Episode Summary: In this CarbonSessions episode, hosts Leekei, Jenn, Kristina, and Olabanji dive into the intricacies of 'net zero,' a term increasingly used by governments and companies. 

But what does it genuinely mean? Does it equate to offsetting? And importantly, how does it contribute to addressing the climate crisis?

Inspired by a video from science communicator and astrophysicist Sabine Hossenfelder, Leekei shares her insights, shedding light on the complexities of these climate-related concepts. 

The episode reveals that a lack of understanding can leave us susceptible to greenwashing and manipulation in climate discourse, highlighting the importance of clarity and comprehension in these critical conversations.

To watch Sabine Hossenfelder video The Net Zero Myth. Why Reaching our Climate Goals is Virtually Impossible

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac (one of Amazon best-selling books of the year!), visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

You can find out more on page 30 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 999.

----- 

Featuring Carbon Almanac Contributors Leekei Tang, Jenn Swanson, Kristina Horning and Olabanji Stephen.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France. 

From Langley in British Columbia, Canada, Jenn is a Minister, Coach, Writer and community Connector, helping people help themselves. 

Kristina has a background in architecture and engineering. Currently in Prague (that it is where she is originally from) and her base is US

Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

----- 

The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Hi, I'm Christina.

2

I'm from Prague.

3

Hi, I'm Jen, and I'm from Canada.

4

Hi, I'm Oladunji, and I'm from Nigeria.

5

Hello, I'm Liki, and I live in Paris.

6

Hi, I'm Brian, and I'm from New York.

7

Welcome to Carbon Sessions, a podcast with

carbon conversations for every day, with

8

everyone, from everywhere in the world.

9

In our conversations, we share ideas,

perspectives, questions, and things we

10

can actually do to make a difference.

11

So don't be shy and join our Carbon

Sessions, because it's not too late.

12

Hi, it's Nikki.

13

Hi, this is Christina.

14

Hi, this is Jen.

15

What about if we share, discuss what

we know we've heard about net zero?

16

and we can just be crazy, and , not

be afraid of not knowing, because it's

17

actually something very technical,

and I so , let's play it dumb to

18

start with, and then let's try to

be a little bit serious at the end.

19

Alright?

20

Okay.

21

Okay.

22

I'm ready.

23

Okay.

24

Perfect.

25

Well, I don't have to play though.

26

I don't have a clue.

27

What is net zero.

28

Don't have to play it at all.

29

And I, it sounds so simple.

30

Net zero.

31

Okay.

32

There's something, uh,

trying to reach something.

33

, but what it And how can we reach

nothing if we have a lot of stuff?

34

It's confusing!

35

Okay, it's more, for me it's more, okay,

going to infinity instead of to net zero.

36

But please educate me.

37

But you've heard about people

talking about net zero.

38

Right, Christina.

39

Yeah, I heard about it, but I

listened to this one video and,

40

uh, I got even more confused, so.

41

Well, yeah, but you know, in which

context have you heard about net zero?

42

Uh, climate change?

43

Yeah, but what kind of setting?

44

Is it from people, companies,

government, schools?

45

Yeah, it's from outside.

46

It's from, uh, newspapers and, uh.

47

Reporters talk about it,

so it's, uh, it's all over.

48

It's almost like this new phrase.

49

new, uh, fashionable thing to talk about.

50

Yeah, you mentioned, um, a

permaculture conference you will

51

attend, or you have attended.

52

Yeah, I am right permaculture

conference in Prague.

53

And, uh, when I mentioned Carbon

Almanac, and there is another book,

54

um, About climate change, people

got really mad and really angry

55

and said, It doesn't make sense.

56

They're just taking one little thing and

they're not connecting to the reality.

57

And they think if they can build

electric cars and buy more electric

58

cars, it's going to solve everything.

59

So that's their view of it.

60

I think it's the disconnection

between the groups.

61

So, maybe you guys can, uh,

clarify net zero and tomorrow I

62

can go in and say, okay, now I

know everything about net zero.

63

We can connect.

64

. I think in the climate change and

environmental, um, discourse, there

65

are a lot of things, and uh, it's

real difficult , for us to make

66

the different connections, yeah.

67

I've been hearing about it.

68

Um, our, our government has, and Canada

69

Um, so they passed a law, but, you know,

and then you see when you order, when

70

you order things, when you order, uh,

an airplane ticket or you order, you

71

know, there's a company I order, um,

sustainable clothing from, and there's

72

always something you can add that's

a carbon offset, which, So, Is what I

73

assume, uh, the idea is that you're paying

money to, to them so that they then plant

74

trees or do something different that would

then cancel out the carbon that's being

75

used because you're shipping clothing

or you're getting on a plane and it's.

76

It kind of makes me wonder, is that real?

77

Is the money actually going to,

you know, like what's happening?

78

And I'm a little suspicious of that,

but I think for me, what I understand

79

net zero to be is, is basically a

balancing out of, um, Of doing good

80

things for the environment to offset

all the bad things we're doing.

81

But like Christina said, we've

been doing bad things for decades.

82

So how on earth are we going to do this?

83

That's, that's the only, that's all I got.

84

Yeah.

85

That makes sense.

86

I have no idea if that's it at all.

87

Me too, to be honest.

88

If I were to add to that, it would

be like, I made carbon, which is

89

like carbon in, and then take it out.

90

Which is basically carbon out such that

the amount of carbon you're emitting

91

is You're taking that much out of the

atmosphere as well And so that way we're

92

sort of at a balance of no carbon at

all which is which is It's cool, but

93

it's ambitious It's very very ambitious

and I think the paris agreement also

94

agreed Had this whole plan that it'll

95

So I, what I understood from the video

we watched was it's not as much the

96

carbon, but there are more other worse

things in the air people are putting in.

97

So are we concentrating only

on one thing because it feels

98

like we can influence this?

99

Yeah.

100

Uh, yes.

101

Well, um, I've been, I've heard about

net zero a lot, , like you, and, um,

102

this is actually one of the, um, it

is one of the goal, um, something that

103

we could use to measure a goal, , the,

this is a goal we can use to measure

104

our progress in order to achieve

105

goal

106

Um, there's a, there's actually in the

carbon almanac, if you remember, there's

107

a page on net zero and it's a CISO.

108

And um, so on one side of the

CISO, you have, um, the factories.

109

And, uh, also, uh, cut down trees and

on the other side, you have forests

110

and I think a little bit of ocean.

111

And so the illustration of that is that,

um, net zero is achieved when those two

112

sides of the seesaw are balanced out.

113

So that's great, right?

114

That's a very simple, um,

definition of net zero.

115

Yeah.

116

But the thing is that if you notice

that, um, yeah, it's, it's very easy

117

to understand as a concept, but.

118

There was no definition and when Ola

Benji suggested this topic, I started

119

looking for researching on this topic.

120

And luckily I found a video

from one of my favorite science

121

communicator on precisely net zero.

122

And I was so happy to, to, um, that she

published this video exactly this week.

123

And um, so I've learned a lot of things.

124

And to tell you the truth.

125

I watched it a couple of times, like

three, four times, and I took some notes.

126

So I think I understand a little bit more,

but, um, yeah, let's, let's give it a go.

127

And, um, let me try to explain it to

you and feel free to ask me questions.

128

I'll try to find the answers or I'm

sure that we'll figure out because

129

it's like everything, you know, we

just need to learn and try to, to

130

research and try to understand it.

131

Bye.

132

So, net zero.

133

So this um, this is a, this is

a little video from a YouTube

134

channel from a scientist.

135

I think she's a physicist,

astrophysicist or something.

136

It's how I came across her

channel actually, because I'm

137

interested in astrophysics.

138

hEr name is Sabine Hosenfelder,

I think, and she's from Germany.

139

So she started explaining

what net zero is.

140

So she showed us a definition from the

International Standard Organization,

141

which is ISO, that defined in 2022

net zero as the condition in which

142

human caused residual greenhouse gas

emissions are balanced by human led

143

removals over a specified period.

144

And within , specified boundaries.

145

, So basically, this is, again, uh,

again, the, you know, this illustration

146

is a scale, things are balanced out.

147

But, um, the thing that you would

notice is that, Net zero doesn't

148

mention temperature in its definition.

149

And the thing is that we are focusing,

we need to focus on when we talk about

150

net zero to focus on the level of carbon

dioxide in the atmosphere at the time

151

we're starting talking about net zero,

because there's a big difference as

152

she explained in this video between,

uh, things, , 400 billion tons of CO2

153

between this level of concentration.

154

and 800 billion in the consequences

on climate change and then temperature

155

increase will be different.

156

So this is the first thing.

157

The second thing is that net zero is

something that is quite imperfect because,

158

um, net zero focuses on what is.

159

, produced and consumed by, I mean, um, add

and remove in the atmosphere from humans,

160

but it doesn't take into account the

natural disasters and natural phenomenon

161

and natural disasters like, you know, uh,

wildfires or, um, the volcano eruptions.

162

All this kind of natural phenomenon

are very difficult to predict.

163

So, therefore, it's difficult to

add in the calculation of net zero.

164

Um, the other thing is that, , you know,

um, , she also, she also talks about

165

aerosols level and aerosols level, it's

something that, again, it's linked to,

166

, to natural phenomena, phenomena that are

difficult to, quantify, and not quantify,

167

sorry, it's difficult to predict.

168

So yes, so there's this thing.

169

And the other thing is that net zero

is only, we only talk about emissions.

170

And so we're not talking about how

to keep the temperature in check.

171

Right?

172

Are you still with me?

173

I could ask.

174

So as I understand now, and

let me know if it's wrong.

175

That the net zero means whatever

we put out, we should take care of.

176

Yes.

177

Okay.

178

Um, and, and from what you're saying,

Nikki, it's not just what we put out.

179

It's everything that is being put

out, so to say, um, by every means,

180

including like the wildfires.

181

No, no, this is not what

I, I was trying to say.

182

Um, net zero is focused on human

induced, um, human led emission.

183

Emissions and removal.

184

And so what I'm trying to explain is

that it's, um, this, it's difficult to

185

quantify, to predict the nature led.

186

In and out from carbon emissions.

187

Yes.

188

Yeah.

189

Okay.

190

Sounds great.

191

So if we dirty the dishes,

we need to wash them again.

192

That's precisely that.

193

Yes.

194

But then how do we link

it to temperature again?

195

So the link with the temperature rise

is that in order to meet the Paris

196

Agreement targets, We need to pick

197

significantly because currently we are

emitting about 55 billion tons of carbon

198

dioxide every year with the global

temperature rises that is already at 1.

199

1 degree.

200

And in order to keep them the level

that we were pledged to to keep

201

during the Paris Agreement, Which

is to keep the global temperature

202

rise well below two, two degree.

203

Which is 1.5, we need to keep our

carbon budget of about 400 to 800

204

billion tons of CO2 until 2050.

205

And knowing that we have already

emitting about 55 tons per year.

206

And right now that it's not working.

207

So, so my, my understanding is, and

from, from the resource that you

208

shared as well, so my understanding

is we have to remove 1 billion ton.

209

Each year by 2030 And then by 2050 We

have to start to remove 5 billion tons

210

each year Which is a huge divide from what

we're currently doing, which is about 2.

211

3 million tons.

212

And so the gap is Not wide

because why doesn't cut it?

213

That's like that's like

ocean wide between 2.

214

3 million tons and One billion ton that

we should actually be doing realistically

215

to be able to achieve net zero.

216

And so, yeah, yeah, it's pretty ambitious.

217

Hopefully not too ambitious.

218

Actually, Benji, I didn't do the

exact, the exact maps, but it

219

seems that it is very ambitious.

220

It's basically, uh, what this figure

suggests is that, , Aiming for net

221

zero, it's not enough because we

have already tapped in so much in our

222

carbon budget that if we keep that

level, it will be very, very difficult

223

to reduce the temperature rise.

224

And so what we need to do is to remove,

to remove carbon from the atmosphere.

225

This is the idea.

226

And this is what, um, what, you know, Jen

was saying at the beginning that It's, uh,

227

you know, when you buy something, you can

pay a little extra to remove the carbon.

228

This is upsetting.

229

This is actually, uh, paying

and removing what you will emit.

230

But it's not removing.

231

Removing is really removing

from the atmosphere what's the

232

extra that we need to remove.

233

So, but how do we know when we pay the

money that it's actually happening?

234

That's my question.

235

And I wonder if others are

suspicious or if it's just me.

236

No, I think, I think that when you pay

the money, it might probably offset.

237

So it's neutral.

238

But it's not helping you or

your company achieve net zero.

239

You know what I mean?

240

Is that it might balance out the purchases

you've made, but it will not remove

241

additional carbon from the atmosphere.

242

Therefore, it's probably

doesn't contribute to net zero,

243

what this lady is trying to explain is

that, uh, there's a big difference between

244

carbon offsetting and carbon removal.

245

What a lot of people get confused about

is, , uh, when they think that, oh,

246

well, um, I'm doing an carbon offsetting.

247

This will help me remove and

fight against climate change.

248

The problem is that we've gone too far.

249

An excess of what we produce.

250

We need to remove all this

carbon from the atmosphere.

251

So that is the, that is something that's

difficult to, to understand, to get is

252

that, you know, there's a difference

between offsetting and removal.

253

This is what I'm trying to explain.

254

Yeah.

255

Yeah.

256

I agree with Jen.

257

What do they do with that money they

officially take for that offset?

258

Because, as I heard many times, the

removal, carbon removal from the

259

atmosphere, uh, There are a lot of

options to do that, and a lot of

260

them are not really doing the net

zero because they're kind of removing

261

the carbon, but putting more carbon

into atmosphere by removing it.

262

This is something we need to, to stop

getting, stop thinking that carbon

263

offsetting doesn't lead to Net zero.

264

I think this is, um, this one thing

we need to, to remember from this

265

conversation is that carbon offsetting

is really different from Achieving net

266

zero because carbon offsetting helps you

balance out the scale just on one thing.

267

But the problem is so big, there's

so much carbon in the atmosphere

268

that we need to do more and

remove this from the atmosphere.

269

Oh yeah, so it'll be, if I were to make

an illustration, it'll be like, there's

270

maybe 20 jellies in a bar and you, you

contribute one to it, but then you make

271

an effort to remove the one that you

contribute to it, but there's still 20.

272

So if you contribute one, it

makes it 21, but you offset

273

the one that you contribute.

274

But it's still 20 there.

275

So contributing and offsetting what

you contribute does not necessarily

276

help achieve the entire removal of all.

277

Of the jellies in the bar.

278

So you've, you've got to

like do more than offsets.

279

Yeah.

280

I love that.

281

I think, I think everybody

understand Candace.

282

Yeah.

283

So, so here's the question.

284

Do does changing our habits to stop

making it in the first place and

285

then, and then contributing to removal

do more than carbon offsetting?

286

I assume so, but I don't know

how we can contribute to carbon

287

removal except, except because it's.

288

Currently, we are, I mean, not

we, us, but the Earth is doing its

289

carbon removal job, but it's not

human induced, it's nature induced.

290

So plants, trees, removes

carbon from the atmosphere.

291

So yeah, what we can do is

to plant more trees, yes.

292

Yeah.

293

And more gardens.

294

I guess with net zero, um, it's,

it's going to have to be like an

295

all hands on deck kind of situation.

296

Because first of all, you have to

make sure that if you're producing

297

more carbon, you're offsetting it.

298

So that's rule number one.

299

If you produce more,

make sure you offset it.

300

So don't contribute more

to what's already there.

301

So I've said it first of all, and

then when you've offset it, try to

302

remove an extra from what is there.

303

So you can remove an extra by not

producing at all and let the earth

304

do the work of removing the existing

carbon, or you can make effort with

305

certain technologies that are available

to remove, um, carbon in the atmosphere.

306

So, yeah, I think it's gotta

be those things, but at least

307

don't add to it to start with.

308

But currently, currently the only

system that is doing its job in

309

carbon removal, really, it's nature.

310

Um, there are technologies out there,

but, yeah, there are technologies out

311

there, but they are not widely used,

you know, the thing that we call carbon

312

capture for the purpose of removal.

313

They're not widely used.

314

Yeah.

315

And it doesn't really solve

the problem because it just

316

kind of delays it, I guess.

317

Because it's like you capture

the carbon, but it's still here.

318

So they dig the ground and put the

carbon in the ground, but at some point

319

it's going to have to either be used

for something or pollute or something.

320

But carbon capture is, it's not, um.

321

No, well, carbon capture and storage.

322

This isn't one.

323

Carbon capture and storage.

324

So we.

325

Capture them, and trap them, and

keep them, so And store them.

326

Well, we're not doing enough of it.

327

But how do, so what

happens when we store them?

328

Because that, yeah, but is

that the end of the cycle?

329

The storage?

330

So if we store it, is it

like, yeah, we got it.

331

It's not going anywhere ever again.

332

Well, I believe that we need to

store them for the duration that,

333

you know, the temperature stops.

334

rising.

335

So we need to store them because

this carbon has been stored.

336

And the problem is that we've digged out,

we've digged, we've, we've digged big

337

holes on the soil and get all this carbon

from extracted all this oil and gas.

338

And this is how we emit carbon.

339

So we need to do it reverse.

340

So capture them and dig them

for very, very, very long time.

341

Yeah, that sounds great.

342

There is one thing that, uh, I think

that charcoal, people talk about,

343

uh, adding charcoal to their garden.

344

And I think when they, that,

that might be one of the things.

345

As a charcoal fertilizer or

a charcoal for the garden.

346

Yeah, I think if you wanna do

that, you need to look it up.

347

I'm not a garden, I have no idea.

348

Yeah, I know.

349

The charcoal act, activated charcoal

for the plants is really good

350

and it, uh, puts, uh, carbon into

the soil and helps the plants.

351

But I wonder if they, when they make it.

352

Is it, uh, using up, uh,

the carbon from atmosphere?

353

That'll be interesting.

354

Yeah.

355

Yeah.

356

Well, it's extracted, right?

357

It's mined.

358

Yeah.

359

Oh, activated charcoal

is made out of plant.

360

At least that's what I think.

361

I'll look it up.

362

But I think to go back to your

question, Jen, I think, you know, what

363

we can do in, individually to help

the, um, the carbon removal effort

364

is to Advocate for carbon removal.

365

First, explain the difference between

, carbon offsetting and carbon removal.

366

And sometimes it might be very

misleading and make you think that,

367

Oh, you're helping the planet.

368

No, it helps you stop polluting it.

369

It helps you stop increasing,

increasing , the temperature.

370

That's it.

371

Because, \ , what we really

need to do is carbon removal.

372

So first Explain that.

373

Second is that, you know, um, , advocate

and also ask your, I don't know, your

374

municipalities, I don't know if it works,

but your governments to, to really have

375

a carbon removal policy strategies.

376

Implemented.

377

So, yeah, to get more serious,

it's probably all good.

378

It's probably all good.

379

Like do it all.

380

Yeah, we need everything.

381

I think one of the greatest thing

we can do to achieve net zero is be

382

better at figuring out greenwashing.

383

Right.

384

So if we can get To stop greenwashing

that would be very very good because

385

there are some net zero goals and

Policies that are also greenwashing.

386

It's like hey, we want to do net

zero This is like the plan and stuff,

387

but they ain't doing none of that.

388

So We probably should you know consider

um, whoever is in position to like

389

If you find out where there might be

greenwashing going on It might be it

390

might be a great time to start to police

that So to say for lack of a better

391

word, I think policing might be strong,

but yeah, probably policing Greenwashing

392

because then we can make sure that the

and you know It's like those who greenwash

393

are the ones that in quotes might have

something to lose So chances are they

394

are heavy emitters of carbon and so if

they're greenwashing then That's something

395

to kind of check and make sure that

Um, that it's not, it doesn't continue.

396

And if you don't know what greenwashing

is, listen to our last episode.

397

Yeah.

398

Yeah.

399

This discussion on net zero really

illustrates the fact that we need to get

400

more education and more understanding

of the climate conversations, everything

401

that is involved in the discussions

around the environment and climate change.

402

Because, uh, if we don't understand it.

403

We, it's so easy to be, to get fooled.

404

Okay, okay.

405

Liki, you're probably the one with the

most knowledge on net zero here, now,

406

and I'm gonna ask you one question.

407

Do you think that net

zero is possible at all?

408

Do you think we can, do you

think we can do net zero?

409

I guess, yes, we could, but

we really need to hurry up and

410

decide this is what we want.

411

Like, we as in.

412

I think it's possible, but I'm not a

scientist, but from what I read, watched,

413

listened to, I gathered that it is

possible, but we really, really, really

414

need to make the decision like right now.

415

And I just, I just want to throw

something into there, caution, because

416

there are big now industries talking

about capture, CO2 capture from the air.

417

And, uh, there is one direct air

capture using high powered fans.

418

Air is drawn into a processing

facility where the CO2 is separated

419

through a series of chemical

reactions and stored underground.

420

I don't want more chemistry in the

air and in the ground and in the soil.

421

It doesn't sound, focusing and just

removing it, it doesn't sound safe.

422

Um, well, okay, this is, this is

a discussion I always have with

423

my chemistry students because I

coach and teach chemistry students

424

and, um, chemistry is everywhere.

425

This is something you would

need to get straight about.

426

Chemistry is everywhere.

427

Cooking is chemistry, you know, um,

cooking is chemistry, baking is chemistry.

428

It's.

429

It's a transformation of molecules.

430

So chemistry is everywhere.

431

Chemistry was everywhere in Czech

Republic in a way that it killed

432

rivers and gave cancer to people.

433

So I'm scared of that chemistry,

the chemicals that destroy stuff.

434

And I think that I'm worried that not

only they use a lot of energy for this

435

process, but also if they use chemicals.

436

That are not safe, um, just

worried about it a little bit.

437

Yeah, I understand what you're

referring to is bad chemistry.

438

Uh, but chemistry is, uh,

it's a, it's reaction.

439

It's science.

440

So it's everywhere.

441

Everywhere.

442

Well, this is interesting.

443

This has been an interesting conversation.

444

I need to, uh, I need to learn more.

445

Yeah.

446

So if you have a chance to, to spend

some time at the video that I'm going

447

to put in the show notes because I'm

going to watch it again and again and.

448

Try to educate myself more because, um, I

think my understanding of, I think you are

449

watching this video helped me understand

a little bit about, um, net zero, but

450

there's so much I still need to learn.

451

Yeah.

452

It's an emotional thing, connecting

all these dots to one simple net zero.

453

Yeah.

454

Well, that's it, everyone, on

today's episode of Net Zero,

455

sorry, I mean, Carbon Sessions.

456

But yeah.

457

We're, we're done with net zero for today.

458

We're, we're, we're definitely done.

459

Yeah, there will be an exam

and test next time, okay?

460

End up on a positive note somehow.

461

Thank you.

462

Bye.

463

I love it.

464

Bye.

465

Bye.

466

Bye.

467

You've been listening to Carbon

Sessions, a podcast with carbon

468

conversations for every day with

everyone from everywhere in the world.

469

We'd love you to join the Carbon

Sessions so you too can share your

470

perspectives from wherever you are.

471

This is a great way for our community

to learn from your ideas and

472

experiences, connect, and take action.

473

If you want to add your voice to the

conversation, go to thecarbonalmanac.

474

org slash podcast.

475

And sign up to be part

of a future episode.

476

This podcast is also part of

the Carbon Almanac Network.

477

For more information, to sign up for

the emails, to join the movement,

478

and to order your copy of the Carbon

Almanac, go to thecarbonalmanac.

479

org.

480

Be sure to subscribe and join

us here again, as together

481

we can change the world.