This "part two" conversation with Toby Daly came about because I've been trying to learn the Saam system of acupuncture as he detailed it a recent Journal of Chinese Medicine article. 

In that process I've had some surprising good results, as well as a few cases that I really took in the wrong direction. 

Toby points out, when you get it wrong, it's really wrong and you'll know pretty quickly. Unless you're still fairly new at it and not yet tuned into the warning signs of trouble. 

This discussion comes from my own clinic experience with trying to learn the diagnostics and how to tune my clinical thinking. 

Toby really makes the Saam perspective come alive with relevant clinical examples as he helps me to "correct my errors in the forest of medicine."

If you have an interest in employing this powerful method of acupuncture, pull out a notebook and pen, because you are going to want to take notes!

Hey friends.

Welcome back to qiological today.

I've got Toby daily with me again.

If you've been a regular listener to geological show number

45, Toby and I sat down for a conversation about som acupuncture.

Som is a Korean tradition.

We got into it on that episode.

And since then I've been working this stuff in the clinic and, oh

my God, have I got some questions?

So Toby has graciously agreed to come back, sit down with us and, uh,

you know, kind of play my, or kind of play long D to my, uh, chin bow

here and, uh, answer some questions.

So I'm really excited about this Toby.

Welcome back to.

Qiological thanks so much, Michael, I'm happy to be

here again.

Yeah, this

is, this is, this is an amazing kind of acupuncture because

I'm finding that it makes my brain work in a different way and it ties

a whole bunch of stuff together.

And one of the things.

That I'm struck by, as I've been working through this article that you published.

And I read it again and again, after, uh, after I'd been in clinic,

but there's, there's some concepts in here that are very nicely laid

out and I get it when I read it.

But when I sit down in clinic, my brain kind of goes till I just

it's like, I don't have all the mental structures in place yet.

To use it.

So what I'd like to start with is a look at the six levels here.

Right?

You've got the tie in moisture that is treated by the Yangming dryness

and you know, and that makes sense.

And then you got the, the ShaoYin and the Taiyang.

So we've got water and fire and then the tree in, in the shaoyang actually,

I want to start with that because you know, the water and fire, right.

And the heat and dryness, I'm sorry, the, the moistness and the dryness.

I get that.

But you talk about Jan as being associated with inward movement and it's balanced

by the shaoyang outward movement.

That's a really nice idea.

What does it actually mean?

How would we see this expressed in our patients?

Yeah, I think that's a great place to start.

I think, you know, it's basically, people's sorta their, how they approach

the world, uh, whether it's more internal, like more reflective or more reactive for

the outside, that's a big, broad term.

So if someone's really aggressive and, uh, you know, really focused on outside world,

then I usually think about shaoyang.

If someone's like a monk, a much more inward looking than I think about.

So it's orientation to how you get around in this

world.

All right.

So would that sync up a little bit, or at least touch in on introverted

extroverted a hundred percent.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Okay, good.

Wow.

All right.

That helps.

Um, actually that really helps.

I

think it might be helpful to look at, uh, the pairings

there for that, especially the Dre and pericardium and shaoyang.

Uh, my teacher, when he introduced those two concepts to me, he said that, think

about that pericardium energy as being like librarian energy and gallbladder

energy being like Mike Tyson energy.

So you can see the orientation with those two people is totally different.

One's biting yours.

And one is, you know, quietly, you know, reading.

So a lot times we can see our patients fit into one of those categories.

Totally.

That's really helpful.

I think, yeah.

It's a clear image for my teacher and I see a plate over

and over again in the clinic.

Okay.

Let's go look at the ShaoYin in the Taiyang.

Are there in a moment I want to get into all the organs themselves, but

for now, just working through this first layer of the six of the six

confirmations, do you have kind of an arc type for the ShaoYin and the title?

I think it's just the heat and cold aspect.

So, you know, that that could be mental aspects or spiritual aspects

to, you know, just certain people, a really, you know, they're just so

outgoing and hot warm feeling with them.

And some people you come in contact with you just, you really

feel cold, you know, right away.

I started getting a feel on that.

You know, when the patient's in front of me, uh, they really

cold, reserved a really warm.

Got it.

So, so you're really in a lot of ways attending to your own sensing of what

kind of person is in front of me.

Are they in, are they out or the extroverted, are they like hot and loving?

You know, I'm thinking of, uh, a patient I've got she's

like mom had everybody right.

A very energetic, outward kind of energy.

Right?

So that's again, But that's not my Tyson aggressive, you

know, it's warm, it's nurturing.

So yeah, you can see, you know, looking at the six, uh, confirmations

that, you know, different aspects of it, uh, play out differently.

So there'll be more of like a, a ShaoYin heart fire in that case.

Got it.

Okay.

And so that's high for, at least for me, you know, everyone's got their own stuff

that they easily caught into and other things that are up to for me, the tie

in moisture, in the Yangming dryness.

I mean, that's just seems to make sense.

We'd like look at their tongue or we look at their skin.

Uh, I think those are probably pretty clear indications.

Is there anything else that you would add to that?

Yeah,

that's definitely where I start.

Yeah.

That's a good place to start.

Look at the overall damp or dryness of the person.

Okay.

All right.

You know, your article is so short.

It's like what?

Five pages, but I think I've read it about six times now.

Because

I really appreciate you putting so much time into it.

Well, it's dense.

I mean, it's really dance.

I mean, you, you can make a small book out of this, no pressure.

And so I'm, I'm looking at like the, the second page, you know, and, and by the

way, folks, this will be on the website.

You can, you can download.

Uh, or if you're a subscriber to the journal of Chinese medicine, it's,

it's in there, but then there's the top chart and it goes over

like the seasonal correspondences and directions and body parts.

And I mean, all that's helpful, but the chart that's in the middle of the

page, you talk about organ systems.

You talk about confirmation, the six levels, the phases, right.

That wishing the five phases.

And then you get into this Psalm combined characteristics.

Now I can follow all this stuff until I get to the som combined characteristic.

And then I'm like, well, I'm not sure what to do with that.

So it seems like the various organs that we have here,

it's like, they're archetypes.

I'm wondering if you could take some time here and just give

us kind of a, a quick tour.

Of each of these are typical images.

You know, if someone comes in with say a liver confirmation, a Dre in

would liver inward, as you put it inward wind plus wind equals strong

wind princesses, inner contemplation.

Okay.

Can you give us like a, almost like a cartoon picture or a

arc typical stereotype kind of image of each of these so that.

As people walk into my clinic, I can begin to go, oh yeah.

Toby talked about these people looking like that, or sounding like

this or doing these kinds of things.

Yeah, definitely.

I think that'd be really helpful to look up at this.

Just keep in mind.

So each Oregon we're going to be talking about as really three aspects to it.

The yin yang aspect, the five phase aspect and the six confirmation aspect.

It's all kind of glued together.

Uh, in the som system to just one archetype.

So that's, that's really where these archives will be coming from this three

different systems combined together.

I think like you said, uh, the liver and for this system, liver and

Sanjay is a heritage for this one.

So the dream is paired with the shaoyang San Jo on this one.

So like I was telling you before a little bit, this is

a little bit like monk energy.

If you have a lot of . That's a really deep concentration energy and the liver

energy is much more loose and cool.

So a lot of times, if I'm I have a patient that's really, um, not very

self-aware, especially my teacher really pointed out, not very polite, especially

from the, person's not really polite.

Doesn't do really social norms.

They really need to, you really need to supplement the sign Jo

energy in that case, because that will really help them with.

Inner

concentration.

Wait, wait a minute.

You supplement the Sanjay energy

for that, uh, impolite unaware

person because they're not looking outward.

They're not looking inward.

The liver energy is the inward cool energy.

So I'm confused here.

If they don't have enough inward cool energy going, why would you supplement

Dishon chow when she supplement the liver?

No, if you want someone to be polite, we would supplement

the side.

Really.

Okay.

I'm this is great.

I'm totally confused.

Explain how that works.

Uh, this one has to do with like that piercing concentration

aspect that people, especially people that are impolite, not very socially

aware, socially aware don't have.

So my art type for the Sohn genotype is the opposite of a monk.

Someone really socially unaware, no social graces, like knocking

things over, just really unaware.

Got it.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

It does.

Now.

It's a different way of looking at this totally different lens.

So, you know, you have to kind of put away usually, Hey, you think

about the sun jour or the liver, and usually they're not paired, right?

The system person.

It's a really different

way.

Yeah.

We'll see.

I was thinking for myself, and this is why this conversation is

so helpful and why we're having it.

Cause you know, I've been working with this stuff in clinic, um,

later on, we'll get into what you do when you do things wrong.

I've definitely done some things wrong.

But as you were talking about this, this outward energy in these people

that are, you know, they're not aware of their surroundings and they're

not aware of their effect on other people, I'm thinking, well, you

need to give them a little inward.

No mental clarity.

And I was thinking, yeah, it brings some of that liver inward.

Maybe they get a little contemplative, you know, and start to think about things.

And then they would act differently.

I mean, that's where I would have gone.

And so when you say Sanjay, I'm thinking, wait a minute, how,

how does that work with this?

I mean, this is why we're having this conversation because it's

easy to look at something.

Contemplation associated with the liver and because of me and my biases in this

world, I think, well, if people are more contemplative, they'll behave better, but

that doesn't sound like it's the case.

Yeah.

But I think

you're right.

I think you're just misunderstanding the energy and I may have misspoke about.

Anyways, because all we're talking about the system is we're always

trying to add what they don't have.

And so I think we might've gotten, got crosswise there about what they already

have too much about what we need to add.

So let me give you an example.

So I work with a lot of, uh, Buddhist monastics and, um, so they spent a

lot of time developing their son, Joe energy that, uh, really hot concentrate.

And then this system associates with some gel.

And so almost all of them.

I supplement the liver energy to make everything a little bit more cool and

calm on the inside of their bodies.

They're already super polite.

Uh, like we'd expect with the sun gel, they just really need to, you

know, just kind of counterbalance all that extreme concentration.

You know, a lot of them spend months or even years just really

developing that concentration.

Got it.

Okay, bring on the next

one.

Okay.

Well, we already discussed a little bit about, um, gallbladder and

pericardium is that that's pretty clear.

It's easy one to, uh, to picture your mind, Mike Tyson and librarian.

Uh, so maybe we'll just skip that one, then go to a heart heart.

And the system is paired with urinary bladder, and this is a pairing

of heart associated with love and urinary bladder associated with fear.

And so.

Ah, love with fire and cold water fear, uh, associated with the urinary bladder.

Okay.

That's a really pretty straightforward presentation also.

Right, right.

It's just so interesting because when I start thinking in young, which is, you

know, obviously my training, it's all of our trainings, you know, I would go to

the other Taiyang Oregon, small and test.

So to pair it with the bladder, you know, it's just, it's it

just takes a little mental shift.

We're still working Taiyang here, but we're not doing Taiyang fire.

I'm sorry, we're not doing ShaoYin fire.

We're doing Taiyang water.

Right?

So, I mean, I think that the most important thing we probably should

have started with as all of these are like opposites in the body

opposite aspects of the body.

And we pair them so that they can balance each other out and the system.

So that's where we would, for example, the heart is ShaoYin,

which is associated with fire.

And then this phase is fire.

So it's like double.

And Taiyang, uh, with your inner bladders tie on, which is, um,

associated with cold water.

And then obviously there's a water element, so it's water,

fire, and extreme cold water.

Um, so you can see it's, it's, uh, it's an obvious pairing.

Yeah, I see it now.

Yep.

That, that now that comes in.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sorry.

I should have been, uh, giving you a little bit more framework to put

all this before we just started

jumping in, but this is the framework.

I mean, you you've given a framework in the article and then I, my

sense is at least my experiences, it needs to start working it.

And for me, it's a matter of like reorganizing my thinking in a way.

So when you say something like heart is double fire, And

urinary bladder is double water.

Oh, okay.

Now I got it.

Now it snaps to grid.

Didn't snap to grid before now it's snaps to grid, right?

Usually we don't have these systems glued together.

Like this system.

Uh, usually it's separate, right.

You know, we use a six confirmations for herbal medicine or, you know, phases

separately, or, you know, separately, the system really tries to glue it

all together so that you can just use all three systems simultaneously.

So it's a little bit confusing at first when, uh, when you put them all together.

But then actually I find it really helpful in the clinic.

Well, here's the other thing.

They actually excites me about studying this stuff right now is we do have, you

know, we've got the different systems.

We've got the five phases we got in young.

We got song Fu uh, six confirmations.

And so often I've looked at this and gone, well, this system kind of hangs a little.

Together with that system.

And this one over here kind of hangs with that.

And it's, you know, and then you got the small intestine flapping

in the wind, you know, who knows what to do with that thing.

This system really does bring a certain kind of coherence to the whole situation.

Yeah, I find it to be really helpful as an organizing principle

and diagnosis in the, in the clinic.

It's just been great because it's not like you kind of hemmed and hawed about

something you really have to decide.

Is it definitely hot?

Is it definitely cold?

Is, is definitely, is someone really extroverted or introverted?

You really have to decide that before you treat.

So like you were telling me before something, if you make a mistake in

diagnosis with this system, uh, you know,

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're going to get into that later.

There's I've had, uh, well, you know, I had some spontaneous combustion

the other day I made a patient completely burned up on the table.

It was exciting.

All right.

So the heart we've, we have a pretty good sense of the heart.

This is a person who's, you know, they're loving that love comes

out where they're kind of extra.

They're probably kind of extroverted.

Uh, yeah, in general, a little bit extroverted

that love is not self-love.

We'll get into that in a minute with Katie.

That's more self-love, you know, where you really think highly of yourself,

this is, this is more outward, right?

You write love for others.

You think about like the mother archetype of the heart, right.

It's she's really just anything for her kids lift up the car off them, you

know, that, that kind of just amazing.

Lift up

right.

Double fire.

Right.

There's a lot of power in that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Okay.

And then what about your cold, watery, urinary bladder person?

What are, what do they look

like?

Right.

I mean, that's a really fearful person, you know, they're just terrified of

everything and, uh, Sometimes, you know, sometimes we see that in clinic, uh, where

someone's just terrified of everything.

And they're scared about the herbs.

They're scared about being there and things like that.

So a lot of times too, for that kind of case, even if it's just

temporary, maybe it's not like they're their strong constitution where

they're just terrified or anything.

But when they're presenting in the clinic at that moment, Scared of

everything or those herbs can be contaminated needles versus heels coming

from, you know, just a lot of fear.

A lot of times I will supplement the heart, uh, for those patients to

counterbalance that kind of bounce that

okay.

And again, you talk about adding to what they don't have.

Right.

And that that's, that's where I think it's hard with this

system because it's opposite.

So you're always thinking about, I need.

They have too much of this one too much fear.

So I've got to go to heart and supplement the heart to counterbalance

that cold in the urinary bladder

while we're on the subject here, why not disperse?

The thing that there's too much.

Yeah, definitely.

We could do that.

You know, a lot of times, especially with TCM, you know, we think about getting

the blockages and stagnations out of the way before we, tonify definitely

in.

Sometimes I will do that if the patient's really strong or some kind of emergency

case, or if there's just a huge gap between the two, sometimes I will drain

the offending Oregon, but especially my teacher really emphasize this.

If at all possible, you want to add something to this.

You know, you want to make the patient overall better.

So if you can close that gap by supplementing the problem that

they're low on, that's really the best way to approach it in clinic.

And my suspicion is maybe it's a little safer as well.

I think

it's definitely better for the patient, especially if you make a mistake,

if you, if you drain where they're already too low in, that's a big problem.

I think that's probably more dangerous than supplementing

what they already have to.

All right.

I can follow that.

Great.

So moving along, we've already talked about the San Joel,

right?

And we started to talk about kidney that's a little bit more like.

So that's, that's, ShaoYin again like the heart that you met fire, and that's

a little bit of love, but it's more internal going deep into the body.

The deepest part of the body for chase, miss Mizmoon was thinking about water.

So that's a fire water combination for Katie and, um, my teacher, the image

for this one is like more like being one fire, like a ball of gasoline.

That's.

So that's the liquid fire, you know, a lot of powerful, but deep energy,

not so much outward it's it's way inside.

Right.

Way, way inside.

And that, that fire is not directed outside.

Like with the heart it's more directed inside.

So that's like more self-regarding maybe some of them a little bit egotistical,

be more, have a lot more kidney.

What about people that are like really narcissistic?

Yeah.

That's I mean, that's, I would think in general with this system where we

think their, uh, their kidney is too high,

the kidney energy is too high.

So you would bring, you'd bring some of that hot fiery.

Heart love into the situation to warm

it up.

But yes, if we thought that we wanted to direct that more to the outside, love to

be outside, but in this system, a kidney is paired with a, uh, small intestine.

Kidney is paired with small intestine.

All right.

You are totally.

Giving my neurons whiplash here.

I told

you this isn't gonna be easy.

Okay.

I buckled up.

I can handle this.

Yeah.

It's it's really, it's, it's familiar things, but group totally.

Yeah, right.

I mean, this is, this is great.

I love having this conversation.

Oh my God.

Our, all our colleagues are listening in as I keep going off the rails.

Just try and have a conversation with you about this.

All right.

So kidney small intestine, uh, clues clue me in, uh, hopefully there's other

people that are listening to this going, what the hell are they talking about?

So again, small intestine is Taiyang.

So we've got the water aspect again and combined with a fire.

So, this is really a dynamic, uh, in this case, it's really a dynamic movement.

So like I was saying before about kidney it's that, uh, liquid fire

inside really deep inside the body.

Uh, the small intestine manifestation about firework combination is

really a lot of dynamic movement.

So, especially someone, um, like you were saying really narcissistic.

So really a lot of kitty energy they're really focused on themselves.

A lot of times I will supplement the small intestine so that we can really

move that out of their ego, really disperse that throughout the whole body.

So it's not, everything's not just concentrated there in the lower jaw, so

it takes it and it circulates it around

using the dynamic nature of fire and water.

It makes it extremely dynamic.

So especially a.

Or if there's people that lot of led Stacy's and things like

that, a lot of times I do use the smaller testing that the system.

Ah, okay.

Tell us a little more about how small intestine helps

with treating blood Stacy's

oh, again, like I was saying is the dynamic aspect of

fire and water that makes everything really dynamic in the body.

You have both of them, premarital powers, fire and water, and

that helps really push that.

I'll never forget when I first was seeing a patient with my teacher and, uh, is

a patient, uh, maybe a broken their legs 20 years ago, hiking and horrible

break, you know, just multiple break.

And, you know, still here, 20 years later, it's a whole bunch

of varicose veins and really black and blue, the whole lower leg.

And we did a small intestine for him and on the table, some

of those, uh, it started to.

Some of the stays in the leg.

I just, I couldn't believe it.

You watched, it happened before

your very eyes.

If you can have within just a couple of minutes of having an emails in

this 20 year old brain, starting to receive some of it's black and blue

nature, and you know, it wasn't subtle.

It was, it was grossly changing, you know, it was amazing, but they're

just showing the dynamic aspect of, uh, when, when you activate

the small intestine and the system.

Can you give us another example or two where this powerful dynamo

would be helpful besides blood status?

Yeah, I think where people just get stuck with themselves too.

Like you were saying before nurses state, a lot of people were just really

stuck, really focused on their own problems themselves and things like that.

Then lot of times I use small intestine just to kind of free that

up and move things in the body.

So they're not so stuck.

What's coming to my mind at this moment.

Often people look at things that are stuck.

And with our training, we often think, oh, there's some, you know, liver,

liver, cheese stagnation, right.

That it's the super popular diagnosis.

There's some liver cheese stagnation are there elements of what we would

usually call liver cheese stagnation that might actually be, oh, we need

to supplement a small, intense.

I would say, definitely.

Right.

And then you could always combine these, say the liver is a little bit

too hot, that person's a little bit too, um, introverted a little bit too.

Um, polite and things like that.

You could go by in the liver on one side and supplementing it

and the small intestine and the other side to move everything.

So that would be a good combination.

Wow.

My brain is turned completely inside out because, so

that's definitely how I started with the system.

Right.

There's a lot of things to think about, but eventually, you know, I'm so glad

we're talking about the archetypes.

Once you really understand the archetypes, you can really let the

theory drop away and just use that and

just use that.

Great.

So let's, let's just get into this liver thing for a moment, because

when you, when I hear you say a hot liver, I'm thinking, you know, someone

who's frustrated, someone who's angry, uh, maybe they've got some rage.

They're not pleasant to be around.

Cause they're really snippy.

And you're saying, oh yeah, the liver's too hot.

They're introverted.

And I'm going, wow.

Right.

So, I mean, I think the key thing I think about, like you were saying more

about that, that aggressive, uh, upset energy is more gallbladder energy for me.

Okay.

That's gallbladder, not liver and, and we, okay.

Got it.

Okay.

I mean, I can get to that through my union corresponds.

Yes.

It's the gallbladder that gets that way.

The liver is actually a quiet contemplative monk.

Yeah.

If, if everything's going well and balanced with the sign job and it's

fine know, but it, it tends to, it likes to be a cool and dark.

So you're right.

I mean, and TCM is right.

It doesn't like getting

hot.

Yeah.

The liver likes to be cool and dark that.

Okay.

I mean, there's just some real gems that you're coming out

with here that I'd have to say.

I don't quite understand it in this moment, but you know, I've

like taken a note and growing watch for the cold, dark and the liver.

Where does someone need some cool dark moistness, maybe

think about tonifying the liver.

And not so moist, but a little bit of moist, the ArcSight for my teacher.

He really thought about the liver as like, he visited me here in Northern

California and we went to Redwood forest and had a little bit of cool fog.

And he said, oh, this is a really liver energy.

And then later that day there was like a dark clouds.

And then it was.

Really opened up and burning bright sunshine.

And he was talking about how, oh, as soon as the clouds went away,

that really bright, clear sunshine, that's really soft, gentle energy.

So in my mind, that's really clear, you know, outside, uh,

examples, but we see this all the time with the patients, right.

If they have that right, nice, clear energy or that they had that really

dark energy and we need to balance that.

Okay.

So if someone's like brooding and turn all and you would.

Bring some energy to that.

Right.

I would add to that brooding internal and really impolite, just not very

soulful, really employ this in clinic.

Right.

Because you see people that kind of knock your stuff over.

Oh yeah, no.

I'm thinking someone the other day they came, this woman comes in.

Oh yeah, this was great.

I mean, she goes in the bathroom and then she comes out and she

goes, you need to empty your trash.

And then she comes into the treatment room and the place

where I've clearly got my stuff.

Like this is where I work.

This is where my needles come out.

She puts your hand bag.

They're not on the table next to the chair where she's supposed to sit.

Nope.

Right on my working area.

Yes.

So my, uh, uh, needle fingers getting itchy for some jail the right now.

And maybe if it's extreme like that, then you, and she's helping up

and you can consider, uh, draining

the liver.

Oh, great.

Okay.

This is, uh, I feel like, uh, things kind of come into view.

This is, this is like one of those.

Games they had on TV years ago where they call it concentration

where they like, you know, show you something and they turn something

over and they show you another thing.

And then they close it up again.

You got to try to match the pieces up.

This is what's.

This feels like I've got things that suddenly like come to clarity and then

they close up and you say something else?

I go, oh yeah, where's that thing.

It's over there.

Wait it, where is it?

Yeah, it is.

It's definitely like that.

And especially, I mean, it's so nice.

All these pictures that we're talking about, all of these concepts, you know,

so well, it's just combining them.

That's the interesting part about this system is combining.

Yeah.

It's like we already have all the pieces.

It's drawing new connections between them a hundred percent.

Okay.

Well that shouldn't be so hard, but damn, I'm having a hard time.

Okay.

It's really hard because already there they're such powerful

images and then to stick them all together, you end up in like a super.

All right.

Let's uh, let's continue.

Let's jump into the, uh, let's jump into the tie in and Yangming spleen,

the stomach, all these things.

Lungs, large

intestine.

Yeah.

So, uh, keeping with our archetype, uh, patient, right?

This, uh, this patient, uh, I'm not sure how we should present this.

So I'll tell you someone that has too much.

This is the person that is obese with really oily skin.

So this is TaiYin dampness and earth dampness.

So this is someone just all wet all the time.

And, uh, yeah, double dare.

And my teacher really recommend looking for the person who's really bored.

Th this heaviness, the dampness and that person that just bored with everything.

The internet doesn't have anything on.

This is for everything.

I have 3 million TV stations.

There's nothing on TV.

Right.

You can see it in your mind.

Right.

Really like puddled into the couch and just flipping through stations.

That's

extremely

drooling.

I really like that with the dampness.

Yeah, and it may be a big sweet drink with them.

Then you can see there's just way too much clean energy.

And then we put in this system, we, we pair with a large intestine, uh, which

is young main dryness and metal dryness.

So you can see that that's such an obvious pairing, right?

Super wet and super dry, double wet double drive, right?

Large intestine.

When you have too much large intestine energy, you are,

you know, real thin and dry.

And you just kind of hyperactive, really interested in a whole bunch of things.

So maybe people with add and ADHD, that kind of thing.

And especially with some of

these folks with, he has real creative people, lot

of times fall into this too.

Um, they're just always, you know, experimenting and doing different things.

Yeah.

So opposite of bored right there.

They're just really engaged with everything they come across.

They find it.

Right.

So for these kind of people, huh?

I'm seeing a younger version of myself in this one.

Yes.

I know you a little bit now and that I think definitely you have too much

large intestine energy, especially with all your different projects, all of the

different areas that go into you should probably get bored a little bit more.

And a lot of times when I have patients like, like with your constitution,

I do supplement the screen and I tell them, you need to try and get.

And it's like a foreign concept to them.

They just can't, I've never felt bored.

Yeah.

But try you won't be successful, but truck, excuse me, trying.

And you may be able to get a little bit more of this constitution balanced.

So should I put these needles in and like pull up Netflix or something?

Yes

and no, but it has to be really boring.

Right?

You might just have like a blank screen, nothing on and just try and be bored.

Oh my God.

This, this, this is a tall order.

So boredom as treatment.

Yes, God, you do have my number.

Jesus.

Okay.

So, so for these people that are like double dry, you're going to

give them the double wet you're going to tonify the spleen.

Yeah.

You, you can see it starting to make a lot more sense to you.

It's not a usual pairing.

We never, uh, in TCM or something, we never Paris clean with a large

intestine, but looking at the.

You know, w with, with the qualities that, that they're both

associated with with five elements in six confirmations, we can see.

Oh, it's obviously that that's a good parent.

Yeah.

It's a great pairing.

Okay.

All right.

What about the lung?

Low it, wait, let me guess.

Let me guess.

I'm a, let me see, let me see if I can put wheels on my thought here.

So the lawn is metal, so there's some dryness, but it's also tie in.

So there's some moistness.

So this is dynamic again, a little bit like we were doing before

with fire and water combinations, right.

This is dry and wet at the same time.

So it's a little bit small intestine, like.

Uh, dynamism.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not as clear, right?

Like, especially if you supplement these points that are a little bit

calm combined, it's pretty, sometimes not as clear if you've made a

mistake or done everything properly.

Whereas like, if you supplement heart and you're wrong, it a hundred

percent you'll know right away.

Or if you're right.

A hundred percent you'll know right away, because it's just so clearly fire or fire,

this one at least is a little bit more.

Okay.

But, but how we work with this is I'm someone with a lot of lung energy.

Uh, my teacher said the system, we, we think about, um, lung

energy as like resources.

So this would be someone with a lot of lung.

Energy's got a lot of resources and for modern, that means money.

So for, so for long, be really, really supplemented up.

Uh, the person would be really.

Dry scheme and really shallow breathing.

So some asthma patients, you have

sometimes asthma patients.

And, uh, sometimes I'll try to engage about my patients, how

their financial situation is.

And a lot of times, not directly, but I'll just, I mean, it was what

car they come up to the clinic in, or some, you know, whatever kind

of clothes and things like that.

And I try and make a determination there.

Are they really comfortable money-wise or not?

Especially if it's, if it's confusing and Matt, should I,

um, deal with the lung energy

or not help me understand?

How the metal lung energy is associated with financial wherewithal or.

Th that kind of thing.

I'm not, I'm not sure I quite get that correspondence.

Yeah.

I'm

not, I'm not sure that's implicit in what we're talking about.

You know, just metal and water.

I, I don't, I don't, I'm not sure exactly where my teacher got that from, but

definitely it's clinically relevant.

I've used it a lot, uh, quite a bit that, that concept, you know, from

TCM, we do talk about lung being, you know, they kind of the master chief.

And so if you think about cheap money as being just a type of cheese, Maybe

that maybe that's the association.

I'm not sure.

So let me, let me just dig into this a little more.

If I'm thinking of a particular patient at the moment who her

mother had no issues with money.

Oh my God.

As she put it, my mother was a bad ass, you know, and she had no

problem asking for what you want.

And she was perfectly happy to have plenty of money.

Plenty of money was good.

And, uh, yeah, that's, I mean, that's what I was thinking, but in fact, her

mom, such a bad-ass when w when the family got divorced and mom, all of

a sudden have a bunch of money, she moved the kids into a smaller house.

She gathered them together and she said, children, I want to tell you something.

We are not.

We're broke.

So definitely, I mean, definitely there's going to be

some lung possible issues here.

Okay.

So my patient is always struggling with money.

Money is it's like, oh yeah, my mom did that.

But you know, it's, you know, it, it, it's not me.

She's got all the money issues at most acupuncture SAB.

Ooh.

That was a strong statement.

Anyway,

I'm going to let that go by.

Yeah.

Well, you know, it's yeah, we're going to let that go by.

So for this, for this particular patient of mine, I mean, she

does have these money issues.

She's got these issues with worth and self-worth.

She's taking care of everybody else, but herself, because you know,

you got to take care of everybody.

Am I, am I looking at like a heart fire deficiency or am

I looking at a lung excess?

What, what might.

Yeah,

both of those are definitely possibilities.

One of the things I'm thinking about is maybe to supplement the kidney

like we were talking about before.

That's more self-love it sounds like everything's going out for her

money, love, everything like that.

So sometimes, and especially that type of patient, and that's just,

everything's going way too far out.

They don't think about themselves.

Then I will supplement the kidney for that kind of kitchen.

So I think definitely your first two ideas are definitely plausible, but, uh, from

my experience then supplementing kidney really helps these people really start

to pull energy back into themselves.

Got it.

I can see it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can see it that, wow.

Okay.

That's helpful.

Thank you.

What else might we see?

Let's just go back to the lung for a moment and give us, give us another,

you're saying shallow breathing, dry skin,

obese body.

Yeah, this will be spotty because that's the wet on the

inside and dry in the house.

If they were dry on the inside, they'd be skinnier.

Yeah.

Right.

That's that's definitely how the system thinks about it is like a

body site, a wet or dry body type driving really thin and wet being.

Okay, so this one, uh, the IX, you know, plenty of long energy.

Then we think about this as the banker, right.

That's got the three piece suit on, but it's kind of bulging a little bit.

It's got that real shallow breathing.

It's got plenty of money.

Everything's a little bit easy for him, but real dry skin and

just barely even breathing.

Uh, he's just so stuffed up with energy.

Can you see, can you see that one?

And then we pair that one with.

So again, long is tight.

Oh, excuse me.

We pair that with stomach and stomach, trying to keep track of this in my head.

We pair lung with stomach.

So again, don't have your head explode.

So stomach is young, meaning earth Yangming dryness or damnest.

So again, we've got the wet and dry dynamic going.

And then someone would extreme, uh, way too much stomach energy would

be really thin with moist skin.

Ah,

I had a patient like this yesterday.

Yeah.

Is that's what he is.

He had this here, like acne, this greasy skin thin and fit.

Yeah, that's perfectly matches this architect.

If he just was low on money, then it would be perfect.

How's this financial situation?

That patient,

well, I think he's doing okay.

He and his wife were both entrepreneurs and I, and I, it seems like

they've got their game together.

Okay.

It's in that textbook.

Yeah.

I mean, things are often not textbook, but I mean, it's, you

know, I mean, he drives a nice car.

I mean, he's driving a late model.

Nice Toyota.

SUV's doing okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, unless I'm, like I said, it's not textbook, but definitely

the body type, and this is another important point we should say for this

system that earth and metal, uh, phases, these are more, uh, like physical.

More fair, physical characteristics.

So physical characteristics would predominate over like financial situation.

Okay.

So we're looking at like, are they thin, are they fat?

Are they externally?

Are they wet?

Are they dry internally?

Are they wet?

Are they dry?

Yes.

That's important characteristics for this.

And then that mental, emotional, spiritual aspects.

That's less important for this.

Interesting.

All right.

Actually, I want to ask why that's the case, but that may not

even be inappropriate question.

I'm going to ask it anyway.

Why is that the

case?

I think it just baked into the system.

Uh, that's a great question for my teacher, but I think I told you

on the first podcast because my teachers and talk to me any more.

So if he ever, uh, deemed it fit to talk to me again, then

I'll, I'll ask him that question.

Cause I had that question myself.

Why?

But uh, I don't know.

It's just a feature of this.

Okay.

Feature the system.

Maybe I can go talk to your teacher.

How's

his English.

Uh, I think this is pretty decent, but the problem is he has a wandering monk,

so he could be anywhere in the world.

We don't even

know where he is.

Right.

I mean, that's classic for this system.

I mean, this system was, you know, it was like the attainment of a wandering monk.

Right,

right.

Yeah.

So, so he's still in that lineage.

So w when, when my teacher arrived in the monastery, right.

Uh, it was the first day.

Uh, he is ultimate teacher looked at him and said, I'll teach that one.

So this is a continuous monastic system for the last 400 years in

Korea.

Okay.

Ooh.

Well, you never know when you might run into a wandering monk,

that'll teach you some acupuncture,

right?

You never know you could be at your way for all.

We know.

If you get me, you could be stopping in this afternoon.

Well, I'll keep my eyes open.

You'll be dressed as a monk, Indiana.

He's got Korean features.

Then we keep your eyes out for

that.

There's a lot of those in St.

Louis,

easy to spot.

Stand out

like a sore thumb.

Uh, I'm in a small town here in Northern California.

And if it's hash 15 years ago or so when my teacher first came to visit and, uh,

nobody in this town knew much about like Buddhist monks or started being like that.

So they thought he was like a karate master or something.

Cause he had the robes on and everything.

Hey, are you related to David Carradine

reference for everyone up

here?

Okay.

Well, I think, I think we've gotten through the 12 archetypes haven't we?

Yeah,

it's definitely, uh, I tried to mentally keep that up in my

head and I think we, I think we did

well, I've been ticking them off here.

Okay.

I want to you host, well, I'm just trying to learn this dang stuff.

I'm just, you know, I'm on it.

Like a dang Honeybadger.

Great.

You know, like I told you before, it's been so helpful for me.

So I know it's a lot of effort to try and take on a new system or a

combination of old systems that you already know well, but clinically it's so

beneficial.

Well, I've seen some incredible results.

And in a moment, we're going to talk about some disasters too, but one of the things,

and we've had this conversation off offline, the way that it ties together.

Things that I already know.

And especially how it starts to create connections between places where I used

to look and go, how does that work?

When I start dialing this in, from this perspective pieces come together.

That, I mean, seriously, I've just been like hanging out

for years and years and years.

And now I start to see how those tentacles connect.

That for me is the really exciting thing about.

Yeah, I think it's a real strength of the system and something

we haven't even talked about yet is, um, like a lot of people that

know a lot about the aging, this, this ties into that system as well.

So we didn't really even discuss that today, but there's a whole

another aspect and, you know, taking into the egg, trigrams

putting that on the Oregon system.

So it gets pretty deep.

Oh, my God.

Okay.

I don't even want to think about that today, or my head will explode and we

need to finish this podcast, but you just opened up a whole new can of worms.

Thank you, Toby daily.

Yeah.

Well, you know, you're the one that said I should try to

get bored, but then you throw

that out.

Uh, yeah, maybe I take on this system.

I think your willingness to take on this system though.

I think that really does point to that your large intestine orientation.

You don't want to get bored.

So you take an a on a bottom of the system that appeals

to you, you know, this is, yeah.

Okay.

Yep.

All right.

You got my number.

Hey, but before we go away from art types here, there's a couple of times that you

have used some kind of a weather model.

And so we're while we're still doing art types, could we just run through each of

these Oregon's again and tell us about the weather report for that Oregon system.

We already know about the liver.

It's a nice, cool kind of foggy day in Northern California and the red one.

Right.

And so, you know, the pairing with that, his son, Joe,

so that's like clear bright day.

So liver signs Yao is, you know, the combination between men dark forest

and the clear, bright crystal clear day, you know, no cloud in the sky,

just everything really going well.

And my teacher also would say, it's almost like you have this completely

clear sun, and then you put a magnifying glass in front of it.

That point concentration.

That's what monks are always trying to do to get their mind

to that pinpoint concentration.

And then this gallbladder itself, that would be like crazy strong

wind, that outward wind that we were talking about, the aging.

So global is associated with like funder that trigram so like

just a lot of movement, a lot of sound, a lot of outward movement.

So call that it would be like a tight

yeah.

Pericardium again, is, has that a injury in inward wind, but with a

little bit of fire to, um, I'm not sure.

I don't have a really clear hematic aspect for the pericardium, the heart itself.

This is more a geography that a ShaoYin fire plus fire is more than.

Uh, like lava, you know, like, uh, like a big Island's having right

now in that big volcanic explosion.

Right.

Just say huge fire going out like that.

And then pairing with that urinary bladder, right.

Is that hold and this makes a lot of sense too.

I'm not sure we ever surfer or spend a lot of time in the.

I am not a surfer, but I've spent a lot of time in water.

I love water.

I've sailed quite a bit.

Okay.

So you know this, when you in the water, right?

I didn't realize this.

I was a surfer as a young kid, and I never could understand you would go

to the bathroom just before you get out in Northern California here, just

before you go in and surf and you just immediately have to pee in your wetsuit.

I just never could understand that.

And so I studied Chinese medicine, right?

This is the Taiyang that cold water really activates.

Yeah,

so that that's, that's cold water, you know, really cold water

day, you know, you're at the ocean and it's just really, you know, that

gets into your bones kind of cold.

Bam, I think about that climate for the bladder.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking of the Pacific Northwest, uh, coast line or

the Oregon, Oregon coastline.

That's where I'm in.

Yeah, that co you know, that cold damp, and you go to the beach,

not to, you know, Sunday, but just to expose yourself to that cold.

Damn.

Okay.

So now we are sort of last track of rest.

Okay.

So maybe let's do small intestines.

So that's fire and water.

So I, I'm not sure about that.

I mean that, that's such a strong contradiction.

I'm not sure how that is climatically and same with the

kidney with a fire and water.

I'm not sure exactly how that would manifest in my mind.

My teacher didn't emphasize.

Again, those are a lot more like mental, social, spiritual kind of things.

Okay.

All right.

Oh, wait a minute.

You know what?

Wait, I can't, I can't let that go.

Okay.

So mental, social, spiritual kind of things.

Can you fill that in just a little bit?

Yeah, but this is what I was telling you about for the system, right?

Like, uh, metal and earth for more like physical, structural things and fire and.

Water for more

spiritual things.

Okay.

All right.

You really making me a strain on this?

Uh, like I said, I eventually all of these, you know,

everything we're discussing.

Becomes part of you, and then you can just treat it in clinic.

When we talk about, I really have to kind of stretch back into the

theory aspect of it.

Well, I mean, this is great.

I mean, I'm just bringing you my confusion.

So it's probably not your confusion.

You're just bumping up against my confusion.

Sorry.

It's

definitely my condition because I've got a, I gotta lay it out clearly.

So you're gonna understand for me, it is really like, it's really congealed

into like, just images, right?

So, um, I have to stop and really think about what goes into this.

So let's talk about that spleen.

Right?

So that's just like mud, right?

In my mind.

That's that's um, you know, that this is just dampers, right?

That heaviness of mud, and then a large intestine, you know, the

Perry one, this is like a, the young mean, like the mountain, right.

They're really dry mountain, high mountain hearing.

Right.

It's just really dry up there.

So.

That's definitely the climate for that.

And it's cool.

Yeah.

Right.

Cool.

So we're talking about dry and cool.

So it'd be like high mountain high dry mountain rather than like

high, hot desert high, hot, dry

desert.

Right, exactly.

Former dry.

So, so it is a mountain.

Okay.

Yeah.

Got it.

Is that the trigram as well?

Oh, okay.

Well, there it is.

Boom.

Well, we're not,

you said mountain.

Yeah.

That's where all these things come from.

Right?

Like we started talking about that with called veteran thunder to

talk about.

So a long what's, uh what's what's the weather forecast for the lung.

Yeah.

Th that's a good question.

So that's, um, I can wet and dry.

I think about, you know, more like a physical body with that.

I'm not sure, but I know about climate, a wet, dry combination,

like that, maybe a really dry area with fog or something like that.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure about that.

And same thing with stomach do with that mix.

I don't have this as a clear image for that for climate.

Okay.

Well, good.

There's there's things that all of us can work on it and having

a pointer in these directions.

I mean, I think we all have our own images.

When it lands for us when we go, oh, I think this is that when I've got it right.

Cause you'll see it everywhere.

Right.

You'll see it everywhere.

And then once you start using these point combinations in clinic, right.

You just see this over and over again, these kind of patterns.

Right.

And it's just, it's so clear, you know what you need to do,

so.

Okay, great.

Good.

I feel pretty settled with that.

So the one last thing I want to do before we, uh, Say goodbye for today

is, uh, talk a little bit about, I mean, you, you know, you were saying

this is an all in kind of treatment.

You can do amazing things can happen and things can really go off the rails.

So I remember you saying that in the first interview that we did and my

clinical experiences, holy smokes.

Toby Daley was not kidding because I've seen some things really go sideways.

So my first question is what are some of the things that we can look for?

I mean, it for you, it's very easy, very quickly, cause you've done it so

long to go, oh yeah, that was wrong.

You can see it quickly.

But for those of us that are learning to tune our senses to seeing what

what's gone wrong, or if something's gone wrong, what are some of the

basic things that we can look at?

Well, I mean, I think just anything that goes

wrong with the patient, right?

There's suddenly more agitated that phase color changes, and they're really unhappy.

Uh, you know, just from using any acupuncture system, you can really

tell if you're really nailed or not.

The patient just settles into the table and everything seems to just go so well,

there's like a stillness and a quiet in the room or something like that.

But usually with this system, if, if you're wrong, it's not very.

Um, I'm thinking about that.

The patient, I wrote about it in the journal, when I was first learning

this system, she had really cold hands.

So I thought, oh, this is so easy.

I'll just supplement the heart and bring a whole bunch of fire there

and to help with those cold hands.

But later on, I realized that, I mean, it was just from obstruction.

She didn't have the cold hands.

It wasn't, she didn't really have.

She wasn't really fire deficient.

She just wasn't able to get heat into her hands, but she had plenty of heat act up.

So when I added, when I supplemented hard for her, you know, she had

palpitations and I'm not sure if she was sweating or something, but she

was just incredible heat sensations.

And.

Right there on the table.

And that, you know, it was just a young practitioner at the time.

So I thought, wow, this is really working or something,

you know, it just totally wrong.

She got off the table.

It didn't need to sleep at all the next night.

So I mean, if it's a fire condition and you add more fire to it, especially double

firing, like this system takes up all of the checks and just really supplements.

Uh, you'll know right away that you've made a mistake, but the nice thing about

the system is then it's got a safety check on it too, because then as soon

as I saw that patient again, I saw actually the patient next day because

she hadn't slept the whole night before.

And, uh, she was a medical doctor too.

So.

Early case I thought, well, really impressed.

This middle doctor, a little chart of the power back,

you showed her.

She really got to see the acupuncture, but anyways, so then

I had to come back the next day and then supplemented a urinary bladder

just to counterbalance all that.

And actually what happened is she felt much better right away.

And then it ended up helping her hands ultimately to.

Anyways, just keep in mind.

If you use this as an Eni, the patient will let you know right

away, it's a mistake and then use the, uh, the counterbalancing

channel and then bring that

right back into balance.

Okay.

And, and as I recall, you said, do it on the other side, don't do it

on the side that you've done to.

Okay.

Am I correct?

In my thinking here that.

Kidney or heart or spleen or stubble.

Uh, is it large intestine?

I'm blanking, but, but the ones that are double something like double fire,

double water, double dryness, double moisture, you get that one wrong.

You're probably going to see it sooner and more clearly than

where you've got like the small intestine where it's water and it's.

Right.

There's already a little bit of balance built into it.

So is it, is this a helpful rule of thumb that if it's a double

something, be extra cautious.

Yeah, definitely just be on the lookout for definite great things

are definite bad things when you're right with the double ones, because

yeah, they're really imbalanced.

And then the 40 year old technique itself, right.

I mean, takes away any checks in the body and really supplements them other aspects.

So you're really going all the way in when you use those four needles.

So you've got to make sure it's right.

I haven't really made much mistakes with say like squalene and large

intestine, because it's so obvious.

Right.

But someone's so.

And try to scan right.

Yeah, it would be hard to make a mistake at B's first.

And then suddenly I think, well, I'll just add spleen to it.

You know, I just, I wouldn't do that, but you're right.

That the double, the ones that double up the qualities yet, but

that's, that's much more dynamic.

This was one of my off the rails is I had that

spleen person she's obese.

She's bored.

She's wet.

And, and I slipped, I slipped in my thinking because I went, oh,

well, her spleen is a problem.

We need to tonify that.

Right.

I was like, I suddenly like slipped into like my TCM thing.

It's like, oh yeah, I've got a ton of fight that spleen and, and, uh, macchiato

was

speaking in your ear.

Oh man.

Well, not just my children, but you know, a bunch of people.

Right.

But I mean, this is, this is where it's so easy to kind of go, you know,

it's like, oh, I kind of got it.

Yeah, there it is.

And then without even recognizing, oh, treatment principle completely wrong,

right?

Yeah.

And she got off the table.

She goes, am I supposed to feel kind of nauseous?

I'm not having that before.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean that definitely, you will never do that again.

So, uh, that, that's, that's a nice learning thing, but you can see.

So for her case, right, she already had someone's dampness and then

plus double band, is it really.

Yup.

Yup.

It's true.

Really does.

So, all right.

Well, Toby, anything else that you'd like to share with?

I mean, you already gave us a lot.

Holy smokes.

I'm going to complete masterclass in an hour, but any closing

thoughts before we wind this down?

I

think that's plenty and I really want you to get bored.

So I definitely don't want to tell you the

all right.

My friend.

Well, thanks so much for, uh, sitting down with me to talk about all this.

I, I feel a little more confident going back into the clinic and, uh, you know,

you listeners out there, Toby, what?

I mean, if they've got questions, what should they do?

Look for a wandering monk?

What, what, what should they do?

Gotcha.

You've seen the wandering mug.

Let me know about it.

All the listeners out there.

My teacher's name is dwell.

Uh, if you, if you run across that and wondering, please tell him that

I still need a lot of guidance.

So get in contact with me.

I think a great place to start is that journal of Chinese medicine article.

I think you'll link to this.

Isn't it's a great, everything's just laid out really quick.

Especially combined that article with these two podcasts.

I, I think people can really get started.

Okay, great.

I'll catch up with you next time.

Thank you.

Well, friends, I hope you found that to be helpful.

I know that having Toby guide me through some of these clinical cases

has been of great benefit to me.

So if you like this kind of thing here in qiological.

How can you help tell your friends, share a good thing with them?

Thanks again for