Humans have the opportunity to imagine a better future and weave new stories into our culture. By embracing the uncertainty and ambiguity inherent in life, we can start the journey towards a world we’re proud to leave for future generations.

Through poetry and storytelling, we can create a narrative arc that inspires hope and encourages action in the face of the converging crises of our time. It is a time for problem-solving and collective growth, as we navigate the challenges and strive for positive change.

This is part one of a two-part conversation with writer, poet, and storyteller, Richard Wain, who’s recently released a book of poetry titled Beyond the Brink is the Beginning.

Richard's writing explores the concept of "thrutopia": a vision for a better future. He’s part of a community of writers and thinkers who are committed to weaving new stories into culture and envisioning a world that future generations can be proud of.

In this episode, Richard discusses his inspiration for the book and the importance of imagination in addressing the converging crises of our time. Stay tuned for part two of the conversation, in which Richard shares some of his poetry and the inspiration behind it.

Links

• Other episodes of Peripheral Thinking
• The caterpillar's poetry: a tale of transformation and creative expression – Episode 17 with Richard Wain
• The Web of Meaning – Episode 1 with Jeremy Lent
• Beyond the Brink is the Beginning – Richard’s book of poetry
• Why we need thrutopia – Manda Scott
• From What Is to What If: Unleashing the Power of Imagination to Create the Future We Want, by Rob Hopkins

Hello there.

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking, uh, my series of conversations with, uh,

activists, artists, entrepreneurs, advisors, people all working on ideas,

championing ideas at the margins.

'Cause the ideas which will shape the mainstream tomorrow are hiding

out there today on those margins.

Uh, now this conversation is another two-parter.

It's with, uh, Richard Wayne, uh, who is a writer, a poet, a

storyteller, a a many, many things.

And actually I spoke to Richard previously, uh, on the podcast,

so do check that conversation out.

This conversation is because, uh, Richard has a book out in the world and

it's actually a book, a book of poetry.

Um, but I say that with a, uh, with a health warning, although

he probably wouldn't, uh, suggest it needs a health warning.

And I say it because actually a conversation we had at the end of our

recording was, um, me sharing that.

I actually, I feel a lot of sort of, uh, resistance to poetry.

I don't know whether it was kind of bullied into me at school that

somehow poetry wasn't for me, or I didn't have the concentration

for poetry, or I didn't understand poetry, or I couldn't write poetry.

Um, so I kind of, uh, have a little bit of that story rumbling

around in the background.

Uh, and I kind of offered that up at the beginning because I.

I don't get that with Richard's writing.

Um, it feels much more kind of present and accessible and important.

Uh, and so I was kind of hugely glad to have the opportunity to speak to Richard.

Uh, and like I said, this is gonna be in two parts.

Actually.

The first part takes us up to a point of, um, a kind of feeling

o of a, of a precipice actually takes us to an edge of a precipice.

Richard was talking about, you know, his own life, feeling that there's been

this kind of journey to a precipice.

Uh, where as is the case with a precipice, you know, there's some.

Giant ledge.

There's some fall, there's some big change.

And that, that big fall, that change feeling quite uncertain.

And this was very much in the context of um, you know, the converging crises of our

time, be they climate, be it biodiversity loss and what that might mean for the,

the world that our children might inherit and what that might mean for us, uh, and

that precipice really being something which is felt by many, many people.

So in this first part of the episode, we talk a little bit about some of

the inspiration behind the book, some of the reason for writing the book,

the reason for writing the poetry, uh, some really great stuff in there.

And, you know, this journey to the precipice that many people are feeling.

Maybe you are feeling too.

Um, so, um, on that, I'll leave you with episode one.

Richard, welcome back to Peripheral Thinking.

it's a genuine pleasure.

Thank you for having me back.

Uh, Ben, very much appreciate being here.

Um, now very looking forward to, very much looking forward

to this, this conversation.

So there is a specific reason we're having this conversation now.

Uh, although it is always good to have a conversation with you, as we've

just used up about 36 minutes of our kind of available recording time,

just having a sort of preamble chat.

So, uh, I hope we can bring some of the, the goodness of that to our conversation.

But, um, the, the specific reason that, uh, was a good opportunity to,

to reconnect today is, uh, you have a little gift into the world, which is

just finding its way into the world.

Is that right?

That's correct.

Yeah.

I have a, uh, book out in, uh, on the 17th of November actually.

And, uh, the book is called Beyond the Brink is the Beginning.

Uh, it's a collection of, uh, poetry and, um, I'm sure we'll

talk about it, uh, as we go.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Excellent.

So, um, yeah, I mean, maybe take us back.

Take us back a, a step.

So, uh, how and why this little book into the world now?

So, A, a couple of years ago, actually, in the midst of all the shenanigans

of, um, of, of, of Covid, uh, I was exploring various routes into, um, in,

into spending more time on, on writing.

And I came across, uh, amongst other things, um, a, a term

that I was interested in, which was the term thrutopia.

And I'd never read this term anywhere.

It, it was a, a, a term that was coined by a chap called Rupert Reed.

Um, and it, it had been adopted by, uh, an author called Manda Scott,

who uh, Manda wrote a bestselling series of, of novels, uh, uh, called

the Boudica series a few years back.

And she's written crime novels and, and she's, you know, uh, uh, um,

a really kind of renowned author.

And she had, uh, kind of.

Had a, a change of direction and, and, and decided to start a small holding

and to, uh, stop writing these, this series of successful books and, and to,

to, to go off on a, on a different tack.

And she had, uh, come up with this idea around, thrutopia that this was

a vision for, for a better future.

And, and, and she, uh, stated in the information that I read initially about

thrutopia, this idea that what we need as, uh, writers, what needs to be the

focus of our, um, efforts as writers, is to write clear and engaging roots

through to a world that we'd all be proud to leave for future generations.

Now this, this really, really struck me as being, uh, a great, a great thought.

She'd effectively looked at the, the, the world around her, the, the, the world of

storytelling that she was immersed in, and realize that we're telling ourselves

stories that are largely dystopian.

Um, and we live in a culture in which our expectations are, are.

We know that our expectations and our, um, way of, of, of viewing,

uh, the the past, present future are very much wrapped up in story.

Um, you know, we, we have, we all have our narratives, and if

the narratives around us are.

Effectively telling us that the future is gonna be bleak and that we are

gonna fail in our, kind of quest to resolve these many crises that we're

we're currently facing, there's a good chance that we'll, uh, make that happen

effectively by, by, by not having the, uh, imaginative bridge to take us to

a better world in which we succeed.

And so thrutopiaiaia is this, uh, this idea that we can do that, that we can,

that we can move to a better world.

So how?

How, what stories can we tell that move us from here to the world that we would be

proud to, to leave to future generations?

So anyway, I read about this, found out, found out about it, got engaged in a, a

really fascinating, uh, masterclass that re that, that, that kind of went deep

into this stuff and, and met a whole bunch of people through this process.

People including, uh, Jeremy Lent, who is the, the author of the Patenting

Instinct and the Web of Meaning.

Um, people like Rob Hopkins, um, who, who's, uh, a big kind of foundation

part of the transition movement.

And he wrote a, a, a great book called WI What is to What If, um, people with, with

incredible vision, uh, and who are, who are truly engaged in trying to work out

what this future looks like, that we are proud to leave for future generations.

So we, I was immersed in this for, uh, a number of months, um,

really the best part of a year.

Um, it formed a, a, a, a really great group of, uh, a

community of writers around it.

And, um, it led me to feel like I needed to make a contribution to this effort.

And, um, and, and the book is, is, uh, my first contribution to this effort.

Um, so yeah, just one thing.

So Jeremy, actually, Jeremy Lent is also the, the kind of the,

the, the reason for this podcast.

Um, 'cause when in his book, in the Web of Meaning, his second book, he talks at the

end of that about, uh, you know, as the systems on which we've depended crumble,

people increasingly looking around for new story and that we all have an opportunity

to help weave new story into culture.

And I, in now in a similar way, as you just sort of articulated, I kind of

actually that is something I can help do.

Like, not, this doesn't need to be a grand thing.

It doesn't need to be, it is like just the act of, in fact, of us just

having this conversation and one person listening to it that helps kind

of weave new story into culture too.

So, uh, the give it this, the kind of will to contribute by way of response is

something which, which resonates for me.

Yeah.

Well, I, I, I think, you know, hearing someone with Jeremy's, uh, you know,

he, he's an an incredibly intelligent guy and he's thought about these things,

uh, for a very long time, much longer than, than than I, and, and been able

to express them in ways that have connected with many, many, many people.

And, and I think you, you, you know, you really hit on something

there because it, it's nothing to do with volume of response.

It's to do with depth of response, I think.

It's to do with finding, if somebody listens.

Somebody has a reaction and it takes somebody in the direction of feeling,

okay, yeah, that speaks to me.

I'm on that path, or I understand that path, or I want to go, go down that

route, that that's, uh, an amazing thing, you know, that in terms of the.

That interwoven, that interconnected, um, idea that we,

we have, we have a problem here.

We have a numerous problems here, a number of interconnected crises that

can only really be resolved through a massive, cultural shift, a massive

shift in the way that systems work, a massive shift in the way that we

interact with one another and, uh, the, the, the place that that comes from.

Um, and that takes everyone to start leaning into stories like this and

to start trying to tell the kind of story that I, that I mentioned in

terms of something that leaves a really positive feeling about, about the

potential for humanity at this point.

So is part of the, the sort of seed for this was the seed for this born

out of the kind of a, a rumbling discontent and unease, a dis-ease?

Yeah, so on a number of levels, um, I, uh, have had a rumbling discontent with,

with my own sort of, uh, working life for pretty much the whole of my career.

Um, un un really unexplored, but just a sense that, uh, there's something

else I need to be doing here.

Um, I, I've also had a connection with the climate crisis to an extent

in the sense that, and we will have, but professionally, my career started

as a a, um, a scientist working in a laboratory where, uh, that they, they

had at the time the largest academic supercomputer in the, in the country.

So it's a big, big supercomputer running climate simulations and ocean simulations.

And finding that in 20, 30, 40 years time, the oceans are gonna be massively

more salty than they were at that time, 25 years ago when I was doing it.

Uh, or finding that the, the level of, of heating in, in the world

that we could expect in 25, 30 years time, potentially was radically

higher than than anyone had, had, had previously conceived that it might be.

So, the seeds of anxiety around the climate crisis were very much kind of,

uh, there at that, at that point in my, in my life, but I didn't know what

I, I couldn't do anything about that.

It's too big a problem.

And I wasn't a very good scientist, so I, I needed to, I needed to get out of that.

Um, but it's there always there in the back of my head.

Yeah, absolutely.

A simmering, discontent, a simmering sense that we've got, we've gotta

do something different here, guys, but who am I talking to?

You know, how am I, how am I really engaging with, with telling a story

that's gonna help people to, uh, to, to, to also en engage with that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and so just, uh, for, for kind of context, uh, so Jeremy, people can

listen to the conversation with Jeremy.

'cause it talks a little bit about some of his, his kind of views of the

things that we might be navigating, you know, all, all alternative avenues

we might be navigating towards.

Uh, I'm, I'm not really familiar with, uh, Rob Hopkins' sort of ideas.

Do you feel qualified to give us a, just a headline of, of those?

Because I'm just kind of interested in the, the kind of context of, of kind

where your writing points to maybe if, if indeed it does point there.

So I think Rob, uh, he's, he's coming at, at it from an angle of imagination

as well in, in the sense that, you know, the, the, the sort of, um, key idea in,

in his book, what is to, what if anyway, is, is that very much of the, the kind

of discourse around climate change or around, um, around many of the, the,

the, the crises that we face, you know, biodiversity and climate and climate

crises are the, the, the ones that sort of resonate with me the most at the moment,

um, the issue is that we are looking at them from the perspective of what is.

So not an imaginative journey into what we, what potential we could

find to do things better, but what is the current norm and how can we

somehow break that or change that?

Now if, if you start from the idea that.

all I have to work with is what is, then you are very much limited

in the, the different avenues that you can take to solve a problem.

Uh, and, and, and Rob is, is effectively saying, we need to

put ourselves in a what if space.

So it's an imaginative space.

It's a playful space.

It's somewhere where you enjoy being, somewhere where you want

to be, where you are creating.

And you are, um, you are, you are looking at the problems in your locality in

particular and going, well, what if in my village, um, we were to, uh, what if

on my street we were to start sharing, uh, food, um, what would that look like?

What, what if, what if I was to, uh, send a message to my neighbors to say, all

right, my, my car is openly available now to, to any of you to, to use?

All of those kind of questions that come from going, well, what if we

just break down that convention?

What if we break down a convention of ownership?

What if we break down a convention of, uh, where our food comes from?

What, what, you know, what if we look at that in a completely different way and

then, you know, the, the potential for solutions grows exponentially because

you're not limiting yourself to what is.

Um, uh, I I, I'm sure, I'm sure Rob would, uh, curse me for that summary,

but I think that's more or less where, where he, where he is coming from.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I, I can sort of feel the hopefulness in that, um,

that as a, as a kind of, as a, as a lens, as a perspective.

Yeah.

Well, I, I think that the, when I'm in, when I'm in a a, a positive place,

I feel like what a time to be alive.

What an incredible time to be alive when we get to face the biggest kind

of collective challenges possibly that humanity has or will ever face.

We, we get to do that.

Um, very, very few people will get to have that kind of, uh, of, of problem to solve.

And actually, we are problem solving beings.

That's what we do.

We, we, we love getting into how to, how to sort these

thing, these kind of things out.

And it's not easy to see the joy in something that causes so much, uh,

so much pain and, and suffering.

But there is joy in working together in, in difficult situations to,

to to, to find a way through.

You know, that's where most growth and, um, uh, development I think for, for,

for individuals and for communities, that's where it comes from, is in

striving to, uh, to get over barriers.

And, and this is the biggest barrier we'll ever we're ever

gonna have to get over, you know?

So, um, I, I think that's, again, I think that's sort of where Rob

Rob's coming from is here we have a chance to imagine a better future.

Um, it's not a chance to mend the broken past.

It's a chance to imagine a better future.

Wouldn't we rather do that?

And of course the, the kind of requirement there is a, a

willingness and an ability to act.

You know, I can't that sort of classic old sort of cliched stroke proverb, uh,

which I'll now kind of bastardize and sort of turn into one, the, the kind

of idea of, uh, you can only sort of start where you are, you know, and I

don't, I know there was that really a journey of a thousand steps, whatever.

But it's something, something about sort of starting where you are in a sense.

And actually the where you are bit is uncertain, is ambiguous, and is unnerving.

And actually part of, you know, the reason that, you know, our kind of

our will, our wish to go to the kind of what is and fixing a what is, is

an attempt to try and just fix it.

Because actually that helps me not go well actually maybe the

start point here is the ambiguity.

Maybe the start point is the uncertainty.

Maybe the start point is a kind of open-hearted kind of turning into,

okay, we don't know, so what if?

You know, but actually it does, it requires us in a way

to sort of start that journey.

Which comes back to the, the, the quote that you were talking

about, um, that, that madda had.

It, it in a sense our ability to, to, um, to, to kind of create something that

we're kind of leaving for future just does require us to honestly, openly sort

of step into this uncertain place and let that be the beginning of the journey.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Um, the, the, I couldn't have put it better myself then.

Okay.

So your, so your writing kind of bubbles up from, from this place.

It is a, a response from, from these, these things.

And, um, so yeah.

So, uh, tell us a little bit about the, about the, the writing, and I'm curious

about the, the process of writing a book, but that might be a conversation

from a whole podcast, but I, I could just get you tell us a little bit about,

about the, the writing and, and, yeah.

So what, what I, uh, the, the, the, what I tend to write is poetry.

So, uh, effectively I am a poet.

Um, and what I.

Like to try and do is to form some kind of narrative arc around, uh,

a series of, of, of, of poems.

So while it's a, a, a, in effect, a disconnected set of, of individual

poems that are written at different times for different purposes and with

different, different themes and also, you know, different motivators and,

and, and inspiration behind them.

How can you turn that into something that has its own narrative arc

and feel of, um, of a journey?

And an emotional journey and something that resolves emotionally in a,

in a, in a way that's satisfying.

Um, so what I was looking to do in, in the case of, of this book, Beyond

the Brink of the Beginning, is to take that idea, that core idea of,

um, of, of, of moving through to a world that we'd be, uh, we'd all be

proud to lead for future generations.

And thinking, well, what do I need in order to be able to engage with that?

What, what, what am I lacking that, um, that would help me to be able

to step towards that idea of, uh, imagination and engaging with, um,

with, with telling stories that lead to a, a, a better future?

And my sense, my sense was very much that I am on the edge of something.

I am on the edge of a, of a, of some kind of, um, of a, a, a precipice that I think

is, is what your, um, statement earlier on of, you know, did, did this bubble

up from, um, a sense of a disenchantment with, um, with, with things in general?

The answer to that very much is yes, but my sense from talking to many, many

people and many, many different walks of life and, and, um, coming across,

uh, lots of people through business, through um, networks, through writing,

through all kinds of things, is that most people that I speak to feel like

they're on the edge of something.

I think when you talk beyond, uh, the, beyond the level

of, um, how are you today?

Uh, should we go and have a drink?

Um, that kind of pub level of chat.

When, when you start talking about how do you, how do you feel about the future?

How do you feel about the prospects for your kids?

How do you feel about what you are gonna do next in life?

And most people that you speak to start to say things like, Oh, well, you know,

it's just so, it's so uncertain now.

Um, I really don't have any clue.

Um, and I don't really, I don't really see the, the benefit of putting too

much of a, a plan ahead because, you know, everything's gonna change anyway.

Just a general sense in which many people are, are, are un.

Rooted in this moment and, and feel a sense of helplessness.

And, and yeah, that manifests itself in, in just, uh, everyone saying so everyone's

saying, yeah, I feel, I feel like I'm, I'm not really in control of it, and I don't

really know what to do, particularly in relation to the, the, the climate crisis.

You know, I, I run the Positive Nature Network.

We have conversations with businesses.

The most common, the most common question is, Well, what, what can I do?

How can I help?

I'm, I'm just, you know, effectively I am such a small part of, of this whole world.

I'm such a small part of this, um, potential, how can I do anything in a

circumstance where, uh, where apparently this, this, uh, climate crisis is, is

gonna have such devastating impacts?

Um, I, I feel helpless.

And, and that feeling of helplessness, I think is, is what, uh, tends to bring

people towards a sense of, if not despair, a sense of something needs to change.

Um, and, and that is really where, you know, the, the, the root of the,

the writing for this book and that the, the question that it's sort of

got at its heart is, Well, what does it feel like to reach that point,

to realize other people are there and then to move beyond it together?

What does that feel like?

Um, not how do we do it, but what does it feel like?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I really like that.

So I'm gonna come back to the, the, the, what does it feel like, and it

is interesting that the, the kind of that building to a precipice

or wandering to a precipice.

And the reason I was kind of asking a question, I was kinda curious,

you know, I guess some people, um, they are sort of familiar with that

enough to sort of articulate in the way that you sort of spoken of

Oh, uncertain, don't really know.

And for other people there, you know, uh, there is just, you

know, a kind of felt discontent.

There is a loneliness, there is despair.

There is, we, one of the conversations we were having just before call

it there is burnout, you know, these ideas, which is essentially

people saying, uh, I don't know.

And I was talking to, uh, a friend yesterday and it sort of

articulated, it's like, I don't, I know it can't go on like this, but

I don't know what the other option.

And then obviously we kind of articulate those things from here,

I'm kind of pointing to myself.

Uh, you know, we, we kind of, we, we articulate these things from the place

of here, from me, from my sort of life, from my heart, my way of being,

from my work, whatever it may be.

And in a sense, you know, that is a, another way that these things kind of

present for people is just this kind of feeling actually, you know, and like you

say, in a sense, when it bubbles to a despair, that is, you know, in the, uh,

not that I, uh, it, it, it kind of, it, the bubbling to a despair is the, is a

point of action, isn't it, essentially.

I mean, that, that is, that is a, that is a prompt, a trigger, a reason then to act.

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

The bubbling to despair, the bubbling to anger, the, the, the acknowledgement of

the fact that there's some oscillation between, between hope and despair.

That something is, that something is, uh, inherently not going the way

that I thought it was going to go.

In life.

Uh, and that's, and that's a, a feeling that can be bound up in,

in personal, uh, circumstances.

But, but I think increasingly it's a feeling that is wider than that for

people because, um, you know, I, I, my own personal experience with having

children with, uh, seeing the world around me change in various ways.

Um, with, uh, you know, places that I know coming under pressure from, uh, from,

from, from, um, climate related events, uh, you know, flooding and various things.

When you see these things, it's, it Connects with you more and more.

And you, you start to realize that, oh, my, my kids' futures are at stake.

Um, you know, many people I know in many different places around the

world, their futures are at stake.

And, uh, 10 years ago I wouldn't have thought that.

And in 10 years ago, in 10 years time, that pressure will be greater.

And, uh, I know that.

And I think in, I think that instinctively many people know that,

even if that's not the conversation that they're having with themselves,

um, the, the sense of a growing.

Discontent, a sense of a growing pressure that is difficult to resolve.

there's got to be a way for, uh, us to find a unified way outta that.

I hoped you liked that conversation, uh, with Richard.

And, uh, as I said, we're going to, there's gonna be a part two and so I

invite you back to check out part two.

And if you like part one and, uh, you think that some of the things that

we spoke about in there would kind of resonate or would be, uh, welcome to hear

from other people, please share, that is what we, uh, what we want from this.

That is the community that we are trying to build.

If you think that somebody else would benefit from listening to

this, please do share it with them.

Uh, until next time, uh, thank you and do chat back and listen to part two of

the conversation with Richard, where we get into some of the beauty, the

inspiring beauty of the book itself.

Until next time, thank you and goodnight.