Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 26 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P-Soupers - it's a special one this week - over the Summer, me and producer Emma experimented with a couple of live recordings, and our first courageous participant was Dr Sarah Swan - a verified rock chick who has written an extraordinary book called, "Coping with Breast Cancer, how to navigate the emotional impact throughout your journey". It's based upon Sarah's lived experience and her expertise as a clinical psychologist, particularly in the application of ACT.

So in this episode you'll hear how Sarah first got into psychology, the trials of getting onto the clinical training to the point when she was about to give up, how she discovered ACT and then the life-changing, devastating experience, when Sarah was diagnosed with breast cancer. You'll hear my review of the book, Sarah talking about the writing process and how she kept going when she could barely see the screen through the tears. This truly is an extraordinary conversation, you'll also hear Sarah read an extract from the book and we finish off with her takeaways for those in workplace settings - as well as her song choice.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about Unlocking Workplace Potential with expert perspectives from Contextual Behavioural Science.

Another first for Season 5 is that I'm adding a transcript, wherever possible. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes, keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• Read more about the book and buy directly from the publisher - Sequoia Books
• Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn

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Final pod recording

[00:00:07] Sarah: I was lying awake one night.

[00:00:09] Sarah: Just a day or so after my diagnosis and unable to sleep with all of this stuff going around in my head. And never have really been a writer before I just had this urge to get up and, and write and I, thought that that. Might help. And I don't know how long I was sat at my computer for at 2am in the morning, but it just seemed to kind of flow out of me.

[00:00:55] Pay supers. It's a special one this week. Over the summer, me and producer Emma experimented with a couple of live recordings and our first courageous participant with Dr. Sarah Swan.

[00:01:16] It's based upon Sarah's lived experience and her expertise as a clinical psychologist. Particularly in the application of act.

[00:01:40] You'll hear my review of the book. Zara talking about the writing process and how she kept going when she could barely see the screen through the tears.

[00:02:46] And I'm so excited to have the opportunity to share my experience of delivering act in the workplace with you all.

[00:03:00] D white on LinkedIn said, wow, this just really resonated with me As I'm having similar challenges with my eldest at the moment. Thanks so much for sharing, Donna May Linton on Facebook said great finale to the chat.

[00:03:38] Hear hear Donna May thanks to everyone who listened to shed and rated part three of my chat with Sarah Cassady. your support is what makes the people soup community so special? So please do keep listening and subscribing sharing And letting me know what you think. If you make some noise about the podcast and our guests. Within reach more people were stopped. That could be useful. But [00:04:00] for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to my chat with Dr. Sarah Swan. Recorded before a live virtual audience in August.

[00:04:15] Ross: I'm a little bit giddy, folks. I'm super excited to welcome Dr. Sarah Swan to PeopleSoup. Sarah, it's so nice to see you. A very, very warm welcome.

[00:04:33] Ross: Oh, Sarah, I bet you say that to all the boys.

[00:05:03] Ross: Just to share with the, the viewers and the listeners, how amazing you are. so no pressure.

[00:05:32] Ross: And we also know that you're now in independent practice at the SWAN consultancy, offering psychological therapy to adults with a range of mental health issues, and also working with business and organizations to support employee well being. We also know, as well as being an author, of course, that you've been on the board of directors of the Association of Clinical Psychologists, UK, and you continue to support them in a consultancy role.

[00:05:57] Section 1: Background - School

[00:06:05] Sarah: Oh, gosh, it's a long time ago now. I would say I was quite shy as a young girl. and my confidence has, grown exponentially. I think since then, I was always very conscientious and very diligent. partly because I always really worried about getting things wrong and worried about. being told off. so one of my regrets actually in life is giving up ballet. It was something that I really enjoyed and I was quite good at, but I stopped because I was, the teacher was, as a lot of ballet teachers were back then, really kind of strict and used to shout at the girls.

[00:07:02] Sarah: And, uh, so I always felt this kind of pressure around, you know, doing well enough. and so I think those kind of, worries about, Am I good enough? What do people think of me? I think, for ACT people out there, they've continued to be my passengers on the bus that, I have traveling alongside me.

[00:07:59] Sarah: [00:08:00] I was also a fan of Kids from Fame too, but no,

[00:08:04] Section 2: Interest in Psychology

[00:08:26] Sarah: I think I was unsure when I went to uni what I wanted to, to do. So I did a behavioral science degree, which was really a mixture of.

[00:09:08] Sarah: And so that started to open my eyes to psychology in the real world, which. definitely fits for me. I need to see how things work in the real world rather than being just an academic. although having said that people who know me will know that I'm a big fan of rock music.

[00:09:46] Sarah: but it suddenly made me think, gosh, I remember being totally, absorbed by this, video and really kind of curious about this whole, Experience. And so I wondered if that was the kind of the beginnings of my [00:10:00] interest in trauma and working with people who've been through very difficult life experiences.

[00:10:29] Sarah: So I think that came in the final year of university, but I had no idea how difficult it was to get onto clinical training.

[00:11:02] Sarah: so I managed to get that assistant psychologist post. that, enabled me to kind of start that clinical process. And I'd, done my, research project, um, for my undergrad, based in the hospital. So I was researching, the impact of lack of stimulation on behavior because I was so struck by.

[00:11:42] Sarah: So that's what I did my, research on. and then after I did that, assistant post for a year, I spent the next few years kind of having knockbacks from clinical training. So having to apply over and over again, and just trying to get more and more experience to improve my CV. And [00:12:00] actually, I think, after four years I decided okay if I don't get on this year, I'm going to do something different, and I decided I was going to do occupational psychology, and I didn't get on that year and I got myself a place on a Occ Psych Masters, and I had a part time job set up that would enable me to be able to afford to do it.

[00:13:04] Ross: Wow, that's lovely. Thank you so much for setting that out for us. It's, great to hear what I'm getting from you with the sort of tenacity.

[00:13:33] Sarah: well, I think around that time when I was doing the assistant posts, I worked, with a woman called, Janet Broche, who, really became my mentor. we are still friends to this day, but she, I think she was quite pivotal in helping me too you know, keep going and, to really develop my, confidence in my abilities, actually. So I think that was really important. And then, years later, I was working in a drug and alcohol service, after [00:14:00] qualifying and I'd worked my way up to consultant grade there. And the trust that I was working for lost the tender and it was won by, a different NHS trust And, their model didn't include psychology. So it meant that, myself and my, um, I think I had three people in the team then, had to, obviously find jobs elsewhere, but I was really really fortunate in that at the time I needed to move across one of the other consultants was retiring.

[00:14:56] Sarah: And that became another point to reflect. on, what work meant to me, what I was getting from work, what, what were the downsides of work and actually what might be a different way of, me working and finding more fulfillment from work. And that's where my private practice started to develop from.

[00:15:16] Ross: Thank you so much for being so open and role modeling a bit about your career, because I love to ask my guests this because it's never a linear thing. There's always twists and turns and pivots and people who influence you and, things that happen like putting on another Clin Psych course and invite you to join.

[00:15:56] Sarah: Yeah, so just getting as much experience, different experience that [00:16:00] you can that's relevant to clinical psychology, um, being prepared for the rejections. I mean, they have expanded the courses hugely, and I think there's a plan to continue. to expand clinical psychology, which is great from my perspective. but, you know, there are a lot of people that do undergrad degrees. So, there's still going to be a lot of competition. I think from, from my story, what I would say is be considering a plan B as well, alongside, your plan A.

[00:16:50] Sarah: And that's something I try not to take for granted, meaning.

[00:17:06] Section 4: ACT;

[00:17:16] Sarah: yeah. So, um, we met when, when you were doing some training, um, when I was working in slam and, uh, it was around Using ACT to help people in the workforce, wasn't it?

[00:17:39] Ross: And we were in a, what I might call with the greatest of respect a typical NHS room that was either too hot or too cold. but it was a great group of people. And I remember, um, you very kindly offered me and Paul a lift back to the nearest station and we started to chat then you were telling me a bit about it.

[00:18:15] Ross: And I was in the fabulous venue of the museum.

[00:18:22] Sarah: I'm really glad that they've continued to, to, to take that model forwards. Because I, I left not long after. We did that training, I think. So I never got to see the rollout of it.

[00:18:57] Sarah: And it really helping me realize much I'd focused on work, to the expense of some of my other values in life, and whilst there was a lot that was outside of my control, there were things that I could do to redress that balance.

[00:19:56] Ross: And by the way, my dad has received my hard copy. So [00:20:00] he's slightly confused and also delighted once I've explained. So I look forward to holding that in my hands as well.

[00:20:08] Ross: But I'd like to share with everyone my review of the book, if I may. So in reading this book, I've discovered many things. I already knew that Sarah is a highly experienced and skilled clinical psychologist, as well as being a wife, a mother, a daughter, a sister, and a friend.

[00:20:50] Ross: Sarah has skillfully combined a devastating life experience with evidence based behavioral science to write a book that truly brings to life Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and makes it useful, accessible, and practical guide. Bravo, from the bottom of my heart, Sarah. Absolutely. Hats off.

[00:21:10] Sarah: Thank you. I was so touched to receive, that. I think I replied to you and said I had tears rolling down my face. Yeah,

[00:21:24] Section 5: The Book - Background Emma to split audio

[00:21:35] Ross: Something that came to you in a flash? Combining act with your lived experience or was it a slow burn that kind of just kept niggling,

[00:21:55] POSS INTRO

[00:22:21] Sarah: And I got to the end of kind of writing about what had happened so far, and suddenly thought, Oh, this could be a book. And I even typed that at the end of what I'd written. And I looked back on, on what I'd written and, I started to see the ACT skills that were coming in that I was using.

[00:23:10] Sarah: But actually, I read it back and went, actually, that's all right. And, uh, that's formed a chunk of the diagnosis chapter. so the idea continued to grow. And I was working with ACP UK, as you said earlier, and, they partnered with, Sequoia Books. And, then we were sort of brainstorming ideas.

[00:23:50] Emma to split audio

[00:23:51] Sarah: So all of a sudden it was like, Oh, okay, I'm doing this now.

[00:24:09] Sarah: absolutely.

[00:24:10] Ross: Wow. And forgive me if this seems just like an obvious question, but why, why did you think ACT would be a useful sort of combo?

[00:24:21] Sarah: Well, as I say, you know, I just found that I've got training in lots of different psychological models, but that seemed to be where I was, coming back to, I think the medical treatment I received was absolutely amazing all through the NHS and through COVID as well it was absolutely faultless. but I found that emotional support a lot. Somewhat lacking. and, was just reflecting on, act in its way that it normalizes human emotions.

[00:25:12] Sarah: So having these kind of thoughts were really alien to me. and of course there were times when, I didn't manage that stepping back and I did get really caught up in them. so, yeah, I just thought if I could share some of those skills and how to recognize What your mind's telling you and step back from that, take a different approach to them.

[00:25:41] Ross: Wow, you give, you give me goosebumps. And another thing I now want to add to my review is too late. But it's, the way you unpack this of people in such an open way and encourage them to.

[00:26:14] Section 7: Structure of the Book

[00:26:39] Sarah: No, I did pretty much write it in that order. I think I'm quite a structured, logical person. And so kind of going through was the kind of chronological order for me. Not everyone might follow that treatment pathway, some people. might have surgery say after other medical treatments, but yeah, for me, that's how, I wrote in the kind of stages that I went through and maybe that's also something about how I tried to approach it when I was going through the treatment is that, I knew I had months of treatment ahead of me. I knew I had lots of different types of treatment ahead of me and that was really scary, but I just had to focus on what I was.

[00:27:36] Sarah: so yeah, it seemed to come together relatively easily.

[00:27:52] Sarah: Yeah, no, it definitely was. I mean it was emotional at times there were sections that, you know, I could barely see the [00:28:00] screen when I was writing because of the tears. then, you know, I'd read it. back to edit it and the tears would come again, but eventually I got to be able to read it without the tears coming. So, it was, it was definitely helpful.

[00:28:20] Sarah: Yeah, I mean, when I was having those moments to begin with, definitely, and there were definitely times when I avoided writing because I knew I was going to have to write about a different difficult point in that journey.

[00:28:54] Emma to split audio here

[00:29:17] Ross: Wow thank you. Now Sarah, is there, is there a passage you'd be willing to share with us from the book, just to give folks, if they haven't come across it, just an idea of, your style, I guess.

[00:29:34] Sarah: Um, so just little bit of background. So I'd gone to the hospital having noticed something, but not being particularly. concerned, I thought it would, it would be nothing. I felt quite nervous about this bit. So bear with me.

[00:30:11] Sarah: Oh, that's all I could manage to say, and I took a few sips of my almond milk latte that I'd brought along in a thermos mug. This helped me to ground in that moment, having become aware that I was suddenly felt disconnected from my body and the situation. I was observing the scene from above, witnessing myself sitting with the doctor, not feeling present in my own body.

[00:30:56] Sarah: Are you okay? Bring someone with you for the next appointment, the doctor said. Okay, I said, and the nurse showed me out. You can have a seat in the waiting room for a few minutes if you like, she said. But I wanted to be away from staring eyes. I wondered if I had the look of someone who's just been told they have cancer, whatever that looks like. I managed to find a seat in a quiet corridor and just sat for a few minutes taking deep breaths and just observing what was going through my mind. A few tears trickled down my face. But I knew I had to keep it together in order to drive home. Somehow I made it to the car, realizing that I'd be getting a parking ticket and a post as I'd exceeded the parking time in Tesco.

[00:32:08] Ross: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Any, any more words from me? seem redundant. So I'll let your words speak for themselves. Thank you so much for, sharing that with us and giving us a flavor of, the vulnerability with which this book is written. Amazing.

[00:32:25] Ross: So I saw a video of you unpacking the hard copies and I understand there's a, story behind the cover

[00:32:46] Sarah: But once I got my diagnosis, people kept saying, you need to speak to Caroline, because Caroline had been, a cancer sufferer for some years already. She never had breast cancer, but she had several other types of cancer. And so I approached her, not knowing anybody else who had gone through this. And she was so so kind in her support.

[00:33:28] Ross: Well, thank you.

[00:33:44] Sarah: Yes, gosh, a pioneer. I've never considered myself that.

[00:34:14] Sarah: So yeah, I'm now the series editor for, um, at the moment, nine books, coming out on a range of topics. the, the next one is Coping with Trauma, and I've had the pleasure of reading it, and it's amazing. And it's really going to help so many people.

[00:35:02] Ross: yeah, it sounds like you've got quite a community there supporting each other, which is tremendous.

[00:35:08] Ross: Now you know, Sarah, that we are a work psychology podcast, and obviously people in the workplace experience breast cancer, so I just thought we'd have a couple of questions just about... Any advice you could give, perhaps someone who's been diagnosed and considering how to tell their workplace, their boss or their colleagues, anything you'd say to them?

[00:35:51] Sarah: So I did have to, to tell work. obviously depending on what treatment you're going through, um, will depend on how visible it's gonna be [00:36:00] to others. so that's maybe something to consider as well as talking to your medical team about what the likely impact will be of your treatment on work. and I think just trying to.

[00:36:37] Ross: Lovely, thank you. And then from the other perspective, the boss or the colleague, and they know that someone's had a diagnosis or is having treatment, I've seen people make a royal hash of these conversations, either just completely avoiding it or completely avoiding the person or just making a right pig's ear of it. any tips for someone who's feeling that sort of fear of saying the wrong thing?

[00:37:15] Sarah: I think also don't make assumptions about what's going to be the right thing for the person. Um, actually I did have my own experience of this before my diagnosis that one of my team got breast cancer and I was, I was kind of really shocked that she just didn't want to be signed off for the whole time and, you know, not think about work at all.

[00:37:35] Sarah: But once I got my own diagnosis, I realized actually how important work was in kind of keeping me well and keeping some sense of normality. And so I think, as a, as a boss or a colleague, just don't make assumptions about what might be right for, the person in front of you. and yeah, just being as flexible as you can with how you can adapt work to enable the person to work if that's what they want to do to, you know, [00:38:00] to find a way that makes work possible through the treatment.

[00:38:16] Spoonspotential

[00:38:37] Sarah: This is such a tricky one, because as I said earlier, I love my music, there's so much music that's meaningful to me, but I've gone with a current, I think it's their current single, so Nothing But Thieves, a song called Overcome, so it's Really upbeat. And whenever I feel like whenever I hear it, I feel like dancing.

[00:39:12] Sarah: and we, we don't always get all that we want, but we redefine the pain to something more. And, we shall overcome as we've done before.

[00:39:33] Ross: So Sarah, thank you for producing such a work of significance to support other human beings, your expertise and your vulnerability will resonate and serve many.

[00:39:50] Sarah: Oh, well, thank you so much, Ross, for, for, hosting this today. it's been a kind of scary process, but, um, actually a really enjoyable one. And, [00:40:00] um, I'm really touched by everyone's comments. so yeah, thank you to everyone for making, the time to, to come today out of your busy days.

[00:40:19] That said folks Sarah's episode in the back. Thanks so much to Sarah for her open and powerful reflections. And for putting this book out there in the world. I know it will be so useful to so many. Please have a think about people in your life who might appreciate this book. Point them to this episode or directly to the book.

[00:40:49] Pea soup, as we love to get your reviews and you can post them directly on the socials or even on WhatsApp where that modern, all the details are in the show notes for this episode.

[00:41:18] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:41:54] Ross: chat. Well, I think it did. I think, crikey, Sarah, I think you're a natural[00:42:00]