In this episode, we talk to Ms. Shannon Payne about her start as a substitute teacher and how it led her to being a school counselor. Ms. Payne discusses the passion ignited by working with students and how she establishes relationships with students, families, and colleagues through trust. Her primary reason for staying in education is the service to students.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

educators, work, school counselor, students, feel, talk, teacher, kids, years, school, stay, people, collaborate, administrators, day, children, substitute, passion, policies, job

SPEAKERS

Amy Vujaklija, Joi Patterson, Shannon Payne

When people feel supported, they do better when people feel that somebody believes in them, that changes the way they look at themselves. And these are young minds that are being developed.

Welcome to our podcast teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. I am Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Director of educator preparation.

And I am Dr. Joi Patterson chief diversity officer. Our podcast addresses issues through the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion, along with solutions for us to grow as educators. So

join us on our journey to become better teachers and leaders. So let's get into it. Good morning, Dr. Joi.

Good morning, Dr. Amy, how are you today?

I am fantastic. And you know why? It's because we're going to be talking to educators through a series of conversations about why they are staying in education.

You know what, Amy, this is very exciting, Dr. Amy, because we spend so much time talking about why educators leave the field. And so we have a wealth of knowledge about that. So now to put our energy into why educators stay, I think is awesome. So I'm looking forward not only to this episode, but this year, this new beginning of just embracing why we stay.

And we you and I have been looking at our work in the podcast and what we do at the university through the lens of meaningful work and to thin that or to flip that and use that lens. In our conversations with educators who stay in the field. I really want to delve into that I want to see what meaningful work is in education in the classroom serving students, as School Support Personnel Administrators. And that's our goal and what is going to light the fire and keep that fire burning. So today we are going to talk to Shannon Payne, who has been a professional school counselor for five years after earning a Master of Arts in Counseling from Governor State University. Miss Payne currently works for Chicago Public Schools. She also has a type 73 endorsement and is a licensed professional counselor. She has worked in education since 2016. Before working for Chicago Public Schools, Miss Payne worked for the University of Chicago on a research project where she developed a 20 week curriculum called Pathways to self advocacy, college and career and also facilitated educator workshops. Welcome to our podcast, Miss Shannon Payne.

Good morning, Shannon. How are you? Oh, everybody's how are you? Great. It's great to see you this morning. We're so happy to have this conversation. We talk about challenges. But more importantly, we talk about solutions. But this is different, because, you know, we want to talk about why educators today. And so we're wanting to learn more about you today, and starting with your journey. Because as I understand it, you started off as a substitute teacher, and you're now a licensed school counselor. So if you could share more about yourself for our listeners, and talk about your journey to becoming a professional educator.

So I started off at changing careers after having a child the job that I had at that time. It was too far and it was too stressful to have a small child in addition to a small child that was sickly, so a relative of mine who was the superintendent of the school suggested Why don't you substitute you can pick the day that you want to come in. And I said sure. I did not know what I was in for at that moment. So I had gone and the first day it was second grade. It was a lot but from there on the school kept asking me back like every day and then that job as a substitute. Turn into two because there was a lot of gaps and absences are having teachers at their school. So well most schools. So I was like a full time art teacher for one year and then I was a music teacher, then I was a gym teacher, then I held down Fifth grade for like half of the year for FMLA. Leave. But in that community being a constant reoccurring face for the children, and then their parents, most people forgot that I was a substitute and treated me like a regular teacher has started to confide in me, before they would go to regular administration and staff. So in that moment, I saw this writer need five children's needs because they were emotionally all over the place. And this was back in 2015 2016. And that's when I knew like I was called to do something greater. And nothing subsuming is not a phenomenal job in itself. But I always kind of felt like I was a server. And I had the passion to work in school counseling, and I absolutely love when my school counselors did for me, in high school, and the role that they played, pretty much changed my life. So being able to be on the phone with parents for hours as a substitute. They were crying, they were reaching out that they needed to help the kids were crying, they needed help. I felt like that is what like jolted me into this role as a school counselor. I do remember, my school counselors and I wanted to do their job. I just didn't know the fields and go into it at that time. And I felt like this is my passion. So I love what I do.

Oh, my goodness. You know, we have discussed so many reasons why people leave the field of education. And often that overshadows the reasons people stay. So having this conversation with you today is really rejuvenating to me. And we want to delve into that topic of why people stay. Could you tell us a little bit more about your role and how you define your role as an educator in the context in which you serve?

Oh, it's great area all over the place. I will say that as going after, because people, every school you will go to will give you a different job description. But how I personally define my role as a school counselor is I'm here to serve the kids. If anybody ever asks me what I do, I said, I'm here to talk to children about their feelings. And for me, it's it's all about the kids. And I think that's where people lose sight of this is a field of service. This is not a field of glitz and glam. And that's why I think the passion is what keeps me going to see people change their lives to see people get introduced to new things, new environments, new topics that they were never exposed to at home or in their communities. So when I say how I define my role is to help is to assist it's literally to counsel. When people feel supported, they do better when people feel that somebody believes in them, that changes the way they look at themselves. And these are young minds that are being developed. So I mean, if we wonder why we have so many issues with the current generation, our the tick packers, like well, who believes in them who poured into them? So I feel like that is what defines my role. Like, I'm sure I have a full job description. I've read it a couple of times, because I had to reiterate it to administrators. But what I find my job is as a servicer, as a helper.

Yes. And I agree with that. And we're constantly reminding people that school counselors are also educators, you know, and they see that you sometimes it's different. I think it is a great path for a school counselor to have been a teacher first. I think you understand students and working with teachers at a whole nother level when you do that. So it's great that you have that opportunity. I also think it's a great opportunity to substitute teach, before you become an educator to really learn more about yourself. And is this something I can build a career on? So when you think back, and you gave us some tidbits already, and I can totally relate to that. Think back to when you became an educator for a moment, you know, so you decided to because it was a job that was flexible for you and your family. But think back to when you started this journey. Was there a defining time and I'm hearing some of those moments where you hear other teachers coming to you right? So was there a Definer? You kind of trusted yourself when you actually felt like I'm a professional educator, and I can positively impact the lives of students.

I would say that my defining moment I'm trying to I'm trying to answer the question correctly, because I know hours I'll take some detours

That's okay.

When I work with the kids, and I see how the behavior changes, I see how the attitude changes, I see that I can get more from them and building that relationship with them, then the teacher has been there for five years, I do have a special Knack about me, I make people feel really comfortable. And so I think that was my defining moment. Why are they coming to me? Instead of going to the administrator that's been here for 17 years? Why do they feel comfortable with me, and the thing is, like seeing that you made a difference in a kid's life, like I do, I said, yesterday, like, my jam is high school. And the biggest thing that I take away as a reward is knowing my students will never consider colleges actually going, knowing that I have 100% college acceptance rates, knowing that a student who had never been downtown before, even though they live in the city of Chicago gets to go there, knowing that kids still reach out to me that my oldest kids now are like, 24. And they still text me like Miss P, I gotta tell you what just happened, I got a job. And it's like, just being there for somebody and seeing that they feel that comfort, that have that confidence in you. I think that's what I was born to do. And that's why I say that's my passion. That is like the defining moment that it's a thankless job for a lot of people. But for me, that's my bank.

Yeah, you know, I could totally relate, I can remember, you know, when I was teaching and thinking, Oh, I can't believe I get paid for this. It was like the best secret. And I was like, I can't in that regard. And I had that special moment. And it is a moment sometimes, you know, you're like, oh, my gosh, for my daughter, who's now been teaching 13 years, who invites me and my mother to her classroom, like, can you help me get my room together, cuz this is my thing for the year, this is you know, and she brings her team in to help create this experience for her students. And she's so excited about that every year for 13 years. This is our favorite day, like, you know, I'm getting ready for the school year, I'm ready to bring it. And to have that kind of energy. You know, in those defining times where you say, I am, you know, I trust myself, and I am a professional educator, and I am making a difference, and you're making a difference in a whole lot of ways.

And I think that's something special, like an educator, just can't be anybody. I think it's certain people that were born to do this, and then they're starting to get tossed into it. And then they're like, Oh, what am I doing here? And I think that's the difference. Because I wasn't 21 When I became an educator, it took some time for me to get here. But this is my thing. These are my people.

I have had that experience where you walk into a room, other educators. And even whenever it's not other educators, like at a conference, and I'm at a small get together in the neighborhood, I find that the educator at that get together. And that's who I talked to the entire time, because I That's my sense of self. And so it's kind of embarrassing, actually. I love hearing that ownership and that trusting in yourself. But I also know that there are times when no matter what we believe there are higher powers, there's administrative, there's policies that might go against that. I know, when I was a classroom teacher, there were times that administrators disagreed with the books I wanted to use to or activities I wanted to do with my students that might have veered off path from what the other English teachers were doing in the department. So getting from point A to point Z. I wanted it to look a little differently. But I couldn't always do that. And I wanted to know, have you ever worried about situations or policies that might be at odds with your beliefs, or your ideas of best practices? And how did you face them?

Okay, so one thing, administration is a whole tricky subject in itself, and some policies that the schools have that I have not believed in and I didn't agree with. One of the things as I say integrity is everything. And again, I'm a service for the children above all Are things and I think that's what I always stick and stay with. So if something does not feel right, and it will cause harm to my students, I don't think this is the best place for me, I think it might be time for me to move along. And I've had some transitions from schools, not that I was ever let go, I was actually there to stay most of the times. And then administrators were saying they would go back and look at what they said or the things that they had done. But we both know that was only going to be for a moment, and then it was going to change back to their original policy, or some rules that were unwritten. So I just say, finding that right school home for you that allows you to flourish. But in any situation that I have felt, I'm always going to advocate for the kids. I'm always student virus, it's masked as far as what am I here for is really like my my mantra on life. I'm here to talk to children about their feelings. And so I've seen some, some administrative policies that were detrimental to students. And I had to advocate for my kids, always. So

I want to talk to you about collaboration, and school support personnel, like school counselors, I imagine there's a lot of collaboration that needs to occur. I remember, as a new teacher, I did not collaborate, I didn't, because I was thrust in the classroom, I didn't collaborate because I wanted to keep the noise in the gossip. Anything that didn't have to do with student learning out of my classroom. And so I had learned the skill of collaborating in a way where that wasn't part of it, you know, it's not really kept to myself a lot. As a new teacher, it wasn't until later and becoming an administrator that I relied on collaboration. And now I really rely on collaboration. So as an administrator, you know, on a school counselor, when you collaborate with your other school counselors, and teachers and administrators, because you got to collaborate with all of them, who you collaborate with the most. And what joy do you find in collaborating?

Um, this is a trick question for me. At school counselor, you have to be flexible to collaborate with everybody, this is a social job. So you have to learn people's personalities. I collaborate with children, parents, administrators, and other counselors, but honestly, my number one collaborators on my students, building relationships, you can get them to do anything if they believe and trust into you. So I need their feedback to make sure I'm giving them programming, and drills and tips that they need to be successful. And then they can come work with me and presenting this to the school. So those are my biggest collaborations. What do you guys want to see happen? Because once you get them to buy into what you're doing, and it's what they need, that's when it's going to be successful. Outside of my students, I would say collaborating with other counselors, I thrive and feed off of every time conferences happened. I love all the Eskers is these ask us, which is Illinois School Counseling Association, American School Counseling Association, even CPS, we do a lot of conference work and professional learning communities. Those are when I like a refreshed reset and and refocus my thoughts and be like, that would be an amazing idea. I haven't thought about that. Let me take that to my kids and see what they think about it. And some things have been amazing. The kids loved it. And then some kid things that I brought back to my school. They're like, no mystery. That's No. Did you get that from old people? And I'm like I did. So I totally feel like this is a social job. You have to learn how to talk, network. Understand, listen with your heart as a skill set.

It sounds like you got another skill set. You got to stay current. Right? Absolutely.

You can't get ideas from old people cracking up

ever changing. So what I did five years ago is not working today. Right.

And there's a lot that's happened in the last five years that made the times change and are the ways we approach children changed drastically.

These are different kids. And I think as society continues to move on, the kids will forever We change. So you cannot stay with the same curriculum that you were doing five years ago, you have to be able to have that ability to develop and present to your students, new information, new ways to present it to keep their attention. Because these, these students currently don't have the attention span for kids 15 years ago had

let's focus on your personal experiences in facing adversity and how have you managed facing adversity or disagreement or lack of unity.

And just something to that Shannon, as an administrator, especially in my current position as Chief Diversity Officer, sometimes I feel like an intrusive influencer, you know, that I'm always trying to, but I feel very intrusive. And I know a lot of school counselors feel that way. Like you have to be really, really intrusive. And what you really want is people to the students to constantly seek you out and come to you and teachers to seek you out. But sometimes you have to be intrusive. I like it when people seek me out, you know, you know that you really, really, really have value. And I probably need to come to you for some tips. So I don't have to be such an intrusive influencer. So do you feel like you have unity like within yourself, within your school with your colleagues?

Absolutely. One of the biggest things is, listen to people. That's really what people want. They want to be heard. So how I deal with the disagreements amongst staff and students and administration is hear them out. Listen to their whole story. I can listen to you and not necessarily agree with everything that you say. But the fact that you felt heard is you I won over I built that relationship where you feel comfortable talking to me, and you could feel comfortable confiding in me. So one of the things is that keep an open door policy for everybody. I get text messages at night, I do I do struggle with those healthy boundaries, like, Oh, someone saw what happened. And I'm like, Okay, we'll pick it up in the morning. But keep them that open door policy where people feel comfortable to come to you, in addition to counseling work framework is confidentiality. So if you feel that I'm going to go and blab this to somebody else, in the next five minutes, you're not going to feel comfortable talking to me, right. So I think that is one of the things because I know a lot of things, but I don't repeat those things that I hear. Because if there's something I can do about it, to stop this from going any further, I absolutely am going to try my hardest to mend, you know, disagreements and things that are that are going wrong. And that's, I think, a part of culture and climate. I think as educators that's important and you're building. But what about anything else, and I'm unable to correct it, because it's not within my power, or it's above my paygrade, you still know I heard you and you were able to vent those things out.

You know that, that confidentiality, that you have to have as a counselor that also is founded on that trust. And whenever you are talking about trust, that is something that all educators have to develop with their colleagues, with their students. And only when we can really be in a room with other people we trust and we feel close to and connected to, does it seem like that we can become the best versions of ourselves? And I know that there are certain people that I work with, that helped me become a better version of myself. Could you maybe talk about the people who raise you up and help you become a better version of you have been in pain?

Think one, spirituality is a form of improvement for me. So that's always my go to, but also have those counselors that I talked about that I had in high school that changed my view on life, they gave me jewels that i will i am forever grateful and thankful for. And I still talk to them to this day. They were very instrumental on the tooth in history. And even once I was in school I had gotten and said I have phenomenal professor, Dr. G. And I still talk to her as well. Every year we have a time where we sit down and we rehash a year. And am those people I call them my mentors I think they pour in to people. So the next generation people can pour into people. Another person who keeps me going even on those hard days is my child and my family. I think knowing that somebody needs you and is rooting for you is that constant thing that keeps you going so I can identify with what my children need at school, and I call them my children, I always tell people, I'm I gave birth to one kid, but I have like, in the 1000s, at this point, have children. And kids love that to be a part of something and to feel that you care. And it's a family, because everybody wants to be loved, cared for and like supported. So I think the people who have poured into me as I try to pay it forward, is

phenomenal. Yeah. And I have a final question for you. Because this has been amazing. And this is exactly what educators need to hear, to inspire them other educators. And so I want you to share maybe a few things about some of the things that you've done, where you feel like you've really impacted student learning, and also kind of maybe wrap up some things of why you really think that you stay into this profession.

So part question, if I get away, please bring me back. One of the reasons, I will say that I impact students learning is being present. I know my presence makes a difference in the building. I know certain students cannot start their day until they greet me in the morning, like I've been called, From back from a training by my administrator like five times, because kids were flipping out that I wasn't standing on my posts when they walk in, to just acknowledge their presence. And I think my presence and acknowledging their presence means so much to kids. So I felt like that is like the thing that keeps kids academically sound because I never approach a kid, even if I know they're failing. I never say you're failing and point the finger. I'm always saying so our grades aren't looking where they should be. So what are we going to do? Because we need to develop a plan, and I make it a community thing. It's not just you are failing, you're on your own. Why did you get here. So that presence of failing, you're in good company and you're being supported, I feel is what's keeping them academically sound and keeping the grades and the support. And also I will refer you to a mentor, or tutor or some type of academic enrichment program in a heartbeat to make sure you're where your needs to be. Part two of that question was, why do I say, This is my passion, I love what I do, I can wake up in the morning even on bad days, and be like, I remember a time that I was hoping for what I have for now. Because I've been in a dead end job before that I'm like, I hate going to work. So just having that thought of like, this is what I want to pray for it. And now I'm here. And I'm changing lives. That part.

So I just want to commend you, Shannon, on all of the work that you do. Mental Health Wellness is so important, especially now that we've experienced the pandemic. And the fact that your students are seeing you not just as a resource for when they need help. But they see you as a partner, you know, and that they're glad to see you come in and you're part of starting their day, and you're bringing them joy, that is amazing. And that speaks volumes to your work and your passion and the type of educators that we need. Because it's not just the pedagogy of your work, right? It's the heart of your work is do the work.

Thank you for seeing me in this moment. Again, this is a thankless job, but it's a job of service. So I love it. I love the kids. And thank you guys for just acknowledging and shining a light on this whole transition out of education and why people stay. Sometimes we need to be reminded like why are you staying because I think I needed this just as much as like, especially if we're going back to work on Monday. I need it there's just as much as like you guys are gonna be here and as long as so I thank you so much for having me.

Thank you. Thank you your view really brighten my day. Thank you so very much.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, ladies. Take care.

Thank you for listening to teaching and leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi. Visit our website at govst.edu/teaching and leading podcast to see the show notes from this episode.

We appreciate Governor State University's work behind the scenes to make publishing possible. Stay tuned for more episodes with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi.