Dan connects with classically trained vocalist James Taylor Jr, who discusses his upcoming Pride album and the continuing importance of Pride as both celebration and protest.

The conversation explores Queer history, including the often-overlooked persecution of gay men during the Holocaust and Germany's destroyed legacy of gender and sexuality research. James reflects on his Catholic school upbringing and the complex journey of coming out to his parents at age 12.

James and Dan share a fascinating discussion about why The Wizard of Oz and "Over the Rainbow" resonates so deeply with young Queer children, with James noting how the song embodies the universal Queer longing for acceptance and belonging.

His recommended gateway track is "Pride (Stripped)," which beautifully bridges his musical past and future.

Find James at jamestaylorjuniormusic.com and on social media platforms linked from his website.

Spotify playlist can be found HERE.

The podcast is on Instagram (@inthekeyofq) and Facebook (search: In the Key of Q).

Dan

Hello, I'm Dan Hall. By day, I produce and direct documentaries. But by night I make podcasts that celebrate and amplify Queer musicians. You can always reach the show over at inthekeyofq@gmail.com. And all previous episodes are available at inthekeyofq.com. Now this week's guest is a classically trained vocalist who's been singing since he was two.

Dan

His music and performing style have received accolades from those within and without the industry, and he's currently working on his Pride album.

Dan

I'd like to give a great In the Key of Q welcome to the wonderful James Taylor Junior. James. Hello!

James Taylor Jr

Hello. That was really loud of me.

Dan

Hey, you'll have to try that. You'll have to work hard to get louder than I am.

James Taylor Jr

Wow. I don't know what to say.

Dan

Let's start on the pride album that I just mentioned. What? What is this? And it's. I guess it's not ready yet.

James Taylor Jr

James Taylor Jr

I asked people for pictures or video to send in, and, I would get to the first chorus, which is, I've got pride and then the first video hits of these two men holding up Love Is Love and holding each other. And when you see that over and over and over again, you think it would lose something and it just never did.

Dan

So why do we need pride as a concept? Because some people might go, do you know what, guys? You've got your marriage, you've got your equal rights. Why don't you bitches just stop moaning?

James Taylor Jr

Yeah, well, we don't have fully equal rights. There are still so many things that we can be discriminated against for, or the way that we're treated within society, even. It doesn't always matter what the law is. But I also think there's sort of a need to, understand our history. For some, it's an internal need. I think there should be a little bit of a community need as well.

James Taylor Jr

Kind of like if you don't learn from the past, you're doomed to repeat it. Kind of concept. And it's just interesting. I mean, I started looking at Queer history in high school a bit. I wrote about, what was, I guess, considered just homosexual, homosexuality during World War two and, and how, they were, also in concentration camps with the Jews and the Jehovah's Witnesses and criminals as well.

James Taylor Jr

That happens. But it was just such an, it's always been such an interesting topic for me. I'm not super well-versed in it, but I certainly, opened myself up to the information.

Dan

And then, of course, something which I only found out very recently was that, of course, those hundreds and thousands of gay men who were in concentration camps when those camps were liberated. Unlike the other groups, they were then liberated to be imprisoned because it was illegal.

James Taylor Jr

James Taylor Jr

However, all of that research and years, decades and decades of information were just destroyed.

James Taylor Jr

I one of my favourite things is actually to see, like, really old photos. Like, as far back as they can get. Sometimes of just of groups of trans women or effeminate gay men, you know, just together and and sharing their experiences and what we do when we're together with other people, our tribe, or even just I have family and, you know, further friends, acquaintances like we share our experiences.

James Taylor Jr

And it's so beautiful to look back and see that even as far back as we can visibly document these people, we, we're they're we have we're not new. We just had to hide a bit. And it's beautiful to see that one moment of not hiding.

Dan

And then of course, you got people going, oh, my God, they're just everywhere. They're just everywhere now, blah, blah, blah. And of course, what they don't realise is we've just got a level of visibility that is a little bit closer to the level of presence in real life. It's just we've been absent all the time.

James Taylor Jr

Yeah. And and we weren't. Some people didn't even have the words for it. I love that there are so many different terms today. It gets exhausting trying to keep up and it's crazy. But I just go, listen, take it one term at a time. Someone comes at me with something I will take it with in stride and learn it and treat it with respect.

James Taylor Jr

But I mean like 1 in 5 adult Gen Zs is the statistic. Now I identify within the LGBTQ community. That's 20%. That's a lot of people. I mean, and we're talking Western world, obviously, because we're a little more, free here in expressing our, sexuality and our gender identity. But, I just I always think that's a fast, alienating statistic because it shows like this.

James Taylor Jr

How do I how do I know normative world that we still live in is outdated? Basically.

Dan

Why do you feel that that number has gone up from, say, the famous Kinsey Report? That put it, I think, between 8 and 10% of people who were gay, and that is now coming up, or at least gay and bi, coming up to a much larger 20%. Why do you think that has gone higher?

James Taylor Jr

I think that the huge impact, the huge factor in this, is that we have the words that we're making ourselves more visible because we understand who we are a little better. I mean, even when I was doing research in high school, the number was still, you know, 10% at most from census data or whatever. I was looking at it was a long time ago.

James Taylor Jr

So, but I just think we have the words now. I don't I don't think it impacts masculinity in a larger sense. What I do think it does is impact toxic masculinity and impacts the idea of masculinity and what that means. And for some people, that's difficult. But, masculinity, femininity, they have always changed. Always over the centuries.

James Taylor Jr

I mean, men wearing high heels and, wigs and makeup is not new. It's just now it's meant for women. So when men do it, it's taboo, even still today. But before it was, like, the norm. Like you had a good job, if that's what you were doing.

Dan

And of course, this isn't an attack on heterosexuality, because that perception, that whole toxic masculinity thing is hugely over-fetishised in Queer culture.

James Taylor Jr

Absolutely.

Dan

From bottom shaming to to so much of the scene, when you look at apps where just even when you look at people's behaviours in bars, there is this odd sort of I don't know what it is. It's almost like we're still trying to please the school bully or still trying to get liked by the school bully.

James Taylor Jr

Or we're protecting ourselves from the school bully. Like there's this huge, idea in the gay community, and there's a stereotype that you have to be, like, fit and tight and ripped and. And if you're not, you have to be teensy, teensy, tiny so that, you know, you either hyper masculine or hyper feminine. And that's just not the case for most people.

James Taylor Jr

I mean, and that sort of idea goes back well into the, late 60s and the 70s with, muscle magazines that were, you know, supposed to be about working out, but they were all about, you know, the male gaze beating off, yeah. Sure. That to.

James Taylor Jr

There's a huge part of me that, even today, still doesn't feel like I have a part in the community. Even though I have so many friends. And I've got, you know, places I go where it's every type of person. But I think there's a lot of us that feel sort of left out, either because we're aged out because there's a lot of ageism or maybe, the community that people are in doesn't really, embrace, multiple races, which happens as well still, or whatever the case may be, I was never a person who really went out, and it took me a long time to sort of find where I fit in as

James Taylor Jr

a person. And when I started this pride project, that was sort of my my goal was to find connection, to give, give people connection, to say, we're not all the same. We still have a community. It doesn't mean we have to be one thing or another, or fall into some stereotype or idea for other. People want us to be, or who we think we're supposed to be.

James Taylor Jr

I think it's important for anybody who doesn't feel like they're a part of the community to feel like they belong to something.

Dan

Why is that important, though? Why is community for you important, and how did it feel to you when you know, you were told, oh, it's fine being, you know, outside the norm, outside being heterosexual because you have a community and then you go to that community and you're thinking, oh, I still don't feel like I belong.

James Taylor Jr

But it is. It is important because just like with, generational divides, the reason we divide people into generations is shared experiences. You know, the reason, you know, some races gravitate towards each other is shared experiences. And that's really what we're looking for. We want to know we're not alone. I want to know I'm not alone. When you don't belong, when you're outside of everything and you feel so alone.

James Taylor Jr

It's just it can be devastating. It can break people. It surely can. It has.

Dan

So what was the childhood of James Taylor Junior like?

James Taylor Jr

I spent a good portion of my childhood. About half of that, in Kentucky. It was certainly was different, being a little Queer boy there in general. There was definitely bullying. There was definitely, some, physical attempt, unwanted attention from people. I got beat up, let's let's just say what it is,

Dan

Was that because you were failing in straight passing?

James Taylor Jr

Oh, absolutely. I mean, even when I didn't know it, like, you know, kids would say, you know, gay or the three-letter F-word or what? That's like, it's like to say the F word. The other F-word. But they didn't know what it meant. Really. That was why it was painful. Because I knew that they were meaning to hurt me, and that's why it hurt.

James Taylor Jr

I didn't think there was anything wrong with being gay. I just wasn't what other people expected me to be. And they wanted to hurt me. So of course, that hurt.

Dan

And how did it feel within the home? Because, like you say, we can be of different ages. And you and I have different ages are of different generations. And yet there is a commonality of a common story. It's not to say all our stories are the same, but we all have these moments of difficulty that we remember from our childhood.

Dan

And I think the home, because it's supposed to be a place of safety, is often one of those.

James Taylor Jr

I ultimately really got lucky with my parents, but there were like some things that sort of stuck out. And for a minute, my relationship with my dad wasn't super great. We just didn't really talk about it. It did eventually get to a point where we didn't talk about it, but in a positive way, like it just was.

James Taylor Jr

And, you know, in high school, like, I bring my boyfriend home and, okay, whatever he was just sent me dinner with us, and my dad had no problem. But when I first, came out to him, I was, 12 or 13. It was at the time I thought I liked girls and boys. That's what they said. And he was like, well, you know, it's wrong then.

James Taylor Jr

And that sort of hit me because I wasn't expecting it at all from my father. And I certainly wasn't expecting it from my mother. It was still a hard thing to say. I, you know, wrote her a letter, and she woke me up crying because she thought I had run away. She found a letter in the bathroom, and she's like, oh, my God.

James Taylor Jr

Wait, where is he? I'm in bed. I'm not that I'm fine. I'm asleep.

Dan

So. So she. So she comes back out of fleeing into your room, expecting to find a half empty wardrobe, and you're all sort of lying there, you know, with a type of Gibson album next to you snoring,

James Taylor Jr

Of Debbie Gibson. Might be a little long past my time. No.

Dan

And I'm showing my age.

James Taylor Jr

And it's my my Christine Aguilera CDs like. Yeah, it was interesting, but even my mom, who automatically supportive, you know, the parents say things whether you're a Queer kid or not, that just stick in your head, that they don't mean, but maybe they're trying to protect you or, or keep you from something harmful. But what they're actually doing is putting this idea in your head that you're not enough, that you're not perfect.

James Taylor Jr

I knew when my mother said to the vice principal, oh, he thinks he's bi. That "thinks he's bi" invalidated who I felt I was, who I was becoming. It really. It's like I said, it still sticks in my mind. I'm almost 40, and it's still there, and I know she meant nothing by it.

James Taylor Jr

I knew when she said it, she meant nothing by it. She was just trying to give the vice principal some context, trying to protect me from too much hate. They they make mistakes. Parents make mistakes. We all make mistakes.

Dan

And if you are listening to this as a parent, what would you suggest a straight parent to if their kid comes to them and says, I'm bi or I'm gay?

James Taylor Jr

Just love your kid. If you love your child and support them even when you do something stupid, say something stupid. They'll understand. No matter whether it hurts. We all forgive when it's worth forgiving.

Dan

Now, if you were to meet your 15 year old self. Now, what would you say to him? And what would he think of you?

James Taylor Jr

Now, I've been waiting for this question because I have listened to the show, and I, I honestly, I'm not sure I, I think he'd be a little shocked. Just because it's not necessarily what I was doing musically. Like, my sound is pretty diverse. At times. I don't like genre, but I think he'd understand. I think he'd be interested.

James Taylor Jr

I don't think he necessarily know what to think of it, but I think he'd take the time to listen and, and, and really sort of figure out what that means to him. I hope.

Dan

Now we spoke a bit in our bonus episode about Over the Rainbow, but I'd like to return to that a little bit just in this episode, because why do you think that us little Queer boys gravitated to that song when it wasn't like we had, you know, forums, special forums for five year olds that led us to it?

Dan

I literally remember my mom saying to me, I think The Wizard of Oz is on TV. She was like, oh, this is old movie on. I love that it's got some songs in it, watch it. And I was transfixed, with that song. And because, you know, that song is in the black and white portion of the film, it's not a particularly hooky song.

Dan

Why are five, six, seven year old Queer boys loving the slowest song in the film? That's in the black and white section, and doesn't have all the bangs and whistles that you think kids would like.

James Taylor Jr

And you know what? That song almost did not make the film. They really almost cut it. And it's such a huge part of our film history. Like, that song is iconic in general. So many people have done it, and I think that the reason little Queer children, not just Queer boys, Queer girls, Queer, non-binary is whatever identity kids have these days, today, even I think people connect to it because it is the ultimate I want to be somewhere, I belong song.

James Taylor Jr

It does say I need to, oh, I need to be in a place where I won't cause any trouble, you know? And little Queer kids, seeing this trouble because they're not fitting into a certain category. Or maybe they think they're going to be trouble if they don't conform, you know, and hide who they might truly be.

Dan

Yeah. And I think often in the film and Queer communities, love of it is treated as a joke, even amongst the Queer community. It's like, oh, look at those old queens loving Judy Garland doll loving The Wizard of Oz. I do think there is a real reason behind it, and I think you just hit it on the head perfectly.

James Taylor Jr

I absolutely I'm, I'm a part of some Oz community is it's like I have become. So I'm not a superb sass to some people. I'm not a huge collector, but it it was such a big part of my childhood and even the the books, the bomb books, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, marvellous Land of Oz, which, by the way, Princess Ozma told Queer icon born a girl, raised as a boy and then becomes a girl again when she realises, oh, this is who I am.

James Taylor Jr

James Taylor Jr

I mean, we're talking 20, we're talking 19, 20. There's some 16 year olds and a couple of the groups that are, young, unidentifiable, you know, people who just go, this is this is the thing I love. And it speaks to me because of all these things that we just talked about. And, and it really helps some people find their place in the world.

Dan

What's in store for the future for you, James?

James Taylor Jr

Yeah, I want to finish this pride album. It was not the first album I wanted to do, but when it came into my head, I just had to. I was like, this is, this is it. I can't do anything else until this is done. Nothing big. I've done some side songs that I am part of, and EPs.

Dan

Such as your fantastic cover of the Spice Girls' "Too Much."

James Taylor Jr

Oh my, I love oh my goodness, I, I was inspired by Melanie C's cover of their own song. She did an acoustic version and I took it and I sent it to, Johnny Neville, who is the guitarist that I use. That song actually took me a year to record, because I have muscle tension dysphonia, so I have a lot of muscle tension in my neck and shoulders that affect my vocal chords sometimes.

James Taylor Jr

And so I got all the harmonies through and it was just the lead. I was like, why did I have to put it in this key? That's right there on my break. I have to sing that the entire time. But I did it. I managed to I was pretty happy with it. I.

Dan

Had some teachers. Should be. It's, I think, what a mediocre Spice Girl song. And you sort of sing it in a way that forces are reimagining, and I would suggest people go and find it. I'll put links to it in the show notes. You know, we can't play it here because of clearance issues, but yes, definitely go and find it because it's worth a listen.

James Taylor Jr

Thank you.

Dan

James, where can people find you online?

James Taylor Jr

JamesTaylorjuniormusic.com. That's James Taylor. Most people know who that is. JamesTaylorjuniormusic.com. Most of my social media, except for the artist formerly known as Twitter, can be linked on there. You know, you can find my music from my main page. I mean, I try to make everything as simple as possible to find, even when I'm doing things like sending emails to you, like, I try to put everything you need to know in one place.

James Taylor Jr

Like, whoever needs this information, it's all in one place. You need this. Here you go. You need this. Here you go.

Dan

James. My main reason for wanting to do this podcast, as I said at the beginning, is to help amplify Queer voices and Queer music. And I like to ask the guests what their gateway song would be now they. Gateway song is effectively an introduction to their catalogue. For someone who doesn't know their material at all, what would your gateway track be and why?

James Taylor Jr

My gateway track would be "Pride (Stripped)," mainly because there's not a full version of "Pride" available at this moment, but I think even the stripped version sort of speaks to the type of music I'm coming from and the type of music I'm going toward. So the Queerness is obviously there. But then there's this stripped, just simplicity to it.

James Taylor Jr

It's just the piano and a little elbow and my voice. So that is my gateway song because it speaks to both my past and my future musically, and I think it really speaks on an emotional level for a lot of people. I've had straight people react very emotionally to it as well.

Dan

James Taylor junior, thank you so much for coming and being a guest on In the Key of Q. It's been great to have you here.

James Taylor Jr

Oh, my gosh, thank you so much, Dan, for having me.

Dan

And of course, thanks to the wonderful, talented Paul Leonidou who wrote our opening and closing theme. Thanks to Moray Laing for his continued support. Thanks to the listeners, of course, all of you out there who download these episodes and listen to them, it's fantastic that you do and it's always great to hear your feedback. So remember to reach out on inthekeyofq@gmail.com, and all that's left is for me to say big thank you to James Taylor Junior for coming on today's show, and I'll see you all next Quesday.

James Taylor Jr

So who knows what's going to come out of my mouth? So.

Dan

Or indeed go in it.

James Taylor Jr