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Why Broken Trust is Bad for Business
Episode 20 • 22nd June 2023 • The Wellbeing Rebellion • Ngozi Weller & Obehi Alofoje
00:00:00 00:24:57

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In this episode we are going to talk about trust in the workplace. 

Spoiler alert: it’s a two way thing. This means employers need to trust their staff just as much as employees need to trust their boss for a healthy, productive working relationship. 

We are going to look at how employers can build trust with their teams and wider workforce, and the benefits trust can add to your company, particularly around discussing and supporting mental health. We also look at the dangers of neglecting trust, and by proxy your teams’ wellbeing, and what you should do if you feel your staff are taking advantage. 

Another spoiler alert: NOTHING! 

 

Highlights: 

(01:38) When employees don’t trust leaders 

(06:24) It’s not your fault 

(08:24) How to safely exit a company 

(11:10) What to do if you don’t get help 

(13:47) How to bring the best out of your employees 

(16:00) When employees take advantage 

(18:12) Hiding mental health issues 

(20:10) How to build trust with employees 

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Connect with us here:

Website: aurorawellnessgroup.co.uk

LinkedIn: Ngozi

LinkedIn: Obehi


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Transcripts

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Welcome to the wellbeing, rebellion, the

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podcast that's changing workplace cultures for good.

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We're your hosts in Ghazi Wella,

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and obey telephoto.

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Let's get this rebellion started. We talked a lot about

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trust in the episode we did about how you foster

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psychological safety in the workplace. And it came up

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recently, when we attended the D TX conference in Manchester. And

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I was on the panel. And it was a panel on is workforce is

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workplace well being the key to a successful workforce in 2023.

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And it was a great panel was a wonderful event. I did not know

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the DGX. Manchester was the largest tech conference in in

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the north, I think. And it was phenomenal. And I was joined on

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stage by some incredible panelists, there were reps from

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and these are senior bigwigs from Kellogg's from infinity

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works and beauty Bay. And the topic was really relevant and

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the audience. Normally when you do these panels, audiences don't

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ask that many questions. But this time, the audience had a

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lot to talk about workforce wellbeing and whether it's the

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key to the success of the future of work. But one question that

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was really challenging, in fact, there were two. And they were

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from two different perspectives on the same topic. So we I

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thought we should talk about it was this thing about trust? And

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what happens when it breaks? Right? So the question was, for

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one person, what happens when employees don't trust their

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managers and leaders? And then someone else asked about, you

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know, what happens when employees take advantage of the

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organization's generosity in supporting them with their

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mental well being efforts and use it as an excuse to be lazy

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or work shy? So yeah, it was also about how do you go about

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rebuilding trust? So this trust issue is one that people

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understand now that they have to grapple with both individually

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and corporately? And so we thought it was something that

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was worth us talking about? Because at least answering

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the question, because, yeah, when you're on a panel, and

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people have questions to answer it, and then everybody, the

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panel would have to add bits and bobs. But it'd be nice to

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actually just almost like, respond fully. What we would

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normally have said, if we didn't have time restraint, that makes

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sense. So that was, so I think the first question that I wanted

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to, to answer

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is the personal one, about employees who have, who have

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experienced a breach of trust, who've been hurt. So I can't

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even break confidence because I don't know this person's name.

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She had worked for a previous company, had had suffered,

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having told her managers about her mental wellbeing concerns.

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And their response was much less than favorable. I don't know

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what the company was. We didn't know

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anything about that. But clearly it worked in tech. But the words

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he was asking, was that what do you do? What is how can you see

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an employee? What could you have done differently? Because her

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issue was I told them, what was going on with me? And they acted

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like they didn't believe me, I would lie. And what did that

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leave? Where did that leave her basically? So it can interesting

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to ponder, what did the employee do when that happened to them?

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Before the organization? What can you do when an employee

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who's either left or actually doesn't feel the contract the

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manager to your leaders to support them in their time of

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need? Okay, you could have two perspective, one for the

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employee himself, and two, for the organization. When you have

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employees like the saying that they're not happy, or they're

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not listening to openly by their leader and manager. What can you

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do about that?

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Okay, so for an employee, it's a very personal thing, first of

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all, to have the courage to say, I'm really struggling this thing

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is not easy. I know from firsthand experience, I wouldn't

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tell anybody at work because of the fear that they would say,

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well, that's just because you're crap, or that they wouldn't

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believe me, or that it'd be held against me all the things that

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we've talked about previous episodes that stop people from

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coming forward. I didn't tell a single soul. I just didn't show

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up for work when I got signed off. That's it. So the fact that

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if you come across An employee who has had the confidence, or

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is either that desperate courage, the courage Yeah, that

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they have been able to tell you, as a manager, that they're going

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through a difficulty, doesn't know what strength that took,

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it's very, very difficult if you if you do that if you take that

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deep personal risk, and then you're met with either apathy or

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even worse, a lack of belief, if that happens to you, certain

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things will happen. First of all, you will never risk

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exposing yourself like that to that individual or possibly even

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to anyone in that organization ever again. Because you have you

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as the manager has just proven that they're not safe to do so.

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And to, they then will likely not be able to get the help that

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they need. So the problem will exacerbate My advice to you if

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this is you going through this is, first of all well done, for

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telling someone as the kill kidsave for speaking your truth.

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Well done. And I am very sorry that you weren't met with the

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kind of grace and compassion that you should have been, or

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that you weren't given an effective avenue for support and

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help. It is not your fault. likely it is not your fault,

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right? So don't stop being brave. Just find someone who

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just deserves that courage. And if that's not in your workplace,

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find it outside,

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you know, other workloads. I think that's a good point there.

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Also, if it's not your actual manager, because I'd like to

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think if I'm, if I was speaking to her on the side, and two came

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up, it took me one on one on the side, I forgot what are say,

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your manager did not believe you what the next How do you

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escalate it, who's the next person that you could tell? It

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could be another manager from another department, it could be

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the money manager, it could be HR. So just a question of what

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are the procedures and for organization, you should have a

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procedures for this. If a manager is not doing what's

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required, what to can employ you do neck with the next person

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they can talk to, or who that person they can talk to, if

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they're not getting what they require. So that's one. And the

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second thing I would have been asking about access to her EAP

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she's access to mentors, you know what they are, and what

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offers to see, qualify for any of those things. I've been

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coding, let's go and check them out. And if t an encoding her to

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you them based on what you offer it, that do not be afraid to do

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is to consider external support lockdown or coat of dental

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therapy would depend on what's going on firm for them. So that

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they can think about you and only you know the word, you are

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the priority, you come first. So that way you have opportunity to

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think about what you need, what you need for your career, what

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lifestyle, you're looking for all of that stuff and makes it

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about you in a way that you may not have that confidence with

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your manager to discuss it. And clearly, if trust had been

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broken in this way where they don't believe you or think

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you're lying, I wouldn't be trying to encourage them to go

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back and talk to that manager about their future planning.

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That's not something I'd want to include. Because I don't want

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them to feel even more unsafe than the data we say, if a

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company no longer feels right for an individual, right? If

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you've not worked out, this is not the right place for me, I

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don't feel safe here, give or take whatever departments I'm

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going to be, then I'm going to encourage this person who asked

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me to figure out how she can safely exit from this

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organization, people get worse when they're not being supported

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at work, they feel less motivated. Dado is not helpful

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to her or the organization really. So it's in her best

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interest to figure out how you can safely exit from a company

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to somewhere else where she can be more herself and get lost in

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it. But what I will be encoding when that time comes for her to

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leave to be honest, and kind about why is she leaving during

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the exit interview. If they exit interviews, they should be if

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your organization don't have one, you should definitely have

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one for every employee who hides in there notice because that

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will give her opportunity to let the organization know the real

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reason why she left the support she had or didn't have any

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recommendation district to make them no longer her business

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anymore. But I wondered if she does that then say Oh, I got a

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different job. Different pay. I'm gonna be honest about what

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it was that contributed to it. Well, the key thing that I

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always say to Hey Charlie did I And I always said, people who

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have mental health issues or struggles, or whatever it is,

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and physical health issues, they will eventually get well, right?

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Eventually, they'll get well, they'll figure themselves out,

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they'll get treatment, whatever. But they will never forget how

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you treated them, how you supported them. And if you

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didn't support them appropriately, or well, they

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will actively look for a way to leave. Today already seen what

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you like, if other people have watched them go through this,

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what them struggle, what how their managers responded to

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them, they also know that it's not a place I can trust, either.

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And they will be seeking to leave. Because when people don't

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feel safe in their space, when they attend, they spend a lot of

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energy, trying to figure out how to get themselves safe with me

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constantly working their back all of that stuff. So that's

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what I wanted to, to wrap up that what I would have to say to

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an individual person who is struggling, we get this all the

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time. We're psychologist and coach. So therefore, I will have

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individual people asking for support because their HR isn't

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providing that for the organization. It's not providing

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that they could do exactly the strategy are we getting them to

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do? We wanted to share that with you all?

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Great. So that answers the individuals question about what

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do I do? Because they didn't help me the answer and summaries

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continue to get help pursue that because you deserve. You deserve

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to feel well continue to pursue all avenues available to you for

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help go up if you must go around if you can go external, but get

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the help. But then there's the point of view of the company,

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the company, what does a company do or an organization or a

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leader do if they feel that they're, they are providing that

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kind of level of support, the psychological safety, all of the

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things as it said, but their employees are taking the mick

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and are using their generosity as an excuse not to work or to

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shirk. Now, we get this question a lot less so nowadays, I must

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admit, but in the first few years, people would say but if

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you're doing this, if you're if you're always showing them that

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you care, and you're showing the soft side, then they'll just

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take the mick, which is a very old school approach is a very

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paternalistic approach to how you view the employer employee

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relationship. Yeah, but the truth is, as I said, always,

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always focus your attention where you're going to get the

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most reward. Why would you focus on the tiny fraction of people

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who may take advantage of your mental health support, which

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might be 1%? Even if it's 10%? Why would you take to focus on

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how you can stop that from happening when you should be

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focusing on the bigger prize, the vast majority of people who

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have mental health concerns, under report, they don't access

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help, they don't take time off work. Only a small number of

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people, a tiny fraction of healthy employees will use the

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mental health excuse to stop them from doing work. Right?

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You're not trying to manage the worst performance, you're

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focusing your efforts on how you can bring the best performance

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out of your employees. So if someone brings up their mental

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health issues and concerns, believe them, it is 99% more

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likely that they're going to be telling the truth and a lie.

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Don't assume that it's just an easy cop out. If you can assume

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that they are telling the truth because you've created that

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environment of psychological safety and trust. If you assume

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that they're telling the truth, you have a good relationship,

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then assume that if they tell you that they can't manage their

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performance because of their mental health struggles, that

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they're telling the truth, the two are not mutually exclusive,

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right? Then recognize that this is going to have an impact not

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just on them, but on the wider team. You're going to have to do

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something to manage it. You can't just do it. They're there

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as the show Have you have you thought about calling the EP,

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you're gonna have to make sure this person gets help as quickly

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and effectively as possible because whilst They are not at

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their best, they are going to be underperforming. And that's what

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we call them well being black hole, one person is affected.

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Everyone sees what your response is to that, it's generally to

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divide the workload amongst the remaining members of staff who

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are fully operational, it will, it will reduce their

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productivity. But if you also, another element of the well

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being black hole is, if you view the way you're treating this

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individual as something that's not private, between you and

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them, it's visible to everybody. Everybody's going to see how you

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respond to employ X, when they came to you with their problem,

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and decide whether or not they can truly, truly trust you with

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this. So make sure that you know that you're on show and what it

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whatever you do from that point onward, will either grow or

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erode the trust that you have between yourself and your

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employees

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will not get the unacknowledged. Exactly. To be fat. I'm going to

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be very honest, when I hear this question, we hear it a lot, who

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says what do you do when employees are taking advantage?

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I know for a fact that your managers have not been trained,

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I know that for a fact, I can almost set the clock on it. In

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other words, there is no way a fully transformational train

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manager would assume that if they did, because this person

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already had history of mid case, you're looking at about one

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content about one person or two people. When if you be concerned

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about the majority of people who do their work and want to do

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well. So they didn't want it to something comes up because they

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don't know how to train them. They assume that if someone even

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had mental health issue, that is an excuse to an opportunity to

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execute poor performance. It's not really it's possible to

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support somebody with mental health, at the same time

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performance manage them, because performance management isn't a

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punitive exercise, I think the idea we think it is. So this is

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why it's always clear to me, when managers say that the tools

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are going to take the player to because they think saying I'm

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not I got mental health issue and giving you carte blanche to

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not do your work or show up. That's not true at all. You can

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learn how to do boat, you can learn how to be empathetic to

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someone's mental health, make sure to get treatment, and make

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sure that you have at the manager agreed that scope of

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work that this person is going to be doing based on their work

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going on with them based on whether or not they're getting

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treatment or not getting treatment based on what they've

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agreed with the team and how the team is going to help out. This

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is very clear to me when someone said somebody taking the pill

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just for taking the pill state that they haven't been trained

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properly. So if you get I'd hate to get managers coming to you

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saying that, Oh my god, I think the people are ordered mental

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health issues causing issues. People are just not wanting to

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work. You know, you have a training problem. Indicator. You

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know what you think about that?

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Me and my damn ADHD I can't remember the really great point

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that you've you just made, which was you were saying that if

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people come to you saying that, Oh, yeah, all this mental health

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stuff is there they're taking the piss. One reason might be

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because people do often think like, I guess I am talking about

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the old school. They think well, you know, bloody out there was

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no mental health before now everybody's off sick. Sandra's

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obviously, that's the well being black hole. So even if they're

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saying, you know, it was one person on the team now it's 10.

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It's ridiculous. Oh my gosh, it might be because it's the well

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being black hole, which is, like I said, the impact the knock on

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impact of one person's illness or productive incapacity on

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everybody else, which increases their own stress levels. Or it

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might be because you're doing such a good job creating

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psychological safety, that people who are hiding it before

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are now able to speak up about the fact that they're

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struggling, and they need support. And it might be short

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term pain for a very, very much bigger long term gain. But yet

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people don't take the piss with telling you that they're going

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through mental ill health. And if you've created a truly open

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culture based on trust, based on mutual respect, based on an

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adult adult relationship, you'll know when they're taking the

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piss simple, but then how can you tell OB if your employees

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don't trust their leaders? So the people who are listening are

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good audience are in fact, in HR or in senior management? How do

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you know if you haven't got a good level of trust between your

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managers and their staff?

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Yeah, I'm gonna say first and it behavior so what are people

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doing? What are you seeing? I mean, we'll talk about country

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office now, right? So two, three days a week people are doing

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that. All of a sudden, people are often uncomfortable coming

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back into the office just started doing it. And finally

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suddenly or not, that might be one, the gossip by the

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watercooler what's happening when people say in when people

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go off sick, what? What is the? What are they saying about them

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after they've been sick, right? When to when they've been off

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sick for free to help your organization to send flowers and

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cart when someone's off for mental health care nothing, why

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the person come back and look like we had leprosy. That's why

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the left is the weirdest feeling. So those are the

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example your toes you we don't trust, you go out of the office

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and be ill for physical health, but not mental health is to what

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one in that. One thing I would say, if you also have complaint

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include complaint, so gone from like a case of that lady saying

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that the manager didn't believe her, then she might have got

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escalated it to HR to say, Listen, I've got this thing, and

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my manager wouldn't help. If you're getting more that more

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complaint of the same manager, maybe the same department that

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gives you an indicator as well. And also your surveys. So if you

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do post obeys, and frankly, to be fair, if your organization is

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one that it already, people want to audit trust issue, you may

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not get a clear picture if you send a survey, but at least the

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back and do nothing. So send a survey, make those anonymous,

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right? And ask very specific question about trust and whether

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or not I talked to my manager to support me, I can escalate

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things, if I have issues, I'm actively looking to leave the

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organization, Mike, you can ask very specific questions that

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anonymous could have people can tell you what you need to know.

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So that's kind of ideal in terms of behavioral or something that

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you're gonna have to see or hear. But I for what one is

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feeling inside, you can't possibly or less to ask them.

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So to round up, assume your employees are lying to you, when

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they say they need help. Assume you do need to continue to build

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on the psychological safety that exists within your teams and

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your organization. Because you genuinely always do assume that

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your managers need to continually learn how to be

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better people, managers in terms of creating and cultivating

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trust between their employees and, and assume that they don't

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just know this stuff by osmosis, but they need your support

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through training and education. If that trust is broken, it

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takes a long time to restore it, it's gonna take more walking the

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walk and talking the talk, right?

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Yeah, I think once the truck is broken in organization, it would

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have a knock on effect from things on lower engagement, high

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turnover, reduced innovation, it just so you have to be prepared

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to allow time for that to happen. Okay. And for one of the

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questions that actually we didn't talk about it, one with

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what happened when someone has come from a different

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organization. So they the last organization wasn't quite up to

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par, they didn't trust them to come into your organization

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having some level of lack of trust, because you're not sure

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like based on past experiences, which is why is it important

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when new people join your team, you need to be able to share

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with them about what you're doing, how you're helping to

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build trust, how they can come to who they can go to talk to

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about thing, just to help them to let them have that baggage

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that you might have come with from another organization to be

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able to let them know, let that get that light, load lighter. So

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that way, they can start to form relationship with a new team,

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new manager, and don't bring old baggage into a new organization.

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But that's the reason why we think it's important that worker

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safety because that account for new people joining your

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organizations or teams.

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To round off, I'm gonna end this episode with a quote, because

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everything we've talked about reminded me of my favorite

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American author Maya Angelou. And that famous quote that she

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had, I've learned that people will forget what you said,

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people will forget what you did. But people will never forget how

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you made them feel. loved that. Yeah, that's what it's about.

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All right. Thank you. We'll see you next time next time. Thanks

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for listening to this episode of The wellbeing rebellion.

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If you liked what you just heard, please share it with your

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colleagues. Follow us on LinkedIn. The link could be in

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the show notes and genuinely show us some love.

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We want to build a whole army of fellow rebels who want to create

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positive workplaces for everyone. Will you join the

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