest is being organized,

824

what it's hoping to accomplish.

825

Mm-hmm.

826

It's fully okay if the only thing that

it's trying to accomplish is solidarity.

827

Mm-hmm.

828

Is raising awareness is a

little moment of rah rah.

829

Like these are all acceptable goals.

830

Mm-hmm.

831

It's also a very acceptable goal if it

is to intentionally break the law mm-hmm.

832

In order to commit civil disobedience.

833

Mm-hmm.

834

in order to do something that

we believe is just, there's, so

835

there's a big spectrum mm-hmm.

836

Of what your goal can be.

837

And it's possible that you can have

your own goal that lives inside of

838

the bigger goal, but if you are there

and you don't know why the people

839

around you are there, you are at risk.

840

It's really important also to

have a goal so you can know

841

whether or not you succeeded.

842

Mm-hmm.

843

It's hard to know when you can go

home if you haven't set a finish line.

844

music: Yeah.

845

Hadley: And I think if, you know,

the goal maybe was just like.

846

To be in community or catharsis.

847

Mm-hmm.

848

Or to let out some rage or to be visible.

849

We need to think about, you know, those

aren't things that have solutions.

850

Mm-hmm.

851

So we need to think about

how we end that, you know, in

852

protests, often in organizers.

853

So thinking about how we

end a rally with mm-hmm.

854

A song or a chant or something

that makes it really clear, okay.

855

Like, now it's time to go

be in community, go home.

856

Mm-hmm.

857

Uh, and I feel like that was part

of the steps that kind of got missed

858

Val: on the 14th.

859

And, well, real quick, like, you know,

one thing that we were noticing, um,

860

you know, at a difference between

the June 11th and the June 14th

861

protest was that the June 11th protest

had a pretty clear goal of Yep.

862

Stopping the ice from taking stop

863

Erin Sellers: these buses from leaving

with immigrants that have been detained.

864

Val: Mm-hmm.

865

Yeah.

866

And on June 14th, it was like the

No Kings rally was like kind of

867

that rah rah goal, and then that

ended and then the like break off.

868

Protest of that, that was like more

spontaneous, didn't really have a goal.

869

Hadley: Yeah.

870

Val: And, and I remember when I first

walked up to you and Paul Dillon, you

871

and Paul Dillon, uh, council member,

council member, Paul Dylan were talking

872

to police and trying to like, kind of

negotiate between police and protestors,

873

and the protestors did not wanna leave.

874

And, and Paul was like,

there's no leader here.

875

Like, there, there's no goal.

876

And, and somebody else who's like

a more experienced organizer who I

877

like stopped and talked to right.

878

Bef right when I got there, they were

like, we don't know why they're here.

879

You know?

880

And we're kind of just sticking to the

side because this could get really hairy.

881

So yeah, like that goal

thing is really important.

882

Hadley: And I don't wanna undervalue that,

like claiming a right to our streets.

883

Mm-hmm.

884

After a really horrible people

witness so much violence on the 11th,

885

abso, that deserves to be validated.

886

Mm-hmm.

887

But we have to measure it with safety.

888

Mm-hmm.

889

We have to measure it

against the long haul.

890

This is a long fight.

891

Mm-hmm.

892

And I worry that some

folks sort of threw away.

893

I hate to No, I, I retract that.

894

I don't like how that came outta my

mouth because like, it's all valuable.

895

But I, you know, your

first protest, arrest.

896

Is a valuable thing.

897

Mm-hmm.

898

And it gets a lot harder to get

arrested after you've done it once.

899

It's a lot riskier.

900

Yeah.

901

So once we get to that space of escalation

where there's a risk of violence mm-hmm.

902

I want everyone to be

thinking very, very carefully.

903

Mm-hmm.

904

And I felt a sadness that I think

some people escalated the situation.

905

The, the overall rea and, and

like, let's still blame fascism.

906

Mm-hmm.

907

I'm not actually blaming the protesters.

908

Like I'm blaming the fact that like,

this is an obvious reaction mm-hmm.

909

To fascism.

910

music: Mm-hmm.

911

Hadley: Uh, you know, and how that

was displayed by our police too.

912

Mm-hmm.

913

Like people had every right to

not trust and be rageful mm-hmm.

914

That they were, you know,

dominating the streets that night.

915

Um, and also

916

Erin Sellers: thinking

917

Hadley: strategically about

918

Erin Sellers: how do we make this last?

919

Because, because I

920

Hadley: observed many of the people who

got arrested as being younger folks.

921

Mm-hmm.

922

People who, not, not that like I

know all the protesters, but people

923

I haven't seen before and became

worried like, are you connected?

924

Do you have resources?

925

Mm-hmm.

926

Do you have people who

can help you through this?

927

And then we spent the night, you know,

thanks to the folks who have worked at the

928

bail fund and folks from Scar took it upon

themselves to go out and help the folks

929

who had been arrested on the 14th as well,

even though frankly, like we weren't.

930

You know, that those organizations

weren't necessarily connected.

931

Mm-hmm.

932

so it was a

933

Val: little, I, I was

surprised, but not surprised.

934

You know, I was like, oh,

like they still help them.

935

That's really nice.

936

Hadley: And we, like, I don't want a

side effect of protests to be feeding

937

the Carceral system in Spokane.

938

Mm-hmm.

939

Let's remember we have a

local battle here mm-hmm.

940

Where there's county commissioners

that would love to create a super

941

mega jail like here, and we don't

wanna give them more reasons.

942

Mm-hmm.

943

So it's all about sort of

measuring that context.

944

Mm-hmm.

945

And I think to being able to take

a moment to pause and assess Okay.

946

Like what, what is this

actually trying to accomplish?

947

Mm-hmm.

948

And do I think what we're

doing is gonna get us there?

949

Mm-hmm.

950

Because if not, maybe I need

to step back a little bit.

951

Mm-hmm.

952

Or just move a little bit

farther away from the police.

953

Mm-hmm.

954

So I can assess what I really want.

955

Mm-hmm.

956

And that kind of connects to a second.

957

Mm-hmm.

958

Which is what's your role?

959

Mm-hmm.

960

Like this is where you are placing

your own goal inside of where you are.

961

I think June 11th is a great sort

of example to walk through on where,

962

because there was a clear goal.

963

music: Mm-hmm.

964

Hadley: Do not leave until they release.

965

Mm-hmm.

966

The, the boys, uh.

967

Because there was a clear goal

people could organize mm-hmm.

968

Around what their role would be.

969

Mm-hmm.

970

There was a group of people who said,

I'm committing myself to risking arrest.

971

Mm-hmm.

972

I'm committing myself

to civil disobedience.

973

And they were able to do the things

to get prepared, not all of them.

974

Mm-hmm.

975

Well, you know, to make sure they didn't

have their phones, to make sure they

976

had bail prepared to make sure, sure.

977

People were watching their pets and kids.

978

Mm-hmm.

979

You know, that is skilled.

980

Uh, that's, that's, mm-hmm.

981

That's reducing the risk of state, state

violence for people is really what it is.

982

And then you can move to,

like, think about moving away

983

your levels of risk there.

984

Mm-hmm.

985

There were folks who were

like, I'm gonna be an observer.

986

I'm gonna stay right here.

987

Mm-hmm.

988

I'm gonna make sure that you

do not get arrested alone.

989

I'm gonna document this

whole entire thing.

990

I'm gonna get in my complaints.

991

There were people who said, you know, I

have privilege in the size of my body.

992

I can stand here between the

cops and smaller people or people

993

of color, you know, and think

about our identity privileges.

994

Mm-hmm.

995

You know, and there's folks who

might who, um, were like, guess what?

996

I can't be here.

997

Like, I, I, my job will be at

risk, my family will be at risk.

998

I can't be here, but I can

do a quick drive by and throw

999

some water outta my car.

00:36:44,663 --> 00:36:44,753

Mm-hmm.

00:36:44,993 --> 00:36:45,293

Awesome.

00:36:45,293 --> 00:36:45,773

Thank you.

00:36:45,773 --> 00:36:47,393

Like someone came and dropped off pizza.

00:36:47,573 --> 00:36:47,783

Yeah.

00:36:47,783 --> 00:36:49,133

You know, there was a lady who was

00:36:49,133 --> 00:36:52,763

Erin Sellers: like, I'm on my way home

from my job, but I had extra cookies and

00:36:52,763 --> 00:36:57,443

I just wanted to s swing through and like

hand them out to you guys and then left.

00:36:57,503 --> 00:36:59,003

Um, yeah.

00:36:59,003 --> 00:37:00,113

So I think just mm-hmm.

00:37:00,533 --> 00:37:03,953

There's a space for so many

people in so many different roles.

00:37:03,983 --> 00:37:04,253

Yes.

00:37:04,253 --> 00:37:04,973

To protest.

00:37:04,973 --> 00:37:08,273

Hadley: And when you commit to your

role, we get to move from a group of

00:37:08,273 --> 00:37:12,023

individuals to a collaborating, you know.

00:37:12,433 --> 00:37:13,903

Organic movement.

00:37:13,933 --> 00:37:14,023

Mm-hmm.

00:37:14,263 --> 00:37:17,543

That can say, you know, for, in my

experience, I had a very specific

00:37:17,543 --> 00:37:18,953

role that I took on June 11th.

00:37:18,953 --> 00:37:20,783

I was like, I'm not gonna

move from this position.

00:37:20,783 --> 00:37:22,493

This is my, this is my role.

00:37:22,493 --> 00:37:22,583

Mm-hmm.

00:37:22,868 --> 00:37:26,423

And I had to trust that everyone

else was doing their role.

00:37:26,423 --> 00:37:26,433

Mm-hmm.

00:37:26,448 --> 00:37:28,553

Like, you know, I didn't have

my phone, I couldn't communicate

00:37:28,553 --> 00:37:29,453

with a lot of those people.

00:37:29,693 --> 00:37:33,803

But knowing that we had designated,

there's gonna be people who are watching.

00:37:33,803 --> 00:37:36,773

If I get arrested, there's gonna be people

who are ready to take my bail phone call

00:37:36,953 --> 00:37:39,053

makes everybody more able to tap in.

00:37:39,053 --> 00:37:39,413

music: Mm-hmm.

00:37:39,419 --> 00:37:43,073

Hadley: And then be in that moment

and assess your risk and safety.

00:37:43,103 --> 00:37:43,193

Mm-hmm.

00:37:43,433 --> 00:37:46,343

Like what can you actually commit

to, not everybody, not everybody

00:37:46,343 --> 00:37:47,453

should be risking arrest.

00:37:47,453 --> 00:37:47,463

Mm-hmm.

00:37:48,593 --> 00:37:51,413

And people who are risking arrest, we

hope we can create the conditions mm-hmm.

00:37:51,653 --> 00:37:55,013

To do it tactically, meaningfully,

and ideally as safe as possible,

00:37:55,013 --> 00:37:56,603

because it's still very dangerous.

00:37:56,663 --> 00:37:56,753

Mm-hmm.

00:37:56,993 --> 00:38:00,983

We are still sending people to

one of the most dangerous deadly

00:38:00,983 --> 00:38:02,543

police forces in the nation.

00:38:02,543 --> 00:38:02,553

Mm-hmm.

00:38:02,748 --> 00:38:03,088

We cannot.

00:38:04,163 --> 00:38:04,763

Undermine.

00:38:04,768 --> 00:38:04,998

Mm-hmm.

00:38:05,083 --> 00:38:06,143

Like that risk.

00:38:06,143 --> 00:38:08,663

When we think about

turning into the streets,

00:38:08,753 --> 00:38:12,473

Val: we talked to Ben Stucker after

the protest, and he was talking about

00:38:12,473 --> 00:38:16,853

like, even the conditions in the van,

like after getting arrested and waiting

00:38:16,853 --> 00:38:18,533

in the van to get taken to jail.

00:38:18,533 --> 00:38:18,833

Monkey Hot,

00:38:19,163 --> 00:38:21,533

Erin Sellers: they wouldn't open

the windows for air conditioning.

00:38:21,533 --> 00:38:21,863

Somebody

00:38:21,893 --> 00:38:26,423

Val: like had their period and like

bled through their pants and like, like

00:38:26,543 --> 00:38:30,203

even something like that, like if you

had, you know, a heart condition mm-hmm.

00:38:30,443 --> 00:38:34,583

Where if you're in a hot car for extended

period of time, like that could kill you.

00:38:34,583 --> 00:38:34,913

You know?

00:38:34,913 --> 00:38:42,053

So I, I think I, I never, I hadn't

really appreciated, I guess the, the

00:38:42,053 --> 00:38:45,113

amount of risk that you have to consider.

00:38:45,113 --> 00:38:48,263

'cause like, I never thought, like, oh

man, like I had, if I got arrested, I

00:38:48,263 --> 00:38:51,653

would have to make sure, and, and I,

you know, didn't have a partner at home.

00:38:51,653 --> 00:38:54,743

I'd have to make sure somebody's there

to feed my dog or cat or whatever.

00:38:54,743 --> 00:38:55,253

And like.

00:38:55,913 --> 00:38:59,063

And that's just something that doesn't

really cross your mind and I think

00:38:59,063 --> 00:39:00,923

doesn't cross a lot of people's minds.

00:39:01,023 --> 00:39:04,563

specifically like on June 14th with

people who were not very experienced.

00:39:05,403 --> 00:39:05,583

And

00:39:05,583 --> 00:39:07,383

Hadley: then you might end

up in situations where people

00:39:07,383 --> 00:39:08,493

who are arrested mm-hmm.

00:39:08,733 --> 00:39:12,663

Are, um, you know, gonna basically

have leverage held over them that makes

00:39:12,663 --> 00:39:15,123

it, I possible for them to continue

to be part of the movement mm-hmm.

00:39:15,363 --> 00:39:17,613

Or makes them compromised so

we can't organize with them.

00:39:17,613 --> 00:39:17,703

Mm-hmm.

00:39:17,703 --> 00:39:19,503

And that's part of what we're

trying to prevent here too.

00:39:19,503 --> 00:39:23,313

It's like, let's be, let's use

our risk when it's really wise.

00:39:23,313 --> 00:39:25,203

And I'll name like the complication.

00:39:25,533 --> 00:39:30,213

I felt very conflicted on June, June

14th, running around between police and

00:39:30,333 --> 00:39:34,653

community, going back and forth, feeling

like I was negotiating with power.

00:39:34,953 --> 00:39:38,103

Like it did not feel good, but

it was in a recognition, again,

00:39:38,103 --> 00:39:39,663

placing in that context that.

00:39:40,248 --> 00:39:42,258

The state has a monopoly on violence.

00:39:42,258 --> 00:39:42,348

Mm-hmm.

00:39:42,408 --> 00:39:45,618

And there was no way we would've been

able to protect each other mm-hmm.

00:39:45,624 --> 00:39:47,598

If the police decided to

be violent that night.

00:39:47,778 --> 00:39:47,958

music: Mm-hmm.

00:39:48,048 --> 00:39:50,838

Hadley: And the safest move

without a clear goal that we were

00:39:50,838 --> 00:39:52,158

trying to move towards mm-hmm.

00:39:52,338 --> 00:39:53,898

Was to try to deescalate.

00:39:53,958 --> 00:39:54,168

Mm-hmm.

00:39:54,228 --> 00:39:56,208

And I'm grateful that

eventually they just did leave.

00:39:56,568 --> 00:39:56,658

Mm-hmm.

00:39:56,659 --> 00:39:58,578

But like, unfortunately, a lot

of people got hurt and a lot more

00:39:58,578 --> 00:39:59,868

people got arrested before that.

00:40:00,108 --> 00:40:02,328

And the fact that they left in the

end of the night just drives home how.

00:40:02,718 --> 00:40:03,408

Pointless.

00:40:03,468 --> 00:40:04,098

It was right.

00:40:04,143 --> 00:40:07,398

Like, like, you know, if people had

just been allowed to keep marching Yeah.

00:40:07,398 --> 00:40:09,378

It would've annoyed traffic, but

everyone would've petered out.

00:40:09,378 --> 00:40:10,068

I, I mean, yeah.

00:40:10,188 --> 00:40:13,308

You get, I wanna give credit to the fact

that they marched for like six hours.

00:40:13,428 --> 00:40:17,058

Like it started at like four o'clock

and it, like we, the curfew or whatever

00:40:17,058 --> 00:40:18,528

was called at like nine or something.

00:40:18,528 --> 00:40:22,038

Like, that's, that's a lot of unplanned,

marching way to go, everybody.

00:40:22,428 --> 00:40:23,538

Uh, and like that's a win too.

00:40:23,598 --> 00:40:23,688

Mm-hmm.

00:40:24,048 --> 00:40:26,718

And I feel sad that it

didn't get to end on Yeah.

00:40:26,718 --> 00:40:27,258

At least.

00:40:27,498 --> 00:40:28,248

And not even a win.

00:40:28,278 --> 00:40:30,918

'cause it's still, I'm, I'm

like, it's still, what was it?

00:40:30,918 --> 00:40:32,673

Like it's still, yeah, it's still a, yeah.

00:40:32,918 --> 00:40:33,458

You know?

00:40:33,638 --> 00:40:33,938

Mm-hmm.

00:40:34,028 --> 00:40:36,158

A protest without a specific action.

00:40:36,158 --> 00:40:39,218

But I believe in the need for us to

continue to show each other mm-hmm.

00:40:39,248 --> 00:40:42,038

That we're on the streets and we

will react and we will organize.

00:40:42,488 --> 00:40:42,608

Mm-hmm.

00:40:42,609 --> 00:40:44,708

And that is creating connections,

like through scoring I've met.

00:40:44,738 --> 00:40:44,828

Mm-hmm.

00:40:44,828 --> 00:40:46,958

I've, these are all people I've met

at protests, all people I've met

00:40:46,958 --> 00:40:51,008

volunteering as a peacekeeper, and now

we are connected in a way that's helping

00:40:51,008 --> 00:40:54,608

us, like actually skillful, like, use

our skills to help keep each other safe.

00:40:54,608 --> 00:40:55,988

And that feels really empowering.

00:40:56,498 --> 00:40:56,738

Erin Sellers: That's awesome.

00:40:56,738 --> 00:41:00,278

So what are the questions you need to

ask yourself to know when you need to go?

00:41:00,303 --> 00:41:00,723

Mm-hmm.

00:41:00,803 --> 00:41:01,003

Yes.

00:41:01,183 --> 00:41:03,398

Hadley: So first of all, you should

come in ahead of time, hopefully with

00:41:03,398 --> 00:41:05,378

an assessment of your risk for arrest.

00:41:05,618 --> 00:41:06,008

Mm-hmm.

00:41:06,009 --> 00:41:07,658

I think everybody should be

orienting themselves around

00:41:07,658 --> 00:41:08,798

the possibility of arrest.

00:41:08,798 --> 00:41:11,498

If police are there, the risk is exists.

00:41:11,498 --> 00:41:11,508

Mm-hmm.

00:41:11,923 --> 00:41:15,608

I kind of, in my mind, like to

think about like a red, orange,

00:41:15,728 --> 00:41:16,958

yellow kind of situation.

00:41:16,958 --> 00:41:20,078

I think it's clear we don't actually

get to know what the police consider

00:41:20,078 --> 00:41:20,978

red, orange, yellow, mm-hmm.

00:41:21,088 --> 00:41:24,698

In a, in a, you know,

action or a protest, but.

00:41:24,968 --> 00:41:28,538

You need to be thinking about your

relationship to the hot zones, basically.

00:41:28,568 --> 00:41:28,658

Mm-hmm.

00:41:28,898 --> 00:41:32,738

So if you are a person who cannot

risk arrest, if you are a person who

00:41:32,738 --> 00:41:35,708

cannot be, you know, who can't be seen

'cause your boss is gonna get mad.

00:41:35,738 --> 00:41:35,828

Mm-hmm.

00:41:36,068 --> 00:41:38,318

Like one weigh those risks.

00:41:38,438 --> 00:41:38,588

Mm-hmm.

00:41:38,858 --> 00:41:40,658

Love, we like take them

when it's necessary.

00:41:40,868 --> 00:41:43,598

But what if your job is something

that's really vital to the community?

00:41:43,598 --> 00:41:43,608

Mm-hmm.

00:41:43,608 --> 00:41:44,163

Like what if you.

00:41:45,123 --> 00:41:47,643

I don't know, like work at

a food bank that's mm-hmm.

00:41:47,643 --> 00:41:50,343

You, you're the only person who's

feeding a bunch of people at your

00:41:50,343 --> 00:41:51,488

church or something like mm-hmm.

00:41:51,693 --> 00:41:52,833

We're gonna, yeah.

00:41:52,833 --> 00:41:53,763

Like, we're gonna weigh that.

00:41:53,763 --> 00:41:55,923

We're like, you know, hey,

like, are, like, do, do we act?

00:41:55,953 --> 00:41:57,303

Do we want your skills to be at risk?

00:41:57,303 --> 00:41:58,593

Or do we want your

skills in the community?

00:41:58,593 --> 00:41:58,683

Mm-hmm.

00:41:58,683 --> 00:42:01,053

So like, people should be

thinking holistically about what

00:42:01,053 --> 00:42:02,553

they can offer and their risk.

00:42:02,883 --> 00:42:04,503

Think about your family

and your dependencies.

00:42:04,593 --> 00:42:05,883

Like, who's relying on you.

00:42:06,243 --> 00:42:10,983

Um, I encountered a lot of people on the

11th who were so activated, they were

00:42:10,983 --> 00:42:12,573

like, heck yeah, I'm committing to arrest.

00:42:12,933 --> 00:42:13,023

Mm-hmm.

00:42:13,029 --> 00:42:14,043

I'm not like, I'm gonna help.

00:42:14,103 --> 00:42:14,193

Mm-hmm.

00:42:14,253 --> 00:42:16,713

And as we started to talk through

it, you know, we're like, wait.

00:42:16,713 --> 00:42:16,773

Yeah.

00:42:16,803 --> 00:42:18,303

But no one who's gonna pick up my kid.

00:42:18,303 --> 00:42:18,393

Mm-hmm.

00:42:18,393 --> 00:42:20,973

And I totally recognize there's

really good humans who jumped

00:42:20,973 --> 00:42:21,993

to action in the moment.

00:42:21,993 --> 00:42:22,003

Mm-hmm.

00:42:22,203 --> 00:42:25,383

But we are all safer if we can

take a breath and really think

00:42:25,383 --> 00:42:26,733

about where to place ourselves.

00:42:27,243 --> 00:42:30,303

And really like that first question is.

00:42:30,393 --> 00:42:34,443

Are you a, like, what are the implications

and how ready are you to risk arrest?

00:42:34,683 --> 00:42:37,923

You should be thinking about your

positioning based on that question.

00:42:38,223 --> 00:42:41,373

If you are someone who has the

privilege that you could risk arrest.

00:42:41,373 --> 00:42:44,073

I mean, I'm in a position

where I don't have kids.

00:42:44,133 --> 00:42:44,223

music: Mm-hmm.

00:42:44,793 --> 00:42:46,143

Hadley: Uh, you know, I work for myself.

00:42:46,353 --> 00:42:47,403

I'm not firing me yet.

00:42:47,403 --> 00:42:51,453

Like, you know, there's, there's

fewer dependencies that exist for me.

00:42:51,453 --> 00:42:55,263

If I take a risk, uh, there's folks who

may have the privilege of their bodies

00:42:55,263 --> 00:42:57,243

are less likely to be targeted by police.

00:42:57,273 --> 00:42:57,393

Mm-hmm.

00:42:57,723 --> 00:42:58,798

Uh, that includes, you know.

00:42:59,498 --> 00:43:05,348

Times where being an elder, uh, white

woman maybe, or being a very strong large

00:43:05,348 --> 00:43:09,218

man, like these are two, there's times

where your body can be, can be useful.

00:43:09,218 --> 00:43:13,058

So it's sort of a combination of like,

think about how you're trying to use

00:43:13,058 --> 00:43:14,528

your privilege to the highest level.

00:43:14,528 --> 00:43:14,588

Yeah.

00:43:14,888 --> 00:43:16,928

But then you need to be ready to move.

00:43:17,288 --> 00:43:21,278

I think what we experienced on the 11th

was what's often referred to as kettling.

00:43:21,338 --> 00:43:21,428

music: Mm-hmm.

00:43:21,678 --> 00:43:25,938

Hadley: which is a tactic where police

and law enforcement are really cornering

00:43:25,938 --> 00:43:28,968

the protest into a specific box or a zone.

00:43:29,328 --> 00:43:29,508

Mm-hmm.

00:43:29,748 --> 00:43:33,018

Uh, which the idea of once they box

everybody in, they have some control

00:43:33,018 --> 00:43:35,088

over it and can force a dispersal.

00:43:35,538 --> 00:43:38,928

But what the implication of that

was that people couldn't leave.

00:43:38,928 --> 00:43:38,988

Yeah.

00:43:38,988 --> 00:43:40,368

People didn't know how to leave.

00:43:40,368 --> 00:43:41,448

There was no exit.

00:43:41,448 --> 00:43:44,418

We talked to many folks who were

getting contradicting orders

00:43:44,418 --> 00:43:45,528

around, oh, go to the street.

00:43:45,528 --> 00:43:46,218

Go to the street.

00:43:46,338 --> 00:43:46,458

Mm-hmm.

00:43:46,758 --> 00:43:49,008

And people who got, who were

led directly to their arrest.

00:43:49,013 --> 00:43:49,093

Mm-hmm.

00:43:49,173 --> 00:43:49,653

After they were told.

00:43:50,303 --> 00:43:51,413

That's the safe way out.

00:43:51,813 --> 00:43:55,293

a lot of our, like the activism community,

and you know, as we're thinking about