Zach Stone’s life arc runs from teenage “knucklehead” to crisis negotiator, trauma-informed facilitator, and head-of-product for thirty health-ed dev teams. In this rich, funny, and occasionally hair-raising conversation we drill down into the how of navigating chaos — on a subway platform, in a corporate boardroom, and inside your own nervous system.

Trigger warning: there's a conversation about suicide at about 15 minutes into the episode. Skip to minute 17 if you want to avoid this section.

Here's a tasting menu of our conversation:

Gang manuals & purple binders – How a Quaker-adjacent conflict resolution course turned a 15-year-old troublemaker into a group dynamics geek.

From union hall to board hall – Lessons learned refereeing SEPTA labor fights and why the same “rubber-and-glue” listening works on Zoom stand-ups.

OARS in rough water – Using Motivational Interviewing (Open questions, Affirmations, Reflections, Summaries) to defuse rage, whether from a bus driver or the voice in your own head.

Simulated danger, real breakthroughs – How well-designed role-plays can heal trauma if you hold the container (and what happens when a participant suddenly starts to undress).

Signs you’re in a chaotic system – Chronic absenteeism, cortisol tummy, “my work doesn’t matter” syndrome, and 70% burnout in tech.

Habit > culture – A shout-out to Paul Gibbons, Prochaska & DiClemente, and the myth of top-down culture change.

Martial arts as somatic therapy – TaeKwonDo to Muay Thai to boxing; what Zach saw when veterans laid down their canes and kids in shelters stopped fighting.

Virtual heartbreak – Coaching a Kharkiv dev team while missiles shook their bomb shelter.

Chaos surfing 101 – Why you don’t control chaos, you ride it; plus simple team-level practices to build collective resilience.

Takeaways

Name the elephant first. Start every workshop by voicing the resistance in the room; it evaporates faster than you’d think.

Watch for survival mode. Tight shoulders, skipped meals, rolling eyes? Slow down before you roll out another initiative.

Move the meat-sack. Five minutes of mindful movement (shadow-boxing, Tai-Chi, hallway laps) resets the neuro-chemistry better than another latte.

Change habits, not slogans. Draft tiny incentives that make the preferred behavior the easy behavior; culture follows.

Links & Resources

Zach on LinkedIn – the easiest place to connect and geek out about behavioral science.

Red Kite Project – trauma-informed organizational change (Charlotte DiBartolomeo).

AFSC Help Increase the Peace curriculum

Books

Peter Levine – Waking the Tiger

Bessel van der Kolk – The Body Keeps the Score

Paul Gibbons – The Science of Organizational Change

Today, we're diving deep into the dynamics of human relationships.

2

We're to be talking about conflict, extreme conflict, light conflict, everyday conflict.

3

We're going to be talking about teamwork, about chaos, about systems theory and about how

to make the world a better place by being ourselves and by developing skills and

4

capacities to make us more influential, more peaceful and more engaged in our world.

5

I hope you really enjoy it.

6

Without further ado.

7

Zach Stone, welcome to the Plant Yourself podcast.

8

Hi, thank you for having me.

9

It's a pleasure to be here.

10

Yeah, we met just over LinkedIn messages a couple of weeks, three weeks ago, a month ago,

and we kind of realized that we think a lot of the same types of things.

11

Yeah, I was listening to your podcast with Dr.

12

Boyatzis, I believe, and uh it really struck me the conversation you were having about

change.

13

And I thought, yeah, these guys get it.

14

And this is a really cool conversation that I'm getting a lot of value out of.

15

And so I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I appreciated what you were

getting into, because I think it's a part of the change conversation that is often

16

neglected sometimes in the org dev business change world.

17

And so yeah, really, that was really cool stuff.

18

Yeah, and as we communicated, you kept on saying more and more interesting things until I

couldn't keep them to myself.

19

So here we are.

20

um I guess let's start by just you introducing yourself and kind of giving us context for

what you do and where and why and then we can go from there.

21

Yeah, well thanks.

22

um So I originally got started in 1999.

23

I uh was a younger, younger gentleman and I was a teenager, I was getting into trouble and

my mom said, you gotta do something of value with your time.

24

You're kind of a knucklehead.

25

I think that you would like this training program that's happening in DC.

26

The American Friends Service Committee is teaching youth and teenagers how to facilitate

groups.

27

and teaching them about conflict transformation.

28

It's this thing called the Help Increase the Peace Program.

29

And I actually have the manual over here.

30

It's uh this big purple manual that I've had since the 90s.

31

uh yeah, the Empowering Youth Through Conflict Resolution and Community Building.

32

And they taught us the theory of group dynamics.

33

And I was just getting into high school at this time.

34

And so I went and I got trained and there were people in there that were formerly

incarcerated and you had gang members, former gang members who were then taking this type

35

of information and working with uh even younger gang members to try to do recidivism work

and get people not to go back to prison.

36

And I started working as a junior facilitator, uh working with some of these folks with

kids who were in and out of jail and adults who were, we started doing victim offender

37

conferencing where the victim sits down with the offender.

38

And I trained under my mom who was a...

39

I was a gang violence interventionist and a group facilitator for a number of years before

starting to work with some really awesomely talented people out of the School for

40

International Training up in Vermont, who were also cadre uh of uh peers at that time.

41

And I fell in love with group dynamics.

42

And it sounds silly because you're a high schooler, but it was one of those things where

being in circle with people made me feel fulfilled.

43

It made me, I think I...

44

My mom tells this story where I turned to her and I was like 15 and I said, wow, I feel

full after a group facilitation.

45

And it's something that stuck with me.

46

And so I got into behavioral science.

47

I was really fascinated by how people change, how they interact in groups.

48

Went to Drexel for behavioral science and counseling.

49

And then I got into uh business development and started doing change management work as a

consultant for a number of years and eventually started my own company.

50

And then moved on from that and it's been kind of a wild journey Moving into like software

development and other ways that behavioral change can help businesses improve and evolve

51

and so that's my my long story in a nutshell

52

Wow, wow.

53

did you grow up Quaker or in the Quaker community?

54

Well, I grew up Unitarian Universalist, so we were Quaker adjacent.

55

And so, you know, think my mom knew of those folks and was like, yeah, you do well with

them.

56

Go hang out with them for a little bit.

57

It'll straighten you out.

58

I don't know if you know this, but I taught at a friend's school for 10 years.

59

So I'm very familiar with AFSC.

60

Yeah, yeah, they're a good group of folks.

61

And I think the mentality of their group really shaped how I interact doing group

facilitation.

62

That sort of, uh yeah, that egalitarian mentality is a really good way to approach group

work.

63

It's amazing you still have the manual and you still afford it this much, you know,

respect.

64

I use icebreakers from that in corporations that I work with and uh I have somewhat

reluctantly been given the label of like icebreaker king, which is kind of hilarious

65

because I'm using these icebreakers from AFSC and I'll show people the manual but like I'm

using these 90s icebreakers that were used with you know, gang members to work in a

66

corporate setting and it works.

67

mean, it's people are people wherever you go.

68

Yeah, I'm remembering one of the one of the uh resources that I had.

69

Well, first of all, the two books of like the what they call those games, new games, the

new games manual.

70

And then then I got this card deck.

71

I think we paid a huge amount of money for like 300 or 400 index cards of activities.

72

It was called Abrus, like something like games of.

73

Yeah, I think we.

74

out a lot of cool resources, and it's stuff that you can kind of use anywhere.

75

Yeah.

76

So I'm real curious about you at 15 being, as you described, a kind of troublemaker

knucklehead and then discovering something in a group that filled you in a way that I'm

77

guessing hadn't before.

78

What was it, do you think?

79

Um, you know, that is a great question.

80

I think there was this sense of connectedness that I felt working with people.

81

There was a sense of competency that I felt of sort of like, you know, I was charismatic

at that age and I really was able to connect with people pretty easily.

82

And, you know, you're using that stuff at high school to get free drinks at the mall.

83

You're not using that stuff, like, to do good in your community.

84

And so...

85

getting the chance to learn these skills and then using my ability to connect with others

to help people kind of self-reflect, to think about like, is violence the most effective

86

path for me?

87

uh Who do I want to be?

88

Who do I want to grow into?

89

Being able to facilitate those conversations uh with people felt like I was doing

something really good with my interpersonal skills.

90

And that felt really great.

91

Wow, wow, it's almost like you lucked into like your use for a superpower that like the

way you describe being charismatic in the wrong setting is a horrible thing, right?

92

Can be, yeah, I mean, I think my mom uh had, has a lot of foresight and was like, you

know, this will be good for you, you'll like it.

93

And she was right.

94

And then it ended up really becoming my career.

95

uh And so, uh you know, it one of those things where I think at that age, I was like, I

wanna own a nightclub when I get older.

96

uh You know, I wanna, I wanna, you know, have like a community where people can come

together and connect.

97

And I have that now, but in a very different way from what I thought it was gonna be when

I was younger.

98

So um what did you learn from that time that you are still using that still feels

fundamental?

99

Yeah, okay, that's a great question.

100

ah A lot of things, I think is the easy answer.

101

But to get more specific, uh how people act when they feel disempowered, how you can work

with people when you're in the midst of conflict uh is a really powerful skill set that I

102

use not only in the corporate world, but I use it in my personal relationship with my

wife.

103

And we just had our nine year anniversary yesterday.

104

And uh thank you, thank you.

105

It is uh such a practical skillset to be able to, when someone is angry at you and sort of

yelling at you or frustrated, for you to sit back and be able to remove yourself a little

106

bit and try to get under the surface.

107

uh There was a part of the Help Increase the Peace program that looks at positions versus

needs and how the things people say are their positions.

108

But that's different from what's under the surface for them what's happening where their

needs and their fears and their biases and their traumas uh live and being able to step

109

back in the moment and get under the surface has really served me working with teams

working in with businesses and union negotiations that I got into later working alongside

110

labor unions and transport workers union in Philadelphia and so

111

Yeah, it's a tremendously powerful skill set and those types of skills that American

friends were teaching about really parlayed into the behavioral science work that I got

112

into later in life, understanding things like motivational interviewing, uh understanding

resistance to change, understanding ah how to sort of help shape a group dynamic to be a

113

bit healthier, but a little bit less toxic, create more psychological safety in the

workplace.

114

So I'm really interested in that capacity to have somebody yelling at you and like

shooting anger at you and remaining centered and calm and functional, because I feel like

115

I know everything you know about that.

116

I don't.

117

But I.

118

But that doesn't mean I can do it or that I do do it consistently or that or that like the

kettle doesn't boil over.

119

in me, so I'm wondering about how much of that is innate, how much of that is skill and

how much of that is some sort of capacity building that you had to do or maybe you didn't

120

have to do in order to write like all of us can get triggered.

121

how what's what are the what are the what's the formula or the recipe or the needs to to

do that better than I do?

122

Let's say.

123

Oh, look, I mean, I do get triggered and I do have conflicts.

124

It's not to say that I don't.

125

I'm sure ah my wife would be happy to peek her head in here and say, hey, yes, we have

conflicts.

126

uh For me, it is the combination that you mentioned.

127

Yes, there is some innate, uh I suppose there is some innate uh empathy, but you have it

too.

128

But for me, I think some of the things that helped, uh obviously I went to school for

behavioral science.

129

And Drexel is really cool because they put you through these sort of internship programs.

130

You also have to do a number of, you do simulation labs where they basically bring in

actors and they try to trigger you.

131

They try to stump you.

132

They try to frustrate you and anger you.

133

And you sit with those people and you practice.

134

uh then certainly I think I really was shaped through the fire working with unions in

Philadelphia where I was there to help folks and facilitate conversation.

135

And we were working with SEPTA.

136

the bus and train company there that runs the public transit system in Philly and then I

started doing that across the country and so you're you're you're almost like a

137

third-party intervener coming in hired by management to work with them in the union But

you're you're not unbiased because you're being paid by one group But you are you you are

138

sort of the face that people are seeing for them to put their frustration on you and so it

forced me to get really good at

139

sort of being a vessel, sort of opening up myself and saying, hey, this isn't about you.

140

And if it is about you, you gotta listen first.

141

And I would get heated.

142

I mean, I'd be sitting there in a chair and someone would be threatening me with physical

violence and I'd be like, don't respond.

143

Like, don't respond.

144

This whole group is watching you to see what you're gonna do.

145

Do not, like, this is bait.

146

And in fact, the person that was challenging me was generally hoping that I would respond

in a way that would give them a lot of ammunition.

147

But I knew that if I could,

148

Hold it down and I can respond to them in a way with empathy and compassion and use

usually I was using motivational interviewing I was using oars open-ended questions

149

affirmations reflections and summarizing to just kind of give it back to them So, okay.

150

So if you feel like if I was in your position I was out there on that bus, you know, you

you would have beaten my ass to quote you and they say yeah Yeah, that's exactly right And

151

then they'd sort of like I can't believe he disagreed with me and they'd start to deflate

a little bit and I started to really see over time like wow, this is

152

really damn effective.

153

uh And around the same time, was getting married and I was starting to use this stuff more

and more in my relationship.

154

And that took a long time, because it's easier for me to do it when I'm getting paid.

155

It's a little bit harder when you're not getting paid.

156

And so, yeah, I think it's a mix of things.

157

It is practice, it is learning, it's seeing that it's successful over and over and over

again.

158

And then it's growing up.

159

I'm hitting middle age and my

160

The brashness of my youth is hopefully being slowly eroded a little bit with slightly more

wisdom than I used to have.

161

Yeah, that's one of my main reasons.

162

That's one of my main reasons for trying to eat so healthy.

163

So eventually I make it to maturity.

164

that's a good practice.

165

You gotta eat your veggies.

166

I'm really interested in the stuff that you described from Drexel around these like

because it feels like it was a safe place to feel unsafe things.

167

And I don't think I've had that.

168

I think I've either like been in a classroom learning about it or thrown into a situation

where some part of my perception, like if a guy is threatening me, like some part of my

169

brain has to decide, is this words or is this real?

170

Right.

171

Like I'm really curious about like a process and maybe, you know, I wonder if you what you

learned there is something that.

172

We can do out in the world to help people feel safe, you know, a safe container where they

get to practice feeling unsafe.

173

You absolutely can do that.

174

uh When I was hired by organizations, before I got into the more change management work, I

was doing a lot of crisis intervention, anti-violence work, teaching professionals how to

175

deal with high stress situations.

176

And because I had done some crisis work and the people that I was working with at that

time were former crisis workers, international negotiators, had done work in Bosnia and

177

Rwanda and Israel and Palestine.

178

And so,

179

uh You know what we were doing is we were going into companies and we were kind of

recreating, you know, things from hip and things from, uh you know, the Drexel, the sim

180

labs, and we were bringing that to companies.

181

And so we would sit down with EMTs and uh bus drivers and train conductors and

firefighters and home visitors and nurses and doctors.

182

And we would create environments that were simulated, obviously, but they were meant to

feel unsafe with fake guns and fake knives or with, you know,

183

role plays, very, you know, screaming at people.

184

And I remember one in particular where I kind of learned an interesting lesson.

185

We were, was doing a role play with my co-facilitator and there was a woman in the

training who said, you know, can you role play what it would be like if someone is going,

186

maybe about to commit suicide on the train platform?

187

They were a train conductor, train, worked in the subway.

188

And we said, yeah, sure, we can role play this out.

189

And this was

190

years back and you know sort of before the the sort of idea of trigger warnings came to

the front and we were sort of like yes we can do this and it's a group of professionals

191

there who have seen this before uh and so we figured yeah this is safe and so we we did a

role play that was extremely convincing.

192

ah My co-facilitator really brought the energy um and as we arrived at the end of the role

play I remember this participant bawling and you know they

193

could squeak out, my mother jumped in front of a train and I wished someone had been there

to talk her down and nobody was.

194

And that's why I became, you know, work in the subway.

195

And I was like, oh man, there goes the rest of the afternoon.

196

What did we do to this poor person?

197

How do we, now like, you you're in a corporate training.

198

What do you do?

199

Do you like stop the whole thing?

200

So what we ended up doing was we, you know, we put a hold and said, all right, hold on

everyone.

201

Let's, you know, we're gonna process this.

202

I.

203

talk to the participants, hey, how about we step out a little bit?

204

And I ended up spending much of the afternoon talking with them and working through some

of what they saw and ended up being pretty cathartic, but that could easily have gone in a

205

very different direction.

206

And so, yes, you can run sessions where you simulate this stuff.

207

It's obviously not real life, but you can artificially uh help people reach a level of

simulated arousal or triggering.

208

that they can start to work through some of these things a little bit.

209

And you know, you know this, but I'll say it for others who may not.

210

The brain is both wonderfully complex and simple at the same time.

211

We don't have a full capacity to differentiate between something that's fake that we're

seeing on TV in a movie and something that we're seeing in front of us.

212

Yes, you can say, I know this isn't real, but when you watch a horror movie and it's

particularly intense, people's heart rate still goes up, they still sweat, people have

213

nightmares, some people get really triggered.

214

And so, yeah, you can use role plays in simulated activities very effectively, but you

have to be careful in how you do it.

215

So yes, it's possible, but be ready for some interesting responses and roller coasters.

216

Yeah.

217

And as I think back to the work I've done, you know, a lot of it for the past several

years obviously has been over Zoom before that, you know, Skype or even just phone calls

218

comparing that to in person where there's just a lot more control.

219

And, you know, if I'm if I'm facilitating a particularly intense group experience and

somebody is unable to handle it, they they can walk away and be outside.

220

as opposed to if we're doing it in a Zoom Hollywood Squares and they're gone and nobody

knows where they went and everyone's worried.

221

Yeah, I mean, you know how I'm curious from your side of this, like, do you have a

preference for in-person versus virtual, you know, pros and cons?

222

ah I think they're both great.

223

ah mean, just for my lifestyle, I love being able to to do this and,

224

you know, visit people all over the world in a single day.

225

uh Most of the time, like we'll start on Zoom or something, but after a few sessions,

we're just doing walking coaching.

226

So we get to be outside.

227

And if we're both walking, it kind of feels a little bit like we're walking together.

228

But there's absolutely stuff that has to happen in person.

229

You know, I think we're, you know, in the age of machine learning, it's tempting to forget

that we are meatbags.

230

ah But we're pretty meaty.

231

I am lucky that we can do this virtual thing because I wouldn't get to live in this place

that I love in New Mexico.

232

But there are some moments that I wish that I could be in person with people.

233

I was working with a team that was located in Kharkiv, Ukraine.

234

We were building a mobile application in 2022 and right as we were kind of hitting our

groove as a team, the bomb started falling on their city.

235

And we knew that something was coming because the Russian offensive was kind of pushing in

and they were both incredibly brave and also obviously very scared and concerned for what

236

was coming.

237

And, you know, we're, I remember I was doing a standup session, running a standup when

we're talking about the state of the application and kind of where we're at.

238

And some of the developers were in bomb shelters and the lights are shaking and going off

and you can hear these noises.

239

I remember like my heart breaking when one of the developers said, Hey, I'm really sorry.

240

I have that signal right now.

241

I apologize.

242

And I'm thinking like,

243

you're being bombed and you're running for your life and you're apologizing to me for not

having the best stand up.

244

uh And it was one of those moments where I felt incredibly inadequate as a ah team lead,

as a support, as a behavioralist, feeling like here are these people going through actual

245

war uh and what can I give them through the screen?

246

ah I'd want to be able to connect with them better.

247

And we did find a way through that process, but it was...

248

incredibly trying for me to try to leverage my behavioral science skills uh in a way in

the corporate space in a way I hadn't done in a long time.

249

And so I do, I think about this thing about how effective we are virtually versus being in

person and how the dynamic changes when they can feel you and see you and touch you and

250

kind of have that experience of you right in front of them, of you being with them.

251

ah And so, you know, obviously I wouldn't give up the virtual stuff, but there are moments

when I wish I could reach through the screen.

252

Yeah, yeah.

253

So most of your work is virtual at this point?

254

Yeah, every once in a while I will reconnect up with Red Kite Project, my old firm that I

255

like, you know, fills you back up.

256

But a lot of what I'm doing now is virtual, working with software development teams.

257

I support a department of about 30 teams doing nursing and health education work,

developing those applications and it's awesome.

258

And I miss being with people.

259

So I have a question which comes from a professionally selfish perspective, which is the

work that you and I do around the humanity building work.

260

And we got to sell it to people who are talking about ROI and aren't necessarily on our

wavelength.

261

oh What are the things that the needs that you hear that you then translate into

262

This heart centered, body centered approach that I do can address it.

263

Yeah, what an awesome question.

264

We have had we I'm going to go back to Red Kite Project because it's a little bit easier

for me now.

265

Red Kite Red Kite Project.

266

And that was the that was the group that was doing work with like high stress industries

and kind of bringing behavioral science and trauma informed counseling and uh and civil

267

society building to corporations.

268

And our biggest challenge, especially early on before we developed any sort of reputation,

was

269

how do you sell people on this stuff that a lot of those folks would call, they call it

frou frou, or they would call that fluffy soft skills.

270

uh And I recently did a panel with someone where they said, I don't call that stuff soft

skills, I call it the essential skills of how to navigate your humanity.

271

And I thought that was awesome, because I haven't pitched, I haven't thought of it like

that, and I hadn't pitched it like that.

272

But we learned fairly quickly that you could sell.

273

people on these very essential support services, but you had to frame it in a way that

would be palatable to them.

274

And what that looked like was, you we had partners that were doing research on our

outcomes.

275

And in our first early couple of years, we had a major reduction in absenteeism and a

major reduction in turnover uh and violent incidents amongst the people that were going

276

through our programs.

277

And that sort of language around, hey, when people feel supported, when they feel safe,

278

ah when they are not burned out, when they're able to tap into their healthier habits, you

are seeing less absenteeism, you're seeing less turnover, you have less health insurance

279

claims, you have people getting sick less frequently, they're able to recognize it and

maybe they go out for a day, but they don't keep working and then get sick for two weeks

280

and end up in the hospital.

281

And so that type of preventative care, ah Yale did a study on it and they found that for

companies that invest, for every dollar they invest in wellness programs,

282

there's a $3 return for their employees.

283

that was, years ago, I say that was 2011, I need to go back and look at if that research

has been replicated again.

284

But over the years, I did see as they looked into wellness programs that were science and

evidence-based, that you get great returns from that stuff if you actually implement it.

285

And so using that type of language, we were able to really get the interest of

corporations, organizations.

286

to say, yeah, actually, maybe this behavioral science stuff has some value with our people

and with us as maybe managers.

287

then as the managers had some benefits, the leader said, yeah, actually, we should use

this too.

288

And then the reputation started to grow and the sell became a little bit easier, but that

was the core idea.

289

Gotcha.

290

OK, so you've sold the decision maker.

291

They've accepted your invoice, told you to get started.

292

Now you've got a room full of people.

293

Is there resistance there when you start?

294

It depends.

295

uh So many depends.

296

um If they have heard really good things from their peers, resistance goes down a bit, but

you still will have some resistance.

297

are folks, I mean, you know, you've worked, you've done this for decades.

298

so, you know, sometimes there's someone who wants to feel powerful because they feel

disempowered in their work and in the workspace.

299

And you are a person that they can act that out on.

300

because you are safer than their manager or their boss.

301

You're an extension of them, but you aren't them and you don't have the power they have.

302

And so they can make an example of you.

303

It's a lot harder if you use oars and resistance tools to kind of like, I am rubber, you

are glue type of stuff.

304

It's hard for them to get purchase.

305

And then the people around them are sort of like, well, this is silly.

306

Nothing they're saying is doing anything.

307

And these people are really nice, knock it off.

308

And so there's ways to kind of combat that.

309

But.

310

we would do this thing at the start of the workshops where we would sit down and basically

try to name and own their resistance.

311

We would say, know, hey, we get that this is gonna seem outlandish.

312

We get that you maybe don't wanna be here, that you don't care about this stuff, that, you

know, like who are we to be telling you how to do your job?

313

And just by giving voice to it, uh people would sort of come to this realization of like,

okay, they at least get that I don't like them off the bat.

314

And it was like a little bit easier to get started.

315

And I started doing that with the software teams that I started working with later in my

career, just being like, I get it, who am I to tell you how to do your job?

316

Well, guess what?

317

I'm not here to tell you how to do your job.

318

Let's talk about some of the things that you are frustrated about and let's get that stuff

out on the table.

319

And by naming and owning it and being authentic with people and not towing the corporate

line uh really went a long way to lower resistance and have people kind of welcome you in.

320

Yeah, I first I first encountered that strategy when I met Chris Voss's work, right.

321

The negotiator, he talked about like the uh accusation audit where you think about every

horrible thing they could be thinking.

322

And you say it first.

323

Very cool.

324

Yeah, you know what?

325

I know of him and I've read some of his things, but I haven't heard of the accusation on

it.

326

That's very cool naming to have.

327

So now I can name the naming.

328

Nice.

329

that's fun stuff.

330

So in our in our LinkedIn messaging conversation, you were talking about chaos and that's

something that you think about a lot.

331

So what does that mean?

332

Where do you see chaos in the world?

333

I'm confused.

334

Where don't I see chaos um in the world?

335

The work that I did with Red Kite was focused on uh techniques that they developed for war

zones.

336

After war zones had sort of started to wind down a little bit and how do people rebuild

after there is like literally no structure left.

337

um And we use that stuff very effectively in organizations to revitalize sort of chaotic

leadership and broken structures.

338

you really unfair, lack of trust environments.

339

And it can work in a lot of places.

340

But one of the things I learned from that work um is that chaos is not something you can

control.

341

You surf it.

342

we have lived, many of us, not all of us, but those of us who've been privileged enough to

live through the past couple decades with some level of prosperity,

343

We've been living sort of through an unprecedented time in relation to the rest of

history, where uh in other parts of history, disease and pandemic are fairly rampant.

344

uh There was no real middle class.

345

was rich and poor.

346

uh You didn't have labor laws and protections and practices.

347

You didn't have federal holidays.

348

You didn't have uh health insurance and supports paid for by your taxes.

349

And so there was just a lot of suffering.

350

looking at some of the

351

the things that are happening around the world as we see this rise of uh geopolitical

violence, we see an increase in first time in decades land war in Europe, you're seeing

352

continued genocides.

353

This is an era where yes, those things existed in the past, but our ability to share

information or misinformation is faster than ever before.

354

Our weapons are more dangerous and in many cases unmanned.

355

And so we have this environment of

356

instability that is taking hold ah and it's becoming the new normal.

357

And so we're seeing organizations even just in the news talking about, you know, the

market instability this week of like, hey, we can't make, we can't make budgets, we can't

358

make plans because uh we can't, we can't keep track of what the financial monetary policy

is going to be.

359

It's all over the place.

360

And so even things like the stock market that are considered fairly stable by many

standards,

361

are seeing instability and that's causing businesses to feel like, know, our old way of

doing things just doesn't apply anymore.

362

And uh that awareness that we are sort of in this age of chaos, I think is one that people

need to embrace so that they can not drive themselves crazy.

363

So what is that what is that looking like in maybe some examples in order if someone's

listening to this and they're like, am I in a chaotic organization right now or a chaotic

364

team or a chaotic office?

365

What are some of the signs?

366

Burnout is a good one.

367

Human beings, as we try to respond to a chaotic environment, I said earlier, our brains

are both really beautifully complex and also simple at the same time.

368

We're not really designed to be living in a world of AI and smartphones and social media.

369

And so there's a cognitive overload that happens where people start to just shut off their

brain to self-protect.

370

And that's kind of like being like a robot and powering down.

371

uh Willpower is a finite resource.

372

And so you're using all this willpower to kind of deal with stressors that are popping up.

373

ah You you're being notified every five minutes on social media that something has

happened or in the news.

374

And so we're not used to that.

375

And you might notice that you are really tired, that you are getting sick more often.

376

Maybe you're having more headaches and muscle pain.

377

ah Maybe you are having trouble sleeping.

378

ah Maybe you're experiencing like digested digestion issues, intestinal, like stomach

upset.

379

uh IBS is a very common side effect of high levels of consistent stress.

380

And in fact, we know from research, from the ACE studies, longitudinal studies of impacts

of trauma, that long-term low-level trauma can lead to things like ischemic heart disease,

381

can lead to stomach ulcers.

382

And so there are migraines, there are these long-term effects that people can end up with

from exposure to long-term stress and chaos.

383

So you're gonna experience it in your body first.

384

And then, you know, the psyche uh can follow.

385

uh And there's a mix of both because, you know, how you think is how you feel and how you

feel is how you act.

386

So there's this whole body effect that occurs for people.

387

uh But in the workspace specifically, alongside some of those physical effects, you might

see people feeling like, you know, my work doesn't matter.

388

ah My company, no one, you know, no one cares about this stuff.

389

It's unimportant.

390

Your accomplishments lose meaning.

391

You start to get really disillusioned and antagonistic with your peers.

392

Maybe you start just dropping out of meetings and disengaging.

393

And so there's a number of behaviors that we kind of look for to see where people are

struggling.

394

And we're seeing that happen frequently.

395

And I see that with my peers and colleagues.

396

I see it with myself sometimes and I have to self-correct.

397

But there is this burnout epidemic and there's been some really great studies in the tech

space.

398

And what they found was like almost 70 % of tech workers

399

2021, 2022, 2023 reported high levels of burnout.

400

So yeah, when you're saying that, I'm like, well, that sounds like your average workplace.

401

I thought I was asking a question about this new phenomenon that's suddenly emergent, but

the 70 % disengagement or burnout or stress, that's par for the course.

402

I'm interested in where that doesn't happen.

403

How do you avoid that these days?

404

To a degree, I don't know if we do avoid it entirely.

405

Positive psychology, I remember looking at Seligman's work back in like 2008, nine, 10,

and this idea that you could like inoculate people from trauma.

406

And I'm overly simplifying it, don't, know, Martin Seligman, you know, on crew, come for

me.

407

But they were doing some work with the military around how do you inoculate against trauma

so that people don't become traumatized by their military service.

408

you know, most...

409

Trauma specialists and behavioralists would say that is impossible.

410

You do not inoculate people.

411

What you do is you provide supports on the back end to help that trauma be less prolonged,

to help those effects of burnout stick around not as long as they normally would and help

412

them build resiliency to rebound quicker.

413

uh There are some workplaces that have a really great reputation.

414

I will say to the credit of my organization, I work for a company called Elsevier.

415

uh I mean, I get tremendous amount of PTO and the pace of our work

416

is one that I don't see often.

417

But we are owned by a Dutch parent company.

418

We have a lot of sort of European practices.

419

And I think that that style of working lends itself to a little bit of a healthier culture

than say some of what we see in American workplaces.

420

And so, yeah, it does exist in pockets, but we can't always prevent that.

421

And so we should really focus on the resilience building and mitigation after the

422

Hmm.

423

That's interesting because you grow up in learning about positive psychology, like

Seligman's work is like, know, untouchable as sort of the father of it.

424

And I read a book that had quite an impact on me a few years ago.

425

I think it's called The Quick Fix by Jesse Singel talking about like the actual studies.

426

it was like a shock to me that apparently a lot of positive psychology

427

really was not backed up by research.

428

was just like really good marketing, but know, people who was hearing what they wanted to

hear as opposed to what was actually going to help people.

429

I mean, you nailed it.

430

mean, that's something that I see so often in the organizational development space.

431

uh And don't get me wrong, there is a lot of science backing work in that space and

IOSyche, but there's a tremendous amount of nonsense that exists in there that was used to

432

just sell people on keeping the status quo.

433

And in fact, there is a market.

434

And I think about some of the big consulting firms, not naming any names so I don't get

sued, but there are folk

435

who get paid a lot of money to come in and have the appearance of making change, have the

appearance of doing anything, but they're really just being paid to keep things the same

436

and then lay people off.

437

uh And that's not quite positive psych, but I'm thinking about Paul Gibbons and his work

on change management.

438

He talks about how he kind of got lambasted and attacked by the positive psych crew.

439

And then years later, they came back and realized that, no, he was right on, especially

around...

440

how change happens in organizations, that it's really habit-based, and that you need to be

focused a little bit less on this whole culture change and more like habit change.

441

And that is how we make larger change in organizations, appealing to the heart and the

emotions, the behavior and the habits of people.

442

And you're doing it person by person, team by team.

443

You don't just show up and say, okay, now we're gonna change the culture.

444

That lands like 20 % of the time, more or less.

445

And so we are starting to kind of...

446

dismantle some of our heroes and ideologies that have been around for a while, recognizing

that in the corporate world, some of this stuff was nonsense by design, and we really need

447

to bring a science-based approach.

448

Tell me more about Paul Gibbons.

449

I'm not familiar with his work.

450

He sounds like a very important thinker and practitioner that I should know better.

451

He's a really cool guy and I'll be honest, I'm really just starting to learn more of his

work.

452

uh I've followed some of his change management stuff.

453

I read one of his books a number of years ago and I was really struck by his condemnation

of the idea of culture change.

454

That you can just shift the culture and the way, and it resonated with me because I'd

studied uh the Prochazkan DiClemente's trans theoretical model of change.

455

and understanding that people and organizations, and I think it was Prachaska's wife who

studied how that model can apply to organizations, how change is a process, it's not an

456

event.

457

And those of us who are coaches and work with people, we know this, but you might be

surprised, dear listeners, how many people walk into an organization or leaders in an

458

organization think we're gonna tell people we're changing and we've changed, and that's

it.

459

Paul Gibbons really starts to pull apart that myth that if you want to create change, you

have to change people's habits.

460

That is the most important thing that you can start doing.

461

And you need to create incentives in the system itself that encourage that habit change.

462

So, you you don't just tell people, uh you know, go get vaccinated.

463

You create an environment where there are significant benefits for people who go in and

get their vaccination.

464

That was one example that he used.

465

and they're around eating healthy.

466

You don't just tell people to eat their vegetables.

467

You have to make healthy foods more affordable and more accessible.

468

And you have to set it up in a way that that's much easier for them to get than the junky

stuff.

469

And so those types of incentivized structures and systems are what's needed in

organizations as well to create behavioral change.

470

Just saying you're changing is absurd.

471

And in fact, people do actively push very hard against that versus incrementally slowly

creating incentives for them to change their behavior.

472

Right.

473

mean, I'm hearing sort of elements of both where the culture is really about telling a new

story.

474

Right.

475

piece of this.

476

But em it is one that speaks to the heart.

477

It's not this, em we are changing because it's gonna help our bottom line.

478

It's appealing to the pain points that people have and why, you nailed it, the narrative

of why this is gonna make your life better and why you're gonna, this'll create a happier,

479

healthier environment for you.

480

Things that they actually care about.

481

What I'm thinking is before I ever even got to considering the positive incentives for

change, we had to discover all the disincentives for change that were already locked in

482

from compensation to.

483

You know, just how the competition between biz dev and operations or the competition

between legal and sales or the.

484

Right.

485

there were like every organization.

486

I learned this when I started selling it to organizations that every organization thinks

of winners and losers because almost every organization, people are optimizing for

487

something less than the total joyful success of the whole mission.

488

as long as that's happening, there's always going to be these uh these irrationalities

where it's where everyone wants to do X.

489

But everyone's really incentive to incentive to do Y and Z instead.

490

Yeah, I mean, you nail it.

491

It's funny for as much as we talk about collaboration in the business world, competition

is the de facto, it's the de facto choice for a lot of groups.

492

And I'm sure it's inherent in some of the business ideology and ideas of the market and

just sort of competing against your outside external market competitors, but that comes

493

internal and it can create these very us versus them tribalistic environments that you've

clearly run into.

494

And we would find back in the consultant days that the resistance that we got from people

was very manageable, but the political resistance that we were getting from warring

495

factions inside of organizations was way harder to counter and way harder to deal with,

and often entrenched for decades in some cases.

496

Whereas with a person, you can work with that.

497

You can work with a smaller group of people, but uh warring departments, that's a little

bit harder.

498

Yeah, when one uh group I worked with in the health care space, uh we had these two groups

that were just didn't realize they were being systematically set up to be in opposition.

499

And you do that long enough and they're in different wings of the building or different

floors.

500

And this, you know, this this vision of the enemy just metastasizes.

501

And because

502

because there is an inherent tension, everything then gets filtered through the

confirmation bias of like, what a bunch of assholes, what a bunch of cowboys, how they lie

503

to people.

504

They uh are too timid.

505

so bringing like the work we did ended up like bringing them together and doing kind of

role plays where they kind of played each other's roles.

506

You know.

507

uh

508

It kind of it doesn't take much to to elicit empathy.

509

m No, I mean, you're correct.

510

We would have these situations where you have frontline employees that are uh union, and

then you have managers who may have been union at one time and no longer are.

511

And they were like they'd been fighting a civil war for 30 years.

512

And all it often took was bringing them into a room together and having them uh act out,

talk about scenarios that they experienced and having

513

want the manager to say, I'm really sorry.

514

That sounds incredibly scary to hear it from your position.

515

When I showed up on the scene, I was just trying to follow the protocol.

516

And so I really didn't get what you were going through.

517

uh And then you have the manager sort of tell what they're going through.

518

And a lot of times you'll hear these hardened employees say, wow, I didn't realize your

job was so hard.

519

I didn't realize you were dealing with all this stuff and you don't have the resources you

need to do it.

520

And that understanding that you're talking about that's showing up here.

521

It can be very transformative and it sounds simple and in a lot of ways empathy can be

simple, but we don't have uh structures that encourage us to do that type of exchange,

522

especially in workplaces and in our personal lives even as well.

523

yes, empathy can be such a powerful tool for organizational change and changing narratives

and getting people to change their ideas about these groups that they've come to really

524

dislike.

525

Yeah, the image that came to me, and I think this comes from some Zen koan or wisdom story

from Buddhism about uh the vision.

526

The image is like someone with their head held underwater.

527

Like they don't have they don't have mental space for a lot beyond the next breath of air.

528

And I think there's a lot about our society and a lot about organizations that put people

close to that state of survival being so paramount.

529

that higher emotions, empathy, or even the ones we say we would lionize and want an

organization's creativity, strategy, long term planning, vision that when you are

530

concerned about your next gulp of air, it's almost impossible to touch into these other

things.

531

It was something that we did a lot, was teaching executives about trauma.

532

And not necessarily like, your employees are being traumatized for life, but just this is

what survival mode looks like when people are working under high stress.

533

And right to your point, if all they can focus on is surviving, they're not gonna be

focused on giving great customer service.

534

They're not gonna be focused on having these great interpersonal interactions, because

they're worried about getting stabbed, shot, beat up, uh verbally abused.

535

And so really trying to change that perspective for people.

536

And then for us, before I got into the business work, I wasn't really thinking about uh

executives being under board and shareholder pressure.

537

And some of those execs, they also feel like they're fighting for their life.

538

It's a very different circumstance.

539

And they're not likely to uh attacked in the same way their frontline employee might, but

there is a sense of survival mode that is permeating organizations.

540

that you're referencing here and providing some education on that, even if it's sort of

surface level, can be really helpful to try to normalize and help people understand what's

541

happening in their organizations.

542

And we did it for years and it was, think, one of the things that really stuck.

543

When I came back and met with leaders years after the fact, or I'd see people in Philly on

the street or in places where I was visiting for work, and they would say, yeah, man, that

544

trauma stuff, I started seeing it in my life and I really get how it's happening in our

company.

545

And so just, think education can be really paramount, but it has to be done in a way that

is impactful.

546

And again, leveraging, you know, science and behavioral science.

547

Cause as you know, a lot of corporate training, like I said earlier, very fluffy, not a

lot of use in some of that stuff, but it's a service and they're getting paid to deliver

548

it.

549

And it's a very lucrative field.

550

Yeah.

551

And just to respond to the difference between, a frontline employee who's facing physical

danger and an executive, as you pointed out earlier, our brains can't tell the difference.

552

Right.

553

Like if, you know, if someone criticizes me, I'm working on this.

554

I've been working on it for half a century.

555

But, you know, like when I get criticized, my body goes into physical reactions that are

that only makes sense if I am trying to get away from a predator.

556

Yeah, because you feel under threat.

557

There's nothing my body is doing that's helping me deal with this situation.

558

Yes, I mean, and, you know, we have this wonderful, these wonderful set of coping skills

that are powered by the neurochemicals that flood into our system when we feel under

559

threat, the noradrenaline, the cortisol, the dopamine and serotonin that flood us that are

used to kind of keep us alive and have us not feel pain when we're running out of a

560

burning building or we've got some heavy thing trapped on top of us.

561

That stuff comes floods into us when we're having a fight with a spouse, when we're being

criticized and getting a performance review at work.

562

And so really helpful when you gotta lift a giant heavy rock off of you, or really helpful

when you're carrying someone out of a burning building, not helpful when you are trying to

563

have a conversation with your partner, not helpful when you are trying to receive a

performance evaluation, but your brain doesn't care.

564

So I'm curious, who are your favorite trauma people?

565

The folks who teach and write and advocate and educate.

566

Yeah, so ah I really, I got started with Peter Levine with his book Waking the Tiger.

567

I'm a big fan of that.

568

I've always been into somatic healing.

569

As a young person, I got into martial arts ah and it's been a powerful vehicle for me for

stress relief and sort of dealing with um trauma that pops up in our lives.

570

And then from there, I kind of moved on to Bessel van der Kolk, Dr.

571

Bessel van der Kolk and uh

572

I got to actually speak at his trauma conference on this martial arts program that we were

running for veterans and youth, youth who were in homeless shelters and veterans who oh

573

were also in homeless shelters and had experienced major injuries in the war.

574

And I was really uh fascinated by both of their approaches and how plugged into the body

they both were.

575

well, I do think that tremendous healing happens with cognitive work.

576

There is stuff that gets trapped in our body that we need to work through and it's hard to

do that while sitting in the chair.

577

So yeah, those are two that really stand out to me.

578

Yeah, boy, those are two.

579

It's hard to shoehorn into a boardroom or an auditorium, isn't it?

580

Yeah, but you know, we started doing like physical movement exercises with workers and

then we would kind of explain like at a very high level why it was beneficial.

581

And it was some of the favorite stuff we did.

582

And I remembered like doing an activity that we called River Crossing that got all these

execs up and moving.

583

And they, I think it was the one thing they remembered from the work that we did.

584

And so absolutely, it's hard to bring in and it's hard to sort of concisely pitch that

stuff, but.

585

when people get to act it out and do some of that movement work, uh it can really stay

with them.

586

I mean, I also think in terms of like what it can unleash.

587

Like you talked about someone who got triggered by a simulation of a suit.

588

when things get like, yeah, you and I can have a conversation.

589

But as soon as I'm uncomfortable, you can see me closing up intellectually, you know,

doing all sorts of.

590

But when when when my body's moving and something breaks free, I'm fucked.

591

I don't have that kind of control.

592

you, you know, you have these living, learn moments.

593

We had to really change our approaches over the years.

594

I remember somebody started disrobing in the middle of a movement activity.

595

And that, mean, that was the only time it got that incredibly intense where we had to, you

know, get them out of the room and the space and sort of do some intensive work with them.

596

But that was like a big wake up of like, you know, we've really sanitized this stuff.

597

But it's still, it's so powerful that even though we've really tried to put guardrails

around it, uh you can't control how people are gonna respond to everything.

598

So yes, you have to be incredibly careful.

599

And we've really changed and adjusted some of our approaches over the years because of the

things that we learned and solved.

600

Just how impactful and elicited this stuff can be for people when they haven't had

exposure to it.

601

Yeah.

602

And I think that, you know, when you take away all risk, you also lose a lot of the

upside.

603

Hmm.

604

Yeah, yes, we've seen beautiful catharsis and transformation in these programs.

605

And after I left Red Kite and stopped doing some of that, like, you know, Paladin, Have

Gun, Will Travel consultant work and moving into a specific organization that I've been at

606

for five years, I'm still able to use these things with people.

607

I mean, I think it's the thing that has set me apart in my career is the behavioral

science angle.

608

And so I urge anyone who

609

is wondering like, I use this in the corporate space?

610

I think probably a lot of your guests have proven that yes, you can.

611

And I'm saying it again, not only can you use it, but it is critical in a lot of cases in

today's business world where we are seeing, you know, high levels of burnout, high levels

612

of trauma, high levels of chaos.

613

These are the things that actually work in the face of those things that were designed uh

to handle these moments.

614

That's what this behavioral science counseling work uh was created for.

615

So I'm curious, what was your martial art?

616

I did a bunch over the years.

617

started with Tae Kwon Do as a kid and then I got into Weichu Ru karate.

618

I did Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and boxing has kind of been where I've settled up.

619

Are you a martial artist also?

620

I did a Russian form called Systema for a decade.

621

OK, I'm doing boxing now just because the trainer that I work with likes to punch me.

622

Yeah

623

So so I'm finding it very different, a very different thing to think of a sport as opposed

to, you know, systema is basically no rules.

624

and so I mean, what I'm curious about is like and also thinking about my audience, when

you say you learn sort of healing from a martial art, I don't think people who haven't

625

done it understand the connection between like martial arts.

626

Like you hurt people.

627

What are you talking about?

628

Yeah, it's a, when I was a kid, like I said, I was a bit of a knucklehead and you know,

the facilitation was really helpful.

629

uh But the martial arts was also tremendously impactful to my mental health.

630

Finding a vehicle for me to be able to release energy that felt trapped in my body, uh to

have a level of discipline over my body when I felt like it wasn't mine to control.

631

that that sort of mental part of practicing martial arts can be healing and

transformative.

632

uh And, you know, just kinetic movement and being able to kind of shake up those those

neurochemicals that get kind of trapped within us, being able to shake that stuff up,

633

shake it off and like allow our brain to kind of cycle through it and and be sort of

refreshed with these chemicals that are better, better serving us.

634

uh You know, that that is that can't be understated how powerful that can be.

635

And one of the things that we saw happen working with researchers with our Red Kite Rising

program, working with kids in shelters, they were having events, almost violent events

636

almost every day.

637

And we got to a point where after a number of sessions, they stopped having violent events

for weeks and kids were able to find a level of self-control uh that they didn't feel that

638

they had.

639

And with veterans, we saw folks putting down their canes and

640

being able to step back into their body again, feeling like they had control over it.

641

And so, you know, over time they started to feel like, I don't, you my body isn't capable

of doing this.

642

But as they got into somatic healing work, the cane became a little less important for

them.

643

And that's an extreme example, but it was an incredible one that we saw uh several

veterans not using aids that they were using before.

644

And so I think...

645

There's a lot of ways that martial arts can help people.

646

It doesn't just have to be a tool for hurting, but the one caveat I'll call out is that

there is research that for kids who have a violent history, teaching them striking sports

647

is not as valuable as teaching them grappling or things that are not directly violent.

648

So think Tai Chi, think maybe things like wrestling or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu can be better

for them.

649

But for adults, it's fine to whatever gets you moving.

650

Yeah, the other thing that I've experienced is at least in the schools where I've studied,

I only worked with partners.

651

Right.

652

It was never an opponent.

653

Right.

654

You go spar with your partner and what you're doing is teaching each other and helping

each other.

655

And of course, you're in the middle of a grappling or striking.

656

You can get adrenalized and you can flip your frame.

657

And all of sudden this person is my enemy.

658

and to notice when that happens and to be called out when that happens.

659

Like to me, that was as close as I've come to what you described in Drexel around, you

know, a life, uh a safe situation where unsafe things can be experienced.

660

That's a great example.

661

I mean, it's a perfect example.

662

That self-awareness that you gain about yourself, I think is hard unless you find a way to

simulate that.

663

And martial arts can give you those experiences.

664

So we're coming to the end of the time that I promised I would take of yours.

665

know you are...

666

uh Is it Elsevier?

667

Elsevier?

668

How do you say that?

669

Elsevier.

670

I've been reading, you know, I've written books in the health field, so I have known the

name.

671

I've never heard it said.

672

Elsevier.

673

Is there a way for people that people can follow you or...

674

Like, you know, I usually offer oh my guests to thank them for taking an hour, like, get

business from this.

675

I don't know if that's of interest to you or for RightKite or work on the side or just,

you know, more to share that people could follow you.

676

how would you like to is there an invitation you'd like to offer to the listeners and

viewers?

677

Yeah, well, thank you, Dr.

678

Jacobson for having me on your podcast.

679

This is an awesome experience.

680

I really appreciated the opportunity to get to share a little bit of my mindset and my

experience.

681

So that was a pleasure.

682

People can connect with me on LinkedIn.

683

There's a couple different ways you can reach me, but LinkedIn is a very easy one.

684

then Red Kite, I'm not with them, but I'm still a silent partner.

685

And I connect with them on the work that they're doing.

686

If you're fascinated by this approach of sort of leveraging

687

civil society building, and trauma-informed behavioral science for organizational change

and development.

688

Yeah, hit up Red Kite Project.

689

uh Charlotte DiBartolomeo is an incredible thought leader on organizational change, and

she's a great person.

690

Yeah, Charlotte DiBartolomeo is a mouthful, as she will say.

691

OK, well, I'll put that in the show notes.

692

I'll get the links for you for Red Kite.

693

I'll put in the links to the books to Waking the Tiger and Body Keeps the Score.

694

And I invite people to connect with you on LinkedIn because you got a lot of really

interesting things to say.

695

Thank you.

696

Thank you very much again for having me.

697

This is this is awesome

698

ah Thank you so much.

699

you for the work you've done in the world that you're bringing to uh some of the ah

hardest places that need it the most.

700

ah it's great, great connecting with you.

701

And I'm so happy to have learned some things and to have made a new friend.

702

Absolutely.

703

And that's a wrap.

704

You can get the show notes with links to everything we talked about today at

PlantYourself.com slash six to three.

705

In movement news, I have returned to yoga and I'm studying with a couple of friends of

mine, John and Jessie of MonkeyBarGym.com.

706

I first met them 20 years ago.

707

I studied with them in their training facility in Madison, Wisconsin in 2005, have kept up

with them.

708

oh

709

uh During the pandemic, they went fully virtual digital and they've just come out with an

app that I'm really enjoying uh helping me to get back mobility, flexibility, build

710

strength on a.

711

a base of stability so that I can move easier and stop injuring myself.

712

If you're interested, I know it's on the Apple Store or the iPhone Store, and I think it's

either coming or it's already on the Android Store.

713

Just uh search for Monkey Bar Gym and you'll see the app.

714

And I think they have like a two week free trial.

715

So can give it a try and see if it helps you as much as I hope it's going to help me.

716

Other movement news been going to switch beaches now going back to San Sebastian Beach.

717

instead of Fragata.

718

ah

719

It's easier for my trainer.

720

The reason that's important, we're now working with actual weights.

721

So instead of just bands, he's actually bringing dumbbells and kettlebells.

722

And this is closer to his house.

723

So he doesn't have to carry, you know, 100 pounds of uh iron up oh through the church and

down the stairs.

724

So we're back to this beach where we first started, where we trained when I lived

downtown.

725

So that's probably way more information than you care about.

726

Also, this is a little bit weird.

727

I've played Ultimate Frisbee since 1977, making this what 48 years.

728

And I've just learned how to throw the sidearm, the finger flick differently so they get

more control over it.

729

So it turns out that I was holding it very loosely and now I'm gripping it much more

tightly.

730

So now the beginning of all of our workouts with my trainer is we spend about five to 10

minutes just running around on the beach throwing the disc.

731

So it was just

732

just for warm up and cardio, but now I'm actually improving my throws.

733

So hopefully I'll be a little bit more of a of a deep throwing threat or an accurate break

mark threat in in games going forward.

734

That's it for this week.

735

As always, be well, my friends.